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Message no. 1
From: Ashley Griffiths dagdamor@***********.co.uk
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so [OT]
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 06:35:50 +0100
> Global communications are controlled by the people holding the mic. And an
> age-old prejudice might potentially go unnoticed or unblocked. (though the
> fact that we're talking about it even here on a gaming mailing list is a
> good sign...) However, to prove a point about the prejudices. Suppose I
were
> to tell you that there are still people in the world practicing
witchcraft?
> And that not all of them are Satanists? Now hypothetically let's presume
> that the Roman Catholic Church decides to start up the witch trials
> again...?


I'd like to make a poitn here. NO WICCAN'S ARE SATANISTS. Wicca is a pagan
based religion. Wiccans are the wisemen and women of the pagans. Think of
them as the archbishops of pagan society. True paganism is not satanic
either despite what your church or governement might tell you. SOme twisted
individuals try to make it look like it is.

Pagan is the worlds oldest religion (well oldest still surviving anyway) and
it is about the worship of nature and the protection of the earth (from the
Wicca standpoint anyway). I am actually by birth a pagan. Born under the
gaze of Lileth (which the christians nicked btw) the goddess of the moon.
She is the mother of all children born, and protector of women from the
evils of man. ( yes i am a man). Pagan society is based entirely on the
cycles of nature. On a year that has two parts. the first starts on Beltane
(1st of May) and continues until the 30th of October. Then there is Samhain
the day of the dead (you call it halloween) which is not part of the year,
and then the second cycle begins the day after and continues untill next
Beltane.

While im on the subject. what is wrong with satanism. It is a religion
based on the worship of yourself as an adversary. It is not about ritual
sacrifice or selling your soul to the devil. That is just a load of bulldrek
made up by mass murderers when they get caught.

A seriously pissed off at your disallusions Dagda Mor

What was once proved is now only imagined.
Message no. 2
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so [OT]
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:37:36 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Ashley Griffiths <dagdamor@***********.co.uk>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, July 13, 2000 3:48 PM
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so
[OT]


>I'd like to make a poitn here. NO WICCAN'S ARE SATANISTS

Want to bet on that? You think there are no teenage boys who dress in black,
call themselves witches, and try to call up satan using a ritual from a
Tremere sourcebook?
This is definitely not a place to start a religious argument, but there are
satanist wiccans just like there are satanist catholics, and often for
simmilar reasons.
I think everyone here is well read enough to realise that wicca does not
equal devil worship, but you should also be world-wise enough to realise
that every crop has a few rotten apples.
Message no. 3
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so [OT]
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:02:22 +0200
Ashley Griffiths wrote:
>
>
> I'd like to make a poitn here. NO WICCAN'S ARE SATANISTS. Wicca is a pagan

I don't recall anybody on this list saying that they were...


> Wicca standpoint anyway). I am actually by birth a pagan. Born under the
> gaze of Lileth (which the christians nicked btw) the goddess of the moon.

As a christian, can I ask this question? Who or what is Lileth? The
name does sound familiar, but not in any christian context that I'm
aware of.

> While im on the subject. what is wrong with satanism. It is a religion

It all depends who you ask. You ask the kids at the local boozer in
their black heavy metal T-shirts that cut themselves with fancy daggers
("I'm a satanist, I hate god, I'll drink your blood, yeah, cool"),
they'll give a very different answer to those soulful buggers who speak
in careful, measured, reasonable tones and complain to the government
that they're not receiving there share of constitutional protection as a
recognised religion. And don't you dare tell either one that they're
not a "real" satanist

--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com

"As a computer, I find your faith in technology to be quite amusing"
Message no. 4
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so [OT]
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:28:15 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Allen Versfeld <moe@*******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, July 13, 2000 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so
[OT]


>Ashley Griffiths wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'd like to make a poitn here. NO WICCAN'S ARE SATANISTS. Wicca is a
pagan
>
>I don't recall anybody on this list saying that they were...
>
>
>> Wicca standpoint anyway). I am actually by birth a pagan. Born under
the
>> gaze of Lileth (which the christians nicked btw) the goddess of the moon.
>
>As a christian, can I ask this question? Who or what is Lileth? The
>name does sound familiar, but not in any christian context that I'm
>aware of.
>


