| From: | Unknown sender |
|---|---|
| Subject: | None |
| Date: | Unknown time and date |
in the 2nd ed Grimoire...it's the picture of the spell book in the lower
left corner....
I just picked up the 2nd Grimoire the other day...<< around here the only
hobby shop get's all it's fasa stuff about 3 months after everyone
else...but of course it can stay stocked up on D+D... >>.. and saw the
little caption in the spell book....got a good laugh out of it.
Paul
AKA << Shadowrun >> Tap, << Vampire >> Steven 'Desc Of Borg'
Bolton,
<< Battletech >> Khan Kindred of Clan Desert Eagle
AKA
The Arrogant Minion of Cthulhu, The Great Corrupter
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 00:54:14 EDT
Reply-To: Robert Link <link@*****.PHYSICS.FSU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Robert Link <link@*****.PHYSICS.FSU.EDU>
>
> Monobullets: Weird. Won't the monofilament damage the gun on the way
> out? Or are the two rounds encased in the same bullet prior to being
> fired? They sound pretty wacky.
>
They don't sound any more "wacky" than than the chain shot fired out of
cannons once upon a time (which, I suspect, provided the inspiration for these
rounds). As an added bonus, the dynamics of that sort of system would tend
to introduce a spin about the centre of mass (i.e. somewhere about half way
along the monofilament). This is what caused chain shot to really rip the
daylights out of sails and rigging.
On the downside, the rules posted for mono-shot look pretty complicated.
Between the extra target number calculations (variable based on range), extra
die rolls, and so forth, I can see a lot of players deciding it's just too
much of a pain. . .
-rpl
"No one holds command over me. No man. No god. No Prince.
What is a claim of age for ones who are immortal? What is a
claim of power for ones who defy death? Call your damnable
hunt. We shall see whom I drag screaming to hell with me."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1993 22:26:41 -0700
Reply-To: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Jeremy Roberson <ROBERSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Rule Mods
At this point we've seen over 200K of rule mods (I oughtta know: I download
all of it to persue at my leisure and let others decide if they'll use it) and
I must agree with the tail of someone's response to my comments on Huth's
rounds: Keep It Simple, Stupid. Certainly, the modifications introduced byt
Huth and others may be as accurate as possible in the way they reflect the
dynamics of whatever they are modifying, but there comes a point when the mods
are running up and down so much that a Math SPU is required to adequately
enforce those rules. If you have six PCs vs 20 NPCs with, say, 3 types of armor
and 4 types of ammo involved, the number-running slows to a crawl.
In short, rule mods are all well and good but there comes a point then
(oops, when) practicality overrides game balance and common sense and you end
up using the original rules anyway.
J Roberson
Signing Out this 12th day of April 1993
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 09:26:00 EDT
Reply-To: CSD108@*****.PSU.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Craig S. Dohmen" <CSD108@*****.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Length of combat turn
J Roberson said:
"Since a Shadowrun round is 3 seconds, these two games seem to agree."
Well, at least they used to be three sec. Lately I'm not sure. Look toward the
back of NAGRL where it talks about the rate gas spreads in a room (and, no I
don't have the page number). It says something about how you divide by *5 sec*
or some such thing to get how much it spreads per turn. And check out the table
in the Grimoire II about delay times for anchored spells and drain mods. It
kind of implies a 5 sec turn there, too. There are two possibilities I've come
up with to explain this:
1) FASA just fudged some of the stuff to 5 sec. because it's easier to do the
math, or:
2) They're trying to quietly slide in a 5 sec. combat turn.
Anyway.
What do you think, sirs?
--Presto
_______________________________________________________________________
| Trouble with Tribbles? Try | Internet: CSD108@*****.psu.edu |
| - N E R P S ! - | Bitnet : CSD108@***** |
| For Tribbles | "668: Neighbor of the Beast" |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 10:15:00 EDT
Reply-To: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Subject: 3 second combat turns
i prefer the 3 second combat turn. it's nice, short, and allows 20 turns
per minute rather than a noisome 12.
any other comments on bio arms, running for phys ads, and/or cyberforce?
i've gotten some email, but since i need to feel loved i'd like more. <g>
anybody interested in seeing the CyberData characters?
("I do _not_ have to much time on my hands!")
DMSO/Nerps
Patric
progers@******.bitnet
"Space for rent: 566, upstairs neighbor serious party Beast"
Sanctuary BBS, 517/6292002, 24 hrs, 9600/N81, Gaming and Computer Networks
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 09:56:43 -0500
Reply-To: "Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Slavery.
I personally agree with the Highlander in the thought that it sounds exactly
like something for GM's discretion.
