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Message no. 1
From: danturek@*******.com (D. T)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:12:39 -0500
graht1 had replied:

>Ah, the good old FAB bat debates :) There were some significant
>contradictions/lack of definition in 2nd ed SR with regards to astral space
>and living auras. Make a net out of living material (FAB filled tubbing,
>or living plant material). Drop the net on an astral mage so it traps the
>mage between the net and the ground (neither of which the mage can pass
>through). What happens? Does the mage's astral form hold the net up? Or
>does the net crush the mage, destroying his astral form? Or, is the mage's
>astral form squishable? 3rd ed cleared up this an other problems.

Um. So what does happen? How is it different than a dual nature critter
grabbing a mage?

Phys Ads will always be better than Samurai, because you can always add
cyber, but not magic. Of course, this assumes you survive runs and get paid
so you can afford cyber and perhaps some geasa. This has led to far too many
Phys Ads that get cyber in the campaigns I have seen. I am considering
making it more expensive for Phys Ads - like the same as being a full
magicker. Anyone else have this situation?

What currently exists in game for hiding your aura that a mundane can use?

Has anyone gone through the books and made a timeline when each piece of
cyber/bio came out? I am in 2050 campaigns, and one is starting 2051. Whoo
hoo, new stuff! We even found an Alpha clinic (but I am afraid of the people
that run it).

Ditto question for magic. Spells, metamagics, enchanting - all that evolved
from some pretty basic things. Would there be new totems in 2051 that didn't
exist in 2050? Bugs and otaku/Deep Resonance come to mind. I would not be
surprised if 2075 had corrupt "totems" of the Enemy and allowed
summoning/binding Shedim and the like. Has anyone made a new metamagic in
their campaign?

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Message no. 2
From: graht1@*******.com (David Buehrer)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:09:15 -0700
>From: "D. T" <danturek@*******.com>
>
>graht1 had replied:
>
>>Ah, the good old FAB bat debates :) There were some significant
>>contradictions/lack of definition in 2nd ed SR with regards to astral
>>space and living auras. Make a net out of living material (FAB filled
>>tubbing, or living plant material). Drop the net on an astral mage so it
>>traps the mage between the net and the ground (neither of which the mage
>>can pass through). What happens? Does the mage's astral form hold the
>>net up? Or does the net crush the mage, destroying his astral form? Or,
>>is the mage's astral form squishable? 3rd ed cleared up this an other
>>problems.
>
>Um. So what does happen? How is it different than a dual nature critter
>grabbing a mage?

We never did figure it out :/

-Graht

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Message no. 3
From: ra002585@**.unicamp.br (Bira)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 15:27:18 -0300 (BRT)
ra002585@***.unicamp.br
>
> We never did figure it out :/
>
> -Graht

Well, in 3rd Edition, a mundane livng net goes right through the mage... A
dual-natured one would probably be held up by his astral form, since two
astrally active auras affect each other directly.


--
Bira
http://www24.brinkster.com/shadowlandbr/index.html ou
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br
Message no. 4
From: davek@***.lonestar.org (David Kettler)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 20:34:59 +0000
On Sat, Mar 13, 2004 at 11:12:39AM -0500, D. T wrote:
>
> Phys Ads will always be better than Samurai, because you can always add
> cyber, but not magic. Of course, this assumes you survive runs and get paid
> so you can afford cyber and perhaps some geasa. This has led to far too
> many Phys Ads that get cyber in the campaigns I have seen. I am considering
> making it more expensive for Phys Ads - like the same as being a full
> magicker. Anyone else have this situation?
>

I disagree with that. Yeah, you can give cyber to a physad but you end up costing them
magic points and therefore powers. That can be offset by initiating, but that takes a
whole lot of karma which the street sam could have just spent on improving natural
attributes and skills rather than spending it to just stay in the same place. If your
players are doing this just by taking lots of cheap geasa then you're letting them off too
easy. It is, unfortunately, easy to abuse the geasa system but as the GM you have the
final say on what is allowed. If a geasa does not seriously impact the use of their
abilities then you're making it too easy for them.

I will admit that it's harder to significantly improve a character who is already cybered
out the wazoo (since basically the only way to do it is replace existing mods with
expensive beta or better mods), however any heavily cybered character will tend to have
better stats starting out and as I said above they can put all their karma into attributes
and skills to get constant small improvements. Where physads have the huge advantage is
subtlety, especially if they initiate and take masking. However in a straight-out fight
the street sam will usually win.

> What currently exists in game for hiding your aura that a mundane can use?
>

None, that I know of. I would be very interested if such a thing existed so please
correct me if I'm wrong.

> Has anyone gone through the books and made a timeline when each piece of
> cyber/bio came out? I am in 2050 campaigns, and one is starting 2051. Whoo
> hoo, new stuff! We even found an Alpha clinic (but I am afraid of the
> people that run it).
>

Interesting idea. I don't know how to do it for every individual piece of equipment, but
you could at least do it by groups of equipment based on the sourcebook they came out in.
The general pecking order should go:
Main Sourcebook (but not 3rd edition because they consolidated some of the stuff...use an
older edition if you have it)
Street Sam Catalogue
Shadowtech (first appearance of bioware in here, but it was highly experimental and should
be considered extremely rare)
Fields of Fire (not much cyber, but they did introduce the smartlink II)
Cybertechnology

To get some dates look at the time/date stamps of the user comments for the different
pieces of equipment and keep in mind that the stuff had to be out at least a little while
before people started commenting. Then apply some common sense and GM discretion.

> Ditto question for magic. Spells, metamagics, enchanting - all that evolved
> from some pretty basic things. Would there be new totems in 2051 that
> didn't exist in 2050? Bugs and otaku/Deep Resonance come to mind. I would
> not be surprised if 2075 had corrupt "totems" of the Enemy and allowed
> summoning/binding Shedim and the like. Has anyone made a new metamagic in
> their campaign?
>

Again, follow the old sourcebooks and look at time/date stamps. Bug City has (naturally)
tons of information on the appearance of insect spirits.

--
Dave Kettler
davek@***.lonestar.org
http://davek.freeshell.org/
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Message no. 5
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:09:18 +0100
According to D. T, on Saturday 13 March 2004 17:12 the word on the street
was...

> Um. So what does happen? How is it different than a dual nature critter
> grabbing a mage?

It's different becausethe FAB net is not dual-natured (at least, it wasn't
under SRII rules, a certain reply from Mike Mulvihill notwithstanding :)
So that meant that there was the problem of a fully-astral being
supporting an object that was not astrally active...

> Has anyone gone through the books and made a timeline when each piece of
> cyber/bio came out? I am in 2050 campaigns, and one is starting 2051.
> Whoo hoo, new stuff! We even found an Alpha clinic (but I am afraid of
> the people that run it).

Not for each individual piece of equipment, but that's not necessary. If
you know when each book appeared during the SR timeline (though it doesn't
have the latest books, take a look at
http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/shadowrun/sourcebook%20dates.html -- and don't
forget that %20 :) you also have the dates when each item in the book was
definitely available. If you want to judge it on a per-item bases, just
look at the dates on the shadowcomments for the item in the book: the item
must have been available by the time the first one was made.

