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Message no. 1
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:52:37 -0500
So I'm home sick today, and bored out of my mind.
Which sets me to thinking about how little I post here anymore.
And so I decided to see if I could stir things up around these parts. ;-)

Anyway, what I'm interested in is this - FASA, like many other game
companies has set on the path of doing theme years.
Ala Election Year (with the Big D plotline), Bug Year (back when Bug City
came out) and now with the recently announced Year of the Comet.

Personally I like this trend.
It gives the players something to look forward to, and helps unify the
setting IMO.

So my question is this ... What other theme years would you like to see for
SR? What would the theme cover, and how would you promote it?

I know a few that have been mentioned before ...

1. Year of Conflict - featuring open war between Atzlan and the CAS. A nice
gimmick would be to relese two seperate book for this, one covering the CAS
forces and offensives, and one covering the Azzies. Giving GM's and players
the option of choosing sides in the conflict.
2. Year of Space - with a Space exploration theme.

I could go for a Year of the Critter too. Each month FASA could release a
small critter themed adventure - along the lines of their old line of
adventure books, or even something the size of the quickstart rules.

Anyone else have an idea?

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
" If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college." -
Louis Black
Message no. 2
From: BrotherJustice50@***.com BrotherJustice50@***.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:09:18 EST
Year of the Dead

Lots and lots of zombie type ghoul type creatures. Sorry being watch Day of the Living
Dead and Dawn of the Living Dead and playing way too much Resident Evil lately. But I
think it would just be way too cool to pass up.
Message no. 3
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:10:07 -0500
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.com>
> So my question is this ... What other theme years would you like to see
for
> SR? What would the theme cover, and how would you promote it?
>
> 1. Year of Conflict - featuring open war between Atzlan and the CAS. A
nice
> gimmick would be to relese two seperate book for this, one covering the
CAS
> forces and offensives, and one covering the Azzies. Giving GM's and
players
> the option of choosing sides in the conflict.

This is the big one for me. And I'd like to see the War be a little more
widespread. [Of course, I'd like it to be in Europe, instead, so we could
re-explore Britain and Germany, but hey...and we could call it Barsaive at
War, and confuse everyone. :) ]

I'd like to see the entirety of North and South America slowly dragged into
a war. Alliances, lies, diplomacy, combat, fun for the whole family. Make
the eventual "sides" into three or four warring factions, as opposed to the
standard "two opposing forces and their allies." Play with [logical]
military hardware and tactics.

Unfortunately, not everyone thinks war is appropos for shadowrun. ["Put the
shadow back in shadowrun."] Look at all the people who didn't like Fields of
Fire because the scale of combat implied was too large. But I still think
there's room in the shadows for the effects of war, and I still think that
Military SR would make a fun alternate campaign setting. But then again, we
ran several all-merc campaigns, as well, so I suppose we're wierd or
something.

For additional information on this subject, check out:
http://shadowrun.html.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000351.html
which was a lot of discussion on the issue.

But there's another idea I have, as well, that I've bantered about for a
long time; the idea of a shadow war, the idea that the corps might someday
decide we're more trouble than we're worth. There'd be a lead-up, where we
begin to realise that things are getting tight, that the corps are starting
to wonder if shadowrunners are worth it, and then there'd be some enormous
trigger event, like Neon Samurai and a team of handpicked runners destroying
an *entire* Ares facility, a la Oklahoma City. That breaks the delicate
peace.

The corps decide to exterminate the runners. They raise security, they speak
in Corporate Court, they begin to plan. And then they unload, sending
runners against runners, putting "disguised" corpsec teams in runnerbars to
kill them, sending in specially-trained shadowrunnerhunters to infiltrate
shadowrunning teams and take them out from the inside. You never know if the
new guy is really a runner, or really a corp-trained spy, sent to subvert
and kill. Paranoia is more rampant than ever.

There's no more "investigate *then* kill." Shadowrunners are shot on sight
when infiltrating.

Somehow, of course, some parity would need to be acheived; we'd have to bust
their bottom line in such a way that they realise we can hurt them as much
as they can hurt us, or at least enough to lower profits too far for the war
to be possible. And then some closure, setting things back to where they
were...for the most part.

I didn't put any of that the way I meant to, as usual. Whatever. You can
read between the lines.

I think a corp vs. shadowrunner war would be fun.
Message no. 4
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:29:06 -0500 (EST)
abortion_engine wrote:
> But there's another idea I have, as well, that I've bantered about for a
> long time; the idea of a shadow war, the idea that the corps might someday
> decide we're more trouble than we're worth. There'd be a lead-up, where we
> begin to realise that things are getting tight, that the corps are starting
> to wonder if shadowrunners are worth it, and then there'd be some enormous
> trigger event,...
>
> The corps decide to exterminate the runners. They raise security, they speak
> in Corporate Court, they begin to plan. ...

That's an awful lot of work. If the corps don't think the runners are worth
it anymore, they simply stop hiring them and the problem goes away. Plus
if the corps decide all runners are to be dealt with in a lethal fashion,
the stragglers will be eliminated in short order and everyone else will
try to get a real job or stick to smaller targets.


> Somehow, of course, some parity would need to be acheived; we'd have to bust
> their bottom line in such a way that they realise we can hurt them as much
> as they can hurt us, or at least enough to lower profits too far for the war
> to be possible. And then some closure, setting things back to where they
> were...for the most part.

So why bother with the plotline if everything returns to normal? I'm not
being sarcastic. Why would FASA want such a plotline if at the end it's
hard to tell the difference from the start?


> I think a corp vs. shadowrunner war would be fun.

