Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Thu Jan 25 17:42:19 2001
25 January 2001
After 20 happy-and difficult-years in business, FASA Corporation is closing
its doors.

http://www.fasa.com/PressReleases/PRClose.html

?!?

Arclight
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Andrew Murdoch)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Thu Jan 25 18:12:04 2001
- Arclight <23:51/25-Jan-2001>

> 25 January 2001
> After 20 happy-and difficult-years in business, FASA Corporation is closing
> its doors.
>
> http://www.fasa.com/PressReleases/PRClose.html

DAMMIT! I wanted to make a bid for the BattleTech property.


--
Hail, Centurion!
Andrew C. Murdoch
toreador@***.bc.ca
http://members.nbci.com/corvisraven
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Patrick Bierlein)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Thu Jan 25 22:55:01 2001
Please tell me that something good will come of this. I really do hate to se
FASA going away since I've been playing their games for a long time. Anyone
else have any other info about this, like why it's happening?

Oukami

----- Original Message -----
From: "Arclight" <arclight@*********.de>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 5:51 PM
Subject: WTF???????


>
> 25 January 2001
> After 20 happy-and difficult-years in business, FASA Corporation is
closing
> its doors.
>
> http://www.fasa.com/PressReleases/PRClose.html
>
> ?!?
>
> Arclight
>
>
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Tenkilian)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Thu Jan 25 23:10:01 2001
<snipity>

Hey. . they're giving SR rights to WizKids, which was made by an ex-FASA
person. So wouldn't they want to keep SR going? :)

Tenkilian
-------------
GCS(GAT) d>d-- s-:- a-->a? C++++ S E W+>W++ w PS? PE Y+ R+ tv-@ b+ DI+++ G
e>e+++ h>h+ r--- !y+**

Fear is the mind killer, fear is the little death that brings total
obliteration, I will face my fear, I will let it wash over me and through
me, I will look back upon the path of my fear and all that will remain is
me.
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rookie)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Thu Jan 25 23:45:01 2001
> Hey. . they're giving SR rights to WizKids, which was made by
> an ex-FASA
> person. So wouldn't they want to keep SR going? :)
>


Maybe the play testers for SRIII will actually see their book that Fasa said
they would get for play testing.

-Rookie
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (J. Keith Henry)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Fri Jan 26 00:55:04 2001
From: "Tenkilian" <jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu>
Subject: Re: WTF???????


> Hey. . they're giving SR rights to WizKids, which was made by an ex-FASA
> person. So wouldn't they want to keep SR going? :)

Let us all hope so at least.
-Keith
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Fri Jan 26 05:30:15 2001
According to Tenkilian, on Fri, 26 Jan 2001 the word on the street was...

> Hey. . they're giving SR rights to WizKids, which was made by an ex-FASA
> person. So wouldn't they want to keep SR going? :)

Since Wizkids (with the "ex-FASA person" Jordan Weisman, of BattleTech
fame) is going to take over the line, at least we'll still have Shadowrun.
I just hope they keep working with the current large number of
freelancers, and not go back to the days of a small group of writers...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
My ocular organs!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Andrew Murdoch)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Fri Jan 26 06:05:01 2001
- Patrick Bierlein <23:10/25-Jan-2001>

> Please tell me that something good will come of this. I really do hate to se
> FASA going away since I've been playing their games for a long time. Anyone
> else have any other info about this, like why it's happening?

I think I can say with conviction, if nor authority, that some good will
come of this, though I can't say anything until after April 30th 'cause
I'm still under the NDA. =)

--
Hail, Centurion!
Andrew C. Murdoch
toreador@***.bc.ca
http://members.nbci.com/corvisraven
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Simon and Fiona)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 02:40:01 2001
-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Bierlein <oukami@**.rr.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Friday, January 26, 2001 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: WTF???????


>Please tell me that something good will come of this. I really do hate to
se
>FASA going away since I've been playing their games for a long time. Anyone
>else have any other info about this, like why it's happening?
>
>Oukami
>


I don't really know how well off FASA was financially, but it did seem to be
doing very well. So is everyone sure it is for monetary reasons? Is it
possible that some kind of internal squabble or a hostile takeover may be
behind this.
Besides that, its a shame and I feel bad for the job losses and everything,
but the fact is that Shadowrun is no less playable as a result. Possibly
moreso, if they never print another book, then you can buy every last book
and have all the info there is. Just looking on the bright side.
By the way, the most annoying thing for me is, for nearly a decade there's
been promise of an Australia sourcebook. Now there's not.
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (abortion_engine)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 12:55:01 2001
From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>
>According to Tenkilian, on Fri, 26 Jan 2001 the word on the street was...
> > Hey. . they're giving SR rights to WizKids, which was made by an
> > ex-FASA person. So wouldn't they want to keep SR going? :)
>
> Since Wizkids (with the "ex-FASA person" Jordan Weisman, of
> BattleTech fame) is going to take over the line, at least we'll still
> have Shadowrun. I just hope they keep working with the current
> large number of freelancers, and not go back to the days of a
> small group of writers...

I don't know about that. Let's remember, if we can, that Bug City was
written by "a small group of writers," and not by an enourmous crew of
freelancers. So was Aztlan, and Tir Tairngire. So was Shadowtech. Books
written by a large number of freelancers? Cannon Companion. Man and Machine.
Oh, be still my beating heart. No, really.

I think there is a certain unity of purpose that comes from a single writer
with a single idea. The phenomenon is not limited to roleplaying books; in
fact, I first noted it in music. Think about the difference between, say,
Nine Inch Nails' "Pretty Hate Machine," for example, versus, say, any Pearl
Jam album. [Forgive the examples, if you would; I simply need something
everyone is likely to have heard.] While both are produced by talented
musicians, they're very different albums, and not merely because of the
style of the album. There is, again, a unity, a holistic intent, in having a
single mind at the helm of a project.

As additional support, I provide the progression - again, not
stylistically - from "Pretty Hate Machine" onward. Even with a single person
at the helm, having several musicians create a single work changes the
presentation of the work. Personally, I like to make that connection
vis-a-vis the creator, and I don't generally find that when the creator is a
group, and not an individual.

The stylistic unity, and the unity of intent, in books like Bug City is very
different from that of, say, Cannon Companion. And again, don't let type
delude you; see beyond the type of book and look instead at the intent.

Personally, I hope Wiz goes back to using a small stable of dedicated
writers who can each produce excellent work on their own, with only an
editor standing in between intent and execution. But that's just me; Wiz -
and all of you - may see it differently.

*shrug* We'll find out sooner or later. I'm just happy that my baby is going
home to her daddy, and away from the venomous foster parents who've made her
into something she's not.
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 13:10:02 2001
Von Abortion_Engine :

> > Since Wizkids (with the "ex-FASA person" Jordan Weisman, of
> > BattleTech fame) is going to take over the line, at least we'll still
> > have Shadowrun. I just hope they keep working with the current
> > large number of freelancers, and not go back to the days of a
> > small group of writers...
>
>I don't know about that. Let's remember, if we can, that Bug City was
>written by "a small group of writers," and not by an enourmous crew of
>freelancers. So was Aztlan, and Tir Tairngire. So was Shadowtech. Books
>written by a large number of freelancers? Cannon Companion. Man and Machine.
>Oh, be still my beating heart. No, really.

Sorry, but AFAIK this was a decision of MikeM, not from the freelancers.
Besides the layout (=no pics, no shadowtalk) I very much enjoyed the
SR3-generation books.

<snip>

>Personally, I hope Wiz goes back to using a small stable of dedicated
>writers who can each produce excellent work on their own, with only an
>editor standing in between intent and execution. But that's just me; Wiz -
>and all of you - may see it differently.

On the offside, a large team of writers get's you specialists each working
in their field. With a smaller number, you can get into the "jack of all
trades, master of none"-field of things.

>*shrug* We'll find out sooner or later. I'm just happy that my baby is going
>home to her daddy, and away from the venomous foster parents who've made her
>into something she's not.

Sorry, but I honestly don't like this paragraph.

Arclight
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 13:10:40 2001
--part1_32.fd21fb2.27a46c38_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 01/27/2001 1:12:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
abortion_engine@*******.com writes:


> *shrug* We'll find out sooner or later. I'm just happy that my baby is going
> home to her daddy, and away from the venomous foster parents who've made her
> into something she's not.

Oh, c'mon. MM's reign as DLOH hasn't been all bad, has it?

--part1_32.fd21fb2.27a46c38_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated
01/27/2001 1:12:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<BR>abortion_engine@*******.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">*shrug* We'll find out
sooner or later. I'm just happy that my baby is going
<BR>home to her daddy, and away from the venomous foster parents who've made her
<BR>into something she's not.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Oh, c'mon. MM's reign as DLOH hasn't been all bad, has
it?</FONT></HTML>

--part1_32.fd21fb2.27a46c38_boundary--
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (abortion_engine)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 13:30:01 2001
From: "Arclight" <arclight@*********.de>
> Von Abortion_Engine :
> >I don't know about that. Let's remember, if we can, that Bug City was
> >written by "a small group of writers," and not by an enourmous crew of
> >freelancers. So was Aztlan, and Tir Tairngire. So was Shadowtech. Books
> >written by a large number of freelancers? Cannon Companion. Man and
Machine.
> >Oh, be still my beating heart. No, really.
>
> Sorry, but AFAIK this was a decision of MikeM, not from the freelancers.
> Besides the layout (=no pics, no shadowtalk) I very much enjoyed the
> SR3-generation books.

I'm not understanding: /what/ was a decision of MM? The "not being very
good?" :) Well, yes. But that's not realy what I was talking about. It's a
stylistic matter of preference; I prefer books written by [good] single
writers to books written by [good] groups. After all, when was the last time
a committee designed anything as well as a single empassioned person?

And if you've enjoyed the 3rd-generation books, then you simply disagree
with me; no problem there. Many people do. Personally, I think pretty much
everything that's come out recently has been of poor quality, or at the very
least, not horribly enjoyable. [Exceptions can easily be made for The Matrix
and MitS; Magic and Matrix books have seldom been "fun." That's not really
what they're there for.]

> >Personally, I hope Wiz goes back to using a small stable of dedicated
> >writers who can each produce excellent work on their own, with only an
> >editor standing in between intent and execution. But that's just me;
Wiz -
> >and all of you - may see it differently.
>
> On the offside, a large team of writers get's you specialists each working
> in their field. With a smaller number, you can get into the "jack of all
> trades, master of none"-field of things.