> Ditto question for magic. Spells, metamagics, enchanting - all that
> evolved from some pretty basic things. Would there be new totems in 2051
> that didn't exist in 2050? Bugs and otaku/Deep Resonance come to mind. I
> would not be surprised if 2075 had corrupt "totems" of the Enemy and
> allowed summoning/binding Shedim and the like. Has anyone made a new
> metamagic in their campaign?

This is a bit more difficult, because certainly for spells, they're
basically around whenever someone designs them. Metamagical techniques,
foci, etc. are not that easy, but would still be more likely to appear at
whatever time the GM wants them to, than equipment. This because gear
generally needs some company to design and make it, whereas magic is
mostly a mental exercise that depends more on the insights gained into it,
than on corporate R&D and manufacturing...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could it be more truth than fable?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Message no. 6
From: shane@**************.freeserve.co.uk (Shane Mclean)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:27:56 -0000
> Has anyone gone through the books and made a timeline when each piece of
> cyber/bio came out? I am in 2050 campaigns, and one is starting 2051. Whoo
> hoo, new stuff! We even found an Alpha clinic (but I am afraid of the
people
> that run it).

I did something like that for a game ages ago, so it doesn't have anything
after the Cybertechnology book (2057, IIRC). I went through each mopnth from
March 2051 (start of my game) and using the books for reference came up with
when each thing would be Limted Availibility (i.e. R&D, Corp, etc), and when
it would be Street Availible (i.e. General sale). One of the players was
obsessive about new tech so he poured a fair amount of money into a fixer of
his to keep him up to date on new stuff, and he even get a few bits of kit
ahead of date by stealing them. I also did one for Bioware. And a complete
rolled SOTA list for ten years. All this was back in my young, geeky, single
days when I had the time to do it... :-)

Remember this is all my judgement for my game, so yours may vary and has
none of the new cyber in M&M (I still run back in the good old days of the
eraly 2050's as I prefer it to the metaplot stuff that came later so
updating to add on is pointless). If you want it I can send it to you if you
gimme a mail to send it to.

Shane
(travelling_shane*at*yahoo.co.uk)
Message no. 7
From: james@****.uow.edu.au (James Niall Zealey)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 09:15:25 +1100
>>> ...Make a net out of living material (FAB
>>> filled tubbing, or living plant material). Drop the net on an astral
>>> mage so it traps the mage between the net and the ground (neither of
>>> which the mage can pass through). What happens?....
>>
>>
>> Um. So what does happen? How is it different than a dual nature
>> critter grabbing a mage?
>
>
> We never did figure it out :/
>

Actually, it's not covered in base SR3. I believe that magic in the
shadows DOES cover it though.

It has a section on what happens if one aura is forced through another
via some means.

Basically the two auras fight it out. The losing aura, depending upon
what sort of aura it is, either:
a) stops being dual if this is possible - if you're an astrally
percieving mage and you deliverately walk through a ward, this would
happen to you
b) gets disrupted and takes (twice opposing force)D damage. Ouch. This
happens to spirits, wards, shifters, ghouls, FAB nets, projecting mages
and the like.
Message no. 8
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 06:43:47 -0800 (PST)
> >>> ...Make a net out of living material (FAB
> >>> filled tubbing, or living plant material). Drop
> the net on an astral
> >>> mage so it traps the mage between the net and
> the ground (neither of
> >>> which the mage can pass through). What
> happens?....

I suppose one should keep in mind that the mage will
have to be utterly surprised for this to happen.
Astral movement is very fast and I have my doubts as
to whether a creature in astral form, with its
inherent bonus initiative, will ever be very surprised
by anything happening in the physical world (such as a
net being chucked at it) and being unable to will
itself out of the way.
Of course there are plenty of possible exceptions to
this: think of a mage in an underground room where the
ceiling is covered by a net and the entryways just
activated their wards (or collapsed, though in that
case it's preferable not to disrupt the intended
victim)...

Cheers,

nevermelt

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Message no. 9
From: d_hyde@***.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:47:43 -0600
On Mar 30, 2004, at 8:43 AM, Jan Jaap van Poelgeest wrote:

>>>>> ...Make a net out of living material (FAB
>>>>> filled tubbing, or living plant material). Drop
>> the net on an astral
>>>>> mage so it traps the mage between the net and
>> the ground (neither of
>>>>> which the mage can pass through). What
>> happens?....
>
> I suppose one should keep in mind that the mage will
> have to be utterly surprised for this to happen.
> Astral movement is very fast and I have my doubts as
> to whether a creature in astral form,

exception to this point is dual natured beings, they're only as fast in
astral space as they are in physical space ;)
Message no. 10
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:56:42 -0800 (PST)
> exception to this point is dual natured beings,
> they're only as fast in
> astral space as they are in physical space ;)

Intuitively I'd say such a situation is trivial, given
that both the net and the creature are dual-natured in
such a case; i.e: it functions the same way a normal
net would against a mundane creature.
It would be impossible for a dual-natured creature
caught in a dual-natured net to project astrally (can
dual-natured creatures [e.g.: a dragon] do this? I
forget), hence providing an effective restraint method
for such critters (their powers might not be able pass
through either).
Under such an interpretation, runners might take along
some astral rope (FAB-filled tubing) to tie a
paracritter up (or try to lassoo astral forms with
said rope and thereby disrupt them).

Which has me wondering, could FAB, or similarly
astrally active materials create a mist or a barrier
respectively, through which one doesn't have LOS? It
might be a great reason to have a dense layer of mould
growing on ones' walls or, in the case of a corp. have
said mould resemble a paintjob. Since a mould could
count as a single organism, this might give it an
insane body rating. Perhaps the mould could run out of
control, at which point the runners have to break into
a corp facility that has grown itself shut (throw in
an item/person-fetch-quest and you've got a run).

Cheers,

nevermelt

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Message no. 11
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:08:30 +0200
According to Jan Jaap van Poelgeest, on Tuesday 30 March 2004 16:43 the
word on the street was...

> Of course there are plenty of possible exceptions to
> this: think of a mage in an underground room where the
> ceiling is covered by a net and the entryways just
> activated their wards (or collapsed, though in that
> case it's preferable not to disrupt the intended
> victim)...

It won't work in SR3, but in SRII there was quite a simple situation in
which something like this could be done: build an underground corridor
with FAB-filled doors that you can slam shut in front of and behind the
astral magician, then turn it into a Star Wars trash compacter by means of
a moving, FAB-filled wall.

This can be defeated in SR3 because you can move through the earth (albeit
very slowly), which was impossible in SRII.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Those who ignore history are doomed to keep liking crappy dance
covers of great songs.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:04:09 -0800 (PST)
> This can be defeated in SR3 because you can move
> through the earth (albeit
> very slowly), which was impossible in SRII.