The way we run the idea (and NO!! we don't have any "burners") is that the
mage or shaman trying to conjure is somewhat like a fisher trolling a line into
the plane of your choice, with big letters on a billboard at the end saying
something like "Vacation on the Prime Material Plane, only >insert here<
services. Leave your cares behind on a fabulous journey to the other side of
the cosmos. The worst thing that can happen to you is that your trip'll get
cut short."
Pure roleplaying, and since none decide to burn elementals for any reason
(anctually, they're much like pets) we don't normally have to deal with getting
an irate spirit.
-Ethan Court
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 11:13:00 EDT
Reply-To: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Subject: some more info on Silvestri's Cyberforce
First off i recommend the cyberforce comic, just because it's good.
now to answer some questions that Tyger posed about what they look like
(sorry Tyger, you get this twice).
IMPACT
"What's that?"
"Looks like a truck with legs."
-Cyberforce #1, couple 'o thugs before Impact demolished their van with a
move-through
Impact is about 10' tall, probably 1200 to 1400 lbs wrapped around his massive
frame (that would be 350 to 450 lbs if he were 6'10" - seriously thick in all
physical dimensions). He has grey skin, curly grey hair and red pupil-less
eyes. His armor is grey and green with gold trim at the shoulders, gloves and
boots. The gloves have the stylized finger reinforcements, in gold trim. (not
gold the metal, but yellow-gold the color). (issue #1 shows impact running
thru a van. he's about as big as the van. another panel shows impact standing
in the forground of a guy reaching for his gun. impact's leg and this thug
are the same size.) (i didn't bring issue #2 with me this morning, but impact
is usually about the same size).
now that i look back, i think his size got reduced a little bit to accomodate
the "reality" of the game. shadowrun ain't a comic book ("but it could
be!"
*gleam*). if you wanted impact to be "true" to his comic book form, then
you should probably give him the ability to "grow" from 10' to 20', adding
5 body and 10 strength (but anyone shooting at him does so at -1 TN cuz he's
a big target).
some other notes
velocity has white skin with a black "lightning bolt" on the right half of her
face - cheek to hairline, crossing her eye.
ripclaw has white skin, with black strips on his face to highlight his cheeks
and eyes (for that more sinister look)
the rest of them are boring old caucasions. stryker has blond hair, the right
half of his face is clearly cyber, his left eye appears organic and is blue.
heatwave has brown hair and wears a half-face mask which makes his eyes
appear pupil-less red (seems to be a trademark for these ppl or something).
cyblade also wears a half-face mask, making her eyes appear (you guessed it)
pupil-less red. she has black hair.
hope that helps, but again, i recommend the mag - if only because it offers
cool villains ;)
final note: after rereading the mag, (and rereading stryker as i wrote
him) i recommend ripping out the tactical computer. in the comic he's not
*that* good.
patric
progers@******.bitnet
Sanctuary BBS, 517/6292002, 24 hrs, 9600/N81, Gaming and Computer Networks
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 11:11:24 -0400
Reply-To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@******.coe.northeastern.edu>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@******.COE.NORTHEASTERN.EDU>
Organization: 3WA, Boston Office. Or Nu Meta Chi. Take your pick.
Subject: Re: Slavery
In-Reply-To: Ed Matuskey's message of Mon, 12 Apr 1993 14:26:03 -0700
>>>>> "Ed" == Ed Matuskey <MATUSKEY@***.EDU> writes:
Ed> All mages/shamans who summon spirits/elementals are slavers.
Wrong. Shamans *ASK* a spirit for favors/services, not force them.
--Rat PGP Public Key Block available upon request
||||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||||
Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat ratinox@******.coe.northeastern.edu
The only way to deal with temptation is to yield to it. --Oscar Wilde
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 10:53:23 -0500
Reply-To: "Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Troll bows, the Official Critique (tm).
Waisley, while I have nothing against you personally, and generally mean no
offense, you seem to really be DT in some cases. While this isn't a flame
(hopefully, I won't have to say the M- word once), I have some serious
questions as to the nature of your information. Now, while I like the method
of your write-up, I question its necessity.
Normal bows DO take into account the longer draw of the troll (and Sasquatch,
too. Flare wouldn't be happy to be forgotten.). Firstly, your information
regarding the troll size, "many trolls are twice the height of a normal human,"
is faulty. The ratio is more like half again. Secondly, let me draw your
attention to the ad in SSCat, before it even identifies it as the Ranger X.
What does it say on the top of the page, boys and girls?
That's right: Compound bow system.
Well, Waisley, you don't seem too knowledgeable about the compound bow you just
made. You have a damage code of STR+6, which I can say only one thing to:
excessive. I don't see any reason to change the existing Ranger X system,
just for trolls, or for anyone else either. The compound bows of today are
made from the finest composites available, for the best strength and
flexibility. I can expect that this would be true no less of the compound
bows of 2054. The wonderful thing about a compound bow is the fact that you
can adjust the draw strength and draw length of the sucker to accomodate, so
long as you have the overall size of the bow to match, roughly, your size.