That certainly is an excellent point. However, I've found that if you simply
get people who are very good at many things, you can avoid that. :)
Certainly, it's much harder, but "easy" is frequently synonomous with "not
very good," also.

> >*shrug* We'll find out sooner or later. I'm just happy that my baby is
going
> >home to her daddy, and away from the venomous foster parents who've made
her
> >into something she's not.
>
> Sorry, but I honestly don't like this paragraph.

The paragraph itself, or the statements it made? Or perhaps the way it was
stated? I do tend to have a problem with all three, frankly; I generally
manage to offend at least one person with at least one of the criteria
above. Well, my apologies. Although the statement is no less true for you
not liking it; I really am quite happy about all of this.
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (abortion_engine)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 13:35:01 2001
From: <DemonPenta@***.com>
> abortion_engine@*******.com writes:
> > *shrug* We'll find out sooner or later. I'm just happy that my baby is
going
> > home to her daddy, and away from the venomous foster parents who've made
her
> > into something she's not.
>
> Oh, c'mon. MM's reign as DLOH hasn't been all bad, has it?
>
*shrug* It depends on who you ask. Many people would say it's been the best
time for Shadowrun ever, although I think fewer people believe that now than
did a year ago.

Personally, I think it has. But then again, I preferred the "reign" of Tom
Dowd, which many people felt was the worst time for Shadowrun ever. To each
their own.
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 13:40:08 2001
--part1_8.f7c4a6d.27a473be_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 01/27/2001 1:52:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
abortion_engine@*******.com writes:


> Personally, I think it has. But then again, I preferred the "reign" of Tom
> Dowd, which many people felt was the worst time for Shadowrun ever. To each
> their own.

Was it cuz you liked munching out and nuking Immortal Elves every week, AE?

--part1_8.f7c4a6d.27a473be_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated
01/27/2001 1:52:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<BR>abortion_engine@*******.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Personally, I think it
has. But then again, I preferred the "reign" of Tom
<BR>Dowd, which many people felt was the worst time for Shadowrun ever. To each
<BR>their own.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Was it cuz you liked munching out and nuking Immortal Elves every week,
AE?</FONT></HTML>

--part1_8.f7c4a6d.27a473be_boundary--
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 13:50:01 2001
Von Abortion_Engine :

<snip>

>I'm not understanding: /what/ was a decision of MM?

Sorry for that. I meant "skipping shadowtalk". Skipping pictures had more
economic reasons IIRC.

> The "not being very
>good?" :) Well, yes. But that's not realy what I was talking about. It's a
>stylistic matter of preference; I prefer books written by [good] single
>writers to books written by [good] groups. After all, when was the last time
>a committee designed anything as well as a single empassioned person?

The german Grundgesetz (constitution) and the Einigungsvertrag (unification
treaty) between FRG and GDR ;)

>And if you've enjoyed the 3rd-generation books, then you simply disagree
>with me; no problem there. Many people do. Personally, I think pretty much
>everything that's come out recently has been of poor quality, or at the very
>least, not horribly enjoyable. [Exceptions can easily be made for The Matrix
>and MitS; Magic and Matrix books have seldom been "fun." That's not really
>what they're there for.]

Well, I have a little advantage here. I bought the german books, with
shadowtalk (written by players) and much more pictures (most weapons in the
german CC have pictures for exampel). Anyway, the actual text was varying
from "nice" to "excellent", IMHO.

<snip>

>That certainly is an excellent point. However, I've found that if you simply
>get people who are very good at many things, you can avoid that. :)
>Certainly, it's much harder, but "easy" is frequently synonomous with
"not
>very good," also.

IMO you have to find a way between "perfect book" and "fast release of the
product". I can live with some minor quirks, needs no real efford to fix it.

<snip>

> > Sorry, but I honestly don't like this paragraph.
>
>The paragraph itself, or the statements it made? Or perhaps the way it was
>stated? I do tend to have a problem with all three, frankly; I generally
>manage to offend at least one person with at least one of the criteria
>above.

Oh, no offense taken. If you had ticked me off, there would be an email
(subject: "flaming inbound" ;) already sitting in your inbox :)

> Well, my apologies. Although the statement is no less true for you
>not liking it; I really am quite happy about all of this.

About what? IMHO, the only thing we _do_ know atm is that everybody is
guessing. What if this was planned a bit longer, and the new owner already
took part in the roadbook for the next three years? And nothing would change?

Arclight
Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (abortion_engine)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 13:50:09 2001
From: <DemonPenta@***.com>
> abortion_engine@*******.com writes:
> > Personally, I think it has. But then again, I preferred the "reign" of
Tom
> > Dowd, which many people felt was the worst time for Shadowrun ever. To
each
> > their own.
>
> Was it cuz you liked munching out and nuking Immortal Elves every week,
AE?

Yes. I'm actually the munchkin-king. I don't give a damn about plot or art
or complexity, what I really like is playing multiple-grade initiates with
"Summon Verjigorm" spells and 300 essence points worth of cyberware. Haven't
you heard? I hate role-playing; bring on the dice, man!

"We represent the munchkin-king, the munchkin-king, the munchkin-king. We
represent the munchkin-king, the munchkin-king, the munchkin-king..."

[This post, in case no-one had guessed, is a lie. An absolute, bald-faced
lie. AE actually has been known to play the Street Kid contact for months at
a time, and generally conducts his sessions without the use of dice or
rulebooks. In actuality, AE thinks that SR3 is /far/ more munchkin-friendly,
since the emphasis is /away/ from plot, from in-world writing and issues,
and toward rules and dice-rolling. But that's boring to tell people! No-one
wants to hear, for the millionth time, how AE is dedicated to plot,
characterisation, and realism. No-one! Not even Doc! So, here, for your
edification, is my lie. I hope you like it.]
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 14:05:08 2001
Von Abortion_Engine :

<snip>

>Yes. I'm actually the munchkin-king. I don't give a damn about plot or art
>or complexity, what I really like is playing multiple-grade initiates with
>"Summon Verjigorm" spells and 300 essence points worth of cyberware. Haven't
>you heard? I hate role-playing; bring on the dice, man!
>
>"We represent the munchkin-king, the munchkin-king, the munchkin-king. We
>represent the munchkin-king, the munchkin-king, the munchkin-king..."

ROFL!!!

Who needs sourcebooks anyway, FoF and SSC only plz ;)

>[This post, in case no-one had guessed, is a lie. An absolute, bald-faced
>lie. AE actually has been known to play the Street Kid contact for months at
>a time, and generally conducts his sessions without the use of dice or
>rulebooks. In actuality, AE thinks that SR3 is /far/ more munchkin-friendly,
>since the emphasis is /away/ from plot, from in-world writing and issues,
>and toward rules and dice-rolling. But that's boring to tell people! No-one
>wants to hear, for the millionth time, how AE is dedicated to plot,
>characterisation, and realism. No-one! Not even Doc! So, here, for your
>edification, is my lie. I hope you like it.]

Arclight
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 14:30:01 2001
>The stylistic unity, and the unity of intent, in books like Bug City is
very
>different from that of, say, Cannon Companion. And again, don't let type
>delude you; see beyond the type of book and look instead at the intent.

Why bother, when you can compare apples to apples instead of oranges? Bug
City vs. Renraku: Arcology Shutdown would have been a much better parallel.
I can't say one is far ahead of the other, quality wise, since I truely
think they are very close, but I do think they were equal in "unity of
intent".

>Personally, I hope Wiz goes back to using a small stable of dedicated
>writers who can each produce excellent work on their own, with only an
>editor standing in between intent and execution. But that's just me; Wiz -
>and all of you - may see it differently.

I do, and not just because I'm one of the small contributors. I think at
some point, the "unity of intent" becomes mental inbreeding, and gives rise
to very inverted, limited plotlines that are not useful to the majority of
players. Raise your hands if you hate imortal elves. Why did so many hands
just go up?

>*shrug* We'll find out sooner or later. I'm just happy that my baby is
going
>home to her daddy, and away from the venomous foster parents who've made
her
>into something she's not.

I don't really have any doubts about Wizkids abilties to find good authors,
either among the linited stable of past developers and contributors or a
wide selection of new ones. If they want, they can have the best of both
worlds. That is, if they can manage to avoid anatagonizing the huge new
section fo fans and contributors FASA has gained in the past couple years
with statments like the one above.

-Sebastian Wiers
Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 14:35:01 2001
At 01:23 PM 1/27/01 EST, DemonPenta wrote:
>In a message dated 01/27/2001 1:12:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>abortion_engine@*******.com writes:
>
>
>*shrug* We'll find out sooner or later. I'm just happy that my baby is going
>home to her daddy, and away from the venomous foster parents who've made her
>into something she's not.
>
>
>Oh, c'mon. MM's reign as DLOH hasn't been all bad, has it?

Actually, in my opinion, it was. I didn't like his de-emphasis on magic,
and emphasis on tech. If I wanted that, I would play CP2020. I also
didn't like the like of pictures and shadowtalk, and what pictures there
were being comic book style. Not that everyone agrees with me, of course,
thats just my opinion.

Also, DemonPenta, could you please, please, please, please, please stop
sending HTML formatted emails?


Dave
Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Alfredo B Alves)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 14:40:01 2001
On Sat, 27 Jan 2001 13:44:33 -0500 "abortion_engine"
<abortion_engine@*******.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> Well, my apologies. Although the statement is no less true
> for you
> not liking it; I really am quite happy about all of this.

I'm sure that the folks at FASA would love to hear you joy over their
misfortune ...

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (J. Keith Henry)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 15:45:01 2001
From: "abortion_engine" <abortion_engine@*******.com>
Subject: Re: WTF???????


> *shrug* We'll find out sooner or later. I'm just happy that my baby is
going
> home to her daddy, and away from the venomous foster parents who've made
her
> into something she's not.

(*laughs and laughs and laughs*)
Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bull)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 15:45:08 2001
At 11:45 AM 1/27/01 -0800, you wrote:

>Actually, in my opinion, it was. I didn't like his de-emphasis on magic,
>and emphasis on tech.

Shame you didn't see YOTC then. Much more magic than tech there.

The shift in plot lines was more a result of the fact that, at the times,
most fans were tired of magic as a focus for everything. Those of you who
were on the list 5 years ago remember what I'm talking about. Almost every
simngle person was sick of IE, Horrors, and the rest in Shadowrun.

And sales drastically effected that.

