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Message no. 1
From: kimgoyret@*****.es (Jong-Won Kim)
Subject: Wireless Hacking & Cybertech
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 20:08:55 -0500 (CDT)
> I haven't
> really seen the book but now I'm scared I'll find
> more of these
> shockers like wireless hackable smartlinks.
>

One thing to remember about hacking wireless
smartlinks is their very short range and the time it
might take to do so. If you don't like it, stick to
the classic one (though you won't be able to
lock/unlock the safety at a distance, for example...
useful if someone takes your weapon).


> What I really need to see
> is what kind of
> countermeasures and restrictions on this wireless
> net exists. The
> impression I get is very little security is set up
> against it (the
> second logic breakdown I see with it) and the world
> in general (not the
> big corps per say) is oblivious to "outside"
> interference (that's more
> utopian and naive than cyberpunk in outlook). And
> wireless cyber???
> Why???
>

Why? Well, for example, that way it's probably cheaper
and better to send data between a cyberlimb and your
headware, rather than implanting you with the
necessary linking cables.

(Interesting thought: modular cyberlimbs... IIRC some
comic book character had this... something for the
Augmentation SB? :)


> The other thing that bothers me right now is
> hearing about a "create
> your own tradition" rules. I don't know what
> guidelines are given but
> an open ended creation system just weakens
> background. The Shamans and
> the Hermetic orders learned Shadowrun's magic first
> because the were
> following an existing method. It has a history.
> Magic may be (is)
> shaped by popular belief, but it is popular (upheld
> by a great many as
> true). No single person or tiny group can make a new
> tradition because
> they want to believe it. First and foremost Gater is
> a Street Totem
> because enough people believe that alligators are in
> the sewers (at
> least to some degree), not because that one urban
> shaman wants to
> believe.
>

I think you're getting confused here, but the best I
can do for you in this case is to read that part for
yourself (I know, I know, cheesy). It's not the bad
thing you think it is.


> I probably have a question about every part of SR4
> since it all
> changed. Magic, Tech, History, and What they've
> done to the South if
> they screwed with Calli for no good reason.
>
>

The South (I guess you mean the CAS) is not mentioned
as undergoing major changes between 2065 and 2070.

Hope that helps, though my best advise is to see the
book/pdf for yourself with an open mind. :)

Saludos,
Jong-Won

"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."
-Alfred Tennyson, "Ulysses"

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 2
From: pb3209@****.utah.edu (Jamison Cooper-Leavitt)
Subject: Wireless Hacking & Cybertech
Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 22:55:47 -0600
Jong-Won Kim wrote:

>>I haven't
>>really seen the book but now I'm scared I'll find
>>more of these
>>shockers like wireless hackable smartlinks.
>>
>>
>>
>
>One thing to remember about hacking wireless
>smartlinks is their very short range and the time it
>might take to do so. If you don't like it, stick to
>the classic one (though you won't be able to
>lock/unlock the safety at a distance, for example...
>useful if someone takes your weapon).
>
>
>
The problem is that everyone who is a proponent of the wireless SL
assumes that these wireless options are a great advantage. Why not just
have a SL with the Biometric safety? That way you never have to worry
about someone stealing your gun and using it. Also why would I want to
shoot a gun remotely? If the gun is on a table or chair the recoil from
the shot is going to send the gun flying and the shot will have not
accuracy at all. Basically a waist of a bullet and possibly dangerous
to others. Or I can fire the gun remotely when someone is holding it --
how is that an advantage? I have to depend on someone elses accuracy;
the holder will not anticipate the shot very well; and how am I going to
compensate for any environemental factors that are not picked up by the
wireless SL.

All in all, the idea of the wireless SL seems fooey to me since, I can't
see any possible realistics or in game advantage for having one. The
only thing that I see is a super huge security whole that a techno-mage
can take advantage of.

Now I see some tactical advantage of having wireless technology on the
shadowrun battle field. Sharing tactical data between a runner team can
be a seriuus advantage. But there was already technology for this in
SR3, i.e. the BattleTac system, commlinks, RC Decks, etc.

