Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	World Map
Date:	Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:32:00 +0100

Message no. 1 In article <3.0.32.19970331133336.006e8f00@****.net>, Zach Hall
<fdelirium@*******.COM> writes

> Does anybody have a world map for Shadowrun? Does FASA have a world
>map?

No Fasa do not have a world map for Shadowrun. They do however have a
map of North America. Not a good one, but it does exist. (back of SRII
hardback manual - don't know about the softcover.)

I guess the reason there hasn't been a map yet, is that the sourcebook
writers and developers would have to actually agree with each other on
what has happened to the world in 2058. If you want some maps of the
world (albeit in some cases _radically_ changed) you could consider the
Rifts series of books, all of which contain detailed maps of the areas
concerning the sourcebook.

>Where the hell are all these little elven nations that I hear about all the
>time (the one that starts with the 'A' in particular). How much land does
>Japan own in Shadowrun?

As far as little elven nations... Sorry I don't care. Elven nations
indeed, they're part of society, we already have two "superpowers" in
Nan-Og and Tairngire, more would put me right off the game entirely.
Damn elves.
<grumble, grumble, groan, moan, mumble.>

Japan owns Japan, Korea owns Korea, and China is still China, until FASA
finally get their act together and stop hinting at things, and produce
some material that speaks of other parts of the world. Unfortunately
the next book due out is an "Art of", yeah like there's been some art
recently worth sticking in a book. :( Alternatively you might want to
consider the PAC RIM sourcebook for Cyberpunk (though that recently
received a hammering from people in the areas it mentioned),
alternatively for Japan, you could pop over to Gen-ichi Nishio's web
site, where some Japanese shadowrun players are assembling the
unofficial Japan sourcebook, after the "official" release was publicly
slammed by players. (It was massively contrary to the hints made by
FASA - making it out to be a world utopia and all round nicey nicey
place).

(I'm sure there's a link on Paolo's Archive -

http://www.interware.it/users/paolo/ )

Excuse my sour reaction, but this is one of my major gripes with SR, the
complete lack of decent maps that let people know how the world is
organised, the effective borders, areas that are inaccessible, and what
countries still exist. A massive lack of updated information that lets
us know what has happened in the world over the four years since SRII,
it all starts in 2054, it's now 2058, and the entire world has stagnated
into "nothing happening" except of course the UCAS, where everything
happens.

My other gripe is the lack of available material for foreigners.
Americans have access to area and city maps free through the AAA, the
rest of the world pays through the nose, and in some places, forget
getting them at all. The city maps that are provided, are faint, poorly
defined and mean little to people outside the area. Until I was finally
able to track down a decent map of Seattle, I had no idea what the damn
place looked like, where were the streets mentioned in the book, where
was the damn space needle and what did it look like?

OK, somewhen in the next 20 years we'll get Australia and Africa, maybe
a decent book on Asia and the Far East, and something to cover the
Russian Federation and Europe, however, for the moment, you'll have to
find a different source, or make one up yourself. Sorry, but FASA don't
seem to like to actually commit themselves to something solid, prefering
to leave things like this to ambiguous comments and shabby hints.

</gripe>

<Going away and eating coffee in an attempt to calm down>

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/

From:	"MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:07:00 +1000

Message no. 2 > I guess the reason there hasn't been a map yet, is that the sourcebook
> writers and developers would have to actually agree with each other on
> what has happened to the world in 2058. If you want some maps of the
> world (albeit in some cases _radically_ changed) you could consider the
> Rifts series of books, all of which contain detailed maps of the areas
> concerning the sourcebook.
>
Very true. If they define an area and then right a sourcebook that
contradicts their earlier statement they look like fools. FASA is fairly
careful about that kind of thing.

>
> >Where the hell are all these little elven nations that I hear about all the
> >time (the one that starts with the 'A' in particular). How much land does
> >Japan own in Shadowrun?
>

Azania, from memory is the old Zulu nation come back to haunt us. Yet
another super-powerful all-elven nation. Fuck I'm sick of them.

> As far as little elven nations... Sorry I don't care. Elven nations
> indeed, they're part of society, we already have two "superpowers" in
> Nan-Og and Tairngire, more would put me right off the game entirely.
> Damn elves.
> <grumble, grumble, groan, moan, mumble.>
>
Hear hear. I'd like to see an Orc nation or two.... there's certainly
enough of them in the game world to justify it, especially if the elves
have managed to form three little racist enclaves.

> Japan owns Japan, Korea owns Korea, and China is still China, until FASA
> finally get their act together and stop hinting at things, and produce
> some material that speaks of other parts of the world. Unfortunately
> the next book due out is an "Art of", yeah like there's been some art
> recently worth sticking in a book. :(

That's only because Elmore doesn't work for them anymore. The rumour is
that it had something to do with an exclusive contract from T$R or
something. I'd have to agree with you though; The artwork inside the
sourcebooks looks pretty shitty these days; Too heavy and unfinished, a
bit like a pre-schooler's finger paintings.

O.K., for the record Japan would be a feudalised society with an
entrenched caste system, ruled by the Corporations, who would mimic the
ancient daimyo's. Not sure where the Emperor would figure in the
society... considering the Japanese reverence for history and culture he
may still be there, with as little real power as ever.

I've formed the impression that most of South-East Asia is a pirate kings
paradise, with little or no central government.

> alternatively for Japan, you could pop over to Gen-ichi Nishio's web
> site, where some Japanese shadowrun players are assembling the
> unofficial Japan sourcebook, after the "official" release was publicly
> slammed by players. (It was massively contrary to the hints made by
> FASA - making it out to be a world utopia and all round nicey nicey
> place).
>
Geez, no surprise. SR players don't go in for utopias. Dystopia maybe,
a bit like the London sourcebook where everthing is nice on the surface
but with a cesspit of a core.

Who wrote the 'official' sourcebook anyway?

> Excuse my sour reaction, but this is one of my major gripes with SR, the
> complete lack of decent maps that let people know how the world is
> organised, the effective borders, areas that are inaccessible, and what
> countries still exist. A massive lack of updated information that lets
> us know what has happened in the world over the four years since SRII,
> it all starts in 2054, it's now 2058, and the entire world has stagnated
> into "nothing happening" except of course the UCAS, where everything
> happens.
>

That's partly due to a change in product line developers, but I know what
you mean. Us Australian gamers have been waiting for the much touted
Australian sourcebook for six years now.

Personally I think that (copyright problems aside) FASA should
tour the web and pull everything off that looks decent and will fit in
their development plan..... it'd certainly speed things up, and most
peiople I know would be happy just to have their stuff used, as long as
they got their name inside the front cover as a contributor.

There are of course, major problems with doing that, but surely they
could give it a go?!!?

> OK, somewhen in the next 20 years we'll get Australia and Africa, maybe
> a decent book on Asia and the Far East, and something to cover the
> Russian Federation and Europe, however, for the moment, you'll have to
> find a different source, or make one up yourself. Sorry, but FASA don't
> seem to like to actually commit themselves to something solid, prefering
> to leave things like this to ambiguous comments and shabby hints.
>
But only if we're lucky, and they decide to stop promoting the American
plot as much.

One major problem is that FASA tries to get local authors to write the
sourcebooks.... if there isn't one for your area, it could be your fault.
Get off your butt and ask FASAMike if there's one under submission, and
if there isn't, consider writing one.

BTW; There IS one under submission for Aus. at the moment, but it's
nowhere near finished due to a major re-write. They aren't able to
really accept any other competing submissions. (I asked)

> <Going away and eating coffee in an attempt to calm down>
>
And that's going to work?

*grin*

Bleach

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Tue, 1 Apr 1997 04:36:25 +0100

Message no. 3 In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.970401095026.17788I-100000@*****.student.gu.ed
u.au>, "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU> writes

>> Rifts series of books, all of which contain detailed maps of the areas
>> concerning the sourcebook.
>>
>Very true. If they define an area and then right a sourcebook that
>contradicts their earlier statement they look like fools. FASA is fairly
>careful about that kind of thing.

Agreed, maybe a little too careful sometimes. It would be nice if just
for a change Mike stuck his foot through the floor and laid down some
ground rules for SR. Like making sure that what they produce agrees
with other materials. So that future publications would either be based
around the ambiguous decker comments that litter their books at the
moment, or at least reflected the world in it's changing form. I would
so much like to see them actually confirm some of their insistent and
endless generalised hints on so much of the SR world. The rather silly
photographs in POAD, concerning Mars, what is the present condition of
Ares/NASA, what orbitals are there, and why. (A space book please -
hell I'll even write it.) :) Little irritating things like their closet
suggestions on parts of the world that don't mean diddly, the IMNSHO sad
state of the equipment books. one item per page, most of the more
recent additions concerning cyberware/weapons, but little else (they
could learn something from the Chrome books here), and a *huge* number
of other things which I won't get into, yet. :)

>Azania, from memory is the old Zulu nation come back to haunt us. Yet
>another super-powerful all-elven nation. Fuck I'm sick of them.

Ditto. It's so refreshing to see that there are more than two IE haters
on this list.

>> Nan-Og and Tairngire, more would put me right off the game entirely.
>> Damn elves.
>> <grumble, grumble, groan, moan, mumble.>
>>
>Hear hear. I'd like to see an Orc nation or two.... there's certainly
>enough of them in the game world to justify it, especially if the elves
>have managed to form three little racist enclaves.

With some considerable writing and ignoring of existing material,
Cascade Ork, could be turned into an Ork nation, even if it is part of
the SS. Though it is strange that the Orks have only formed little
enclaves (ie Seattle's underground) and the dwarves/trolls have done
nothing except roam aimlessly in ever increasing circles. Considering
the mythology surrounding those races is well founded and even, to a
point refelcted in ED. Why haven't the drawves formed their famous
cities and dug bloody great holes in the rockies, why haven't the Orks
congregated into the huge clans their race is mythologically famous for,
etc etc. Why is it the damn elves have two bloody great nations that
govenr this world, have all the fun, are immortal, get to have dragons
as best buddies, and influence all of creation? Bloody elves <grumble,
grumble, groan, moan, mumble>

And yes I do remember Mike's statement regarding them "elveses". I just
hope he sticks to it. For centuries mortal man has been saving this
planet from all sorts of nasty beasties, including the gods, with a
little help from his not so human friends, all of a sudden it's the
immortal elveses who do everything, and mortal man and his cohorts is
merely a pawn in a shooting gallery. Give me a break...

<hits off switch before rant takes full hold...>

>> the next book due out is an "Art of", yeah like there's been some art
>> recently worth sticking in a book. :(
>
>That's only because Elmore doesn't work for them anymore. The rumour is
>that it had something to do with an exclusive contract from T$R or
>something.

Whatever the reasons, I miss the good art we had in the earlier
sourcebooks. This insistance on smudgy, poorly defined brick art is
really beginning to cheese me off. It spoils the whole impression of
the book. Looking at the quality of artwork in the CP2020 books, and
its consistency, and the high and consistent quality of art in the Rifts
books, one wonders where the hell the SR line went, did somebody decide
to accept contributuions from kindergarten? Again the artwork in the ED
line of books has been collectively excellent. Shadowrun? Dogs drek.

>I'd have to agree with you though; The artwork inside the
>sourcebooks looks pretty shitty these days; Too heavy and unfinished, a
>bit like a pre-schooler's finger paintings.

Agreed. :)

>O.K., for the record Japan would be a feudalised society with an
>entrenched caste system, ruled by the Corporations, who would mimic the
>ancient daimyo's. Not sure where the Emperor would figure in the
>society... considering the Japanese reverence for history and culture he
>may still be there, with as little real power as ever.

The Emperor is the son of the gods. There have been attempts in the
past to remove him, most recently at the end of the second war. But, he
_is_ a figurehead that the people revere, in a similar way the the
British monarchy, figureheadss with little real power, but the people
like 'em. so... I reckon the Emperor is still there, and he's still
just a figurehead for the ruling daimyo's, erm, corps. :) I'm not sure
on the feudal aspect though, a technological, financially superior
nation like Japan would not host a feudal society very well, a
democracy with feudal undertones may be a better way of considering it.
The Islands are too small to maintain the kind of battles that Fuchi and
Mistuhama/mistubishi etc are likely to get into, but in a finanically
governed democracy, they could have a go at each other legally,
utilising the weapons of their time, money and shares.

>I've formed the impression that most of South-East Asia is a pirate kings
>paradise, with little or no central government.
>

That's pretty much how I see it as well, with the richness that
technology offers, and the corruption that would be intrinsic in
countries where "haves and have-nots" would be more defined than in
western culture.

>> FASA - making it out to be a world utopia and all round nicey nicey
>> place).
>>
>Geez, no surprise. SR players don't go in for utopias. Dystopia maybe,
>a bit like the London sourcebook where everthing is nice on the surface
>but with a cesspit of a core.

Hmm.. I won't comment on the London sourcebook, most here are already
aware of my impression on that particular piece. <g>

>Who wrote the 'official' sourcebook anyway?

A company similar to FanPro. They are apparently licenced to produce
FASA material over there, and took it on themselves to produce this
wonderworld, where everyone loves each other, no corruption exists and
the corporations are bestest buddies. There's an extensive rant on the
subject on Gen-ichi's site. :)

>> it all starts in 2054, it's now 2058, and the entire world has stagnated
>> into "nothing happening" except of course the UCAS, where everything
>> happens.
>
>That's partly due to a change in product line developers, but I know what
>you mean.

OK, Mike has walked into a difficult position, he has material that has
been planned prior to his assumption of the mantle, and is going to take
the flak for something he has had little choice about. But even so, the
players and GMs of SR have been crying out for updates and material for
quite a while. Even Cyberpunk offers the players updates on the game
world at regular intervals. with a wealth of material on all sorts of
subjects (and they have a "Space" Book...) I appreciate that Mike is
nervous about releasing "location" sourcebooks because of their poor
reception with gamers. Seattelites <g> complain about the Seattle
sourcebook, Germans complain about the Germany sourcebook, many Brits
moan about the London sourcebook, so he's got a nasty task on his hands,
but it would be so nice to see the rest of the world dealt with. Too
many countries and areas are arbitrarily writen off. Todays hostile
countries are obliterated and claimed as radioactive or toxic, other
countries have massive chunks removed from them for no better reason
than saving on sourbook space, some, like Gurth's homeland, are utterly
destroyed. Why?

Britain has a massive wealth of history, concerning magic and
witchcraft, legends and myths, yet they were brushed aside and given two
coats of whitewash, half of the wealth of this country wasn't even
hinted at, let alone detailed, Germany was dealt with in a similar way,
and large chunks of Europe written off, probably to save the bother of a
European sourcebook.

Dirty great big chunks of the American continent have been removed and
handed over to the Native Americans, with _very_ little detailing what
they're doing, how or why. I mean what is going on in those vast tracts
of land. Two sourcebooks later, and I'm none the wiser.

I can see his logic in producing half sourcebook half game book, but
only if it's done in the manner of the Denver source material, or the
Universal Brotherhood, where there are two books, Players book, and GM's
book, combining the two, just increases a GMs headaches. It's much
easier to let players have a sourcebook directed at them, and keep the
meat back, than to keep handing books around saying "please don't read
that bit".... <sigh>

>Us Australian gamers have been waiting for the much touted
>Australian sourcebook for six years now.

Yeah, and by the looks of things, you'll be waiting even longer. I have
the feeling that it had been turned into another massive Elven nation,
and Mike realised that FASA would likely be torched if he allowed it's
release.

>Personally I think that (copyright problems aside) FASA should
>tour the web and pull everything off that looks decent and will fit in
>their development plan..... it'd certainly speed things up, and most
>peiople I know would be happy just to have their stuff used, as long as
>they got their name inside the front cover as a contributor.

OK, in refelction of this, that's precisely what happened with the
Chrome Book 4 release from R. Talsorian. The staff toured the web, took
what they thought was cool, and stuffed it into a sourcebook,
unfortunately a couple of mistakes were made, one contributor was
missed in the credits (ammended) and a couple of seriously stupid items
got into the book. R. Talsorian are also, I believe hosting the web
site of a player who had to remove his web pages for personal reasons.
They were more than happy to take his archive and stick it on their
site, a move that may set a precedent amongst game companies, though I
doubt it.

Yes it would be nice if FASA decided to take some of the fan material
and put it in a book, copyright isn't an issue, as it merely requires
the permission of the owner, however, payment is another matter. I
don't think (though I could be wrong) that Talsorian paid for the
contributions to the Chrome Book, people were just very happy to be a
part of the official material and get their name in print.... the
fifteen minutes of fame thing. :)

>There are of course, major problems with doing that, but surely they
>could give it a go?!!?

I don't think so. Have you read the FASA Submission Guidelines? They
are incredibly draconian, and very demanding.

>> seem to like to actually commit themselves to something solid, prefering
>> to leave things like this to ambiguous comments and shabby hints.
>>
>But only if we're lucky,

LOL, Never a truer statement has been said.

>and they decide to stop promoting the American
>plot as much.

Oopsy... That'll get a reaction from the Yanks. :)

You know the sort of thing. "American company, the majority of players
are American" that sort of drek.

>One major problem is that FASA tries to get local authors to write the
>sourcebooks.... if there isn't one for your area, it could be your fault.
> Get off your butt and ask FASAMike if there's one under submission, and
>if there isn't, consider writing one.

Read the Guidelines, it ain't that easy. :(

>BTW; There IS one under submission for Aus. at the moment, but it's
>nowhere near finished due to a major re-write. They aren't able to
>really accept any other competing submissions. (I asked)

Yeah, still makes me think it was an other Tir Tairngire/Tir Nan-Og...
<sigh>

>> <Going away and eating coffee in an attempt to calm down>
>>
>And that's going to work?

Yep, crunching coffee beans always helps me wind down if I'm getting a
little heated :) I hate the stuff that comes in jars, it's dehydrated
tasteless garbage, give me a good Columbian or Kenyan bean anyday. :)

>*grin*

Try it sometime, coffee beans are tasty, relaxing, and very very bad for
you <g>

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/

From:	Eric Hall <esh7695@******.SDSMT.EDU>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Mon, 31 Mar 1997 22:34:11 +0000

Message no. 4 Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK> wrote...
> "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU> writes

> With some considerable writing and ignoring of existing material,
> Cascade Ork, could be turned into an Ork nation, even if it is part of
> the SS. Though it is strange that the Orks have only formed little
> enclaves (ie Seattle's underground) and the dwarves/trolls have done
> nothing except roam aimlessly in ever increasing circles. Considering
> the mythology surrounding those races is well founded and even, to a
> point refelcted in ED. Why haven't the drawves formed their famous
> cities and dug bloody great holes in the rockies, why haven't the Orks
> congregated into the huge clans their race is mythologically famous for,
> etc etc. Why is it the damn elves have two bloody great nations that
> govenr this world, have all the fun, are immortal, get to have dragons
> as best buddies, and influence all of creation? Bloody elves <grumble,
> grumble, groan, moan, mumble>

I haven't read any of the ED stuff so this may be off-base, but perhaps it
has to do with relative life span. The Elves have been around forever
(lucky us! <g>) and if you read into TT and TNO right, they've been
plotting for even longer ;-).

In contrast, Orks only live to their 30s, and Trolls don't live much
longer. Kind of tough to found a nation if you consider that the oldest
members of society couldn't even be elected president (have to be 35 in
the US). The average Troll isn't smart enough to care about living in a
Troll nation. I don't know what the dwarves' excuse is.

(Ducks under Gurth's stairs as the Orks and Trolls in the audience start
loading up their carp-shooters.

> >> it all starts in 2054, it's now 2058, and the entire world has stagnated
> >> into "nothing happening" except of course the UCAS, where
everything
> >> happens.
> >
> >That's partly due to a change in product line developers, but I know what
> >you mean.

I think they envision their website as filling in this need, but they
haven't updated the Shadowland pages since November, so who knows...

> >and they decide to stop promoting the American
> >plot as much.

> Oopsy... That'll get a reaction from the Yanks. :)
>
> You know the sort of thing. "American company, the majority of players
> are American" that sort of drek.

Well darn it, its an American company, the majority of players are
American.... oh :-P (mayber Gurth's stairs aren't so safe...)

I think the American plot actually has a lot to do with writing what you
know. Mike & co. can't write believably about Europe or Australia if
they've never been there.

> Try it sometime, coffee beans are tasty, relaxing, and very very bad for
> you <g>
>
Too expensive. Coke almost breaks my budget as it is <g>.

Rone
----------------------------------------------
Eric Hall esh7695@******.sdsmt.edu
Visit my Shadowrun Page:
http://www.geocities.com/TimeSquare/Alley/1875

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:35:46 +0100

Message no. 5 MARTIN E. GOTTHARD said on 10:07/ 1 Apr 97...

> One major problem is that FASA tries to get local authors to write the
> sourcebooks.... if there isn't one for your area, it could be your fault.
> Get off your butt and ask FASAMike if there's one under submission, and
> if there isn't, consider writing one.

One thing to keep in mind is that Mike has told us that location
sourcebooks are among the most requested, but least-selling books FASA
puts out.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Every breath you take, every move you make, every cake you bake...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:35:46 +0100

Message no. 6 Eric Hall said on 22:34/31 Mar 97...

> In contrast, Orks only live to their 30s, and Trolls don't live much
> longer.

They live about 20 years longer than that...

> > You know the sort of thing. "American company, the majority of players
> > are American" that sort of drek.
>
> Well darn it, its an American company, the majority of players are
> American.... oh :-P (mayber Gurth's stairs aren't so safe...)

They've proven to be 100% American-proof so far...

> I think the American plot actually has a lot to do with writing what you
> know. Mike & co. can't write believably about Europe or Australia if
> they've never been there.

I'd say it's more than just "being there." One two-week vacation doesn't
give you any idea of what a place is really like. Live there for a couple
of years and you may get close, but to really know what a country is like
I think you have to live there most of your life.
Unless you want to go for the outsider's view, then having lived there
isn't going to help much.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Every breath you take, every move you make, every cake you bake...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:58:09 GMT

Message no. 7 Avenger writes
>
> The rather silly
> photographs in POAD, concerning Mars,
It adds to the fun but yes there are some very serious problems with
that thread, like certain events could not have occured without being
plastered all over shadowland. (even in retrospect)

> what is the present condition of
> Ares/NASA, what orbitals are there, and why. (A space book please -
> hell I'll even write it.) :)
I have heard rumours with 1999 attached, but anyones guess what will
actually happen. I came accross an advert in a shadowland mag the
other day promising Austrailia by Feb 97 :)

> >Azania, from memory is the old Zulu nation come back to haunt us. Yet
> >another super-powerful all-elven nation. Fuck I'm sick of them.
>
Its another elven nation, not so sure about size or power though.

> Ditto. It's so refreshing to see that there are more than two IE haters
> on this list.
Maybe its time the Dragons got organised on a little payback for their
down cycle hunting, i mean the Tir's are powerful but thier reaction
to thermonukes from orbit well.... (ok so Lofwry doesn't need to be
so indesciminate but he could do it, just won't)

> Why haven't the drawves formed their famous
> cities and dug bloody great holes in the rockies, why haven't the Orks
> congregated into the huge clans their race is mythologically famous for,
> etc etc. Why is it the damn elves have two bloody great nations that
> govenr this world, have all the fun, are immortal,
lack of immortals other than elves is a bit silly. Sure they have a
base lifespan tripple and more any other race but adding zeros to
your lifespan requires magic big enough that it sould work regardless
of the basic limit.
The reason the elves have two nations is the immortal ones set things
up to achieve them, it would seem the official time line doesn't have
other immortals hence no non elf nations as good.
Mike probably cannot do much about this though without including a LOT
more immortals or having a nasty accident happen to one of the
existing ones and make a whole published sourcebook totally obsolete.
The former he probably doesn't want to do (he says he doesn't like
immortal elves) and the latter would probably be unpopular with
financial considerations unless FASA made sure they ran out the the
applicable book well in advance (and so did most distibuters)

> get to have dragons
> as best buddies, and influence all of creation? Bloody elves <grumble,
> grumble, groan, moan, mumble>
Actually the elves and dragons don't like each other, one of the
dragons once ate the elven queen, oops, only they don't seem keen on
open warfare over it.

>
> And yes I do remember Mike's statement regarding them "elveses". I just
> hope he sticks to it.
> >
>
>
Mark

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:35:46 +0100

Message no. 8 Avenger said on 4:36/ 1 Apr 97...

> I appreciate that Mike is nervous about releasing "location" sourcebooks
> because of their poor reception with gamers. Seattelites <g> complain
> about the Seattle sourcebook, Germans complain about the Germany
> sourcebook, many Brits moan about the London sourcebook

I think nobody likes to see their home country/city messed up as bad as
the rest of the world, but want to have it pictured as some last
bastion of normality in a weird world.

> some, like Gurth's homeland, are utterly destroyed. Why?

I've said it before, an I'll say it again: it looks to me like FanPro
wasn't content with just killing off Germany, but they felt they had to
take the rest of Europe with them. IMHO it just goes too far into
unbelievability, even for a world with magic and stuff.

> It's much easier to let players have a sourcebook directed at them, and
> keep the meat back, than to keep handing books around saying "please
> don't read that bit".... <sigh>

That was especially bad with Threats, IMO. All the gamemaster material
should have been in the back of the book, and not after each chapter. Now
it's almost impossible to hand it to the players and let them read bits of
it without having them also read the GM-only section of each chapter.

> OK, in refelction of this, that's precisely what happened with the
> Chrome Book 4 release from R. Talsorian. The staff toured the web, took
> what they thought was cool, and stuffed it into a sourcebook,
> unfortunately a couple of mistakes were made, one contributor was
> missed in the credits (ammended) and a couple of seriously stupid items
> got into the book.

Nonetheless I say it's a good move. There's a LOAD of stuff out there on
the net, but all I've seen FASA do (I might be wrong here of course, I
don't work for FASA) is have one or two people re-write the things they
originally put up on the web and then put it into a sourcebook. I'm
thinking of the learning rules from the Companion here, which Fro tell me
are still up on Linda Naughton's web page too. Come to think of it, she
also submitted them to Shadowland, so maybe that's how they came to FASA's
attention in the first place...

> R. Talsorian are also, I believe hosting the web site of a player who
> had to remove his web pages for personal reasons. They were more than
> happy to take his archive and stick it on their site, a move that may
> set a precedent amongst game companies, though I doubt it.

There aren't even links to BT, ED, or SR players' pages on FASA's web
page, even though Lou Prosperi asked for URLs on the ED list a few months
before FASA's page first got put up. Even if no WWW-"published" (I know
that's not the right word for legal reasons or something) material gets
used by FASA, I don't see why no links can be set up. And I don't buy "It
may cause legal trouble" stuff -- I highly doubt anyone who creates an
HTML page with some SR stuff on it will sue FASA for adding a link to that
page... And there are always disclaimers of the "All pages linked to are
not official FASA material blah blah blah" kind.

> Yes it would be nice if FASA decided to take some of the fan material
> and put it in a book, copyright isn't an issue, as it merely requires
> the permission of the owner, however, payment is another matter.

I don't see payment being a problem either, they could always pay their
nomal rates for articles IMHO.

> I don't think (though I could be wrong) that Talsorian paid for the
> contributions to the Chrome Book, people were just very happy to be a
> part of the official material and get their name in print.... the
> fifteen minutes of fame thing. :)

Not sure, but I do know one person who had some stuff he wrote published
in CB4 (it was originally in one of the Information Overload
net.sourcebooks) and he was told his name wouldn't be in the credits; in
the end it did appear there, though he didn't tell me if he got any
payment apart from a complimentary copy of the book.

> I don't think so. Have you read the FASA Submission Guidelines? They
> are incredibly draconian, and very demanding.

I read them, and they're what made me decide not to try submitting an
idea to them... I've read guidelines for a few other companies, and they
look much more relaxed -- look at Talsorian's for example.

> >One major problem is that FASA tries to get local authors to write the
> >sourcebooks.... if there isn't one for your area, it could be your fault.
> > Get off your butt and ask FASAMike if there's one under submission, and
> >if there isn't, consider writing one.
>
> Read the Guidelines, it ain't that easy. :(

"Before you begin to write, always send us a submission proposal. Never
send us an unsolicited, complete or partially complete manuscript. The
manuscript will be returned to you regardless of the legal permission or
disclaimers you provide with it."