For about a day, IMO. I think you're overestimating the power of runners
who don't have corp backing or anyone paying their expenses.
Message no. 5
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:41:46 -0500
From: "Richard Tomasso" <rtomasso@*******.com>
> abortion_engine wrote:
> > But there's another idea I have, as well, that I've bantered about for a
> > long time; the idea of a shadow war, the idea that the corps might
someday
> > decide we're more trouble than we're worth. There'd be a lead-up, where
we
> > begin to realise that things are getting tight, that the corps are
starting
> > to wonder if shadowrunners are worth it, and then there'd be some
enormous
> > trigger event,...
> >
> > The corps decide to exterminate the runners. They raise security, they
speak
> > in Corporate Court, they begin to plan. ...
>
> That's an awful lot of work. If the corps don't think the runners are
worth
> it anymore, they simply stop hiring them and the problem goes away. Plus
> if the corps decide all runners are to be dealt with in a lethal fashion,
> the stragglers will be eliminated in short order and everyone else will
> try to get a real job or stick to smaller targets.

Well, then you'd need some reason for the runners to strike back, a reason
for them to work without pay. Remember, this is a two-way street; they've
each got the *hate* the other. That way, when the corp starts "not hiring"
runners, it doesn't matter. The runners just keep striking back, hurting the
corp. Pinpricks, yes, but a death of a thousand cuts is still death.

> > Somehow, of course, some parity would need to be acheived; we'd have to
bust
> > their bottom line in such a way that they realise we can hurt them as
much
> > as they can hurt us, or at least enough to lower profits too far for the
war
> > to be possible. And then some closure, setting things back to where they
> > were...for the most part.
>
> So why bother with the plotline if everything returns to normal? I'm not
> being sarcastic. Why would FASA want such a plotline if at the end it's
> hard to tell the difference from the start?

Two words for you; Bug City. I don't think plots should revert to nothing,
either, but FASA seems to like re-entering the status quo. Obviously, there
are repercussions, and the end of the effects of such a plot are nowhere in
sight, but if corps won't hire shadowrunners, ever, at all, then we're out
of a roleplaying game, neh?

> > I think a corp vs. shadowrunner war would be fun.
>
> For about a day, IMO. I think you're overestimating the power of runners
> who don't have corp backing or anyone paying their expenses.

Sure. And you're telling me that no single man could, say, kill the
president of the United States. Sure.

A hundred runners with malice in their hearts could really screw up a
megacorp or two. No, they couldn't kill them, but they could hurt the bottom
line pretty bad. Information piracy. Bombings. Interferance with delivery or
production runs. 1% of a corp's bottom line is a lot of money. And if
someone got it in their head to assassinate the head of a megacorp or two,
it wouldn't be too hard to execute. Imagine today; don't you think that a
hundred professional killers could kill Bill Gates and Scott MacNealy? Or a
thousand? Do you think there might be repercussions if they did that?

Do you think that there are a hundred shadowrunners? A thousand?

___________________________________
The devil is an angel just like everyone else.
Message no. 6
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:50:05 -0500
"Steven A. Tinner" wrote:

> <SNIP>
> Anyone else have an idea?
>

<SNIP>
Well, in my Game, 2061 is The Year of the Great Mob War.
Sure we had the Mob War back in '58, but it was kinda overshadowed by Dunkie's
will and the upheaval that caused. This time, it's bigger, it's meaner, and it
all got caused by a one-shot PC Choson Ring member who decided to carve the
yin-yang into the oyabun's second son. I love my PCs some times. They just
don't think about the consequences...
Oh, that Year of the Comet stuff? Filler for the Mob War Mark II. The best part
is that Wuxing and the Triads are linked, and the Japanacorps and the Yaks are
linked. Fun fun for me! <EGMG>
Message no. 7
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:08:52 -0500 (EST)
abortion_engine wrote:
> Well, then you'd need some reason for the runners to strike back, a reason
> for them to work without pay. Remember, this is a two-way street; they've
> each got the *hate* the other. That way, when the corp starts "not hiring"
> runners, it doesn't matter. The runners just keep striking back, hurting the
> corp. Pinpricks, yes, but a death of a thousand cuts is still death.

I don't see a good enough reason. Sure, if the corps wanted to go through
the time, effort, trouble and expense of killing all the runners that might
do it. It's so much easier just to ignore them. And if you wanted to have
a shadow war, then a conventional war plotline would be a better place to
handle it, IMO.


> > So why bother with the plotline if everything returns to normal? I'm not
> > being sarcastic. Why would FASA want such a plotline if at the end it's
> > hard to tell the difference from the start?
>
> Two words for you; Bug City. I don't think plots should revert to nothing,

Bug City was an event, not part of some Year Of plotline. And things are
different and it did have an effect - it pushed the Mob out of Chicago, it
was an election year issue, we finally saw insect spirits for real, we found
out Ares has nukes, Detroit gained some importance as an economic center.


> either, but FASA seems to like re-entering the status quo. Obviously, there
> are repercussions, and the end of the effects of such a plot are nowhere in
> sight, but if corps won't hire shadowrunners, ever, at all, then we're out
> of a roleplaying game, neh?

My point exactly. Your idea would change the game from "getting hired to
commit crimes and get away with it" to "let's blow up a factory b/c the
corp wants to kill us". Personally, I wouldn't go for that.


> > > I think a corp vs. shadowrunner war would be fun.
> >
> > For about a day, IMO. I think you're overestimating the power of runners
> > who don't have corp backing or anyone paying their expenses.
>
> Sure. And you're telling me that no single man could, say, kill the
> president of the United States. Sure.

SR is a very different world from ours. And I'm not saying that.


