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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:47:09 -0500 (CDT)
On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Ashley Griffiths wrote:

> I'd like to make a poitn here. NO WICCAN'S ARE SATANISTS. Wicca is a pagan
> based religion.

Hell, I can be anal. Wicca is not witchcraft. They are
two distinct things.

'Pagan' is a word that refers to /all/ religions that
are not Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. Buddhism is
a pagan religion, but a strict definition, although
it's not considered one because Christians today
don't really have a grudge against it.

Wicca is a (more) modern religion based on the tenets
and beliefs of the old religions.

> Pagan is the worlds oldest religion (well oldest still surviving anyway) and
> it is about the worship of nature and the protection of the earth (from the
> Wicca standpoint anyway).

Ok, again, just your use of words. Pagan is not
a religion. And Wicca is not an old religion. To
my knowledge, no one practices the actual old
western religions, but rather offshoots of them.

> While im on the subject. what is wrong with satanism. It is a religion
> based on the worship of yourself as an adversary.

Is that one of the tenets? I thought it also
had to do with the belief that you shouldn't
love everyone with no reason (unlike in
Christianity).

> It is not about ritual
> sacrifice or selling your soul to the devil. That is just a load of bulldrek
> made up by mass murderers when they get caught.

Not quite true. Hatred of non-Judao-Christian
religions goes back to the Middle Ages, and the
bigoted beliefs that 'civilization' got from
the Church back then are still with us.

Witches on broomsticks, selling your soul to
Satan, burning at the stake, blood sacrifices.
If you were to go through common culture and
see how much of it is based on racist,
bigoted beliefs perpetrated by the Church in
the Middle Ages you would, to say the least,
be surprised.

But yes, murderers do use pagan religions as
an excuse for their acts. Teenagers also use
them to act out. Hmmmm...strangely enough,
there have been murderers that blamed RPGs
for their acts.

So, really, because of that point alone,
anyone on this list shouldn't pass judgement
without actually reading up on the material.
(I'm not saying anyone is, but it's just
an opinion of mine that I believe is correct)

> A seriously pissed off at your disallusions Dagda Mor

Disallusions...Saying things that don't
reference literature or another art form?

*grin* I know what you mean, but I'm still
replying in Anal Mode(tm).



-Jared Leisner
leisnj48@*****.edu
Message no. 2
From: leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:51:10 -0500 (CDT)
Since I replied to the last message, I
thought I'd reply to this one before I
get dumped on for the same reasons.


On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Simon and Fiona wrote:

> >I'd like to make a poitn here. NO WICCAN'S ARE SATANISTS
>
> Want to bet on that? You think there are no teenage boys who dress in black,
> call themselves witches, and try to call up satan using a ritual from a
> Tremere sourcebook?

They may call themselves witches, but they
aren't Wiccans. From what I (think I) know
of both beliefs, they are incompatible.

> This is definitely not a place to start a religious argument, but there are
> satanist wiccans just like there are satanist catholics, and often for
> simmilar reasons.

Could you give us some names of Satanic
Wiccans? A name, at least. Just one person
who has managed to combine the Wiccan
faith with that of Satanism.

> I think everyone here is well read enough to realise that wicca does not
> equal devil worship, but you should also be world-wise enough to realise
> that every crop has a few rotten apples.

I really think that the rotten apples
saying doesn't apply here. What you're
saying is that there are Athiest
Christians.


-Jared Leisner
leisnj48@*****.edu
Message no. 3
From: leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:53:20 -0500 (CDT)
On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Simon and Fiona wrote:

> Well, Lilith is a woman from JEWISH folklore

He probably recognized it from Sarah
McLaughlin's Lilith Fair tours. :)

[snipped explanation]

Thanks for that. I had forgotten the
origin of the name. All I remembered
was the summary 'the first feminist'.


-Jared Leisner
leisnj48@*****.edu
Message no. 4
From: leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:55:17 -0500 (CDT)
On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Matt Waltner-Toews wrote:

> While I can appreciate the desire to discuss religion, let's stick to
> Shadowrun (at least on *this* list). It's a lot safer. When people start
> saying "this is the way it is in the Universe 'cause it's the truth", I
> don't want to be around for the ensuing dirt kicking. Keep it -Shadowrun-.