"Please DO NOT start to write the project until one of the developers
asks you to do so."

"Finally, the fun part. Sell us on your proposal. Tell us why your
proposal is important to the game line. Explain the need it's filling, and
the importance of filling that need. Assume that others are proposing the
same thing and tell us why your version is better."

"First-time writers may still submit proposals for sourcebooks, but the
evaluation process will be that much more difficult due to the lack of
published writing experience."

"We do not accept electronic mail submissions. E-mail is used only for
customer support and for communicating with contracted writers. We can
answer questions regarding the submission process via e-mail, but will
reject all e-mailed submissions without reading them."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Every breath you take, every move you make, every cake you bake...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	Glenn Robertson <Glenn.Robertson@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:37:23 -0700

Message no. 9 > One thing to keep in mind is that Mike has told us that location
> sourcebooks are among the most requested, but least-selling books FASA
> puts out.

I can see how FASA would be hesitant to release sourcebooks if this is
indeed the case, and I can understand how some GMs don't wanna have to
fit their ideas and campaign hooks into a prefab area. However, a simple
map-and-history of the world up to Shadowrun times would be a much bigger
hit than the average sourcebooks. Then, GMs can move their game wherever
their ideas take them. It isn't that they don't want the histories and
maps, they just don't wanna be told how everything is at each of the
places if they already have it set some other way.

Glenn

From:	Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Tue, 1 Apr 1997 11:05:07 -0800

Message no. 10 At 22:34 3/31/97 +0000, Eric Hall wrote:
>Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK> wrote...
>> With some considerable writing and ignoring of existing material,
>> Cascade Ork, could be turned into an Ork nation, even if it is part of
>> the SS. Though it is strange that the Orks have only formed little
>> enclaves (ie Seattle's underground) and the dwarves/trolls have done
>> nothing except roam aimlessly in ever increasing circles. Considering
>> the mythology surrounding those races is well founded and even, to a
>> point refelcted in ED. Why haven't the drawves formed their famous
>> cities and dug bloody great holes in the rockies,

It takes a while to build those huge underground cities... give 'em a
few centuries... and I believe there's a Dwarfish nation in what used
to be Germany, not to mention an underground community in the San Francisco
Bay Area.

>> why haven't the Orks
>> congregated into the huge clans their race is mythologically famous for,
>> etc etc.

Like the Troll Kingdom of the Black Forest in Germany? Or the Cascade
Ork?

>> Why is it the damn elves have two bloody great nations that
>> govenr this world, have all the fun, are immortal, get to have dragons
>> as best buddies, and influence all of creation? Bloody elves <grumble,
>> grumble, groan, moan, mumble>

>In contrast, Orks only live to their 30s, and Trolls don't live much
>longer.

Orks can make it to 40 regularly, Trolls to 60, IIRC.

> Kind of tough to found a nation if you consider that the oldest
>members of society couldn't even be elected president (have to be 35 in
>the US). The average Troll isn't smart enough to care about living in a
>Troll nation.

It doesn't take brains to want to be among people like yourself. The
problem is that the Trolls smart enough to organize such things are going
to be very rare-- a Troll with Int 4 is as common as a human with Int 6.
(Of course, the king of the Troll Kingdom of the Black Forest is a former
street sam; I have a sneaking suspicion that he might have a Cerebral Booster
and be up for Leonization soon... and I can imagine that key personnel
might end up with encephalons and/or cerebral boosters in that nation...)

One of the problems is that none of the non-elven groups are portrayed as
particularly *powerful*; the non-elven metahuman groups exist, but they
just don't get any decent representation in the FASA products. (At least
Hawaii is a place where the goblin types are commonly accepted and Elves,
IIRC, viewed with suspicion.) There are probably reasons for this:
Orks and Trolls are going to have a lot of trouble when they have to deal
with humans and metahumans who are repulsed by their appearance-- making
it difficult to deal with folks even if they *aren't* basically prejudiced.
Dwarfs will have a similar problem with people who won't take short people
seriously.

They won't be able to get their hands on the kinds of resources it takes
to build a nation because it's hard for them to rise through the ranks
to get that kind of power base. There aren't many frontiers for them to
go off and colonize for themselves, so they end up having to make niches
for themselves until they *can* accumulate that kind of power base. Given
that (other than spike babies) there aren't any Dwarfs over 46 years old,
they're still trying to gather their power base. The Orks and Trolls are
going to have proportionally fewer capable leaders. But give them time...

From:	Grendel <grendel@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:50:34 -0500

Message no. 11 >> >One major problem is that FASA tries to get local authors to write the
>> >sourcebooks.... if there isn't one for your area, it could be your fault.
>> > Get off your butt and ask FASAMike if there's one under submission, and
>> >if there isn't, consider writing one.
>>
>> Read the Guidelines, it ain't that easy. :(
I tried to submit something....It's been almost 6 months now and not an
answer apart the aknowledgment receipt wich is nothing; and I'm from the
place I want to write about. I don't know why they're taking soooo long but
I'm kinda bored to wait after them....

Grendel

From:	david lowe <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:02:15 -0800

Message no. 12 >MARTIN E. GOTTHARD said on 10:07/ 1 Apr 97...
>
>> One major problem is that FASA tries to get local authors to write the
>> sourcebooks.... if there isn't one for your area, it could be your fault.
>> Get off your butt and ask FASAMike if there's one under submission, and
>> if there isn't, consider writing one.
>

This is an old gripe, but it seemed to me that the person(s) who wrote the
Cal-Free sourcebook had never been anywhere near California. I live in the
San Francisco Bay Area (Oakland, to be exact), and thought the material on
that part of CA was the worst peice of junk ever published by FASA. What's
worse, the map didn't jibe with anything that currently exists in real
life, what was published in the Neo-A's Guide to NA, or the text in the
Cal-Free Sourcebook. I know nobody likes to have their hometown trashed,
but that sourcebook was garbage.

D.

From:	"Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:00:42 -0600

Message no. 13 On 03:50 PM 4/1/97 -0500, Grendel screamed at the world:
>I tried to submit something....It's been almost 6 months now and not an
>answer apart the aknowledgment receipt wich is nothing; and I'm from the
>place I want to write about. I don't know why they're taking soooo long but
>I'm kinda bored to wait after them....

Six months? Welcome to the world of unsolicited manuscripts. I'd be
surprised if you were contacted within six months when cold soliciting
anything to any publishing house.

-Thomas Deeny
telltale.hart.org

Voice: Hello, and welcome to the Springfield Police Department Resc-u-Fone.
If you know the name of the felony being committed, press one. To choose
from a list of felonies, press two. If you are being murdered or calling
from a rotary phone, please stay on the line.

Bart: [growls, punches some numbers]

Voice: You have selected regicide. If you know the name of the king or
queen being murdered, press one.

From:	TEGTMEBC@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:25:28 -0500

Message no. 14 You wrote:
> > One thing to keep in mind is that Mike has told us that location
> > sourcebooks are among the most requested, but least-selling books FASA
> > puts out.

> I can see how FASA would be hesitant to release sourcebooks if this is
> indeed the case, and I can understand how some GMs don't wanna have to
> fit their ideas and campaign hooks into a prefab area. However, a simple
> map-and-history of the world up to Shadowrun times would be a much bigger
> hit than the average sourcebooks. Then, GMs can move their game wherever
> their ideas take them. It isn't that they don't want the histories and
> maps, they just don't wanna be told how everything is at each of the
> places if they already have it set some other way.

I have to agree with you here. A overview of the entire world up to the
current date would probably be more useful, not to mention sell better.
Somrthing like a world map with the new bounderies and a sourcebook with the
histories of the area. Nothing real in depth, since you are dealing with the
entire world, but a rundown of the major events in most of the major countries.
To me, it would seem better than one country at a time. That, and because it
would be somewhat vague, people could still change some of the things if they
didn't like them. But a map of the national boundries in 205X would be real
helpful. I don't know if FASA would do something like this, but I think it
would be cool.

-The Immortal Mental

From:	Grendel <grendel@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:19:22 -0500

Message no. 15 Faux Pas wrote:
>Six months? Welcome to the world of unsolicited manuscripts. I'd be
>surprised if you were contacted within six months when cold soliciting
>anything to any publishing house.

Then I guess I'll wait till I'm old and can't do nothing more to have an
answer. I just thought FASA would be reasonnable with submission. It seems
not...

Grendel

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:38:39 +0100

Message no. 16 In article <5A40B64FC@******.eee.rgu.ac.uk>, Mark Steedman
<M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk> writes
>Avenger writes
>>
>> The rather silly
>> photographs in POAD, concerning Mars,
>It adds to the fun but yes there are some very serious problems with
>that thread, like certain events could not have occured without being
>plastered all over shadowland. (even in retrospect)

The problems are added to by that ridiculous run they produced in
Missions, Ares techies hunt down a solution, and then don't get to tell
anyone, and it's all covered up, and even then the true solution is only
hinted at, not confirmed.. ye gods. Is everything FASA going to produce
from now on, going to be a total evasion of source material, with no
commitment to anything?

>> what is the present condition of
>> Ares/NASA, what orbitals are there, and why. (A space book please -
>> hell I'll even write it.) :)
>I have heard rumours with 1999 attached, but anyones guess what will
>actually happen.

I've heard the same rumours, and I don't believe one of them. Okay,
Space 1999, would be a fun title, but it's copyrighted to Anderson, so
that's out the window straight away. Also, the way things are going I
fully expect FASA to announce that space travel/habitation exists, but
not necessarily, then send an ARES/NASA team to find it, only to leave
them without a real answer, and with a strong hint that space doesn't
exist. <sour grin>

>I came accross an advert in a shadowland mag the
>other day promising Austrailia by Feb 97 :)

Do I hear a collective "oopsy". :) Yeah, Australian Sourcebook, ok. I
believe it. A sourcebook that will be sensible, won't irradiate 75% of
Australia, wipe oput another 15% for toxicity and mana storms, leaving
the other 10% to congregate around Sydney, which is now the world centre
for the immortal elven nation of "Dipsy Dopey". We shall see. :)

>> >Azania, from memory is the old Zulu nation come back to haunt us. Yet
>> >another super-powerful all-elven nation. Fuck I'm sick of them.
>>
>Its another elven nation, not so sure about size or power though.

Oh *)(&^%$"?$*^)*_*(^&_+)*&^%&^ <sorry> :)

>> Ditto. It's so refreshing to see that there are more than two IE haters
>> on this list.
>Maybe its time the Dragons got organised on a little payback for their
>down cycle hunting, i mean the Tir's are powerful but thier reaction
>to thermonukes from orbit well.... (ok so Lofwry doesn't need to be
>so indesciminate but he could do it, just won't)

Oh please, don't start the orbiting missile strike satellite debate
again <grin> they're up there, we all know it <g> but many on this
list are government lackies and will deny their existence most
vehemently, and also will take great pains to explain why nuclear
weapons are not a threat in 2058. Yeah right. <g>

>> etc etc. Why is it the damn elves have two bloody great nations that
>> govenr this world, have all the fun, are immortal,

>lack of immortals other than elves is a bit silly.

Actually, I'd go the reverse of that, Having _any_ imortal human(oids)
is silly, Dragons, sure, they have lived throughout legend and myth,
from time immemorial <sp> but immortal elves, <sheesh> the same in my
opinion applies to any race. Nobody should be immortal, and as for long
lived, OK, there are mythological races who are long lived, but things
have got to the point of "Ok, so where's the one ring then?"

>The reason the elves have two nations is the immortal ones set things
>up to achieve them, it would seem the official time line doesn't have
>other immortals hence no non elf nations as good.

Even though human nations have existed for centuries prior to the
Elveses miraculously building this wonder power? OK, pre planning is
always useful, but they've taken a large chunk of the west coast, an
entire island in the UK, and an island that is proudly independant, I
mean, what happened, did all the Irish suddenly turn into elves
overnight? <Don't answer that.>

I have to apologise, as I'm a rabid IE hater, and tend to fly off
occassionally.

>Mike probably cannot do much about this though without including a LOT
>more immortals or having a nasty accident happen to one of the
>existing ones and make a whole published sourcebook totally obsolete.

That sounds fine to me. A nice little section in an upcoming sourcebook
detailing the destruction and extinction of Immortal Elves would be
_really_ nice. Damn things shouyld never have been introduced in the
first place. Unless of course, Sauron and co are going to make a guest
appearance later on.

>The former he probably doesn't want to do (he says he doesn't like
>immortal elves) and the latter would probably be unpopular with
>financial considerations unless FASA made sure they ran out the the
>applicable book well in advance (and so did most distibuters)

Take it out of print, making it valuable, and hey presto, out of stock
notices everywhere, solution solved. :)

>> get to have dragons
>> as best buddies, and influence all of creation? Bloody elves <grumble,
>> grumble, groan, moan, mumble>
>Actually the elves and dragons don't like each other, one of the
>dragons once ate the elven queen, oops, only they don't seem keen on
>open warfare over it.

But co-operate, for all the assumed dislike, Dunklezhan, a dragon, sat
on the Tairngire council, his connections and "disagreements" with
Lofwyr, implies that Lofwyr has connections with the elves as well, if
not with Tairngire, then possibly with their opposition in Nan-Og. The
old hatreds don't seem to have carried over, possibly because only a few
elves remember, but... <nope, I'm gonna let it rest>

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Tue, 1 Apr 1997 22:33:04 +0100

Message no. 17 In article <199704010534.WAA32958@******.sdsmt.edu>, Eric Hall
<esh7695@******.SDSMT.EDU> writes
>Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK> wrote...
>> "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU> writes
>
<snippy>
>> govenr this world, have all the fun, are immortal, get to have dragons
>> as best buddies, and influence all of creation? Bloody elves <grumble,
>> grumble, groan, moan, mumble>
>
>I haven't read any of the ED stuff so this may be off-base, but perhaps it
>has to do with relative life span. The Elves have been around forever
>(lucky us! <g>) and if you read into TT and TNO right, they've been
>plotting for even longer ;-).

Well, that's as plausible as some of hte excuses I've heard. :) But
looking though other game systems, Orks are notoriously short lived, yet
still manage to form nations, or at least large clans. Yet in SR the
only "glorious" nations are those of Elves. Orks are clannish, it says
so in the books, but they aren't forming clans, they just rumble around
on the streets being disgusting. OK, if you want a Tolkienesque view of
Orks, they're all evil, nasty, disgusting creaturesbelieved SR was going
to be different, but what happens... <sigh> The only difference so far
is that Trolls don't turn to stone in sunlight.

>In contrast, Orks only live to their 30s, and Trolls don't live much
>longer.

They only live to 30, but mature much quicker. The phrase child in a
man's body, isn't necessarily objective. Accelerated aging in this case
should reflect accelerated maturity, though of course education is going
to suffer. Leaving this ruling that a 28 year old Ork is equivelent to
a teenaged human, with the same mentality and habits, this is
ridiculous in the extreme. It makes half the Ork population of the
sourcebooks to be silly children, which makes me wonder why they're in
the positions they are. Think about it, the average age of a starting
runner is 18-21, this leaves poor Mr Ork with the mentality of a junior
school kid, not somebody capable of complex mathmatics required for
magic, disciplined ritual and dance for Shamanic magic, or common sense
around firearms... It's illogical. Accelerating the maturity along with
the age process, allows "normal" Ork characters. But still doesn't
explain their "living habits", why make statements about clans, tribes
etc, if they aren't going to allow them to form.

Same for Trolls.

<he says trying to get off the soapbox>

>Kind of tough to found a nation if you consider that the oldest
>members of society couldn't even be elected president (have to be 35 in
>the US). The average Troll isn't smart enough to care about living in a
>Troll nation. I don't know what the dwarves' excuse is.

That's the really puzzling one. Dwarves. OK, obviously they like
living in cities now, and have no interest in hanging with their own
kind, and therefore are doomed to extinction. Or something like that.
:)

>(Ducks under Gurth's stairs as the Orks and Trolls in the audience start
>loading up their carp-shooters.

It won't make any difference. Unless Gurth has recently added some
decent armour to the stairs, the newer additions to the carp thrower
weaponry allows armour piercing carps. :) The stairs are no longer
safe.

>> >That's partly due to a change in product line developers, but I know what
>> >you mean.
>
>I think they envision their website as filling in this need, but they
>haven't updated the Shadowland pages since November, so who knows...

Yeah, well, we'll see how that goes on, but it is a little unfair to
those who only have mail access.

>> You know the sort of thing. "American company, the majority of players
>> are American" that sort of drek.
>
>Well darn it, its an American company, the majority of players are
>American.... oh :-P (mayber Gurth's stairs aren't so safe...)

<grin>

>I think the American plot actually has a lot to do with writing what you
>know. Mike & co. can't write believably about Europe or Australia if
>they've never been there.

Oh I know all the logical arguments for the concetration on American
plots, but they are so limiting. FASA have doggedly stuck to a couple
of cities. The home of intrigue and corruption, Washington DC hasn't
been touched. The present day megacity, New York (officially christened
as such during Habitat 96) isn't covered, New Orleans, Houston, Miam,
etc etc. So many sourcebooks and so little information, and so many
aimless wafflings from deckers...

>> Try it sometime, coffee beans are tasty, relaxing, and very very bad for
>> you <g>
>>
>Too expensive. Coke almost breaks my budget as it is <g>.

Can't afford something as classy as Coke, hence the coffee beans... oh,
sorry, you meant Cola <g>

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/

From:	Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:22:17 +1000

Message no. 18 > Do I hear a collective "oopsy". :) Yeah, Australian Sourcebook, ok. I
> believe it. A sourcebook that will be sensible, won't irradiate 75% of
> Australia, wipe oput another 15% for toxicity and mana storms, leaving
> the other 10% to congregate around Sydney, which is now the world centre
> for the immortal elven nation of "Dipsy Dopey". We shall see. :)

Nope, it'll be worse than that. It's being written by a bunch of guys
from Perth, who are separated from 90% of Australia's population by the
width of the entire country.

I can see this being the Australia-Through-Perth's-Eyes Sourcebook. I'm
not holding out ANY hope on it being remotely useful.

Lady Jestyr

-----------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect in a world full of icebergs
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 00:05:41 +0100

Message no. 19 In article <3.0.32.19970401110506.0093bb90@****.com>, Max Rible
<slothman@*********.ORG> writes
>At 22:34 3/31/97 +0000, Eric Hall wrote:
>>Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK> wrote...

>>> the mythology surrounding those races is well founded and even, to a
>>> point refelcted in ED. Why haven't the drawves formed their famous
>>> cities and dug bloody great holes in the rockies,
>
>It takes a while to build those huge underground cities... give 'em a
>few centuries... and I believe there's a Dwarfish nation in what used
>to be Germany, not to mention an underground community in the San Francisco
>Bay Area.

OK, that's fine, but surely their old cities and complexes still exist,
and it has been made clear by FASA, that descendents from the EarthDawn
era arrived in the US, and taught the evolving nations of that time,
which also implies that maybe other races also made it over, Knowing
the present fascination with archaeology, and the implied statements in
the sourcebooks that the answers to many things lies in ancients things,
archaeology would be as extensive in the future as it is now, if not
more so, logically, records would be found, dwarves would find their
homes, ... <ramble, ramble>
>
>>> why haven't the Orks
>>> congregated into the huge clans their race is mythologically famous for,
>>> etc etc.
>
>Like the Troll Kingdom of the Black Forest in Germany? Or the Cascade
>Ork?

I did mention Cascade Ork, but it's not well documented, so not
confirmation that it is in fact a dwarven nation, only thing I've
noticed is a couple of tribes knocking about.

>> Kind of tough to found a nation if you consider that the oldest
>>members of society couldn't even be elected president (have to be 35 in
>>the US). The average Troll isn't smart enough to care about living in a
>>Troll nation.

I disagree with you. The general assumption here is that Orks and
Trolls are incredibly stupid, morons who are incapable of understanding
that they are different, or telling left from right. Slow of wit, does
not equate to stupidity, in fact the stats for the average Ork and
Troll leave them of average and above intelligence.

>It doesn't take brains to want to be among people like yourself.

Exactly. People of like types will congregate in areas of similar type.
Look at present cities, Chinatown, Black areas, Hispanics all gather
primarily amongst people similar to them. This is not a trend it's a
genetic need, Man is a social animal, and will always feel most
comfortable in crowds of his own sort. Orks, trolls and elves are "of"
mankind, not seperate to it, so logically they also would wish to
congregate with their own, if only for the extra protection from racism
and persecution.

>The
>problem is that the Trolls smart enough to organize such things are going
>to be very rare-- a Troll with Int 4 is as common as a human with Int 6.

By what equation are you baseing your judgement of intelligence. Int 6
is a racial maximum for humans and implies _high_ intelligence, only
taken further by Bionetic/Cybernetic enhancement, which means an Int 4
Troll is above average human intelligence, certainly *not* indicative of
a thick skulled moron.

>One of the problems is that none of the non-elven groups are portrayed as
>particularly *powerful*;

I don't feel that they need to be powerful, I've had more than enough
of "powerful" metahumans, country or otherwise. A normal, interacting
with the rest of society and not in control of world shaking or galactic
events nation would be really nice.

>the non-elven metahuman groups exist, but they
>just don't get any decent representation in the FASA products. (At least
>Hawaii is a place where the goblin types are commonly accepted and Elves,
>IIRC, viewed with suspicion.)

In case they start "horror" testing on the attols I guess <s>

>There are probably reasons for this:
>Orks and Trolls are going to have a lot of trouble when they have to deal
>with humans and metahumans who are repulsed by their appearance-- making
>it difficult to deal with folks even if they *aren't* basically prejudiced.
>Dwarfs will have a similar problem with people who won't take short people
>seriously.

There are a great many short people in the world. A considerable number
of famous historical figures have been short people, Napolean, Hitler,
Alexander the Great, etc... They were taken pretty seriously. I don;t
think height is something that people judge their opinions on in all
honesty. Yes there are "heightist" people about, but it's not taken as
a social reflection, and Dwarves aren't really _that_ short. Regardless
of the silly squat sketches from some of the art.

>They won't be able to get their hands on the kinds of resources it takes
>to build a nation because it's hard for them to rise through the ranks
>to get that kind of power base.

You're assuming a powerful economic power base here. When the NAN was
formed they were not economically superior to the UCAS, just more
determined. They also had the advantage of major mojo. There is
sufficient of the old US that is apparently deserted, for the other
metahuman races to form their own nations, and provided we're not
running a futuristic version of Lord of The Rings, then there is no
reason they can't reactivate factories and farmland and start to build
an economic base. In 2058 it's not how much you've got, it's what you
have to offer that makes it pay. According to the Tairngire sourcebook,
the Elven nations have an export profit, far beyond their import or
national debt. Meaning they are a highly profitable nation. Well,
hell, why should they get all the priveleges. A half dozen people
cannot possibly amass that much money and economic power in such a short
time, which means the elves have something nobody else does, sympathetic
sourcebook writers? Crap. There is no logical or reasonable
explanation for the lack of Orc, Trol or Dwarven nations, they've had
the same amount of time as the elves, and as I don't like or accept the
blasted immortals, I can't accept the negligence with which FASA has
dealt with the other races.

>There aren't many frontiers for them to
>go off and colonize for themselves,

erm, sorry, yes there are. Remember, mankind (as in human) has
concentrated in mega cities, leaving much of the old US deserted, taht
means that huge areas of the UCAS/CAS have no population, leaving plenty
of places where groups can congregate and gather to form a nation. (At
least that's how I see it and have dealt with it). As regards the rest
of the world, well, your guess is as good as mine. I know what I've
done, and I also know that future FASA releases will disagree massively
with what I've done, mainly because I don't like destroying huge tracts
of land for silly reasons.

>so they end up having to make niches
>for themselves until they *can* accumulate that kind of power base. Given
>that (other than spike babies) there aren't any Dwarfs over 46 years old,

But that also applies to elves. There aren't any "old" elves other than
the immortals, yet they have a massive power base, both economic and
military.

No fair. And not logical.

>they're still trying to gather their power base. The Orks and Trolls are
>going to have proportionally fewer capable leaders.

Are you basing this on your earlier comparison of intelligence? Or by
some other reasoning. The Orc underground is led by a goblinsed human,
I should think he is more than capable. Allowing for the massive
variation in RL human intelligence, then it is a safe bet, as long as
we're not LOTR here, that there are Orks and Trolls and Dwarves of equal
if not better capability to lead.

>But give them time...

By the time they've had their time, the Elves will have taken over the
world, Legolas and Aragorn will once again be striding the lands, and
we'll all have gone on to greener pastures, while the horrors dance
around the may pole.

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Tue, 1 Apr 1997 23:12:02 +0100

Message no. 20 In article <199704011134.NAA14339@**********.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> writes
>Avenger said on 4:36/ 1 Apr 97...
>
>> I appreciate that Mike is nervous about releasing "location"
sourcebooks
>> because of their poor reception with gamers. Seattelites <g> complain
>> about the Seattle sourcebook, Germans complain about the Germany
>> sourcebook, many Brits moan about the London sourcebook
>
>I think nobody likes to see their home country/city messed up as bad as
>the rest of the world, but want to have it pictured as some last
>bastion of normality in a weird world.

Well, yeah I guess so in some cases, however, Gen-ichi, had a real
problem with Japan as a last bastion, I certainly don't want England to
be a glowing example of normality, but what they did do is frankly
unacceptable, so much of it is unresearched claptrap. I object strongly
to the way they dealt with Europe, so much of that continent has a
richly detailed past that would fit right in with SR themes, and the
middle east as well, with the history of the Crusades, holy grail and
the associated religious orders and artefacts, mages, genies and wizards
etc, yet so much of these areas have been destroyed by fASA, loosely
termed as irradiated or toxic... Ho hum...

>> some, like Gurth's homeland, are utterly destroyed. Why?
>
>I've said it before, an I'll say it again: it looks to me like FanPro
>wasn't content with just killing off Germany, but they felt they had to
>take the rest of Europe with them. IMHO it just goes too far into
>unbelievability, even for a world with magic and stuff.

Yeah, but FanPro isn't officially FASA, they are licenced by FASA, to
have FASA sanction there joke by printing it in English and thereby
reinforcing some of the stupid ideas they put forth... Well. <no further
comment>

>> It's much easier to let players have a sourcebook directed at them, and
>> keep the meat back, than to keep handing books around saying "please
>> don't read that bit".... <sigh>
>
>That was especially bad with Threats, IMO. All the gamemaster material
>should have been in the back of the book, and not after each chapter. Now
>it's almost impossible to hand it to the players and let them read bits of
>it without having them also read the GM-only section of each chapter.

Total agreement from me on that. None of my players have had access to
the Threats book so far, because I intend using some of it later on, it
won't be so much fun for them knowing what's coming at them.

>> unfortunately a couple of mistakes were made, one contributor was
>> missed in the credits (ammended) and a couple of seriously stupid items
>> got into the book.
>
>Nonetheless I say it's a good move.

Oh yes, it's a good idea, I just don't see it happening. In browsing
around the net, and maliciously stealing loads of stuff for my game,
I've noticed that there are some _very_ well thought out and reasoned
items, rules, ideas. Some crappy ones as well, but that's my opinion
and not to be taken as judgemental.

>thinking of the learning rules from the Companion here, which Fro tell me
>are still up on Linda Naughton's web page too. Come to think of it, she
>also submitted them to Shadowland, so maybe that's how they came to FASA's
>attention in the first place...

Maybe a new trend will follow with Shadowrun, now that Mike is in
charge, but I don't think we'll see that much of a drastic change. With
all due credit to him, as he has come into this position with planned
material outstanding, I was incredibly disappointed with Underworld, I
didn't find anything in there really to help me with organised crime in
2058, that I couldn't pick up from a Jackie Chan or James Cagney movie,
and the inclusion of already detailed gangs, and ...

No I'll stop there, before I get start a row in here.