> A hundred runners with malice in their hearts could really screw up a
> megacorp or two. No, they couldn't kill them, but they could hurt the bottom
> line pretty bad. Information piracy. Bombings. Interferance with delivery or
> production runs. 1% of a corp's bottom line is a lot of money. And if
> someone got it in their head to assassinate the head of a megacorp or two,
> it wouldn't be too hard to execute. Imagine today; don't you think that a
> hundred professional killers could kill Bill Gates and Scott MacNealy? Or a
> thousand? Do you think there might be repercussions if they did that?

Except today's CEO's don't live in guarded Arcologies with the best protection
money can buy. Assassinating a first-world president in 2000 is probably
easy by comparison. And most Megacorps aren't so dependent on one person
(except Ares, Cross and Yamatetsu).


> Do you think that there are a hundred shadowrunners? A thousand?

In a city like Seattle, I'd say there were maybe 300 people who could
really claim the mantle of Shadowrunner. Of those, maybe 50 with any
real power of their own. Most of whom I'm sure could retire if they
really wanted to.
Message no. 8
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:15:10 -0500
abortion_engine wrote:

> From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.com>
> <SNIP>

> Unfortunately, not everyone thinks war is appropos for shadowrun. ["Put the
> shadow back in shadowrun."] Look at all the people who didn't like Fields of
> Fire because the scale of combat implied was too large. But I still think
> there's room in the shadows for the effects of war, and I still think that
> Military SR would make a fun alternate campaign setting. But then again, we
> ran several all-merc campaigns, as well, so I suppose we're wierd or
> something.
>

Well, I agree that the war isn't appropriate for the PCs to get involved with.
Maybe I'm not a good GM, but I don't know if I could handle all of the different
factors in combat in a warzone. There's too many variables, IMO, for me to keep
track of by myself. That's why Shadowrun is so perfect for me: it's the six or
seven PCs versus at most the 12 NPCs. I don't know, it just seems like War is
not the place to be playing an RPG. If you want to play War, play Warhammer 40K.

Now, as a backdrop? I think that'd rock. A friend and I had thought of all of
these things which could happen in 2061 that would not really influence the PCs
that much but raise the tension of the world until it exploded into a corp war.
Now THAT I'd like to run my PCs through. Corps trying to kill each other,
turning on each other, exposing the Corporate Court for the sham it is. OH it'd
be beautiful. And I even have the event that could cause this. Here's my
scenario.

The UCAS and Quebec have been snarling at each other's borders like two rabid
wolves, eyeing each other warily. Then Lucien Cross gets involved, bargaining
with the UCAS military for a supply contract. So Damien Knight thinks he's got
to sabatoge the meeting. He hires a group of runners, who bomb the tent with the
CAT-CO reps. What no one knows is that both military commanders were there,
using the opportunity of looking at CAT-CO to do a little negotiating to make
sure war doesn't break out there too. So they are all blown to hell.
But, of course, both sides blame the other for the deaths, and war breaks out
anyway. CATCO figures is out, goes to the Corp Court, Knight says "FRAG OFF" and
the two of them go at it. Then some stupid corp like Renraku who's lost some
prestige decides they're gonna execute an Omega Order on Both Corps without the
Court telling them to. With Ares, CAT-CO and Renraku duking it out through
proxies, runner demand shoots through the roof. (I like it when demand for
runners shoots through the roof. Their room to negotiate becomes maybe, at most,
2000¥ and that makes me happy.) So from there the Corp Court gives an Omega
Order on Renraku, but MCT steps up to defend it (I don't know, maybe the Yaks
are moving into Renraku as well or something MCT just has to get involved here.)
So THEY attack the other Corps, while Ares and CAT-CO are fighting. The only one
no one has touched at this point is Saeder-Krupp (Gee, I wonder why?). Lofwyr
wants to get hisself involved in a bad way so he does. And from there, it all
goes to hell in a handbasket.

Now, the return to normalcy? I don't know, maybe one corp goes down. Say Renraku
cuz they're already floundering. The others get shocked into stopping what
they're doing. The economy starts to crumble. So something has to get fixed.
I'll think more on it and get back to you all.
Message no. 9
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:43:14 -0500
From: "Richard Tomasso" <rtomasso@*******.com>
> abortion_engine wrote:
> > Well, then you'd need some reason for the runners to strike back, a
reason
> > for them to work without pay. Remember, this is a two-way street;
they've
> > each got the *hate* the other. That way, when the corp starts "not
hiring"
> > runners, it doesn't matter. The runners just keep striking back, hurting
the
> > corp. Pinpricks, yes, but a death of a thousand cuts is still death.
>
> I don't see a good enough reason. Sure, if the corps wanted to go through
> the time, effort, trouble and expense of killing all the runners that
might
> do it. It's so much easier just to ignore them. And if you wanted to have
> a shadow war, then a conventional war plotline would be a better place to
> handle it, IMO.

Uh, well, that's a completely different issue, in my opinion. War
influencing shadowrunners vs. war *on* shadowrunners.

> > > So why bother with the plotline if everything returns to normal? I'm
not
> > > being sarcastic. Why would FASA want such a plotline if at the end
it's
> > > hard to tell the difference from the start?
> >
> > Two words for you; Bug City. I don't think plots should revert to
nothing,
>
> Bug City was an event, not part of some Year Of plotline. And things are
> different and it did have an effect - it pushed the Mob out of Chicago, it
> was an election year issue, we finally saw insect spirits for real, we
found
> out Ares has nukes, Detroit gained some importance as an economic center.

Bug City was, IMO, the inspiration for the "year plotline" idea. And
executed better, IMO, as there were years of events leading up to it.

But that's neither here nor there. The type of repercussions you describe
would also occur in a situation like a shadow war, which is what I was
trying to explain, thank you very much.

