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Message no. 1
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: willingness to get bio/cyber
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 07:21:44 +0000
and thus did M. Sean Martinez speak on 24 Jul 98 at 14:06:

> Under the pedestrain contact it states that 99% of the population is
> uncybered. It was a shock to me as well, but I could see it.

Damn, you're right. Must have been a slip up or poetic license, since
the say in cybertech that data jacks are so common that no-one
notices them anymore.

John Szeto, can you give us some more info about the number of
cybered people in 2050-60 please? Pretty please?? :)


Martin Steffens
(chimerae@***.ie)
-----------------
Hey Butt-Head, what did people do before they invented TV?
Don't be stupid, Beavis. There's always been TV, there's just more channels now.
Message no. 2
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: willingness to get bio/cyber
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 07:21:44 +0000
and thus did Erik Jameson speak on 24 Jul 98 at 13:13:

(this is getting a very long lasting thread, I wonder if we're
getting close to being listed the RN-book of records :)
Also good that I'm an insomniac so I got some extra time to answer
these mails in the morning)

> Not much lopping, but some might say significant mauling.

ST p.6: "Because of the intrinsically organic nature of bioware,
implantation is a relatively simple process". I always figured that
the use of nanites would surgery far less invasive and would cut down
on the recovery time. If you go for a bio-mod the only think they
might do to you is inject you with a bunch of nanites, the little
buggers do their job and die, the doc monitors the recovery and
integration and off your go. Compare surgery 60 years ago to that of
today and then add another 60.
60 years ago there was no or hardy any cosmetic surgery, now you can
find those body shops everywhere, and it's getting more acceptable to
go for it. Add 60 years and it might be as common as buying a car.
Getting a nose job done and recovering from it takes less than a day
in 2060. How long does it take now, a week or so?

> >memory, math-spu (obligatory for accountants)
> See, there you go actually. Adding cyberware is a competitive advantage in
> many instances. It's not that people necessarily *want* that datajack or
> Math SPU, it's that they feel they *have* to have it to remain competitive,
> to retain that edge, regardless of what else that 'ware might do to them.

Getting a competitive edge from cyber can be seen in multiple ways by
the subject. The first guy who gets it shows of his gadget, the
others who watch him crunching out number like mad (as an example)
might think he's nuts, most of them will get worried and jealous. You
forget that jealousy is one of the most powerful motives to buy
something (and one that the buyer never admits). So mrs Colleague
suddenly feels the need to get one too, and rationalizes it by
writing it off as competitive edge. Once mrs C. gets her first piece
installed, she realizes that it is pretty wizz and does make her
live a lot easier, so the step for the next piece gets a lot easier
(depending on how heavy it hit her bank account of course :). In a
week or so mrs C. will be using her Math SPU to crunch out how long
it would take her to pay off an encephalon and how jealous it would
make her colleagues (rationalized way to say it: how the implant
would give her a competitive edge, and the costs will be returned
once I get that promotion).

Then there's of course a who group of techno-gadgeteers who's
cybermania is only stopped by their credsticks. I'm thinking here
specifically of deckers who spend most of their time out of their
body already anyway. I figured that deckers will hardly care what
happened to their bodies, so will have less qualms of stashing it out
with mods, specifically the ones that make their VR-trips so more
wizzer (read effective).

> Given the choice, I'm not sure many people at all would opt to go under the
> knife. I think most folks, even in the shadows, feel obligated to do it
> just so they can do their job at least good enough not to get fired.

I think that you project your own opinion of modifications onto the
2060's and forget about the 60 years in between in which people got
more and more used to operations for the sake of cosmetic or
improvement. generations who grew up with the cyber available. It
might have been something like the computer age; kids picking the
stuff up rather easily, and adults generally loathe to try it.
In general I see 7 classes of behaviour in 2060 ranging from
very anti to pro (if any of the terms sounds offensive, it's not
meant that way, it's for lack of a better word).

1. is the group of magically active people. They're not happy with
cyber and most of them will never have a piece. their attitude to bio
is roughly the same, or might be less adverse.

