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Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Wired Reflexes and Base Time
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:15:33 -0700
Do you think enhanced reflexes should affect the base time of
skills?

For example, lets say a PC is trying to pick a rating 4 lock and the
base time for picking the lock is 60 seconds. Normally the base time
is divided by the number of successes.

However, I was thinking that this should be further modified if the
character has additional initiative dice.

So, divide the base time for a test by the successes plus initiative
dice minus 1 (Time = Base Time/(Successes + Initiative Dice - 1)).

If the PC in the example had an initiative of 7+4d6 and rolled 3
successes the actual time to pick the lock would be (60/(3+4-1))...
10 seconds. Whereas a character with an initative of 3+1d6 would
take 20 seconds.

With a base time of 60 seconds it doesn't make to much difference.
But lets say you've got a surgeon that is rigged to his operating
equipment, giving him 2 extra initiative dice. For an operation with
base time of 8 hours, if he rolls 3 success he can get the job done
in a little over an hour and a half. Without those two extra dice it
would take him a little over 2 and a half hours.

What do you think?

-David
--
"Laugh and grow strong."
- St. Ignatius of Loyola
--
ShadowRN GridSec: Enforcer Division
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 2
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Wired Reflexes and Base Time
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:31:39 -0500
At 12:15 PM 2/25/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Do you think enhanced reflexes should affect the base time of
>skills?
>
<snip>
>
>So, divide the base time for a test by the successes plus initiative
>dice minus 1 (Time = Base Time/(Successes + Initiative Dice - 1)).
>
>If the PC in the example had an initiative of 7+4d6 and rolled 3
>successes the actual time to pick the lock would be (60/(3+4-1))...
>10 seconds. Whereas a character with an initative of 3+1d6 would
>take 20 seconds.
>
>With a base time of 60 seconds it doesn't make to much difference.
>But lets say you've got a surgeon that is rigged to his operating
>equipment, giving him 2 extra initiative dice. For an operation with
>base time of 8 hours, if he rolls 3 success he can get the job done
>in a little over an hour and a half. Without those two extra dice it
>would take him a little over 2 and a half hours.
>
>What do you think?
>
>-David
>

Hmmm...interesting concept. It would fit in with the general concept of
increase reflexes/reaction. However, I'm not sure the human mind could
handle it; by that I mean not only would it be strange, but I'm not sure
the brain could be making decisions quickly enough to keep up with the
body; critical when we are talking about surgery.

How's this for a thought: Using your formula (with the extra dice clearly
only being used to reduce time), increase the success target numbers by the
number of dice added to reduce time.

My rational is this: Sure you can go a lot quicker. But there is also an
increased chance of making some sort of mistake, or at least it increases
the chance of you not being able to catch your mistake before it's too late
and you've moved on to the next thing.

This would also mean that people who are really good at something (skill
6+) SHOULD be able to not only do their job quickly, but also error free,
while newbies with wires only increase their chances of flubbing up by
racing through something.

With that modification, I would feel comfortable introducing that as a
house rule.

Erik J.

"Holy Cow! Baywatch is hiring!"
Message no. 3
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Wired Reflexes and Base Time
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:50:58 PST
>Do you think enhanced reflexes should affect the base time of
>skills?

No, because "tasks" with base times are almostnevr ones where reflexes
play a roll. Picking a lock is in largepart brainwork.
Aslso, you can't genrally make tolls work faster. You can't, for
example, make a sloder gun heat quicker or a dna sequencer run faster or
any such things.

<snipped examples / math>

>
>With a base time of 60 seconds it doesn't make to much difference.
>But lets say you've got a surgeon that is rigged to his operating
>equipment, giving him 2 extra initiative dice. For an operation with
>base time of 8 hours, if he rolls 3 success he can get the job done
>in a little over an hour and a half. Without those two extra dice it
>would take him a little over 2 and a half hours.
>

In the case of a surgeon "rigged" somehow, I'd decrease the TN, allong
the lines of a piloting test. I'd probaly also give extra dice, for
having a much improved surgical suite, computer assistance, and better
medical sensors.

The total surgical time might then go down, because the surgeon does a
better, more efficient job- not because he moves his scaple much
quicker.