Well, Lilith is a woman from JEWISH folklore who was created from filth to
be Adam's bride, before Eve. The problem was that she refused to submit to
him (the nice way of saying it, the real reason is that she wanted to be on
top while Adam demanded the missionary position). She was booted out of
Eden, where she got it on with demons and gave birth to all sorts of
monsters, known as the Lilin.
Meanwhile, God said that he would make the perfect companion for Adam out of
his own flesh. She would be an expert conversationalist, always relevant,
the perfect cook, totally understanding, wise, just, never cheats or lies,
and nice to be around whatever day of the month. Just give me an arm and a
leg, and she's yours, God said. Adam thought a bit, then said "What can I
get for a rib?"
Well, that last bit isn't exactly orthodox :?)
Message no. 5
From: Matt Waltner-Toews cheshire_penguin@*******.com
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so [OT]
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 01:21:29 PDT
While I can appreciate the desire to discuss religion, let's stick to
Shadowrun (at least on *this* list). It's a lot safer. When people start
saying "this is the way it is in the Universe 'cause it's the truth", I
don't want to be around for the ensuing dirt kicking. Keep it -Shadowrun-.

>>>[Recursive theorems breed cognitive angst... which is better than a cup
of coffee, sometimes.]<<<
---the Cheshire Penguin(04:16:45/13-07-00)



>From: "Ashley Griffiths" <dagdamor@***********.co.uk>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
>Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so
>[OT]
>Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 06:35:50 +0100
>
> > Global communications are controlled by the people holding the mic. And
>an
> > age-old prejudice might potentially go unnoticed or unblocked. (though
>the
> > fact that we're talking about it even here on a gaming mailing list is a
> > good sign...) However, to prove a point about the prejudices. Suppose I
>were
> > to tell you that there are still people in the world practicing
>witchcraft?
> > And that not all of them are Satanists? Now hypothetically let's presume
> > that the Roman Catholic Church decides to start up the witch trials
> > again...?
>
>
>I'd like to make a poitn here. NO WICCAN'S ARE SATANISTS. Wicca is a
>pagan
>based religion. Wiccans are the wisemen and women of the pagans. Think of
>them as the archbishops of pagan society. True paganism is not satanic
>either despite what your church or governement might tell you. SOme
>twisted
>individuals try to make it look like it is.
>
>Pagan is the worlds oldest religion (well oldest still surviving anyway)
>and
>it is about the worship of nature and the protection of the earth (from the
>Wicca standpoint anyway). I am actually by birth a pagan. Born under the
>gaze of Lileth (which the christians nicked btw) the goddess of the moon.
>She is the mother of all children born, and protector of women from the
>evils of man. ( yes i am a man). Pagan society is based entirely on the
>cycles of nature. On a year that has two parts. the first starts on
>Beltane
>(1st of May) and continues until the 30th of October. Then there is
>Samhain
>the day of the dead (you call it halloween) which is not part of the year,
>and then the second cycle begins the day after and continues untill next
>Beltane.
>
>While im on the subject. what is wrong with satanism. It is a religion
>based on the worship of yourself as an adversary. It is not about ritual
>sacrifice or selling your soul to the devil. That is just a load of
>bulldrek
>made up by mass murderers when they get caught.
>
>A seriously pissed off at your disallusions Dagda Mor
>
>What was once proved is now only imagined.
>
>
>
>
>



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Message no. 6
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so [OT]
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:30:16 +0200
Matt Waltner-Toews wrote:
>
> While I can appreciate the desire to discuss religion, let's stick to
> Shadowrun (at least on *this* list). It's a lot safer. When people start
> saying "this is the way it is in the Universe 'cause it's the truth", I
> don't want to be around for the ensuing dirt kicking. Keep it -Shadowrun-.

You've got a point here... Anybody remember IronRaven?
--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com

"As a computer, I find your faith in technology to be quite amusing"
Message no. 7
From: Curtis Askren vykar@*****.com
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so [OT]
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 02:25:25 -0700 (PDT)
**rant**

This is all I am going to say on this subject, even
though I promised not too...

The term satanist is very abused. In what i have
experianced in most christian and chatholic views as
"Satanism" cover these areas...

