Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Shawn McCollum Shawn_McCollum@*********.com
Subject: XML and Character Sheets
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 13:49:38 -0400
Quick intro why I want to do this:
All the people in my group now have computers and are able to get on the
internet. After we play I keep all the character sheets, for two reasons.
First, a player that we once ran with would make some changes to his sheet,
once I noticed it I made the declaration that I would hold on to the
character sheets, and if a player wanted it they would have to make a copy.
Second, sometimes the players are coming from work and would forget their
character sheet. Everybody is pretty happy with it, basically means that
all they have to show upwith is their brain and dice if they want to use
their own dice.

Lately, we haven't been getting together enough, and people forget what
there characters can do or have. I suggested that they should take their
character sheets with them, since the we don't see the cheater anymore.
Everybody has gotten used to me holding on to them, so that didn't work.
After looking at the available character programs, none really worked for
me. So I figured I would write my own, but first, what should the should
the save format be? How to get it on the internet as a web page?


What I want to do:
My answer to both of the above questions is XML. I would have one save
format that with XSL could be easily displayed differently depending on what
character type you were working with. Also with some of the forth coming
visual XSL products, anyone could make there own sheets easily, and anyone
else could see their character with it by linking the two together. I am
still pretty new to XML, and a newbie at XSL.

So I am thinking about making it open for others to help out. My plan is to
have someone handle different aspects of the sheet. I have just finished my
first attempt and built a schema and style for the attribute box on the
sheet. I will make a page soon on geocities or somewhere soon and post it
there. So I am looking for volenteers to help out, send me an offlist
message that you are willing to help, and what area of the character you
would like to handle.

I know some of you also play other games so we could also make projects to
design mark-ups for other games too.

Shawn McCollum
INET Technologies Group
Compuware Corporation
31440 Northwestern Highway
Farmington Hills, MI 48334

Phone: (248) 737-7300 Ext. 8198
Fax: (248) 737-7629
Email: shawn_mccollum@*********.com
Message no. 2
From: Ojaste,James [NCR] James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA
Subject: XML and Character Sheets
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 16:10:32 -0400
Shawn McCollum [mailto:Shawn_McCollum@*********.com]
[snip background]
> What I want to do:
> My answer to both of the above questions is XML. I would

Why XML and not HTML? Are you planning on using it as the native
data format (or a data exchange format with some other character
database that also uses XML)? If not, stick with HTML - it has
better support all around.

> have one save
> format that with XSL could be easily displayed differently

XSL? XSL is only on the third working draft. Why not stick with
tried-and-true CSS?

> depending on what
> character type you were working with. Also with some of the
> forth coming
> visual XSL products, anyone could make there own sheets
> easily, and anyone
> else could see their character with it by linking the two
> together. I am
> still pretty new to XML, and a newbie at XSL.

Heh. Everybody's new to XML and XSL. When the standards are
complete and agents (browsers) are available that implement the
standards, then people can get some real experience.

> So I am thinking about making it open for others to help out.
> My plan is to
> have someone handle different aspects of the sheet. I have
> just finished my
> first attempt and built a schema and style for the attribute
> box on the
> sheet. I will make a page soon on geocities or somewhere
> soon and post it
> there. So I am looking for volenteers to help out, send me an offlist
> message that you are willing to help, and what area of the
> character you
> would like to handle.

I'll be happy to look at whatever you produce. Provided that I can
actually view/manipulate it, of course...

> I know some of you also play other games so we could also
> make projects to
> design mark-ups for other games too.

Most games (RPGs, specifically) aren't similar enough to have
anything but a GenericSkillList or GenericEquipmentList in common.

Unless of course you're talking about writing a meta-parser for
generic RPG info. Specifying RPG DTDs is a *big* project, though.

James Ojaste
Message no. 3
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: XML and Character Sheets
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 14:04:33 -0700
At 04:10 PM 07/05/99 , Ojaste,James [NCR] annoyed me by writing:
>Shawn McCollum [mailto:Shawn_McCollum@*********.com]
>[snip background]
>> What I want to do:
>> My answer to both of the above questions is XML. I would

>Why XML and not HTML? Are you planning on using it as the native
>data format (or a data exchange format with some other character
>database that also uses XML)? If not, stick with HTML - it has
>better support all around.