>> happy to take his archive and stick it on their site, a move that may
>> set a precedent amongst game companies, though I doubt it.
>
>There aren't even links to BT, ED, or SR players' pages on FASA's web
>page, even though Lou Prosperi asked for URLs on the ED list a few months
>before FASA's page first got put up.

This is something I do find strange, the amount of web support is
phenomenal for Shadowrun, and I can't believe that teh SR team haven't
bosed around some of them, yet their reticence in including a page of
liks in their Shadowland area is "odd". In some cases like Geocities,
which has a nasty habit of changing or deleting pages, I can understand
their reticence, but for other sites that have been at the same address
for years, I find it odd. One or two sites are blatantly "fan" related
and trashy, but many of them, Blackjacks "Data Heaven" Paulo's
"Archive" among many others are very professionally produced, and
certainly not something to be ashamed about. In my not so humble
opinion, FASA should be proud that people are prepared to devote so much
time and energy - and web space - to a simple game.

Unless of course there's a more sinister reason, after all it is FASA
"Corporation" <g> maybe they don't want to acknowledge the web sites,
as it would mean they approve of the content of these sites, and
recognise that they are unofficial Shadowrun sites, thereby forcing them
to reduce the silly limitations on submissions.

>HTML page with some SR stuff on it will sue FASA for adding a link to that
>page... And there are always disclaimers of the "All pages linked to are
>not official FASA material blah blah blah" kind.

HIghly unlikely is it :) Can you imagine some oik out there on the net
getting offended because FASA linked to their page, god that'd be the
ultimate in ludicrous. <g>

>> Yes it would be nice if FASA decided to take some of the fan material
>> and put it in a book, copyright isn't an issue, as it merely requires
>> the permission of the owner, however, payment is another matter.
>
>I don't see payment being a problem either, they could always pay their
>nomal rates for articles IMHO.

Ah, but to give normal payment for submitted articles, they would then
have to "land mail" their web site, or ideas to FASA on the offchance
that they might be acceptable, and sit around for weeks on end waiting
for the post office to deliver and eventually bring back that all
important accept/reject slip. It conjurs quite a silly picture really.
I have a vision of some poor soul sitting in a windowless office
browsing the web, finding interesting articles, then e-mailing the
writer asking him/her to submit the article via post for approval so
that he can be paid the going rate.... Nah, don't see it myself.
Personally I wouldn't want payment for an article, it'd just be nice to
have one in print. A whole sourcebook however, that'd be different. ,g>

>> I don't think (though I could be wrong) that Talsorian paid for the
>> contributions to the Chrome Book, people were just very happy to be a
>> part of the official material and get their name in print.... the
>> fifteen minutes of fame thing. :)
>
>Not sure, but I do know one person who had some stuff he wrote published
>in CB4 (it was originally in one of the Information Overload
>net.sourcebooks) and he was told his name wouldn't be in the credits; in
>the end it did appear there, though he didn't tell me if he got any
>payment apart from a complimentary copy of the book.

Even so, in a way he has received payment, a $10-15 book, and his name
in print under Talsorians lable, that's not bad really. :) It'd sure
make someone like me happy, but then I've never been fussy <grin>

>> I don't think so. Have you read the FASA Submission Guidelines? They
>> are incredibly draconian, and very demanding.
>
>I read them, and they're what made me decide not to try submitting an
>idea to them...

Seconded, it put me off too, it seemed like an awful lot of hassle, when
elsewhere would consider material with much less trouble. OK, I have
heard of other companies getting themselves into law suits, and there's
the almost legendary battle between FASA and the other company over the
Battlemech designs, but really, do they honestly believe that we're all
like that?

>I've read guidelines for a few other companies, and they
>look much more relaxed -- look at Talsorian's for example.

Talsorians are limiting, in as much as they look for a certain quality
to their material, but a damned sight friendlier than the Spanish
Inquisition that FASA expect. :) Maybe that's a little unfair, as they
are only protecting themselves from glory hunters and nitwits, but all
the same, I haven't heard of any fan related law suits at Talsorian
games in recent years.

>> >One major problem is that FASA tries to get local authors to write the
>> >sourcebooks.... if there isn't one for your area, it could be your fault.
>> > Get off your butt and ask FASAMike if there's one under submission, and
>> >if there isn't, consider writing one.
>>
>> Read the Guidelines, it ain't that easy. :(

<snippy bit>
>"We do not accept electronic mail submissions. E-mail is used only for
>customer support and for communicating with contracted writers. We can
>answer questions regarding the submission process via e-mail, but will
>reject all e-mailed submissions without reading them."

And that's the biggy. No E-mailed submissions. Cross Atlantic prices
for sending a submission isn't too bad as long as it's a couple of pages
outlining an idea, but it takes more than a couple of pages to cover
FASA's demands for justification on a sourcebook, and submitting an
entire sourcebook, printed and wrapped, is damned expensive from
England, if only because of the weight of all that paper, from the
continent I can't see that there's any greater advantage. maybe that's
why the majority of sourcebooks and submissions are from Americans. :)

The initial outlay to profit is greater.

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/

From:	Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:51:46 -0800

Message no. 21 At 00:05 4/2/97 +0100, Avenger wrote:
>In article <3.0.32.19970401110506.0093bb90@****.com>, Max Rible
><slothman@*********.ORG> writes
>OK, that's fine, but surely their old cities and complexes still exist,

After seven thousand years? That's a long time for something that requires
having the roof stay up to stick around. Sure, dwarven construction is
good, but seven thousand years without maintenance-- especially if they
were designed at a time when you could leave up permanent spells to hold
the roof up-- makes it unlikely they'd be habitable.

>>The
>>problem is that the Trolls smart enough to organize such things are going
>>to be very rare-- a Troll with Int 4 is as common as a human with Int 6.

>By what equation are you baseing your judgement of intelligence.

I'm assuming that the distribution of Trollish intelligence is the same
as the distribution of human intelligence, after factoring for Trollish
racial mods.

> Int 6
>is a racial maximum for humans and implies _high_ intelligence, only
>taken further by Bionetic/Cybernetic enhancement, which means an Int 4
>Troll is above average human intelligence, certainly *not* indicative of
>a thick skulled moron.

Did I at some point suggest that a Troll with Int 4 is less intelligent
than a human with Int 4? I'm just pointing out that it's just as hard to
find Trolls with Int 4 as it is to find humans with Int 6.

>>One of the problems is that none of the non-elven groups are portrayed as
>>particularly *powerful*;

>I don't feel that they need to be powerful, I've had more than enough
>of "powerful" metahumans, country or otherwise. A normal, interacting
>with the rest of society and not in control of world shaking or galactic
>events nation would be really nice.

A certain degree of power is required in order to be taken seriously.
It doesn't have to be military power; it can be economic. I'd be a lot
happier if there were news of human beings complaining about being unable
to study civil engineering at universities in the Troll Kingdom of the
Black Forest, or electrical engineering in a Dwarven kingdom, or ...

>>They won't be able to get their hands on the kinds of resources it takes
>>to build a nation because it's hard for them to rise through the ranks
>>to get that kind of power base.

>You're assuming a powerful economic power base here. When the NAN was
>formed they were not economically superior to the UCAS, just more
>determined. They also had the advantage of major mojo.

The major mojo was a key factor in being able to get a soverign nation
to cede some of its land to another one. Almost all the territory of
the planet, other than Antarctica (and Greenland?) is staked out by now.
To get some for yourself, you need to give the current holder some incentive
to let you have it.

> There is
>sufficient of the old US that is apparently deserted, for the other
>metahuman races to form their own nations, and provided we're not
>running a futuristic version of Lord of The Rings, then there is no
>reason they can't reactivate factories and farmland and start to build
>an economic base.

This is assuming the NAN haven't done so already with their own people.
(Actually, a smart move for them would've been to offer citizenship to
disadvantaged metatypes to do just that while working for the NAN...
though that would also be setting themselves up for a possible secession
in the future...)

> According to the Tairngire sourcebook,
>the Elven nations have an export profit, far beyond their import or
>national debt. Meaning they are a highly profitable nation.
...
> A half dozen people
>cannot possibly amass that much money and economic power in such a short
>time, which means the elves have something nobody else does, sympathetic
>sourcebook writers? Crap.

How about a highly educated population that provides a pool of skilled
labor to fuel a new economy?

> There is no logical or reasonable
>explanation for the lack of Orc, Trol or Dwarven nations, they've had
>the same amount of time as the elves,

Time? Yes. Opportunity? No.

>>There aren't many frontiers for them to
>>go off and colonize for themselves,

>erm, sorry, yes there are. Remember, mankind (as in human) has
>concentrated in mega cities, leaving much of the old US deserted, taht
>means that huge areas of the UCAS/CAS have no population, leaving plenty
>of places where groups can congregate and gather to form a nation. (At
>least that's how I see it and have dealt with it).

I don't get that impression from reading the sourcebooks. Can you cite
anything that suggests that to you?

>>so they end up having to make niches
>>for themselves until they *can* accumulate that kind of power base. Given
>>that (other than spike babies) there aren't any Dwarfs over 46 years old,

>But that also applies to elves. There aren't any "old" elves other than
>the immortals, yet they have a massive power base, both economic and
>military.

>No fair. And not logical.

But Elves are exceptionally charismatic; of all the metatypes, they are
the closest to human. They'll have the easiest time of getting along with
humans. Humans with Elven children are a lot more likely to let them
inherit (recall the mention in the London sourcebook about the various
British noble families that suddenly had lots of "miscarriages" after
the Awakening?). It's not fair; it's a facet of human behavior, which isn't
logical.

>>they're still trying to gather their power base. The Orks and Trolls are
>>going to have proportionally fewer capable leaders.

>Are you basing this on your earlier comparison of intelligence? Or by
>some other reasoning.

On the earlier comparison of intelligence, on the parallel one of
charisma that is implicit, and the fact that most of them are going to
have trouble amassing the resources-- connections, money, and so on-- that
a human leader can.

> The Orc underground is led by a goblinsed human,
>I should think he is more than capable. Allowing for the massive
>variation in RL human intelligence, then it is a safe bet, as long as
>we're not LOTR here, that there are Orks and Trolls and Dwarves of equal
>if not better capability to lead.

I don't doubt that there are those with the capability to lead. But there
are fewer of them, with fewer chances, because of some massive inequities
in the initial conditions.

>>But give them time...

>By the time they've had their time, the Elves will have taken over the
>world, Legolas and Aragorn will once again be striding the lands, and
>we'll all have gone on to greener pastures, while the horrors dance
>around the may pole.

Unless the Elves hide behind the Great Wall of Tir Tairngire that's
mentioned in the TT sourcebook while the Horrors suddenly find that
they aren't quite ready for a world where the pool of warriors capable
of blowing them away with high-tech weaponry is drawn from the entire
population, rather than just the Adepts, and the Elves finally poke
their noses out, centuries later, in time to find that research in
technology and magic has left them in the dust.

(Personally, if I were handling the whole Horrors thing, I would build
up lots of rumors of big and nasty things, then have them go
up against the military division that finally cleaned out Bug City and
have them run away with their tails between their legs and burn their
metaplanar bridge behind them.)

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 04:16:55 +0100

Message no. 22 In article <Pine.BSF.3.95.970402101924.14435A-
100000@*******.dialix.com.au>, Lady Jestyr
<jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU> writes
>> Do I hear a collective "oopsy". :) Yeah, Australian Sourcebook, ok. I
>> believe it. A sourcebook that will be sensible, won't irradiate 75% of
>> Australia, wipe oput another 15% for toxicity and mana storms, leaving
>> the other 10% to congregate around Sydney, which is now the world centre
>> for the immortal elven nation of "Dipsy Dopey". We shall see. :)
>
>Nope, it'll be worse than that. It's being written by a bunch of guys
>from Perth, who are separated from 90% of Australia's population by the
>width of the entire country.
>
>I can see this being the Australia-Through-Perth's-Eyes Sourcebook. I'm
>not holding out ANY hope on it being remotely useful.
>

Well J, thanks for that, you've just confirmed my worst suspicions...

Never mind. I guess after the London/German sourcebooks I can happily
ignore this one along with the "oh look pretty pictures" book that's due
out.

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 05:02:17 +0100

Message no. 23 In article <3.0.32.19970401185145.0091f420@****.com>, Max Rible
<slothman@*********.ORG> writes
>At 00:05 4/2/97 +0100, Avenger wrote:
>>In article <3.0.32.19970401110506.0093bb90@****.com>, Max Rible
>><slothman@*********.ORG> writes
>>OK, that's fine, but surely their old cities and complexes still exist,
>
>After seven thousand years? That's a long time for something that requires
>having the roof stay up to stick around. Sure, dwarven construction is
>good, but seven thousand years without maintenance-- especially if they
>were designed at a time when you could leave up permanent spells to hold
>the roof up-- makes it unlikely they'd be habitable.

With all due respect, we have constructions now that are far older than
7 thousand years, adn although their construction is not understsood,
they are there for the world to see, so I don't think it's far fetched
at all. Plus, look at the amount of time that ED covers, and the
dwarven (plus others) buildings stood up then. :)

>>>The
>>>problem is that the Trolls smart enough to organize such things are going
>>>to be very rare-- a Troll with Int 4 is as common as a human with Int 6.
>
>>By what equation are you baseing your judgement of intelligence.
>
>I'm assuming that the distribution of Trollish intelligence is the same
>as the distribution of human intelligence, after factoring for Trollish
>racial mods.

OK, but as far as I was aware, the racial modifiers are there for
characters, not street types who already have the mods factored in, I
could be wrong though.

>Did I at some point suggest that a Troll with Int 4 is less intelligent
>than a human with Int 4? I'm just pointing out that it's just as hard to
>find Trolls with Int 4 as it is to find humans with Int 6.

Sorry, my misunderstanding.

>>I don't feel that they need to be powerful, I've had more than enough
>>of "powerful" metahumans, country or otherwise. A normal, interacting
>>with the rest of society and not in control of world shaking or galactic
>>events nation would be really nice.
>
>A certain degree of power is required in order to be taken seriously.
>It doesn't have to be military power; it can be economic. I'd be a lot
>happier if there were news of human beings complaining about being unable
>to study civil engineering at universities in the Troll Kingdom of the
>Black Forest, or electrical engineering in a Dwarven kingdom, or ...

Yeah, I tend to agree with you here. :)

>>You're assuming a powerful economic power base here. When the NAN was
>>formed they were not economically superior to the UCAS, just more
>>determined. They also had the advantage of major mojo.
>
>The major mojo was a key factor in being able to get a soverign nation
>to cede some of its land to another one. Almost all the territory of
>the planet, other than Antarctica (and Greenland?) is staked out by now.

Is it? I tend to think not. Their may be claims on the territory, but
enforcing those claims may not be as financially viable as the threat
implies.

>This is assuming the NAN haven't done so already with their own people.
>(Actually, a smart move for them would've been to offer citizenship to
>disadvantaged metatypes to do just that while working for the NAN...
>though that would also be setting themselves up for a possible secession
>in the future...)

This was, IIRC tried by TT initially, but was written as being heavily
abused, (thanks FASA), as to the NAN offering a sanctuary to metahumans,
I believe they do, but again it's not well documented and therefore kind
of up in the air.

>> A half dozen people
>>cannot possibly amass that much money and economic power in such a short
>>time, which means the elves have something nobody else does, sympathetic
>>sourcebook writers? Crap.
>
>How about a highly educated population that provides a pool of skilled
>labor to fuel a new economy?

Still takes time, and a bit more than 40+ years. The United States and
Japanese economen more than 40+ years to get to the point where they are
world powers. One through strength, the other through materials.

Tairngire just "happened"

>> There is no logical or reasonable
>>explanation for the lack of Orc, Trol or Dwarven nations, they've had
>>the same amount of time as the elves,
>
>Time? Yes. Opportunity? No.

The opportunity was there, while the elves were fighting for their
country, the NAN were fighting for theirs, the other races got ignored
in the mad rush to create the IE home. Shame really, as it was an ideal
time for other races to take the same measures, or at least follow in
suit. While the new nations are forming, they are not likely to want to
get involved in further conflict. But it was seen fit to ignore the
possibilities.

>>erm, sorry, yes there are. Remember, mankind (as in human) has
>>concentrated in mega cities, leaving much of the old US deserted, taht
>>means that huge areas of the UCAS/CAS have no population, leaving plenty
>>of places where groups can congregate and gather to form a nation. (At
>>least that's how I see it and have dealt with it).
>
>I don't get that impression from reading the sourcebooks. Can you cite
>anything that suggests that to you?

OK, Using the rather crappy UCAS map that comes with the source books,
only major cities are mentioned. The extremely large populations of
listed cities, and a number of other indicators, that suggest what is
left of humankind is centralising in the megacities, and the rest of the
land is being left to those hardy enough to want to remain and the new
nations. There aren't sufficient people in the NAN or Tairngire to
populate the massive areas of Canada and the US that they've taken over,
again indicating that there are areas of low-zero population.

>>But that also applies to elves. There aren't any "old" elves other than
>>the immortals, yet they have a massive power base, both economic and
>>military.
>
>>No fair. And not logical.
>
>But Elves are exceptionally charismatic; of all the metatypes, they are
>the closest to human. They'll have the easiest time of getting along with
>humans. Humans with Elven children are a lot more likely to let them
>inherit (recall the mention in the London sourcebook about the various
>British noble families that suddenly had lots of "miscarriages" after
>the Awakening?). It's not fair; it's a facet of human behavior, which isn't
>logical.

Agreed, Elveses are cuter than orks, however as regards the Royal
Family, changing babies for a cuter pair, is not so strange, in previous
and present times, they have been known to "conceal" their less
desirable members, a case in point came up a few years ago, when it was
discovered a slightly mentally handicapped relation of good old queeny
was kept in a "home" and not allowed out in public. That kind of blew
over, but ... So, changing ugly babies for pretty ones, not so strange.
It's probably been done before.

As regards their acceptance into human society, that's not the issue,
humans have funny habits today about race, that is unlikley to change in
the future without some serious events occuring. However, it tends to
enforce the unreasonable attitude regarding the orks, trolls and dwarves
remaining within the society that hates them so much.

>>variation in RL human intelligence, then it is a safe bet, as long as
>>we're not LOTR here, that there are Orks and Trolls and Dwarves of equal
>>if not better capability to lead.
>
>I don't doubt that there are those with the capability to lead. But there
>are fewer of them, with fewer chances, because of some massive inequities
>in the initial conditions.

Fair enough, I can agree with that, however, with the strength of
character and the inherent charisma amongst his own kind that this
person/people would have... <thinks back to other charismatic leaders of
races...>

>>By the time they've had their time, the Elves will have taken over the
>>world, Legolas and Aragorn will once again be striding the lands, and
>>we'll all have gone on to greener pastures, while the horrors dance
>>around the may pole.
>
>Unless the Elves hide behind the Great Wall of Tir Tairngire that's
>mentioned in the TT sourcebook while the Horrors suddenly find that
>they aren't quite ready for a world where the pool of warriors capable
>of blowing them away with high-tech weaponry is drawn from the entire
>population, rather than just the Adepts, and the Elves finally poke
>their noses out, centuries later, in time to find that research in
>technology and magic has left them in the dust.
>
>(Personally, if I were handling the whole Horrors thing, I would build
>up lots of rumors of big and nasty things, then have them go
>up against the military division that finally cleaned out Bug City and
>have them run away with their tails between their legs and burn their
>metaplanar bridge behind them.)

LOL... I won't comment as you put that beautifully. :)

--
__ \ | \ __
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| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/

From:	"MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 18:36:14 +1000

Message no. 24 > >Very true. If they define an area and then right a sourcebook that
> >contradicts their earlier statement they look like fools. FASA is fairly
> >careful about that kind of thing.
>
[snipped at random]

> endless generalised hints on so much of the SR world. The rather silly
> photographs in POAD, concerning Mars, what is the present condition of
> Ares/NASA, what orbitals are there, and why. (A space book please -
> hell I'll even write it.) :)

You too, eh?.... I found the pictures a little out of the loopy-left
faction of world paradigms featured at the moment. Next thing you
know in the next sourcebook, there's going to be an alien ships concealed
behind an inbound comet.

> >Azania, from memory is the old Zulu nation come back to haunt us. Yet
> >another super-powerful all-elven nation. Fuck I'm sick of them.
>
> Ditto. It's so refreshing to see that there are more than two IE haters
> on this list.
>
Me?? I started the furore (I like to think)

> >Hear hear. I'd like to see an Orc nation or two.... there's certainly
> >enough of them in the game world to justify it, especially if the elves
> >have managed to form three little racist enclaves.
>
> With some considerable writing and ignoring of existing material,
> Cascade Ork, could be turned into an Ork nation, even if it is part of
> the SS.

[snip]
> planet from all sorts of nasty beasties, including the gods, with a
> little help from his not so human friends, all of a sudden it's the
> immortal elveses who do everything, and mortal man and his cohorts is
> merely a pawn in a shooting gallery. Give me a break...
>
> <hits off switch before rant takes full hold...>
>

Yay! That one was good enough to save in my read-mail folder.

> >O.K., for the record Japan would be a feudalised society with an
> >entrenched caste system, ruled by the Corporations, who would mimic the
> >ancient daimyo's. Not sure where the Emperor would figure in the
> >society... considering the Japanese reverence for history and culture he
> >may still be there, with as little real power as ever.
>
> The Emperor is the son of the gods. There have been attempts in the
> past to remove him, most recently at the end of the second war.

The attempt would have been made by the American occupying army if
anybody.... I doubt the Japanese would have mad that attempt by
themeselves (I don't know the history; I know their pyschology). Whether
or not it is accurate, the military junta made good enough scapegoats to
keep the populace from tearing him out of office.

If there's one thing the Japanese are good at (with the exception of
improving other peoples ideas), it's resisting cultural change.

If there's one thing I don't forgive america doing during or after the
war, it's breaking all the Japanese swords they could find. (A forced
'swords into ploughshares' thing, and also symbolically breaking the
will of the remaining warriors)

> just a figurehead for the ruling daimyo's, erm, corps. :) I'm not sure
> on the feudal aspect though, a technological, financially superior
> nation like Japan would not host a feudal society very well, a
> democracy with feudal undertones may be a better way of considering it.

I said feudalISED.... I agree that an outright feudal system wouldn't
work, but the caste system could be highly enforced, especially if Japan
goes through another isolationist period like they did in the past (The
Meiji restoration, from memory) As it is right now, you have to go to
the right KINDERGARTEN to get into the best universities.

> The Islands are too small to maintain the kind of battles that Fuchi and
> Mistuhama/mistubishi etc are likely to get into, but in a finanically
> governed democracy, they could have a go at each other legally,
> utilising the weapons of their time, money and shares.
>
I think that while military conquest will never go truly out of fashion,
the major wars of the future are likely to be financial and industrial.
Oh, and if Fuchi and Mitsu go at it hammer and tong, it won't be in
Japan; it'll be the rest of the world that suffers while an illusion of
tranquility is preserved in the land of the Gods.

> That's pretty much how I see it as well, with the richness that
> technology offers, and the corruption that would be intrinsic in
> countries where "haves and have-nots" would be more defined than in
> western culture.
>
> >> FASA - making it out to be a world utopia and all round nicey nicey
> >> place).
> >>
> >Geez, no surprise. SR players don't go in for utopias. Dystopia maybe,
> >a bit like the London sourcebook where everthing is nice on the surface
> >but with a cesspit of a core.
>
> Hmm.. I won't comment on the London sourcebook, most here are already
> aware of my impression on that particular piece. <g>
>
I'm not; I'm not a huge fan of the London Sourcebook either, for reasons
I can't quite define..... Possible because the Elves run the ruling class
*again*

>
>Who wrote the 'official' sourcebook anyway?
>
> A company similar to FanPro. They are apparently licenced to produce
> FASA material over there, and took it on themselves to produce this
> wonderworld, where everyone loves each other, no corruption exists and
> the corporations are bestest buddies. There's an extensive rant on the
> subject on Gen-ichi's site. :)
>
I'll go check it out..... I wonder if the company does anything other
than write propaganda? The Japanee underworld is just as nasty as any
other in the world; They're just more urbane about it, and the crime
system is more entrenched in the countries culture.

> >Us Australian gamers have been waiting for the much touted
> >Australian sourcebook for six years now.
>
> Yeah, and by the looks of things, you'll be waiting even longer. I have
> the feeling that it had been turned into another massive Elven nation,
> and Mike realised that FASA would likely be torched if he allowed it's
> release.
>
Me too..... I remember way back in the dawns of time when Urdli (SOP
trilogy) was an Immortal Elf as well.... god that annoys me.

I've written some material to do with the general state of Australia as
we'd like to see it (ie, our Brisbane group, and Calcin Hseih in Sydney),
just in case the official sourcebook sucks drek. It's currently going
to be posted on my friends homepage when she remembers to do it.

(Light a fire under your butt, Lady J!!)

It's by no means complete, but it's a start..... Harrass Lady J to get
it up on her page if you're interested in reading it.

> >Personally I think that (copyright problems aside) FASA should
> >tour the web and pull everything off that looks decent and will fit in
> >their development plan..... it'd certainly speed things up, and most
> >peiople I know would be happy just to have their stuff used, as long as
> >they got their name inside the front cover as a contributor.
>
> OK, in refelction of this, that's precisely what happened with the
> Chrome Book 4 release from R. Talsorian. The staff toured the web, took

[snip]
> They were more than happy to take his archive and stick it on their
> site, a move that may set a precedent amongst game companies, though I
> doubt it.
>
God I wish; I'd like to see FASA do a tour of the net, In particular the
Webring and make their own collection of stuff they consider suitable....
Their homepage needs some serious dynamic updating; It's been static for
months.

> Yes it would be nice if FASA decided to take some of the fan material
> and put it in a book, copyright isn't an issue, as it merely requires
> the permission of the owner, however, payment is another matter. I
> don't think (though I could be wrong) that Talsorian paid for the
> contributions to the Chrome Book, people were just very happy to be a
> part of the official material and get their name in print.... the
> fifteen minutes of fame thing. :)
>

As if I'd need to be paid. If I got my name in the book I'd be happy
(though I've only written a modest amount of stuff for SR on the net so
far)

> >There are of course, major problems with doing that, but surely they
> >could give it a go?!!?
>
> I don't think so. Have you read the FASA Submission Guidelines? They
> are incredibly draconian, and very demanding.
>
FASA's been to court a few times with other companies for breach of
copyright (both sides of the fence), and they've gotten burned pretty
badly.... I guess they want to avoid getting sued by individuals as well.

> >and they decide to stop promoting the American
> >plot as much.
>
> Oopsy... That'll get a reaction from the Yanks. :)
>
> You know the sort of thing. "American company, the majority of players
> are American" that sort of drek.
>

Well, frag it; A lot of American players want to see the rest of the
world detailed too, Just not all of them.

Anyway, this is an epic email and while it's not off topic as such, it
could be considered spam by some.

I hope we haven't annoyed anyone out there too much. If we have; Cope,
jut this once *grin*

Bleach

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:42:14 +0100

Message no. 25 Glenn Robertson said on 11:37/ 1 Apr 97...

> However, a simple map-and-history of the world up to Shadowrun times
> would be a much bigger hit than the average sourcebooks.

I think so too. IMHO there are two things that would be a tremendous help
to the typical SR GM: a map, and regular updates on what's happening in
the world. In games set in a fixed time, all that's necessary is one good
book that deals with a region, and that's it. Shadowrun, however, is
constantly moving forward, and you can't expect that everything from a
sourcebook dealing with North America in 2051/52 (the NAGNA) is still true
in 2058, for example.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Every breath you take, every move you make, every cake you bake...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	"MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 18:42:53 +1000

Message no. 26 > I haven't read any of the ED stuff so this may be off-base, but perhaps it
> has to do with relative life span. The Elves have been around forever
> (lucky us! <g>) and if you read into TT and TNO right, they've been
> plotting for even longer ;-).
>
> In contrast, Orks only live to their 30s, and Trolls don't live much
> longer. Kind of tough to found a nation if you consider that the oldest
> members of society couldn't even be elected president (have to be 35 in
> the US). The average Troll isn't smart enough to care about living in a
> Troll nation. I don't know what the dwarves' excuse is.
>

Apologist for the fragging elves. As far as I'm concerned the halved
lifespan is the harshest thing FASA has ever done to the SR world; I
play a naturally born Ork character who is 25 'cause he's come out of the
army... He's going to die by forty. What point does he have in starting
a family?

