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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Fri May 25 01:20:00 2001

Message no. 1 Hi. The following is a rough draft of an idea for an implant meant to
increase Willpower. Comments appreciated... and yes, I know, the
writing style needs simplification.

Thanks,

-Allen

P.S. I would be interested if anyone else has had interesting ideas
for Moodchip and/or Personafix BTLs as something other than addictive
ware...

Willpower Boost:

This is a set of cyberware and/or bioware that is capable of enhancing
Willpower. In the research into this, it was discovered that using
only one technique to enhance Willpower lead to mental
problems/imbalances. Therefore, a combination of techniques must be
used. For each level of enhanced Willpower, two of the below three
must be used:
A. Bioware: This is neural bioware involving tissue implanted
primarily into the limbic system (especially the amygdala,
nucleus accumbens, and cingulate gyrus) and basal ganglia,
and into the juncture between the caudate nucleus
(generally considered part of the basal ganglia) and the
dorsolateral prefrontal and lateral orbitofrontal
(orbitolateral) portions of the frontal lobes. Of the
tissue implanted into the limbic system and basal ganglia,
most is serotinergic in its normal production; other
portions respond to corticosteroids by releasing
cannabinoids and GABA-A-receptor agonists. The second
amplifies stimulatory (mostly glutamate and dopamine) and
inhibitory (mostly serotonin and GABA)
signals. Preventative and/or repair work on
emotion/reason-critical areas damaged (or potentially
damageable) by stress hormones and oxygen deprivation
(including that damage related to glutamate overload), via
implanting neural precursors modified to resist such
damage, is also part of this bioware. [This surgery can
result in not only a Rugged Implant but Rugged Attribute:
Willpower.] Any other underlying neuropsychological
problems are also treated as necessary, including via
further cell implants and/or gene therapy. This implant is
most successful when combined with either psychotherapy or
meditative practices to assist in the adaptation to and
structuring of the new neurons; mages and adepts can be
assumed to be meditating as necessary, but others will need
a trained psychotherapist [Psychology skill at least equal
to the new Willpower]. This won't cost anything extra for
the non-Awakened - the increased difficulties of surgery
for them more than compensate - but is an opportunity for
potential vulnerability should the therapist be "persuaded"
to talk. [It's also a roleplaying opportunity.]
B. Tailored Implanted Memory Stimulator (T-IMS): This is a
modified version of the IMS used in cybermancy
subjects. Instead of stimulating all memories at
approximately random intervals, it responds to negative
emotions such as fear and doubt by stimulating memories of
good times, past victories, and other measures to increase
confidence. This does have some of the same disadvantages
as a normal IMS, namely occasional flashbacks. However, the
flashbacks are not to traumatic events (and thus won't
cause negative reactions), tend to be easier to distinguish
from reality due to their more-specific timing, and do not
generally cause social problems given the charismatic
effects of increased confidence. [Whenever a Willpower
Boost implant that includes this implant makes the
difference between success and failure in something, the GM
can rule that the T-IMS has activated, and the resulting
memories should be roleplayed.] This implant cannot be
given along with a normal IMS, and must be removed and
replaced with one for cybermancy; a cybermantic subject
experiencing such a reduced range of memory stimuli has
been found to experience Chronic Dissociation Syndrome
even faster than normal.
C. Implanted Moodchip/Personafix Chip: This piece of cyberwear
is, as the name implies, a derivative of BTL
technology. (Using this along with normal
Moodchip/Personafix BTLs will cause a serious emotional
conflict [Stress to the Willpower attribute plus other
(roleplayed) problems], and is likely to burn out the
implant at the very minimum.) Instead of working through a
normal chipjack (or even an implanted one), however, its
electrodes more directly tap into the necessary areas of
the brain, and do not cause pleasure center activation or
neurological overload like a normal BTL. Still, the
artificial personality state thus induced is not helpful to
doing magic, although it _will_ help with resisting hostile
magic. (The latter effect seems to be due not so much to
the normal Willpower-enhancing effects of the implant as it
does making the person's mind not work in quite the same
way anymore (similar to Object Resistance).) Mages thus
almost always use the other two implants for increasing
Willpower.
The degree to which Willpower can be safely increased at the current
level of technology is largely dependent on the care with which the
cyberwear is constructed and the implantation is done. [The maximum is
+1 for standard implants, +2 for alpha-grade implants, +3 for
beta-grade implants, and +4 or above (GM's decision - requiring use of
all three implants for bonuses above 4 is suggested) for delta-grade
implants. If using the above change regarding Cultured vs normal
neuralware, using normal neuralware will limit the maximum level to a
+2. It's possible that higher levels may be reachable by implanting
all three implants instead of just two of them (such will not increase
Willpower for most magical purposes, of course), since this will
increase the amount of control & precision possible.] The component
cost and stats are as follows:
Bioware:
Bio Index: .2/level
Availability: 6/14 days
Cost: 25,000/level
Street Index: 2
Legality: Legal
[If using the above change regarding Cultured vs
normal neuralware, this is for Cultured neuralware.]
T-IMS:
Essence: .3/level
Availability: 8/1 month
Cost: 70,000/level
Street Index: 3
Legality: Legal
Implanted Moodchip/Personafix Chip:
Essence: .3/level
Availability: 8/14 days
Cost: 20,000/level
Street Index: 2
Legality: Legal
Again, for each level 2 of the above must be combined. [One must note
that the cybermantic Willpower increase spells are probably _not_
normally of a variety capable of increasing _cybered_
Willpower. Cybermatic subjects would thus not be able to receive this
implant after the cybermancy procedure; doing it beforehand - even if
the T-IMS was not used - would probably make the magic involved
significantly more difficult, if the implant's function was to be
retained.]

--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Hahns Shin)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Fri May 25 14:15:01 2001

Message no. 2 > P.S. I would be interested if anyone else has had interesting ideas
> for Moodchip and/or Personafix BTLs as something other than
addictive
> ware...
Well, Dreamchipper described a Personafix pseudo-BTL skillsoft chip
that translated a personality and all the skills associated with that
personality (examples from the module include "Cleopatra" and "Jack
the Ripper"). Winternight, in Threats, also use a BTL "Beserker" chip
to manipulate pawns.

<snip bioware section>
Hmm, browsing through all the technical description (very in depth,
btw... made me dust off some old neuro that was wallowing in my
brain), I am thinking that such a modification would do more than just
boost willpower... perhaps it would change charisma or intelligence as
well? Maybe not, for game balance purposes (we already have Cerebral
Boosters and Tailored Pheromones, for heaven's sake). Also, there
needs to be a "bioware stress table", which would probably result in
most of the "regular" pathologies that are associated with
neurotransmitter imbalance (ranging from Parkinsonism to
schizophrenia). I also think that such an increase in Willpower would
not be associated with the whole Psych evaluation... by 2060, they'd
just chop the patient up, and send him on his way with an
instructional "care and maintenance" chip. Of course, the regular
patient would come in for weekly/monthly checkups, but would a
shadowrunner? I imagine that the cost of culturing the bioware would
include tailoring the treatments to the specific patient (and God help
the poor bastard that doesn't get it cultured or gets it second-hand).

On another note, isn't dopamine inhibitory? I know that there are at
least 4 receptors for it and it inhibits more than neural processes
(prolactin secretion, for example), but my neuro is fuzzy on this (and
I don't have a reference nearby). Is this one of those "inhibitor that
inhibits other inhibitors" cases?

> B. Tailored Implanted Memory Stimulator (T-IMS): This is a
<snip>

Hmm. Maybe this implant can increase Willpower only for the purposes
of "interrogation, torture, or mind-altering spells", just as the
Encephalon doesn't actually increase Intelligence, but gives bonuses
similar to an increase in Intelligence. I like the "taking the mind
away" idea ("the Princess Bride" novel made me think of this). This
would also solve the conflict between this device and the cybermantic
spells that increase Willpower.

> C. Implanted Moodchip/Personafix Chip: This piece of cyberwear
<snip>

Ah, the "Scorched Brain" method. There is always the hard way and the
VERY hard way. *grin* Seriously, I see this as an option for some
crazed NPCs, and some great role-playing opportunities for addicted
PCs.

> The degree to which Willpower can be safely increased at the current
> level of technology is largely dependent on the care with which the
> cyberwear is constructed and the implantation is done. [The maximum
is
> +1 for standard implants, +2 for alpha-grade implants, +3 for
> beta-grade implants, and +4 or above (GM's decision - requiring use
of
> all three implants for bonuses above 4 is suggested) for delta-grade
> implants. If using the above change regarding Cultured vs normal
> neuralware, using normal neuralware will limit the maximum level to
a
> +2. It's possible that higher levels may be reachable by implanting
> all three implants instead of just two of them (such will not
increase
> Willpower for most magical purposes, of course), since this will
> increase the amount of control & precision possible.] The component
> cost and stats are as follows:

Hmm, this I don't agree with, but for reasons I'll state later.
Suffice to say, I think that there should be 2 levels for the bioware,
2 levels for the cyber, and only 1 level for the chip. All stackable,
but not necessarily safe to do so. This is only because I am modeling
it after existing ware in Man and Machine.