So they shifted away for a while. SOme stuff has still had magic as it's
focus. The whole Dunklezahn thing was more magic than not.

And remember, because of the 3rd Edition update books, there's been less
"plot stuff" the last couple years than normal. It sucks that FASA goes
away NOW, because a LOT of that was changing. Hell, I think we had what,
3-4 Plot/Storyline/Setting books coming out, 3 Place/Target books, and 3
adventure sets coming out over the next year, compared to 1 or 2 rulebooks...


> I also
>didn't like the like of pictures and shadowtalk, and what pictures there
>were being comic book style. Not that everyone agrees with me, of course,
>thats just my opinion.

I agree for the most part about the art. But arts a stylistic thing,
really. I miss Laubenstein, myself, but...

Anyways, just so you know, Mike was planning to listen about the Shadowtalk
stuff to some extent. SOTA was going to be an "in character" book, rather
than a straight rulebook.

<shurg>

Bull
Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 16:00:01 2001
Von Bull :

<snip>

>Anyways, just so you know, Mike was planning to listen about the
>Shadowtalk stuff to some extent. SOTA was going to be an "in character"
>book, rather than a straight rulebook.

I heard about it too. Parts of the art for "Arsenal 2060" (german CC) was
considered for the first SOTA book or something like that... ah well...

Arclight
Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (abortion_engine)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 17:35:01 2001
From: "Arclight" <arclight@*********.de>
> Von Abortion_Engine :
> <snip>
> >I'm not understanding: /what/ was a decision of MM?
>
> Sorry for that. I meant "skipping shadowtalk". Skipping pictures had more
> economic reasons IIRC.

Ah, yes. Agreed, although that's not the /only/ problem I had with recent
books. But yes, your point is valid.

> > The "not being very
> >good?" :) Well, yes. But that's not realy what I was talking about. It's
a
> >stylistic matter of preference; I prefer books written by [good] single
> >writers to books written by [good] groups. After all, when was the last
time
> >a committee designed anything as well as a single empassioned person?
>
> The german Grundgesetz (constitution) and the Einigungsvertrag
(unification
> treaty) between FRG and GDR ;)

Agreed. :) [But we must both admit that's an exception. After all, it's
/Germany./ What don't you do well?]

> >And if you've enjoyed the 3rd-generation books, then you simply disagree
> >with me; no problem there. Many people do. Personally, I think pretty
much
> >everything that's come out recently has been of poor quality, or at the
very
> >least, not horribly enjoyable. [Exceptions can easily be made for The
Matrix
> >and MitS; Magic and Matrix books have seldom been "fun." That's not
really
> >what they're there for.]
>
> Well, I have a little advantage here. I bought the german books, with
> shadowtalk (written by players) and much more pictures (most weapons in
the
> german CC have pictures for exampel). Anyway, the actual text was varying
> from "nice" to "excellent", IMHO.

The German FanPro versions are radically different, that is true. I'm still
waiting for my copy of Arsenal 2060, but I've seen a copy one of my players
owns, and it is, I agree, superior.

> <snip>
> > Well, my apologies. Although the statement is no less true for you
> >not liking it; I really am quite happy about all of this.
>
> About what? IMHO, the only thing we _do_ know atm is that everybody is
> guessing. What if this was planned a bit longer, and the new owner already
> took part in the roadbook for the next three years? And nothing would
change?

And you have the crux of the issue; FASA could get better, or could get
worse. But it is almost certain - and this is what pleases me - that it will
be different. That's all I'm asking for; hope.
Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (abortion_engine)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 17:45:05 2001
From: "Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*****.com>
> >The stylistic unity, and the unity of intent, in books like Bug City is
> very
> >different from that of, say, Cannon Companion. And again, don't let type
> >delude you; see beyond the type of book and look instead at the intent.
>
> Why bother, when you can compare apples to apples instead of oranges? Bug
> City vs. Renraku: Arcology Shutdown would have been a much better
parallel.
> I can't say one is far ahead of the other, quality wise, since I truely
> think they are very close, but I do think they were equal in "unity of
> intent".

I had certainly thought of that example, but that was hardly written by as
large a group of people as Man & Machine, for example. What percentage of
the work would you say two people - you and the esteemed Mr. Boyle - did on
that project? And, still, if I may risk offense, I would say that between
Bug City and RA:S, there is absolutely no comparison.

> >Personally, I hope Wiz goes back to using a small stable of dedicated
> >writers who can each produce excellent work on their own, with only an
> >editor standing in between intent and execution. But that's just me;
Wiz -
> >and all of you - may see it differently.
>
> I do, and not just because I'm one of the small contributors. I think at
> some point, the "unity of intent" becomes mental inbreeding, and gives
rise
> to very inverted, limited plotlines that are not useful to the majority of
> players. Raise your hands if you hate imortal elves. Why did so many
hands
> just go up?

And I say, "Raise your hands if you hate AIs." But the people who'd agree
with me are primarily not on this list, so I defer this point to you.
However, I found it easy to simply "play under" those plots when necessary;
I don't know why everyone else had such a problem with it. But perhaps, in
that regard, at least, I am exceptional. Somehow, though, I doubt it.

And it isn't as if both types of plotlines didn't co-exist, as well you
know. What FASA has done, recently, is go from 60% "big plot" and 40%
"small
plot" [or insert your own percentages here] to 100% small plot. And by
"small plot," I don't mean to leave out items like RA:S; I simply mean
non-time- and -globe-spanning issues like IEs and ED ties. Well, that's nice
for those of you who like the mundane plots, but those of us who liked the
uberplots are left somewhat in the cold, neh? Wouldn't it have been better
to simply average the plots?

Again, this is all in the realm of opinion, personal and popular. And I know
I'm very much in the minority, thankyouverymuch for pointing it out, again,
Mongoose. But, as I've said, oh, at least once or twice, it's nice when the
minority gets at least a little of what it wants.

> >*shrug* We'll find out sooner or later. I'm just happy that my baby is
> going
> >home to her daddy, and away from the venomous foster parents who've made
> her
> >into something she's not.
>
> I don't really have any doubts about Wizkids abilties to find good
authors,
> either among the linited stable of past developers and contributors or a
> wide selection of new ones. If they want, they can have the best of both
> worlds. That is, if they can manage to avoid anatagonizing the huge new
> section fo fans and contributors FASA has gained in the past couple years
> with statments like the one above.

Oh, I think they can manage it. I don't think /I/ can, but my lack of
restraint is legendary.

Don't worry about antagonism, Mongoose. I'm certain the people at Wizkids
aren't the jerks that you think I am.
Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (abortion_engine)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 17:45:21 2001
From: "Alfredo B Alves" <dghost@****.com>
> <abortion_engine@*******.com> writes:
> <SNIP>
> > Well, my apologies. Although the statement is no less true
> > for you
> > not liking it; I really am quite happy about all of this.
>
> I'm sure that the folks at FASA would love to hear you joy over their
> misfortune ...

I bet they don't care. And if they do, my most sincere apologies. But I will
say this: I've been in positions myself where people were happy about things
I was sad about, and I dealt with it. I bear no ill will - all levity aside
for the moment - to those at FASA. I am simply happy about the new chance
this game has been given. And if that angers you, honestly, I am bothered
not in the least.
Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (abortion_engine)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 17:50:01 2001
From: "Bull" <bull@***********.com>
> At 11:45 AM 1/27/01 -0800, you wrote:
> So they shifted away for a while. SOme stuff has still had magic as it's
> focus. The whole Dunklezahn thing was more magic than not.

Everything you said was valid, Bull, except this. True, the entire issue
revolved around magic, but it did so as the /end/ of all those plots
everyone was sick of. Dunklezahn's death wasn't just his own; it was the end
of the uberplots involving IEs, ED, and everything else of their ilk. So
this example, I think, is a less-than-good one. But your others are, indeed,
perfectly valid.

> Anyways, just so you know, Mike was planning to listen about the
Shadowtalk
> stuff to some extent. SOTA was going to be an "in character" book, rather
> than a straight rulebook.

One other point: for those of us who like shadowtalk, who, indeed, feel that
it's one of the most important things about the game - establishing setting,
etc. - limiting its use to one type of book is annoying, at best. But, as
usual, others don't feel the same. *shrug*

I'm getting a lot of mileage out of shrugging and saying, "Eh, it's an issue
of personal opinion," today, aren't I? Huh.
Message no. 29
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 17:55:01 2001
Von Abortion_Engine:

<snip>

>Agreed. :) [But we must both admit that's an exception. After all, it's
>/Germany./ What don't you do well?]

Making jokes ;)

<snip>

>The German FanPro versions are radically different, that is true. I'm still
>waiting for my copy of Arsenal 2060, but I've seen a copy one of my players
>owns, and it is, I agree, superior.

Parts of the artwork are really great, yes. Other parts just s#ck. Please
let me know what you think about the Shadowtalk when you got your copy ok?

<snip>

>And you have the crux of the issue; FASA could get better, or could get
>worse. But it is almost certain - and this is what pleases me - that it will
>be different. That's all I'm asking for; hope.

Never heard of someone so ...frustrated on the recent development I guess...

Arclight
Message no. 30
From: shadowrn@*********.com (abortion_engine)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 18:05:01 2001
From: "Arclight" <arclight@*********.de>
> Von Abortion_Engine:
> <snip>
> >Agreed. :) [But we must both admit that's an exception. After all, it's
> >/Germany./ What don't you do well?]
>
> Making jokes ;)

Agreed. :)

> <snip>
> >The German FanPro versions are radically different, that is true. I'm
still
> >waiting for my copy of Arsenal 2060, but I've seen a copy one of my
players
> >owns, and it is, I agree, superior.
>
> Parts of the artwork are really great, yes. Other parts just s#ck. Please
> let me know what you think about the Shadowtalk when you got your copy ok?

I certainly will. Probably loudly, knowing me. :)
Message no. 31
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 18:20:02 2001
Von Abortion_Engine :

<snip>

> > >Agreed. :) [But we must both admit that's an exception. After all, it's
> > >/Germany./ What don't you do well?]
> >
> > Making jokes ;)
>
>Agreed. :)

hehe

[Arsenal 2060]

> > Parts of the artwork are really great, yes. Other parts just s#ck. Please
> > let me know what you think about the Shadowtalk when you got your copy ok?
>
>I certainly will. Probably loudly, knowing me. :)

Thanks in advance

Arclight
Message no. 32
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 19:40:01 2001
On Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:01:15 -0600 Bull <bull@***********.com> writes:
> > I also
> >didn't like the like of pictures and shadowtalk, and what pictures
> there
> >were being comic book style. Not that everyone agrees with me, of
> course,
> >thats just my opinion.
>
> I agree for the most part about the art. But arts a stylistic
> thing,
> really. I miss Laubenstein, myself, but...
>

I couldn't stand Laubenstein's bubble people :-)
I thought it a great sign that they asked about art on the dumpshock
forums.