2. The "my body is a temple" group. In this group also fall very
likely post-new-agers, the elves of the Tir (barring some),
technophobes, and generally people who don't want to have something
stuck in their body unless it's absolutely necessary.

3. The "Well if I have to..." group. People that don't particulary
like the idea, but feel that they need to, or are put under pressure
to get an implant. These people won't go very far (max 1 essence),
but some of them might move to groups above and below depending on
the results of the mod. Also these people might see bioware as a more
acceptable option and have a group 4 attitude towards those mods.

4. The "I don't care, but don't overdo it please" group. These people
are quite content to go for mods, but prefer to be selective in the
type and magnitude of implants they get. They do worry about the
effects of too much cyber, but the positive sides or other factors
overwhelm the negative feelings.

4a. "I would love to, but I hate hospitals". A sub category of
people who could effectively be in group 2, 3 or 4. they don't worry
about the effect, but do not like the operation or the fact that
someone's cutting in their body. Once they're convinced either that
the operation is painless they move to group 3, 4, or 5. but
any negative experience might firmly put them in group 2.

5. "Here's my credstick, gimmie al that I can buy, but leave some
of me, please". Techno freaks, gadget lovers, etc. etc. They only
look at the positive end results and don't worry to much about the
road there, as long as the cred's still holding out. They are however
aware of the negative sides and try to cut it as close as possible
without losing too much (suggested to stop implanting around 2
essence).

6. "What's the limit? Okay, go there as close as possible". Around
this stage it gets a bit scary. the people who go to this stage are
not worried about losing their humanity, so that either indicates
some serious emotional problems, extreme paranoia or another suitable
disorder, or just a very cold hearted person.

7. "When you're done, I don't want to see any flesh anymore". These
people willingly give up everything, including live, to get cybered
to the max (we're talking cyber zombie volunteers here). No normal
person would do that, so we have group 6 to the power 2 attitudes
here.

Note that your fully cybered sammie might be having a group 3
attitude, but the pressure from the competition might make him
believe that he's forced to go further than he wants to. Bioware
might be regarded as more acceptable (group +1) or similar in effect,
depending on the person's reasons.

Frankly I believe that most people will fall in groups 2 to 4, having
had time to get used to the idea of cyber implants, seeing them work.
And the negative effects are not really well documented or rather
vague. Also note that the negative modifier on social skills only
applies to obvious combat oriented cyber (apart from the eyes, which
might be considered combat oriented in most cases). Datajacks are so
common that no-one really notices them anymore, and there's no talk
about bioware (although the same would apply there for obvious combat
oriented ware I guess). I think that the cyber that scares people
most is the combat oriented stuff, heck it's in effect like walking
around with a loaded gun, except it's in your body.

> But you know what? Few business people go that far, and it's not just
> because of cost issues. There's got to still be a general reluctance to go
> under the knife among the general public, psycho shadowrunners aside.
> There's got to be a fear of the dehumanizing affects of implanting metal
> into someone.

Why? All the contacts I checked that could afford it, have cyber
(except the magically oriented). Not much, but along the lines of my
previous post (I didn't check this before). And whether these people
have felt that they were forced to go under then knife, I see a
different attitude among younger people.
Just image this line of thought:
Two fairly well to do corp people have a kid and want to send her to
college. Of course they put some money aside for fees, but mom and
dad want to give their kiddo every advantage they can give her (very
typical behaviour of parents), so they set aside some more and when
she's old enough they buy her a datajack for a start (after a test
shows that she doesn't have magical abilities of course). Kiddo is a
bit too young to worry too much about side effects and grows up with
the jack and uses it almost instinctively. After a year or two,
there's enough money to get her something new and mom and dad decide
on some memory to score better on test, since daughter dear seems to
score a little bit low on math they opt for a math SPU too. Daughter
dear now dazzles the teachers and her classmates are getting jealous
of her gadgets and start bugging their parents too. So here we have a
group of people who want cyber, in your view to stay competitive, in
my view mostly out of jealousy, but the result is they get it and get
used to it. Depending on mom and dad's financial situation, this can
continue, until daughter dear is on her own. At that moment she won't
have many compulsions against getting more cyber at a later stage.
And a few of those can set of a whole change in attitude in a
generation of the same income group. So getting a cyber mod might be
just as normal as getting a nose job now; maybe painful but
definitely worth it.

