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Message no. 1
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Willpower [was Re: juggs juggs juggs]
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:07:39 PST
>> The fear power...a big bonus in my book. Roll 7 dice vs. char
willpower,
>> character has to resist a 7. For most sam's..this will be tough,
mages..a
>> bit easier. That power alone would glean off half of the group. That
leaves
>
>Is this true for all of you? I can think of a total of about 4
>characters EVER in my world that didn't have at least a 6 willpower.

Then that's just pure munchkinized number-crunching in my book. Don't
worry, though. My group is just as guilty. You should see the vapid
stares I get if I ask why Joe Street-Sam has such a high willpower.
"Uhhh... because he was picked on by a mage in high school?"
Oy Vey...
I think willpower, as all the stats, should acturatly represent the
character's aspects. A rocket scientist who has a 2 intelligence but a
willpower of 6? That's just not good role-playing. Now, a preacher
-turned cybered street sam with a willpower of 6? I can see.
Oh, and one question: How does the trolls in your group get over
that -1 to willpower hump? I can figure either a) You don't use
trolls(blasphomy) or b) pain editor(icky).


-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"What, drawn, and talk of peace! I
hate the word
As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee..."
-Shakespeare, Romeo & Juliet(Act I, scene I)


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 2
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Willpower [was Re: juggs juggs juggs]
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:49:47 EST
> >Is this true for all of you? I can think of a total of about 4
> >characters EVER in my world that didn't have at least a 6 willpower.
>
> Then that's just pure munchkinized number-crunching in my book.

> vapid stares I get if I ask why Joe Street-Sam has such a high
> willpower.
> "Uhhh... because he was picked on by a mage in high school?" Oy

I like this explanation. :)

> preacher -turned cybered street sam with a willpower of 6? I can
> see.

> Oh, and one question: How does the trolls in your group get over
> that -1 to willpower hump? I can figure either a) You don't use
> trolls(blasphomy) or b) pain editor(icky).

Not many trolls, but those that have take the max of 5. [I forget
that] ACtually, I think we've had all of 3 trolls....one was a mage,
one had a willpower 2 [one of the 4 or so], and the other had a 5.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 3
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Willpower [was Re: juggs juggs juggs]
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 16:56:27 +0000
In article <19980327210740.5064.qmail@*******.com>, The Vagabond
<nomad74@*******.COM> writes
> Then that's just pure munchkinized number-crunching in my book. Don't
>worry, though. My group is just as guilty. You should see the vapid
>stares I get if I ask why Joe Street-Sam has such a high willpower.
> "Uhhh... because he was picked on by a mage in high school?"
> Oy Vey...

"Because all the lower willpower samurai are dead." is the correct
answer, especially if the character's a 1st Edition veteran.

In First Ed, magic was so powerful (Mana Bolt, Mana Blast, Sleep et
cetera) that without Willpower 5 or 6 your character would have trouble
surviving an adventure against any magical threat.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 4
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Willpower [was Re: juggs juggs juggs]
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:54:40 -0500
At 04:49 PM 3/27/98 EST, you wrote:
>> >Is this true for all of you? I can think of a total of about 4
>> >characters EVER in my world that didn't have at least a 6 willpower.
>>
>> Then that's just pure munchkinized number-crunching in my book.
>
>> vapid stares I get if I ask why Joe Street-Sam has such a high
>> willpower.
>> "Uhhh... because he was picked on by a mage in high school?" Oy
>
>I like this explanation. :)

Because he's tough. It takes some guts to walk out that door when it's
likely someone is going to shoot at you. And it takes some willpower to do
the sort of 20+ hour days that some extraction or surveillance work might
require... And it definitely takes willpower to stay in a fight when
you've already been wounded, and it'd be just as easy to run as to stay and
fight it out. I like the COOL attribute in Cyberpunk, and I think
Willpower is the closest equivalent in SR. Tho' of course a 6 in every
case is still pushing it..

losthalo
Message no. 5
From: "J.G. du Chatinier" <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Re: Willpower [was Re: juggs juggs juggs]
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 20:13:13 +0100
At 11:54 28/03/1998 -0500, you wrote:
<<SNIPPETYSNIP>>

>Because he's tough. It takes some guts to walk out that door when it's
>likely someone is going to shoot at you. And it takes some willpower to do
>the sort of 20+ hour days that some extraction or surveillance work might
>require... And it definitely takes willpower to stay in a fight when
>you've already been wounded, and it'd be just as easy to run as to stay and
>fight it out. I like the COOL attribute in Cyberpunk, and I think
>Willpower is the closest equivalent in SR. Tho' of course a 6 in every
>case is still pushing it..
>
>losthalo
**
Personally, I think it's based on the characters personality. sorry, let me
refrase that. It _should_ be based on the characters personality. And for
the above reasons, most Street Sam's would have at least a medium willpower,
if not higher. Going on when hit is indeed a question of willpower.

Just my .02

Jod
chatin@*******.nl
http://www.euronet.nl/users/chatin/index.htm
IDM

Vita Brevis
Message no. 6
From: Wafflemiesters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Willpower [was Re: juggs juggs juggs]
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 13:58:01 -0600
("Paul J. Adam" , Sat 10:56)
<snip high will samurai the majority>
> > Then that's just pure munchkinized number-crunching in my book. Don't
> >worry, though. My group is just as guilty. You should see the vapid
> >stares I get if I ask why Joe Street-Sam has such a high willpower.
> > "Uhhh... because he was picked on by a mage in high school?"
> > Oy Vey...
>
> "Because all the lower willpower samurai are dead." is the correct
> answer, especially if the character's a 1st Edition veteran.
>
> In First Ed, magic was so powerful (Mana Bolt, Mana Blast, Sleep et
> cetera) that without Willpower 5 or 6 your character would have trouble
> surviving an adventure against any magical threat.
>

Its still that way in 2nd edition- is the first even WORSE?