Real fun to play, when you start thinking about it.

> (Ducks under Gurth's stairs as the Orks and Trolls in the audience start
> loading up their carp-shooters.
>
I hope bull tears your ears off *grin*

> > You know the sort of thing. "American company, the majority of players
> > are American" that sort of drek.
>
> Well darn it, its an American company, the majority of players are
> American.... oh :-P (mayber Gurth's stairs aren't so safe...)
>

Warning; we have nukes!

> I think the American plot actually has a lot to do with writing what you
> know. Mike & co. can't write believably about Europe or Australia if
> they've never been there.
>
Hell, the current writer of the Aus. sourcebook lives in Perth, and works
for a gaming magazine. I don't trust him to write believably about the
rest of Australia, either... Just like I wouldn't have a clue about what
Perth is really like.

The Aus. sourcebook also may be very Perth-o-centric with the rest of Aus
turned into a toxic, rat-infested dump.... If that happens (and I've
heard rumours it is being written like that) I'll have to be physically
restrained from posting a letter bomb.

Well, maybe not that bad.....but close.

Bleach

From:	"MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 18:44:08 +1000

Message no. 27 > > One major problem is that FASA tries to get local authors to write the
> > sourcebooks.... if there isn't one for your area, it could be your fault.
> > Get off your butt and ask FASAMike if there's one under submission, and
> > if there isn't, consider writing one.
>
> One thing to keep in mind is that Mike has told us that location
> sourcebooks are among the most requested, but least-selling books FASA
> puts out.
>

Well, In that case, combine the things together! Or, put out a CD-Rom
with more than one thing on them... especially the out-of-print stuff.

From:	"MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 18:51:59 +1000

Message no. 28 > It takes a while to build those huge underground cities... give 'em a
> few centuries... and I believe there's a Dwarfish nation in what used
> to be Germany, not to mention an underground community in the San Francisco
> Bay Area.
>

It should take a while to set up a self sustaining nation-state with it's
own culture. The elves accomplished that overnight.

> Like the Troll Kingdom of the Black Forest in Germany? Or the Cascade
> Ork?
>

Details??? Where are they? I'm personally leery of taking my players
somewhere that hasn't been developed because I like the SR world
development, with a few reservations, and I don't want to contradict
anything.

It's also a HUGE pain in the arse writing a whole countries material for
one or two sessions only..... And if you don't spend the time thinking
about it, it doesn't make any cohesive sense.

From:	"MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 18:54:06 +1000

Message no. 29 > This is an old gripe, but it seemed to me that the person(s) who wrote the
> Cal-Free sourcebook had never been anywhere near California. I live in the
> San Francisco Bay Area (Oakland, to be exact), and thought the material on
> that part of CA was the worst peice of junk ever published by FASA. What's
> worse, the map didn't jibe with anything that currently exists in real
> life, what was published in the Neo-A's Guide to NA, or the text in the
> Cal-Free Sourcebook. I know nobody likes to have their hometown trashed,
> but that sourcebook was garbage.
>

Hell, trash my hometown any day.....( If I wrote the Aus. sourcebook
Brisbane would be better than Syndey, but only on the basis that it's
smaller and less industralised.) Just make sure there's a reason
beyond making yet another toxic zone for the sake of making toxic zones.

From:	"MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 18:58:20 +1000

Message no. 30 > I have to agree with you here. A overview of the entire world up to the
> current date would probably be more useful, not to mention sell better.
> Somrthing like a world map with the new bounderies and a sourcebook with the
> histories of the area. Nothing real in depth, since you are dealing with the
> entire world, but a rundown of the major events in most of the major countries.
> To me, it would seem better than one country at a time. That, and because it
> would be somewhat vague, people could still change some of the things if they
> didn't like them. But a map of the national boundries in 205X would be real
> helpful. I don't know if FASA would do something like this, but I think it
> would be cool.
>

Here's an idea to stop people complaining; Take informal submissions
from people on what should be happening in the world. Make sure that
everyone know that the articles are informal and will not be paid for.
Re-write thesubmissions yourself and blend them with your own ideas. Put
the persons name in the authors section if you have to.

That way you'd get some consensus on what should be happening, and you
don't have to think it all yourself. If FASAMike asked the ShadowRN or
NERPS list for example, I think people would be happy to provide their ideas
free of charge (God knows I would).

From:	"MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 19:03:47 +1000

Message no. 31 > >I came accross an advert in a shadowland mag the
> >other day promising Austrailia by Feb 97 :)
>
> Do I hear a collective "oopsy". :) Yeah, Australian Sourcebook, ok. I
> believe it. A sourcebook that will be sensible, won't irradiate 75% of
> Australia, wipe oput another 15% for toxicity and mana storms, leaving
> the other 10% to congregate around Sydney, which is now the world centre
> for the immortal elven nation of "Dipsy Dopey". We shall see. :)
>
The date I got from FASAMike when I asked was "sometime towards the end
of '98"

About Australia; Irradiation from *what*????? Mana storms I can beleive,
though they wouldn't be deadly enough to kill every that lives out there.

Anyway, I've said all this before... so I'll shut up.

> >lack of immortals other than elves is a bit silly.
>
> Actually, I'd go the reverse of that, Having _any_ imortal human(oids)
> is silly, Dragons, sure, they have lived throughout legend and myth,
> from time immemorial <sp> but immortal elves, <sheesh> the same in my
> opinion applies to any race. Nobody should be immortal, and as for long
> lived, OK, there are mythological races who are long lived, but things
> have got to the point of "Ok, so where's the one ring then?"
>
ROTFLMAO about the ring thing!

> >Mike probably cannot do much about this though without including a LOT
> >more immortals or having a nasty accident happen to one of the
> >existing ones and make a whole published sourcebook totally obsolete.
>
> That sounds fine to me. A nice little section in an upcoming sourcebook
> detailing the destruction and extinction of Immortal Elves would be
> _really_ nice.

Hear Hear! Death! Death! Death! Death!

Bleach

From:	"MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 19:22:02 +1000

Message no. 32 > I'm assuming that the distribution of Trollish intelligence is the same
> as the distribution of human intelligence, after factoring for Trollish
> racial mods.
>

Allright, here's a bit of thinking for you; Goblinisation is a painful
process, and some people die from it. If you want to take a stat-based
approach to goblinisation, just assume that anyone with 1 or 2
intelligence is reduced to a vegetable by the transformation and dies
during it.

That makes the average intelligence of a troll 1.... Kinda harsh.

If you assume that the naturally low intelligences are affected less,
and the higher ones more, then you get a better view of things. Assume
that every troll-to be loses 1/3 of their intelligence, rounded up, when
they goblinise. Makes the maximum normal intelligence 4, and the average 2.

Double the perceptive ability!!

Hell, I can't believe that I just came up with a system on how to
goblinise a character.

Bleach

-One of my friends has a cat, 'Jasmine', named after her net handle.
I've decided I'm going do buy a white dog and call him Bleach, and when
people look at me strangely, I'll drool at them.

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:16:35 +0100

Message no. 33 Lady Jestyr said on 10:22/ 2 Apr 97...

> I can see this being the Australia-Through-Perth's-Eyes Sourcebook. I'm
> not holding out ANY hope on it being remotely useful.

This looks like it'll be yet another example of "Location sourcebooks are
cool, except when they deal with where I live" syndrome.

I think it's simply inevitable -- e.g. if I were to write a whole
sourcebook about the Netherlands, I'd probably picture a lot of people
not from my immediate area as mildly stereotyped too, leading them to
claim that I don't know shit about anything too...

Although it's always smart to avoid stupid geographical mistakes, like
putting cities on the wrong coast (IIRC that happened in the London
Sourcebook...).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Never a victim," the role-model said.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:16:35 +0100

Message no. 34 Avenger said on 23:12/ 1 Apr 97...

> Well, yeah I guess so in some cases, however, Gen-ichi, had a real
> problem with Japan as a last bastion,

I didn't even know somebody had written a Japan sourcebook outside of the
net (and I even haven't looked at that last one. Is it available in
English?) but anyway, from the various things FASA has told us about Japan
it would be really strange if that country were to appear as some
enlightened state in a sourcebook... Minor discrepancies, like the
difference in games stats between Lone Star cops in the adventures and the
LS sourcebook, I can live with. Changing the way a whole country "feels"
isn't the way to write about it, OTOH.

> I certainly don't want England to be a glowing example of normality

That would call for major changes between now and 2050. *grin*

> so much of [Europe and the Middle East] have been destroyed by fASA,
> loosely termed as irradiated or toxic... Ho hum...

Maybe it's because some people think you can make a dark world by
destroying parts of it in not-nice ways? For example, the way lots of
nuclear power plants suffered meltdowns, according to the history in the
Black Book. Why?

> Yeah, but FanPro isn't officially FASA, they are licenced by FASA, to
> have FASA sanction there joke by printing it in English and thereby
> reinforcing some of the stupid ideas they put forth... Well. <no further
> comment>

Nonetheless, because it's in print people will take it as "the truth"
(whatever that may be :) a lot faster, even if FanPro only has a license
from FASA. Also, FanPro stuff, according to the text in the front of the
Germany Sourcebook, takes precedence over FASA-published material when
you (the players, not the characters) play in Germany.

> Total agreement from me on that. None of my players have had access to
> the Threats book so far, because I intend using some of it later on, it
> won't be so much fun for them knowing what's coming at them.

The way I picture Threats, is that the GM uses one of the groups to build
a campaign around, and at some point in it the players uncover enough
information about it so the GM hands them the book and allows them to read
the relevant chapter. The only real way (IMO) you can do that now is by
photocopying the pages, cut off the GM material, and give the copies to
the players.

> >Nonetheless I say it's a good move.
>
> Oh yes, it's a good idea, I just don't see it happening. In browsing
> around the net, and maliciously stealing loads of stuff for my game,

That's what the stuff is put on the WWW for in the first place, isn't it?

> I was incredibly disappointed with Underworld, I didn't find anything
> in there really to help me with organised crime in 2058, that I couldn't
> pick up from a Jackie Chan or James Cagney movie, and the inclusion of
> already detailed gangs, and ...

I haven't seen Underworld yet, but I guess I'll have it the day after
tomorrow, when I come back from a con. From what you're saying, it looks
like it more or less suffers from the same kind of things as the CorpSec
Handbook -- that there's not much in it that you can't think up yourself
if you give it some thought?

> No I'll stop there, before I get start a row in here.

You're pretty good at it :)

> >There aren't even links to BT, ED, or SR players' pages on FASA's web
> >page, even though Lou Prosperi asked for URLs on the ED list a few months
> >before FASA's page first got put up.
>
> This is something I do find strange, the amount of web support is
> phenomenal for Shadowrun, and I can't believe that teh SR team haven't
> bosed around some of them, yet their reticence in including a page of
> liks in their Shadowland area is "odd".

My thoughts exactly. And if they don't want to do it themselves, some
script could easily be added that allows anyone dropping by to add a link,
like on Paolo's page.

> In my not so humble opinion, FASA should be proud that people are
> prepared to devote so much time and energy - and web space - to a simple
> game.

At any rate it beats the "Hi, I'm Joe Blow and this is what I look like"
kind of pages there are way too many of already :)

> Unless of course there's a more sinister reason, after all it is FASA
> "Corporation" <g> maybe they don't want to acknowledge the web
sites,
> as it would mean they approve of the content of these sites, and
> recognise that they are unofficial Shadowrun sites, thereby forcing them
> to reduce the silly limitations on submissions.

You're saying that as if it's a Bad Thing(tm) :)

> HIghly unlikely is it :) Can you imagine some oik out there on the net
> getting offended because FASA linked to their page, god that'd be the
> ultimate in ludicrous. <g>

I know I wouldn't...

> Ah, but to give normal payment for submitted articles, they would then
> have to "land mail" their web site, or ideas to FASA on the offchance
> that they might be acceptable, and sit around for weeks on end waiting
> for the post office to deliver and eventually bring back that all
> important accept/reject slip. It conjurs quite a silly picture really.

You're saying that because the web is electronic, and FASA doesn't accept
electronic submissions, they can't pull stuff off a web site and ask the
author's permission to publish it in a book? Well yeah, if you look at it
that way, it makes sense somehow...

But still, looking at the amount of stuff out there (for nearly any
game, not just FASA-published ones), I find it surprising that almost no
game company pays attention to the net. Just as an example, although SR
isn't a gear-oriented game, there is more equipment on my page than in all
FASA sourcebooks combined. Then there are the loads of country/city/area
descriptions, spells, vehicles, a handful of paranormal animals, and
whathavewe that get put up on web sites. There has to be /something/
worthwhile in all that...

> Even so, in a way he has received payment, a $10-15 book, and his name
> in print under Talsorians lable, that's not bad really. :) It'd sure
> make someone like me happy, but then I've never been fussy <grin>

Same thing here.

[submission guidelines]
> Seconded, it put me off too, it seemed like an awful lot of hassle, when
> elsewhere would consider material with much less trouble.

I guess a problem for me here is that I'm much better in coming up with
rules and gear than in working out story elements, and there's this thing
I read in those submission guidelines about FASA wanting new authors to
write an adventure first...

> OK, I have heard of other companies getting themselves into law suits,
> and there's the almost legendary battle between FASA and the other
> company over the Battlemech designs, but really, do they honestly
> believe that we're all like that?

One thing I've learned from paying a little attention to corporate America
is that they think _everybody_ is out to make money from their work. What
else explains all the trademarks and registered trademarks?

> And that's the biggy. No E-mailed submissions.

What bugs me about that is that I absolutely for the life of me can't see
the point of not accepting email proposals for sourcebooks. From my POV,
the only thing it does is take several weeks out of the submission
process, nothing more...

> submitting an entire sourcebook, printed and wrapped, is damned
> expensive from England, if only because of the weight of all that paper,
> from the continent I can't see that there's any greater advantage.

Tell me about it... I'll be having to send a couple hundred pages to the
US next week.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Never a victim," the role-model said.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	"Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 10:01:07 -0600

Message no. 35 On 10:42 AM 4/2/97 +0100, Gurth screamed at the world:
>Glenn Robertson said on 11:37/ 1 Apr 97...
>
>> However, a simple map-and-history of the world up to Shadowrun times
>> would be a much bigger hit than the average sourcebooks.
>
>I think so too. IMHO there are two things that would be a tremendous help
>to the typical SR GM: a map, and regular updates on what's happening in
>the world. In games set in a fixed time, all that's necessary is one good
>book that deals with a region, and that's it. Shadowrun, however, is
>constantly moving forward, and you can't expect that everything from a
>sourcebook dealing with North America in 2051/52 (the NAGNA) is still true
>in 2058, for example.

Such a project was discussed at FASA and shelved before Mike became DLoH.
Over a year ago, I e-mailed him some points that someone else on the list
wanted to have in a Sixth World Almanac. Mike's response was something on
the line of "Where did you hear about that project?" Those were the first
time we on the list heard about the "Flash Points" project, now known as
the Target: Series of books.

-Thomas Deeny
telltale.hart.org

"You have selected regicide. If you know the name of the king or queen
being murdered, press one."
-Springfield Police Department Resc-u-Fone Voice Mail, "Bart of
Darkness",
The Simpsons.

From:	David van Nederveen Meerkerk <D.N.M.vanNederveen@***.RUU.NL>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 19:03:08 +0200

Message no. 36 >
> On 10:42 AM 4/2/97 +0100, Gurth screamed at the world:
> >Glenn Robertson said on 11:37/ 1 Apr 97...
> >
> >I think so too. IMHO there are two things that would be a tremendous help
> >to the typical SR GM: a map, and regular updates on what's happening in
> >the world. In games set in a fixed time, all that's necessary is one good
> >book that deals with a region, and that's it. Shadowrun, however, is
> >constantly moving forward, and you can't expect that everything from a
> >sourcebook dealing with North America in 2051/52 (the NAGNA) is still true
> >in 2058, for example.
>
> Such a project was discussed at FASA and shelved before Mike became DLoH.
> Over a year ago, I e-mailed him some points that someone else on the list
> wanted to have in a Sixth World Almanac. Mike's response was something on
> the line of "Where did you hear about that project?" Those were the first
> time we on the list heard about the "Flash Points" project, now known as
> the Target: Series of books.

I mailed several times with Mike about a "in-game" newspaper, a bit like
the old adventures had and we now have with their website, but then more
extensive and covering more of the world, preferably the whole world,
but it could be narrowed to at least the parts we already have books of.
In germnay they do this with a fantasy game called DSA (Das Schwarze
Auge - The Black Eye, the English version of the game is Realms of
Arkania). In this game they have newspaper which comes out every two
months and details all the happenings in the world, both related with
published adventures and non-related stuff. There's one huge campaign
going there now, and the new edition of the newspaper is sometimes
more anticipated then new releases of the game. I said to Mike I even
wanted to do something like this for their website fo free (but it would
measn I'd get to know all the secrest :-). It wouldn't have been the 28
pages per 2 months of DSA, but it would be better then what we have now,
because the website only deals with the Dunkie murder and the first
target book we'll get will cover the UCAS, of which we know already
alot. It will be great, because we will have finally an update on Bug
City etc. (I think something should have happened there within a year;
either the bugs breaking out or the army suppressing them, this really
takes too long). But well, Mike said they're not inbterested in such a
thing, so too bad :-( It really would be great to read about
non-big-campaign-related stuff like the ongoing murders in Aztlan, the
latest political news from the Tirs, the quarrels between the Bavarian
states, etc., to name a few things which would be great to have. Now, we
now nothing about the Tirs, Germnay, etc. after their published dates
except for a few hints in novels, shadowtalk etc. And of the rest of the
world we hardly know anything! So Mike please if you read this consider
it again, or at least the World Map / Guide to the world's countries.
This on ereally would sell, it's not your "regular place-sourcebook".
And everyone who agrees with this, let him know!

VrGr

David

*****************************************************************************
This is not a signature, I type it every mail again.

David "42" van Nederveen Meerkerk
Warande 128
3705 ZK Zeist
Netherlands
tel: +31 (0)30 6951487
work: +31 (0)20 6255537
D.N.M.vanNederveen@***.ruu.nl
http://www.fys.ruu.nl/~nederv1

From:	david lowe <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:10:09 -0800

Message no. 37 At 6:54 PM 4/2/97, MARTIN E. GOTTHARD wrote:

>Hell, trash my hometown any day.....( If I wrote the Aus. sourcebook
>Brisbane would be better than Syndey, but only on the basis that it's
>smaller and less industralised.) Just make sure there's a reason
>beyond making yet another toxic zone for the sake of making toxic zones.

I'm not bothered by the trashing of my hometown, it's when they get little
details like geography and economics completely wrong, and come up with
stupid quasi-fantasy stuff. Don't get me wrong, I play that other fantasy
RPG on a regular basis, but I like to leave it in that game, not bring it
into my SR game.

D.

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:24:51 +0100

Message no. 38 In message <rofkm2AJpdQzEwDT@*******.demon.co.uk>, Avenger
<Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK> writes
>With all due respect, we have constructions now that are far older than
>7 thousand years, adn although their construction is not understsood,
>they are there for the world to see, so I don't think it's far fetched
>at all. Plus, look at the amount of time that ED covers, and the
>dwarven (plus others) buildings stood up then. :)

Yeah, but how many of them are caves - not many caves last 7,000 years
without maintenance - and how many aren't still in use?

Cities tend to form in certain places and stay there: they get abandoned
when uninhabitable (most usually climate change), not usually otherwise.

A dwarf nation who were centred on, say, Edinburgh, might have trouble
persuading the rest of the city to go away :)

>OK, but as far as I was aware, the racial modifiers are there for
>characters, not street types who already have the mods factored in, I
>could be wrong though.

Nope, the Critters table in SRII indicates that average Troll
intelligence is indeed 1.

>Still takes time, and a bit more than 40+ years. The United States and
>Japanese economen more than 40+ years to get to the point where they are
>world powers. One through strength, the other through materials.
>
>Tairngire just "happened"

Ehran waved a magic wand and Harlequin polished a lamp and they used a
hidden trove of Fourth Age (?) treasure and so on...

Bleah. Death to all Elven Immortals!

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:15:24 -0800

Message no. 39 At 05:02 4/2/97 +0100, Avenger wrote:
>With all due respect, we have constructions now that are far older than
>7 thousand years, adn although their construction is not understsood,
>they are there for the world to see, so I don't think it's far fetched
>at all.

Which constructions are you talking about? The Egyptian Pyramids
aren't that old, and they're free-standing structures. Ditto Stonehenge.

> Plus, look at the amount of time that ED covers, and the
>dwarven (plus others) buildings stood up then. :)

Yes, but those had (a) people there to maintain them and (b) a strong
possibility of magic available to hold them together.

>OK, but as far as I was aware, the racial modifiers are there for
>characters, not street types who already have the mods factored in, I
>could be wrong though.

I assume that all people in the world are characters; most are NPC's.
The mods are there to show how the different metatypes differ from human.

>>A certain degree of power is required in order to be taken seriously.
>>It doesn't have to be military power; it can be economic. I'd be a lot
>>happier if there were news of human beings complaining about being unable
>>to study civil engineering at universities in the Troll Kingdom of the
>>Black Forest, or electrical engineering in a Dwarven kingdom, or ...

>Yeah, I tend to agree with you here. :)

Actually, scratch that "electrical engineering" in a Dwarven kingdom; that's
awfully stereotyped of me. It should be an *MBA* in a Dwarven kingdom.
(Dwarves have the +1 to Willpower. They must turn out *great* negotiators.)

>>The major mojo was a key factor in being able to get a soverign nation
>>to cede some of its land to another one. Almost all the territory of
>>the planet, other than Antarctica (and Greenland?) is staked out by now.

>Is it? I tend to think not. Their may be claims on the territory, but
>enforcing those claims may not be as financially viable as the threat
>implies.

Could you provide some examples of such territory? North and Central
America both seem completely spoken for in the sourcebooks. Amazonia
has a big chunk of South America, and I think the rest of the continent
down to Tierra del Fuego is taken as well. (But speaking of the
"invite people in to take over abandoned industrialized cities", I bet
Amazonia could do some serious recruiting for people to come and do that
in their territory. Maybe they've got Dwarfish Guiana, Orkish Guiana, and
Trollish Guiana down there!)

>>How about a highly educated population that provides a pool of skilled
>>labor to fuel a new economy?

>Still takes time, and a bit more than 40+ years. The United States and
>Japanese economen more than 40+ years to get to the point where they are
>world powers. One through strength, the other through materials.

>Tairngire just "happened"

It certainly needed some very competent conspirators behind it. But
the basic trick with Tir Tairngire was to draw the lines that defined
a country inside an existing industrialized country and then suddenly
sever the ones that made it a part of the rest of another country. They
had lots of insiders helping them at megacorps (in order to get their hands
on all that military equipment). TT wasn't an *instant* world power:
they started out as a nice little conquering regime, and it took a decade
or two to become a real economic force.

>>Time? Yes. Opportunity? No.

>The opportunity was there, while the elves were fighting for their
>country, the NAN were fighting for theirs, the other races got ignored
>in the mad rush to create the IE home. Shame really, as it was an ideal
>time for other races to take the same measures, or at least follow in
>suit. While the new nations are forming, they are not likely to want to
>get involved in further conflict. But it was seen fit to ignore the
>possibilities.

Actually, I'd find it less believable that multiple different metagroups
managed to finagle the support needed to break a nation away from an
existing territory. Tir Tairngire had some very talented conspirators
acquiring all that military equipment for them; I don't believe they
would've succeeded without that. (The dragons and elven sorcerers made
the job easier, but I don't believe they could've done it without serious
mechanized support.) Of course, there's always the way California went:
managing to be written off as a bad investment...

>>I don't get that impression from reading the sourcebooks. Can you cite
>>anything that suggests that to you?

>OK, Using the rather crappy UCAS map that comes with the source books,
>only major cities are mentioned. The extremely large populations of
>listed cities, and a number of other indicators, that suggest what is
>left of humankind is centralising in the megacities, and the rest of the
>land is being left to those hardy enough to want to remain and the new
>nations. There aren't sufficient people in the NAN or Tairngire to
>populate the massive areas of Canada and the US that they've taken over,
>again indicating that there are areas of low-zero population.

Actually, I suspect that lots of Tir Tairngire got reforested by the
magics that created the faux-old-growth forests. I forget the population
statistics for the NAN, but the Amerind population of North America is
quite low; frankly, I expect that most of the NAN is mixed-race people
who could prove some Amerind blood and useful job skills. I expect that
the UCAS and Quebec aren't much different from how those areas are these
days, because they had to resettle all the Anglos coming out of the
NAN territories, which should more than offset the deaths due to VITAS
and other disasters. The NAN is your best bet for resettleable areas in
North America; all the good industrial centers are probably taken. The
problem is that they probably don't want another Tir Tairngire...

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Thu, 3 Apr 1997 00:36:19 +0100

Message no. 40 In article <CtepQMADKrQzEwGt@********.demon.co.uk>, "Paul J. Adam"
<shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK> writes
>In message <rofkm2AJpdQzEwDT@*******.demon.co.uk>, Avenger
><Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK> writes

>>at all. Plus, look at the amount of time that ED covers, and the
>>dwarven (plus others) buildings stood up then. :)
>
>Yeah, but how many of them are caves - not many caves last 7,000 years
>without maintenance - and how many aren't still in use?

Leaving the UK out of it, because places like Stonehenge etc are
regularly visited by thousands of people every year. ALthough we've yet
to find something as simple as Avalon... :)

But looking more to the civilisations of South/Central America. That
Mayan contructions, (and this comes from "official" archaeological
material) *may* be greater than 10,000 years old. Some are acknowledged
to be between 5 and 7,000. The newer ones are 500 - 2,000+ And
although much of these civilisations and their buildings is still buried
in the jungles, it has stood up amazingly well to time, and they're not
just caves. :)

There was also a recent discovery of a village somewhere or other, that
is almost perfectly preserved, showing thatched roofed constructions of
a few thousands years age. So.. who's to say what's buried under the
sands of the middle east. After all, there is some considerable digging
in Israel outside a couple of their towns, where they think they've
found sites mentioned in the bible. There are a considerable number of
constructions from the Native American tribes that stretch back a long
ways, so, buildings and constructions surviving isn't so strange. if
they are put together well enough, and the Dwarves _are_ master
craftsmen, then ther is no reason they couldn't survive. How do we find
sites to dig now. Satellite surveillance, aerial surveys, old maps,
writings and codex that are found in one site, lead to another. The
cities in South and Central America were stumbled upon by explorers, and
tracked through Spanish writings, Roman sites are found by accident or
tracked through materials found in other sites. It's not a rapid
progress, not by a long shot, but the insistence of elves in having a
history, would, I think, logically set off other races into finding out
the truth of the matter, and investigating their own past. I mean, if
people have been writing about Dragons and Dwarves, elves and Fairies
for centuries, and suddenly they appear in RL, then there must therefore
be something somewhere that gives answers to questions. Answers these
new races would desperately want.

>Cities tend to form in certain places and stay there: they get abandoned
>when uninhabitable (most usually climate change), not usually otherwise.
>
Like Detroit you mean <g>

>A dwarf nation who were centred on, say, Edinburgh, might have trouble
>persuading the rest of the city to go away :)

OK, but then making someone from Edinburgh do _anything_ he/she doesn't
want to is almost impossible :) As you well know. They're almost as
stubborn as Glaswegians. <g>

>Nope, the Critters table in SRII indicates that average Troll
>intelligence is indeed 1.

Fair enough, so I'm wrong. I do admit it occassionally <g>

>>Tairngire just "happened"
>
>Ehran waved a magic wand and Harlequin polished a lamp and they used a
>hidden trove of Fourth Age (?) treasure

This is ... <nope, shut up Pete.... >

>and so on...
>
>Bleah. Death to all Elven Immortals!