> >it shows that a lot of people realize that once the possibility is
> >there to modify your kid or yourself into something better, smarter
> >and perfect looking, there are loads of people who want to do it.
>
> But there are loads more that are terrified about the entire concept.
> Would *I* have a problem flipping a few genes to try and make my baby
> "better"? As of this moment, being single and nowhere near fatherhood,
> sure I would. But I'm in a distinct minority with this view.

Doesn't matter at all. Have one generation of a bunch of modified
kids running around, and the next will be forced to either get it
too, or fall behind. Those people might be forced to get cyber
against their personal wishes, but the generation following those
will perceive it as normal.

> Cyberware, in general, probably does have general acceptance. That
> *doesn't* mean that you would accept having it installed yourself or accept
> your friend if they had 'ware installed. Think about tattoos for a moment;
> the idea and concept is widespread and accepted. But there are plenty of
> people who would never get a tattoo themself and would think less of
> someone that had a tattoo.

Tatoo's are not having any positive effects, cyber does, and most of
it isn't visible. I would never consider getting a tatoo, but would
get myself some useful cyber, money permitting.

> Maybe you oughta either write this up for you own web page or allow Blaze
> or I to put it up. Would fit in great with either of our sites, but you
> might want to host it yourself.

Use it, by all means, just give credits or something similar. I might
put it up myself, but right now I'm constructing a website and I
don't see it finished any time soon.

thanks for the comments,

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 3
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: willingness to get bio/cyber
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 16:01:25 +0100
In article <199807260622.HAA28024@****.iol.ie>, Martin Steffens
<chimerae@***.IE> writes
>and thus did M. Sean Martinez speak on 24 Jul 98 at 14:06:
>
>> Under the pedestrain contact it states that 99% of the population is
>> uncybered. It was a shock to me as well, but I could see it.
>
>Damn, you're right. Must have been a slip up or poetic license, since
>the say in cybertech that data jacks are so common that no-one
>notices them anymore.

There is always the possibility that by "uncybered" FASA are not
including the datajack. Datajacks are described in several places as
being used to interface with programmable house modules, such as coffee
machines, cookers, trid sets etc. It may be that the datajack as being
the most versatile of units to have implanted and one of the cheapest
doesn't come into the equation, but that the comment is aimed at those
units that augment the person beyond their normal capability, such as
limbs, wires, encephalon etc. I can think of at least four mods that
don't come into this "augment" heading and therefore might qualify as
"normal". After all there are 101 uses for a datajack - in fact
probably more.

IMO.

--
Avenger
http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm
(Newbies Survival Guide to Stk & SR stuff)
http://freespace.virgin.net/p.siems/index.htm
(UK Survival Guide, SR Guide to the Oceans.)
Message no. 4
From: wafflemiesters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: willingness to get bio/cyber
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 11:04:54 -0500
> Re: Taking Women Seriously / willingness to get bio/cyber (Gurth , Sat 5:54)
>
> M. Sean Martinez said on 14:06/24 Jul 98,...
>
> > Under the pedestrain contact it states that 99% of the population is
> > uncybered. It was a shock to me as well, but I could see it.
>
> If you just look at the costs involved, it's easily understandable. A
> datajack cost 1000 nuyen, which about doubles if you include
> surgery and hospitalization costs. I don't think many people
> today spend US$2000 without seriously thinking about what
> they're spending it on, and whether they really need it.