> Anyways, just so you know, Mike was planning to listen about the
> Shadowtalk
> stuff to some extent. SOTA was going to be an "in character" book,
> rather
> than a straight rulebook.
>

Well, half and half. The rules with the rules, the IC stuff with the IC
stuff. All in all, it woulda been nice.
I'd like to see a breakdown of the feedback he actually got from the
"what do you want in SOTA" postings.

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 33
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 19:40:10 2001
On Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:01:15 -0600 Bull <bull@***********.com> writes:
> > I also
> >didn't like the like of pictures and shadowtalk, and what pictures
> there
> >were being comic book style. Not that everyone agrees with me, of
> course,
> >thats just my opinion.
>
> I agree for the most part about the art. But arts a stylistic
> thing,
> really. I miss Laubenstein, myself, but...
>

I couldn't stand Laubenstein's bubble people :-)
I thought it a great sign that they asked about art on the dumpshock
forums.

> Anyways, just so you know, Mike was planning to listen about the
> Shadowtalk
> stuff to some extent. SOTA was going to be an "in character" book,
> rather
> than a straight rulebook.
>

Well, half and half. The rules with the rules, the IC stuff with the IC
stuff. All in all, it woulda been nice.
I'd like to see a breakdown of the feedback he actually got from the
"what do you want in SOTA" postings.

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 34
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 19:40:22 2001
On Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:06:02 -0500 "abortion_engine"
<abortion_engine@*******.com> writes:
> One other point: for those of us who like shadowtalk, who, indeed,
> feel that
> it's one of the most important things about the game - establishing
> setting,
> etc. - limiting its use to one type of book is annoying, at best.
> But, as
> usual, others don't feel the same. *shrug*
>

But, as a for instance, Grimoire and Grimoire II, plus Awakening. The
shadowtalk IC stuff was limited, the OOC stuff was much better at
conveying the information.
The main thing is that the "gear" books became "rule books" and
shifted
to OOC. I do think it makes them clearer, though I like the old style as
well. But, then, I can enjoy both styles, I don't think either one makes
the other "wrong" just because I like it.

> I'm getting a lot of mileage out of shrugging and saying, "Eh, it's
> an issue
> of personal opinion," today, aren't I? Huh.
>

"it's personal preference" is the line I use, around 80 times a day....
shrugging is good too, the lazy man's exercise? :-)

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 35
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 19:40:35 2001
On Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:06:02 -0500 "abortion_engine"
<abortion_engine@*******.com> writes:
> One other point: for those of us who like shadowtalk, who, indeed,
> feel that
> it's one of the most important things about the game - establishing
> setting,
> etc. - limiting its use to one type of book is annoying, at best.
> But, as
> usual, others don't feel the same. *shrug*
>

But, as a for instance, Grimoire and Grimoire II, plus Awakening. The
shadowtalk IC stuff was limited, the OOC stuff was much better at
conveying the information.
The main thing is that the "gear" books became "rule books" and
shifted
to OOC. I do think it makes them clearer, though I like the old style as
well. But, then, I can enjoy both styles, I don't think either one makes
the other "wrong" just because I like it.

> I'm getting a lot of mileage out of shrugging and saying, "Eh, it's
> an issue
> of personal opinion," today, aren't I? Huh.
>

"it's personal preference" is the line I use, around 80 times a day....
shrugging is good too, the lazy man's exercise? :-)

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 36
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 19:40:46 2001
On Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:58:35 -0500 "abortion_engine"
<abortion_engine@*******.com> writes:
> And it isn't as if both types of plotlines didn't co-exist, as well
> you
> know. What FASA has done, recently, is go from 60% "big plot" and
> 40% "small
> plot" [or insert your own percentages here] to 100% small plot. And
> by
> "small plot," I don't mean to leave out items like RA:S; I simply
> mean
> non-time- and -globe-spanning issues like IEs and ED ties. Well,
> that's nice
> for those of you who like the mundane plots, but those of us who
> liked the
> uberplots are left somewhat in the cold, neh? Wouldn't it have been
> better
> to simply average the plots?
>

I personally didn't hate the IE's, but, I find it easier to add the
Horrors and Cthulhu to my game, than it is to subtract such element's.
(yeah, sure, I'm the master of my game, but I buy the product's because
of the evolving storyline's, so I'd like to use them :-)
I actually don't like the world-spanning stuff for that reason.

> Again, this is all in the realm of opinion, personal and popular.
> And I know
> I'm very much in the minority, thankyouverymuch for pointing it out,
> again,
> Mongoose. But, as I've said, oh, at least once or twice, it's nice
> when the
> minority gets at least a little of what it wants.
>

I'm one of the ones that think Mike Stackpole's writing sucked, so I know
your feeling. (Not here really, but the btech newsgroup's have their
Stackpole is God crowd, and they're not as polite as YOU with
argueing.... :-)

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 37
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 19:40:56 2001
On Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:58:35 -0500 "abortion_engine"
<abortion_engine@*******.com> writes:
> And it isn't as if both types of plotlines didn't co-exist, as well
> you
> know. What FASA has done, recently, is go from 60% "big plot" and
> 40% "small
> plot" [or insert your own percentages here] to 100% small plot. And
> by
> "small plot," I don't mean to leave out items like RA:S; I simply
> mean
> non-time- and -globe-spanning issues like IEs and ED ties. Well,
> that's nice
> for those of you who like the mundane plots, but those of us who
> liked the
> uberplots are left somewhat in the cold, neh? Wouldn't it have been
> better
> to simply average the plots?
>

I personally didn't hate the IE's, but, I find it easier to add the
Horrors and Cthulhu to my game, than it is to subtract such element's.
(yeah, sure, I'm the master of my game, but I buy the product's because
of the evolving storyline's, so I'd like to use them :-)
I actually don't like the world-spanning stuff for that reason.

> Again, this is all in the realm of opinion, personal and popular.
> And I know
> I'm very much in the minority, thankyouverymuch for pointing it out,
> again,
> Mongoose. But, as I've said, oh, at least once or twice, it's nice
> when the
> minority gets at least a little of what it wants.
>

I'm one of the ones that think Mike Stackpole's writing sucked, so I know
your feeling. (Not here really, but the btech newsgroup's have their
Stackpole is God crowd, and they're not as polite as YOU with
argueing.... :-)

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 38
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Jan 27 21:40:01 2001
Von Abortion_Engine :

<snip>

>And I say, "Raise your hands if you hate AIs." But the people who'd agree
>with me are primarily not on this list, so I defer this point to you.

Yeah, but this seems to be out of principle reasons, not because you had to
deal with it in a load of sourcebooks. The Harlequin adventure is *how*
old? And are there as many people that at first loved AIs, but now hate
them as this is the case with those IE? I like Harlequin and the related
story, but then it degenerated into a situation that almost made IE turn on
the sun each morning...

>However, I found it easy to simply "play under" those plots when necessary;
>I don't know why everyone else had such a problem with it. But perhaps, in
>that regard, at least, I am exceptional. Somehow, though, I doubt it.

And is it you or is it the stuff FASA put out? Does the release of a new
BBB makes the game-world turn bad? Plots != Rulesstuff ... Especially for
someone playing diceless.

>And it isn't as if both types of plotlines didn't co-exist, as well you
>know. What FASA has done, recently, is go from 60% "big plot" and 40%
"small
>plot" [or insert your own percentages here] to 100% small plot. And by
>"small plot," I don't mean to leave out items like RA:S; I simply mean
>non-time- and -globe-spanning issues like IEs and ED ties. Well, that's nice
>for those of you who like the mundane plots, but those of us who liked the
>uberplots are left somewhat in the cold, neh? Wouldn't it have been better
>to simply average the plots?

Big eight turning into big "how much are they today"? Magic-wise, sure, not
many things went into this direction, but magic in the sr-world is rather
under-developed. Even with every third runner or so playing a mage ;)

>Again, this is all in the realm of opinion, personal and popular. And I know
>I'm very much in the minority, thankyouverymuch for pointing it out, again,
>Mongoose. But, as I've said, oh, at least once or twice, it's nice when the
>minority gets at least a little of what it wants.

I don't get anything more for the mercenary-plot within FoF ... but I can
see why they don't publish more stuff in that direction. It's about sales.

Arclight
Message no. 39
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Mon Jan 29 23:45:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> *shrug* We'll find out sooner or later. I'm just
happy that my baby is going home to her daddy, and
away from the venomous foster parents who've made her
into something she's not.

Oh...my...gawd...

IT RETURNS!!!!

Hi, ae. :)

Oh, and hi 'gain, Boonie. ;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Message no. 40
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Tue Jan 30 00:00:01 2001
>> *shrug* We'll find out sooner or later. I'm just happy that my
baby is going home to her daddy, and away from the venomous foster
parents who've made her into something she's not.

> Oh...my...gawd...
>
> IT RETURNS!!!!
>
> Hi, ae. :)
>
> Oh, and hi 'gain, Boonie. ;)

Oh, and hi again, Doc'. Long time no see :D

====-Boondocker

__________________________________________________
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Message no. 41
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Mike and Jill Johnson)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Tue Jan 30 02:25:00 2001
At 11:14 AM 1/26/01 +0100, you wrote:

>Since Wizkids (with the "ex-FASA person" Jordan Weisman, of BattleTech
>fame) is going to take over the line, at least we'll still have Shadowrun.
>I just hope they keep working with the current large number of
>freelancers, and not go back to the days of a small group of writers...

Not wanting to start anything fears or anything. But, wasn't Jordan Weisman
one of the originators of the Horrors/Immortal elf plotlines?

Mike
Message no. 42
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bull)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Tue Jan 30 08:30:01 2001
At 12:48 AM 1/30/01 -0700, you wrote:
>At 11:14 AM 1/26/01 +0100, you wrote:
>
>>Since Wizkids (with the "ex-FASA person" Jordan Weisman, of BattleTech
>>fame) is going to take over the line, at least we'll still have Shadowrun.
>>I just hope they keep working with the current large number of
>>freelancers, and not go back to the days of a small group of writers...
>
>Not wanting to start anything fears or anything. But, wasn't Jordan
>Weisman one of the originators of the Horrors/Immortal elf plotlines?