Hear hear!!! :)

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 23:31:34 +0100

Message no. 41 In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.970402181103.13099F-100000@*****.student.gu.ed
u.au>, "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU> writes

>> endless generalised hints on so much of the SR world. The rather silly
>> photographs in POAD, concerning Mars, what is the present condition of
>> Ares/NASA, what orbitals are there, and why. (A space book please -
>> hell I'll even write it.) :)
>
>You too, eh?.... I found the pictures a little out of the loopy-left
>faction of world paradigms featured at the moment.

Yeah, just a bit. When you consider the wealth of material around at
the moment, I find it amazing that they insist on a flying saucer that
existed in some crappy sixties scifi series, can't remember the name of
it, it was so good.

>Next thing you
>know in the next sourcebook, there's going to be an alien ships concealed
>behind an inbound comet.

You may jest... but it would not surprise me in the least, probably
carrying even more immortal elves come to rule this planet in the
almighty name of munchkinism. <g>

>> Ditto. It's so refreshing to see that there are more than two IE haters
>> on this list.
>>
>Me?? I started the furore (I like to think)

Maybe, maybe not, I don't know.

>> <hits off switch before rant takes full hold...>
>
>Yay! That one was good enough to save in my read-mail folder.

Maybe I should have gone into full stretch then... NAh, I go on way too
much as it is. :)

>> The Emperor is the son of the gods. There have been attempts in the
>> past to remove him, most recently at the end of the second war.
>
>The attempt would have been made by the American occupying army if
>anybody....

As far as I recall it, without digging out some very dusty history
books, they did make the suggestion, but at the time several members of
the ruling military weren't happy that the war was continuing and the
emperor wouldn't surrender to save his country, once he did surrender,
the remainder of the military, those who wanted a glorious death for
Japan, were extremely opposed to his continuing in the position, the
Americans, in their desire to break Japans' power and national pride
were "encouraging" his removal. In the end, it was reason and the fact
that the populace revered him so highly that he remained in power. Not
necessarily a bad thing.

>I doubt the Japanese would have mad that attempt by
>themeselves (I don't know the history; I know their pyschology).

Actually, there have been previous attempts to replace the Emperor in
the past, but they have been unsuccessful for obvious reasons. Too many
powerful people support the Emperor, ultimately to take him out of
office, throughout their history, meant going up against some extremely
powerful people. Usually the attempts ended in failure, though one
incident changed the power base in Japan and ousted one of the oldest of
the ruling families, the victor recognised the Emperors use in
controlling the people, and the massive PR and propoganda machine he
represented, and chose to leave him in the "Palace".

>If there's one thing the Japanese are good at (with the exception of
>improving other peoples ideas), it's resisting cultural change.

They have a very strong cultural history, something they are very proud
of. When you consider the respect the Japanese treat each other with,
it is understandable that they would cling to that culture, while
fiercely rejecting the anarchic freedom Western civilisation represents.

Though I don't personally believe the crime statistics that are
published in Japan, it is quite possible that their crime rate is lower
than the US, or Europe, if only for the simple reason that there is a
certain "way" of doing things. The tongs, Yakuza etc are their biggest
problem, far more so than the US problem with the Mafia, because of
their "honour" and "code", the members of these organisations are
fanatically loyal to their "masters", making cracking the rings
extremely difficult. Also, they don't seem to have a preference for
massive gun battles with opposition clans, settling the matter with a
nice civilised battle between a couple of champions. I mean, let's face
it, when was the last time any pitched battle between organised crime
and the Police in Japan made it to Western tv, even though many
westerners live there, and a couple of agencies have reporteres there.

They do have problems, the more recent was the alledged poisoning of an
underground tube station in Tokyo but that fella. (name escapes me) and
a couple of related crimes. I think the simple repsect of Japanese for
their culture and the strong caste system they live by, helps to prevent
the typical crimes that Americans and to a lesser extend Europeans face
everyday.

>If there's one thing I don't forgive america doing during or after the
>war, it's breaking all the Japanese swords they could find. (A forced
>'swords into ploughshares' thing, and also symbolically breaking the
>will of the remaining warriors)

It served it's purpose. It was a mistaken attempt by the victorious
troops to break the Bushido tradition many of Japans military followed,
the breaking of a sword in defeat is symbolic with all nations and stems
back to the crusades and before. It also served to drive home that the
war was over, and further resistance would not be tolerated. So,
instead of exacting vengeance on occupational troops, the Japanese
concentrated on rebuilding their country and their culture, and in my
opinion have done a far better job of taking over the world through
peaceful means than they ever would have done through war.

Punching this logic through to 2058, I can see massive opportunities for
Japanese shadowrunners in Japan. With a tremendous amount of
competition between the Japanese corporations. I should think that
(contrary to the Underworld book) the Yakuzza would be more
"respectable", becoming involved deeper in big business, and leaving
some of their more "gang-like" mentality behind. Loyalty and honour
would be even more strictly enforced in the corporations, leaving the
majority of the industrial and economic espionage carried out by sub-
contracted people, either people from the Yakuza clans, or "ronin",
masterless warriors who work for the money, and operate with no ties.
The attraction of the ronin is twofold, they have no honour in the eyes
of Japanese Bushido, being in their position as a result of (misfortune)
cowardice or caste. The advantage being that they are extremely loyal
to their employer, and will fight bitterly to regain their honour, or
maintain their reputation, this makes them very determined and
trustworthy - for that run. It also means the company has access to
deniable assets, without the worry of traceable connections.

The organised crime syndicates would still hold their interests in the
fields of insurance, extortion, blackmail etc, as these are still
lucrative sources of income, and almost traditional, but I feel that
with the passage of time, the Yakuza would head towards a more
"respectable" face in business, but still keep their "historic
culture"
involved through the ranks, with sufficient involvement on other
activities to keep the title of "crime syndicate".

>I said feudalISED....

Ooopsy, sorry. Off to get my eyes fixed - again :)

>I agree that an outright feudal system wouldn't
>work, but the caste system could be highly enforced, especially if Japan
>goes through another isolationist period like they did in the past (The
>Meiji restoration, from memory) As it is right now, you have to go to
>the right KINDERGARTEN to get into the best universities.

Agreed. If anything is likely to take a greater hold on Japanese
society it will be the caste system. It is still in place today, and I
don't really see them every losing it, it's too heavily a part of who
they are, and their culture. If it is enforced even more strictly than
before, then the "daimyo/peasant" situation would be in place. With
certain families ruling the corporations, companies, and a variety of
social levels beneath that leading finally to the lowest of the low, the
undertakers and such like. With the "Shadowrunner" community beneath
this.

>I think that while military conquest will never go truly out of fashion,
>the major wars of the future are likely to be financial and industrial.

Military conquest today is a phenomenally expensive thing to maintain,
for example the billions of dollars it cost to go into the Gulf. It may
not be financially viable at all in the time of Shadowrun. I know it
was used to effect by Tir taringire when they subsumed some areas of
California, but that's not a subject I'm fond of. <g> Looking at the
price of banshees and other military articles in SR, they are cheaper
than todays armies, but still prohibitively expensive. Any military
action is most likely to occur in the 2058 version of the third world
countries, With coups to take power of ruling factions, or battles
between Warlords.

I don't agree at all with the general consencus that says China has
broken in Warlord states and no longer exists. China is one of the few
places in the world that is _very_ united. OK, the outlying areas would
most likely be dealt with by Warlords, and certain parts of the main
country would be divided by these into their own plots of land, but I
still feel that there would be a central government in Peking, and some
sort of "official" control. China is a considerable military power now,
the crash of 2012 is likely to have had less affect on the Chinese
populace than on the technology dependant West. The same goes for the
majority of Russia, that is today breaking into member states, a rot
that I don't see ending, but there is a central "Russian Federation", a
core of the old USSR, again something that is not as technologically
dependant as the West. Russians and Chinese are used to poverty and
difficulty, both are nations of great survivors, they manage to cope
with the worst possible weather and economic conditions, and survive, I
don't think the great problems Europe and America faced in 2012 would
affect them as strongly. Goblinisation would most likely have an
serious affect on them, as would the plague of VITAS, but China is
populated by several millions of people, even a fifty percent death
rate, leaves millions of people. Russia is more spaced out, with
population centres and is likely to have suffered to a greater extent,
possibly accelerating the fracturing into smaller member states, but
survivers in the Kremlin are going to want to unit as soon as possible,
in order to prevent the invasion of China that they fear so greatly, and
any unwanted encroachment from Europe. Remember, they won't immediately
be aware of the world situation, many places will consider it a
localised problem.

(Now what was I trying to say)..

Oh yes... So, although not unheard of, I would think that military
action would be limited to the very most essential involvement, as a
very last resort. Economic sanctions and industrial espionage are the
battlegrounds of the future, and most probably every bit as brutal and
bloody. With the corporations having built their power bases on the
bare bones of smaller companies, expanding their strength, influence and
power over the corpses of further companies. I don't completely agree
with the main assumption of many GMs that the world governments are
finished. The German and British governments are feared in their own
countries, yet are treated with supposed contempt in other source
material. Britain is dealt with in the worst way, by the implied power
of the government, and the fact that it is incredibly difficult to be a
Shadowrunner in the UK. The US is treated a little more favourably.
Yet even the all powerful corporations had to fight tooth and nail to be
given extraterritoriality, and that only means they can do certain
things on their _own_ land, it does not give them permission to do what
they like everywhere. Which means their must be fear and respect for
the US government from the corporations, not contempt, not disrespect,
and they certainly don't ignore them. If the Governments of the world
have no ppower or respect and no way to enforce their laws, why are the
corporations allowing themselves to be restricted to their own
territories in the same way as modern day embassies.

How extraterritoriality would stand in Asia, is a bit of a problem.
They might not restrict the corporations of their own country, yet
enforce it on those of another nation. Now, with the possibility of the
caste system in Japan strengthening, and their national pride becoming
more as it was in centuries past, it begs the question, How do they deal
with the "Gaijin" corps. This is where I tend to get a little brutal,
and others disagree.

>Oh, and if Fuchi and Mitsu go at it hammer and tong, it won't be in
>Japan; it'll be the rest of the world that suffers while an illusion of
>tranquility is preserved in the land of the Gods.

Fair enough, I can't disagree with this. There are excellent reasons
why the "Big" corporations are unlikely to really start something major
with each other, if only from a financial standpoint, it's not good to
the shareholders, and looks bad on the stockmarket, but certainly if
they so chose, they could make life unpleasant in the world markets,
until another corporation or company stepped in to fill the niche, which
may be a matter of a few months at the most, a few minutes in all
likelihood. This is part of the reason I don't hold with corporate
armies, and conflict. It loses them business and profit, and _all_
corporations/companies are based on profit, without it they cease to
exist. Shadowrunners are the armies of the corporations, not massive
great mechanised battallions stored in secret bases, that's just crap.

I still believe that in the future, more so than now, profit is going to
be the driving force of the corps. with other corporations attempting to
cut into that profit, the battleground... The stock market.

>> Hmm.. I won't comment on the London sourcebook, most here are already
>> aware of my impression on that particular piece. <g>
>>
>I'm not;

Believe me, you don't want me to start on that one, it goes on
considerably, and usually involves other sourcebooks as well. It sounds
mainly like I'm really sour at FASA and hate Shadowrun. I don't, I like
Shadowrun a lot, much more so than other rival games. What I have done,
is to rewrite vast amounts of the sourcebooks I don't like, and
incorporate material from other games, like Rifts, and CP2020. This
means I am unable to get involved in rules debates... Mainly because the
few times I have, I've been in the wrong rules system, and using a
concept from the wrong darned book :)

>I'm not a huge fan of the London Sourcebook either, for reasons
>I can't quite define..... Possible because the Elves run the ruling class
>*again*

Absolutely no comment...
<grits teeth in deperate attempt to avoid blatant invitation to rant>

>I'll go check it out.....
It's well worth a visit, some of the grammar is a bit twitchy, but hell,
that's nothing to complain about. The source material is far from
complete, but they are working on it dilligently, and have a good graps
of what they think things should be like. I'm a fan anyway :)

>> Yeah, and by the looks of things, you'll be waiting even longer. I have
>> the feeling that it had been turned into another massive Elven nation,
>> and Mike realised that FASA would likely be torched if he allowed it's
>> release.
>>
>Me too..... I remember way back in the dawns of time when Urdli (SOP
>trilogy) was an Immortal Elf as well.... god that annoys me.

??? Sorry, not familiar with this.
<Assumes they're novels and dismisses it out of hand as crap.>

>I've written some material to do with the general state of Australia as
>we'd like to see it (ie, our Brisbane group, and Calcin Hseih in Sydney),
>just in case the official sourcebook sucks drek. It's currently going
>to be posted on my friends homepage when she remembers to do it.

Lady J, sometimes needs a little encouragement to get something done,
she likes the net, mail and fun a little too much for her own good.
</off parental concern>

>It's by no means complete, but it's a start..... Harrass Lady J to get
>it up on her page if you're interested in reading it.

As most people regularly request more information on the world areas, I
can see that it would be popular, and most likely invite mucho comments.
:)

>> They were more than happy to take his archive and stick it on their
>> site, a move that may set a precedent amongst game companies, though I
>> doubt it.
>>
>God I wish; I'd like to see FASA do a tour of the net, In particular the
>Webring and make their own collection of stuff they consider suitable....
>Their homepage needs some serious dynamic updating; It's been static for
>months.

The Webring though very good (mucho kudos to J for that one) isn't the
end of it. There are hundreds of sites out there, all of which may have
something worthy, even if it's just one piece of equipment. One of the
most interesting articles I downloaded, was something one of my players
was interested in, Martial Arts rules. We changed it around a teeny bit
to fit into our game world a bit better, but DDM had thought it out, in
my opinion very well, and was nicely balanced for the game, I've not
seen an update for that recently... must check. :)

The one thing that I do like, is the continual series of books that
Gurth churns out, they at least do attempt to maintain a sense of
progress in SR, even though the majority are based around conversions
from other systems. Funny really, when you consider the huge publicity
and popularity of these "net books" Talsorian have never once mentioned
that they shouldn't be done, rather nice of them really. Gurth provides
the material, and people buy the book for the in depth stuff. :) I know
it is as a result of one of his netbooks that set me off collecting the
CP2020 books, which reminds me, I still need three for the set.

>> contributions to the Chrome Book, people were just very happy to be a
>> part of the official material and get their name in print.... the
>> fifteen minutes of fame thing. :)
>
>As if I'd need to be paid. If I got my name in the book I'd be happy
>(though I've only written a modest amount of stuff for SR on the net so
>far)

That, I think is how the majority of people would look at it. It'd be
such a good feeling to get something you did into an official FASA
source product, that who cares about standard submission payment. It's
something that would be nice of FASA, and possibly popular, though it's
debateable. Chrome 4 was a good seller, even though it used net
material. I can't really see FASA going for it though, don't ask why.
I just can't. :(

>> I don't think so. Have you read the FASA Submission Guidelines? They
>> are incredibly draconian, and very demanding.
>>
>FASA's been to court a few times with other companies for breach of
>copyright (both sides of the fence), and they've gotten burned pretty
>badly.... I guess they want to avoid getting sued by individuals as well.

Oh I know, the one battle over Mech designs is almost legendary in its
proportions, but the chances of one person wanting to indulge in this
kind of behaviour is not likely. Provided they have asked the person if
they mind, no worries. After all, the stuff is there free for us to
download, we just need to ask the people concerned before doing anything
else with it, and that's really more of a courtesy than a legal
necessity. I can't imagine Talsorian suffering for their production of
Chrome 4, because it's material provided by people who are heavily into
the game itself, I think the same would apply to those chosen to provide
for Shadowrun. They are fans of the game, and support it in many
different ways, playing, buying and web material.

>Well, frag it; A lot of American players want to see the rest of the
>world detailed too, Just not all of them.

I know, but it's very difficult. Many of them are not interested, they
have the same problem imagining Australia, Germany, Britain, as we do of
seeing in our minds what Denver, Seattle, Chicago look like. Okay,
there is a wealth of movie material, but that's not indicative of the
location, just a small area.

Sleepless in Seattle, gave me a live look at the Space Needle,
Crocodile Dundee showed me some of the outback, along with Blue Lagoon,
but they aren't reflective of the countries. I've heard it said by
some Americans that they won't use the London sourcebook because its too
difficult to imagine what England is like, the same applies to me,
although much of my game is based in Seattle, I'm most comfortable with
UK or European based runs.

>Anyway, this is an epic email and while it's not off topic as such, it
>could be considered spam by some.

I don't think it can be considered spam at all. This is a Shadowrun
list, and at no point has the mail gone off topic. OK, it's got into a
fair old length, but still is related to the world of Shadowrun, if not
the rules. Anyway, most here are used to my epics, and as for the
newcomers, they'll figure out that I have way too much time on my hands
:)

>I hope we haven't annoyed anyone out there too much. If we have; Cope,
>jut this once *grin*

I doubt it. :)
(that you've annoyed anyone that is... )

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/

From:	Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:39:42 -0800

Message no. 42 At 23:31 4/2/97 +0100, Avenger wrote:
>In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.970402181103.13099F-100000@*****.student.gu.ed
>u.au>, "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU> writes
>>You too, eh?.... I found the pictures a little out of the loopy-left
>>faction of world paradigms featured at the moment.

>Yeah, just a bit. When you consider the wealth of material around at
>the moment, I find it amazing that they insist on a flying saucer that
>existed in some crappy sixties scifi series, can't remember the name of
>it, it was so good.

The cheesy flying saucer picture in Dunkelzahn's Will is there for a good
reason.

s
p
o
i
l
e
r

s
p
a
c
e

f
o
r

y
o
u
r

p
r
o
t
e
c
t
i
o
n

It's put there by a decker (on Earth) who stole the data from a Mars probe
and wanted to thumb their nose at the folks who sent it, leaving everything
scrambled with just the cheesy flying saucer photo we saw.

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Thu, 3 Apr 1997 00:17:02 +0100

Message no. 43 In article <199704020840.KAA26653@**********.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> writes
>Glenn Robertson said on 11:37/ 1 Apr 97...
>
>> However, a simple map-and-history of the world up to Shadowrun times
>> would be a much bigger hit than the average sourcebooks.
>
>I think so too. IMHO there are two things that would be a tremendous help
>to the typical SR GM: a map, and regular updates on what's happening in
>the world. In games set in a fixed time, all that's necessary is one good
>book that deals with a region, and that's it. Shadowrun, however, is
>constantly moving forward, and you can't expect that everything from a
>sourcebook dealing with North America in 2051/52 (the NAGNA) is still true
>in 2058, for example.

And let's face it the Chrome Books and updates that are provided by
Talsorian don't put them out any more than producing a "proper"
sourcebook. The fans like them and buy them, as would Shadowrun
players, and it has the added effect of keeping moaning minnies like me
happy. <g>

Somebody else (sorry, flew past the post) suggested that somebody ask
for submissions and compiles the stuff into a book, with added comments
and acknowledging the providers, something along the lines of what you
are doing at the moment with the NAGTTW on NERPS. Ok, that's a good
idea, but it has one tragic fault. It would not be accepted as canon
with the list, and other people, and therefore would not be used as a
reflection of the world. Only something produced by FASA would receive
the credibility of "canon" regardless of how good it might be. I've
often considered doing precisely that, but I don't see the point. It
would be used by some, hated by others, and never accepted by anyone as
a "solid" view. It also runs the risk of being massively contradicted
by FASA at a later date, also partly the reason there's no SR related
stuff on my site, only game stuff from Shadowtk and links to other
sites.

A fun thing to do, sure. I have endless amounts of time on my hands,
and only a couple of urgent commitments at the moment. And (I should
think) enough available space on the web server to do it... But...

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/

From:	Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:43:21 -0800

Message no. 44 At 00:36 4/3/97 +0100, Avenger wrote:
>But looking more to the civilisations of South/Central America. That
>Mayan contructions, (and this comes from "official" archaeological
>material) *may* be greater than 10,000 years old. Some are acknowledged
>to be between 5 and 7,000. The newer ones are 500 - 2,000+ And
>although much of these civilisations and their buildings is still buried
>in the jungles, it has stood up amazingly well to time, and they're not
>just caves. :)

Are these freestanding buildings or things that are being dug out of the
ground? And are these even the Mayans, or some older mesoamerican people?
I thought the Mayans were a strictly first millennium CE bunch. The
Olmecs go back to the early second millennium BCE, but I didn't think
they had anything left standing. The Pueblo Indians had some interesting
cliff dwellings, but those are closer to the Aztec era, not very long
before Columbus showed up.

>There was also a recent discovery of a village somewhere or other, that
>is almost perfectly preserved, showing thatched roofed constructions of
>a few thousands years age.

Buried structures aren't habitable as is, have a tendency to crumble
when you pull the dirt out of them, and are unlikely to be useful places
for territory-seeking metahumans to settle. (Extremely inspiring to
peoples who would appreciate having a history to be proud of, yes.
A place to settle, no...)

> So.. who's to say what's buried under the
>sands of the middle east.

Babylon, Sumer, Uruk...

> After all, there is some considerable digging
>in Israel outside a couple of their towns, where they think they've
>found sites mentioned in the bible. There are a considerable number of
>constructions from the Native American tribes that stretch back a long
>ways, so, buildings and constructions surviving isn't so strange.

Are any of these constructions remotely habitable by human beings?

> if
>they are put together well enough, and the Dwarves _are_ master
>craftsmen, then ther is no reason they couldn't survive.

Two words: "tectonic activity".

> the insistence of elves in having a
>history, would, I think, logically set off other races into finding out
>the truth of the matter, and investigating their own past.

One decently-preserved kaer with evidence of lots of non-Elves getting
along together could do a great deal for the self esteem of metahumans.
It doesn't need to be habitable-- just documentable!

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Thu, 3 Apr 1997 00:09:03 +0100

Message no. 45 In article <199704021015.MAA19010@**********.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> writes
>Avenger said on 23:12/ 1 Apr 97...
>
>> Well, yeah I guess so in some cases, however, Gen-ichi, had a real
>> problem with Japan as a last bastion,
>
>I didn't even know somebody had written a Japan sourcebook outside of the
>net

It wasn't common knowledge. I seem to recall a post from Gen-ichi
himself ranting about the crap release from this company, and how he and
some friends in Japan were producing something to counter it. :)

>(and I even haven't looked at that last one. Is it available in
>English?)

Yes it is. Both English and Japanese. Now there's dedication for you
:)

>but anyway, from the various things FASA has told us about Japan
>it would be really strange if that country were to appear as some
>enlightened state in a sourcebook...

That's what cheesed Gen-ichi so much. It was in direct contradiction
with everything Shadowrun stood for, and massively contradicted the
little information FASA has given out. He was not a happy chap.

>LS sourcebook, I can live with. Changing the way a whole country "feels"
>isn't the way to write about it, OTOH.

You are not alone in _that_ opinion.

>> I certainly don't want England to be a glowing example of normality
>
>That would call for major changes between now and 2050. *grin*

Damn right it would. If there's one thing Britain ain't, it's "normal"
<snigger> Nevertheless. Although FASA do have the decency to ask
people of the host nation to write sourcebooks, I don't feel that they
are totally fair about it. They don't seem to take a broad spread of
people from different areas to provide, allowing people limited to one
area to write about an entire country. You want to hear the reaction of
a couple of Scottish players I know to what those bozos responsible for
the London sourcebook did to Scotland. Ireland... well. I'll not try to
repeat her comments. <g> Wales was dealt with, I feel, extremely
poorly. But then I live here. I'm _bound_ to complain aren't I. <g>

>> so much of [Europe and the Middle East] have been destroyed by fASA,
>> loosely termed as irradiated or toxic... Ho hum...
>
>Maybe it's because some people think you can make a dark world by
>destroying parts of it in not-nice ways? For example, the way lots of
>nuclear power plants suffered meltdowns, according to the history in the
>Black Book. Why?

Darned good question? OK, neglect, lack of "experienced technicians. I
can think of a few arguments "Why", but it strikes me as a convenient
way of righting off large areas of the world, just to save having to
think about them, and provide any information on them, something I feel
is going to hurt this game in later years. There's going to come a time
when FASA are going to regret allowing the writers of sourcebooks to do
this. After all, although they've got a heck of a lot of land left to
cover, they are going to run out eventually, and then what will happen
to Shadowrun? Another line getting dropped like Renegade Legion, or
Star Trek. (OK, that's not fair, Paramount were mainly responsible for
that.) But all the same, I'd like to see Shadowrun live a long and
fruitful life. This constant insistance in destroying huge great lumps
of continents and countries to the simple "duh, irradiated, erm, toxic"
is just wasteful for future source material or updates.

>> reinforcing some of the stupid ideas they put forth... Well. <no further
>> comment>
>
>Nonetheless, because it's in print people will take it as "the truth"
>(whatever that may be :) a lot faster, even if FanPro only has a license
>from FASA. Also, FanPro stuff, according to the text in the front of the
>Germany Sourcebook, takes precedence over FASA-published material when
>you (the players, not the characters) play in Germany.

Yeah yeah... don't say that to Sascha, he'll get all rabid on your butt
<grin>

I do understand the logic of that statement, I mean, who better to write
the material than Germans? But a better spread of German writers would
have been nice, and the arbitrary destruction of the rest of Europe was
so ludicrous as to be unbelievable. What the hell were the Euro wars
about then, who fought them and why... A shattered France only
interested in wine and crepe? A fractured Italy/Spain who's only
interest is in Bulls and women? A drowned Netherlands who's primary
interest now is in barnacles? <grumble mumble, moan, mutter>

>The way I picture Threats, is that the GM uses one of the groups to build
>a campaign around, and at some point in it the players uncover enough
>information about it so the GM hands them the book and allows them to read
>the relevant chapter. The only real way (IMO) you can do that now is by
>photocopying the pages, cut off the GM material, and give the copies to
>the players.

An expensive and time consuming process, or the alternative, is to deny
the players access to interesting information. I much preferred the
idea behind the Universal Brotherhood and Denver. Although I have a
couple of problems with the Denver sourcebook in it's treatment of
Denver, the idea behind the two books was splendid, and in many ways,
especially if FASA are now going to combine things in a manner like
Threats, then two books would be better. It might bump up the price a
couple of bucks, but I get charged more than the going rate already, so
I could care less. I don't think many other people would complain
about a coulpe of dollars for the convenience either.

>> Oh yes, it's a good idea, I just don't see it happening. In browsing
>> around the net, and maliciously stealing loads of stuff for my game,
>
>That's what the stuff is put on the WWW for in the first place, isn't it?

Yep, that's what I thought, and I have indulged copiously :)

>I haven't seen Underworld yet, but I guess I'll have it the day after
>tomorrow, when I come back from a con. From what you're saying, it looks
>like it more or less suffers from the same kind of things as the CorpSec
>Handbook -- that there's not much in it that you can't think up yourself
>if you give it some thought?

Remember, the above, is my opinion. Many people here accepted the
Underworld source book with a great deal of enthusiasm. I didn't like
it's layout, which is totally different from the other books, the lack
of decent "new" material, and the massive amounts of decker comments
that litter the book, and take up almost 50% of it's substance. A
couple of pages get devoted to each crime syndicate, a subject which
could have been covered better and in more detail. And for some obscure
reason, a number of gangs were introduced in the back of the book.
Gangs that have already been detailed in other source material. it just
looked like a desperate cobbled together deadline thing. This is the
only book, I've ever regretted buying for Shadowrun. Even my rabid
hatred of the London/Germany sourcebooks, gave me sufficient material to
rewrite and use. Underworld didn't give me anything I didn't already
have on my shelf. But you must remember, a lot of people like the book,
and quite possibly don't have access to the kinds of material I have on
my shelves. :)

>> No I'll stop there, before I get start a row in here.
>
>You're pretty good at it :)

Oh, you've noticed then Gurth? <grin>

>> This is something I do find strange, the amount of web support is
>> phenomenal for Shadowrun, and I can't believe that teh SR team haven't
>> bosed around some of them, yet their reticence in including a page of
>> liks in their Shadowland area is "odd".
>
>My thoughts exactly. And if they don't want to do it themselves, some
>script could easily be added that allows anyone dropping by to add a link,
>like on Paolo's page.