> Bioware:
> Bio Index: .2/level
> Availability: 6/14 days
> Cost: 25,000/level
> Street Index: 2
> Legality: Legal
> [If using the above change regarding Cultured vs
> normal neuralware, this is for Cultured neuralware.]
I'd restrict this to up to 2 levels of improved Willpower, and
probably make it worth .4/level in Bio Index. After all, such a
modification would be similar to the Cerebral Booster in extensiveness
and cost. I'd up the price, too, if only to prevent spellbunnies from
taking the 90k at Priority C and gaining a major boost in Willpower
right off the bat (with enough money to spare for a Trauma Damper).

> T-IMS:
> Essence: .3/level
> Availability: 8/1 month
> Cost: 70,000/level
> Street Index: 3
> Legality: Legal

Seems reasonable enough. No arguments here.

> Implanted Moodchip/Personafix Chip:
> Essence: .3/level
> Availability: 8/14 days
> Cost: 20,000/level
> Street Index: 2
> Legality: Legal

I would only have one "level" and I would only charge 0.1 to 0.3
Essence (for an implanted chipjack and resulting 'trodes), but there
would be some SERIOUS long term consequences... looping a sim is not a
good thing, and will only lead to mental burnout. I would put a
penalty structure similar to the Move-by-Wire system.

I disagree with the "multiple systems need to be combined" thing not
because of my background, but because of game continuity. There are no
required crossover bio/cyberware systems that I can think of, and it
just seems a bit complicated for a roleplaying game that has wonderful
complexity already built-in. And of course, one can argue that a
willpower system already exists in the Pain Editor (a suicidal mage's
best friend). Note that the above thoughts are only what I am thinking
at the moment, and I'll probably change them on a whim or after much
needed sleep.

Hahns Shin, MS II
Budding cybersurgeon

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Eric Wiser)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Fri May 25 15:10:01 2001

Message no. 3 Hahns Shin wrote:

> <snip bioware section>
> I imagine that the cost of culturing the bioware would
> include tailoring the treatments to the specific patient (and God help
> the poor bastard that doesn't get it cultured or gets it second-hand).

Um... ouch.

>
>
> On another note, isn't dopamine inhibitory? I know that there are at
> least 4 receptors for it and it inhibits more than neural processes
> (prolactin secretion, for example), but my neuro is fuzzy on this (and
> I don't have a reference nearby). Is this one of those "inhibitor that
> inhibits other inhibitors" cases?
>

As with all things neurological it is pretty complicated. Without any of
my texts nearby, so I am shooting off the hip, I would say
that dopamine is a para-sympathetic system stimulator which, of course,
makes it a sympathetic system inhibitor. I say this because if
Dopamine affects the brain processes that control movement, emotional
response, and ability to experience pleasure and pain.

>From what I remember you are correct in that there are 4 cell types that
are effected, first those cells from the mid-brain to the involuntary
motor areas in the basal ganglia (cells in these areas deteriorate in
Parkinson's disease). Second from the mid-brain to the frontal lobes
(These pathways appear to be related to attention and orienting and may be
related to the effect of dopamine-enhancing drugs on Attention Deficit
Hyperactivity Disorder). Third from the mid-brain to the limbic system
controlling emotional responses (these areas are related to the
reinforcement centers of the brain and may relate to the addicting nature
of drugs which enhance dopamine function). They also include areas which
appear to be overactive in schizophrenia, helping to explain why dopamine
blocking drugs can treat the symptoms of this disorder. And finally
cells from a short pathway related to the release of hormones from the
pituitary gland.

Something else that should be considered is that the body will try and
'ballance out' the abount of dopamine by either sensitizing or
desensitizing to the chemical. A lot of work has been done on exactly how
this happens by the guys who are interested in cocaine adiction (cocaine
binds to the dopamine receptor to produce the euphoric feelings
characteristic of the high.)

Eric Wiser

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Sat May 26 04:05:03 2001

Message no. 4 On May 25, 2:36pm, Hahns Shin wrote:
> > P.S. I would be interested if anyone else has had interesting ideas
> > for Moodchip and/or Personafix BTLs as something other than
> addictive
> > ware...
> Well, Dreamchipper described a Personafix pseudo-BTL skillsoft chip
> that translated a personality and all the skills associated with that
> personality (examples from the module include "Cleopatra" and "Jack
> the Ripper"). Winternight, in Threats, also use a BTL "Beserker" chip
> to manipulate pawns.

Interesting! I may take a look around for these...

> <snip bioware section>
> Hmm, browsing through all the technical description (very in depth,
> btw...

Hmm... yes, I should perhaps insert some explanations as to some of
the purposes of all this. The major limbic system work acts to help
stabilize emotions (the amygdala's classically linked to fear and
anger, and the cingulate gyrus to depression, OCD, etcetera) and
reduce impulsivity (the nucleus accumbens appears to be related to the
balance between immediate and delayed gratification). While this might
sound like it'd leave the person a Vulcan, having one's emotions
better under innate control can also allow one to _loosen up_ on
emotional controls - one is less worried about going out of control.

The connections to the prefrontal lobes allow for more rational
control over the emotions, essentially - both suppression and
promotion of emotions.

> made me dust off some old neuro that was wallowing in my
> brain),

A longtime interest in neuropsychopharmacology does help!

> I am thinking that such a modification would do more than just
> boost willpower... perhaps it would change charisma or intelligence as
> well?

A possibility...

> Maybe not, for game balance purposes

Right. Also for realism, what I'd suggest is that having this should
remove restrictions on spending Karma for improving Charisma and
Intelligence by a point or so each - in other words, the bioware is
giving you increased self-control (e.g., reducing distractions), which
can increase either of these, but it won't do it by itself; however,
it makes it a lot easier to do so on your own. No monetary costs or
training requirement (the time limit should be via simply normal
activity with the bioware in place).

> (we already have Cerebral Boosters and Tailored Pheromones, for
> heaven's sake).

The latter doesn't affect Conjuring and Astral Projection,
however... although that it doesn't (and the comments regarding
Charisma and self-perception in the Matrix section on the Otaku (pg
138)) does indicate that much of Charisma is cerebral.

> Also, there needs to be a "bioware stress table", which would
> probably result in most of the "regular" pathologies that are
> associated with neurotransmitter imbalance (ranging from
> Parkinsonism to schizophrenia).

Thank you for the reminder, right. Schizophrenia (or, at lower levels,
schizoid personality disorder)

> I also think that such an increase in Willpower would
> not be associated with the whole Psych evaluation... by 2060, they'd
> just chop the patient up, and send him on his way with an
> instructional "care and maintenance" chip.

That'd probably be what they'd do normally, but I am not sure whether
it'd _work_ without it - especially for elevating Willpower
significantly (more than +1, or to much over the Racial Modified
Limit).

> Of course, the regular patient would come in for weekly/monthly
> checkups, but would a shadowrunner?

Good point.

> I imagine that the cost of culturing the bioware would
> include tailoring the treatments to the specific patient (and God help
> the poor bastard that doesn't get it cultured or gets it second-hand).

This one's a definite no-second-hand one, yes... and I am starting to
agree with you on the cultured-only part.

> On another note, isn't dopamine inhibitory?

Generally, no; it's the one that's involved in cocaine and
amphetamines.

> I know that there are at
> least 4 receptors for it and it inhibits more than neural processes
> (prolactin secretion, for example), but my neuro is fuzzy on this (and
> I don't have a reference nearby).

Understand.

> Is this one of those "inhibitor that
> inhibits other inhibitors" cases?

Not so far as I know, modulo the receptor that's for back-feedback (on
the dopamine-producing neurons).

> > B. Tailored Implanted Memory Stimulator (T-IMS): This is a
> <snip>
>
> Hmm. Maybe this implant can increase Willpower only for the purposes
> of "interrogation, torture, or mind-altering spells", just as the
> Encephalon doesn't actually increase Intelligence, but gives bonuses
> similar to an increase in Intelligence.

Possible, especially with your suggested change down below to no
longer require dual systems. Such a thing would increase
self-confidence, though, actually even including times that it
_wasn't_ active, since you'd know that it _could_ activate so the fear
or whatever wouldn't seem so bad.

> I like the "taking the mind
> away" idea ("the Princess Bride" novel made me think of this).

Huh. Thank you. I hadn't really connected it...

> This
> would also solve the conflict between this device and the cybermantic
> spells that increase Willpower.

Yes... it's just that the cybermantic procedure _already_ includes
such a gizmo, just less restricted, and I don't see that the two
should be cumulative.

> > C. Implanted Moodchip/Personafix Chip: This piece of cyberwear
> <snip>
>
> Ah, the "Scorched Brain" method. There is always the hard way and the
> VERY hard way.

Well, it's not _meant_ to give rise to 'scorched brain'.... Stress to
it is rather likely to be nastier than normal, though, as well as the
massive potential conflicts between it and other BTLs.

> *grin* Seriously, I see this as an option for some
> crazed NPCs, and some great role-playing opportunities for addicted
> PCs.

Oh? The implant itself isn't addictive, as I thought I'd stated
clearly enough... at least in terms of tolerance not developing. If it
broke down, of course, that'd be another matter. I should probably
make a note to that effect...

[requiring combination and varying by grade of implant]

> Hmm, this I don't agree with, but for reasons I'll state later.
> Suffice to say, I think that there should be 2 levels for the bioware,
> 2 levels for the cyber, and only 1 level for the chip. All stackable,
> but not necessarily safe to do so. This is only because I am modeling
> it after existing ware in Man and Machine.
>
> > Bioware:
> > Bio Index: .2/level
> > Availability: 6/14 days
> > Cost: 25,000/level
> > Street Index: 2
> > Legality: Legal
> > [If using the above change regarding Cultured vs
> > normal neuralware, this is for Cultured neuralware.]
> I'd restrict this to up to 2 levels of improved Willpower, and
> probably make it worth .4/level in Bio Index. After all, such a
> modification would be similar to the Cerebral Booster in extensiveness
> and cost.