Not really... I don;t believe Jordan really had a whole lot of direct
input on the game outside of doing some of the original brainstorming on
the creative end. Jordan's always been more of the corporate boss type...

Bull
Message no. 43
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Brother Justice)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Tue Jan 30 08:45:01 2001
>From: Mike and Jill Johnson <shadowrn@******.net>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: shadowrn@*********.com
>Subject: Re: WTF???????
>Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 00:48:15 -0700

>Not wanting to start anything fears or anything. But, wasn't Jordan Weisman
>one of the originators of the Horrors/Immortal elf plotlines?
>
>Mike

Fear? FEAR? I was literally skipping around in delight for that very reason.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Message no. 44
From: shadowrn@*********.com (TexasFriedCriminal)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Tue Jan 30 08:55:01 2001
From: Brother Justice
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 2:59 PM

> >Not wanting to start anything fears or anything. But, wasn't
> Jordan Weisman
> >one of the originators of the Horrors/Immortal elf plotlines?
> >
> >Mike
>
> Fear? FEAR? I was literally skipping around in delight for that
> very reason.

then I`d fear for your sanity as well as for the future

that was IMHO the worst crap ever to come from fasa

damnit, this is nether dungeons and dragons nor vampire

while it was only hinted at, it was great, it created suspense and mystery
but the revealation was _so_ bad...

-- ^/_Texas - Fried - Criminal_\^ --
* you want fries with that ? *
----------------------------------------
To participate, therefore, in this
disembodied enactment of life's most
body-centered activity is to risk the
realization that when it comes to sex,
perhaps the body in question is not
the physical one at all, but its psychic
double, the bodylike self-representation
we carry around in our heads...
----------------------------------------
Message no. 45
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Tue Jan 30 09:10:03 2001
At 03:07 PM 1/30/01 +0100, TFC wrote:
> From: Brother Justice
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 2:59 PM
>
>> >Not wanting to start anything fears or anything. But, wasn't
>> Jordan Weisman
>> >one of the originators of the Horrors/Immortal elf plotlines?
>> >
>> >Mike
>>
>> Fear? FEAR? I was literally skipping around in delight for that
>> very reason.
>
>then I`d fear for your sanity as well as for the future
>
>that was IMHO the worst crap ever to come from fasa
>
>damnit, this is nether dungeons and dragons nor vampire
>
>while it was only hinted at, it was great, it created suspense and mystery
>but the revealation was _so_ bad...

Well, despite what some people think, AE and BJ are not the only people who
liked the Immortal Elves/Horrors plotline. Sure, they were getting a bit
over emphasized, but I would like to see them back myself.

Dave
Message no. 46
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Adam J)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Tue Jan 30 09:15:01 2001
At 06:21 30/01/2001 -0800, caelric@****.com wrote:

>Well, despite what some people think, AE and BJ are not the only people who
>liked the Immortal Elves/Horrors plotline. Sure, they were getting a bit
>over emphasized, but I would like to see them back myself.

<trite> Balance in everything. </trite>

Adam
--
< http://tss.dumpshock.com : http://www.jillted.org >
< adamj@*********.com | ICQ# 2350330 | TSS Productions >
Message no. 47
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Brother Justice)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Tue Jan 30 09:30:02 2001
>From: Texas-Fried-Criminal@********.de (TexasFriedCriminal)
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
>Subject: RE: WTF???????
>Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 15:07:55 +0100

>then I`d fear for your sanity as well as for the future
>
>that was IMHO the worst crap ever to come from fasa
>
>damnit, this is nether dungeons and dragons nor vampire
>
>while it was only hinted at, it was great, it created suspense and mystery
>but the revealation was _so_ bad...

Well, I did not say that I liked the revelation, now did I? I simply said
that I liked the Immortal Elf storylines, and all the wonderful tie-ins it
held for Shadowrun and Earthdawn. I'll be the first to agree that it became
far too overemphasized. Now however, the game world feels so empty. A bit
like playing Cyberpunk, actually. All tech, and no mystery. I'll simply
ignore the Dungeon and Dragons comment, since it has little relevance at
best. But to each their own I guess. It's kind of fun getting to act like
the minority for a change and cry "DISCRIMINATION AND OPPRESION!" Now I
truly feel like an American. ;)
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Message no. 48
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan Choy)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Tue Jan 30 09:40:03 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brother Justice" <brother_justice@*******.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: 30 January 2001 8:59 AM
Subject: Re: WTF???????


> >From: Mike and Jill Johnson <shadowrn@******.net>
> >Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
> >To: shadowrn@*********.com
> >Subject: Re: WTF???????
> >Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 00:48:15 -0700
>
> >Not wanting to start anything fears or anything. But, wasn't Jordan
Weisman
> >one of the originators of the Horrors/Immortal elf plotlines?
> >
> >Mike
>
Much as Drew hates them, I _liked_ the Horrors/IE plotline - I'm just
cheesed that it was resolved so neatly by the Dragonheart story arc. :P

Tetsujin no Oni
who thinks that there's nothing to make a big physad realize how big they're
not when they run into a Horror that is 3 or more 'sota' ahead of them....
Message no. 49
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Alfredo B Alves)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Tue Jan 30 09:45:01 2001
On Tue, 30 Jan 2001 06:21:10 -0800 caelric@****.com writes:
<SNIP>
> Well, despite what some people think, AE and BJ are not the only
> people who
> liked the Immortal Elves/Horrors plotline. Sure, they were getting
> a bit
> over emphasized, but I would like to see them back myself.

I don't see that as being that likely. Although Earthdawn is comprised of
expanded upon elements of Shadowrun, Earthdawn, as I understand it, is no
longer "in the same house" as Shadowrun and so it seems likely that
connections between the two will be fazed out or left alone rather than
emphasized.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 50
From: shadowrn@*********.com (TexasFriedCriminal)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Tue Jan 30 09:45:18 2001
From: Brother Justice
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 3:47 PM

> Well, I did not say that I liked the revelation, now did I? I simply said
> that I liked the Immortal Elf storylines, and all the wonderful
> tie-ins it
> held for Shadowrun and Earthdawn. I'll be the first to agree that
> it became
> far too overemphasized. Now however, the game world feels so empty. A bit
> like playing Cyberpunk, actually. All tech, and no mystery. I'll simply
> ignore the Dungeon and Dragons comment, since it has little relevance at
> best. But to each their own I guess. It's kind of fun getting to act like
> the minority for a change and cry "DISCRIMINATION AND OPPRESION!" Now I
> truly feel like an American. ;)

;)

well maybe I overreacted a bit

d&d in regard to "the horrors are evil, and we must save the world" I really
hated that aproach, IMHO it doesn't fit the sr flair at all...

while the thought that there might be immortal elves who have for centuries
manipulated the world is quite creepy, bringing in the horrors as the _true
evil_ and letting them old immortals play hero slightly killed that image.

up until the atzlan sb everything was just right... but then harlequin's
back sucked bad, even though as an adventure I liked it, being a very
interesting example of a metaquest, _if_ it weren't for that big heroic
ending... and I won't even start talking about the books ( in german they
are called dracheherz trilogie, so I guess it's dragonheart in english, but
translators can never be trusted, so I am unsure), and the great ryan"i'm a
little dragon now, but I still sleep with nadja daviar" mercury.....

that's ok in high fantasy, it's ok in d&d, but it doesn't belong into sr...

I hope that made my opinion clear.

-- ^/_Texas - Fried - Criminal_\^ --
* you want fries with that ? *
----------------------------------------
To participate, therefore, in this
disembodied enactment of life's most
body-centered activity is to risk the
realization that when it comes to sex,
perhaps the body in question is not
the physical one at all, but its psychic
double, the bodylike self-representation
we carry around in our heads...
----------------------------------------
Message no. 51
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Brother Justice)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Tue Jan 30 10:05:00 2001
>From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: shadowrn@*********.com
>Subject: Re: WTF???????
>Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:06:29 -0600

>I don't see that as being that likely. Although Earthdawn is comprised of
>expanded upon elements of Shadowrun, Earthdawn, as I understand it, is no
>longer "in the same house" as Shadowrun and so it seems likely that
>connections between the two will be fazed out or left alone rather than
>emphasized.
>
>--
>D. Ghost
>Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
>- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

I don't really care about emphasized or not. If I were to run a game again,
I can emphasize them myself quite well. I'm just tired of seeing horribly
sloppy cleanups to a problem that wasn't that extensive, and denial in core
products. Emphasize them or don't, fine. Just don't try and treat the fan
base as idiots and work up very lame resolutions to a good storyline in some
failed attempt to deny that such a storyline ever existed.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Message no. 52
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Brother Justice)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Tue Jan 30 10:15:01 2001
>From: Texas-Fried-Criminal@********.de (TexasFriedCriminal)
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
>Subject: RE: WTF???????
>Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 16:00:16 +0100

>d&d in regard to "the horrors are evil, and we must save the world" I
>really
>hated that aproach, IMHO it doesn't fit the sr flair at all...

Well, I never found the canon material to emphasize that kind of blatant
black and white, especially relating to the Horrors. Anything that black and
white is foolish, though I'd disagree with even stereotyping D&D in that
vein. But that's neither here nor there.

>while the thought that there might be immortal elves who have for centuries
>manipulated the world is quite creepy, bringing in the horrors as the _true
>evil_ and letting them old immortals play hero slightly killed that image.

Again, I didn't really notice things that blatant, even in Harlequin's Back.
That's the only example in canon sourcebooks (excluding the novels, as
regardless of what FASA said, I never used the novels as canon material,
throwing nearly all of them out the window frankly) that I can think of the
hero syndrome you describe. Everything else always seemed to be mysterious
and in the background, save for Leonardo. And don't try and blame that gross
error on the Immortal Elf storyline. Blame that monstrousity on the Terrible
Twins.

>up until the atzlan sb everything was just right... but then harlequin's
>back sucked bad, even though as an adventure I liked it, being a very
>interesting example of a metaquest, _if_ it weren't for that big heroic
>ending... and I won't even start talking about the books ( in german they
>are called dracheherz trilogie, so I guess it's dragonheart in english, but
>translators can never be trusted, so I am unsure), and the great ryan"i'm a
>little dragon now, but I still sleep with nadja daviar" mercury.....