______________________________________________________
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Message no. 4
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wired Reflexes and Base Time
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:54:42 -0500
On Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 02:31:39PM -0500, Erik Jameson wrote:
> At 12:15 PM 2/25/98 -0700, you wrote:
<SNIP>
>
> Hmmm...interesting concept. It would fit in with the general concept of
> increase reflexes/reaction. However, I'm not sure the human mind could
> handle it; by that I mean not only would it be strange, but I'm not sure
> the brain could be making decisions quickly enough to keep up with the
> body; critical when we are talking about surgery.
>
> How's this for a thought: Using your formula (with the extra dice clearly
> only being used to reduce time), increase the success target numbers by the
> number of dice added to reduce time.
>
> My rational is this: Sure you can go a lot quicker. But there is also an
> increased chance of making some sort of mistake, or at least it increases
> the chance of you not being able to catch your mistake before it's too late
> and you've moved on to the next thing.
>
> This would also mean that people who are really good at something (skill
> 6+) SHOULD be able to not only do their job quickly, but also error free,
> while newbies with wires only increase their chances of flubbing up by
> racing through something.
>
> With that modification, I would feel comfortable introducing that as a
> house rule.
>
It depends. You have to remember. Their wired "reflexes", surgery is
not a reflex action, nor is building a cyberdecker or programming.
Perhaps I'm just taking the definition a bit hard.
I do agree, that no matter fast you are, if you have no skill, your
just going to screw up faster.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 5
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Wired Reflexes and Base Time
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:44:59 -0700
Mon goose wrote:
/
/ >Do you think enhanced reflexes should affect the base time of
/ >skills?
/
/ No, because "tasks" with base times are almostnevr ones where reflexes
/ play a roll. Picking a lock is in largepart brainwork.
/ Aslso, you can't genrally make tolls work faster. You can't, for
/ example, make a sloder gun heat quicker or a dna sequencer run faster or
/ any such things.

Good points.

/ >With a base time of 60 seconds it doesn't make to much difference.
/ >But lets say you've got a surgeon that is rigged to his operating
/ >equipment, giving him 2 extra initiative dice. For an operation with
/ >base time of 8 hours, if he rolls 3 success he can get the job done
/ >in a little over an hour and a half. Without those two extra dice it
/ >would take him a little over 2 and a half hours.
/
/ In the case of a surgeon "rigged" somehow, I'd decrease the TN, allong
/ the lines of a piloting test. I'd probaly also give extra dice, for
/ having a much improved surgical suite, computer assistance, and better
/ medical sensors.
/
/ The total surgical time might then go down, because the surgeon does a
/ better, more efficient job- not because he moves his scaple much
/ quicker.

Again, good points. It seems it's already part of the system.

Thanks for the feedback :)

-David
--
"Laugh and grow strong."
- St. Ignatius of Loyola
--
ShadowRN GridSec: Enforcer Division
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 6
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Wired Reflexes and Base Time
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:51:14 -0500
At 02:54 PM 2/25/98 -0500, you wrote:

>It depends. You have to remember. Their wired "reflexes", surgery is
>not a reflex action, nor is building a cyberdecker or programming.
>Perhaps I'm just taking the definition a bit hard.

Not necessarily. I would have to say that only physical skills would be
sped up with this houserule; things like spell design and programming,
being almost entirely mental activities, would be excluded. Things like
build/repair, surgery, lockpicking, that sort of thing have a strong
physical component, so they would probably fall into the houserule.

>I do agree, that no matter fast you are, if you have no skill, your
>just going to screw up faster.
>

That's what I was trying for. Surgery and lockpicking aren't reflexive
actions, but according to everything I've seen, Wired Reflexes and the like
seem to make the body faster/quicker in general. That may imply that it
should be possible to pick a lock faster, if you know what you're doing.

Obviously there isn't anything in the rules that even imply this affect
(the speed thing I mentioned seems to be more of a fiction/RP thing), but
on the other hand, I don't see why there couldn't be a houserule for this
that *doesn't* violate the spirit of the game, or unbalance it.

Erik J.