That's what I had in mind, yes, but with the dual-system requirement.

> I'd up the price, too, if only to prevent spellbunnies from
> taking the 90k at Priority C and gaining a major boost in Willpower
> right off the bat (with enough money to spare for a Trauma Damper).

Again, the dual-system requirement is what makes the difference
here. Without that, fully agreed - at least double the price.

> > T-IMS:
> > Essence: .3/level
> > Availability: 8/1 month
> > Cost: 70,000/level
> > Street Index: 3
> > Legality: Legal
>
> Seems reasonable enough. No arguments here.

With or without the limit you suggest above?

> > Implanted Moodchip/Personafix Chip:
> > Essence: .3/level
> > Availability: 8/14 days
> > Cost: 20,000/level
> > Street Index: 2
> > Legality: Legal
>
> I would only have one "level"

I can see that argument.

> and I would only charge 0.1 to 0.3
> Essence (for an implanted chipjack and resulting 'trodes), but there
> would be some SERIOUS long term consequences... looping a sim is not a
> good thing, and will only lead to mental burnout. I would put a
> penalty structure similar to the Move-by-Wire system.

I had in mind that the added cost et al would be for _avoiding_ such
penalties. If you went with a standard system to try to do this, as
you describe, I definitely agree! (Admittedly, what you're describing
in some ways could be something intermediate between what permanent
BTLing would do to somebody (which leads to deterioration kind of
fast, especially with tolerance building up...) and the
lack-of-problems-normally way I had it working. That may well be more
realistic.)

> I disagree with the "multiple systems need to be combined" thing not
> because of my background, but because of game continuity.

One purpose of it is to limit any abusive use of this by the
Awakened. If you do both bioware and cyberwear, that means (thanks to
the new system in M&M for this) Magic loss both from Essence and Bio
Index.

> There are no required crossover bio/cyberware systems that I can
> think of,

I'd argue that pretty much _all_ the cyberwear requiring power has
combined bioware in it. (The "neural electricity" powering thing in M&M pg
11-12 is, well, one of the less realistic ideas in the book (besides
Move-by-Wire's explanation!). Muscular electricity could do a bit of
it, but a lot of it is likely to be something like cultured
genetically-altered fibroblasts (for maximal compatibility) turning
glucose into something a fuel cell can run on.) Admittedly, this
doesn't involve bio index.

> and it just seems a bit complicated for a roleplaying game that has
> wonderful complexity already built-in.

Heh... OK, OK, I'm somebody who does things like combining Champions
and GURPS!

> And of course, one can argue that a
> willpower system already exists in the Pain Editor (a suicidal mage's
> best friend).

Shudder... although it does decrease Int, which can't be described as
a good thing for a spellcaster (Astral Projection and all that). I'm
not sure about those stat modifiers from it, of course... although
that it's capable of acting on mental damage/fatigue does argue in
favor of it having more effects on the brain than one would think.

> Note that the above thoughts are only what I am thinking
> at the moment, and I'll probably change them on a whim or after much
> needed sleep.

Understood - get some! :-}

Yours,

-Allen

P.S. Incidentally, speaking of the addiction rules, am I the only one
who finds losing Body from a mental-only addiction kind of weird? I
can maybe see it if the person's living a Squatter or Street
lifestyle, representing that they're putting money into the addiction
instead of into taking care of themselves, but otherwise...

--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Sat May 26 04:20:05 2001

Message no. 5 On May 25, 3:23pm, Eric Wiser wrote:
>
>
> Hahns Shin wrote:

> > On another note, isn't dopamine inhibitory? I know that there are at
> > least 4 receptors for it and it inhibits more than neural processes
> > (prolactin secretion, for example), but my neuro is fuzzy on this (and
> > I don't have a reference nearby). Is this one of those "inhibitor that
> > inhibits other inhibitors" cases?
> >
>
> As with all things neurological it is pretty complicated.

Thoroughly. It may well have mixed effects, especially depending on
which area of the brain you're talking about.

> Without any of
> my texts nearby, so I am shooting off the hip, I would say
> that dopamine is a para-sympathetic system stimulator

Primarily sympathetic stimulator, so far as I know.

> which, of course,
> makes it a sympathetic system inhibitor. I say this because if
> Dopamine affects the brain processes that control movement, emotional
> response, and ability to experience pleasure and pain.

Yes.

> From what I remember you are correct in that there are 4 cell types that
> are effected, first those cells from the mid-brain to the involuntary
> motor areas in the basal ganglia (cells in these areas deteriorate in
> Parkinson's disease). Second from the mid-brain to the frontal lobes
> (These pathways appear to be related to attention and orienting and may be
> related to the effect of dopamine-enhancing drugs on Attention Deficit
> Hyperactivity Disorder).

Right, and also possibly with schizophrenia.

> Third from the mid-brain to the limbic system
> controlling emotional responses (these areas are related to the
> reinforcement centers of the brain and may relate to the addicting nature
> of drugs which enhance dopamine function). They also include areas which
> appear to be overactive in schizophrenia, helping to explain why dopamine
> blocking drugs can treat the symptoms of this disorder. And finally
> cells from a short pathway related to the release of hormones from the
> pituitary gland.

Right.

> Something else that should be considered is that the body will try and
> 'ballance out' the abount of dopamine by either sensitizing or
> desensitizing to the chemical.

A lot of that is due to:
A. near-continuous low levels of dopaminergic enhancement;
B. very high spikes of dopamine (or effective dopamine)
levels; or
C. interactions with the feedback inhibitory receptors on
dopaminergic neurons.
The first and second aren't really applicable here, since it's doing
more of an enhancement (but not to overload levels) of stimuli that
are already present. The third can be taken care of by tinkering with
the feedback receptor sensitivity on said implanted dopaminergic
neurons.

> A lot of work has been done on exactly how this happens by the guys
> who are interested in cocaine adiction (cocaine binds to the
> dopamine receptor to produce the euphoric feelings characteristic of
> the high.)

Right. Take a look at:
http://www.eurekalert.org/releases/nih-rlt052301.html
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010525/hl/gratification_1.html

(I'd give a link to the original science, but it isn't available
online sans (free) subscription.)

Yours,

-Allen

--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu

From:	shadowrn@*******.com (shadowrn@*******.com)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Sat May 26 13:00:01 2001

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 5/26/01 4:14:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
easmith@********.rutgers.edu writes:

P.S. Incidentally, speaking of the addiction rules, am I the only one
who finds losing Body from a mental-only addiction kind of weird? I
can maybe see it if the person's living a Squatter or Street
lifestyle, representing that they're putting money into the addiction
instead of into taking care of themselves, but otherwise...

Not particularly weird. A lot of addicts and recovering addicts I've
spoken to say that, no matter what, your life becomes focused on the drug. To
the exclusion of eating, drinking, whatever. That crossed class lines easily.
So, yeah, I could easily see Body loss.

--part1_c1.e9d67d1.28413bd0_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>In a message dated
5/26/01 4:14:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
 easmith@********.rutgers.edu writes:
 
 
 P.S.
Incidentally, speaking of the addiction rules, am I the only one
 who finds losing Body from a mental-only addiction kind of weird? I
 can maybe see it if the person's living a Squatter or Street
 lifestyle, representing that they're putting money into the addiction
 instead of into taking care of themselves, but otherwise...
 
       Not particularly
weird. A lot of addicts and recovering addicts I've
 spoken to say that, no matter what, your life becomes focused on the drug. To
 the exclusion of eating, drinking, whatever. That crossed class lines easily.
 So, yeah, I could easily see Body loss.</HTML>

--part1_c1.e9d67d1.28413bd0_boundary--

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Sat May 26 18:10:01 2001

Message no. 7 On May 26, 1:12pm, DemonPenta@***.com wrote:
>
> [ Attachment (multipart/alternative): 1905 bytes ]

Mind sending this in plain text? IIRC, that's a list
requirement...

Yours,

-Allen

--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gabe Chomic)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Sat May 26 19:10:01 2001

Message no. 8 DemonPenta@***.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/26/01 4:14:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> easmith@********.rutgers.edu writes:
>
> P.S. Incidentally, speaking of the addiction rules, am I the only one
> who finds losing Body from a mental-only addiction kind of weird? I
> can maybe see it if the person's living a Squatter or Street
> lifestyle, representing that they're putting money into the addiction
> instead of into taking care of themselves, but otherwise...
>
> Not particularly weird. A lot of addicts and recovering addicts
> I've
> spoken to say that, no matter what, your life becomes focused on the
> drug. To
> the exclusion of eating, drinking, whatever. That crossed class lines
> easily.
> So, yeah, I could easily see Body loss.

I'll verify that as well. It's not a matter of amount of money, but
whether or not you bother to take care of yourself.