I'll cover the walls in MouldShield(tm), then... :)

Doesn't that resolve the situation of
astral-form-supporting-dual-natured-item, though? The
astral form ends up being forced into the ground, from
which it can escape, but very slowly, thereby
effectively being caught for a while (+8 target
numbers for being blinded, too?). If the ground is
covered with living material, otoh, disruption ensues.
Or, a net stuck on a ceiling might have an earthen pit
beneath it, whose walls are impermeable to astral
forms. Mage triggers trap (astrally triggered magic
fingers, w/ever), mage is caught and at massive
penalties. *inane giggling*

Cheers,

nevermelt

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Message no. 13
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:22:07 +0100
At 08:04 PM 3/30/2004, you wrote:
> > This can be defeated in SR3 because you can move
> > through the earth (albeit
> > very slowly), which was impossible in SRII.
>
>I'll cover the walls in MouldShield(tm), then... :)

Astrally attack the barrier, kill the dual natured mould.
SR3 includes Biofiber(tm) which is similar...
The Biofiber is a dual natured plant, if you attack it astrally then you
kill its physical form and you can pass through it.


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 14
From: davek@***.lonestar.org (David Kettler)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:56:58 +0000
On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 09:22:07PM +0100, Lone Eagle wrote:
> Astrally attack the barrier, kill the dual natured mould.
> SR3 includes Biofiber(tm) which is similar...
> The Biofiber is a dual natured plant, if you attack it astrally then you
> kill its physical form and you can pass through it.
>

Yes, indeed. Something people tend to forget about this discussion of dual-natured walls
and nets and so forth: I would sure hate to be a mundane in a dual-natured house when
some visiting astral mage decided to ground a fireball into the place...

--
Dave Kettler
davek@***.lonestar.org
http://davek.freeshell.org/
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Message no. 15
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 23:02:52 +0200
> Yes, indeed. Something people tend to forget about this discussion of
> dual-natured walls and nets and so forth: I would sure hate to be a
> mundane in a dual-natured house when some visiting astral mage decided
> to ground a fireball into the place...

Well, except that grounding doesn't exist anymore in SR3 (was replaced
with focus addiction as the way to balance mages with too much foci).
Still, I wonder what'd happen if the house died? :)

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 16
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:09:21 -0800
On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:56:58 +0000
David Kettler <davek@***.lonestar.org> wrote:

> Yes, indeed. Something people tend to forget about this discussion of
> dual-natured walls and nets and so forth: I would sure hate to be a
> mundane in a dual-natured house when some visiting astral mage decided to
> ground a fireball into the place...
>
> Dave Kettler

I didn't think we grounded any spells anymore...
--Anders
Message no. 17
From: silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:15:49 -0500
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com [mailto:shadowrn-
> bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of David Kettler
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 3:57 PM
> To: Shadowrun Discussion
> Subject: Re: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
>
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2004 at 09:22:07PM +0100, Lone Eagle wrote:
> > Astrally attack the barrier, kill the dual natured mould.
> > SR3 includes Biofiber(tm) which is similar...
> > The Biofiber is a dual natured plant, if you attack it astrally then you
> > kill its physical form and you can pass through it.
> >
>
> Yes, indeed. Something people tend to forget about this discussion of
> dual-natured walls and nets and so forth: I would sure hate to be a
> mundane in a dual-natured house when some visiting astral mage decided to
> ground a fireball into the place...
>

No more grounding in SR3
Message no. 18
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:54:47 -0800 (PST)
> Eagle wrote:
> > > Astrally attack the barrier, kill the dual
> natured mould.
> > > SR3 includes Biofiber(tm) which is similar...
> > > The Biofiber is a dual natured plant, if you
> attack it astrally then you
> > > kill its physical form and you can pass through
> it.

*rolls up sleeves* :)

Ok, how about mould/fibre/living stuff in a nutrient
solution carried in tubes/hollow partitions with a v.
high object resistance and a connection to a
(breeding) reservoir replenishing any dead organisms?
Somebody'd really have to want to trap the astrally
active thing in question to do this, but I guess it's
a nice way of keeping such things contained using only
physical means. Wonder if it'd block a ritual sending,
though.

Cheers,

nevermelt

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Message no. 19
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:55:21 +0200
According to Jan Jaap van Poelgeest, on Tuesday 30 March 2004 21:04 the
word on the street was...

> Doesn't that resolve the situation of
> astral-form-supporting-dual-natured-item, though?

No, it only highlighted it :) In SRII, the earth was considered a gigantic,
living entity, so you couldn't pass through it any more than you could
move through a plant, an animal or a person.

In SR3, you _can_ move through living beings (and the earth) for probably
exactly this reason.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Those who ignore history are doomed to keep liking crappy dance
covers of great songs.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:55:59 +0200
According to David Kettler, on Tuesday 30 March 2004 22:56 the word on the
street was...

> Yes, indeed. Something people tend to forget about this discussion of
> dual-natured walls and nets and so forth: I would sure hate to be a
> mundane in a dual-natured house when some visiting astral mage decided
> to ground a fireball into the place...

That's another thing you can't do in SR3 anymore, because it's now
impossible to cast physical spells in astral space.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Those who ignore history are doomed to keep liking crappy dance
covers of great songs.
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: pixelonpicnic@*******.com (Niels Sønderborg)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 12:57:50 +0200
Yup, Dragons and other magic-active sentient critters can astral project.

And too bad they removed grounding, eventhough it was quite unbalanced it
was hella fun :)

_________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 22
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:25:13 -0800 (PST)
Gurth:

> No, it only highlighted it :) In SRII, the earth was
> considered a gigantic, living entity,

So in SRII you could ground a spell into the earth?

Sounds like an epic plot to me :)

Cheers,

nevermelt



__________________________________
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Message no. 23
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:42:11 -0800
Niels Sønderborg wrote:
>
> Yup, Dragons and other magic-active sentient critters can
> astral project.
>
> And too bad they removed grounding, eventhough it was quite
> unbalanced it was hella fun :)
>

My group still uses it, though, merely because it can be oh so fun. (Well,
until the resident mage has it happen to him.)

*egmg*

Zeb

"Per Ardua ad Astra"
Message no. 24
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:30:56 +0200
According to Niels Sønderborg, on Wednesday 31 March 2004 12:57 the word on
the street was...

> And too bad they removed grounding, eventhough it was quite unbalanced
> it was hella fun :)

There's no reason not to keep it, though. If you understand well enough how
it worked, there really isn't anything in SR3 that prevents you from
keeping it -- aside from ditching the "no physical spells in astral space"
rule and keeping the grounding guidelines from the SRII rulebook handy,
you don't have to make any changes to the current magic system.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Those who ignore history are doomed to keep liking crappy dance
covers of great songs.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 25
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:34:16 +0200
According to Jan Jaap van Poelgeest, on Wednesday 31 March 2004 17:25 the
word on the street was...

> > No, it only highlighted it :) In SRII, the earth was
> > considered a gigantic, living entity,
>
> So in SRII you could ground a spell into the earth?