Yes, it's called the Dragonheart trilogy. And don't make the mistake FASA
made and accept that as canon. It was the absolute lowest I've ever seen
Shadowrun storylines sink to. It's a shame for Mr. Koke, considering Dead
Air was such a phenomenal nove.

>that's ok in high fantasy, it's ok in d&d, but it doesn't belong into sr...
>
>I hope that made my opinion clear.

And I would agree with you, if I saw the Immortal Elf storyline being that
overwhelming. Much of the crowd around here seems to think it was, but I
personally never felt that way. I always thought it was a little blown out
of proportion by the fans of exactly how extensive that storyline was, but
that's not exactly a popular opinion around here. But please, stop
automatically associating D&D with epic high fantasy. Those of us who run
respectable games in that system are getting bad names. ;)

> -- ^/_Texas - Fried - Criminal_\^ --
> * you want fries with that ? *
>----------------------------------------
>To participate, therefore, in this
>disembodied enactment of life's most
>body-centered activity is to risk the
>realization that when it comes to sex,
>perhaps the body in question is not
>the physical one at all, but its psychic
>double, the bodylike self-representation
>we carry around in our heads...
>----------------------------------------
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Message no. 53
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Brother Justice)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Tue Jan 30 10:20:02 2001
>From: "Jonathan Choy" <jjchoy@*********.net>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
>Subject: Re: WTF???????
>Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:04:29 -0500

>Much as Drew hates them, I _liked_ the Horrors/IE plotline - I'm just
>cheesed that it was resolved so neatly by the Dragonheart story arc. :P

Neatly? I wouldn't call it that. I'd call it a horribly written, cheap
resolution to an amazing opportunity.

>Tetsujin no Oni
>who thinks that there's nothing to make a big physad realize how big
>they're
>not when they run into a Horror that is 3 or more 'sota' ahead of them....

Ah! So we're not alone! :) And yes, it's such a joy to see the look on the
player's face when he/she first realizes exactly what they are up against. A
classic GM moment to savor for all time. ;)
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Message no. 54
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan Choy)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Tue Jan 30 10:35:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brother Justice" <brother_justice@*******.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: 30 January 2001 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: WTF???????


> >From: "Jonathan Choy" <jjchoy@*********.net>
> >Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
> >To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
> >Subject: Re: WTF???????
> >Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:04:29 -0500
>
> >Much as Drew hates them, I _liked_ the Horrors/IE plotline - I'm just
> >cheesed that it was resolved so neatly by the Dragonheart story arc. :P
>
> Neatly? I wouldn't call it that. I'd call it a horribly written, cheap
> resolution to an amazing opportunity.
>
Sorry, i forgot some punctuation - 'Neatly' - as in 'we don't have to deal
with THIS load of tripe anymore, thank god, the players will thank us for
this really...' neatly, not 'neatly' as in , "That was a neat story"....

As for horribly written - I've seen worse. Not in the SR line (1), but I"ve
seen much worse. I actually kind of enjoyed it - as you'd see if you looked
back on my comments on the last page Koke wrote in said trilogy... Positing
_having_ to off the horrors story arc, they at least dealt with it in a
(somewhat) epic fashion, rather than just dropping it on the floor like a
router with a bad packet...

(1) I'm not current on SR novels - the last things I read before Dragonheart
were Burning Bright and Wolf and Raven. Wolf and Raven was Simply Stackpole
*grin*, and Burning Bright was still in the age of the man whose memory
Mulvihill massacres every time there's a book without shadowtalk anywhere
between its covers. I started reading Technobabel or whatever the hell it is
and haven't been able to bring myself to finish reading it... *shudder*

Tetsujin no Oni
Jonathan Choy
'Of course I feel dirty... I'm planning on bringing the Shadowlands to
Shadowrun... and the Horrors may want your name....'
Message no. 55
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Strago)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Tue Jan 30 10:45:01 2001
Brother Justice wrote:

> <SNIP>
> <SNIP>
> >while the thought that there might be immortal elves who have for centuries
> >manipulated the world is quite creepy, bringing in the horrors as the _true
> >evil_ and letting them old immortals play hero slightly killed that image.
> Again, I didn't really notice things that blatant, even in Harlequin's Back.
> That's the only example in canon sourcebooks (excluding the novels, as
> regardless of what FASA said, I never used the novels as canon material,

> throwing nearly all of them out the window frankly) that I can think of the
> hero syndrome you describe. Everything else always seemed to be mysterious
> and in the background, save for Leonardo. And don't try and blame that gross
> error on the Immortal Elf storyline. Blame that monstrousity on the Terrible
> Twins.

I agree with Texas Fried Criminal (funny name that, is it supposed to be
satirical?) that the IE storyline would have been much better if it was just
"immortal guys who run things behind the scene" (kinda like the Masons) without
the "oh we're really powerful but we still need help from the PCs to save the
world from the evil nasties."
<SNIP>
--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+)
gm+ M P
Message no. 56
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Brother Justice)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Tue Jan 30 11:00:01 2001
>From: Strago <strago@***.com>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: shadowrn@*********.com
>Subject: Re: WTF???????
>Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:57:06 -0500

>I agree with Texas Fried Criminal (funny name that, is it supposed to be
>satirical?) that the IE storyline would have been much better if it was
>just
>"immortal guys who run things behind the scene" (kinda like the Masons)
>without
>the "oh we're really powerful but we still need help from the PCs to save
>the
>world from the evil nasties."
><SNIP>
>--
>--Strago

And there's an example of that exaggeration I was talking about. One
adventure is most definitely not even close to the "Immortal Elf" storyline.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Message no. 57
From: shadowrn@*********.com (TexasFriedCriminal)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Tue Jan 30 12:15:05 2001
From: Strago
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 4:57 PM

> I agree with Texas Fried Criminal (funny name that, is it supposed to be
> satirical?)

you could say that, yes ;)

let's call it a political and philosophical statement about the US,
capitalism, "your" law system, human rights and dignity in a simple three
word one liner, but I don't wanna brag ;)

(yes, I admit it, I think it's a stroke of genius and I'm glad somebody
noticed it at last ;))
-- ^/_Texas - Fried - Criminal_\^ --
* you want fries with that ? *
----------------------------------------
To participate, therefore, in this
disembodied enactment of life's most
body-centered activity is to risk the
realization that when it comes to sex,
perhaps the body in question is not
the physical one at all, but its psychic
double, the bodylike self-representation
we carry around in our heads...
----------------------------------------
Message no. 58
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Nexx)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Tue Jan 30 13:00:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "TexasFriedCriminal"

> let's call it a political and philosophical statement about the US,
> capitalism, "your" law system, human rights and dignity in a simple three
> word one liner, but I don't wanna brag ;)

Bah. Texas is weak on criminals. I personally prefer Marcus Crassus's
version of capital punishment.

For those not historically literate, Marcus Crassus was the one who put down
the revolt of the slaves under Spartacus. When he captured the remaining
slaves, he crucified one every 100 feet along the Via Appia towards Rome.
He did not break their legs, so they died the much longer death of
dehydration and lack of blood, rather than the comparatively quick on of
suffocation. The corpses were not removed until they rotted off their
crosses.

Now then, since I go from my parent's house in Houston to Kansas, I could
easily see this being done along the length of I-35, though I would prefer
the center median, and they should likely be left out of the cities for
sanitary reasons. I see one every 10 miles or so as adequately covering
I-35 for these purposes.

***
Skald-Mark Mjöksiglandi
a.k.a. Nexx
a.k.a. Mark Hall
***
"If I lose the light of the sun, I will write by candlelight, moonlight, no
light. If I lose paper and ink I will write in blood on forgotten walls. I
will write always. I will capture nights all over the world and bring them
to you."
-Henry Rollins
***
http://www-personal.interkan.net/~nexx/index.html
Updated January 16th, 2001
Message no. 59
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Wed Jan 31 07:30:03 2001
> > Oh...my...gawd...
> >
> > IT RETURNS!!!!
> >
> > Hi, ae. :)
> >
> > Oh, and hi 'gain, Boonie. ;)
>
> Oh, and hi again, Doc'. Long time no see :D
> -Boondocker

*snicker*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Message no. 60
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Nexus)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Wed Jan 31 18:45:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nexx" <nexx@********.net>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: WTF???????


>I see one every 10 miles or so as adequately covering
> I-35 for these purposes.
>

Love the idea...do you think that there might be any way to get our current
legislature to go for it? If nothing it would feed the buzzards and the PETA
people would be happy.
Message no. 61
From: shadowrn@*********.com (abortion_engine)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Wed Jan 31 20:55:00 2001
From: "Rand Ratinac" <docwagon101@*****.com>
> <snipt!(TM)>
> Oh...my...gawd...
>
> IT RETURNS!!!!
>
> Hi, ae. :)

Evening, Doc. Lord, I was hoping /someone/ would notice I was back. Thank
god it was you and not Boondocker. Uh, I mean...whoops.

;)
Message no. 62
From: shadowrn@*********.com (abortion_engine)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Wed Jan 31 20:55:04 2001
From: "Brother Justice" <brother_justice@*******.com>
> >From: Mike and Jill Johnson <shadowrn@******.net>
> >Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
> >To: shadowrn@*********.com
> >Subject: Re: WTF???????
> >Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 00:48:15 -0700
>
> >Not wanting to start anything fears or anything. But, wasn't Jordan
Weisman
> >one of the originators of the Horrors/Immortal elf plotlines?
>
> Fear? FEAR? I was literally skipping around in delight for that very
reason.

He means that; /literally/ skipping around. Would I kid you about something
like this?
Message no. 63
From: shadowrn@*********.com (abortion_engine)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Wed Jan 31 21:00:01 2001
From: "TexasFriedCriminal" <Texas-Fried-Criminal@********.de>
> From: Brother Justice
> > >Not wanting to start anything fears or anything. But, wasn't
> > Jordan Weisman
> > >one of the originators of the Horrors/Immortal elf plotlines?
> > >
> > >Mike
> >
> > Fear? FEAR? I was literally skipping around in delight for that
> > very reason.
>
> then I`d fear for your sanity as well as for the future
>
> that was IMHO the worst crap ever to come from fasa

The operative word[s] here is "IMHO." Your opinion, KFC. /Yours./ Not his,
and not mine, and not that of everyone else in the world, no matter what
some people think. And if BJ is happy that Jordan's back, who are you to
tell him he doesn't get to be happy, much less question his sanity?