Gabe

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Sat May 26 20:45:01 2001

Message no. 9 On May 26, 7:34pm, Gabe Chomic wrote:
>
>
> DemonPenta@***.com wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 5/26/01 4:14:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > easmith@********.rutgers.edu writes:
> >
> > >P.S. Incidentally, speaking of the addiction rules, am I the only
> > >one who finds losing Body from a mental-only addiction kind of
> > >weird? I can maybe see it if the person's living a Squatter or
> > >Street lifestyle, representing that they're putting money into
> > >the addiction instead of into taking care of themselves, but
> > >otherwise...
> >
> > Not particularly weird. A lot of addicts and recovering addicts
> > I've spoken to say that, no matter what, your life becomes focused
> > on the drug. To the exclusion of eating, drinking, whatever. That
> > crossed class lines easily. So, yeah, I could easily see Body
> > loss.
>
> I'll verify that as well. It's not a matter of amount of money, but
> whether or not you bother to take care of yourself.

I admittedly don't have first-hand knowledge (or even acquaintance
knowledge) in this regard. (While I'm on ritalin - a methamphetamine
derivative - it's for ADD, and people with ADD/ADHD don't respond in
nearly the same way as others. Believe me, taking more than one dose -
which has happened by accident thanks to forgetting whether I've taken
one or not - is _not_ pleasurable.) I am also biased by being a
libertarian, and thus in favor of drug legalization.

However... a classic case of an in-real-life mentally-only addictive
drug (if that) is marijuana. You don't see this kind of deterioration
in Rastas. There are also people who can function long-term without
such a concentration on the drug, although a lot of it depends on the
availability of the drug (a lot of the deterioration in long-term
heroin addicts comes when they're off of methadone maintenance, for
instance) and the person's personality. Now, one can argue that the
Willpower roll for mental-addiction-only drugs takes care of
personality differences - but the difficulty for that keeps going up
at an _extremely_ rapid rate!

A lot of the problem, in other words, is the rule for Addiction and
Tolerance ratings going up so fast. If that happened in real life,
we'd have people ODing after less than a year of being on most drugs!
About the only modern-day drug that I know of that even comes _close_
to these rules is crack cocaine. No insult intended, but I think the
designers were listening a bit too much to War on (Some) Drugs
propaganda...

Another aspect is that the rules assume everyone is, modulo Body and
Willpower - and those, as I point out, will give way after some period
of time - completely addictable to all drugs. Most tendencies
toward addiction are genetic. The majority of the population, for
instance, is highly unlikely to become an alcoholic, even if they're
drinking every night for their entire lives. (Alcohol _dependence_
(which is a lot more survivable than alcoholism, and may allow for
controlled drinking) is more possible, but still isn't inevitable.)

Even if you assume that drugs in 2060 are a hell of a lot worse than
they are today, and that's what the game is trying to simulate, that
doesn't fit the fiction et al. People do in the SR world keep going
for some length of time as BTL-heads or addicts to various drugs.

A revision to this rule - _not_ increasing by number of doses, but by
(say) number of weeks or months, _and_ allowing for a Body/Willpower
roll to avoid even that - would be a lot more realistic. For many
drugs like alcohol, exempting people from the possibility of addiction
based on, say, the first Body/Willpower roll having less 1's than
successes would also make sense.

Yours,

-Allen

--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu

From:	shadowrn@*******.com (shadowrn@*******.com)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Sat May 26 21:00:01 2001

Message no. 10 In a message dated 5/26/01 8:54:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
easmith@********.rutgers.edu writes:

I admittedly don't have first-hand knowledge (or even acquaintance
knowledge) in this regard. (While I'm on ritalin - a methamphetamine
derivative - it's for ADD, and people with ADD/ADHD don't respond in
nearly the same way as others. Believe me, taking more than one dose -
which has happened by accident thanks to forgetting whether I've taken
one or not - is _not_ pleasurable.)

Yeah, I've taken ritalin too...Even with Provigil, a narcolepsy drug I take
in place of Ritalin (Tho insurance won't cover...grr), the crash is hard.
I've oft wondered if a crash from heroin or cocaine is similar.

The thing is, Allen...The designers were trying to state rather emphatically:
Do drugs if you want, but they *will* mess you up. Why? Higher potency. More
direct effect.

Part of it is, yeah, propaganda, but that's to save their asses from screams
of "THESE SATANIC GAMERS ARE PROMOTING DRUG USE BY MY LITTLE JOHNNY!"

Otherwise? By 2060, drugs are way more potent. While it's hard to OD on weed
(I oughta know. Have a few friends that use it.), it's not hard to OD on
heroin, or speed, or crack; Primarily, those are the drugs it's meant to
simulate.

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gabe Chomic)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Sat May 26 22:55:01 2001

Message no. 11 Ergh. Looking back on this post, my points wander all over the place.

If and when I need to GM over the addiction rules, I'm customizing them
to the situation. There are far to many variables. I am in complete
agreement that the addiction rules in SR are far too severe. And the
example of weed is a poor example... many people don't consider
marijuana a drug in that sense for good reason, partially because it's
extremely unlikely (possible that it's happened in rare instances) that
one will become so focused on it that one ceases to take care of
oneself.

I agree with other posts. Fasa was just trying to focus on the hardcore
aspects of drugs and trying to make sure characters didn't use them in
their games... for the PR reasons, I think. Last thing FASA needed was
a parent activist group or similar group saying "My kid's character in
this Satan worshipping game uses drugs!" or some other nonsense (and
sorry to anyone I just offended with that, it's a classic example.)
Certain drugs do debilitate you in such fashions, but not most of them.

Furthermore, while genetic factors are strong in addiction, there are
two other major factors (offhand,) those being personality traits, and,
IMO most important, environment. I am no expert on genetic influence in
this situation, the only knowledge I have of it's effects on addiction
are in terms of alcoholism, but the term 'addictive personality' is very
accurate.

I'd say that the biggest complication with the abuse rules in SR3 is the
Edge Rating. I don't think all drugs should have them, while for
certain drugs they are quite apt. I'd recommend the following, if
you're seeking to promote accuracy in your campaign and you don't mind
having the potential of character drug use come into play:

- Making sure that the Edge factor is only applied to 'sessions' of drug
use. Not per dose. A session is defined as any period of continued use
with no more than half an hour after the drug wears off before the user
takes another dose.

- In all cases, increasing the pre-addiction edge rating by a multiplier
of at least x3, and reducing the post-addiction Edge rating by a
subjective (to the drug) amount.

- Reducing the 'drug use count' (in terms of Edge,) by 1 per week the
drug isn't used at all in that week.

- Eliminating the Edge feature for certain (rare) drugs. These drugs
instead should have immense tolerance for a few days after their use,
and are almost always hallucinogenic. Many, but not all, hallucinogenic
drugs currently have non-addictive features that actually discourage
addiction, but those have probably been ironed out by the drug producers
by now.

- For most drugs, apply the modified Edge feature only to Tolerance.
For addiction, instead have a Frequency Factor equal to the original
Edge. If the user uses this drug (Frequency) times every two weeks,
they have to make an addiction check. If they use it (Frequency x1.5)
times in a two-week period, they have to make another check and add +3TN
to any mental addiction ratings. Add +2 to the mental TN and another
check for every .5 more times.

- To simulate the factors of environment, a character with little urgent
to do (i.e., shadowrunner downtime,) who has used a certain drug within
the past three weeks, and who has access to it (be some form of contact
or friends who use,) must make a check to see if he decides 'ahh what
the hell, what else have I got to do.' This check should be rolled
using ((Intelligence + Willpower)/2), against a target # of [(Mental
Addiction Rating of drug last checked at, default to base Addiction
rating) -3]. This check must be performed everyday that the character
has ample free time for a week after use, thrice a week for the second
week (unless the character is busy all week,) and twice the third week
(again, unless the character is busy all week.)

I feel this adequately allows for occasional use, while those who use
more often risk addiction. The last feature accounts for what I feel is
a large factor in such cases, and is simply caused by boredom
(especially when shadowrunners lead lives characterized by intense
excitement and days or weeks of nothing.) Note the term, 'little
urgent' to do. A gamemaster is free to define this, depending upon how
much the character enjoyed the drug, what he has to do (procrastination
being an art form,) and personal preference.
For those familiar with Maslow's Need-Fufillment Model, I'd say that
this is in the neighborhood of Belongingness and Love Needs, definitely
above Safety Needs and below Esteem needs. (After addiction, that's
right out the window, and the drug goes right down there (and more
important than) Physiological Needs.)

Terming drug addiction rules in weeks or months is, IMO, a poor
solution. The frequency of use matters quite a bit. A combination of
both, perhaps, with a sustained average use over a period of time,
(amount of average use required for a check dependent on the type of
drug, based upon RL examples.) Websites to research this at are
available upon request, I don't wish to aggravate GridSec through
posting 'em here.

Finally, a note on your notes on alcohol. I don't think Burn is your
classic synthahol, being more like a strengthened version of grain
alcohol (judging from the damage code of 3D stun.) Obviously, it's
addiction factor is reflective of this, and probably doesn't apply to
the typical synthahol drinker. As it stands, under my model above, it's
damn hard to become addicted to Burn. To rectify this, and accounting
for some of the unique characteristics of alcohol, if using the model
above I wouldn't apply the first rule (the session rule) to Burn.

Finally, if a character is addicted to a drug, it should be a lot easier
(+3TN) for them to become addicted to a second drug. In most cases, the
stronger drug will also satisfy the weaker drug's fix factor.

Feel free to comment on this, I just pulled this up out of nothing but
experience, watching friends dive into the downward spiral of addiction,
the M&M rules, and previous research after reading this thread.