No -- the earth was considered _alive_, not _astrally_active_ :)

Under SR1 and SRII astral projection rules, you couldn't move through any
living thing[1] -- making plants like ivy and vines excellent as astral
security, and leading to interesting situations if you astrally project
and go hang in the path of an airliner full of people :)

[1] in practice, this meant "any living thing big enough for you to notice"
as otherwise you wouldn't be able to astrally project at all except in
sterile rooms, where you'd then be in astral darkness...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Those who ignore history are doomed to keep liking crappy dance
covers of great songs.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 26
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:42:40 -0500
At 05:57 AM 3/31/2004, Niels Sønderborg wrote:
>Yup, Dragons and other magic-active sentient critters can astral project.

Dual Nature beings cannot project unless they have Sorcery. Except for
spirits, the ability to project is not a facet of the being, it's a facet
of the being's training.

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 27
From: davek@***.lonestar.org (David Kettler)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:42:58 +0000
OK, so after having 10 people jumping down my throat telling me that grounding is gone I
think I got the picture...

This was a big "duh" moment for me...I realize that SR3 never said anything
about grounding, but then it never said anything about *not* grounding either. Old habits
die hard, I guess, and it just never occured to me that they would get rid of something
like that. It's part of Shadowrun lore! What about all the fiction out there that talks
about grounding? Besides, it adds so much flavor to games.

Oh well, I'm going to keep using grounding. It's too fun to stop ;)

--
Dave Kettler
davek@***.lonestar.org
http://davek.freeshell.org/
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Message no. 28
From: bluedragon7@***.ch (bluedragon7)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 00:06:33 +0200
>On Behalf Of Timothy J. Lanza

> At 05:57 AM 3/31/2004, Niels Sønderborg wrote:
> >Yup, Dragons and other magic-active sentient critters can astral project.
>
> Dual Nature beings cannot project unless they have Sorcery. Except for
> spirits, the ability to project is not a facet of the being, it's a facet
> of the being's training.

actually dual natured beings just need to be not-mundane to be able to
project.

so:
mundane ghouls cant
surged physads can

cya bluedragon7
Message no. 29
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:22:16 -0800
Bluedragon7 wrote:

>
> >On Behalf Of Timothy J. Lanza
>
> > At 05:57 AM 3/31/2004, Niels Sønderborg wrote:
> > >Yup, Dragons and other magic-active sentient critters can
> astral project.
> >
> > Dual Nature beings cannot project unless they have Sorcery.
> Except for
> > spirits, the ability to project is not a facet of the being, it's a
> > facet of the being's training.
>
> actually dual natured beings just need to be not-mundane to
> be able to project.
>
> so:
> mundane ghouls cant
> surged physads can
>
> cya bluedragon7
>

What? What book says a physad can astrally project?

Z

"Per Ardua ad Astra"
Message no. 30
From: The_Sarge@***.de (MatthÀus_Cebulla)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 00:27:02 +0200
[SNIP]
> > surged physads can
> >
> > cya bluedragon7
> >
>
> What? What book says a physad can astrally project?
>
> Z

As he said 'surged', probably the book with the comet.
('Year of the comet'? Sorry, tired and don't know the english
title too well. Sadly, I don't own it.)

Matthäus
Message no. 31
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:34:35 -0500
At 05:06 PM 3/31/2004, bluedragon7 wrote:
> >On Behalf Of Timothy J. Lanza
>
> > At 05:57 AM 3/31/2004, Niels Sønderborg wrote:
> > >Yup, Dragons and other magic-active sentient critters can astral project.
> >
> > Dual Nature beings cannot project unless they have Sorcery. Except for
> > spirits, the ability to project is not a facet of the being, it's a facet
> > of the being's training.
>
>actually dual natured beings just need to be not-mundane to be able to
>project.
>
>so:
>mundane ghouls cant
>surged physads can
>
>cya bluedragon7

Incorrect.

Critters, page 5...

"Dual beings with magical skills are capable of astral projection. They can
separate their astral bodies from their physical bodies, just as full
magicians do..."

Just because you're dual-natured, does /not/ mean you can make use of
magical skills. You need to be dual-natured /and/ a magician. The intent is
that dual-natured creatures are not /implicitly/ able to project, nor are
they /bound/ to their bodies if they would otherwise have the ability to
project.

SURGE, on the other hand, opens a whole other can of worms. By it's very
nature, you have to adjudicate it as a GM on a case-by-case basis.

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 32
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:35:34 -0500
At 04:42 PM 3/31/2004, David Kettler wrote:
>OK, so after having 10 people jumping down my throat telling me that
>grounding is gone I think I got the picture...
>
>This was a big "duh" moment for me...I realize that SR3 never said
>anything about grounding, but then it never said anything about *not*
>grounding either. Old habits die hard, I guess, and it just never occured
>to me that they would get rid of something like that. It's part of
>Shadowrun lore! What about all the fiction out there that talks about
>grounding? Besides, it adds so much flavor to games.

Most SR players I know (except for one, but he's got other issues) like to
keep the fiction out of their RP. There are too many authors with to many
ideas of their own that diverge from canon sourcebooks.

>Oh well, I'm going to keep using grounding. It's too fun to stop ;)

It's your game. Go for it.

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 33
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:36:45 -0500
At 05:34 PM 3/31/2004, Timothy J. Lanza wrote:
>"Dual beings with magical skills are capable of astral projection. They
>can separate their astral bodies from their physical bodies, just as full
>magicians do..."
>
>Just because you're dual-natured, does /not/ mean you can make use of
>magical skills. You need to be dual-natured /and/ a magician. The intent
>is that dual-natured creatures are not /implicitly/ able to project, nor
>are they /bound/ to their bodies if they would otherwise have the ability
>to project.
>
>SURGE, on the other hand, opens a whole other can of worms. By it's very
>nature, you have to adjudicate it as a GM on a case-by-case basis.

Also... note that being innately dual-natured is different from having the
capability to see astrally.

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 34
From: bluedragon7@***.ch (bluedragon7)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 03:58:31 +0200
Timothy J. Lanza:
> Incorrect.
>
> Critters, page 5...
>
> "Dual beings with magical skills are capable of astral
> projection. They can
> separate their astral bodies from their physical bodies, just as full
> magicians do..."

"full" implies, that an summoner who is also a dual being can project.

>
> Just because you're dual-natured, does /not/ mean you can make use of
> magical skills.

correct

> You need to be dual-natured /and/ a magician.

actually dual and able to use magical skills (and have a magic attribute,
just to prevent CZs from projecting as they can learn aura reading, a
magical skill)

> The
> intent is that dual-natured creatures are not /implicitly/ able to
project,

yes

> nor are
> they /bound/ to their bodies if they would otherwise have the ability to
> project.

no, not accurate enough because a summoner cant project, a dual natured
summoner can.