1. Wiccans
2. Satanists
3. Devil Worshipers
4. Followers of certain Voodoo religions
5. Idiots

Now, all of the above are considered Satan Woshipers
in most Christian beliefs. What i'm trying so hard
and failing at to say is this: There is no such thing
as satan worshoping. You have 1 through 4 of the above
mentioned, which have nothing to do with that shit you
hear in church. What you see in those kids that dress
in all black, say they drink blood, cut themselves
with sharp pointy things, are idiots. They clam they
are Satanists, say they do rituals from the
necronomicon, are wiccan, and follow the teachings of
Anton LeVay's (massive spelling mistake, shut up, it's
too early) Satanic Bible. Those are what you are
taught. Wiccans, Satanists, Devil Wordhipers,
Followers of the dark arts are actually nothing like
that. People that understand what is taught in those
religions, actually read all of the books, not just
the part on cerimonial daggers and blood rites, are
again nothing like Idiots. Poeple that are starving
for attention, have had very troubled childhoods, or
have some psychosis are Idiots. Once again, as always,
this is a rant, and in Chtulhu's name i hope it made
sense.

Dr.Vyk

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Message no. 8
From: Steve Collins einan@*********.net
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so [OT]
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 00 06:23:03 -0500
On 7/13/00 12:35 am, Ashley Griffiths said:



>I'd like to make a poitn here. NO WICCAN'S ARE SATANISTS. Wicca is a pagan
>based religion. Wiccans are the wisemen and women of the pagans. Think of
>them as the archbishops of pagan society. True paganism is not satanic
>either despite what your church or governement might tell you. SOme twisted
>individuals try to make it look like it is.
>

No "true paganism" whatever that is cannot be "Satanic" because it
believes in am entirely different mythos that the christian one. Remember
in order to be a "Satanist" one must first accept some version of the
bible (otherwise Satan does not exist) and therefore be a Christian (no I
am not making this up it is actually fairly obvious). Calling Pagans
Satanists would be the same thing as calling Hindu's or Buddhists or
Muslims Satanists (for the moment we will ignore the radical right
Christians who believe that worshiping any god but Yaweh is the same
thing as worshiping Satan) because they worshiped different gods from
the ones presented in the Christian Pantheon (Well ok so there are only 2
gods in the christian pantheon but still).

>Pagan is the worlds oldest religion (well oldest still surviving anyway)

BZZZZZT try again. Believe in whatever dieties you like but please know
the facts surrounding your beliefs. You do not need an ancient lineage
for them to be legitimate. Except for a very few isolated cultures
(Iceland, a few isolated villages in the Baltic states, etc) "Paganism"
which is to say nature worship died out in the West by the 13th century
and was ressurected again at the start of the industrial age. The myth
that there has been an unbroken chain of practioners since ancient times
was a lie concocted by I believe it was I. Morganew (I know I spelled
that wrong and I wasn't even going to attempt to remember the first name
at this hour) in the late 19th/early 20th century to give his neo magical
organization (I'm pretty sure it was the Initiates of the Golden Dawn)
credibility. Even Pagan Scholars such as Issac Bonewitz acknowledge this
and a little research with an open mind is all that's required to find
this out. The only thing close to an unbroken line of practice to pre
christian days left around today is the Asatruers (again I have probably
misspelled it) up in Iceland who still worship the old Norse Dieties but
the Asatruers I have met (true not Icelandic so there could be a
difference in the beliefs) tended not to get along with your average
Gardenarian Wiccan


>and
>it is about the worship of nature and the protection of the earth (from the
>Wicca standpoint anyway).

That's the new age version of it. I know many others who think more along
the lines that the earth doesn't need any protection from us puny beings
and it is all about living in harmony with the Earth and Universe. There
never was a Wiccan Faith in History and since it's all been made up (wich
does not mean it is invalidated as a faith, at some point in history the
5 major established religeons were being made up too) there are as many
beliefs in what it means to be a Wiccan or Pagan as there are
practitioners and they tend to take and borrow from various cultures as
it suits them.

>I am actually by birth a pagan. Born under the
>gaze of Lileth (which the christians nicked btw) the goddess of the moon.
>She is the mother of all children born, and protector of women from the
>evils of man. ( yes i am a man). Pagan society is based entirely on the
>cycles of nature. On a year that has two parts. the first starts on Beltane
>(1st of May) and continues until the 30th of October. Then there is Samhain
>the day of the dead (you call it halloween) which is not part of the year,
>and then the second cycle begins the day after and continues untill next
>Beltane.