Gabe
--

"Like a priceless jewel buried in dark layers of soil and stone
Earth radiates her brilliant beauty into the cameras of space and time,
Perhaps you are aware of those who watch over your home
And experience it as a place to visit and play with reality.
You are becoming aware of yourself as a Gamemaster."
-Lost Tribe, "Gamemaster"

> > I'll verify that as well. It's not a matter of amount of money, but
> > whether or not you bother to take care of yourself.
>
> I admittedly don't have first-hand knowledge (or even acquaintance
> knowledge) in this regard. (While I'm on ritalin - a methamphetamine
> derivative - it's for ADD, and people with ADD/ADHD don't respond in
> nearly the same way as others. Believe me, taking more than one dose -
> which has happened by accident thanks to forgetting whether I've taken
> one or not - is _not_ pleasurable.) I am also biased by being a
> libertarian, and thus in favor of drug legalization.
>
> However... a classic case of an in-real-life mentally-only addictive
> drug (if that) is marijuana. You don't see this kind of deterioration
> in Rastas. There are also people who can function long-term without
> such a concentration on the drug, although a lot of it depends on the
> availability of the drug (a lot of the deterioration in long-term
> heroin addicts comes when they're off of methadone maintenance, for
> instance) and the person's personality. Now, one can argue that the
> Willpower roll for mental-addiction-only drugs takes care of
> personality differences - but the difficulty for that keeps going up
> at an _extremely_ rapid rate!
>
> A lot of the problem, in other words, is the rule for Addiction and
> Tolerance ratings going up so fast. If that happened in real life,
> we'd have people ODing after less than a year of being on most drugs!
> About the only modern-day drug that I know of that even comes _close_
> to these rules is crack cocaine. No insult intended, but I think the
> designers were listening a bit too much to War on (Some) Drugs
> propaganda...
>
> Another aspect is that the rules assume everyone is, modulo Body and
> Willpower - and those, as I point out, will give way after some period
> of time - completely addictable to all drugs. Most tendencies
> toward addiction are genetic. The majority of the population, for
> instance, is highly unlikely to become an alcoholic, even if they're
> drinking every night for their entire lives. (Alcohol _dependence_
> (which is a lot more survivable than alcoholism, and may allow for
> controlled drinking) is more possible, but still isn't inevitable.)
>
> Even if you assume that drugs in 2060 are a hell of a lot worse than
> they are today, and that's what the game is trying to simulate, that
> doesn't fit the fiction et al. People do in the SR world keep going
> for some length of time as BTL-heads or addicts to various drugs.
>
> A revision to this rule - _not_ increasing by number of doses, but by
> (say) number of weeks or months, _and_ allowing for a Body/Willpower
> roll to avoid even that - would be a lot more realistic. For many
> drugs like alcohol, exempting people from the possibility of addiction
> based on, say, the first Body/Willpower roll having less 1's than
> successes would also make sense.
>
> Yours,
>
> -Allen
>
> --
> Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu
>

From:	shadowrn@*******.com (shadowrn@*******.com)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Sat May 26 23:25:01 2001

Message no. 12 --part1_6a.e86f30b.2841cee3_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 5/26/01 11:01:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, chomig@***.edu
writes:

> Feel free to comment on this, I just pulled this up out of nothing but
> experience, watching friends dive into the downward spiral of addiction,
> the M&M rules, and previous research after reading this thread.

I agree with it, mostly. I've heard some real horror stories about coke and
heroin use, and I think you may have understated how quickly addiction (or,
for that matter, ODing) can happen, but mostly I agree. My thoughts on GMing
addictions, especially drug addictions, based off my experience observing and
talking to people either using or getting clean:

1. Do research: By God...it helps SOOO much to have researched it.
Talk to people who've 'been there', if you can, even. After enough group
therapy sessions with kids who've been through drug addiction, I can describe
quite well to my players just how painful withdrawal is. How...painful the
crash from a high can be. From my own experience, I can describe the utter
PAIN that is coming off of a stimulant.

2. Let the darkness flow: Depends on the group, but emphasize the
seediness of BTL and drug use in most circumstances. What does getting drugs
these days consist of? Well, for the people I've talked to, it consisted of
heading into some of the worst areas they ever visited, meetings they weren't
sure they'd walk out of in one piece with typically armed dealers (we're
talking knives and switchblades here, not guns), and then a high that didn't
last too long, really.

3. It only goes downhill...: Gabe can probably echo this...once
someone gets addicted, it's...difficult to pull them out. For a lot of
people, though they usually won't admit it, drugs are a crutch. (And, only
for this reason, I personally consider weed a drug.) A crutch so that they
don't have to deal with very painful personal issues; A lot of use is
"self-medicating". Instead of perscription drugs and psych treatment, people
turn to weed, cocaine, or heroin. The problem, thus, goes untreated, and the
addiction doesn't cure it. The problem grows, leading to further use, and on
and on. It's a vicious cycle, and not pleasant at all to watch.

4. Getting clean: It's not easy. Slam that home. Even observing people
getting clean...It takes a lot of strength to get clean, enough that most
people, without a lot of support, can't do it. (The prime reason groups like
AA and NA exist is to provide that support. Without it, it usually doesn't
happen.) Even with that support, it's pure hell. Usually, when you use and
are addicted, your life becomes oriented around it; Your friends, your
relationships...everything revolves around using. When you get clean, all of
that has to go. Your life gets shattered into a thousand pieces, and you have
to rebuild...from scratch. Getting work is hard, and for a runner is probably
doubly-so; Who would trust someone who's used with dangerous work that needs
to be kept quiet? Not many people. Getting friends is hard; Usually, your use
provided that connection. Romantic relationships are REALLY hard, because
it's hard to find a drug user who doesn't get their confidence from their
drugs, and without that confidence, most people aren't attracted to you.

OK, I'm done.

John

--part1_6a.e86f30b.2841cee3_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>In a message dated
5/26/01 11:01:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, chomig@***.edu
 writes:
 
 
 <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Feel free to comment on
this, I just pulled this up out of nothing but
 experience, watching friends dive into the downward spiral of addiction,
 the M&M rules, and previous research after reading this
thread.</BLOCKQUOTE>
 
 I agree with it, mostly. I've heard some real horror stories about coke and
 heroin use, and I think you may have understated how quickly addiction (or,
 for that matter, ODing) can happen, but mostly I agree. My thoughts on GMing
 addictions, especially drug addictions, based off my experience observing and
 talking to people either using or getting clean:
 
       1. Do research: By
God...it helps SOOO much to have researched it.
 Talk to people who've 'been there', if you can, even. After enough group
 therapy sessions with kids who've been through drug addiction, I can describe
 quite well to my players just how painful withdrawal is. How...painful the
 crash from a high can be. From my own experience, I can describe the utter
 PAIN that is coming off of a stimulant.
 
       2. Let the darkness
flow: Depends on the group, but emphasize the
 seediness of BTL and drug use in most circumstances. What does getting drugs
 these days consist of? Well, for the people I've talked to, it consisted of
 heading into some of the worst areas they ever visited, meetings they weren't
 sure they'd walk out of in one piece with typically armed dealers (we're
 talking knives and switchblades here, not guns), and then a high that didn't
 last too long, really.
 
       3. It only goes
downhill...: Gabe can probably echo this...once
 someone gets addicted, it's...difficult to pull them out. For a lot of
 people, though they usually won't admit it, drugs are a crutch. (And, only
 for this reason, I personally consider weed a drug.) A crutch so that they
 don't have to deal with very painful personal issues; A lot of use is
 "self-medicating". Instead of perscription drugs and psych treatment,
people
 turn to weed, cocaine, or heroin. The problem, thus, goes untreated, and the
 addiction doesn't cure it. The problem grows, leading to further use, and on
 and on. It's a vicious cycle, and not pleasant at all to watch.
 
       4. Getting clean:
It's not easy. Slam that home. Even observing people
 getting clean...It takes a lot of strength to get clean, enough that most
 people, without a lot of support, can't do it. (The prime reason groups like
 AA and NA exist is to provide that support. Without it, it usually doesn't
 happen.) Even with that support, it's pure hell. Usually, when you use and
 are addicted, your life becomes oriented around it; Your friends, your
 relationships...everything revolves around using. When you get clean, all of
 that has to go. Your life gets shattered into a thousand pieces, and you have
 to rebuild...from scratch. Getting work is hard, and for a runner is probably
 doubly-so; Who would trust someone who's used with dangerous work that needs
 to be kept quiet? Not many people. Getting friends is hard; Usually, your use
 provided that connection. Romantic relationships are REALLY hard, because
 it's hard to find a drug user who doesn't get their confidence from their
 drugs, and without that confidence, most people aren't attracted to you.
 
 OK, I'm done.
 
 John</HTML>

--part1_6a.e86f30b.2841cee3_boundary--

From:	shadowrn@*******.com (shadowrn@*******.com)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Sat May 26 23:30:01 2001

Message no. 13 In a message dated 5/26/01 11:01:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, chomig@***.edu
writes:

Feel free to comment on this, I just pulled this up out of nothing but
experience, watching friends dive into the downward spiral of addiction,
the M&M rules, and previous research after reading this thread.

