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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Hahns Shin)
Subject: Wired Reflexes and other things (was Re: Synapses)
Date: Thu Feb 21 16:40:02 2002
> I can't see that, the physical recovery time (ie bed-rest while your
> stitches close) must be shorter for Bioware. When you have wires implanted
I was quoting rules from Shadowtech at the time. Sorry.

> they'd have to cut you open and place superconductive cable down your
> spine...etc the addition of an active feedback subprocesser would be even
A superconductive would NOT have any positive effect on your somatic
reflexes, since the "electrical" impulses are changes in chemical ion
concentration. Think battery, not telephone cable. Wired reflexes are often
described as artificial implants that stimulate endocrine and reflexive
responses, rather than "laying down new cable" so to speak. This is why the
reasoning behind reaction enhancers is specious at best (Superconductive
disks? Right). Still, with the essence cost of high-level wired reflexes, I
wouldn't be surprised if something nearly as drastic is taking place (This
won't hurt a bit...).

> more so, after all it's got to go somewhere. Yes the nanites actually wire
> it into your system but nanites can only change what's there, they can't
> create superconductive wire or preprogrammed optical chips, (or at least
I'm
> pretty sure they can't.)
The nanites do not create the implanted chips... I'm imagining these to be
implanted by surgery and connected during the "nanite bath phase". I'm sorry
if I didn't make that part clear, though I'm also pretty certain that if you
create nanites complex enough (say, drone AI rating 3), they can make a
pre-programmed chip, but surgical implantation would be easier to do.
Anyway, the chips would be implanted through transimplant surgery, and
connected by nanites. This would be a relatively simple process, as seen in
the low essence cost of Math SPUs and Chipjacks. It just connects the brain
to a chip. I think the main problem with Wired Reflexes is that it is a
"package deal" by game design and not separated by component parts. The
Smartlink is a good example of cyberware that has component parts that
traditionally has been a package deal, though recent sourcebooks have
changed this. I propose that Wired Reflexes do have component parts that
happen to stimulate different tissues to produce an overall effect. The +d6
to initiative is the random variable and easily explained by increased
stimulation of endogenous secretion of catecholamines in the adrenal (note:
This is similar to, but different from, the adrenal pump. The adrenal pump
is a "pouch" that holds a large amount of catecholamines for immediate
release, much like the gallbladder holds bile). The increases to reaction
would be co-processors that regulate cortisol, growth hormone, melatonin,
and other hormone levels for "optimum reflexive efficiency", converting into
additions to reaction. The reason this isn't identical to boosted reflexes
is that it isn't a one-shot deal... it consists of processors and artificial
stimulators that can be added, removed, and even upgraded. I'll have to work
out the essence costs and component parts sometime, when I'm not studying
for the boards and have a copy of Man and Machine handy.

> With Neural Bioware (especially synaptic enhancement and brain
> augmentation(?)) they have another option, the way it's written suggests
> that rather than opening your spine from top to bottom they either do it
as
> injections (see my original comment) or they implant a "gland" at the base
> of the skull. Rather than replacing the nervous system therefore it
> encourages the body to do the work itself. So not only do you have less
time
> lying around doing nothing but, as my original comment tried to explain,
> less need for physio as well.
<snip a long and rugged explanation>
Physical therapy, you mean. Physio is something completely different to a
medical student, at least this one (lab workup, electrolytes, etc). But I
digress. Your reasoning for the cyberware version is sound, except for the
fact that, by the very nature of being artificial and computer-controlled,
wired reflexes can be "tweaked" very easily (much like a software control
panel settings), allowing an easier recovery period (theoretically, of
course, in the capable hands of a cyberimplant doc or therapist). This is
done all the time in dialysis, with the filtration calibrated to match the
level of renal failure. Granted, we haven't created an artificial kidney yet
(working on it), but the concept is similar.

The description of bioware, from Shadowtech, is that a whole organ is grown
from a host body, but it is not "developed" inside the prospective patient.
They may use the patient's germ cells to create a clonal organ, but it still
must be grown in vitro rather than in vivo. The organ is created, and then
afterwords it is implanted, rather than the other way around. Specialized
treatments, of course, can vary (skin modifications come to mind), but most
of the descriptions of neuralware point to gray or white matter being
vat-grown then implanted directly into the brain, and then a long, drawn out
integration period occurs. Of course, the original culprit of this
discussion, the synaptic accelerator, is vague (deliberately, it seems)
saying that something is implanted that "encourages nerves to grow and
replicate". Whether this is stem cells that stimulate growth or a gland that
produces a disseminated synthetic version of nerve growth factor remains to
be seen. So for your example, yes, the synaptic accelerator may work like
that. But not all bioware, and certainly not most neural bioware. Also, if I
had a patient into whom I injected or implanted something that makes cells
grow and run amok, I wouldn't let that patient out on the street just yet
(think cancer). What if the nerves didn't stop? Neuroblastomas,
neurofibromas, cerebral edema, and increased intracranial pressure... I can
think of many horrible things that could happen.