>
>
>>What I really need to see
>>is what kind of
>>countermeasures and restrictions on this wireless
>>net exists. The
>>impression I get is very little security is set up
>>against it (the
>>second logic breakdown I see with it) and the world
>>in general (not the
>>big corps per say) is oblivious to "outside"
>>interference (that's more
>>utopian and naive than cyberpunk in outlook). And
>>wireless cyber???
>>Why???
>>
>>
>>
>
>Why? Well, for example, that way it's probably cheaper
>and better to send data between a cyberlimb and your
>headware, rather than implanting you with the
>necessary linking cables.
>
>(Interesting thought: modular cyberlimbs... IIRC some
>comic book character had this... something for the
>Augmentation SB? :)
>
>
>
>
>> The other thing that bothers me right now is
>>hearing about a "create
>>your own tradition" rules. I don't know what
>>guidelines are given but
>>an open ended creation system just weakens
>>background. The Shamans and
>>the Hermetic orders learned Shadowrun's magic first
>>because the were
>>following an existing method. It has a history.
>>Magic may be (is)
>>shaped by popular belief, but it is popular (upheld
>>by a great many as
>>true). No single person or tiny group can make a new
>>tradition because
>>they want to believe it. First and foremost Gater is
>>a Street Totem
>>because enough people believe that alligators are in
>>the sewers (at
>>least to some degree), not because that one urban
>>shaman wants to
>>believe.
>>
>>
>>
>
>I think you're getting confused here, but the best I
>can do for you in this case is to read that part for
>yourself (I know, I know, cheesy). It's not the bad
>thing you think it is.
>
>
>
>
>> I probably have a question about every part of SR4
>>since it all
>>changed. Magic, Tech, History, and What they've
>>done to the South if
>>they screwed with Calli for no good reason.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>The South (I guess you mean the CAS) is not mentioned
>as undergoing major changes between 2065 and 2070.
>
>Hope that helps, though my best advise is to see the
>book/pdf for yourself with an open mind. :)
>
>
I also find it funny and a little disturbing that the proponents of SR4
keep saying that I need to look at the book with an open mind. Why? Is
the book not goof enough on its own merits? Can it not stand up to
scrutiny of logic, rationalality, and common sense? If I apply any real
world knowledge/common sense to a critique of the book, am I not going
to be happy? When someone tells me to look at their product with an
open mind it is the same as telling me to leave my own understanding,
rational, logic, common sense at the door and take what the developers
on blind faith. In other words it is like saying: Its all good, just
have an open mind about it. This is not an attack at you personally, I
have just heard this argument many times and it makes me all the more
sceptical of SR4.

>Saludos,
>Jong-Won
>
>"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."
>-Alfred Tennyson, "Ulysses"
>
>__________________________________________________
>Correo Yahoo!
>Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis!
>Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
Message no. 3
From: raymacey@*****.com (Ray Macey)
Subject: Wireless Hacking & Cybertech
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 15:16:30 +1000
On 10/5/05, Jamison Cooper-Leavitt <pb3209@****.utah.edu> wrote:
> The problem is that everyone who is a proponent of the wireless SL
> assumes that these wireless options are a great advantage. Why not just
> have a SL with the Biometric safety?

Well for one, that would not allow you to let a friend holding your
gun fire it if needed. Not a huge issue sure, but it's something.
Also, there is the lack of the need for invasive cyberware in its
favour as well

> That way you never have to worry
> about someone stealing your gun and using it. Also why would I want to
> shoot a gun remotely?

It's not hard to imagine a gun used as a trap on a doorway, or as a
distraction. Heck, with the guncam it can be used as an external
camera, even if you don't shoot the thing. Truthfully though, I think
most of those things are mostly irrelevant addons beside the lack of
need for invasive cyberware. ie, make it wireless and remove the need
for cyberware, and now that it is wireless, throw in a couple of added
features

> All in all, the idea of the wireless SL seems fooey to me since, I can't
> see any possible realistics or in game advantage for having one. The
> only thing that I see is a super huge security whole that a techno-mage
> can take advantage of.

Which is why you can disable the feature :)

> Now I see some tactical advantage of having wireless technology on the
> shadowrun battle field. Sharing tactical data between a runner team can
> be a seriuus advantage. But there was already technology for this in
> SR3, i.e. the BattleTac system, commlinks, RC Decks, etc.

I'm honestly very curious what they're going to do with battletac
systems etc in 4th ed. Much of the previous abilities of the system
are already available without it, but I imagine a system designed with
those resources in mind would be capable of some pretty scary
things...

> I also find it funny and a little disturbing that the proponents of SR4
> keep saying that I need to look at the book with an open mind. Why? Is
> the book not goof enough on its own merits?

I think what they mostly mean is don't make up your mind before you've
read the book. Don't go in to it expecting to hate it, and thus
removing your ability to like it. If you have read the book though
and don't like what you see, then more luck to you. No one can ask
anything more of you :)

--
http://cyron.id.au
Message no. 4
From: reynardsurface@*****.com (Pace)
Subject: Wireless Hacking & Cybertech
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 00:39:14 -0500
On 10/4/05, Jamison Cooper-Leavitt <pb3209@****.utah.edu> wrote:
>
> Jong-Won Kim wrote:
>
> leave my own understanding,
> rational, logic, common sense at the door and take what the developers
> on blind faith.
>

Once again, the application of rationality, logic, and real world common
sense is never a good idea in a world where dragons can fire machineguns.
Message no. 5
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Wireless Hacking & Cybertech
Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:20:11 +0200
According to Jong-Won Kim, on 5-10-05 03:08 the word on the street was...