I agree with it, mostly. I've heard some real horror stories about coke and
heroin use, and I think you may have understated how quickly addiction (or,
for that matter, ODing) can happen, but mostly I agree. My thoughts on GMing
addictions, especially drug addictions, based off my experience observing and
talking to people either using or getting clean:

1. Do research: By God...it helps SOOO much to have researched it. Talk
to people who've 'been there', if you can, even. After enough group therapy
sessions with kids who've been through drug addiction, I can describe quite
well to my players just how painful withdrawal is. How...painful the crash
from a high can be. From my own experience, I can describe the utter PAIN
that is coming off of a stimulant.

2. Let the darkness flow: Depends on the group, but emphasize the
seediness of BTL and drug use in most circumstances. What does getting drugs
these days consist of? Well, for the people I've talked to, it consisted of
heading into some of the worst areas they ever visited, meetings they weren't
sure they'd walk out of in one piece with typically armed dealers (we're
talking knives and switchblades here, not guns), and then a high that didn't
last too long, really.

3. It only goes downhill...: Gabe can probably echo this...once someone
gets addicted, it's...difficult to pull them out. For a lot of people, though
they usually won't admit it, drugs are a crutch. (And, only for this reason,
I personally consider weed a drug.) A crutch so that they don't have to deal
with very painful personal issues; A lot of use is "self-medicating". Instead
of perscription drugs and psych treatment, people turn to weed, cocaine, or
heroin. The problem, thus, goes untreated, and the addiction doesn't cure it.
The problem grows, leading to further use, and on and on. It's a vicious
cycle, and not pleasant at all to watch.

4. Getting clean: It's not easy. Slam that home. Even observing people
getting clean...It takes a lot of strength to get clean, enough that most
people, without a lot of support, can't do it. (The prime reason groups like
AA and NA exist is to provide that support. Without it, it usually doesn't
happen.) Even with that support, it's pure hell. Usually, when you use and
are addicted, your life becomes oriented around it; Your friends, your
relationships...everything revolves around using. When you get clean, all of
that has to go. Your life gets shattered into a thousand pieces, and you have
to rebuild...from scratch. Getting work is hard, and for a runner is probably
doubly-so; Who would trust someone who's used with dangerous work that needs
to be kept quiet? Not many people. Getting friends is hard; Usually, your use
provided that connection. Romantic relationships are REALLY hard, because
it's hard to find a drug user who doesn't get their confidence from their
drugs, and without that confidence, most people aren't attracted to you.

OK, I'm done.

John

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Sun May 27 06:20:15 2001

Message no. 14 According to Allen Smith, on Sun, 27 May 2001 the word on the street was...

> A lot of the problem, in other words, is the rule for Addiction and
> Tolerance ratings going up so fast. If that happened in real life,
> we'd have people ODing after less than a year of being on most drugs!
> About the only modern-day drug that I know of that even comes _close_
> to these rules is crack cocaine. No insult intended, but I think the
> designers were listening a bit too much to War on (Some) Drugs
> propaganda...

At least we can be glad these rules are better than those in Shadowtech.
With those, once you were addicted you were just about guaranteed to be
dead in 10 weeks, unless you managed to kick the habit within that time...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Who needs that now?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Sun May 27 19:00:01 2001

Message no. 15 On May 26, 9:25pm, DemonPenta@***.com wrote:
> Yeah, I've taken ritalin too...Even with Provigil, a narcolepsy

Of course, another result of the War on (Some) Drugs has been to
suppress research into another narcolepsy treatment, GHB (and related
compounds like GBL). These would also be a godsend to those of us
(like me) with insomnia... (Yes, I know about the problems with
GHB. They're in three categories. One, the proper dosage range is
unfortunately pretty narrow, so overdosage and resulting coma is
rather too easy. Two, they activate epilepsy (one way a lot of
anti-epileptics work is by suppressing GHB production in the body;
this may also be why they disturb sleep & cognition). Three, people do
idiotic things like combining them with other CNS depressants like
alcohol! So far as I know, all cases of deaths from GHB and related
compounds are due to a combination of overdosage and mixture with
other depressants.) This has some SR relevance in that one thing that
GHB and related substances do, unlike other sleeping medications, is
to _increase_ REM sleep (or at least decrease the period before it
happens), which could potentially reduce the amount of sleep needed.

> drug I take in place of Ritalin (Tho insurance won't cover...grr),

Ouch! My sympathies. One major problem I personally have with the Drug
War is that I have to go to my psychiatrist for a full visit (can't be
phoned in) once a bloody _month_ for my ritalin prescription.

> the crash is hard.

Ah. I don't get a crash in that sense from Ritalin (or from actual
amphetamines like Adderall), although the variation in my ability to
concentrate can be rather drastic at times.

> I've oft wondered if a crash from heroin or cocaine is similar.

Depends to some degree on the form... crack cocaine is worse about
that than powder cocaine, for instance, thanks to the massive fast
rush and equally massive and fast drop/crash.

> The thing is, Allen...The designers were trying to state rather
> emphatically: Do drugs if you want, but they *will* mess you
> up. Why? Higher potency. More direct effect.

I can see saying this for the performance-enhancing drugs; if they
worked without real problems, they'd be made into bioware (indeed, I
suspect that's part of the origins of a lot of the bioware). (I have
no doubt that someone in SR - possibly more than one group - is
working on bioware that has the same effects on concentration as
Psyche (M&M pg 121), via figuring out what neurons are being affected
for this and implanting ones that are tailored to do this
permanently.) The same for recreational drugs that are meant to
emulate today's hard drugs, although even there I'd say it's
overboard. But the system really doesn't work right for anything
else...

> Part of it is, yeah, propaganda, but that's to save their asses from
> screams of "THESE SATANIC GAMERS ARE PROMOTING DRUG USE BY MY LITTLE
> JOHNNY!"

I am reminded of T$R's (or was it WotC's) attempted elimination of
demons and devils from AD&D... and before anyone starts talking about
jobs et al, I've put my career on the line before by disagreeing with
professors, administrators, etcetera about such things - sometimes
quite publically. I'm currently waiting to see if my response to an
idiotic editorial in Science is going to draw some fire...

> Otherwise? By 2060, drugs are way more potent. While it's hard to OD
> on weed (I oughta know. Have a few friends that use it.),

I've seen someone do it once, using a bong. The silly idiot didn't
realize it was possible... I informed him afterwards that it's
possible to OD on _water_ (water intoxication). In case anyone's
wondering, the effects are psychological only... fear, for instance.

> it's not hard to OD on heroin, or speed, or crack; Primarily, those
> are the drugs it's meant to simulate.

Umm... for most of those, most OD cases are of two types (sometimes a
combination of the two). Either the person's gotten ahold of a batch
that's a lot more potent than they're used to, or they've just gotten
out of jail or whatever and their tolerance is way down from what it
used to be (and what they think it is!). BTW, the second reminds me
about another flaw in the current Tolerance system; people who've
developed a Tolerance to the pleasurable/enhancing effects of a drug
also tend to have developed somewhat (not as much, unfortunately, in
most cases) of a tolerance to the negative effects, and have a higher
threshold for overdosages.

Yours,

-Allen

--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Michael Schmidt)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Mon May 28 05:50:00 2001

Message no. 16 On Sun, 27 May 2001, Allen Smith wrote:

> Umm... for most of those, most OD cases are of two types (sometimes a
> combination of the two). Either the person's gotten ahold of a batch
> that's a lot more potent than they're used to, or they've just gotten
> out of jail or whatever and their tolerance is way down from what it
> used to be (and what they think it is!). BTW, the second reminds me
> about another flaw in the current Tolerance system; people who've
> developed a Tolerance to the pleasurable/enhancing effects of a drug
> also tend to have developed somewhat (not as much, unfortunately, in
> most cases) of a tolerance to the negative effects, and have a higher
> threshold for overdosages.

But that`s not very far from reality, as you can even get used to arsene
by taking small daily doses increasing them over long terms.
On the other hand you take the flaw to be much more sensitive to other
poisons or drugs.

So if you want to eliminate abuse of this rule, just incorporate something
like anaphilactic shock to other substances or increasing potential for
allergies. That would be logical and realistic.

--
Michael Schmidt

Icewolf

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Tue May 29 02:05:01 2001

Message no. 17 On May 26, 11:17pm, Gabe Chomic wrote:
> Ergh. Looking back on this post, my points wander all over the place.

Don't worry about it...

> If and when I need to GM over the addiction rules, I'm customizing them
> to the situation. There are far to many variables.

I'm beginning to agree, although I may work on some changes myself
(modulo time; I will shortly be needing to stop taking a break by
working on SR instead of my dissertation proposal, computer work, et
al); your suggested revisions below look quite good overall, BTW.

> I am in complete agreement that the addiction rules in SR are far
> too severe. And the example of weed is a poor example... many
> people don't consider marijuana a drug in that sense for good
> reason, partially because it's extremely unlikely (possible that
> it's happened in rare instances) that one will become so focused on
> it that one ceases to take care of oneself.

They have rather failed to make a distinction between "hard" and
"soft" drugs, yes. Whether something will be one or the other does
depend on the character, of course - alcohol _is_ a hard drug for
someone with the genetics (and other influences) to be an alcoholic.

> I agree with other posts. Fasa was just trying to focus on the hardcore
> aspects of drugs and trying to make sure characters didn't use them in
> their games...