Depends on which tradition you follow there are some that have 3 parts
and others that have a full 4.

>
>While im on the subject. what is wrong with satanism. It is a religion
>based on the worship of yourself as an adversary. It is not about ritual
>sacrifice or selling your soul to the devil. That is just a load of bulldrek
>made up by mass murderers when they get caught.
>

No it's a religeon based on the worship of Satan, where power in this
life is prefered to getting into heaven in the afterlife. I must admit
that Satanism is the one "new" religeon that I have never met a member of
so I am not as versed on that faith as many others. I'm married to a
druid and have attended many ADF rituals as well as helped found a
splinter Druidic Church off of ADF (long story and not relivant if you're
really interested e-mail me offlist), most of my friends are some variety
of eclectic Pagan (usually Celtic but I know a few American Indian,
Asatru, and Buddhist influenced too) but I have never had the opportunity
to talk to a Satanist about what they believe. As for me I suppose I'd be
a member of CAW (Church of All Worlds, based on Robert Heinlens Stranger
in a Strange Land if you are not familiar with them) if I didn't have
some serious philosophical differences with them.

>A seriously pissed off at your disallusions Dagda Mor

Work on clearing up your own disallusions and getting the facts before
you use that big club of yours on someone else who has a better excuse
for ignorance first Dagda
Message no. 9
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so [OT]
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:11:50 EDT
In a message dated 7/13/00 4:30:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, moe@*******.com
writes:

> You've got a point here... Anybody remember IronRaven?

I do! I do! I do! I don't want to though! Most opinionated person I've yet to
see short of Ivy.

John
Message no. 10
From: James Mick sinabian@********.net
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so [OT]
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:18:42 -0400
>A seriously pissed off at your disallusions Dagda Mor
>
>What was once proved is now only imagined.
>
>


Woah, woah, woah. Calm down there, Chet. I wasn't bashing Wicca. I happen to
be a practitioner myself! (though a little out of practice. I can't find a
teacher.) What I'm SAYING is, it's the same equivalent. Especially
considering that from what I understand people DO still get burned at the
stake! (at least in Georgia...) And it's because of the bad rap the church
gives to Wicca, etc...and also because now ALL witchcraft is given the name
Wicca. It's gone to becoming a stereotype which unfortunately most people do
NOT see as anywhere close to what it actually is, which is how you just
described it!

Geez, I half-expected a religious debate but I seriously didn't think
anybody to mistake what side I would be on in such a debate if it came up...
Sorry if I mislead you into thinking I was against Wicca. Far from it. I'm a
novitiate (not very far, I realize...like I said, my lessons stopped) myself
and usually won't go NEAR a church because of the shit Christianity pulls...

Hence the little Carlin quote at the bottom...thought that would clue people
off if they hadn't figured it out already...


A Non-dillusional But Willing To Read What Somebody's Actually Saying
Instead of Looking For a Reason to Get Indignant And Somebody to Get
Indignant At Sinabian-mun

Now, that we've hopefully cleared that up (not to mention done a wonderful
job of proving how little people sometimes pay attention to the actual
message of the email that's allegedly connecting and uniting everybody in
the world...oh no, nothing slips by people these days...::rolls his eyes and
gives the ol' one-finger salute to Dagda:: THINK next time, before you
react.)
Message no. 11
From: James Mick sinabian@********.net
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so [OT]
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:26:14 -0400
>Want to bet on that? You think there are no teenage boys who dress in
black,
>call themselves witches, and try to call up satan using a ritual from a
>Tremere sourcebook?
>This is definitely not a place to start a religious argument, but there are
>satanist wiccans just like there are satanist catholics, and often for
>simmilar reasons.
>I think everyone here is well read enough to realise that wicca does not
>equal devil worship, but you should also be world-wise enough to realise
>that every crop has a few rotten apples.
>
>
This has strayed so far from the original topic that it's just sad and let
me be the first to apologize. I wasn't seeking to start a be-damned holy war
but merely to use another instance to prove a point. Somebody misinterpreted
my meaning and jumped on it and here we are now... In defense of Wicca, let
me first point out that not all witchcraft is Wicca. Just as not all
Christianity is Catholicism. Wicca is a denomination of sorts (from what I
understand and I'm sure Dagda will more than HAPPILY not only correct me but
viciously attack me if I'm wrong...)