HM, my parents just bought me a $2000 computer which I can'thonestly
say I "need"- I'm sure, if it helped in thier field of study, or
increased thier employability, (middle class) parents in 205x would do
the same with cyberware. Think about how GOOD an investement a
datajack, some head memory, and the thingy for using knowsofts would be-
at the very least, you can now learn to speek any language for a not
outrageous cost. Empoyment oportunities open up very fast to somebody
like that. I think 99% means "general population", as in "not movers
and shakers"- mover and shaker contacts all seem to have SOME cyber.

I'd probaly want a datajack- I'm considering speach recognition
software just to save time typing shit for this list (although I doubt
it would, unless it can recognize words like "cyberware", which WinWord
7.0 does not, no matter how many times Iadd it to the dictionay).

Mongoose
Message no. 5
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: willingness to get bio/cyber
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:50:02 -0400
> > M. Sean Martinez said on 14:06/24 Jul 98,...
> >
> > > Under the pedestrain contact it states that 99% of the population
> is
> > > uncybered. It was a shock to me as well, but I could see it.
> >
> > If you just look at the costs involved, it's easily understandable.
> A
> > datajack cost 1000 nuyen, which about doubles if you include
> > surgery and hospitalization costs. I don't think many people
> > today spend US$2000 without seriously thinking about what
> > they're spending it on, and whether they really need it.
>
> HM, my parents just bought me a $2000 computer which I
> can'thonestly
> say I "need"- I'm sure, if it helped in thier field of study, or
> increased thier employability, (middle class) parents in 205x would do
> the same with cyberware. Think about how GOOD an investement a
> datajack, some head memory, and the thingy for using knowsofts would
> be-
> at the very least, you can now learn to speek any language for a not
> outrageous cost. Empoyment oportunities open up very fast to somebody
> like that. I think 99% means "general population", as in "not movers
> and shakers"- mover and shaker contacts all seem to have SOME cyber.
>
Remember the corporate structure here. It would probably
get a little easier to do if the company will pay for it. Hell my corp
(1998) has paid over $4k to send me to two conventions and just
announced that they will pay for undergraduate and post-graduate classes
if it will aid you in your job function. It's also common here, with a
little justification, to get a $5-7k laptop. Two grand is less than a
drop in the bucket to a corp.
In that light it's hard for me to see an accountant
without a math copro and/or and encephalon. I imagine encephalons would
be common with secretaries and managers for the multitasking. I can't
see them springing for a smartgun link for the average wageslave but
some of this stuff would help the average joe. Hell I bet datajacks are
handed out like ID cards are now. Cost of doing business.
Message no. 6
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: willingness to get bio/cyber
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:23:26 -0400
At 07:21 AM 7/26/98 +0000, you wrote:
>and thus did Erik Jameson speak on 24 Jul 98 at 13:13:
>
>(this is getting a very long lasting thread, I wonder if we're
>getting close to being listed the RN-book of records :)
>Also good that I'm an insomniac so I got some extra time to answer
>these mails in the morning)
>
>> Not much lopping, but some might say significant mauling.
>
>ST p.6: "Because of the intrinsically organic nature of bioware,
>implantation is a relatively simple process". I always figured that
>the use of nanites would surgery far less invasive and would cut down
>on the recovery time.

Oh, agreed. There are those folks that might object to anything being done
to their privates though. I think I'd be one of them.

>I think that you project your own opinion of modifications onto the

Actually, I'd be one of the first in line for cybereyes, and I'm the only
person in my family with 20/20 vision.

>2060's and forget about the 60 years in between in which people got
>more and more used to operations for the sake of cosmetic or
>improvement. generations who grew up with the cyber available. It
>might have been something like the computer age; kids picking the
>stuff up rather easily, and adults generally loathe to try it.
>In general I see 7 classes of behaviour in 2060 ranging from
>very anti to pro (if any of the terms sounds offensive, it's not
>meant that way, it's for lack of a better word).

Hmmm...interesting. And probably very true too.

>3. The "Well if I have to..." group. People that don't particulary
>like the idea, but feel that they need to, or are put under pressure
>to get an implant. These people won't go very far (max 1 essence),
>but some of them might move to groups above and below depending on
>the results of the mod. Also these people might see bioware as a more
>acceptable option and have a group 4 attitude towards those mods.