> damnit, this is nether dungeons and dragons nor vampire

Because those things have IEs and Dragons and Horrors? I can think of at
least one that neither has. Come along, then.

> while it was only hinted at, it was great, it created suspense and mystery
> but the revealation was _so_ bad...

Yep. I heartily agree. But before they tried to kill it off, it was /so/
good...
Message no. 64
From: shadowrn@*********.com (abortion_engine)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Wed Jan 31 21:00:05 2001
From: "Jonathan Choy" <jjchoy@*********.net>
> (1) I'm not current on SR novels - the last things I read before
Dragonheart
> were Burning Bright and Wolf and Raven. Wolf and Raven was Simply
Stackpole
> *grin*, and Burning Bright was still in the age of the man whose memory
> Mulvihill massacres every time there's a book without shadowtalk anywhere
> between its covers.

Bravo! Bravo! Encore!

You see, BJ is not alone. Not by a long shot.
Message no. 65
From: shadowrn@*********.com (abortion_engine)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Wed Jan 31 21:15:01 2001
From: "Adam J" <adamj@*********.com>
> At 06:21 30/01/2001 -0800, caelric@****.com wrote:
> >Well, despite what some people think, AE and BJ are not the only people
who
> >liked the Immortal Elves/Horrors plotline. Sure, they were getting a
bit
> >over emphasized, but I would like to see them back myself.
>
> <trite> Balance in everything. </trite>

Amen, Self.
Message no. 66
From: shadowrn@*********.com (TexasFriedCriminal)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Wed Jan 31 21:30:01 2001
From: abortion_engine
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 2:56 AM

> The operative word[s] here is "IMHO." Your opinion, KFC. /Yours./ Not his,
> and not mine, and not that of everyone else in the world, no matter what
> some people think. And if BJ is happy that Jordan's back, who are you to
> tell him he doesn't get to be happy, much less question his sanity?

I did say IMHO, and since I never have met brother justice, anything I might
say about his sanity, choice of clothes, genital size is build on no
foundation at all.

there was a certain sarcasm in there that I feel he understood, which you
obivously did not.

so, for the record, no I did not acuse brother justice of being insane, I
merely wanted to add some force to my statement by using what in german is
called "polemik", it was nothing but a rethoric trick, to emphasise my
emotional response.

i apologize should anyone have felt offended.

and the state is texas, not kentucky (p.s. I do take that seriously, and
find some vicious intention in you calling me KFC, considering my mail
concerning my nickname)

If I am wrong please correct me.

> > damnit, this is nether dungeons and dragons nor vampire
>
> Because those things have IEs and Dragons and Horrors? I can think of at
> least one that neither has. Come along, then.

it is not the creature, it is the "world conspiracy of immortal creatures"
and the "save the world" plot lines i was talking about.

p.s. : since english is not my primary language I might not quite be able to
express exactly what I want to say, I do _not_ mind being told about any
blunders.

p.p.s. no offense ment, but I am a little sensitive about chicken.. ask
arclight...

-- ^/_Texas - Fried - Criminal_\^ --
* you want fries with that ? *
----------------------------------------
To participate, therefore, in this
disembodied enactment of life's most
body-centered activity is to risk the
realization that when it comes to sex,
perhaps the body in question is not
the physical one at all, but its psychic
double, the bodylike self-representation
we carry around in our heads...
----------------------------------------
Message no. 67
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Zebulin Magby)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Wed Jan 31 22:10:01 2001
WB AE

Glad to see you've made it back into the fold, even if you've come back at
the right time to get the bad news. ):

Zeb

"All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever..." -Abortion_Engine


----- Original Message -----
From: "abortion_engine" <abortion_engine@*******.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: WTF???????


> From: "Rand Ratinac" <docwagon101@*****.com>
> > <snipt!(TM)>
> > Oh...my...gawd...
> >
> > IT RETURNS!!!!
> >
> > Hi, ae. :)
>
> Evening, Doc. Lord, I was hoping /someone/ would notice I was back. Thank
> god it was you and not Boondocker. Uh, I mean...whoops.
>
> ;)


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 68
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Wed Jan 31 23:05:02 2001
>> IT RETURNS!!!!
>> Hi, ae. :)

> Evening, Doc. Lord, I was hoping /someone/ would notice I was back.
Thank god it was you and not Boondocker. Uh, I mean...whoops.

Gosh. This is the kind of comraderie I did without for nine whole
months? What was I thinking?!? Well, welcome back, ae. Glad to see
you can still stir the list up with a few sentences :)

====-Boondocker

__________________________________________________
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Message no. 69
From: shadowrn@*********.com (abortion_engine)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Feb 3 11:30:02 2001
From: "Scott W" <see_scott_run@*****.com>
> >> IT RETURNS!!!!
> >> Hi, ae. :)
>
> > Evening, Doc. Lord, I was hoping /someone/ would notice I was back.
> Thank god it was you and not Boondocker. Uh, I mean...whoops.
>
> Gosh. This is the kind of comraderie I did without for nine whole
> months? What was I thinking?!? Well, welcome back, ae. Glad to see
> you can still stir the list up with a few sentences :)

And how did you manage to live without me? :) Good to be back, Boondocker.
Message no. 70
From: shadowrn@*********.com (abortion_engine)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Feb 3 11:55:01 2001
From: "Zebulin Magby" <zebulingod@*****.com>
> WB AE
>
> Glad to see you've made it back into the fold, even if you've come back at
> the right time to get the bad news. ):

Bad news brings in bad people. :)

> Zeb
>
> "All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever..." -Abortion_Engine

Can anyone else believe that Strago is /still/ using this as his sig? That
is unbelievably cool.
Message no. 71
From: shadowrn@*********.com (abortion_engine)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Feb 3 11:55:10 2001
From: "TexasFriedCriminal" <Texas-Fried-Criminal@********.de>
> From: abortion_engine
> Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 2:56 AM
> > The operative word[s] here is "IMHO." Your opinion, KFC. /Yours./ Not
his,
> > and not mine, and not that of everyone else in the world, no matter what
> > some people think. And if BJ is happy that Jordan's back, who are you to
> > tell him he doesn't get to be happy, much less question his sanity?
>
> I did say IMHO, and since I never have met brother justice, anything I
might
> say about his sanity, choice of clothes, genital size is build on no
> foundation at all.

Then why say it? I suppose that would be my question.

> there was a certain sarcasm in there that I feel he understood, which you
> obivously did not.

Well, everyone knows sarcasm always goes directly over my head. I'm never
sarcastic; I'm always open and very, very literal. And honest.

And, as a suggestion, people around here sometimes use [s]message[/s] or
[sarc]message[/sarc] as a means of communicating sarcasm, since rolling your
eyes or toning your voice to "droll" doesn't work so well online. Or you can
just use an emoticon.

> so, for the record, no I did not acuse brother justice of being insane, I
> merely wanted to add some force to my statement by using what in german is
> called "polemik", it was nothing but a rethoric trick, to emphasise my
> emotional response.

My lord! What a horrible thing to do! I can't believe anyone would use
rhetoric just to...hey, why's everyone looking at me?

Okay, a little more seriously. I would recommend that rhetorical tricks that
rely on insults, controversy, shock, or anything else of the sort be
avoided, at least here. From extensive personal experience, I can tell you
that these sorts of techniques go quite unappreciated here; it is much
easier to have a /productive/ discussion with the persons on this list if
such tricks are avoided. Besides, I don't like competition. :)

And, again seriously, it's not as if you've personally offended me.
Personally, I think BroJ /is/ insane. But I myself was using a little
rhetorical trick to make the discussion more about the issues - and in a
nice, polite way - and less mean-spirited.

I thought just your initial post was more confrontational than it needed to
be. BroJ and I - and others - are are happy that SR has gone to Wizkids, and
while I don't expect everyone else to jump for joy at the prospect, I don't
think mean-spiritedness is necessary. By the same token, if Mike Mulvihill
is hired as the Line Developer for SR, I know everyone else will be
thrilled, while I will go and bang my head against a wall for an hour or
two. But despite how bothered it would make me, I would like to think about
the worst thing I would say to someone else being thrilled about the
prospect is, "Could you keep the sounds of revelry down? I'm trying to cry
here." Or something of the sort.

> i apologize should anyone have felt offended.

Not at all, but thank you.

> and the state is texas, not kentucky

My apologies.

> (p.s. I do take that seriously, and
> find some vicious intention in you calling me KFC, considering my mail
> concerning my nickname)

...which I either didn't read or forgot about. I assure you there was no
viciousness intended; never ascribe to my viciousness what could be better
explained by my incompetance.

> > > damnit, this is nether dungeons and dragons nor vampire
> >
> > Because those things have IEs and Dragons and Horrors? I can think of at
> > least one that neither has. Come along, then.
>
> it is not the creature, it is the "world conspiracy of immortal creatures"
> and the "save the world" plot lines i was talking about.

And I would agree with you. However, I think it's a flaw inherent in the
genre, and less an SR-specific issue, or even an SR/D&D/WoD issue.

I would also like to note that, with one noteable exception, none of the
published adventures involved saving the world. You'll note that the
adventures' involvement with the uber-plot was always peripheral; this gives
us some idea of FASA's intent regarding the sorts of things you should do
with these plotlines. Their idea isn't that PCs will be directly involved
with, for instance, Dunklezahn's death, but, using this example, the larger
picture influences them in other ways; for example, through the jobs created
by the will, through the political aftermath of having a new president, etc.
I always thought FASA was pretty clear on that, and that pleased me; after
all, that's the way the world works. A government shake-up in Korea means
precisely nothing to me personally, but the price of RAM dropping to US$100
for a 1 gig DIMM would, for instance. This is one of the ways in which I
though SR nicely modeled real life.

> p.s. : since english is not my primary language I might not quite be able
to
> express exactly what I want to say, I do _not_ mind being told about any
> blunders.

No worry; English /is/ my primary language, and I'm /still/ not always able
to express exactly what I want to say. In your case, if all else fails, just
communicate in German; I may not speak it well, but I read it just fine.
Message no. 72
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Feb 3 12:25:02 2001
In a message dated 2/3/01 12:00:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
abortion_engine@*******.com writes:

> You'll note that the
> adventures' involvement with the uber-plot was always peripheral;

Not always, AE. Harlequin and Harley's back...um, man...gah. At present, I
liked how they were in the VERY beginning. A kinda shadowy force...NOT
something responsible for everything good humanity's done. A force that's
only WATCHED until the Sixth World, and even now only acts in the DEEP
shadows, moving only if we're about to REALLY hurt ourselves.