> > either, but FASA seems to like re-entering the status quo. Obviously,
there
> > are repercussions, and the end of the effects of such a plot are nowhere
in
> > sight, but if corps won't hire shadowrunners, ever, at all, then we're
out
> > of a roleplaying game, neh?
>
> My point exactly. Your idea would change the game from "getting hired to
> commit crimes and get away with it" to "let's blow up a factory b/c the
> corp wants to kill us". Personally, I wouldn't go for that.

Well, gee, I'm sorry. I don't like RA:S, either, so I don't run it. I'm
really sorry you don't like the idea, but I do, and I think it has a great
deal of potential. I certainly don't perceive there being problems with it
on the scale you do.

If you don't like it, don't run it. No one's going to force you to. Hell, I
wouldn't ever expect FASA to print such a thing; I just think it would be
cool. A thousand pardons for liking a stupid idea.

> > > > I think a corp vs. shadowrunner war would be fun.
> > >
> > > For about a day, IMO. I think you're overestimating the power of
runners
> > > who don't have corp backing or anyone paying their expenses.
> >
> > Sure. And you're telling me that no single man could, say, kill the
> > president of the United States. Sure.
>
> SR is a very different world from ours. And I'm not saying that.

My point is, a single professional criminal could make a hell of an impact
on a company. A single man with a truck full of fertilizer blew up a
government building. Can you imagine what a determined, organised,
well-trained group of people could do to a group of corporations who rely at
least partially on public relations? Oh, I can...

> > A hundred runners with malice in their hearts could really screw up a
> > megacorp or two. No, they couldn't kill them, but they could hurt the
bottom
> > line pretty bad. Information piracy. Bombings. Interferance with
delivery or
> > production runs. 1% of a corp's bottom line is a lot of money. And if
> > someone got it in their head to assassinate the head of a megacorp or
two,
> > it wouldn't be too hard to execute. Imagine today; don't you think that
a
> > hundred professional killers could kill Bill Gates and Scott MacNealy?
Or a
> > thousand? Do you think there might be repercussions if they did that?
>
> Except today's CEO's don't live in guarded Arcologies with the best
protection
> money can buy. Assassinating a first-world president in 2000 is probably
> easy by comparison. And most Megacorps aren't so dependent on one person
> (except Ares, Cross and Yamatetsu).

I disagree, primarily because I don't run SR the same way you probably do.
In my world, I can't even conceive of the sort of security that would make
it impossible for someone to be killed by a group of shadowrunners. Sure,
you can lock them in a little room full of monowire and nerve gas, protected
by millions of cyberzombies and initiate mages, but who the hell would let
them? I wouldn't be a CEO under those circumstances. When would I see my
family? When would I play golf? I'm not a CEO *all* the time; I'm just a
person, with real needs and desires.

And, yes, few corps are dependant on a single person for their existance.
However, the PR blow and the blow to morale would be extreme. And let me
tell you, switches of CEOs make big waves in a company. Reorganisation,
restructuring, leadership shifts; a nightmare.

> > Do you think that there are a hundred shadowrunners? A thousand?
>
> In a city like Seattle, I'd say there were maybe 300 people who could
> really claim the mantle of Shadowrunner. Of those, maybe 50 with any
> real power of their own. Most of whom I'm sure could retire if they
> really wanted to.

That's enough. If one man is enough, 300 is plenty.
Message no. 10
From: Dave Mowbray dave_mowbray@*****.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:48:34 -0500
Strago wrote:
>(I like it when demand for runners shoots through the roof. Their room to
>negotiate becomes maybe, at most, 2000¥ and that makes me happy.)

Ummmm.... when demand is high they can negotiate MORE not less... unless I
missed something there...
-Dave
Message no. 11
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:57:07 -0500
Dave Mowbray wrote:

> Strago wrote:
> >(I like it when demand for runners shoots through the roof. Their room to
> >negotiate becomes maybe, at most, 2000¥ and that makes me happy.)
>
> Ummmm.... when demand is high they can negotiate MORE not less... unless I
> missed something there...
> -Dave

DOH! DOH! DOH! Bad JOSH BAD JOSH BAD JOSH!!!
Cause and effect, right? More runs=less runners. Less runs=if you won't do it
at the current price I'll get someone else. DOH!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message no. 12
From: John Jacobsma j.jacobsma@************.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:57:48 -0600
Steven A. Tinner wrote:
>
> So my question is this ... What other theme years would you like to see for
> SR? What would the theme cover, and how would you promote it?

Here's a couple:

<sarcasm><cynicism>How about the Year of Releasing Product on Schedule,
or the Year of Finally Finishing Third Edition Core Rules, or my
favorite, the Year of Publishing Stuff that isn't a Rehash or Revision
of Stuff that's been Published Before?</cynicism></sarcasm>

Honestly, instead of these grandiose plans that always go astray, I wish
they would just estimate better. Whenever I go to the "What's Up with
Shadowrun?" seminar at GenCon, the line developer has a plan of one or
more products a month. They've never been able to keep up a pace like
that for the whole year. It's closer to one every two months, although
they sometimes do a little better than that. I wish they would just
admit that to themselves, and plan accordingly.

The Year of the Comet might have been really cool *last* year, when
there was some real-world anxiety concerning Y2K. This year, after the
non-event that was the turn-of-the-(not-quite)-millenium, YotC is just
another set of adventure threads. Yawn. (But, I'll probably buy it.)
Don't get me wrong, I like most of the stuff that's come out, but it
never lives up to expectations, mostly because it takes too long.
--
ttfn,
John Jacobsma <j.jacobsma@************.com>
Message no. 13
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:41:47 EST
In a message dated 2/15/00 9:53:31 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
bluewizard@*****.com writes:

> 1. Year of Conflict - featuring open war between Atzlan and the CAS. A nice
> gimmick would be to relese two seperate book for this, one covering the CAS
> forces and offensives, and one covering the Azzies. Giving GM's and players
> the option of choosing sides in the conflict.