To an extent, "munchkinized number-crunching" is validated by survival
of the fittest and selection for the smartest- if you live long enough
to become a runner, and know anything about the dangers you will face,
you are probably pretty butch, or at least no sucker.
"Munchkinizing" would more apply to bending the rules, and doing things
with no regard for the GM and other players enjoymentof the game.
"Number crunching" would more often apply to figuring out how, given
available limits, a character is likely to survive and what lets him do
it. Its giving your character an "edge", in the shadowtalk sense of the
word, instead of slapping together a random list of stats. Where it
gets its bad name is when folks only consider combat and such, and don't
"numbercrunch" to get a well rounded, truely viable character.
Or, of course, give any character no personality whatsoever.

Given how the rules stand, and the danger and stress faced by runners,
I'd expect to see a special reason why a character did NOT have a 5+
willpower. They would need a pretty special personality to go into the
business of risking life limb for cash without a lot of guts. Or maybe
a really low intellegence :)

Mongoose
Message no. 7
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Willpower [was Re: juggs juggs juggs]
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 22:30:37 +0100
In article <351EA7C9.3DB2@**********.net>, Wafflemiesters
<evamarie@**********.NET> writes
>("Paul J. Adam" , Sat 10:56)
>> "Because all the lower willpower samurai are dead." is the correct
>> answer, especially if the character's a 1st Edition veteran.
>>
>> In First Ed, magic was so powerful (Mana Bolt, Mana Blast, Sleep et
>> cetera) that without Willpower 5 or 6 your character would have trouble
>> surviving an adventure against any magical threat.
>>
>
>Its still that way in 2nd edition- is the first even WORSE?

Put it this way: a magician with Sorcery (Spellcasting) 7, casting Mana
Bolt at Force 1 could put eight dice into a spell, with your Willpower
as target, base damage Serious and Staging of 1.

You resisted with Willpower, looking for the magician's Sorcery skill or
appropriate concentration/specialisation.

So, if your Willpower is 3, you're basically dead: magician gets four
successes, and you have damn-all chance of staging it back down.

Oh, yeah, the magician needs to resist Drain, at (Force)S1. Big deal,
with Force 1.


2nd Edition was _much_ more balanced. Magicians were still powerful, but
were now less utterly lethal to all mundanes everywhere.


>To an extent, "munchkinized number-crunching" is validated by survival
>of the fittest and selection for the smartest- if you live long enough
>to become a runner, and know anything about the dangers you will face,
>you are probably pretty butch, or at least no sucker.
>"Munchkinizing" would more apply to bending the rules, and doing things
>with no regard for the GM and other players enjoymentof the game.

I draw two lines. There's "optimising a character" - high Willpower, and
stats and gear and skills that help him or her in their chosen
profession, but "penalised" in places by background and history and
personality: irrational preferences and prejudices, character traits,
and so on. For instance, the guy had a rifle jam on him once at a
critical moment, and now he won't touch anything except Kalashnikov:
sure, they're crude, no toys, no mods, but they _don't jam_!

Then there's powergaming, which consists of pressing the rules to their
limits to maximise the character in a given area. Classic example is the
"Priority A On Attributes Samurai" - Quickness, Intelligence and
Willpower all at 5, Strength and Body at 5, Charisma at 2: Firearms 6,
Armed Combat 6, Street Etiquette 7, Stealth 6. Weapons selected by
statistics, cyber carefully maxed out, et cetera...


Then there's munchkinism, which is going beyond the rules without
agreement. (Stretching them by consent is fine, that's what house rules
are for, but munchkins come out with surprising gems).

"But my last GM let me have that spell... but my character's defaulted
to Firearms B/R and converted his Panther to fire full-auto... but he's
got a quickened Conceal Missile Launcher spell on the weapon... but I've
got Damien Knight as a contact, so I don't worry about Availability or
price for any Ares gear, like _all_ the stuff in the Street Samurai
Catalogue, I can get it for free whenever I want..."



>"Number crunching" would more often apply to figuring out how, given
>available limits, a character is likely to survive and what lets him do
>it. Its giving your character an "edge", in the shadowtalk sense of the
>word, instead of slapping together a random list of stats. Where it
>gets its bad name is when folks only consider combat and such, and don't
>"numbercrunch" to get a well rounded, truely viable character.
>Or, of course, give any character no personality whatsoever.

The line between "designing a survivable and sensible character" and
"powergaming". It can be quite thin.


>Given how the rules stand, and the danger and stress faced by runners,
>I'd expect to see a special reason why a character did NOT have a 5+
>willpower. They would need a pretty special personality to go into the
>business of risking life limb for cash without a lot of guts. Or maybe
>a really low intellegence :)

I'd tend to agree. The weak-willed quit or die.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 8
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Willpower [was Re: juggs juggs juggs]
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:26:46 PST
>At 04:49 PM 3/27/98 EST, you wrote:
>>> >Is this true for all of you? I can think of a total of about 4
>>> >characters EVER in my world that didn't have at least a 6
willpower.
>>>
>>> Then that's just pure munchkinized number-crunching in my book.
>>
>>> vapid stares I get if I ask why Joe Street-Sam has such a high
>>> willpower.
>>> "Uhhh... because he was picked on by a mage in high school?" Oy
>>
>>I like this explanation. :)
>
>Because he's tough.

I like these detailed explainations. At any rate, you all are
missing my point. Which is if you character is going to have a strenth
in any stat- it should fit his character and background.

-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"What, drawn, and talk of peace! I
hate the word
As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee..."
-Shakespeare, Romeo & Juliet(Act I, scene I)


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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