Secondly, children getting the wrong or bad ideas is not the fault of the
source but of the parents for not teaching them any better. (that is, after
all, a parent's job...rather than pointing fingers when bad things they
could have prevented DO happen...) but also, these Tremere books and so
forth are probably teaching the same "all magic is evil" drek that the
church has been fraggin' shoveling on everyone for centuries! So they're not
getting the idea from Wicca, believe you me. They're not even necessarily
getting the idea from actual witchcraft. They're getting the ideas from what
the damned Judeo-Christian society views in the form of witchcraft, formed
by lies, purposeful misinterpretations, twisting of their own Bible, and
perpetuated by Hollywood glamour!

::steps off his soap-box, sets it on fire, and walks away...frustrated with
humanity in general::
Message no. 12
From: James Mick sinabian@********.net
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so [OT]
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:39:10 -0400
One last thing on this while I'm thinking of it and I'll shut up. The
comment about there being pagan Satanists? No pagan I have EVER known has so
much as recognized the existence of Satan. Christianity had a Satan, and you
know what they did? They took the Bible's antagonist, twisted him around,
and made him look like Lleu...part of their anti-paganism campaign. (There
are a few other Bible instances but I'm praying to the gods that this
bedamned thing can hit the brakes...this list is one of the things I do to
get AWAY from headaches!)

Again, my sincerest apologies for getting this thing started. It was not my
intention at all or in the least.
Message no. 13
From: James Mick sinabian@********.net
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so[OT]
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:49:50 -0400
>Second, you should not single one person out,
>especially not me. :)
>
>If you want a thread to end, please send a
>general message, or else it seems you are
>picking on one person who said nothing
>insulting or inflammatory (yeah, it's
>misspelled).
>
>Yes, you're the big boss man and all that,
>but I'm upset at this message. :(
>
>
>-Jared Leisner
> leisnj48@*****.edu
>
>
>
Actually, I hate to say, that yes...this has been a debate. Sadly enough.
It's what it turned into. But, it wasn't aimed at anyone specifically. In
fact, if it must be aimed at anyone, I'll take the blame for this. It all
started with my original posting. I'm sure everyone's tired of hearing about
it by now, but again I'd like to stress that I am very sorry for the
proportions this has gotten to...
Message no. 14
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so [OT]
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:29:05 +0200
James Mick wrote:
>
> considering that from what I understand people DO still get burned at the
> stake! (at least in Georgia...) And it's because of the bad rap the church

You might be interested to know that witches get burned, shot, and
lynched all the time in South Africa - and not by christians, either.
As a white guy, I'm not completely clued up on the situation, but I
understand that the actual traditional healer / witch doctor / medicine
woman (you choose the term) gets left alone because they think she's
helping her (think "White magic" vs "Black magic"), and is often
involved in the witch hunt. It's a lot like the Inquisition, really -
somebody has a run of bad luck, so they go to a religious leader who
finds some daft harmless old girl that talks to trees, have a quick
trial and burn her.

> gives to Wicca, etc...and also because now ALL witchcraft is given the name

I always wondered why wiccans refer to themselves as "witches" - surely
that's just begging for persecution? (As always, I'm open to correction
here, maybe it's other people that stuck them with the label)

--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com

"As a computer, I find your faith in technology to be quite amusing"
Message no. 15
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so [OT]
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 23:06:18 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Allen Versfeld <moe@*******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Friday, July 14, 2000 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so
[OT]


>You might be interested to know that witches get burned, shot, and
>lynched all the time in South Africa - and not by christians, either.
>As a white guy, I'm not completely clued up on the situation, but I
>understand that the actual traditional healer / witch doctor / medicine
>woman (you choose the term) gets left alone because they think she's
>helping her (think "White magic" vs "Black magic"), and is often
>involved in the witch hunt. It's a lot like the Inquisition, really -
>somebody has a run of bad luck, so they go to a religious leader who
>finds some daft harmless old girl that talks to trees, have a quick
>trial and burn her.
>