This is probably the large majority of folks. The sort that would rather
not do it, but their job essentially forces them to get cybered, at least
getting a datajack.

>I think that the cyber that scares people
>most is the combat oriented stuff, heck it's in effect like walking
>around with a loaded gun, except it's in your body.

True enough.

>Why? All the contacts I checked that could afford it, have cyber

I'm not of the opinion that contacts are representative of the general
public though, they'll tend to be either underworld denizens like the
'runners themselves or folks needing/wanting to deal with such individuals.

I think they were dropped from SR2, but remember the Upright Uptight
Citizen and the Street Kid? Contacts of the masses, and not a bit of cyber
on them as I recall.

>Doesn't matter at all. Have one generation of a bunch of modified
>kids running around, and the next will be forced to either get it
>too, or fall behind. Those people might be forced to get cyber
>against their personal wishes, but the generation following those
>will perceive it as normal.

Either that or the modified generation will be segregated and shunned by
common society.

>> Maybe you oughta either write this up for you own web page or allow Blaze
>> or I to put it up. Would fit in great with either of our sites, but you
>> might want to host it yourself.
>
>Use it, by all means, just give credits or something similar. I might
>put it up myself, but right now I'm constructing a website and I
>don't see it finished any time soon.

Well, if you can consolidate your thoughts into one post, I've got a spot
on my site where it would fit in perfectly. Anytime it's ready; with some
new software my site should be finally bug-free in a week or two, not to
mention easier to update.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 7
From: Oliver McDonald <oliver@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: willingness to get bio/cyber
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:02:48 +0800
On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:23:26 -0400, Erik Jameson wrote:

>>I think that you project your own opinion of modifications onto the
>
>Actually, I'd be one of the first in line for cybereyes, and I'm the only
>person in my family with 20/20 vision.

Ditto, with of course the obvious mods for telescopic, and IR. I need 'em cause sunlight
hurts my real eyes.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://web2.spydernet.com

Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.

Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.
Message no. 8
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: willingness to get bio/cyber
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:40:23 +0000
and thus did Erik Jameson speak on 27 Jul 98 at 15:23:

> Oh, agreed. There are those folks that might object to anything being done
> to their privates though. I think I'd be one of them.

Ah, you didn't say it was just the private parts we were talking
about. Slight mis-communication there, since I do agree that most
people won't be standing in line for mods to their privates, unless
they're very minor and/or they have some kind of sexual problem that
a mod can solve.

> Actually, I'd be one of the first in line for cybereyes, and I'm the only
> person in my family with 20/20 vision.

Heheh, that's funny, my eyes are probably the only part I am
loathe to cyber out of fear of losing personality in other
people's eyes.

> >3. The "Well if I have to..." group
> This is probably the large majority of folks. The sort that would rather
> not do it, but their job essentially forces them to get cybered, at least
> getting a datajack.

But what happens next? They might have felt pressurized to take the
first, but once you feel how handy it is and how it makes you a
"better" person, the problems you've had with no 1 might disappear
before the sun. I figure that most uncybered fit in that group too,
even if it was just to rationalize their jealousy for not being able
to afford it. But once they got their first piece, I figure it gets
easier.

> I'm not of the opinion that contacts are representative of the general
> public though, they'll tend to be either underworld denizens like the
> 'runners themselves or folks needing/wanting to deal with such individuals.

I should have said the Corporate Contacts all have cyber. the
secretary even has quite a lot for such a function. Sorry about that.

[mods]
> Either that or the modified generation will be segregated and shunned by
> common society.

Yes, but cyber has been around for some time, judging by tales of old
runners with disfunctional wear in some of the books, so it's here to
stay.

> Well, if you can consolidate your thoughts into one post, I've got a spot
> on my site where it would fit in perfectly. Anytime it's ready; with some
> new software my site should be finally bug-free in a week or two, not to
> mention easier to update.

I'll give it a go this weekend, and if I do finish it I'll send it to
you.


Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

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