>
> SURGE, on the other hand, opens a whole other can of worms. By it's very
> nature, you have to adjudicate it as a GM on a case-by-case basis.

i am quite tired cat-like cat-shamans ;-)

> Also... note that being innately dual-natured is different from having the
> capability to see astrally.

surge can make an adept dual natured,..just as becoming a ghoul can.

cya bluedragon7
Message no. 35
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:27:01 -0500
At 08:58 PM 3/31/2004, bluedragon7 wrote:
>Timothy J. Lanza:
> > Incorrect.
> >
> > Critters, page 5...
> >
> > "Dual beings with magical skills are capable of astral
> > projection. They can
> > separate their astral bodies from their physical bodies, just as full
> > magicians do..."
>
>"full" implies, that an summoner who is also a dual being can project.

It implies exactly the opposite, actually. Summoners can only use one
magical skill, Conjuring.

> > Just because you're dual-natured, does /not/ mean you can make use of
> > magical skills.
>
>correct
>
> > You need to be dual-natured /and/ a magician.
>
>actually dual and able to use magical skills (and have a magic attribute,
>just to prevent CZs from projecting as they can learn aura reading, a
>magical skill)

This is a judgement call, but I don't consider Aura Reading a magical
skill. Conjuring, Enchanting, and Sorcery are the three magical skills. You
need to be a full magician, /capable/ of all three, in order to project.

The fact that a person is dual natured is irrelevant. The paragraph is
meant to illustrate that dual-natured magicians don't /loose/ astral
projection. It doesn't /grant/ the ability.

> > The intent is that dual-natured creatures are not /implicitly/ able to
> > project,
>
>yes
>
> > nor are they /bound/ to their bodies if they would otherwise have the
> > ability to project.
>
>no, not accurate enough because a summoner cant project, a dual natured
>summoner can.

This is where we disagree.

> > SURGE, on the other hand, opens a whole other can of worms. By it's very
> > nature, you have to adjudicate it as a GM on a case-by-case basis.
>
>i am quite tired cat-like cat-shamans ;-)

Dual-Charge Catnip/Defensive Grenades.

> > Also... note that being innately dual-natured is different from having the
> > capability to see astrally.
>
>surge can make an adept dual natured,..just as becoming a ghoul can.

Yes, but that /still/ doesn't make them capable of projecting.

The one case where I /might/ allow it is a Physical Magician, because they
can make use of all three skill I mentioned above (at least, I think they
can Conjure... I'm not positive) Even then, I probably wouldn't too much
abuse potential.

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 36
From: chris@*******.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:45:31 +1000
Records show that at 12:27 PM on Thursday 1/04/2004 AEDT, Timothy J. Lanza
advised:
>This is a judgement call, but I don't consider Aura Reading a magical

Out of curiosity, why not? It's explicitly listed in the core books as one
of the six Active Magic skills.

>skill. Conjuring, Enchanting, and Sorcery are the three magical skills. You

Plus Centering and Divining.

>need to be a full magician, /capable/ of all three, in order to project.


Chris
Message no. 37
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:04:31 -0500
At 09:45 PM 3/31/2004, Chris Maxfield wrote:
>Records show that at 12:27 PM on Thursday 1/04/2004 AEDT, Timothy J. Lanza
>advised:
> >This is a judgement call, but I don't consider Aura Reading a magical
>
>Out of curiosity, why not? It's explicitly listed in the core books as one
>of the six Active Magic skills.

Because it's primary use is as a Complimentary Skill. In fact, I can't
recall any place where it's used as anything but.

> >skill. Conjuring, Enchanting, and Sorcery are the three magical skills. You
>
>Plus Centering and Divining.

Neither of those is a regular magical skill. They're both special purpose
skills used in conjunction with metamagic.

> >need to be a full magician, /capable/ of all three, in order to project.

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 38
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 11:11:24 +0200
According to Timothy J. Lanza, on Thursday 01 April 2004 05:04 the word on
the street was...

> > >This is a judgement call, but I don't consider Aura Reading a magical
>
> Because it's primary use is as a Complimentary Skill. In fact, I can't
> recall any place where it's used as anything but.

Cyberzombies get to roll just Aura Reading in order to actively try and see
astral space, without it being complimentary to Perception (p. 57, M&M).

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Those who ignore history are doomed to keep liking crappy dance
covers of great songs.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 39
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:01:21 +0200
From: "Chris Maxfield" <chris@*******.com>
> Records show that at 12:27 PM on Thursday 1/04/2004 AEDT, Timothy J. Lanza
> advised:
> >This is a judgement call, but I don't consider Aura Reading a magical
>
> Out of curiosity, why not? It's explicitly listed in the core books as one
> of the six Active Magic skills.

I don't know why Timothy don't consider it a magical skill, but even though
I consider it a magical skill (it is based in the Magical Skill section on
page 86-87 of SR3) I still wouldn't include it in the list of skills you
need to be able to learn to astrally project, since anybody can learn this
skill (no required magic attribute).

> >skill. Conjuring, Enchanting, and Sorcery are the three magical skills.
You
>
> Plus Centering and Divining.

Exactly, because the require you to have a magic rating of at least 1.

Lars
Message no. 40
From: bluedragon7@***.ch (bluedragon7)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 14:29:46 +0200
>On Behalf Of Timothy J. Lanza

> At 08:58 PM 3/31/2004, bluedragon7 wrote:
> >Timothy J. Lanza:
> > > Incorrect.
> > >
> > > Critters, page 5...
> > >
> > > "Dual beings with magical skills are capable of astral
> > > projection. They can
> > > separate their astral bodies from their physical bodies, just as full
> > > magicians do..."
> >
> >"full" implies, that an summoner who is also a dual being can project.
>
> It implies exactly the opposite, actually. Summoners can only use one
> magical skill, Conjuring.


dual beings with all magical skills? then you are right but it says nothing
about all skills, does it?

> >actually dual and able to use magical skills (and have a magic attribute,
> >just to prevent CZs from projecting as they can learn aura reading, a
> >magical skill)
>
> This is a judgement call, but I don't consider Aura Reading a magical
> skill. Conjuring, Enchanting, and Sorcery are the three magical
> skills. You

Phys ads can use enchanting and sorcery !

> need to be a full magician, /capable/ of all three, in order to project.

my full mage becomes a ghoul and loses his capability to project becaus he
didnt learn to enchant?

>
> The fact that a person is dual natured is irrelevant. The paragraph is
> meant to illustrate that dual-natured magicians don't /loose/ astral
> projection. It doesn't /grant/ the ability.

it grants the ability to any being, that has a magic attribute, as they can
use magical skills

> > > nor are they /bound/ to their bodies if they would otherwise have the
> > > ability to project.
> >
> >no, not accurate enough because a summoner cant project, a dual natured
> >summoner can.
>
> This is where we disagree.

seems to, you interpret it as all skills i think its any
>
> > > SURGE, on the other hand, opens a whole other can of worms.
> By it's very
> > > nature, you have to adjudicate it as a GM on a case-by-case basis.
> >
> >i am quite tired cat-like cat-shamans ;-)
>
> Dual-Charge Catnip/Defensive Grenades.

fur coated and with 10 seconds delay on the second charge?