> this gives
> us some idea of FASA's intent regarding the sorts of things you should do
> with these plotlines. Their idea isn't that PCs will be directly involved
> with, for instance, Dunklezahn's death, but, using this example, the larger
> picture influences them in other ways; for example, through the jobs
created
> by the will, through the political aftermath of having a new president,
etc.
> I always thought FASA was pretty clear on that, and that pleased me; after
> all, that's the way the world works.

Much agreement, noting Dunk's will as an example. But the way Dowd did it was
more of a "IE's did everything that's good. Mortals just suck." As somebody I
game with occasionally said of the IEs: It's like the *IEs* were the focus of
SR by the time Dowd left, with the players as a sideline.

John
Message no. 73
From: shadowrn@*********.com (abortion_engine)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Feb 3 16:05:03 2001
From: <DemonPenta@***.com>
> abortion_engine@*******.com writes:
> > You'll note that the
> > adventures' involvement with the uber-plot was always peripheral;
>
> Not always, AE. Harlequin and Harley's back...um, man...gah.

That's where the "one noteable exception" part comes in. Hey, you cut that
part out! Don't do that! :)

> At present, I
> liked how they were in the VERY beginning. A kinda shadowy force...NOT
> something responsible for everything good humanity's done. A force that's
> only WATCHED until the Sixth World, and even now only acts in the DEEP
> shadows, moving only if we're about to REALLY hurt ourselves.

Bah. I don't see /that,/ per se. What good are the IEs supposed to have
done? Created lots of confusing infighting and gratutious grudges that lead
to fragmentation and inneffective leadership? Heck, as far as I can tell,
SR's IEs did far more harm than good. Mortals look great by comparison. "We
made the Roman Empire, and all you're good for is the lousy Tir? Jeez." :)

But I agree that the IEs sprouted up everywhere, and in more places than
even I felt were necessary. Like Adam always says, it's all about balance,
and they lost it. What I don't think, however, is that swinging the pendulum
back the other way completely is the answer. Now IEs and Dragons are
relegated to novels only - or mostly - and it's as if they all suddenly
decided to take a nap.

And what the heck's the deal with the way they're treated in novels? I like
Carolyn Spector's IEs; petty, squabbling idiots with lots of power. You
know, people, except very, very old ones. And her treatment of Dunklezahn -
completely remote and peripheral, but essential - is excellent. The idea
that Alamaise or Lofwyr has to show up personally in every novel now, and
wander about doing their own dirty work...what the devil's that all about?

> > this gives
> > us some idea of FASA's intent regarding the sorts of things you should
do
> > with these plotlines. Their idea isn't that PCs will be directly
involved
> > with, for instance, Dunklezahn's death, but, using this example, the
larger
> > picture influences them in other ways; for example, through the jobs
> created
> > by the will, through the political aftermath of having a new president,
> etc.
> > I always thought FASA was pretty clear on that, and that pleased me;
after
> > all, that's the way the world works.
>
> Much agreement, noting Dunk's will as an example. But the way Dowd did it
was
> more of a "IE's did everything that's good. Mortals just suck." As
somebody I
> game with occasionally said of the IEs: It's like the *IEs* were the focus
of
> SR by the time Dowd left, with the players as a sideline.

Again, I don't see the "IEs good, mortals bad," thing, but I will concede,
again, that the focus was a little too strongly on them, at the expense of
some good old-fashioned simple shadowrunning. Although I'll note again that
none but one, really, adventure concerned itself with saving the world, and
only a very few dealt /directly/ with issues much larger than the runners.
Message no. 74
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Feb 3 16:15:01 2001
In a message dated 2/3/01 4:07:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,
abortion_engine@*******.com writes:

> Again, I don't see the "IEs good, mortals bad," thing, but I will concede,
> again, that the focus was a little too strongly on them, at the expense of
> some good old-fashioned simple shadowrunning. Although I'll note again that
> none but one, really, adventure concerned itself with saving the world, and
> only a very few dealt /directly/ with issues much larger than the runners.

Mm. To finalize my problem....IEs allowed the Terrible Twins to have a say in
SR. That....Well, I'm sorry. THAT is just HORRIBLE.

John
Message no. 75
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Feb 3 20:20:01 2001
On Sat, 3 Feb 2001 16:00:34 -0500 "abortion_engine"
<abortion_engine@*******.com> writes:
> And what the heck's the deal with the way they're treated in novels?
> I like
> Carolyn Spector's IEs; petty, squabbling idiots with lots of power.
> You
> know, people, except very, very old ones. And her treatment of
> Dunklezahn -
> completely remote and peripheral, but essential - is excellent. The
> idea
> that Alamaise or Lofwyr has to show up personally in every novel
> now, and
> wander about doing their own dirty work...what the devil's that all
> about?
>

See, the novel's were the main problem I had. Each Michael Sutherland
novel had to escalate until it came down to The Church launching
missile's at Leonardo's master otaku kaer?
World's Without End, how did this involve shadowrunning at all? Two IE's
wandering around chatting with other IE's. Revealing how Alachia was
Queen Elizabeth and a Nazi... Oh, and can't forget the half-IE/ Half
horror that taught the GGD....

Besides the novel's, the IE's didn't do anything, so why miss them? :-)

As for the Horror's, I think they were the same way, they showed up in
the novels, but that's really it (besides Harley's Back) when they were
used in the novel's, they were overused, and their loss is no major deal
to me. (Mind you, I still use them in my game's, but I still think they
were going overboard and from all expectations, it was gonna get worse.)

I don't think Alamaise and Lofwyr have been "every novel now" and when
two dragon's feud, I think they will be involved directly at some point.

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 76
From: shadowrn@*********.com (abortion_engine)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sun Feb 4 16:45:01 2001
From: <DemonPenta@***.com>
> abortion_engine@*******.com writes:
> > Again, I don't see the "IEs good, mortals bad," thing, but I will
concede,
> > again, that the focus was a little too strongly on them, at the expense
of
> > some good old-fashioned simple shadowrunning. Although I'll note again
that
> > none but one, really, adventure concerned itself with saving the world,
and
> > only a very few dealt /directly/ with issues much larger than the
runners.
>
> Mm. To finalize my problem....IEs allowed the Terrible Twins to have a say
in
> SR. That....Well, I'm sorry. THAT is just HORRIBLE.

It wouldn't have taken the IEs; evil is transcendent. It will find any way
into your homes, your lives...your RPGs.
Message no. 77
From: shadowrn@*********.com (abortion_engine)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sun Feb 4 16:50:01 2001
From: <vocenoctum@****.com>
> <abortion_engine@*******.com> writes:
> > And what the heck's the deal with the way they're treated in novels?
> > I like
> > Carolyn Spector's IEs; petty, squabbling idiots with lots of power.
> > You
> > know, people, except very, very old ones. And her treatment of
> > Dunklezahn -
> > completely remote and peripheral, but essential - is excellent. The
> > idea
> > that Alamaise or Lofwyr has to show up personally in every novel
> > now, and
> > wander about doing their own dirty work...what the devil's that all
> > about?
> >
> See, the novel's were the main problem I had. Each Michael Sutherland
> novel had to escalate until it came down to The Church launching
> missile's at Leonardo's master otaku kaer?

Oh, come on, now. Those people are exceptions, and we know that. Thank god
they're exceptions.

> World's Without End, how did this involve shadowrunning at all? Two IE's
> wandering around chatting with other IE's. Revealing how Alachia was
> Queen Elizabeth and a Nazi... Oh, and can't forget the half-IE/ Half
> horror that taught the GGD....

WWE /wasn't/ about shadowrunning. That's one of the things I liked about it.
I'd like to see more novels that aren't; again, it gives depth to the
gameworld, in my opinion. I'd like to see more work just set in Shadowrun's
world, but not about shadowrunning.

> <snip>
> I don't think Alamaise and Lofwyr have been "every novel now" and when
> two dragon's feud, I think they will be involved directly at some point.

Hell, it's not even /them/ feuding nowadays. It's Lofwyr showing up to bite
someone's head off personally that has nothing to do with his brother. I'll
have to read the - otherwise good - novel again, just so I can bitch about
it more intelligently. :)
Message no. 78
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sun Feb 4 16:55:01 2001
In a message dated 2/4/01 4:47:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
abortion_engine@*******.com writes:

> >
> > Mm. To finalize my problem....IEs allowed the Terrible Twins to have a
say
> in
> > SR. That....Well, I'm sorry. THAT is just HORRIBLE.
>
> It wouldn't have taken the IEs; evil is transcendent. It will find any way
> into your homes, your lives...your RPGs.

Point taken. But still, why give em any more of an opening?
Message no. 79
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sun Feb 4 18:55:00 2001
On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:47:53 -0500 "abortion_engine"
<abortion_engine@*******.com> writes:
> From: <vocenoctum@****.com>
> > See, the novel's were the main problem I had. Each Michael
> Sutherland
> > novel had to escalate until it came down to The Church launching
> > missile's at Leonardo's master otaku kaer?
>
> Oh, come on, now. Those people are exceptions, and we know that.
> Thank god
> they're exceptions.
>

True, but for a while that seemed like all the novel's were. They had
nothing to do with the world of shadowrunning. Course, it's the same
reason I got tired of the Btech novel's, they want to save the
world/universe each new novel. I'd rather have lower key stuff. The
occasional big metaplot is great, but it got too tedious after a while.
IMO of course

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 80
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gordon McCormick)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Mon Feb 5 06:05:01 2001
On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 04:12:46PM -0500, DemonPenta@***.com wrote:
>
> Mm. To finalize my problem....IEs allowed the Terrible Twins to have a say in
> SR. That....Well, I'm sorry. THAT is just HORRIBLE.

Who are the Terrible Twins?

gordon, being ignorant again
Message no. 81
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: WTF???????
Date: Sat Feb 10 20:35:01 2001
> > <snipt!(TM)>
> > Oh...my...gawd...
> >
> > IT RETURNS!!!!
> >
> > Hi, ae. :)
>
> Evening, Doc. Lord, I was hoping /someone/ would
notice I was back. Thank god it was you and not
Boondocker. Uh, I mean...whoops.
>
> ;)

Whoops indeed. :)

Well, I would have noticed sooner, but I've been on
holidays and not checking the list mail regularly.

*sigh*

Back to work tomorrow...:(

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about WTF???????, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!