It's not that difficult to set up a web bot for that purpose. Provided
the contributors get it right, the link can be added to a page
automatically without the author needing to touch it, and it's even
possible for short comments to be added to help provide a short
description of what the site is or a precis on its content.

>> In my not so humble opinion, FASA should be proud that people are
>> prepared to devote so much time and energy - and web space - to a simple
>> game.
>
>At any rate it beats the "Hi, I'm Joe Blow and this is what I look like"
>kind of pages there are way too many of already :)

<sigh> Tell me about it.. No, in fact don't. That's part of the
hateful thing about the web, the massive amounts of high bandwidth
graphical "Hello, I'm me, and I do this, and..." cutsey "home" pages.
OK, not everybody has an interest they're as rabid about as us Shadowrun
players... but surely there's more to their life than that.

>> Unless of course there's a more sinister reason, after all it is FASA
>> "Corporation" <g> maybe they don't want to acknowledge the web
sites,
>> as it would mean they approve of the content of these sites, and
>> recognise that they are unofficial Shadowrun sites, thereby forcing them
>> to reduce the silly limitations on submissions.
>
>You're saying that as if it's a Bad Thing(tm) :)

No, it's a bad thing if they *are* the "sinister" corporation... :)

>> getting offended because FASA linked to their page, god that'd be the
>> ultimate in ludicrous. <g>
>
>I know I wouldn't...

Add your name to the multitude Gurth. :)

>> for the post office to deliver and eventually bring back that all
>> important accept/reject slip. It conjurs quite a silly picture really.
>
>You're saying that because the web is electronic, and FASA doesn't accept
>electronic submissions, they can't pull stuff off a web site and ask the
>author's permission to publish it in a book? Well yeah, if you look at it
>that way, it makes sense somehow...

That's about it. They hyave it written on their site and in their
submission guidelines. They can't contradict themselves... Now can
they? <grin>

>FASA sourcebooks combined. Then there are the loads of country/city/area
>descriptions, spells, vehicles, a handful of paranormal animals, and
>whathavewe that get put up on web sites. There has to be /something/
>worthwhile in all that...

I should imagine so. And as you said, that applies to other games as
well. So it's not as if FASA are doing anything different. That's why
I was so encouraged by Talsorian's decision to acknowledge the effort
made by their fans, and live in hope that this is something FASA will
take to heart and think seriously about.

>[submission guidelines]
>> Seconded, it put me off too, it seemed like an awful lot of hassle, when
>> elsewhere would consider material with much less trouble.
>
>I guess a problem for me here is that I'm much better in coming up with
>rules and gear than in working out story elements, and there's this thing
>I read in those submission guidelines about FASA wanting new authors to
>write an adventure first...

Ah, that... Yeah, sorry that bit had slipped my mind. I tend to
canibalise stuff from other games in this respect, so I use CP202
modules, Rifts stuff, Gurps, ICE, almost anything. I'm just too lazy
really to write an adventure myself. I suppose, if I really put my mind
to it I could, but... I don't like doing it.

>> company over the Battlemech designs, but really, do they honestly
>> believe that we're all like that?
>
>One thing I've learned from paying a little attention to corporate America
>is that they think _everybody_ is out to make money from their work. What
>else explains all the trademarks and registered trademarks?

And the massive fascination the American public has with suing people
over everything. Yes, in life that is a highly likely case. But this
is a little different. The people here are "gamers", they have produced
material for a game they enjoy a gret deal, if they didn't, they
wouldn't produce that material. They are unlikely to want to cause any
ructions with FASA provided they receive that all essential piece of
credit in the acknowledgements section, and maybe a complimentary signed
copy of the book. Mike Mulvihill's signature, in a sourcebook, would be
considered as "really cool" by many here and on the net.

>> And that's the biggy. No E-mailed submissions.
>
>What bugs me about that is that I absolutely for the life of me can't see
>the point of not accepting email proposals for sourcebooks. From my POV,
>the only thing it does is take several weeks out of the submission
>process, nothing more...

It also follows more in keeping with the "environmentallyu friendly"
attitude people are supposed to consider more these days. Wasting vast
reams of paper writing letters back and forth, with copious corrections
and alterations. Ok, it's a tad costly in bandwidth to send a document
via the net, but a reasonably simple affair to set up an FTP server to
accept uploads. It's sometimes easier to read through an electronic
post, than a poorly hand typed, or hand written one. Plus, it follows
the vision of the paperless office that so many companies are chasing
after.

>> submitting an entire sourcebook, printed and wrapped, is damned
>> expensive from England, if only because of the weight of all that paper,
>> from the continent I can't see that there's any greater advantage.
>
>Tell me about it... I'll be having to send a couple hundred pages to the
>US next week.

Good luck. Finally got something accepted by someone did you?

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Thu, 3 Apr 1997 04:16:34 +0100

Message no. 46 In article <3.0.32.19970402174321.009283d0@****.com>, Max Rible
<slothman@*********.ORG> writes
>At 00:36 4/3/97 +0100, Avenger wrote:
>>although much of these civilisations and their buildings is still buried
>>in the jungles, it has stood up amazingly well to time, and they're not
>>just caves. :)
>
>Are these freestanding buildings or things that are being dug out of the
>ground?

Freestanding, there's not a lot of information available from the
archaeological web-sites, as they are still under investigation and
digging. Mainly uncovering from centuries (sic) of jungle growth.

>And are these even the Mayans, or some older mesoamerican people?

Again, not really known at this time, the indication that they are
indeed early Mayan constructions, though the possibility of them being
ancestors is always possible. The assumption is that they are very
early Mayan, because of the similarities to other sites.

>I thought the Mayans were a strictly first millennium CE bunch.

The works in the northern part of southern mexico is, and the better
uncovered cities, like Palenque, Chitchen Itza, Tikal etc are more
recent, dating around about the time of Christ, some are older up to
2000 years old, but in the main, they're "recent". Indications from
carbon dating and other "archaeology techie" stuff, is that there are
portions of existing cities, and newer sites that are much older,
lending some credence to the "advanced" civilisation they appear to be,
rather than the backwards barbarians the Spanish writings made them out
ot be, and was believed for many years.

>The
>Olmecs go back to the early second millennium BCE, but I didn't think
>they had anything left standing. The Pueblo Indians had some interesting
>cliff dwellings, but those are closer to the Aztec era, not very long
>before Columbus showed up.

Not the cliff dwelling, but other constructions in the plains who's
purpose is not known, there is indication that there may have been some
sort of settlement around some of these things, but not confirmed.
Also, the true age of the Native American isn't really known, they may
have been around a lot longer than is initially thought, They weren't
gerat builders like the Greeks and Egyptians, Mayans and Incas, so it's
not possible to accurately track them.

>>There was also a recent discovery of a village somewhere or other, that
>>is almost perfectly preserved, showing thatched roofed constructions of
>>a few thousands years age.
>
>Buried structures aren't habitable as is, have a tendency to crumble
>when you pull the dirt out of them, and are unlikely to be useful places
>for territory-seeking metahumans to settle. (Extremely inspiring to
>peoples who would appreciate having a history to be proud of, yes.
>A place to settle, no...)

Agreed, but, that's not really the point. The Mayan cities, if they
weren't valuable as historic sites would be habitable, "wanted" to live
like that. The same goes for The Aztec constructions, habitable if
people chose to live in that fashion. If the dwarven nations was as
good in ED as it was in LOTR, then their constructions will also survive
time.

>Babylon, Sumer, Uruk...

To name a few. :)

>>constructions from the Native American tribes that stretch back a long
>>ways, so, buildings and constructions surviving isn't so strange.
>
>Are any of these constructions remotely habitable by human beings?

I have no idea. The digs are fairly extensive, the quality of the
finds, I don't know, little is available at this time, and I have to
rely on the snippets provided in the Sunday Times. However, they can
be visited, and are a sort of tourist attraction.

>>they are put together well enough, and the Dwarves _are_ master
>>craftsmen, then ther is no reason they couldn't survive.
>
>Two words: "tectonic activity".

Which though it has formed much of our present world, did so millenia
ago. And hasn't really had a major influence on constructions. It's
not as though America, Europe etc formed over the last 20,000 years.
They've taken much longer than that. Yes there are faults, like San
Andreas, where people are waiting for the big one that shunts half of
California down to meet Atlantis, but it's been dying to happen for a
hell of a long time. Plate Tectonics are not dynamic enough to use as
an argument to explain the lack of survivable constructions from ED.
Thera I believe is used as an ancient "Atlantis" and was destroyed
utterly (or not, depending on how you want it to be) Thera, however,
was not the be all and end all of ED civilisations and cities. The
ancients built things in ways we can't replicate, which is why their
structures are still standing, and ours fall down at regular intervals.

Another, (I think) unconfirmed thing is the assumed age of the Chinese
civilisation. They claim it to be many thousands of years old. They
were using disciplines, mathematics, astronomy, writing and buildings
well before the rest of the "civilised" worlds. OK, we know very little
about Chinese history, except what was discovered by missionaries and
explorers before the borders closed. And little about any
archaeological sites that may exist there to confirm this claim. But
looking back at how they were when the round eye barbarians arrived,
it's believable that they were advanced in their culture. They already
had impressively beautiful buildings, some still standing today, used
gunpowder for entertainment, thanks to the round-eyes, death was shortly
to follow that little gem. One day, maybe we'll know more. Maybe even
one day _we_ will find a kaer, and realise that FASA are in fact
documenting a fact and a future, rather than a Science Fantasy game
<grin>

I can't remember off hand how old ED is supposed to be, 10,000 years
isn't it? Re-reading Ehran's speech to the YET, brings home a few
ideas...

>One decently-preserved kaer with evidence of lots of non-Elves getting
>along together could do a great deal for the self esteem of metahumans.
>It doesn't need to be habitable-- just documentable!

LOL... And on that note. Goodnight. :)

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/

From:	GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Wed, 2 Apr 1997 23:11:15 -0700

Message no. 47 > From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
> >Yeah, but how many of them are caves - not many caves last 7,000 years
> >without maintenance - and how many aren't still in use?

>....... That
> Mayan contructions, (and this comes from "official" archaeological
> material) *may* be greater than 10,000 years old. Some are acknowledged
> to be between 5 and 7,000. ......
>
And looking back to the Middle East..The Sphinx..It is a min of 5000
years old...I do not recall the approximations that they have now
placed on this structure..Of course it has not always had the head it
now has..It used to have the head of a Lion....I will have to find
the tape I have about this and watch it again....
--------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer

From:	TEGTMEBC@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Thu, 3 Apr 1997 01:15:51 -0500

Message no. 48 > In article <3.0.32.19970402174321.009283d0@****.com>, Max Rible
> <slothman@*********.ORG> writes
> >At 00:36 4/3/97 +0100, Avenger wrote:

> >I thought the Mayans were a strictly first millennium CE bunch.

> The works in the northern part of southern mexico is, and the better
> uncovered cities, like Palenque, Chitchen Itza, Tikal etc are more
> recent, dating around about the time of Christ, some are older up to
> 2000 years old, but in the main, they're "recent".

Isn't that the same time period? By the way, you forgot even better sites like
Copan and Teotihuacan, they have produced some of the best information we have
about the rulers of these cities thanks to the stellas they left to celebrate
the conquests. We wouldn't know half of what we know about rulers like Curl
Nose or Spearthrower Awl (yes these are the real names), some of the most
important people in early Mesoamerica. They controlled the major economic and
military centers like Tikal. But more to the point about how they are holding
up, these sites were protected by the forests. They weren't effected by the
pollution and vandalism that other sites have fallen prey to. Likewise, there
was no new construction near by these areas, which others have to deal with.
That's why they are in such good condition.

Indications from
> carbon dating and other "archaeology techie" stuff, is that there are
> portions of existing cities, and newer sites that are much older,
> lending some credence to the "advanced" civilisation they appear to be,
> rather than the backwards barbarians the Spanish writings made them out
> ot be, and was believed for many years.

Yes, there are sites from before 300AD, but these are from the
Pre-Classic period. Everything from 300-840AD is the Classic Mayan Period,
which is where the typical Mayan culture is seen. The Pre-Classic goes from as
early as 2000BC all the way to 300AD, but that is broken into three periods as
it deals with cultures other than just that of the Maya. The Olmec are one of
the other cultures dealt with, in fact.

> >The
> >Olmecs go back to the early second millennium BCE, but I didn't think
> >they had anything left standing.

Yes, there are remnants of Olmec construction, otherwise we wouldn't
know that they created teh first ceremonial structures in North America. Some
of these are, for those of you who care, Tres Zapotes and La Venta. La Venta
was even inhabited up to 800BC. So it makes sense that Olmec sites are still
standing since it is only 1100 yrs older than other Mayan sites.

The Pueblo Indians had some interesting
> >cliff dwellings, but those are closer to the Aztec era, not very long
> >before Columbus showed up.

> Not the cliff dwelling, but other constructions in the plains who's
> purpose is not known, there is indication that there may have been some
> sort of settlement around some of these things, but not confirmed.
> Also, the true age of the Native American isn't really known, they may
> have been around a lot longer than is initially thought, They weren't
> gerat builders like the Greeks and Egyptians, Mayans and Incas, so it's
> not possible to accurately track them.

Have to contradict you here. We do know when the first Amerinds crossed
through Berigia.(The Bering Strait) They showed up following the herds of
animals that came to America during the last Ice Age. In fact, there were three
influxes of Indians as they followed different herds during three of the
interstadials in said Ice Age. And they did leave evidence, not nearly as grand
as that left by the cultures you pointed out, but evidence none the less.
Things like Clovis Points and bone sherds found in the same strata have given
us the time period of 10,000 BC. Some still contend that the Amerinds came
across during teh previous Ice Age of 40,000BC, but there is no evidence to
support such a claim. Even the 10,000BC date leaves holes in the timeline,
since the clovis point isn't dated until 7,200BC, but 10,000 BC is the commonly
excepted time period.

> >>There was also a recent discovery of a village somewhere or other, that
> >>is almost perfectly preserved, showing thatched roofed constructions of
> >>a few thousands years age.

I have to know, how are they able to prove the existence of the
thatched roof? The thatching would rot away too quickly for it to even leave a
soil stain to suggest its existance.
> >
> >Buried structures aren't habitable as is, have a tendency to crumble
> >when you pull the dirt out of them, and are unlikely to be useful places
> >for territory-seeking metahumans to settle. (Extremely inspiring to
> >peoples who would appreciate having a history to be proud of, yes.
> >A place to settle, no...)

> Agreed, but, that's not really the point. The Mayan cities, if they
> weren't valuable as historic sites would be habitable, "wanted" to live
> like that. The same goes for The Aztec constructions, habitable if
> people chose to live in that fashion. If the dwarven nations was as
> good in ED as it was in LOTR, then their constructions will also survive
> time.

The problem with these sites surviving is not just if they are built
above ground like the Mayans. Yes, sites that are buried do fall apart when
unearthed, but most sites aren't built to be underground, they have been buried
by the passage of time. Not only that, but they were deteriorating at teh same
time that they were being buried, which is why they fall apart when teh dirt is
removed, the dirt was partially holding the structure together. The biggest
problem with site preservation is that humans tend to stay in the same area
when it has the resources they need, consequently, they build the new
structures on top of the existing structures. Just look at the old cities of
Europe and Asia, the oldest buildings don't even exist anymore. They have all
been built over with the newer construction, and that is only over the past
2000 yrs or so. Just imagine what would happen over 10,000 yrs. That is why
there is no evidence of these metahuman cities. They have all been covered up
by the human cities after the humans moved into those areas with the demise of
the various metahumans.

> >>constructions from the Native American tribes that stretch back a long
> >>ways, so, buildings and constructions surviving isn't so strange.
> >
> >Are any of these constructions remotely habitable by human beings?

> I have no idea. The digs are fairly extensive, the quality of the
> finds, I don't know, little is available at this time, and I have to
> rely on the snippets provided in the Sunday Times. However, they can
> be visited, and are a sort of tourist attraction.

No, most prehistoric sites in NA are not habitable. With the exception
of the Pueblo and various southwestern tribes, the Amerinds didn't create
lasting structures. We only know about them from digs finding post-hole stains,
fragments of churt/flint, and possibly pottery sherds.

> Another, (I think) unconfirmed thing is the assumed age of the Chinese
> civilisation. They claim it to be many thousands of years old. They
> were using disciplines, mathematics, astronomy, writing and buildings
> well before the rest of the "civilised" worlds. OK, we know very little
> about Chinese history, except what was discovered by missionaries and
> explorers before the borders closed. And little about any
> archaeological sites that may exist there to confirm this claim.

Wrong. The Chinese have many sites to suggest the history of their
culture. I'm not that familiar with the names, but I am familiar with the
materials found at said sites. I have seen bronze vessels from the Shang
dynasty (1766BC). These things alone imply a culture almost 3800 yrs old.

> >One decently-preserved kaer with evidence of lots of non-Elves getting
> >along together could do a great deal for the self esteem of metahumans.
> >It doesn't need to be habitable-- just documentable!

Unfortunately, as I explained earlier, they won't likely be found. They
have probably been built over by the humans after they moved into the cities.

-The Immortal Mental

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:11:16 +0100

Message no. 49 Avenger said on 0:09/ 3 Apr 97...

> Yes it is. Both English and Japanese. Now there's dedication for you
> :)

It's only logical to do it in two languages, IMHO... Not many people
outside Japan can read Japanese (I know I can't... I wish Tamiya would use
more English on their boxes :) but they still might want to know what
Japan looks like in the 2050s.

Anyway, I'll have to look for the URL somewhere. There's a link on Paolo's
page, right?

> >That would call for major changes between now and 2050. *grin*
>
> Damn right it would. If there's one thing Britain ain't, it's "normal"
> <snigger> Nevertheless. Although FASA do have the decency to ask
> people of the host nation to write sourcebooks, I don't feel that they
> are totally fair about it. They don't seem to take a broad spread of
> people from different areas to provide, allowing people limited to one
> area to write about an entire country.

It looks like that's changing a bit. Where NAN vol. 1 has only one person
listed as a writer (Nigel Findley), California Free State has four, plus
six and a "special thanks to" under "Additional Writing."

> You want to hear the reaction of a couple of Scottish players I know to
> what those bozos responsible for the London sourcebook did to Scotland.
> Ireland... well. I'll not try to repeat her comments. <g> Wales was
> dealt with, I feel, extremely poorly. But then I live here. I'm
> _bound_ to complain aren't I. <g>

I talked about the London Sourcebook (why isn't it called "UK Sourcebook"
or something anyway?) with an Englishman a few years ago. I don't
remember all that much of it, but in short, he thought it could have been
done a lot better. He was from Newcastle, and IIRC didn't agree with the
treatment the city got at all. It didn't stop him from running an
adventure for us based in Newcastle, but because I still don't own the
London Sourcebook I have no idea how close his version was to the one in
the book.

> Darned good question? OK, neglect, lack of "experienced technicians. I
> can think of a few arguments

That's the Trekkie habit of finding explanations for everything, no matter
how unbelievable it may sound :)

> There's going to come a time when FASA are going to regret allowing the
> writers of sourcebooks to do this. After all, although they've got a
> heck of a lot of land left to cover, they are going to run out
> eventually, and then what will happen to Shadowrun? Another line
> getting dropped like Renegade Legion, or Star Trek. (OK, that's not
> fair, Paramount were mainly responsible for that.)

They tried to pull the license on the ST:TNG CCG, didn't they? Then it
turned out the CCG based on the original ST didn't sell all that well,
and they decided it was better to stick with one that did sell. However,
since Shadowrun isn't licensed from anyone it should be safe from that I
think. Barring weird lawsuits, that is :)

> But all the same, I'd like to see Shadowrun live a long and fruitful
> life. This constant insistance in destroying huge great lumps of
> continents and countries to the simple "duh, irradiated, erm, toxic" is
> just wasteful for future source material or updates.

It could be solved by having some governments spend billions of nuyen
cleaning up the world, though I find that idea not all that likely,
because if they can do it, why haven't they yet? Money problems could be
an explanation, but I don't think there are many western countries that
like to have a huge toxic wasteland where one of their major cities used
to be.

> Yeah yeah... don't say that to Sascha, he'll get all rabid on your butt
> <grin>

I know I'd better be careful, but it is a fact...

> What the hell were the Euro wars about then, who fought them and why...

The Russians started them to secure vital resources, it says on page 28 of
SRII. That I can believe, but the way it ends is, well, utter bullshit. It
feels like the writers wanted a kind of Twilight: 2000 history without
going all the way (i.e. nuclear war), and felt that a fighter-bomber
strike would be an effective way to end a war. If it were, then all modern
conflicts would end by wiping out the general staff the day after the war
starts IMO.

OTOH, if there had been a nuclear war then we'd have a good reason for
the destroyed areas of the globe...

> >the relevant chapter. The only real way (IMO) you can do that now is by
> >photocopying the pages, cut off the GM material, and give the copies to
> >the players.
>
> An expensive and time consuming process, or the alternative, is to deny
> the players access to interesting information. I much preferred the
> idea behind the Universal Brotherhood and Denver.

It's okay for a couple of pages, like a single chapter, for example KSAF
takes up four pages, which is cheap enough to photocopy. My real gripe
with Threats is that nobody will ever use all of the book. Building a
believable campaign around just a single organization will take up months
or even a year of playing time.

> Although I have a couple of problems with the Denver sourcebook in it's
> treatment of Denver, the idea behind the two books was splendid, and in
> many ways, especially if FASA are now going to combine things in a
> manner like Threats, then two books would be better. It might bump up
> the price a couple of bucks, but I get charged more than the going rate
> already, so I could care less. I don't think many other people would
> complain about a coulpe of dollars for the convenience either.

I remember FASALou comment on the ED list somewhere last year (I
unsubbed last August) that boxed sets are a lot more expensive to produce,
and so make less of a profit than straight sourcebooks. Alledgedly, that
was also the reason that the Throal book is, well, a book instead of a box
with two books in it. Although another way I think it could be done would
be to have two books and put a plastic wrapper around them, like for
example the Hot Spots set for BattleTech/MechWarrior. It would at least
save the price of the box.

[Underworld]
> This is the only book, I've ever regretted buying for Shadowrun. Even
> my rabid hatred of the London/Germany sourcebooks, gave me sufficient
> material to rewrite and use. Underworld didn't give me anything I
> didn't already have on my shelf. But you must remember, a lot of people
> like the book, and quite possibly don't have access to the kinds of
> material I have on my shelves. :)

I'll get the book anyway, and see if I'll ever use it. Most of the stuff
from newer sourcebooks I don't use at all, the few times a year it seems I
actually get to GM/play anything these days.

> >My thoughts exactly. And if they don't want to do it themselves, some
> >script could easily be added that allows anyone dropping by to add a link,
> >like on Paolo's page.
>
> It's not that difficult to set up a web bot for that purpose. Provided
> the contributors get it right, the link can be added to a page
> automatically without the author needing to touch it, and it's even
> possible for short comments to be added to help provide a short
> description of what the site is or a precis on its content.

It should all be relatively easy for anyone who knows what they're doing,
I think.

> >At any rate it beats the "Hi, I'm Joe Blow and this is what I look
like"
> >kind of pages there are way too many of already :)
>
> <sigh> Tell me about it.. No, in fact don't. That's part of the
> hateful thing about the web, the massive amounts of high bandwidth
> graphical "Hello, I'm me, and I do this, and..." cutsey "home"
pages.
> OK, not everybody has an interest they're as rabid about as us Shadowrun
> players... but surely there's more to their life than that.

Can you believe some providers actually encourage you to do this sort of
thing? If you think your Dutch -> English translator program is up to it,
take a look at http://people.zeelandnet.nl/ and go for the "spelregels"
link.

> >You're saying that as if it's a Bad Thing(tm) :)
>
> No, it's a bad thing if they *are* the "sinister" corporation... :)

All corporations are sinister, it's part of the definition :)

> That's about it. They hyave it written on their site and in their
> submission guidelines. They can't contradict themselves... Now can
> they? <grin>

Not outside rule- and sourcebooks :)

> >whathavewe that get put up on web sites. There has to be /something/
> >worthwhile in all that...
>
> I should imagine so. And as you said, that applies to other games as
> well. So it's not as if FASA are doing anything different. That's why
> I was so encouraged by Talsorian's decision to acknowledge the effort
> made by their fans, and live in hope that this is something FASA will
> take to heart and think seriously about.

Something I thought about later was that just about all game companies
seem to have web sites and email accounts now (just look at the reviews
section of any Arcane) but it looks like they use them as most companies
do: only to sell their products. Sure, they give some customer support
through email (i.e. ask a question and you may get an answer) but most
game company web sites I've looked at only advertise their own products.

> >[submission guidelines]
> >I guess a problem for me here is that I'm much better in coming up with
> >rules and gear than in working out story elements, and there's this thing
> >I read in those submission guidelines about FASA wanting new authors to
> >write an adventure first...
>
> Ah, that... Yeah, sorry that bit had slipped my mind. I tend to
> canibalise stuff from other games in this respect, so I use CP202
> modules, Rifts stuff, Gurps, ICE, almost anything. I'm just too lazy
> really to write an adventure myself. I suppose, if I really put my mind
> to it I could, but... I don't like doing it.

Me too, I get bogged down really fast. Most self-designed adventures I've
run in recent years started with two or three ideas that I wrote down, and
then winged it from there, basing much on off-hand comments from the
players.

> And the massive fascination the American public has with suing people
> over everything. Yes, in life that is a highly likely case.

I don't like the way compensation lawsuits are on the rise in Europe...
But that's not related to SR :)

> But this is a little different. The people here are "gamers", they have
> produced material for a game they enjoy a gret deal, if they didn't,
> they wouldn't produce that material.

As we've seen it's morelikely to be the other way around -- look at what
T$R did a few years ago. I'm a bit surprised the reaction to it (by people
not playing their games anymore) wasn't more extensive... If FASA were to
tell me they'd sue me for creating unlicensed-but-original SR material, I
would probably tell them where they could stick their game... IMHO it's a
good thing FASA is much more relaxed about this sort of thing than T$R.

> Mike Mulvihill's signature, in a sourcebook, would be considered as
> "really cool" by many here and on the net.

I could have had my SRII book signed by Tom Dowd, but I only thought of it
after the con where I bought the book was over :(

[electronic submissions]
> It also follows more in keeping with the "environmentallyu friendly"
> attitude people are supposed to consider more these days. Wasting vast
> reams of paper writing letters back and forth, with copious corrections
> and alterations.

Have to agree there.

> Ok, it's a tad costly in bandwidth to send a document via the net, but a
> reasonably simple affair to set up an FTP server to accept uploads.

I think email is also cheaper, money-wise, than printing hundreds of pages
and sticking lots of stamps onto the package. As for the bandwidth,
hardly anybody complains about the massive bandwidth taken up by all those
graphic WWW pages...

> It's sometimes easier to read through an electronic post, than a poorly
> hand typed, or hand written one.

From what I've seen, nobody accepts hand-written stuff, and in the end
want you to submit an electronic copy anyway.

> Plus, it follows the vision of the paperless office that so many
> companies are chasing after.

Hah! In the 1980s, computers were claimed to reduce the amount of paper
used in offices. It only gone up since then...

> >Tell me about it... I'll be having to send a couple hundred pages to the
> >US next week.
>
> Good luck. Finally got something accepted by someone did you?

Well, not really "finally." It was more like the first idea I ever sent to
a game company...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Never a victim," the role-model said.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: World Map
Date:	Thu, 3 Apr 1997 13:11:16 +0100

Message no. 50 Avenger said on 0:17/ 3 Apr 97...

> And let's face it the Chrome Books and updates that are provided by
> Talsorian don't put them out any more than producing a "proper"
> sourcebook. The fans like them and buy them, as would Shadowrun
> players, and it has the added effect of keeping moaning minnies like me
> happy. <g>

Going by the responses I've received about the Plastic Warriors stuff, the
only complaints about them have been about the sizes of the files and the
paper it takes to print them. Everybody seems to like the contents a lot.
FASA doesn't do many gear books, still I get the impression that SR
players want almost as many gadgets as CP2020 players.