Although they don't seem to have done this with most of the "Awakened
drugs" - Deepweed (which seems not to be meant for long-term usage
anyway) and Immortal Flower (which had to be made game-balanced
_somehow_) are the only exceptions. The same is true of the
medical-use drugs; stim patches are only really nasty for the
Awakened, for instance.

> for the PR reasons, I think.

See my other post for my opinion on this.

> Last thing FASA needed was
> a parent activist group or similar group saying "My kid's character in
> this Satan worshipping game uses drugs!" or some other nonsense (and
> sorry to anyone I just offended with that, it's a classic example.)

Yes, unfortunately. This sort of thing generally comes from parents
who are so incompetent at it that they shouldn't have been parents in
the first place (I am not, BTW, claiming that I'd be any better - I
doubt I'll be having kids), and want somebody else to blame than the
really responsible people - themselves. The founder of "BADD"
(Bothered About Dungeons & Dragons) is a pretty classic case of them,
as are most of the others running around promoting censorship in the
name of "protecting the children".

> Certain drugs do debilitate you in such fashions, but not most of them.

It also depends on the person... someone who's using speed or alcohol
to self-medicate untreated ADD/ADHD, for instance, is likely to be
doing a lot better than someone who's using them for other reasons; I
know a few people who were alcoholics prior to their ADD being
treated, and they're doing quite well now. The same sort of thing is
true of people treating depression-causing opiate deficiencies with
heroin (although methadone does have less long-term side effects), as
long as they don't get into problems with dirty needles, contaminants,
uncertain dosages, etcetera.

> Furthermore, while genetic factors are strong in addiction, there are
> two other major factors (offhand,) those being personality traits, and,
> IMO most important, environment. I am no expert on genetic influence in
> this situation, the only knowledge I have of it's effects on addiction
> are in terms of alcoholism, but the term 'addictive personality' is very
> accurate.

Yes. The balance between genetic and other factors (most personality
traits are influenced by genetics to the extent of ~50-60% of their
variation being due to genetics, BTW) in regards to addiction is
something that's still being figured out. Somebody with an 'addictive
personality' (from whatever causes) is a lot more likely to have
debilitating effects from not taking care of themselves - see above.

> I'd say that the biggest complication with the abuse rules in SR3 is the
> Edge Rating. I don't think all drugs should have them, while for
> certain drugs they are quite apt. I'd recommend the following, if
> you're seeking to promote accuracy in your campaign and you don't mind
> having the potential of character drug use come into play:
>
> - Making sure that the Edge factor is only applied to 'sessions' of drug
> use. Not per dose. A session is defined as any period of continued use
> with no more than half an hour after the drug wears off before the user
> takes another dose.

Agreed.

> - In all cases, increasing the pre-addiction edge rating by a multiplier
> of at least x3,

Again, agreed. People don't get addicted after 2 uses... although it
might be possible in 2060 to deliberately construct a compound (a drug
plus other components) that _would_ cause physical addiction after
even 1 use. A virus that shuts down some portion of normal metabolism,
requiring a drug to make up for it, for instance, could work nicely
within the existing rules - except that withdrawal would be fatal
(accumulating damage that couldn't be healed until back on the drug).

Another possibility would be Cutters triggered by a too-low level of
some (perhaps inactive otherwise, although something psychologically
addictive would probably work better, and serve as a warning...)
compound, which was dispensed by Carcerands. Every time the person got
a new "dose", it would have both the Carcerands and more Cutters (due
to Nanite Loss, although I suppose one could consider such Cutters to
be Fixed once injected and settled in...).

Jack L. Chalker's done quite a few stories/novels with setups like
this - the G.O.D. (General Ordering and Development) Inc. series, for
instance.

> and reducing the post-addiction Edge rating by a
> subjective (to the drug) amount.

I am curious as to your reasoning here.

> - Reducing the 'drug use count' (in terms of Edge,) by 1 per week the
> drug isn't used at all in that week.

Instead of a "week", I'd drop it by 1 in terms of each "Fix factor"
period instead - if the character's dropping their usage successfuly
(via Willpower rolls), that should be reflected in the 'drug use
count'.

> - Eliminating the Edge feature for certain (rare) drugs. These drugs
> instead should have immense tolerance for a few days after their
> use, and are almost always hallucinogenic. Many, but not all, hallucinogenic
> drugs currently have non-addictive features that actually discourage
> addiction, but those have probably been ironed out by the drug producers
> by now.

They'd certainly try producing versions that were more addictive, but:
A. A lot of the time, this is a matter of mental "addiction" -
quite simply, the intensity drops if you do the drug too
often, but the effective _mental_ tolerance drops off at a
very rapid rate (much more so than the book's (30-Edge
days).
B. In other cases, it's due to a small amount of the drug
(e.g., cannabinoids (like THC) in marijuana) remaining in
the body. If you engineered a version that didn't do that,
someone could still use the original and be satisfied, but
not the other way around. Too much competition.

> - For most drugs, apply the modified Edge feature only to Tolerance.
> For addiction, instead have a Frequency Factor equal to the original
> Edge. If the user uses this drug (Frequency) times every two weeks,
> they have to make an addiction check. If they use it (Frequency x1.5)
> times in a two-week period, they have to make another check and add +3TN
> to any mental addiction ratings. Add +2 to the mental TN and another
> check for every .5 more times.

Agreed.

> - To simulate the factors of environment, a character with little urgent
> to do (i.e., shadowrunner downtime,) who has used a certain drug within
> the past three weeks, and who has access to it (be some form of contact
> or friends who use,) must make a check to see if he decides 'ahh what
> the hell, what else have I got to do.' This check should be rolled
> using ((Intelligence + Willpower)/2), against a target # of [(Mental
> Addiction Rating of drug last checked at, default to base Addiction
> rating) -3]. This check must be performed everyday that the character
> has ample free time for a week after use, thrice a week for the second
> week (unless the character is busy all week,) and twice the third week
> (again, unless the character is busy all week.)
>
> I feel this adequately allows for occasional use, while those who use
> more often risk addiction. The last feature accounts for what I feel is
> a large factor in such cases, and is simply caused by boredom
> (especially when shadowrunners lead lives characterized by intense
> excitement and days or weeks of nothing.) Note the term, 'little
> urgent' to do. A gamemaster is free to define this, depending upon how
> much the character enjoyed the drug,

Mentally addictive drugs can probably be deemed to be enjoyable; if
only physically addictive (e.g., some combat drugs), it may well not
be.

> what he has to do (procrastination
> being an art form,) and personal preference.
> For those familiar with Maslow's Need-Fufillment Model, I'd say that
> this is in the neighborhood of Belongingness and Love Needs, definitely
> above Safety Needs and below Esteem needs.

Yes.

> (After addiction, that's
> right out the window, and the drug goes right down there (and more
> important than) Physiological Needs.)

Especially for physical addiction, yes - it now _is_ a Physiological
Need, after all, _plus_ any mentally addictive effects making it a
higher priority.

> Terming drug addiction rules in weeks or months is, IMO, a poor
> solution. The frequency of use matters quite a bit. A combination of
> both, perhaps, with a sustained average use over a period of time,
> (amount of average use required for a check dependent on the type of
> drug, based upon RL examples.) Websites to research this at are
> available upon request, I don't wish to aggravate GridSec through
> posting 'em here.

I have to agree.

> Finally, a note on your notes on alcohol. I don't think Burn is your
> classic synthahol, being more like a strengthened version of grain
> alcohol (judging from the damage code of 3D stun.)

I suspect Burn is composed of alcohol plus other stuff (stimulants and
opiates or GHB, perhaps? The latter would make overdosage much
nastier, of course).

> Obviously, its addiction factor is reflective of this, and probably
> doesn't apply to the typical synthahol drinker. As it stands, under
> my model above, it's damn hard to become addicted to Burn. To
> rectify this, and accounting for some of the unique characteristics
> of alcohol, if using the model above I wouldn't apply the first rule
> (the session rule) to Burn.

Yes. Vulnerability to alcoholism (in which case I can see either also
not applying the session rule, or adding a physical addiction
component) might be a Flaw (not sure about the rating).

> Finally, if a character is addicted to a drug, it should be a lot easier
> (+3TN) for them to become addicted to a second drug. In most cases, the
> stronger drug will also satisfy the weaker drug's fix factor.

? Things aren't quite that cross-addictive, normally... multiple
addictions tend to be more a matter of increased availability of other
drugs because of contacts, addictive personality, taking other drugs
to overcome side effects of the first (downers to sleep when one's
been taking speed is the classic here), etcetera. Only if it's a
stronger version of the same sort of effects would this
happen... although self-medication does make a difference on this;
someone with ADD who's self-medicating may start out with alcohol and
switch to speed, and the latter will indeed satisfy most (not all,
namely the physical withdrawal symptoms) the need for the first.

Yours,

-Allen

--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Tue May 29 02:40:01 2001

Message no. 18 On May 27, 6:43am, Gurth wrote:
> According to Allen Smith, on Sun, 27 May 2001 the word on the street was...
>
> > A lot of the problem, in other words, is the rule for Addiction and
> > Tolerance ratings going up so fast. If that happened in real life,
> > we'd have people ODing after less than a year of being on most drugs!
> > About the only modern-day drug that I know of that even comes _close_
> > to these rules is crack cocaine. No insult intended, but I think the
> > designers were listening a bit too much to War on (Some) Drugs
> > propaganda...
>
> At least we can be glad these rules are better than those in Shadowtech.
> With those, once you were addicted you were just about guaranteed to be
> dead in 10 weeks, unless you managed to kick the habit within that time...