>
> > > Also... note that being innately dual-natured is different
> from having the
> > > capability to see astrally.
> >
> >surge can make an adept dual natured,..just as becoming a ghoul can.
>
> Yes, but that /still/ doesn't make them capable of projecting.

dual physad with enchanting (weaponfocus), aurareading and sorcery (astral
combat)


>
> The one case where I /might/ allow it is a Physical Magician,
> because they
> can make use of all three skill I mentioned above (at least, I think they
> can Conjure... I'm not positive) Even then, I probably wouldn't too much
> abuse potential.

that is not the question, yes duality grants non full mages a powerfull
ability, but it also has enormous consequences.

by the text of the book he can, and if a player wishes his sorcerer,
conjurer, phys-ad/mage, shamanist or elementalist to be dual he can project
if he is willig to take the consequences (at least sensitive areas are quite
often warded)

cya bluedragon7
Message no. 41
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:19:40 +0100
At 07:42 PM 3/31/2004, Timothy wrote:
>>Yup, Dragons and other magic-active sentient critters can astral project.
>
>Dual Nature beings cannot project unless they have Sorcery. Except for
>spirits, the ability to project is not a facet of the being, it's a facet
>of the being's training.

No. Astral projection is not dependent on a character's skillset.
Astral projection is something which a full magician can do but an aspected
magician can't.

Some Dual Natured beings are capable of astral projection... most aren't.


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 42
From: bluedragon7@***.ch (bluedragon7)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 19:37:46 +0200
On Behalf Of Lone Eagle

> At 07:42 PM 3/31/2004, Timothy wrote:
> >>Yup, Dragons and other magic-active sentient critters can
> astral project.
> >
> >Dual Nature beings cannot project unless they have Sorcery. Except for
> >spirits, the ability to project is not a facet of the being,
> it's a facet
> >of the being's training.
>
> No. Astral projection is not dependent on a character's skillset.
> Astral projection is something which a full magician can do but
> an aspected
> magician can't.

unless he is a dual being
>
> Some Dual Natured beings are capable of astral projection... most aren't.

exactly those, that are capable of using magic in any way

cya bluedragon7
Message no. 43
From: james@****.uow.edu.au (James Niall Zealey)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 09:04:46 +1000
> "Timothy J. Lanza" <tjlanza@************.com>
>> > Critters, page 5...
>> >
>> > "Dual beings with magical skills are capable of astral
>> > projection. They can
>> > separate their astral bodies from their physical bodies, just as full
>> > magicians do..."
>>
>> "full" implies, that an summoner who is also a dual being can project.
>
>
> It implies exactly the opposite, actually. Summoners can only use one
> magical skill, Conjuring.
>

This is just a blatant misreading.

A dual being with magical skills projects LIKE a full magician.

That's what the sentence says. It doesn't say a dual being who is a full
magician can project - which is what you are saying it says.

Additionally - can't adepts use enchanting? Which is most certainly a
magical skill? So any dual natured being who is an adept can project?
Message no. 44
From: silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 21:45:47 -0500
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com [mailto:shadowrn-
> bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of David Kettler
> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 4:43 PM
> To: Shadowrun Discussion
> Subject: Re: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
>
> OK, so after having 10 people jumping down my throat telling me that
> grounding is gone I think I got the picture...
>
> This was a big "duh" moment for me...I realize that SR3 never said
> anything about grounding, but then it never said anything about *not*
> grounding either. Old habits die hard, I guess, and it just never occured
> to me that they would get rid of something like that. It's part of
> Shadowrun lore! What about all the fiction out there that talks about
> grounding? Besides, it adds so much flavor to games.
>
> Oh well, I'm going to keep using grounding. It's too fun to stop ;)

Depending on how you're using grounding, it can be a serious pain in the
behind. Particularly in the case of grounding through a mage projecting to
affect his body left behind. There are some other corner cases where
grounding breaks the "logic" of the magic system. I think it makes astrally
projecting mages much too powerful, myself. Without grounding, a mage has to
be onsite to do much of anything to a non-astrally-active intruder (barring
having brought on-call elementals with him, a sometimes expensive prospect.
Message no. 45
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 00:29:21 -0500
At 07:29 AM 4/1/2004, bluedragon7 wrote:
> >On Behalf Of Timothy J. Lanza
>
> > At 08:58 PM 3/31/2004, bluedragon7 wrote:
> > >Timothy J. Lanza:
> > > > Incorrect.
> > > >
> > > > Critters, page 5...
> > > >
> > > > "Dual beings with magical skills are capable of astral
> > > > projection. They can
> > > > separate their astral bodies from their physical bodies, just as full
> > > > magicians do..."
> > >
> > >"full" implies, that an summoner who is also a dual being can
project.
> >
> > It implies exactly the opposite, actually. Summoners can only use one
> > magical skill, Conjuring.
>
>dual beings with all magical skills? then you are right but it says nothing
>about all skills, does it?

The implication is full magicians. As I keep saying, it's not meant to
grant an /additional/ ability to dual-natured characters. It's meant to
allow them to /continue/ doing something a full magician can do.

> > >actually dual and able to use magical skills (and have a magic attribute,
> > >just to prevent CZs from projecting as they can learn aura reading, a
> > >magical skill)
> >
> > This is a judgement call, but I don't consider Aura Reading a magical
> > skill. Conjuring, Enchanting, and Sorcery are the three magical
> > skills. You
>
>Phys ads can use enchanting and sorcery !

They can use Enchanting for a restricted selection of items, and can use
Sorcery as an astral combat skill only. Doesn't sound terribly full to me.

> > need to be a full magician, /capable/ of all three, in order to project.
>
>my full mage becomes a ghoul and loses his capability to project becaus he
>didnt learn to enchant?

Note the emphasis on capable. If he's spent Priority A on Magic (or however
many points it is in Point-Buy) you are /capable/ of it. Just because you
don't know how doesn't mean you aren't /capable/ of it.

> > The fact that a person is dual natured is irrelevant. The paragraph is
> > meant to illustrate that dual-natured magicians don't /loose/ astral
> > projection. It doesn't /grant/ the ability.
>
>it grants the ability to any being, that has a magic attribute, as they can
>use magical skills

Not all magicians can make /full/ use of the skills.

> > > > nor are they /bound/ to their bodies if they would otherwise have the
> > > > ability to project.
> > >
> > >no, not accurate enough because a summoner cant project, a dual natured
> > >summoner can.
> >
> > This is where we disagree.
>
>seems to, you interpret it as all skills i think its any

Well, "skills" defiantly means more than just one. If they meant "any
single" they would have said "any single".

> > > > SURGE, on the other hand, opens a whole other can of worms.
> > By it's very
> > > > nature, you have to adjudicate it as a GM on a case-by-case basis.
> > >
> > >i am quite tired cat-like cat-shamans ;-)
> >
> > Dual-Charge Catnip/Defensive Grenades.
>
>fur coated and with 10 seconds delay on the second charge?