> Somebody else (sorry, flew past the post) suggested that somebody ask
> for submissions and compiles the stuff into a book, with added comments
> and acknowledging the providers, something along the lines of what you
> are doing at the moment with the NAGTTW on NERPS. Ok, that's a good
> idea, but it has one tragic fault. It would not be accepted as canon
> with the list, and other people, and therefore would not be used as a
> reflection of the world.

Yep, that's one of the most important problems with the NERPS stuff.
However, in absense of FASA material covering the same regions, I think
it'll be accepted, if it ever gets finished... Until there's a FASA
sourcebook about the same area, of course.

> It also runs the risk of being massively contradicted by FASA at a later
> date

That's the second major problem, especially if the NERPS articles somehow
relate to each other, then if a FASA book would contradict one of the
articles parts of the others would also become useless.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Never a victim," the role-model said.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 51 >God I wish; I'd like to see FASA do a tour of the net, In particular the
>Webring and make their own collection of stuff they consider suitable....
>Their homepage needs some serious dynamic updating; It's been static for
>months.

I'd be happy for a while if somone would address the large number of "FASA
won't/hasn't say/said questions I have on my page. INCLUDING the ominous
Grounding questions.

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 52 At 04:16 4/3/97 +0100, Avenger wrote:
>The works in the northern part of southern mexico is, and the better
>uncovered cities, like Palenque, Chitchen Itza, Tikal etc are more
>recent, dating around about the time of Christ, some are older up to
>2000 years old, but in the main, they're "recent".

The time of Christ was about 2000 years ago, actually...

> Indications from
>carbon dating and other "archaeology techie" stuff, is that there are
>portions of existing cities, and newer sites that are much older,
>lending some credence to the "advanced" civilisation they appear to be,
>rather than the backwards barbarians the Spanish writings made them out
>ot be, and was believed for many years.

But certainly not someplace that you could move into and set up shop.

>>Buried structures aren't habitable as is, have a tendency to crumble
>>when you pull the dirt out of them, and are unlikely to be useful places
>>for territory-seeking metahumans to settle. (Extremely inspiring to
>>peoples who would appreciate having a history to be proud of, yes.
>>A place to settle, no...)

>Agreed, but, that's not really the point. The Mayan cities, if they
>weren't valuable as historic sites would be habitable, "wanted" to live
>like that.

Would they be habitable? Would they survive if people moved in, started
trying to wire them for electricity and cable, add plumbing, and all the
other things that people would want when they live in the modern era?

> The same goes for The Aztec constructions, habitable if
>people chose to live in that fashion. If the dwarven nations was as
>good in ED as it was in LOTR, then their constructions will also survive
>time.

Why are we comparing Earthdawn to the Lord of the Rings?

>>Are any of these constructions remotely habitable by human beings?

>I have no idea. The digs are fairly extensive, the quality of the
>finds, I don't know, little is available at this time, and I have to
>rely on the snippets provided in the Sunday Times. However, they can
>be visited, and are a sort of tourist attraction.

If the things are in digs, they're probably not habitable. Archaeologists
are probably shoring up the roofs as they excavate.

>>Two words: "tectonic activity".

>Which though it has formed much of our present world, did so millenia
>ago. And hasn't really had a major influence on constructions.

I take it you don't live in California. Tectonic activity is still a
major influence on the world. 1989 had a nifty little 7.1 quake that
closed the Bay Bridge for a while, and the 1906 quake devastated
San Francisco. Other places have fewer faults, but there are still
some interesting, seldom-active ones in places you wouldn't expect.
(New York, if memory serves, is one of them.)

> Plate Tectonics are not dynamic enough to use as
>an argument to explain the lack of survivable constructions from ED.

Sure they are. You don't need continental drift to go very far to get
earthquakes that can seriously wreck an area.

> The
>ancients built things in ways we can't replicate, which is why their
>structures are still standing, and ours fall down at regular intervals.

I don't think there's a single ancient structure that we couldn't replicate
in the modern era with enough of a budget, actually. If we built pyramids
that were mostly stone with a few tiny passageways and chambers in them,
they'd ride out earthquakes very well. Unfortunately, we build these big
hollow buildings that we try to live in, and they're just not as well
supported as structures that are almost completely solid.

>Another, (I think) unconfirmed thing is the assumed age of the Chinese
>civilisation. They claim it to be many thousands of years old. They
>were using disciplines, mathematics, astronomy, writing and buildings
>well before the rest of the "civilised" worlds. OK, we know very little
>about Chinese history, except what was discovered by missionaries and
>explorers before the borders closed.

We know a fair amount, AFAIK. They started out about the same time
the other cradles of civilization did: in river valleys. (Mesopotamia,
the Nile, the Indus, and for China I think it's the Yellow River.)

>I can't remember off hand how old ED is supposed to be, 10,000 years
>isn't it? Re-reading Ehran's speech to the YET, brings home a few
>ideas...

A bit under 10,000 years, I think; the magic cycle is 7200, assuming
it corresponds to the Mayan katun.

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%

Message no. 53 In article <199704031109.NAA27403@**********.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> writes
>Avenger said on 0:17/ 3 Apr 97...
>> sourcebook. The fans like them and buy them, as would Shadowrun
>> players, and it has the added effect of keeping moaning minnies like me
>> happy. <g>
>
>Going by the responses I've received about the Plastic Warriors stuff, the
>only complaints about them have been about the sizes of the files

FAir enough, with the addition of graphics, it's not always easy to keep
the file down in size, however, I don't feel that a the size of your net
books is prohibitive, only one (IIRC) is above 1mb the rest are a few
hundred K. a pain on a slow connection but...

>and the
>paper it takes to print them.

Print them??? I gave up on that idea a while back when I realised I
had three lever arch files of equipment... I've since re-edited them for
use via the computers I have. Once I've finished and got the whole lot
written to cd, the players will be able to access them like an
electronic book with all the equipment and stuff linked through.. Saves
money, saves paper, saves trouble. :)

>Everybody seems to like the contents a lot.
>FASA doesn't do many gear books, still I get the impression that SR
>players want almost as many gadgets as CP2020 players.

Of course. The average SR player is going to want to have as many
gadgets, toys, wizzy bits and weapons he/she can get their grubby little
hands on, all for the single purpose of making their "game" life easier.
I, and I think my players, prefer a game based more on intrigue and
deception than gadgets, but when they find something they like, it gets
adopted and used where possible. There isn't enough in the way of
"functional" toys in SR, so the PW books, CP2020/Rifts?etc books have
added toys for them to use if they need it. The more toys and gadgets,
the larger the GM's headache keeping up with it all, but players love
'em.
>That's the second major problem, especially if the NERPS articles somehow
>relate to each other, then if a FASA book would contradict one of the
>articles parts of the others would also become useless.

That's always a problem with fan produced material. FASA don't want to
commit themselves to saying what they're going to be producing for the
next 2/whatever years, in case of unforseen problems, which means we
have no idea what's planned. That being the case, almost anything that
a player/GM produces stands the liklihood of being trashed by a FASA
product release. That's the risk we take when anything is written. BUt
it's not stopped the idea people out there, and I can't see it stopping
anytime soon.

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/

Message no. 54 In article <199704031109.NAA27397@**********.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> writes

>It's only logical to do it in two languages,

Careful Gurth, you might start something here <g> I'm not that fluent
in other languages to cope with it, I'm okay with German, and maybe a
small smattering of Japanese, but whole lumps, phew <grimace>

It is a reasonable idea though, but a teeny bit impractical for many.

>IMHO... Not many people
>outside Japan can read Japanese (I know I can't... I wish Tamiya would use
>more English on their boxes :)

Agreed. Darn but I hate those characters. finding matches and making
sense out of them takles way too long. <grin> (Not that I try too hard)

>Anyway, I'll have to look for the URL somewhere. There's a link on Paolo's
>page, right?

Yep, however, just for simplicities sake, I dug out the link for you. It
takes you to the initial Sourcebook site, and other links to other pages
from there. :)

http://www.aiai.ed.ac.uk/~timd/japanlinks.html

Hope that helps some.

>It looks like that's changing a bit. Where NAN vol. 1 has only one person
>listed as a writer (Nigel Findley), California Free State has four, plus
>six and a "special thanks to" under "Additional Writing."

That is an encouraging sign and hopefully will be the form of future
releases, even though some things still get screwed a tad. As far as
the CFS book goes, I'm split 50/50 on that, some I like, some I don't,
but then that's nothing new. <g>

>I talked about the London Sourcebook (why isn't it called "UK Sourcebook"
>or something anyway?)

Probably for the same reason the Germany sourcebook isn't called the
"Europe Sourcebook". Essentially it isn't.

>remember all that much of it, but in short, he thought it could have been
>done a lot better. He was from Newcastle, and IIRC didn't agree with the
>treatment the city got at all.

Treatment of cities os always going to be questionable, people have
ideas how the city is going to be, and there's no possible way FASA
could manage to predict all the variations. If the book had stuck to
just being a _London_ sourcebook, after all it is the capital and
there's more than enough material there to fill one book. Leaving the
rest of the UK to a seperate book, it *might* have been better. I've
often voiced my opinions on the mistakes in the book, so I'll not bore
everyone by repeating them here, yet again. The same for Europe I feel.
The Germany sourcebook should have stuck to Germany. If we can have
books on Aztlan (Mexico) Seattle, Denver, and individual themes,
Corporate 'files, Cybertech, etc, then the books could have been limited
to the country/city they concerned. That they were allowed to wandcer
out, and cause so much damage, is not only (IMNSHO) silly and wasteful,
but guaranteed to anger people living in those areas.

>That's the Trekkie habit of finding explanations for everything, no matter
>how unbelievable it may sound :)

Are you accusing me of being a Trekkie?
<growl, snarl, slavver>

>They tried to pull the license on the ST:TNG CCG, didn't they?

I have no idea.

>an explanation, but I don't think there are many western countries that
>like to have a huge toxic wasteland where one of their major cities used
>to be.

As you said, if they could do it, why aren't they doing it? Again,this
is where the initial series of sourcebooks have dug a very deep hole for
FASA, and somehow they are going to have to claw their way out of that
pit before the world will be sorted to fit the game, and not some warped
view of a cursed earth.

>strike would be an effective way to end a war. If it were, then all modern
>conflicts would end by wiping out the general staff the day after the war
>starts IMO.

Precisely, also, the way they destroyed Europe, I'm frankly stunned that
there was sufficient forces to stop a Russian army, and of course
there's the Russian fracturing that is occuring now, after the 2012
incident, VITAS and UGE, what are the chances of the USSR being able to
stage an invasion of Europe. It was dealt with in the wrong way, and
the way the areas are described almost directly contradicts the whole
concept. A great shame, as with a little thought and care, the mistakes
could have been so easily avoided.

>OTOH, if there had been a nuclear war then we'd have a good reason for
>the destroyed areas of the globe...

But there wasn't, and apparently won't be.

>be to have two books and put a plastic wrapper around them, like for
>example the Hot Spots set for BattleTech/MechWarrior. It would at least
>save the price of the box.

Talsorian shrink wrap their books, TSR shrink wrap, Palladium shrink
wrap, FASA don't. I know it adds a little bit to the cost of producing
the book, and they've been prety dilligent at keeping hte price of their
books down to very competitive prices, but if two books were to come, a
GM book and Players book, shrink wrap is a perfectly acceptable way of
doing it. IIRC the only box set from Talsorian was the Home Of the
Brave, adventure, I suspect they found the same thing as FASA, it looks
good, it's a nice product, but doesn't sell too well, books take up less
space than boxes. OK, shrink wrap is environmentally unfriendly, yeah
so, I don't see too much in the way of that anyway.

>I'll get the book anyway, and see if I'll ever use it. Most of the stuff
>from newer sourcebooks I don't use at all, the few times a year it seems I
>actually get to GM/play anything these days.

To be honest, I'm not sure how much of the newer books I'd use either.
I've not really used much of anything for the game since VR2, maybe
later, when my players catch up with the timeline (even though they're 5
years ahead of it)

>Can you believe some providers actually encourage you to do this sort of
>thing?

Yes I can. Demon, my ISP, encourage it as well. <ho-hum>

>take a look at http://people.zeelandnet.nl/ and go for the "spelregels"
>link.

OK, I'll poke around, why not <g> Am I going to enjoy this? <s>

>All corporations are sinister, it's part of the definition :)

I think I've got into enough trouble without qualifying this remark with
the kind of answer I have to hand. Some people don't like my thoughts
<grin>

>game company web sites I've looked at only advertise their own products.

Isn't that the main idea of it though? With the massively increasing
presence of people on the net, more secure methods of financial
transaction, and more potential customers browsing around, it's only
logical to present the product first. Many fans will produce their own
stuff, like most of the people here, so why worry about doing something
for the game? It's a nice step that FASA have introduced a Shadowtalk
area on their site, but it's so stagnant as to be almost useless. Not
at all what I expected from that area. However, that no doubt will
change once Mike gets a firm grip of the helm. (I hope).

>> really to write an adventure myself. I suppose, if I really put my mind
>> to it I could, but... I don't like doing it.
>
>Me too, I get bogged down really fast. Most self-designed adventures I've
>run in recent years started with two or three ideas that I wrote down, and
>then winged it from there, basing much on off-hand comments from the
>players.

Off the cuff, although more anarchic, is a lot more fun. I can think of
nothing worse than getting bogged down reading vast chunks of "Tell it
to them straight" spoiling the continuity. Also, as my players have
said on several occassions after the game is over and they look through
the module "We wouldn't do that!"

A point in case was in one book, where the "TITTS" (is that a Freudian
slip on the part of FASA?) had the players walk through the main doors
of a company and try to gain access to an elevator, in full view of
security measures and personnel. My players went pure white just
thinking about it. <g> Things get changed a bit. But to sit down, and
plan out a module in "FASA format" is not something I enjoy overly. A
freeform adventure, with the characters governing the paths they follow,
is more fun for me, and them.

>I don't like the way compensation lawsuits are on the rise in Europe...
>But that's not related to SR :)

No it isn't, except in a very gerenalised way. It is saddening though.

>As we've seen it's morelikely to be the other way around -- look at what
>T$R did a few years ago.

Oh yeah, wasn't _that_ a joke, and to screw themselves over in the same
suit... <snigger, smirk>

>would probably tell them where they could stick their game... IMHO it's a
>good thing FASA is much more relaxed about this sort of thing than T$R.

TSR have lightened up a tad. They've got their own sight now, official,
as well as unofficial, and they're easing up on the fans a bit too. It
seems that initially they were panicking over the size of the net, and
believed that everybody would be trading in TSR material, thereby
cutting their profits and making the game into a "free priacy" thing.
They obviously believed *all* the bad press about the net. - At least
that's the company line anyway. I'm inclined to think there was a
certain amount of militancy mixed up in there as well.

>I think email is also cheaper, money-wise, than printing hundreds of pages
>and sticking lots of stamps onto the package.

Ultimately yes it is. Even in areas where one pays for the time on
line, or/and phone call, it's going to work out cheaper in the end. I
don't know how many companies do accept electronic submissions, but with
the rise of personal computers, powerful software for writing, and the
increase in electronic communication, those who stick to the old regimes
will quickly fall behind the more "advanced" companies.

>As for the bandwidth,
>hardly anybody complains about the massive bandwidth taken up by all those
>graphic WWW pages...

Really? You listen to different areas than I do Gurth. <g> The latest
complaints that I've heard are about massive pictures on pages, huge
Java scripts that don't run, producing all manner of errors, scripts and
other things that make browsers choke... But I get your mening :)

>Hah! In the 1980s, computers were claimed to reduce the amount of paper
>used in offices. It only gone up since then...

It most certainly has, with the amount of waste generated by printers,
people still insist on printing everything out onto paper, when they
have the document on the machine in front of them. After paying a
vicrosoft UK, I was frankly stunned silly by the complete lack of piles
of paper in their offices. Paper is taken in by the postal department,
scanned and sent to the individuals over mail, efficient and friendly,
and makes for a very clean environment, however.... that's Microsoft,
and they have a funny idea of the world anyway. :)

(The above comment was not an invitation to start the MS bashing theme
in here again, nor the PC-vs-Mac theme, any culprits who indulge in
commenting either way, and starting the thread again will be savagely
flamed.)

>Well, not really "finally." It was more like the first idea I ever sent to
>a game company...

I said it before, I'll say it again.

Good Luck.

Congratulations, I hope it all works out for you :)

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Message no. 55 In article <01IH94DQC21695MNW0@******.acs.muohio.edu>,
TEGTMEBC@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU writes

>> recent, dating around about the time of Christ, some are older up to
>> 2000 years old, but in the main, they're "recent".
>
>Isn't that the same time period?

Yes it is, sorry my fault. :) Slip of the fingers don't you know.

>By the way, you forgot even better sites like
>Copan and Teotihuacan,

No I didn't forget those sites, but if I stuck a dirty great list of
sites here. i have details on 67 so far, and that's climbing whenever I
can find more, with details on assumed age, and other stuff, this post
would never get transmitted because of it's size.

>they have produced some of the best information we have
>about the rulers of these cities thanks to the stellas they left to celebrate
>the conquests.

The first place to produce the clues that gave archaeologists sufficient
information to decipher the Mayan glyphs was reputedly Palenque, with
the lid of the tomb of the priest Sun Lord Pacal (who died in 638AD). A
certain Maurice Cotterel claims to have broken the Mayan code in 1993.
The very same lid that Eric Von Daniken claimed was evidence of
prehistoric "space travellers".

>up, these sites were protected by the forests. They weren't effected by the
>pollution and vandalism that other sites have fallen prey to. Likewise, there
>was no new construction near by these areas, which others have to deal with.
>That's why they are in such good condition.

I tend to agree with you regarding their condition, but this is not
unique to Mexico and the Yucutan. Alright one of the most famous Incan
sites is pretty much trashed, but the pyramids and Pharoah tombs have
stood up well to erosion and vandalism. So, ecological protection
through natural means isn't really a valid point when considering the
possibilities of ancient ED constructions. I seem to recall somebody
(Paul Adams??) mentioning that ED was based on the southern Russian
continent, looking at that area, there's a heck of a lot of desert
mountain, forests and water around there. And the place isn't _heavily_
populated. Maybe, just maybe, there are things there as well. Ok, a
bit of a long call for UCAS metahumans, but with the hints that
Atlanteans made it to the US and S/CA it's not an unfair assumption that
something must remain.

> Yes, there are sites from before 300AD, but these are from the
>Pre-Classic period. Everything from 300-840AD is the Classic Mayan Period,
>which is where the typical Mayan culture is seen. The Pre-Classic goes from as
>early as 2000BC all the way to 300AD, but that is broken into three periods as
>it deals with cultures other than just that of the Maya. The Olmec are one of
>the other cultures dealt with, in fact.

The Olmec are officially recognised in 100 AD, (excuse me if I revert to
AD/BC as a lot of people aren't aware of the distinctions between
CE/BCE) as a result of the La Venta constructions, anything before that
qualifies in "official" eyes as "Archaic Civilisation", it's only in
recent years that the discoveries have led the institutions to rethink
their "tree" concerning the Olmec indians and the civilisations of that
time. I'm not disagreeing with you here, just clearing a small
misconception that I fell into regarding the Olmecs. :)

> Yes, there are remnants of Olmec construction, otherwise we wouldn't
>know that they created teh first ceremonial structures in North America. Some
>of these are, for those of you who care, Tres Zapotes and La Venta. La Venta
>was even inhabited up to 800BC. So it makes sense that Olmec sites are still
>standing since it is only 1100 yrs older than other Mayan sites.

The other interesting thing that has turned up from the further
explration of these cities is that the cores of the temples are much
older than the outer shell. This is taken as an implication that many
of the more modern sites are in fact built on older cities and temples.
There is indication as well, in some temples that construction took
place over a period of time, with each level representing 50 years

> Have to contradict you here. We do know when the first Amerinds crossed
>through Berigia.(The Bering Strait) They showed up following the herds of
>animals that came to America during the last Ice Age. In fact, there were three
>influxes of Indians as they followed different herds during three of the
>interstadials in said Ice Age.

Not to argue any points here, as I am aware of the theory that we all
originated from Africa and moved outwards from there, so yes, that is
one school of thought, and the most officially recognised one, however,
and this is not to be taken with any more than a pinch of salt, like the
dinosaur theorists, some people are changing their ideas and attitudes
in light ecidence that has since come to light that contradicts the
theory that the America's were unpopulated prior to the crossing of the
Straits in the Ice Age. Unfortunately there is little solid evidence at
the moment and is crapped upon from on high in the archaeological
circles. It is possible that one day the official theories will need to
be changed, in much the way they have over other things, like the flat
earth etc etc... <g> But not yet.

So yes, you are right, that's the official line, and the one in the good
books. :) Me, I'm a conspiracist, so I like the other theory, or at the
very least, a combination of the two.

>Things like Clovis Points and bone sherds found in the same strata have given
>us the time period of 10,000 BC.

And the mounds down the mississipi, the snake mound in Ohio and a wide
variety of rock paintings.

>> >>There was also a recent discovery of a village somewhere or other, that
>> >>is almost perfectly preserved, showing thatched roofed constructions of
>> >>a few thousands years age.
>
> I have to know, how are they able to prove the existence of the
>thatched roof? The thatching would rot away too quickly for it to even leave a
>soil stain to suggest its existance.

I have no idea. Sorry. However, there are notes of skin and thatch
roofing from Pincevente, France (10,000BP*) (mid summer-mid winter
lodge). Lapenski Vir, Danube (6,000BC), Langweiler (5,400BC) Mergarh,
River Bolan, South Asia (6,000BC). Banpo, River Zhuan, North China
(6,000BC) are a few examples, I can't quite remember, but I believe the
discovery of the village I mean is in China, I'll try and find the
information, it's here somewhere.
*BP = Before Present (always taken as 1950)

>there is no evidence of these metahuman cities. They have all been covered up
>by the human cities after the humans moved into those areas with the demise of
>the various metahumans.

This has been evidenced in Mayan construction and Tenochtitlan, where
they built Mexico City on top of it, so yep, your right. So, OK, the
majority of the old constructions of dwarfs etc could be buried under
current cities on the continent of it's origin. Fair enough, that's a
damn good point. (One I'd ignored up to now.)

> No, most prehistoric sites in NA are not habitable. With the exception
>of the Pueblo and various southwestern tribes, the Amerinds didn't create
>lasting structures. We only know about them from digs finding post-hole stains,
>fragments of churt/flint, and possibly pottery sherds.

>> explorers before the borders closed. And little about any
>> archaeological sites that may exist there to confirm this claim.
>
> Wrong. The Chinese have many sites to suggest the history of their
>culture.

I didn't say they didn't have many sites, just that we aren't familiar
with those sites. I have notes concerning some, but only a little,
certainly not the extensive records that are kept concenring other
sites.

>I'm not that familiar with the names, but I am familiar with the
>materials found at said sites. I have seen bronze vessels from the Shang
>dynasty (1766BC). These things alone imply a culture almost 3800 yrs old.

The origins of the civilisation date to about 3,000BC, critical
developments took place during the Longshan period (2500-1800BC) when
walled settlements were built and metalworking/pottery were developed,
the Shang civilisation developed in 1800BC in North east China, and was
the last of the four great civilisations. I have in my mitts a vast
list of sites, but no information covering these areas, hence the reason
I said little information to confirm the periods they claim. One such
claim was that the Chinese civilisation stretches back over 8,000BP, I
don't know of anything to confirm civilisation before 3KBC, and even
with the sites I know of, I can't find any but the most cursory details
concerning them.

> Unfortunately, as I explained earlier, they won't likely be found. They
>have probably been built over by the humans after they moved into the cities.

Gotta love progress huh? <sigh>

Anyway, this has got seriously OT at the moment, so if you want to
continue the discussion I guess it had better go to private mail,
otherwise it should end methinks, as not only are the posts getting into
epic proportions, but are so loosely SR related as to be transparent.
<g>

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Message no. 56 Avenger said on 22:29/ 3 Apr 97...

> http://www.aiai.ed.ac.uk/~timd/japanlinks.html
>
> Hope that helps some.

I'll check it out, and maybe add a printed-out Japan sourcebook to my
collection if it looks like halfway decent material...

> That is an encouraging sign and hopefully will be the form of future
> releases, even though some things still get screwed a tad. As far as
> the CFS book goes, I'm split 50/50 on that, some I like, some I don't,
> but then that's nothing new. <g>

I haven't read it well enough to really make up my mind about it. I tend
to glance over things a bit faster now that I don't play SR as often as I
used to anymore :(

> Probably for the same reason the Germany sourcebook isn't called the
> "Europe Sourcebook". Essentially it isn't.

Good enough reason :)

> If the book had stuck to just being a _London_ sourcebook, after all it
> is the capital and there's more than enough material there to fill one
> book. Leaving the rest of the UK to a seperate book, it *might* have
> been better.

That would be very unlikely, IMO. Separate books for a few important
cities in North America (Seattle and Chicago), sure, but separate books
about the capital and the rest of the country for some other nation that
most runners will only visit once or twice...?

> I've often voiced my opinions on the mistakes in the book, so I'll not
> bore everyone by repeating them here, yet again. The same for Europe I
> feel. The Germany sourcebook should have stuck to Germany. If we can
> have books on Aztlan (Mexico) Seattle, Denver,

Denver, though, is an interesting case IMHO. As I recall it was heralded
as the second "official game setting," next to Seattle. We got the boxed
set, and a few adventures set there, but that's it. I believe most of the
adventures brought out since the Denver box have been set in Seattle, not
Denver. Okay, so most source material, like Cybertech and the CorpSec
Handbook, can be used anywhere, but I don't think Denver became what many
of us (I, anyway) expected of it.
As a GM, I like Denver, but I have one problem: those damn borders. I know
they're part of what makes Denver, Denver, but I don't like to take at
least an hour every game session to play out the inevitable border
crossings that will have to take place.

> and individual themes, Corporate 'files, Cybertech, etc, then the books
> could have been limited to the country/city they concerned. That they
> were allowed to wandcer out, and cause so much damage, is not only
> (IMNSHO) silly and wasteful, but guaranteed to anger people living in
> those areas.

You won't get any arguments from me about that... Wanton destruction of
property is against the law, isn't it? :)

> >That's the Trekkie habit of finding explanations for everything, no matter
> >how unbelievable it may sound :)
>
> Are you accusing me of being a Trekkie?
> <growl, snarl, slavver>

Just observing that you exhibit the same behavior at times :)

[Cleaning up toxic waste dumps]
> As you said, if they could do it, why aren't they doing it?

As an example, I know for sure that the Dutch government would put
everything aside to reclaim the land lost in the "North Sea Disaster,"
and by the 2050s, only those who lived through it would know what had
changed. For some real-life comparisons, the dikes around island I live on
was bombed by the RAF in October 1944, flooding about 90% of the place; a
few years later, all holes were closed and the water was gone. In 1953 we
had a BIG flood (though it wasn't so bad where I live) and now the only
things that remind us of it are a few plaques and things in towns that
were hit particularly hard. I don't see why the Sixth World should change
that...

> Precisely, also, the way they destroyed Europe, I'm frankly stunned that
> there was sufficient forces to stop a Russian army, and of course
> there's the Russian fracturing that is occuring now, after the 2012
> incident, VITAS and UGE, what are the chances of the USSR being able to
> stage an invasion of Europe.

With the trouble they're having right now in even paying their soldiers,
I'd say they aren't able to mount any kind of real action (against NATO,
that is) ATM. If they get their economy right they may, but if VITAS and
UGE do have as serious an impact as FASA says they do, I doubt the Russian
military will be anything like what it used to be during the Cold War.

> Talsorian shrink wrap their books, TSR shrink wrap, Palladium shrink
> wrap, FASA don't.

Are you sure that whoever you buy them from doesn't do that? I was at a
con today and most books I saw weren't shrink-wrapped.