<Checking Shadowtech> Yeek! Yes, the M&M rules are _definitely_ an
improvement!

-Allen

--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Tue May 29 02:40:11 2001

Message no. 19 On May 26, 11:49pm, DemonPenta@***.com wrote:
> In a message dated 5/26/01 11:01:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, chomig@***.edu
> writes:
>
>
> >Feel free to comment on this, I just pulled this up out of nothing but
> >experience, watching friends dive into the downward spiral of addiction,
> >the M&M rules, and previous research after reading this thread.
>
>
> I agree with it, mostly. I've heard some real horror stories about coke and
> heroin use, and I think you may have understated how quickly addiction (or,
> for that matter, ODing) can happen,

A lot of it depends on the drug... coke and (for susceptible people)
heroin are a lot faster than most.

> but mostly I agree. My thoughts on GMing
> addictions, especially drug addictions, based off my experience
> observing and talking to people either using or getting clean:
>
> 1. Do research: By God...it helps SOOO much to have researched
> it. Talk to people who've 'been there', if you can,
> even. After enough group therapy sessions with kids who've
> been through drug addiction, I can describe quite well to
> my players just how painful withdrawal is. How...painful
> the crash from a high can be. From my own experience, I can
> describe the utter PAIN that is coming off of a stimulant.

I do admittedly have the limit on this of primarily only observing
people who've completely come out of the drug use (for hard drugs, at
least) and are essentially fine now (except for the underlying
ADD/ADHD or other problems (Temporal Lobe Epilepsy, which my psych's a
specialist on, for instance) that were leading them to the drug use in
the first place and are why they're still in some degree of therapy +
medication). About the only thing I've ever been physically addicted
to (I suppose I'm still mildly mentally addicted to it...) is
caffeine, probably as, again, a rather vain attempt at ADD
self-medication (this was before the information regarding ADHD
continuing on into adulthood as ADD came out).

> 2. Let the darkness flow: Depends on the group, but emphasize
> the seediness of BTL and drug use in most
> circumstances. What does getting drugs these days consist
> of? Well, for the people I've talked to, it consisted of
> heading into some of the worst areas they ever visited,
> meetings they weren't sure they'd walk out of in one piece
> with typically armed dealers (we're talking knives and
> switchblades here, not guns), and then a high that didn't
> last too long, really.

Of course, I'm not sure how different most of the above is from the
ordinary life of most shadowrunners! There's also the factor in this
that the power differential (in terms of physical aggression
capability) between your average drug user and drug
dealer today is a lot greater than that between your "average"
shadowrunner and drug dealer of 2060.

> 3. It only goes downhill...: Gabe can probably echo
> this...once someone gets addicted, it's...difficult to pull
> them out. For a lot of people, though they usually won't
> admit it, drugs are a crutch. (And, only for this reason, I
> personally consider weed a drug.)

Depends on the person, as with a lot else. There are a lot of other
things in this category, of course, some more harmful than others. My
dissertation advisor considers belief in a deity or deities to usually
be a crutch, for instance. I actually agree with him that religion (in
general; I've known some atheists who were using their atheism as a
crutch (thinking that they were better than others, for instance)) can
be a crutch, depending on the person. On the other hand, it can also
be a very good thing... or even both at once (see below)!

> A crutch so that they don't have to deal
> with very painful personal issues; A lot of use is
> "self-medicating".

Yes!

> Instead of perscription drugs and psych treatment,

Which can also be deemed a variety of "crutch", particularly if it has
to be lifelong (as tends to be the case with the former). Sometimes
crutches of some sort are necessary...

> people turn to weed, cocaine, or heroin. The problem, thus, goes
> untreated, and the addiction doesn't cure it. The problem grows,
> leading to further use, and on and on. It's a vicious cycle, and not
> pleasant at all to watch.

Seeing someone taking out their problems on everyone else because
they're _neither_ self-medicating _nor_ getting proper treatment
(perhaps because of unwillingness to accept a "crutch") can also be
pretty nasty - I've seen this before, and generally am not willing to
tolerate it in people I'm around. If it's just affecting that person,
I can tolerate it better, but it's still frustrating...

> 4. Getting clean: It's not easy. Slam that home. Even
> observing people getting clean...It takes a lot of strength
> to get clean, enough that most people, without a lot of
> support, can't do it. (The prime reason groups like AA and
> NA exist is to provide that support. Without it, it usually
> doesn't happen.) Even with that support, it's pure
> hell. Usually, when you use and are addicted, your life
> becomes oriented around it; Your friends, your
> relationships...everything revolves around using. When you
> get clean, all of that has to go. Your life gets shattered
> into a thousand pieces, and you have to rebuild...from
> scratch. Getting work is hard, and for a runner is probably
> doubly-so; Who would trust someone who's used with
> dangerous work that needs to be kept quiet? Not many
> people. Getting friends is hard; Usually, your use provided
> that connection. Romantic relationships are REALLY hard,
> because it's hard to find a drug user who doesn't get their
> confidence from their drugs, and without that confidence,
> most people aren't attracted to you.

For someone who's become that dependent, fully agreed. And for some,
it can indeed happen quite fast...

Yours,

-Allen

--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Tue May 29 03:10:07 2001

Message no. 20 On May 28, 6:03am, Michael Schmidt wrote:
> On Sun, 27 May 2001, Allen Smith wrote:
>
> > Umm... for most of those, most OD cases are of two types (sometimes a
> > combination of the two). Either the person's gotten ahold of a batch
> > that's a lot more potent than they're used to, or they've just gotten
> > out of jail or whatever and their tolerance is way down from what it
> > used to be (and what they think it is!). BTW, the second reminds me
> > about another flaw in the current Tolerance system; people who've
> > developed a Tolerance to the pleasurable/enhancing effects of a drug
> > also tend to have developed somewhat (not as much, unfortunately, in
> > most cases) of a tolerance to the negative effects, and have a higher
> > threshold for overdosages.
>
> But that`s not very far from reality,

Umm... the current rules are what doesn't take into account having a
higher threshold for overdosage.

> as you can even get used to arsene

Arsenic?

> by taking small daily doses increasing them over long terms.

Well... that's debated in real life.

> On the other hand you take the flaw to be much more sensitive to other
> poisons or drugs.
>
> So if you want to eliminate abuse of this rule, just incorporate something
> like anaphilactic shock to other substances or increasing potential for
> allergies. That would be logical and realistic.

The problem is that the rule isn't there... and neither of the above
are that realistic, I'm afraid, modulo possibly having contaminants
that you're getting more exposure to thanks to the higher dosage.

Yours,

-Allen

--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (James Zealey)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Tue May 29 19:20:01 2001

Message no. 21 I've lost the quote, but it was to the effect that SR drugs were more addictive because
they
were designed to be so.

If thats the case, then why are Jazz and Kamikaze (both developed as combat drugs by
corps) more addictive than most of the street drugs? (both have a pre addiction edge of 2.

Novacoke as an example has an edge of 5).

I'm pretty sure that for a lot of the drugs, the problem could be fixed with
1) A downtime rule. ie if you're not addicted, then the edge goes back down when you don't

use the stuff. As it is, you can only get the drug out of your system once you've been
addicted, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
2) Changing a lot of the edges for various drugs-they seem to directly correlate with the
advantages said drugs give you, not with what they were designed for.

I'm not sure why the awakened drugs are even in the book. The lead in to them pretty
much says "characters will never ever in a million years get their mitts on
these" and as
such there should probably have just been a blurb which said "magical drugs which
emulate critter powers are known to exist" and leave them to the GM.

____________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE Web and POP E-mail Service in 14 languages at http://www.zzn.com.

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Allen Smith)
Subject:	Willpower and cyberwear/bioware
Date:	Sat Jun 2 05:35:01 2001

Message no. 22 On May 29, 7:39pm, James Zealey wrote:
> I've lost the quote, but it was to the effect that SR drugs were
> more addictive because they were designed to be so.
>
> If thats the case, then why are Jazz and Kamikaze (both developed as
> combat drugs by corps) more addictive than most of the street drugs?
> (both have a pre addiction edge of 2. Novacoke as an example has an
> edge of 5).

Good point.

> I'm pretty sure that for a lot of the drugs, the problem could be
> fixed with
> 1) A downtime rule. ie if you're not addicted, then the edge goes
> back down when you don't use the stuff. As it is, you can only
> get the drug out of your system once you've been addicted, which
> doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

This and a few other changes, yes.

> 2) Changing a lot of the edges for various drugs-they seem to
> directly correlate with the advantages said drugs give you, not
> with what they were designed for.

This is similar to the above regarding Jazz and Kamikaze. I believe
this is essentially a matter of game balance... perhaps a better way
to fix it is to have such drugs not be harmful through addiction, but
through (long-term) side effects: the ones without such side effects
have been incorporated into bioware.

> I'm not sure why the awakened drugs are even in the book. The lead
> in to them pretty much says "characters will never ever in a million
> years get their mitts on these" and as such there should probably
> have just been a blurb which said "magical drugs which emulate
> critter powers are known to exist" and leave them to the GM.

Deepweed is likely to be an exception, at least for Houngan
characters. The rest, yes, unless you're playing an Amazonia campaign
or something... which is possible.

-Allen

--
Allen Smith easmith@********.rutgers.edu

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