Actually, the "Survival of the Fittest" is the theme IIRC after YotC. But,
the idea you give here would also work there too IMO.

> 2. Year of Space - with a Space exploration theme.

That is going to be covered with the Year of the Comet stuff I believe.

> I could go for a Year of the Critter too. Each month FASA could release a
> small critter themed adventure - along the lines of their old line of
> adventure books, or even something the size of the quickstart rules.

ACK!!! Steve, are you nuts??? The workload for this alone would be nuts
IMO. However, doing some kind of "critter expansion" would be okay, if it
were part of something else (perhaps as part of the "Target: Awakened Lands
book, critter inserts for some of the regions?).

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 14
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:52:00 -0500
>> I could go for a Year of the Critter too. Each month FASA could release
a
>> small critter themed adventure - along the lines of their old line of
>> adventure books, or even something the size of the quickstart rules.
>
>ACK!!! Steve, are you nuts??? The workload for this alone would be nuts
>IMO. However, doing some kind of "critter expansion" would be okay, if it
>were part of something else (perhaps as part of the "Target: Awakened Lands
>book, critter inserts for some of the regions?).

Not nuts. I just beleive in MORE lead time.
As you said, the next two years are essentially fleshed out.
However, I see no reason why FASA could not follow Pinnacle's example on a
critter book.
When Pinnacle wanted to do their Deadlands book Rascals, Varmints and
Critters, they tapped their players for ideas.
Less than one year later they released RV&C, with several dozen critters in
it, along with short fiction peices for each, and some adventure seeds.
The only thing offered the contributing writers was a chance to see their
creation in print.
RV&C was one of Pinnacle's best selling books in the Deadlands line!

With a three year lead in, and the sheer number of fans that SR has, I see
NO reason why FASA could not publish 12 SMALL books each detailing one new
critter, and an adventure to go with it.
Something along the lines of Pinnacle's Dime Novels even (Gee - can you tell
I'm quite impressed with Pinnacle? ;-))

IMO FASA is doing a great job right now.
These comments are not meant to be a rant about FASA at all!
Rather, this is just something that I think would be popular, would sell
well, and could be done without too much trouble.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
" If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college." -
Louis Black
Message no. 15
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:54:44 -0500
At 12:08 PM 2/15/00 -0500, Richard Tomasso wrote:

>Bug City was an event, not part of some Year Of plotline. And things are
>different and it did have an effect - it pushed the Mob out of Chicago, it
>was an election year issue, we finally saw insect spirits for real, we found
>out Ares has nukes, Detroit gained some importance as an economic center.
>
AND...

The Bugs are still around. That in and of itself is a lasting effect, no?
Plus we have Free Bugs, the Voids in Chicago, and FAB 3. I'd say the Bug
City plot had a nice lasting effect.

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net == bull22@***********.com == bull@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"She's already a plot device, might as well make it legal!"
-- Gahbardi, Ghede Houngan
Message no. 16
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:38:10 +0200
abortion_engine wrote:
>
> From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.com>
> > So my question is this ... What other theme years would you like to see
> for
> > SR? What would the theme cover, and how would you promote it?
> >
> > 1. Year of Conflict - featuring open war between Atzlan and the CAS. A
> nice
> > gimmick would be to relese two seperate book for this, one covering the
> CAS
> > forces and offensives, and one covering the Azzies. Giving GM's and
> players
> > the option of choosing sides in the conflict.
>
> This is the big one for me. And I'd like to see the War be a little more
> widespread. [Of course, I'd like it to be in Europe, instead, so we could
> re-explore Britain and Germany, but hey...and we could call it Barsaive at
> War, and confuse everyone. :) ]
>
> I'd like to see the entirety of North and South America slowly dragged into
> a war. Alliances, lies, diplomacy, combat, fun for the whole family. Make
> the eventual "sides" into three or four warring factions, as opposed to the
> standard "two opposing forces and their allies." Play with [logical]
> military hardware and tactics.
>

This gives me so many ideas! The "enemy" could hire the runners instead
of using their own commandos, for the same reasons as the corps - cheap,
deniable, expendable assets. With the added complication that your
government will go to much greater lengths to catch you than any corp,
since the issue is treason, and not some silly old bottom-line. Or
maybe some corp decides that the war is damaging their foreign market,
and it's time to, ahem, interfere.

And it also gives you such great opportunities to really screw the
balance of power - Reshape the world to fit *your* ideals!


[snip]
>
> I think a corp vs. shadowrunner war would be fun.

This really appeals to me as revenge against my Werewolf: The Apocalypse
GM who's constantly throwing such plotlines at us :-) Let *him* see
what it's like to be constantly running from a vastly superior enemy,
and completely unable to achieve *anything*, and completely in the dark
about *everything*. Oh yes!

I'm going to do this :-) I really am :-)
--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com

QVANTI CANICVLA ILLE IN FENESTRA
Message no. 17
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:47:51 +0200
abortion_engine wrote:
>
>
> Do you think that there are a hundred shadowrunners? A thousand?
>

Interesting question... Just how many shadowrunners *are* there? How
many amateur small-time crooks who *think* they're shadowrunners? How
many *good* shadowrunners (on par with the legends, like fastjack and
the like)? How widespread are they? What are the odds of that guy in
the pub having a quiet drink being a shadowrunner?
--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com

QVANTI CANICVLA ILLE IN FENESTRA
Message no. 18
From: Hunter griffinhq@****.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 01:50:42 -0500
On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:38:10 +0200 Allen Versfeld <moe@*******.com>
writes:
> abortion_engine wrote:
> >
> [snip]
> >
> > I think a corp vs. shadowrunner war would be fun.
>
> This really appeals to me as revenge against my Werewolf: The
> Apocalypse
> GM who's constantly throwing such plotlines at us :-) Let *him* see
> what it's like to be constantly running from a vastly superior
> enemy,
> and completely unable to achieve *anything*, and completely in the
> dark
> about *everything*. Oh yes!
>
> I'm going to do this :-) I really am :-)
>
Heh.
Check my website for some rather interesting ideas.