Well, Germany Sourcebook has the Wiese.

One question that popped into my head was
whether or not the Christian churches in
2060 had recognized the re-emerging old
religions (Celtic, Norse, Greek, and their
ilk) as valid and not a tool of Satan.

Anyone have answers?



-Jared Leisner
leisnj48@*****.edu
Message no. 5
From: leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:00:32 -0500 (CDT)
I'll probably get the beat down for this, but...

On Thu, 13 Jul 2000 dbuehrer@******.carl.org wrote:

> Please end this debate now, or take it to private email.

This was not a debate. This was a statement
of fact.

Second, you should not single one person out,
especially not me. :)

If you want a thread to end, please send a
general message, or else it seems you are
picking on one person who said nothing
insulting or inflammatory (yeah, it's
misspelled).

Yes, you're the big boss man and all that,
but I'm upset at this message. :(


-Jared Leisner
leisnj48@*****.edu
Message no. 6
From: Spike spike1@****.freenet.co.uk
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 19:05:43 +0100 (BST)
And verily, didst Simon and Fiona babble thusly...
[Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ashley Griffiths <dagdamor@***********.co.uk>
> To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
> Date: Thursday, July 13, 2000 3:48 PM
> Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so
> [OT]
>
>
> >I'd like to make a poitn here. NO WICCAN'S ARE SATANISTS
>
> Want to bet on that? You think there are no teenage boys who dress in black,
> call themselves witches, and try to call up satan using a ritual from a
> Tremere sourcebook?

Those aren't Wiccans though are they? They're just idiots. There's a massive
difference.

> This is definitely not a place to start a religious argument, but there are
> satanist wiccans just like there are satanist catholics, and often for
> simmilar reasons.

Rubbish. Wiccans don't believe in "Christ" or "God" and therefore,
don't
believe in Satan either. In order to be a satanist, you must, by definition
believe in God.


--
______________________________________________________________________________
| spike1@*******.co.uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: Spike spike1@****.freenet.co.uk
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 15:08:20 +0100 (BST)
And verily, didst LDYTinne@***.com babble thusly...
> Pagan is the worlds oldest religion (well oldest still surviving anyway) and
> it is about the worship of nature and the protection of the earth (from the
> Wicca standpoint anyway). I am actually by birth a pagan. Born under the
> gaze of Lileth (which the christians nicked btw) the goddess of the moon.
> She is the mother of all children born, and protector of women from the
> evils of man. ( yes i am a man).

You're talking there as if "The pagan religion" is a singular rather than a
plural. Remember, "pagan" is not the name of a religion. It's a descriptive
term that usually means "primative" or "heathen".

(All it really means is it's not part of one of the big organised religions
like Christianity, Judaism or Muslim. In fact, a few christians would call
Hinduism "pagan" because they have many gods and are therefore
"wrong".)

> In the future please denote your description of the holy year as the
> Wiccan perspective, with a tag line of your denomination of Wicca, because
> quite frankly I am Pagan and have a similar calendar, but not the same
> one. Our year starts at Samhain, for example. Thanks.
>
> >>>While im on the subject. what is wrong with satanism. It is a religion
> based on the worship of yourself as an adversary.
>
> Actually commenting on other people's religion can get you in trouble, I
> advise caution (thus I write to you privately)...

If you did write to me privately, you hit the wrong person. I didn't say
anything in this thread apart from a short 3 liner saying that no pagan was
a satanist because that required a belief in Christ or God.

As I didn't check the headers before hitting reply, I *think* you probably
made a booboo and hit the list with it.

Also, it might be an idea to fix your quote marks. It's difficult to decide
who said what to whome if they're not set up properly.

HINT: Each line of quoted text should have one > per depth of quoting.
Not 5 >>>>> at the beginning of the first line and then none after.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| spike1@*******.co.uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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