Bingo!

> > > > Also... note that being innately dual-natured is different
> > from having the
> > > > capability to see astrally.
> > >
> > >surge can make an adept dual natured,..just as becoming a ghoul can.
> >
> > Yes, but that /still/ doesn't make them capable of projecting.
>
>dual physad with enchanting (weaponfocus), aurareading and sorcery (astral
>combat)

Again, they don't have full use of the skills, so they don't count.

> > The one case where I /might/ allow it is a Physical Magician,
> > because they
> > can make use of all three skill I mentioned above (at least, I think they
> > can Conjure... I'm not positive) Even then, I probably wouldn't too much
> > abuse potential.
>
>that is not the question, yes duality grants non full mages a powerfull
>ability, but it also has enormous consequences.

No more than a normal mage who spent points/selected priority for the ability.

>by the text of the book he can, and if a player wishes his sorcerer,
>conjurer, phys-ad/mage, shamanist or elementalist to be dual he can project
>if he is willig to take the consequences (at least sensitive areas are quite
>often warded)

By your logic, anybody who can perceive can project. While you are
perceiving, you are considered a dual being. By your logic, you can now
project, so long as you have even a single magical skill.

Doesn't sound terribly balanced to me.

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 46
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 00:36:44 -0500
At 04:11 AM 4/1/2004, Gurth wrote:
>According to Timothy J. Lanza, on Thursday 01 April 2004 05:04 the word on
>the street was...
>
> > > >This is a judgement call, but I don't consider Aura Reading a magical
> >
> > Because it's primary use is as a Complimentary Skill. In fact, I can't
> > recall any place where it's used as anything but.
>
>Cyberzombies get to roll just Aura Reading in order to actively try and see
>astral space, without it being complimentary to Perception (p. 57, M&M).

Good one... Totally forgot about cyberzombies. Of course, this just adds
another point to my arguement for it not counting on the Dual-Nature
Projecting debate... By bluedragon7's logic, Cyberzombies can now project, too.

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 47
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 00:39:03 -0500
At 12:19 PM 4/1/2004, Lone Eagle wrote:
>At 07:42 PM 3/31/2004, Timothy wrote:
>>>Yup, Dragons and other magic-active sentient critters can astral project.
>>
>>Dual Nature beings cannot project unless they have Sorcery. Except for
>>spirits, the ability to project is not a facet of the being, it's a facet
>>of the being's training.
>
>No. Astral projection is not dependent on a character's skillset.
>Astral projection is something which a full magician can do but an
>aspected magician can't.

Check Critters, page 5. That's the somewhat ambiguous reference that
sparked the whole line of thought. Primarily, it applies to critters.
Bluedragon7 is trying to apply it to /all/ Dual Natured beings.

>Some Dual Natured beings are capable of astral projection... most aren't.

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 48
From: bluedragon7@***.ch (bluedragon7)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 07:50:42 +0200
Timothy J. Lanza:
> The implication is full magicians. As I keep saying, it's not meant to
> grant an /additional/ ability to dual-natured characters. It's meant to
> allow them to /continue/ doing something a full magician can do.

as me an others pointed out, this is not the case. a dual critter that can
only sumon can project.

> Note the emphasis on capable. If he's spent Priority A on Magic
> (or however
> many points it is in Point-Buy) you are /capable/ of it. Just because you
> don't know how doesn't mean you aren't /capable/ of it.

Phys Mage is Priority A

> >it grants the ability to any being, that has a magic attribute,
> as they can
> >use magical skills
>
> Not all magicians can make /full/ use of the skills.

full use is not necessary

> Well, "skills" defiantly means more than just one. If they meant "any
> single" they would have said "any single".

there is more than one skill, but it applies to beings with any, as not any
magician has all skills

it does not say: capable of any skill

> >that is not the question, yes duality grants non full mages a powerfull
> >ability, but it also has enormous consequences.
>
> No more than a normal mage who spent points/selected priority for
> the ability.

duality has far more consequences, as you cant turn it of, are always
astrally vulnerable.

>
> >by the text of the book he can, and if a player wishes his sorcerer,
> >conjurer, phys-ad/mage, shamanist or elementalist to be dual he
> can project
> >if he is willig to take the consequences (at least sensitive
> areas are quite
> >often warded)
>
> By your logic, anybody who can perceive can project. While you are
> perceiving, you are considered a dual being.

no, because being a dual creature is different from being dual for a moment.

> By your logic, you can now
> project, so long as you have even a single magical skill.

and are a dual being and have a magic attribute

surged dual beings, that were mundane before surge are still mundane
afterwards and cant project.

> Doesn't sound terribly balanced to me.

it might not be that balanced but it is kind of official, as many unbalanced
things

cya bluedragon7
Message no. 49
From: bluedragon7@***.ch (bluedragon7)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 07:50:47 +0200
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com]On Behalf Of Timothy J.
> Lanza
> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 7:37 AM
> To: Shadowrun Discussion
> Subject: Re: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
>
>
> At 04:11 AM 4/1/2004, Gurth wrote:
> >According to Timothy J. Lanza, on Thursday 01 April 2004 05:04
> the word on
> >the street was...
> >
> > > > >This is a judgement call, but I don't consider Aura
> Reading a magical
> > >
> > > Because it's primary use is as a Complimentary Skill. In fact, I can't
> > > recall any place where it's used as anything but.
> >
> >Cyberzombies get to roll just Aura Reading in order to actively
> try and see
> >astral space, without it being complimentary to Perception (p. 57, M&M).
>
> Good one... Totally forgot about cyberzombies. Of course, this just adds
> another point to my arguement for it not counting on the Dual-Nature
> Projecting debate... By bluedragon7's logic, Cyberzombies can now
> project, too.

no they arent, their magical skill is granted by duality,..i explicitly
excluded them

cya bluedragon7
Message no. 50
From: bluedragon7@***.ch (bluedragon7)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 07:57:28 +0200
> Timothy J. Lanza

> >No. Astral projection is not dependent on a character's skillset.
> >Astral projection is something which a full magician can do but an
> >aspected magician can't.
>
> Check Critters, page 5. That's the somewhat ambiguous reference that
> sparked the whole line of thought. Primarily, it applies to critters.
> Bluedragon7 is trying to apply it to /all/ Dual Natured beings.

as there is no other ruling regarding this fact

in case of shifter rules there is a other ruling, that differs NPCs and PCs
but in this case,..
>
> >Some Dual Natured beings are capable of astral projection... most aren't.

mundane ones arent

cya bluedragon7
Message no. 51
From: silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 01:03:53 -0500
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com [mailto:shadowrn-
> bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Timothy J. Lanza
> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 12:37 AM
> To: Shadowrun Discussion
> Subject: Re: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
>
> At 04:11 AM 4/1/2004, Gurth wrote:
> >According to Timothy J. Lanza, on Thursday 01 April 2004 05:04 the word
> on
> >the street was...
> >
> > > > >This is a judgement call, but I don't consider Aura Reading a
> magical
> > >
> > > Because it's primary use is as a Complimentary Skill. In fact, I can't
> > > recall any place where it's used as anything but.
> >
> >Cyberzombies get to roll just Aura Reading in order to actively try and
> see
> >astral space, without it being complimentary to Perception (p. 57, M&M).
>
> Good one... Totally forgot about cyberzombies. Of course, this just adds
> another point to my arguement for it not counting on the Dual-Nature
> Projecting debate... By bluedragon7's logic, Cyberzombies can now project,
> too.