*************************************************************************
********************
Griffin Industries
"A Shadowrunner's Corp."

http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/Griffin/index.html

________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 19
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:11:06 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: Allen Versfeld <moe@*******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: Year of ... ?


>abortion_engine wrote:
>>
>>
>> Do you think that there are a hundred shadowrunners? A thousand?
>>
>
>Interesting question... Just how many shadowrunners *are* there? How
>many amateur small-time crooks who *think* they're shadowrunners? How
>many *good* shadowrunners (on par with the legends, like fastjack and
>the like)? How widespread are they? What are the odds of that guy in
>the pub having a quiet drink being a shadowrunner?
>--
>Allen Versfeld


I do know that by using the second ed rules (Im going to buy 3rd ed soon,
honest!) in terms of Karma and reputation, you need over 500 karma before
anyone has a real chance of knowing your reputation. Characters tend to
start losing their fun after about 100, so I have never run a character
anywhere near the novel characters level, so I'd say that very few of us
have ever had real shadowrunners. I'd reckon that there would be as many
real runners around as there are today (their equivalent, anyway) just there
are a lot more lower level wannabes like all of us.
Message no. 20
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 07:58:02 -0600
From: Simon Fuller
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 1:11 AM

> I do know that by using the second ed rules (Im going to buy 3rd ed
> soon, honest!) in terms of Karma and reputation, you need over 500
> karma before anyone has a real chance of knowing your reputation.

Okay, I'm with you here so far.

> Characters tend to start losing their fun after about 100...

But here you lost me. You must get bored with a character very quickly,
since 100 Karma isn't all that much (25 runs, if you get 4 Karma per run),
which from my experience, means a couple of skill increases, maybe an
initiation if you're magical, and a couple of 1-point attribute
increases...at which point, also in my experience, the fun is just getting
started. For me as a player, anyway; usually my characters get deeper and
deeper into the kim-chi (sp?) at this point, but I don't play this game to
be on top all the time.

> ...so I have never run a character anywhere near the novel characters
> level, so I'd say that very few of us have ever had real shadowrunners.

Speak for yourself. I can name a few here who have had characters reach
those levels (I've had a couple myself over the years, in Dancer and Aries).
Bull has, well, Bull, who's a legend in his own right. K has Padre. I'm
sure a few of the others here have examples (Sebastian Weirs has Mongoose,
who I seem to recall being on that level).

Most of us don't...wait, let me try that again, since I don't presume to
speak for everybody. Many of us don't play this game to play gutterpunks
who want to stay gutterpunks. This is an adventure game, and to me, that
means that the characters need to be the heroes at some point. (Did I
mention that I dislike "cyberpunk" intensely as more than a means to an
end?) So my character might start off as a low-level street mage, but I
intend to make him grow so that he can be the next Man of Many Names
someday.

When I GM a campaign, I have the same basic goals for the PCs in it. It
might happen, it might not, and I don't just hand them things if I can avoid
it (I have two or three of my players on the list who will testify to that),
but I guess I have a more cinematic approach to a lot of things. I don't
like making things so horrible for the character that they can't make things
better on some level.

So I guess the object of this post, and of the game, is that players should
be striving to become legends, and that they shouldn't give up early.

But it ain't my game you're playing, so if that's how you like it...go for
it. But I would be looking for a different game.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 21
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:34:07 -0500 (EST)
Steven A. Tinner wrote:
>
> >> I could go for a Year of the Critter too. Each month FASA could release
> >> small critter themed adventure - along the lines of their old line of
> >
> >ACK!!! Steve, are you nuts??? The workload for this alone would be nuts
> >IMO. However, doing some kind of "critter expansion" would be okay, if
it
> >were part of something else (perhaps as part of the "Target: Awakened Lands
> >book, critter inserts for some of the regions?).
>
> Not nuts. I just beleive in MORE lead time.
> However, I see no reason why FASA could not follow Pinnacle's example on a
> critter book.
> When Pinnacle wanted to do their Deadlands book Rascals, Varmints and
> Critters, they tapped their players for ideas.

Managing lots of fan submissions is much harder than assigning the work
to a group of freelancers. Mike's got enough work to do w/o having to sort
through 1000 (or even 100) submissions to find the 10-20 really good ones.
At which point he could then start making writing assignments.


> With a three year lead in, and the sheer number of fans that SR has, I see
> NO reason why FASA could not publish 12 SMALL books each detailing one new
> critter, and an adventure to go with it.

Ignoring that FASA publishes only 8 SR titles per year, this would involve
a lot of work and be the only material coming out for SR for a whole year.
Unless FASA was damn sure most of SR players would buy most of these books
this strategy could kill sales (and thus the game). One critter and one
adventure, even with some fiction would likely be a 64pp book. And with my
suspected market segment, FASA would have to sell it for $12 to make a profit.
Kinda expensive for a one-shot adventure.


> Rather, this is just something that I think would be popular, would sell
> well, and could be done without too much trouble.

I think you underestimate the time involved in producing game material.
And critter books like this one would be more suited to GMs rather than
players, which reduces sales and would increase the cost per book.