Foreign tissue is often rejected by host bodies... heck, even CLONAL tissue
has been rejected in experimental studies. Something happens during mitotic
replication and differentiation that turns on "self" and "non-self"
awareness, and this is integrated in normal animal homeostasis (not the
correct term, but it will suffice for now). I'm sure part of the process of
bioware integration includes chemotherapy and nanite regimens until the body
finally accepts the tissue. To put the debate in another way (a current
example, if you will), a pacemaker implant is relatively simple and
uncomplicated to recover from. Bypass surgery, even laparoscopic procedures,
take longer, even though the comparable surgery procedures and risks are
similar. It seems counterintuitive that the body will more readily accept a
piece of plastic than it will living tissue, but it has to take time to
"integrate" the tissue, whereas artificial parts are merely "ignored"
or
"irritating" to the body. At most, the body will form a fibrous connective
tissue capsule around it and go on its merry way.

Hahns Shin, MS II
Budding cybersurgeon
"Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know
that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed."
-G. K. Chesterton
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (James Zealey)
Subject: Wired Reflexes and other things (was Re: Synapses)
Date: Fri Feb 22 00:25:03 2002
----------------From Hahns Shin----------------
A superconductive would NOT have any positive effect on your somatic reflexes, since the
"electrical" impulses are changes in chemical ion concentration. Think battery,
not telephone cable. Wired reflexes are often described as artificial implants that
stimulate endocrine and reflexive responses, rather than "laying down new cable"
so to speak. This is why the reasoning behind reaction enhancers is specious at best
(Superconductive disks? Right). Still, with the essence cost of high-level wired reflexes,
I wouldn't be surprised if something nearly as drastic is taking place (This
won't hurt a bit...).
-----------------------------------------------

I contend that wired reflexes are in fact closer to laying down new cable - you take the
ion concentration at one end, convert to pure electric/optical impulses for transport and
convert back to ion concentrations (or not - you can directly stimulate muscles with
current) at the far end. IIRC this results in a pretty amazing increase in the speed that
a nerve impulse travels. The significant reduction of delay in the feedback loop will
greatly improve the positional accuracy of the system, assuming the processor (your brain)
can compensate, and I think we all agree that the brain is capable of doing so.

This is the most simplistic system I can think of. It has the added benefit that if the
positional control on your limbs is sufficiently accurate, the use of the brain as a
control system can be scaled back somewhat - your brain doesn't have to keep double
checking that an arm went to a certain place, and depending on the level of processing
performed, the arm may be able to compensate for external factors (extra load, change in
forces relating to gravity, new cyberarm muscles etc) without the brain having to. If you
really wanted to, you could probably also do stuff like overdrive muscles for
"safe" periods, automatically run muscles up to prevent sports injuries etc.

More complex than that, we have the possibility of implanting positional sensors at
appropriate joints. This will further reduce the requirements upon the brain - you no
longer have to watch your arm to know exactly where it goes. The huge delays caused by the
human visual process go straight out the window.

Note however that the impact upon the brain is progressively greater as I go down this
list - the first option simply uses the existing system with a better control loop - it
will take the time as hahns suggested is needed for recovery from injury (would a
localised "neural reset" drug help with this? Selectively resetting parts of the
brain to stimulate forging of new connections?). The final solution includes integrating
new senses into your brain - although shadowrun tech seems to be capable of doing this to
some extent.

Boosted reflexes is different - I see that as simply altering the structure of nerves so
they don't rely on the chemical release method. Suppose you to were change a neuron so
that it released the chemical AND had a direct electrical connection to the next neuron?
It would have an impact similar to the wired reflexes in my first example, but would be a
far less invasive process to go through as you don't have to cope with each neural pathway
as a seperate and unique entity.

The bioware synapse thingies are described as bulking up the neural tissue - I've a vague
feeling that nerves don't work like that. You can't increase transmission speed by
decreaseing resistance - or can you hahns?


"Your gun has 'replica'
written down the side, mine
has 'Ares HVAR'..."

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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Wired Reflexes and other things (was Re: Synapses)
Date: Fri Feb 22 05:35:02 2002
>From: "Hahns Shin" <Hahns_Shin@*******.com>
>A superconductive would NOT have any positive effect on your somatic
>reflexes, since the "electrical" impulses are changes in chemical ion
>concentration. Think battery, not telephone cable. Wired reflexes are often
>described as artificial implants that stimulate endocrine and reflexive
>responses, rather than "laying down new cable" so to speak.

Yes the communication across synapses is chemical but isn't the transmission
through the individual nerve cell electrical, splice cable between the top
half of a nerve at the base of the skull and the bottom half of one in your
foot and you cut reaction time drasically; That's the way I see it working
(if it did)


> > less need for physio as well.
><snip a long and rugged explanation>
>Physical therapy, you mean. Physio is something completely different to a
>medical student, at least this one (lab workup, electrolytes, etc).

Whether "physio" is out of date or what I don't know but I'd call it
Physiotherapy, physio for short.


but it is not "developed" inside the prospective patient.

The implication for the brain augmentation in M&M:C certainly suggests in
vivo. Are we just having one of those arguements where we're both right
according to different books?


>Also, if I
>had a patient into whom I injected or implanted something that makes cells
>grow and run amok, I wouldn't let that patient out on the street just yet
>(think cancer). What if the nerves didn't stop? Neuroblastomas,
>neurofibromas, cerebral edema, and increased intracranial pressure... I can
>think of many horrible things that could happen.

Maybe not but
a: you aren't a dodgy street doc who has to work for crash cart most of the
time and implanting to bring in the extra cash,
b: you don't have a stir crazy runner in your workplace, ("how many times
can he clean those guns, oh no, he's checking his explosives again...")
and c: the initial point was how long it would take to retrain your body to
act under enhanced reflexes. ie was the recovery time mostly physio... (see
above ;-) )


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