"What a man's gotta do to get a piece of ass in these modern times is
highly ridiculous" -Appollo 440, from the album, "Electroglide In Blue"
Message no. 7
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wired Reflexes and Base Time
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:09:50 -0500
On Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 04:51:14PM -0500, Erik Jameson wrote:
> At 02:54 PM 2/25/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >It depends. You have to remember. Their wired "reflexes", surgery is
> >not a reflex action, nor is building a cyberdecker or programming.
> >Perhaps I'm just taking the definition a bit hard.
>
> Not necessarily. I would have to say that only physical skills would be
> sped up with this houserule; things like spell design and programming,
> being almost entirely mental activities, would be excluded. Things like
> build/repair, surgery, lockpicking, that sort of thing have a strong
> physical component, so they would probably fall into the houserule.
>
> >I do agree, that no matter fast you are, if you have no skill, your
> >just going to screw up faster.
> >
>
> That's what I was trying for. Surgery and lockpicking aren't reflexive
> actions, but according to everything I've seen, Wired Reflexes and the like
> seem to make the body faster/quicker in general. That may imply that it
> should be possible to pick a lock faster, if you know what you're doing.
>
> Obviously there isn't anything in the rules that even imply this affect
> (the speed thing I mentioned seems to be more of a fiction/RP thing), but
> on the other hand, I don't see why there couldn't be a houserule for this
> that *doesn't* violate the spirit of the game, or unbalance it.
>
Hmm..I'll work with you on that. Alot of SR fiction and stories, mention
this speed (Usually combat related however).
Hmm..Not sure if I want you performing surgery at superspeed on me, no
matter how good you are. :)
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 8
From: MKerzel <MKerzel@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Wired Reflexes and Base Time
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:07:21 EST
On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:15:33 -0700 David Buehrer wrote:

>Do you think enhanced reflexes should affect the base time of
>skills?

>For example, lets say a PC is trying to pick a rating 4 lock and the
>base time for picking the lock is 60 seconds. Normally the base time
>is divided by the number of successes.

>However, I was thinking that this should be further modified if the
>character has additional initiative dice.
<snip rules>
>What do you think?

I generally like the idea. But as other have said I don't think that
general reflex enhancements can make you do a job where you
need your brain and calm hand more then adrenaline better.

And like Mon goose said:

<snip>
>No, because "tasks" with base times are almost never ones where reflexes
>play a roll. Picking a lock is in large part brainwork.
>Also, you can't generally make tolls work faster. You can't, for
>example, make a sloder gun heat quicker or a dna sequencer run faster or
>any such things.
<snip>

But I think it would be possible if you use special equipment (read:
rigged tools). A car for example doesn't accelerate faster if you are
faster, but in Shadowrun it does. And in the VR 2 I think they mention
rules for calculating the average number of actions a character has and
use this number for longer tasks when you are tired of rolling initiative.
It would fit into the Shadowrun world that you are faster if you rig
something.
So as a GM I would reduce the time for a given task a little bit, maybe by
rounding in favour for the PC. But If he uses the right rigged tools, I would
prefer to use your rules. This however would require some more rules and
the creation of some new equipment. But then maybe you cannot only
get you weapon in a smarted version but also you electric screwdriver,
your laser scalpel and maybe also the electric lock-pick.
But to make things easier, it would be also possible to grant some
bonus dice to the success test, they would also reduce the base time.

Another related question: Shouldn't a reaction enhancement make a
character run faster? IIRC is it somewhere mentioned that a runner
in a story kicked in his wired reflexes and could run like a rocket. But
according to the rules this is not possible, no matter how fast you are
in combat you can only move ones a round.
Or an I simply wrong and misinterpret the rules?

- Matthias
Message no. 9
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Wired Reflexes and Base Time
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 23:19:42 EST
<snipped the entire argument/discussion, which had good pro's and con's all
around btw>

I do not believe that Wired Reflexes, or any other Reflex Augmentation would
perform such for a reason similar to what mentioned by Rune.

Body Stress.

Remaining at those levels -all- the time that is often needed for longer
physical activities would really torq the body out, IMHO.

However,

Someone brought up the VCR concept and that has potential a person with an
Automated Shop (hey JON! What cost for THAT!!! ;) or better would probably
be really impressive. We use rules here, but they are all House Rules of
course, and as some people have expressed a disinterest in our House Rules...

-K

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