Yeah, different animal to the average Gardnerian though, just called witches
(see below)

>> gives to Wicca, etc...and also because now ALL witchcraft is given the
name
>
>I always wondered why wiccans refer to themselves as "witches" - surely
>that's just begging for persecution? (As always, I'm open to correction
>here, maybe it's other people that stuck them with the label)
>


It's just reclaiming an old word. The root for witch and wicca comes from
the word wise, I believe. It was the Christians of the middle ages that gave
the word its evil connotations, until anyone who consorted with evil spirits
or did magic was called a witch, much like communism in the 1950s where
commie came to mean bad person. The wicker basket owes its name to wicca
too, if you see the movie The Wicker Man you will see other uses for basket
weaving :?)
Message no. 16
From: LDYTinne@***.com LDYTinne@***.com
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so [OT]
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 09:48:10 EDT
In a message dated Thu, 13 Jul 2000 1:48:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Ashley
Griffiths" <dagdamor@***********.co.uk> writes:

> to tell you that there are still people in the world practicing
witchcraft?
> And that not all of them are Satanists? Now hypothetically let's presume
> that the Roman Catholic Church decides to start up the witch trials
> again...?

Dear Mr. Griffiths,

I'd like to make a poitn here. NO WICCAN'S ARE SATANISTS. Wicca is a pagan
based religion.
>>>Wiccans are the wisemen and women of the pagans.

I am going to try and say this as politely as possible... This is inflamatory in
presentation, implying that other types of Pagans (like me, a follower of the Druidic
Path) are not wise.... and that the rest of the Pagan community are a bunch of ignorant
gets. Realistically I have found that the a great many, possibly more than 1/2 of the
people who are Wiccans are not wise and occasionally are dangerously afraid, ignorant, and
vocal.

>>>Think of
them as the archbishops of pagan society.

Again this is quite inflamatory. They ARE NOT any such things and thus should NOT be
represented as such, for we of the Pagan community who are not Wiccan must bear the burden
of their public mistakes and their impulsive misteps. There are great Wiccan leaders in
the Pagan community that are worthy of note an deepest respect, but please do not lump the
chaf with your finest wheat.

>>>True paganism is not satanic
either despite what your church or governement might tell you. SOme twisted
individuals try to make it look like it is.

Pagan is the worlds oldest religion (well oldest still surviving anyway) and
it is about the worship of nature and the protection of the earth (from the
Wicca standpoint anyway). I am actually by birth a pagan. Born under the
gaze of Lileth (which the christians nicked btw) the goddess of the moon.
She is the mother of all children born, and protector of women from the
evils of man. ( yes i am a man).


>>>Pagan society is based entirely on the
cycles of nature. On a year that has two parts. the first starts on Beltane
(1st of May) and continues until the 30th of October. Then there is Samhain
the day of the dead (you call it halloween) which is not part of the year,
and then the second cycle begins the day after and continues untill next
Beltane.

In the future please denote your description of the holy year as the Wiccan perspective,
with a tag line of your denomination of Wicca, because quite frankly I am Pagan and have a
similar calendar, but not the same one. Our year starts at Samhain, for example. Thanks.

>>>While im on the subject. what is wrong with satanism. It is a religion
based on the worship of yourself as an adversary.

Actually commenting on other people's religion can get you in trouble, I advise caution
(thus I write to you privately)... Actually that is one of two known forms of Satanism.

Brightest Blessing,
Tinne





>>
Message no. 17
From: James Mick sinabian@********.net
Subject: Witchcraft (was RE: Beggining of second land grab)and is now so[OT]
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 11:59:44 -0400
> HINT: Each line of quoted text should have one > per depth of quoting.
> Not 5 >>>>> at the beginning of the first line and then none after.
> --


I don't think they can fix that... It's AOL-style quoting. AOL mail
isn't as mallable or forgiving as Netscape Messenger or Outlook Express
for instance. There is an option to switch to internet-style quoting but
I think the only difference is that then the entire statement as the >
before each line but it doesn't do the depth thing. (I could be
wrong...I try to avoid AOL mail or any other AOL software to the
greatest extent possible aside from having an account and using AIM.)

Further Reading

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Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.