> (Interesting thought: modular cyberlimbs... IIRC some
> comic book character had this... something for the
> Augmentation SB? :)

But that would be a CP2020 rip-off, giving people something else to rant
about ...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'll let you be in my dream if I can be in yours
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Wireless Hacking & Cybertech
Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:20:36 +0200
According to Jong-Won Kim, on 5-10-05 03:08 the word on the street was...

> (Interesting thought: modular cyberlimbs... IIRC some
> comic book character had this... something for the
> Augmentation SB? :)

But that would be a CP2020 rip-off, giving people something else to rant
about ...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'll let you be in my dream if I can be in yours
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: mc23@**********.com (MC23)
Subject: Wireless Hacking & Cybertech
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 07:26:54 -0400
On Oct 5, 2005, at 1:39 AM, Pace wrote:

> On 10/4/05, Jamison Cooper-Leavitt <pb3209@****.utah.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Jong-Won Kim wrote:
>>
>> leave my own understanding,
>> rational, logic, common sense at the door and take what the developers
>> on blind faith.
>>
>
> Once again, the application of rationality, logic, and real world
> common
> sense is never a good idea in a world where dragons can fire
> machineguns.

It is about the suspension of disbelief. The application of
rationality, logic, and real world common sense is necessary for this.
No fiction is enjoyable without it. It is the most basic and core tool
of writing fiction. And if you miss the point, RPG's are just a shared
interactive fictional work.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they
are,
not as they ought to be."
-The Devil's Dictionary, Ambrose Bierce

I am MC23
Message no. 8
From: reynardsurface@*****.com (Pace)
Subject: Wireless Hacking & Cybertech
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 06:46:06 -0500
On 10/5/05, MC23 <mc23@**********.com> wrote:
>
> It is about the suspension of disbelief. The application of
> rationality, logic, and real world common sense is necessary for this.
> No fiction is enjoyable without it. It is the most basic and core tool
> of writing fiction. And if you miss the point, RPG's are just a shared
> interactive fictional work.
>

I agree with you, but I think suspension of belief has a lot to do with
internal consistency. I don't see why, in an awakened world full of magical
hoo-hah, wireless tech is so inconcievable. Personally, I like the fact that
your various gadgets can be messed with. It means you aren't always in an
optimal situation, and can, in fact, be royally screwed if you don't take
steps to protect yourself. that is shadowrun all over, to me, and really, if
you're going to put deckers back into the on-site equation, you need to have
things like hackable PANs in order to make them useful. Personally, I've
been using wireless tech in shadowrun for a long time, my current favorite
character being a rigger/decker/engineer turned cybernetic monstrosity, and
have constantly had to kludge the various systems together to make them
interact. The interconnection of various systems and the simplification of
their interactions works for me. It makes sense, because it's not an
esperanto of differing systems (yet), and from what I've seen, I believe it
will make those situations that aren't covered by the text easier to hack
together.

But the real thrust I get from all this, is that to be truly safe in the 6th
world now, you must be a luddite. You must eschew all technology, internal
and external, and live in a squat somewhere in the feral zones, and that
concept is a beautiful one. If you don't like the wireless bits, don't use
them. There's adequate consideration taken for that point of view in the
book, but you can't have bennies without negatives. That's just my rambling,
7 am point of view.
Message no. 9
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Wireless Hacking & Cybertech
Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 17:01:12 -0700
On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 06:46:06 -0500
Pace <reynardsurface@*****.com> wrote:
> On 10/5/05, MC23 <mc23@**********.com> wrote:

>[snip]

> But the real thrust I get from all this, is that to be truly safe in the
> 6th world now, you must be a luddite. You must eschew all technology,
> internal and external, and live in a squat somewhere in the feral zones,
> and that concept is a beautiful one. If you don't like the wireless bits,
> don't use them. There's adequate consideration taken for that point of view

> in the book, but you can't have bennies without negatives. That's just my
> rambling, 7 am point of view.

So how does this really differ from the present day?
--Anders
Message no. 10
From: reynardsurface@*****.com (Pace)
Subject: Wireless Hacking & Cybertech
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 19:37:31 -0500
On 10/5/05, Anders Swenson <anders@**********.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> So how does this really differ from the present day?
> --Anders
>

Not much, hence why I feel it's not too much of a leap of faith to believe
it in the game.
Message no. 11
From: Nightlife@*****.rr.com (NightLife)
Subject: Wireless Hacking & Cybertech
Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 00:37:48 -0400
At 05:20 AM 10/5/2005, you wrote:
>According to Jong-Won Kim, on 5-10-05 03:08 the word on the street was...
>
>>(Interesting thought: modular cyberlimbs... IIRC some
>>comic book character had this... something for the
>>Augmentation SB? :)
>
>But that would be a CP2020 rip-off, giving people something else to
>rant about ...

Give me 30 seconds. ;)

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