I have no problem with another critter book (tho I'm not sure we need much
more than what's in the GM pack). From a business perspective it makes more
sense to put the effort into one (or two) good-sized Critter Compendium style
book with some fiction and adventure seeds rather than 12 small books which
would eat up the entire production schedule.


> Something along the lines of Pinnacle's Dime Novels even (Gee - can you tell
> I'm quite impressed with Pinnacle? ;-))

That would be a better idea. At least we'd start to see more SR fiction. :)
They are doing something like this for Crimson Skies.
Message no. 22
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:15:04 +1100
>So I guess the object of this post, and of the game, is that players should
>be striving to become legends, and that they shouldn't give up early.
>
>But it ain't my game you're playing, so if that's how you like it...go for
>it. But I would be looking for a different game.
>
I am looking, man, I am. I strongly suspect that our games give away far too
much money, and has too many muchkin characters (re-one) to keep it
interesting for very long. One member of the group particularly demands to
be GM 90% of the time, to the point of ruining the games of others if he
isn't GMing, then runs his own character so that he can still get lots of XP
and money. He thinks that by giving out ridiculous sums of money and power,
he keeps us interested. My main character regularly gives away or invests
money in 500 000 nuyen lots just so he doesn't have too much cash laying
around. In particular he hero-worships another player, who runs a physad
with bioware and regularly has initiative of over 40. When he is playing and
the GM is GMing, we other players often become little more than NPC's,
constantly denied choices.
My main character just reached 200 total Karma, and I'm not retiring him any
time soon.
Message no. 23
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 05:52:01 -0500
>> Something along the lines of Pinnacle's Dime Novels even (Gee - can you
tell
>> I'm quite impressed with Pinnacle? ;-))
>
>That would be a better idea. At least we'd start to see more SR fiction. :)
>They are doing something like this for Crimson Skies.

I cut and pasted this to the top of the message, because that's where I
should have put it in the first place.
This is what I had in mind for this project from the word GO.
I realize that doing a 64 page sourcebook for this concept would be a HUGE
gample for FASA.
I meant to imply that this should be a brand new format for the line,
something similar to Pinnacle's Dime Novel series.

>> When Pinnacle wanted to do their Deadlands book Rascals, Varmints and
>> Critters, they tapped their players for ideas.
>
>Managing lots of fan submissions is much harder than assigning the work
>to a group of freelancers. Mike's got enough work to do w/o having to sort
>through 1000 (or even 100) submissions to find the 10-20 really good ones.
>At which point he could then start making writing assignments.

Or he could handle the whole thing through the web.
Set a standard format for the submissions, and require them to all be in
plain text format.
Throw out any submissions that are improperly formatted, and HTMLize the
rest.
Put them on FASA's website, along with a voting system.

Alternatively, Mike could assign those freelancers & playtesters already
working with FASA to examine these submissions.
Use them to trim the excess fat from the 1000 submissions, and leave Mike
with maybe just a few dozen of the good ones.

>> With a three year lead in, and the sheer number of fans that SR has, I
see
>> NO reason why FASA could not publish 12 SMALL books each detailing one
new
>> critter, and an adventure to go with it.
>
>Ignoring that FASA publishes only 8 SR titles per year, this would involve
>a lot of work and be the only material coming out for SR for a whole year.
>Unless FASA was damn sure most of SR players would buy most of these books
>this strategy could kill sales (and thus the game).

One of the reasons I suggested the one a month format was to change the fact
that FASA only publishes 8 SR titles each year.
Not a month goes by I don;t hear SR players bitching & itching for new
product.
The demand is clearly there. If FASA realeased 1 new title for SR each
month, I'm certain they would sell.
However, I do see you point that doing twelve would tie up the whole
publishing schedule for the year.
How about this then, have these puppies produced a full year in advance.
There's no major plotline material in these, so if they are kept "generic"
enough, sweeping changes in the SR canon world won't affect the extra lead
time.
Once the books are ready well in advance, release them one every other
month, producing six of these titles, and six "regular titles".
This way, SR doesn;t have all its eggs in one basket, but still has new
material out there every month for the fans.

>One critter and one
>adventure, even with some fiction would likely be a 64pp book. And with my
>suspected market segment, FASA would have to sell it for $12 to make a
profit.
>Kinda expensive for a one-shot adventure.

Again, sorry.
I didn't mean to imply that this should be handled in that format.
Something along the lines of the Dime Novels would make this more feasible.

>> Rather, this is just something that I think would be popular, would sell
>> well, and could be done without too much trouble.
>
>I think you underestimate the time involved in producing game material.
>And critter books like this one would be more suited to GMs rather than
>players, which reduces sales and would increase the cost per book.

Not at all, that's why I suggested a three year lead time on the books in my
original post.
Right now FASA is working on anything from 18-6 months lead time on a book.
Doubling that to 36 months should be more than adequate to handle production
of an increased workload.
I've worked in publishing before, and I recognize that FASA has limited
manpower, but I hardly think this is unrealistic.
Stockpile the books, take your time working on them, and realse them only
after all 6 or 12 are complete.
After all, once the books are ready to print, the actual print to shelf time
is fairly minor.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
" If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college." -
Louis Black
Message no. 24
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:49:04 -0500 (EST)
Steven A. Tinner wrote:

> >Managing lots of fan submissions is much harder than assigning the work
> >to a group of freelancers. Mike's got enough work to do w/o having to sort
> >through 1000 (or even 100) submissions to find the 10-20 really good ones.
> >At which point he could then start making writing assignments.
>
> Or he could handle the whole thing through the web.

So he should rely on FASA's web page? Until they get an upgrade that isn't
an option.

> Throw out any submissions that are improperly formatted, and HTMLize the
> rest.

Which means he might as well examine them for content.