Yeah, but with a negative essence, they die before they leave the body...
I'll let them project <EGMG>
Message no. 52
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 01:12:59 -0500
At 12:50 AM 4/2/2004, bluedragon7 wrote:
>Timothy J. Lanza:
> > The implication is full magicians. As I keep saying, it's not meant to
> > grant an /additional/ ability to dual-natured characters. It's meant to
> > allow them to /continue/ doing something a full magician can do.
>
>as me an others pointed out, this is not the case. a dual critter that can
>only sumon can project.

You haven't pointed out anything but the way you THINK it works. I simply
THINK it works differently. There is no absolute on this situation because
the wording is very vague.

> > Note the emphasis on capable. If he's spent Priority A on Magic
> > (or however
> > many points it is in Point-Buy) you are /capable/ of it. Just because you
> > don't know how doesn't mean you aren't /capable/ of it.
>
>Phys Mage is Priority A

Yes, which is precisely why I said I MIGHT allow it for them. They're
fairly wonky on most counts - check out how Initiation works for them -
it's /really/ screwy.

> > >it grants the ability to any being, that has a magic attribute,
> > as they can
> > >use magical skills
> >
> > Not all magicians can make /full/ use of the skills.
>
>full use is not necessary

That is your INTERPRETATION.

> > Well, "skills" defiantly means more than just one. If they meant
"any
> > single" they would have said "any single".
>
>there is more than one skill, but it applies to beings with any, as not any
>magician has all skills
>
>it does not say: capable of any skill

Exactly... It say SKILLS... plural. You just restated my objection to your
argument.

> > >that is not the question, yes duality grants non full mages a powerfull
> > >ability, but it also has enormous consequences.
> >
> > No more than a normal mage who spent points/selected priority for
> > the ability.
>
>duality has far more consequences, as you cant turn it of, are always
>astrally vulnerable.
>
> > >by the text of the book he can, and if a player wishes his sorcerer,
> > >conjurer, phys-ad/mage, shamanist or elementalist to be dual he
> > can project
> > >if he is willig to take the consequences (at least sensitive
> > areas are quite
> > >often warded)
> >
> > By your logic, anybody who can perceive can project. While you are
> > perceiving, you are considered a dual being.
>
>no, because being a dual creature is different from being dual for a moment.

Aside from the ability to shut it off, how?

> > By your logic, you can now
> > project, so long as you have even a single magical skill.
>
>and are a dual being and have a magic attribute
>
>surged dual beings, that were mundane before surge are still mundane
>afterwards and cant project.

Yes, and non-mundanes who can't project but are dual natured STILL can't
project.

In regards to SURGE'd characters... It says "...they can /still/ astrally
project...". The emphasis is mine, but the intent is clear - you don't GAIN
the ability to project, you just RETAIN it if you already HAVE it.

This is what I have been arguing all alone. I just looked it up, and the
statement as worded supports my arguement, not yours.

> > Doesn't sound terribly balanced to me.
>
>it might not be that balanced but it is kind of official, as many unbalanced
>things

It's not even remotely official. It's your interpretation of a nebulous
circumstance.

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 53
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 01:17:45 -0500
At 12:50 AM 4/2/2004, bluedragon7 wrote:
> > Good one... Totally forgot about cyberzombies. Of course, this just adds
> > another point to my arguement for it not counting on the Dual-Nature
> > Projecting debate... By bluedragon7's logic, Cyberzombies can now
> > project, too.
>
>no they arent, their magical skill is granted by duality,..

It is granted by an especially ODD form of Dual Natured existence.

>i explicitly excluded them

No... You didn't. The first reference to cyberzombies in this thread is
by Gurth. The second is in my reply, you are later.

At this point, I am calling foul and concluding the discussion with you.
You lose, thank you for playing.

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 54
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 23:18:28 -0800
Timothy J. Lanza wrote: on Thursday, April 01, 2004 10:18 PM:
>
> At 12:50 AM 4/2/2004, bluedragon7 wrote:
> > > Good one... Totally forgot about cyberzombies. Of course,
> this just
> > > adds another point to my arguement for it not counting on the
> > > Dual-Nature Projecting debate... By bluedragon7's logic,
> > > Cyberzombies can now project, too.
> >
> >no they arent, their magical skill is granted by duality,..
>
> It is granted by an especially ODD form of Dual Natured existence.
>
> >i explicitly excluded them
>
> No... You didn't. The first reference to cyberzombies in this
> thread is by Gurth. The second is in my reply, you are later.
>
> At this point, I am calling foul and concluding the
> discussion with you.
> You lose, thank you for playing.
>

Well, that is one way to end a conversation. :)

That being said, why don't we do this:

Agree to disagree and move on. Your view won't impact his world, and vice
versa.

Call it house rules, until someone bothers to state the Official Wiz Kids
RulingT on the matter.

[:

Zebulin

PS: If you're an adept in my game, you don't get to project. I don't care
what kind of adept you are.
Message no. 55
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 11:49:18 +0200
Withou going into the discussion I would just like to state that I think
bluedragon7 is out on a limb.

Lars
Message no. 56
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 18:40:22 +0100
At 06:37 PM 4/1/2004, bluedragon7 wrote:
> > No. Astral projection is not dependent on a character's skillset.
> > Astral projection is something which a full magician can do but
> > an aspected
> > magician can't.
>
>unless he is a dual being

A Sorcery adept who becomes dual with the Comet can't project.
Full magicians retain their ability to do so but an adept infected with
HMHVV can't...


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 57
From: bluedragon7@***.ch (bluedragon7)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 21:02:18 +0200
> >no they arent, their magical skill is granted by duality,..
>
> It is granted by an especially ODD form of Dual Natured existence.

or that way

> >i explicitly excluded them
>
> No... You didn't. The first reference to cyberzombies in this thread is
> by Gurth. The second is in my reply, you are later.

i quote myself
> bluedragon7:
> Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 3:59 AM

> actually dual and able to use magical skills (and have a magic attribute,
> just to prevent CZs from projecting as they can learn aura reading, a
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> magical skill)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

cya bluedragon7
Message no. 58
From: bluedragon7@***.ch (bluedragon7)
Subject: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 21:12:36 +0200
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com]On Behalf Of Lars Wagner
> Hansen
> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 11:49 AM
> To: Shadowrun Discussion
> Subject: Re: Ye Olde Magick Questionne(s)
>
>
> Withou going into the discussion I would just like to state that I think
> bluedragon7 is out on a limb.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

query?

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