> >take a look at http://people.zeelandnet.nl/ and go for the "spelregels"
> >link.
>
> OK, I'll poke around, why not <g> Am I going to enjoy this? <s>

Depends on how much fun you have decrypting weird, foreign languages :)

> >All corporations are sinister, it's part of the definition :)
>
> I think I've got into enough trouble without qualifying this remark with
> the kind of answer I have to hand. Some people don't like my thoughts
> <grin>

That looks like enough of an answer to me :)

> >game company web sites I've looked at only advertise their own products.
>
> Isn't that the main idea of it though? With the massively increasing
> presence of people on the net, more secure methods of financial
> transaction, and more potential customers browsing around, it's only
> logical to present the product first.

Naturally, but I feel it can be so much more than just an electronic
version of the company's normal catalog, sometimes enhanced by the
addition of an order form. And let's be fair, a sneak preview of a new
release is nothing more than an advertisement for the finished product.

One site that springs to mind is Decipher (my brother plays the SW CCG,
so I occasionally catch a glimpse of their site) and it has a lot more
than just ads for products.

> Off the cuff, although more anarchic, is a lot more fun. I can think of
> nothing worse than getting bogged down reading vast chunks of "Tell it
> to them straight" spoiling the continuity. Also, as my players have
> said on several occassions after the game is over and they look through
> the module "We wouldn't do that!"

My current players are too new to SR (and to roleplaying in general) to do
that, luckily for me. Even then, when I read/translate a Tell it to them
straight bit I pause after every few sentences to allow them to jump in.
It doesn't usually affect the outcome of the encounter, but I think it
gives them a greater sense of involvement.

> A point in case was in one book, where the "TITTS" (is that a Freudian
> slip on the part of FASA?)

Ever tried abbreviating the name of a certain Eadrthdawn adventure? :)

> [T$R] obviously believed *all* the bad press about the net. - At least
> that's the company line anyway. I'm inclined to think there was a
> certain amount of militancy mixed up in there as well.

Probably a desire to show who's boss, maybe mixed in with the feeling
that everybody playing their games had to do it TSR's way and like it.
Although those two are pretty similar, come to thing about it.

> >As for the bandwidth,
> >hardly anybody complains about the massive bandwidth taken up by all those
> >graphic WWW pages...
>
> Really? You listen to different areas than I do Gurth. <g> The latest
> complaints that I've heard are about massive pictures on pages, huge
> Java scripts that don't run, producing all manner of errors, scripts and
> other things that make browsers choke... But I get your mening :)

I wasn't really thinking about folks like us who've been doing this kind
of thing for years, but more about those new to the internet who are
continually amazed by pretty but content-less WWW pages.

> I said it before, I'll say it again.
>
> Good Luck.
>
> Congratulations, I hope it all works out for you :)

Thanks, and so do I :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Everyone's looking for something,
And they assume somebody else knows what it is.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 57 Avenger said on 22:39/ 3 Apr 97...

> FAir enough, with the addition of graphics, it's not always easy to keep
> the file down in size, however, I don't feel that a the size of your net
> books is prohibitive, only one (IIRC) is above 1mb the rest are a few
> hundred K. a pain on a slow connection but...

Two are larger than 1 MB, I think. The rest are just large in number of
pages :) On a slow connection it can be bad to download them (I know it
was to upload some of them) but with ISDN me don't have no troubles at
all :)

> >and the
> >paper it takes to print them.
>
> Print them??? I gave up on that idea a while back when I realised I
> had three lever arch files of equipment...

I want to get this kind of stuff in hardcopy, so I don't have to switch on
my computer and look up the right file. Plus IMO reading from a book isn't
as tiring as from a computer screen...

> Of course. The average SR player is going to want to have as many
> gadgets, toys, wizzy bits and weapons he/she can get their grubby little
> hands on, all for the single purpose of making their "game" life easier.

That's a desire of most gamers, I think. Even though they know it's not
about the number of things you own, it always nice to have the right tool
for the right job.

> I, and I think my players, prefer a game based more on intrigue and
> deception than gadgets, but when they find something they like, it gets
> adopted and used where possible. There isn't enough in the way of
> "functional" toys in SR

I feel exactly the opposite :) There are enough useful toys in SR, but WAY
too few useless ones... I'm the kind of player who wants gadgets that have
very little or no game use, but which are nice to write down as
being "owned by my character," like stereos, clothes, TV sets, and so on.
Cans of oil are also always handy, but not covered by any sourcebook
somehow... :)

> so the PW books, CP2020/Rifts?etc books have added toys for them to use
> if they need it. The more toys and gadgets, the larger the GM's
> headache keeping up with it all, but players love 'em.

Not for me... Of course I'm to blame for a large number of items currently
being used by SR players the world over, so...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Everyone's looking for something,
And they assume somebody else knows what it is.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 58 Gurth wrote:
|
| Denver, though, is an interesting case IMHO. As I recall it was heralded
| as the second "official game setting," next to Seattle. We got the boxed
| set, and a few adventures set there, but that's it. I believe most of the
| adventures brought out since the Denver box have been set in Seattle, not
| Denver. Okay, so most source material, like Cybertech and the CorpSec
| Handbook, can be used anywhere, but I don't think Denver became what many
| of us (I, anyway) expected of it.

As a Denver native I was thrilled when it came out. I was looking
forward to the Denver based adventures to follow. But then pffffff,
nothin. That's okay though, I'm a creative GM and can come up with
my own adventures.

| As a GM, I like Denver, but I have one problem: those damn borders. I know
| they're part of what makes Denver, Denver, but I don't like to take at
| least an hour every game session to play out the inevitable border
| crossings that will have to take place.

I had to get a large print map of Denver and add the borders in so I
could keep track of them as the characters travel. That was fun,
not! And, as far as border crossing go, I ran the first one so the
players would know what it was like, but now we don't roleplay them
unless an unusual circumstance requires it. And I design my
adventures to take the time to cross borders into account. And it
keeps the characters from running around willy nilly when they're
under a time crunch. They really have to take the time to think
about where they're going next.

Overall I really like Denver. I just wish FASA would publish some
adventures for it. (Hmm, maybe I'll check out those submission
guidelines...)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

Message no. 59 In article <199704041905.VAA25199@**********.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> writes

>Two are larger than 1 MB, I think. The rest are just large in number of
>pages :) On a slow connection it can be bad to download them (I know it
>was to upload some of them) but with ISDN me don't have no troubles at
>all :)

I've got a fast connection, but not ISDN, just can't afford that sort of
toy. :(

>> Print them??? I gave up on that idea a while back when I realised I
>> had three lever arch files of equipment...
>
>I want to get this kind of stuff in hardcopy, so I don't have to switch on
>my computer and look up the right file. Plus IMO reading from a book isn't
>as tiring as from a computer screen...

It can get tiring looking through what is essentially a text document on
white paper, and searching for the right piece, but with the new toys
built into office97, and FrontPage, what I've been doing is building the
whole lot similar to an electronic book, with hyperlinking and VBScript
to run the various sections, stick a few animations and other bits into
it to make it look like a "futuristic" datastore, organise it neatly
into it's own little directories, burn it onto a cd and hey presto,
pretty coloured E-book. So far it looks good, but it's going to be a
while before my players will get to use it. I usually have my computer
on during game sessions anyway, so having another one switched on in
easy reach of the players isn't really a bind.

>I feel exactly the opposite :) There are enough useful toys in SR, but WAY
>too few useless ones...

Oh, righto, so you'd like to see more use of fishbowls and ratchet
screwdrivers huh? Well, if there's a use it's only a short trip to the
hardware store, or the electronics emporium for that all essential MW
band only radio receiver. <g> I know the books don't cover "essentail"
things like choccy bars, and cans of oil, but come on... They couldn't
possibly cover everything like that without getting into the realms of
"we're being silly now". Want some oil, pop into Automart, or your
nearest Texaco/Exxon station.

>Not for me... Of course I'm to blame for a large number of items currently
>being used by SR players the world over, so...

Yes you are, and my players owe you their lives on more than one
occassion <g>

--
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Message no. 60 David Buehrer said on 13:01/ 4 Apr 97...

> As a Denver native I was thrilled when it came out. I was looking
> forward to the Denver based adventures to follow. But then pffffff,
> nothin. That's okay though, I'm a creative GM and can come up with
> my own adventures.

And you don't have the feeling of "Kill! Kill! Kill!" every time somebody
mentions the Denver set? Guess here we have one sourcebook that "went
right" as it were :)

> I had to get a large print map of Denver and add the borders in so I
> could keep track of them as the characters travel. That was fun,
> not!

I just tacked the ones in the set onto my wall, next to the map of Seattle
that I made by photocopying the maps in the back of the Seattle Sourcebook
and fitting them together -- which they don't, not as well as they should
anyway. It looks like somebody drew separate maps of all the districts,
instead of a large one of all of Seattle and cutting that into pieces.

> Overall I really like Denver. I just wish FASA would publish some
> adventures for it. (Hmm, maybe I'll check out those submission
> guidelines...)

Good luck :)

--
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...instead of just leaving.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 61 Avenger said on 0:50/ 5 Apr 97...

> >I feel exactly the opposite :) There are enough useful toys in SR, but WAY
> >too few useless ones...
>
> Oh, righto, so you'd like to see more use of fishbowls and ratchet
> screwdrivers huh? Well, if there's a use it's only a short trip to the
> hardware store, or the electronics emporium for that all essential MW
> band only radio receiver. <g> I know the books don't cover
"essentail"
> things like choccy bars, and cans of oil, but come on... They couldn't
> possibly cover everything like that without getting into the realms of
> "we're being silly now". Want some oil, pop into Automart, or your
> nearest Texaco/Exxon station.

I wasn't saying there should be stats and prices for anything from timber
to fried fish, but some nice gadgets that have no real game use would be
nice. That's why I like the Chromebooks so much, they have these cool
things like Bar-In-A-Briefcase or foam furniture :)

Oh, and the can of oil thing is sort of an in-joke from the last time I
got to actually play SR instead of GM it (gods, that's almost 2 years ago
now...). Too bad the guy who GMed at the time isn't on the list anymore.

> >Not for me... Of course I'm to blame for a large number of items currently
> >being used by SR players the world over, so...
>
> Yes you are, and my players owe you their lives on more than one
> occassion <g>

Looks like I've done my good deed for tolife :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
...instead of just leaving.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 62 Date: 1 Apr 97 Time: 4:36
Subject: Re: World Map

TO: Avenger

> You know the sort of thing. "American company, the majority of
> players are American" that sort of drek.

:)

It's not that bad, though. Most yanks have and are quite proud of
the ties that they have in whatever countries their ancestors are
from.

a chaoidh teabadaich,

Shaun Sides
arch@****.net
http://www.abts.net/~arch

Never go in against a Sicilian, when DEATH is on the line!
Ha ha ha haha ha. Ha ha ha haha. Ha ha ha <thump>
-- Fezinni, from The Princess Bride

Message no. 63 In article <199704061522.LAA18360@****.abts.net>, Shaun Sides
<arch@****.ABTS.NET> writes
>Date: 1 Apr 97 Time: 4:36
>Subject: Re: World Map
>
>TO: Avenger
>
>> You know the sort of thing. "American company, the majority of
>> players are American" that sort of drek.
>
>:)
>
>It's not that bad, though. Most yanks have and are quite proud of
>the ties that they have in whatever countries their ancestors are
>from.

You may have misunderstood my intent with that comment. Previously when
making observations regarding the intensive treatment of the UCAS in SR,
comments have been fired at me, that it's an American company and the
majority of players are American, this is an arrogant assumption on the
part of those making these comments, the US isn't the be all and end all
of the world, but there you go. :)

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/

Message no. 64 On Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:35:46 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
<Snip FanPro>
>> It's much easier to let players have a sourcebook directed at them,
and
>> keep the meat back, than to keep handing books around saying "please
>> don't read that bit".... <sigh>
>
>That was especially bad with Threats, IMO. All the gamemaster material
>should have been in the back of the book, and not after each chapter.
Now
>it's almost impossible to hand it to the players and let them read bits
of
>it without having them also read the GM-only section of each chapter.
>

I haven't yet gotten Threats (probably to my playerss' delight). I doubt
I'd let them read the book, even if the GM stuff was separate. It would
give them too much insight into stuff they maybe wouldn't know about
(like world-wide conspiracies:)

>> OK, in refelction of this, that's precisely what happened with the
>> Chrome Book 4 release from R. Talsorian. The staff toured the web,
took
>> what they thought was cool, and stuffed it into a sourcebook,
>> unfortunately a couple of mistakes were made, one contributor was
>> missed in the credits (ammended) and a couple of seriously stupid
items
>> got into the book.
>
>Nonetheless I say it's a good move. There's a LOAD of stuff out there on
>the net, but all I've seen FASA do (I might be wrong here of course, I
>don't work for FASA) is have one or two people re-write the things they
>originally put up on the web and then put it into a sourcebook. I'm
>thinking of the learning rules from the Companion here, which Fro tell
me
>are still up on Linda Naughton's web page too. Come to think of it, she
>also submitted them to Shadowland, so maybe that's how they came to
FASA's
>attention in the first place...
>

Odd. As much stuff as is around, you'd think they'd take a look at it.

>> R. Talsorian are also, I believe hosting the web site of a player who
>> had to remove his web pages for personal reasons. They were more than
>> happy to take his archive and stick it on their site, a move that may
>> set a precedent amongst game companies, though I doubt it.
>
>There aren't even links to BT, ED, or SR players' pages on FASA's web
>page, even though Lou Prosperi asked for URLs on the ED list a few
months
>before FASA's page first got put up. Even if no WWW-"published" (I know
>that's not the right word for legal reasons or something) material gets
>used by FASA, I don't see why no links can be set up. And I don't buy
"It
>may cause legal trouble" stuff -- I highly doubt anyone who creates an
>HTML page with some SR stuff on it will sue FASA for adding a link to
that
>page... And there are always disclaimers of the "All pages linked to are
>not official FASA material blah blah blah" kind.
>

Wouldn't bother me. I'd be more than happy if they'd put a link to my
page, such as it is.

>> Yes it would be nice if FASA decided to take some of the fan material
>> and put it in a book, copyright isn't an issue, as it merely requires
>> the permission of the owner, however, payment is another matter.
>
>I don't see payment being a problem either, they could always pay their
>nomal rates for articles IMHO.
>

I'd be happy with being in print! The would be thrill enough for me.
OTOH, I don't see it happening any day soon, my stuff's not that
original, unfortunately.

>> I don't think (though I could be wrong) that Talsorian paid for the
>> contributions to the Chrome Book, people were just very happy to be a
>> part of the official material and get their name in print.... the
>> fifteen minutes of fame thing. :)
>
>Not sure, but I do know one person who had some stuff he wrote published
>in CB4 (it was originally in one of the Information Overload
>net.sourcebooks) and he was told his name wouldn't be in the credits; in
>the end it did appear there, though he didn't tell me if he got any
>payment apart from a complimentary copy of the book.
>

I could go with that...even if I didn't get any payment, having my name
in print would be more than enough:)

<snip>
--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

Message no. 65 > >Nonetheless I say it's a good move. There's a LOAD of stuff out there on
> >the net, but all I've seen FASA do (I might be wrong here of course, I
> >don't work for FASA) is have one or two people re-write the things they
> >originally put up on the web and then put it into a sourcebook. I'm
> >thinking of the learning rules from the Companion here, which Fro tell
> me
> >are still up on Linda Naughton's web page too. Come to think of it, she
> >also submitted them to Shadowland, so maybe that's how they came to
> FASA's
> >attention in the first place...
> >
>
> Odd. As much stuff as is around, you'd think they'd take a look at it.
>

*grin* Well, FASAMike's back checking his mail, so maybe he'll take note
of all the bitching and whinging that we've been doing.

You are read this, aren't you Mike?? :::::::) [horror smiley]

> >may cause legal trouble" stuff -- I highly doubt anyone who creates an
> >HTML page with some SR stuff on it will sue FASA for adding a link to
> that
> >page... And there are always disclaimers of the "All pages linked to are
> >not official FASA material blah blah blah" kind.
>
> Wouldn't bother me. I'd be more than happy if they'd put a link to my
> page, such as it is.
>

Personally, I want FASA to join the SR webring *grin*

> >Not sure, but I do know one person who had some stuff he wrote published
> >in CB4 (it was originally in one of the Information Overload
> >net.sourcebooks) and he was told his name wouldn't be in the credits; in
> >the end it did appear there, though he didn't tell me if he got any
> >payment apart from a complimentary copy of the book.
> >
>
> I could go with that...even if I didn't get any payment, having my name
> in print would be more than enough:)
>

And on that note, I think you speak for almost every Shadowrun player in
existence.

The ones that have such inflated egos that they _need_ payment as a form
of acknowledgement, you probably wouldn't get any useable material out
of anyway.

Marty

Message no. 66 >> I could go with that...even if I didn't get any payment, having my name
>> in print would be more than enough:)
>And on that note, I think you speak for almost every Shadowrun player in
>existence.

Can you imagine how some of us would react to a token payment?

(ME to my gamers): "And FASA _PAID_ me $100 to print this sourcebook in my
name!"

Gamers: "oh! Ah!"

(But then, I shouldn't of said this, since I am hoping to someday have FASA
pay me :) )

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 67 MARTIN E. GOTTHARD said on 10:28/ 7 Apr 97...

> > I could go with that...even if I didn't get any payment, having my name
> > in print would be more than enough:)
>
> And on that note, I think you speak for almost every Shadowrun player in
> existence.

Would you write a 50,000-word sourcebook in exchange for only your name on
the cover and a copy of the book?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
In my mind all the time.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 68 At 11:15 4/7/97 +0100, Gurth wrote:

>> And on that note, I think you speak for almost every Shadowrun player in
>> existence.
>
>Would you write a 50,000-word sourcebook in exchange for only your name on
>the cover and a copy of the book?

You have :)
Maybe didn't *write* it all, but you've organized and edited it all :)

-Adam
"Hell, I wrote it, I wouldn't want a copy, just my name on the front!"

Message no. 69 > > > I could go with that...even if I didn't get any payment, having my name
> > > in print would be more than enough:)
> >
> > And on that note, I think you speak for almost every Shadowrun player in
> > existence.
>
> Would you write a 50,000-word sourcebook in exchange for only your name on
> the cover and a copy of the book?
>

Ummmm, no.... but I was under the impression that we were talking about
smaller items/articles for eventual collection into an official FASA net
sourcebook

Personally I don't like my chances of ever getting a sourcebook published
in my name; I don't have the dedication to stick with such a frustrating
and painful project to completion.

Anyway, I think that the above just about counts as spam, so I'll terminate
this here.

Bleach.

BTW; I just went to the Tool concert..... it was bitch'n'!!
[display huge drek-eating grin]

Message no. 70 I was picking trough the Thoughts: Sourcebook ideas thread (OK, so I;m a
little behind lately) when I started to remeber what africa and asia
looks like in SR, politically. Right about then I realized I;ve never
really seen a complete world map as of 2050. The BBB only has a map of
north america. No, I know at least a France sourcebook is out, so why
can't FASA at least piece together the semblance of a world map? Every
schoolchild in 2050 would have seen a world map at least, why can't the
consumers who are paying $15 a sourcebook? :-)

--
If a device is designed to do one thing really well, it can be
redesigned to do many things badly.
-Paranoia R&D
Datastore 8 - http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Maze/1673/

Message no. 71 At 05:57 PM 8/6/99 -0400, grahamdrew wrote:
<snip>
>north america. No, I know at least a France sourcebook is out, so why
>can't FASA at least piece together the semblance of a world map? Every
>schoolchild in 2050 would have seen a world map at least, why can't the
>consumers who are paying $15 a sourcebook? :-)

Well, FASA hasn't but this guy has, it's pretty good.

http://www.flashpt.com/lward/sixthworld/default.html

--00DNA
"...connection terminated."

Message no. 72 And finally, grahamdrew expressed himself by writing:

> I was picking trough the Thoughts: Sourcebook ideas thread (OK, so I;m a
> little behind lately) when I started to remeber what africa and asia
> looks like in SR, politically. Right about then I realized I;ve never
> really seen a complete world map as of 2050. The BBB only has a map of
> north america. No, I know at least a France sourcebook is out, so why
> can't FASA at least piece together the semblance of a world map? Every
> schoolchild in 2050 would have seen a world map at least, why can't the
> consumers who are paying $15 a sourcebook? :-)

there's a map as pdf-file on Wordman's site, looks really nice and easily
printable

http://www.flashpt.com/lward/sixthworld/ or something like this
is the url...

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
All suspects are guilty, serious. Otherwise they
wouldn't be suspects, would they?
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;

Message no. 73 At 21.45 08-06-99 -0400, you wrote:
>Well, FASA hasn't but this guy has, it's pretty good.
>http://www.flashpt.com/lward/sixthworld/default.html

Errr.....
It has some problems.
Occording to the world history found in the front of SR2, Italy and
southern France fragmented into city-states. They also make it sound like
Amazonia has been able to grab most, if not all of South America, with
(IIRC) Bolivia being mentioned by name as one of the consumed. Hong Kong
also seperated, and is functioning as an independent city-state. It is
strongly suggested in Rigger BB that Astralia and New Zealand are one
nation, and have significant holdings/beach heads in New Guinea, possibly
the rest of the south Pacific. None of these are shown in his map.
I also question if Iraq could aviod being consumed into one of the other,
larger Middle Eastern coutnries. They are tough, but not that tough. In
Africa, he shows Libya being consumed by the Algerians, but is not the
Desert Wars occuring in Libiya, not Algeria. As for the "Pan-African
Federation", I strongly doubt it would be THAT big.

While it is a good start, that map is lacking. It is time for FASA to
give us a map, at least.

Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"'Impossible' is a term used by those of little imagination or intelligence
to describe that which they can not understand."

Message no. 74 00DNA wrote:
>
> At 05:57 PM 8/6/99 -0400, grahamdrew wrote:
> <snip>
> >north america. No, I know at least a France sourcebook is out, so why
> >can't FASA at least piece together the semblance of a world map? Every
> >schoolchild in 2050 would have seen a world map at least, why can't the
> >consumers who are paying $15 a sourcebook? :-)
>
> Well, FASA hasn't but this guy has, it's pretty good.
>
> http://www.flashpt.com/lward/sixthworld/default.html
>
> --00DNA
> "...connection terminated."

Well, half of it is that FASA just hasn't given us the data about what's
over there. I don't know where the data for this map came from, but it
probably results from a lot of judgement calls and preditcions on the
author's part. That probably makes it inaccurate.

Half of it is just saying that FASA is lacking a LOT. I would think a
waorld map would be a basic part of any RPG universe. It just seems
that FASA has been neglecting it a lot.
--
If a device is designed to do one thing really well, it can be
redesigned to do many things badly.
-Paranoia R&D
Datastore 8 - http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Maze/1673/

Message no. 75 When I read through the countries of Middle East, I stumbled across
something like "Not an official country. Will appear in the unpublished
NERPS: The Neo-Anarchists Guide to the World."
When is this one going to hit the streets?

--
Arcaist (><) www.s-s-r.de

Message no. 76 "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Arcaist."
] When I read through the countries of Middle East, I stumbled across
] something like "Not an official country. Will appear in the unpublished
] NERPS: The Neo-Anarchists Guide to the World."
] When is this one going to hit the streets?

Never? NERPS is unofficially dead, last I heard.

-Murder of One

To: All Employees
From: Human Resources
Subject: Short Term Disability benefit plan
-------------------------------------------------------------
"We are pleased to make available to you an
additional opportunity to enroll in the Voluntary
STD benefit option."

Message no. 77 > really seen a complete world map as of 2050. The BBB only has a map of
> north america. No, I know at least a France sourcebook is out, so why
> can't FASA at least piece together the semblance of a world map? Every
> schoolchild in 2050 would have seen a world map at least, why can't the
> consumers who are paying $15 a sourcebook? :-)

I for one would love world maps.
Last time I mentioned the idea of some global reference though the list in
general seemed to not want anything; saying it would lock in FASA's
creativity on future products.

But a simple map with a paragraph on each nation stating general
population, government type, religion, and so on would be nice. Something
like those sections in the beginning of many sourcebooks that show the 'city
at a glance' on a chart with a following very brief intro.

Every other near future RPG has this in the basic book.

Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
The Revolution will not be televised; it'll be emailed.
/.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
\(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.

Message no. 78 At 08:04 PM 8/7/99 -0700, Arcady wrote:

>I for one would love world maps. Last time I mentioned the idea of some
>global reference though the list in general seemed to not want anything;
>saying it would lock in FASA's creativity on future products.
>
> But a simple map with a paragraph on each nation stating general
>population, government type, religion, and so on would be nice. Something
>like those sections in the beginning of many sourcebooks that show the 'city
>at a glance' on a chart with a following very brief intro.
>
>Every other near future RPG has this in the basic book.

I concur wholeheartedly. This is really basic stuff. FASA should have
included a map in the "big black book" of every version. If they can't do
that, they should at least attempt some sort of global atlas-type
sourcebook, using the modern-day CIA factbooks as a guide. I can name at
least three other post-modern type games that have done something
similar. And it should all be in one place -- none of this being forced to
purchase a zillion sourcebooks and read the entire line of ROC novels just
to see what the new names of the countries (and their major cities) are and
where their damn borders are drawn.

Redrawing the world map isn't that big a deal, anyway. Disputed or
disorganized areas can be marked as such, as can war zones. And any
*major* changes can be updated via .pdf files on their website. On the
other hand, they could just license Wordman's Sixth World Shockwave map,
and use it as a starting point. That thing absolutely kicks ass. Thanks
again for the resource, Wordman.

And I *really* get tired of all this whiny crap about FASA not getting
"locked in" to fleshing out various locales -- it's been ten years, and (as
far as I know) we have yet to see dick published about Imperial Japan, the
Middle East or the entire continent of Africa. So, that begs the question
of exactly what creativity it *is* that an atlas would lock down? I never
wanted FASA to go and publish a deeply involved "Target: Blah-Blah" book
for every nation on Earth, and I won't buy them individually if they do. I
want one resource with a map, some population demographics, and a *very*
loose framework of the world according to the FASA canon, so I can flesh
out my own campaign world. I don't think that's an unrealistic expectation.

~ Snake Eyes

Message no. 79 And so it was written...

by Arcady.
<snip>
But a simple map with a paragraph on each nation stating general
population, government type, religion, and so on would be nice.
Something like those sections in the beginning of many source books
that show the 'city at a glance' on a chart with a following very brief intro.
</snip>

by Snake Eyes
<snip>
I concur wholeheartedly. This is really basic stuff. FASA should have
included a map in the "big black book" of every version. If they can't
do that, they should at least attempt some sort of global atlas-type
source book, using the modern-day CIA fact books as a guide.
</snip>

IIRC in an interview with Mike Mulvihill he did with TSS he mentioned
one of the things he didn't like was that the Shadowrun world was "incomplete."

One of two things needs to be done to give this world a more "complete"
feel. Either the "Target: Earth" atlas that was mentioned earlier needs
to be printed to give us something to work off of for our individual
campaigns, or FASA needs to consider going back to printing books for
individual continents/countries. I either need a little information on
everyone, or all the geographical information about one area in one
source book.

I am hardly demanding here. Just saying what I would like to see.

Sincerely,
Aristotle the Sleeping Op

Message no. 80 >by Arcady.
><snip>
>But a simple map with a paragraph on each nation stating general
>population, government type, religion, and so on would be nice.
>Something like those sections in the beginning of many source books
>that show the 'city at a glance' on a chart with a following very brief intro.

></snip>
>
>by Snake Eyes
><snip>
>I concur wholeheartedly. This is really basic stuff. FASA should have
>included a map in the "big black book" of every version. If they can't
>do that, they should at least attempt some sort of global atlas-type
>source book, using the modern-day CIA fact books as a guide.
></snip>
>
>IIRC in an interview with Mike Mulvihill he did with TSS he mentioned
>one of the things he didn't like was that the Shadowrun world was
"incomplete."

>
>One of two things needs to be done to give this world a more "complete"
>feel. Either the "Target: Earth" atlas that was mentioned earlier needs

This is what I would prefer. A short book with no more than 'At a Glance' entries
for each nation, followed by a global map that showed national borders.

Leaves plenty of room for future development and at the same time answers some
major questions. Oh and I am demanding here. :)

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