> Alternatively, Mike could assign those freelancers & playtesters already
> working with FASA to examine these submissions.

True.


> One of the reasons I suggested the one a month format was to change the fact
> that FASA only publishes 8 SR titles each year.
> Not a month goes by I don;t hear SR players bitching & itching for new
> product.

Well, they haven't been hitting 8/year lately. Once they get back to
normal I'm sure the bitching will subside.


> However, I do see you point that doing twelve would tie up the whole
> publishing schedule for the year.
> How about this then, have these puppies produced a full year in advance.

This would tie up the production schedule for a year. For books that may
not see daylight for a while. Even if you hold the art and layout until
you decided to publish the books, it would still eat up Mike and editorial's
time which could be spent on other products. Even freelancing the editing
could put a cramp into the schedule.
Message no. 25
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:51:43 -0500 (EST)
Excerpts from ShadowRN: 17-Feb-100 Re: Year of ... ? by "Steven A.
Tinner"@*****
> I meant to imply that this should be a brand new format for the line,
> something similar to Pinnacle's Dime Novel series.

Okay, you've been raving about Pinnacle's Dime Novel format for a
couple of days now. Could you give us a quick description? (Is this
the web-based fan submission with freelance editing you proposed for
FASA elsewhere in this post?)

Mark
Message no. 26
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:35:08 EST
In a message dated 2/17/00 10:51:00 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
rtomasso@*******.com writes:

> > >Managing lots of fan submissions is much harder than assigning the work
> > >to a group of freelancers. Mike's got enough work to do w/o having to
> sort
> > >through 1000 (or even 100) submissions to find the 10-20 really good
ones.
> > >At which point he could then start making writing assignments.
> >
> > Or he could handle the whole thing through the web.
>
> So he should rely on FASA's web page? Until they get an upgrade that isn't
> an option.

For some reason Richard, I don't think he means through the "Web Page", but
via "the Web" in general. Of course, I could be wrong.

> > Throw out any submissions that are improperly formatted, and HTMLize the
> > rest.
>
> Which means he might as well examine them for content.

And throw away a LOT more time. If I see him online tonight, maybe I'll
bring this up *JUST* to see what he thinks of the idea... <j/k>

> > Alternatively, Mike could assign those freelancers & playtesters already
> > working with FASA to examine these submissions.
>
> True.

Interesting thought, though I'm not sure that would work readily. At this
point, it would switch from the Line Developer's actions to the Editorial
Staff's actions.

> > One of the reasons I suggested the one a month format was to change the
> fact
> > that FASA only publishes 8 SR titles each year.
> > Not a month goes by I don;t hear SR players bitching & itching for new
> > product.
>
> Well, they haven't been hitting 8/year lately. Once they get back to
> normal I'm sure the bitching will subside.

Not a chance. I think we all know there are WAY too many people out there
that do nothing BUT bitch, moan, complain and general whine about stuff they
aren't satisfied with in the slightest.

> > However, I do see you point that doing twelve would tie up the whole
> > publishing schedule for the year.
> > How about this then, have these puppies produced a full year in advance.
>
> This would tie up the production schedule for a year. For books that may
> not see daylight for a while. Even if you hold the art and layout until
> you decided to publish the books, it would still eat up Mike and
editorial's
> time which could be spent on other products. Even freelancing the editing
> could put a cramp into the schedule.

Yes. Granted, I do think that finding a way to "up" the amount of fiction
that is being produced by FASA for SR would be nice, I think there may be
better ways of handling it ... some of which are still in the thinking stages
(where they need to be for the moment IMO).


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 27
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:24:13 -0600
From: Steven A. Tinner
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2000 4:52 AM

> I meant to imply that this should be a brand new format for the line,
> something similar to Pinnacle's Dime Novel series.

I'm not sure that using a format that Pinnacle has deep-sixed as an example
is such a sterling idea, Steven.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 28
From: JonSzeto@***.com JonSzeto@***.com
Subject: Year of ... ?
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 23:07:42 EST
"Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.com> wrote,

> When Pinnacle wanted to do their Deadlands book Rascals, Varmints and
> Critters, they tapped their players for ideas.
> Less than one year later they released RV&C, with several dozen critters in
> it, along with short fiction peices for each, and some adventure seeds.
> The only thing offered the contributing writers was a chance to see their
> creation in print.
> RV&C was one of Pinnacle's best selling books in the Deadlands line!

When I talked with the Pinnacle developers at Origins this past July,
Shane Hensley (one of the product designers there) told me that it took
them twice as much editing and development work for RV&C than normal
to "fix" player submissions. As a result, they decided not to do that
again for Monsters, Muties & Misfits (the "monster book" for their Hell on
Earth game).

> With a three year lead in, and the sheer number of fans that SR has, I see
> NO reason why FASA could not publish 12 SMALL books each detailing one new
> critter, and an adventure to go with it.
> Something along the lines of Pinnacle's Dime Novels even (Gee - can you tell
> I'm quite impressed with Pinnacle? ;-))

One thing I should also note is that Pinnacle lately has been moving
away from the Dime Novel format and back to the "traditional" adventure
book. Apparently they require about almost as much development work as a
regular sourcebook (despite the smaller size), and while sales have been
good, they haven't been good enough to justify the time and labor put
in.

(For those of you who don't know, the Dime Novels are digest-sized
books, about 5-1/2" x 8-1/2", or 14 cm x 22 cm, in size. They're about
64-pages long, and the word count is slightly less than one of the
adventures in Corporate Punishment, Missions, or Shadows of the
Underworld. It contains both a short story and an adventure based on
that story, so the adventure is actually half the size of a one of the
Shadowrun adventures from the books I mentioned.)

-- Jon

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Year of ... ?, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

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Thwap!