Paolo has already come up with a decent XML/XSL layout, which we are
working to be SRCG3 compatible :) The Spell Designer uses XML files as its
save format, allowing for web publishing fairly easily, and with one master
template that cn be changed at will. Similar to other forms of scripting,
yes, but it is (imo) a bit more versatile than html. (Especially since I
can either import the xml file into the spell designer, OR into a web
document. ;)


--
Dvixen - dvixen@****.com - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair
SRFanFic's Keeper of the Rabid Woodchuck!
Current challenge: From the Point of View of an Inanimate Object.
Message no. 4
From: Shawn McCollum Shawn_McCollum@*********.com
Subject: XML and Character Sheets
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 19:10:53 -0400
> Shawn McCollum [mailto:Shawn_McCollum@*********.com]
> [snip background]
> > What I want to do:
> > My answer to both of the above questions is XML. I would
>
> Why XML and not HTML? Are you planning on using it as the native
> data format (or a data exchange format with some other character
> database that also uses XML)? If not, stick with HTML - it has
> better support all around.
>

Yes the reason for XML is for a Data format for the save feature of any
program I may make. Also run your XML through XSL and your output can be
HTML, ascii, or whatever you want.

>
> > have one save
> > format that with XSL could be easily displayed differently
>
> XSL? XSL is only on the third working draft. Why not stick with
> tried-and-true CSS?
>

XSL and CSS share the same formatting model, i'll definatly be using CSS for
simple formating like colors and fonts. CSS is great for decorating but
can't manipulate anything, which is what I would like to be able to do.


Shawn McCollum
Message no. 5
From: Ojaste,James [NCR] James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA
Subject: XML and Character Sheets
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:04:54 -0400
Shawn McCollum [mailto:Shawn_McCollum@*********.com]
> > Why XML and not HTML? Are you planning on using it as the native
> > data format (or a data exchange format with some other character
> > database that also uses XML)? If not, stick with HTML - it has
> > better support all around.
> Yes the reason for XML is for a Data format for the save
> feature of any
> program I may make. Also run your XML through XSL and your
> output can be
> HTML, ascii, or whatever you want.

OK. As an internal data format or an exchange data format XML
makes sense. I just have the tendency to watch out when somebody
mentions the latest unsupported technology as the solution to all
problems. ;-)

> > > have one save
> > > format that with XSL could be easily displayed differently
> > XSL? XSL is only on the third working draft. Why not stick with
> > tried-and-true CSS?
> XSL and CSS share the same formatting model, i'll definatly
> be using CSS for
> simple formating like colors and fonts. CSS is great for
> decorating but

I call it formatting - "decorating" sounds a little... weenie. ;-)

> can't manipulate anything, which is what I would like to be
> able to do.

That depends entirely on what you mean by manipulation. I'd call
positioning manipulation.

James Ojaste
Message no. 6
From: Ojaste,James [NCR] James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA
Subject: XML and Character Sheets
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:14:43 -0400
Dvixen [mailto:dvixen@****.com]
> At 04:10 PM 07/05/99 , Ojaste,James [NCR] annoyed me by writing:
> >Why XML and not HTML? Are you planning on using it as the native
> >data format (or a data exchange format with some other character
> >database that also uses XML)? If not, stick with HTML - it has
> >better support all around.
> Paolo has already come up with a decent XML/XSL layout, which we are
> working to be SRCG3 compatible :) The Spell Designer uses XML

I was just questioning his motives. XML is still a hugely unsupported
format. Sure, there are a couple of parsers out there, but only a few
very limited agents. If the program is expected to be the primary
agent (ie loading and saving data), great. It adds the possibility
of future flexibility (if more programs pick up on that particular
DTD of XML for their data - like agreeing on using the <STR> tag or
<Strength> tag).

> files as its
> save format, allowing for web publishing fairly easily, and
> with one master
> template that cn be changed at will. Similar to other forms
> of scripting,
> yes, but it is (imo) a bit more versatile than html.

Since it was designed to be inherently more flexible than HTML, I'm
not surprised... :-)

> (Especially since I
> can either import the xml file into the spell designer, OR into a web
> document. ;)

The only problem is that native browser support for XML is just
starting. It doesn't exactly have a wide and immediate audience...

James Ojaste

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about XML and Character Sheets, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.