I maintain that the bows of 2054 will come in a variety of overall lengths, to
match the variety of people. They already exist today, why not then, or are
we regressing?
What this means is that I get myself a 100-pound draw bow with an overall size
of about 1.25 meters (a little less than half the troll average height). Then,
I adjust my draw length, via the pulley system, to approx 1 meter. Then,
because I'm such a brawny and masculine sort of guy, I crank that sucker up to
#220 draw (or whatever is appropriate for a strength of 16 or so). Now I'm
doing some truly grotesque damage (please roll. . . nevermind, you won't be
rolling it down anyway. . .) in a system that works perfectly. If it ain't
broke, don't fix it.
Now, another item here is your concept of arrows. Yes, the average arrow for a
troll will be on the order of a meter (doubles as a security door-stopper)
long, but that damage an arrow does has nothing to do with the weight of the
arrow, as that is almost negligable. The tip of the arrow will be the thing
that does all that damage, and it won't be of such a heavier weight than a
standard arrow (i.e. one of human stock size average). I imagine that the
arrowhead will be made out of the lightest, strongest metals (or hey!! even
plastics maybe) possible, just as todays are. A front-heavy arrow realls
decreases accuracy, and may require indirect fire at ranges normally accessable
to a lighter arrow as direct.
Shadowrun does not qualify as the most realistic games, especially the combat
system, but if you want to have different damage codes for diamond arrows as
opposed to spike-tipped armor piercers, then that's your problem to remember
all the differences. Personally, I don't want to derive some formula by which
we may discern the damage code of a weapon by the breadth of it's arrowhead
blades and the number of them; their weight, the length of the shaft, etc.
Another thing I object to, categorically, is your ranges for the "Ranger-XT."
I think that they are superfluous and silly. I do not know whether you use SRI
or SRII, so please forgive me if I unknowingly cast aspersions on your reading
ability. In SRII, the ranges for bows, most specifically _including_ the
Ranger-X Compound Bow System, are strength-modified. The extreme range, I
believe (but do not quote me on this - look it up) is 6*STR*10m.
Basically, I do not think that you are justified in any of the claims presented
in your article, most importantly the increased damage code. And notice, I
didn't say the M-word *once.*
But now, to the article in question itself.
I reserve the right to delete from the reprint any information previously dealt
with in the above, or as unnecessary to the overall issue.
] Compound Troll Sized Bow System
] The X-T bow also come with an enlarged Bow Accessory mount so that
]any multitude of aditions can be added to the bow.
What?!?! Are you telling me that the hook-up for a smartlink for a troll has
to be bigger than that for a human? A scope????? I think that their eyes are
approximately the same size, but I sure don't see any ads for Troll-Sized
Scopes (tm). Then again, maybe you're (and I spelled it right!! :p) right.
After all, the system isn't the most realistic.
] 2 precision bow is str +4 M and a spear (pole arm) is str +3 S
] so I figured it would be either 5+ or 6+ and went
] with 6+ since the precision to the normal bow is +2 more
Huh? I humbly request that you seek experience in using complete English
sentence structure if you wish to be understood. What does "precision to the
normal bow" mean?
] 4 yes in the hands of a troll street samurai it could
] pierce a Banshee - gee and its legal too!!
I am unprepared to beat the armor dispute, but check your legal codes for
Seattle, laddie.
Once again, Waisley, I am sorry if you think that you have received undeserved
attention here. However, I feel rather strongly about the whole thing. I made
the bow my "life" when I played a sasquatch, and so your bow resembles
blasphemy of the highest sort.
-Ethan Court.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 10:55:37 EST
Reply-To: steven mancini <mancinis@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: steven mancini <mancinis@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: archetypes
In-Reply-To: <9304110750.AA10696@******.cc.purdue.edu>; from "*" at Apr
11,
93 9:49 am
To quote Mike:
]
] Anybody out there have original character archetypes, or picked some
] up from Ka'ge or Nagee that I haven't heard about? My standard list is, at
] present, as follows, without distinction made for race (i.e. "Elven Decker"),
] background & skill distinctions (i.e. "Former Wage Mage" vs. "Street
Mage"),
] or combination archetypes (i.e. "Mage Detective"). If you have any, please
] send me stats & details.
]
Just tried to send you one (the Beastmaster) and had it bounce back at me.
I would post it to the group but this would be the 3rd/4th time I have done
so and most of the regulars may not appreciate it. :)
] Astral Adept
] Conjurer
] Druid
] Enchanter
] Gossamyr
] Oracle
] Scout
] Spellcutter
]
] Drop me a line if you're interested in details.
]
Consider me interested...
-Minotaur
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
| Steve Mancini | mancinis@******.cc.purdue.edu |
| Grad Student {Dazed & Confused} | mancinis@**.cc.purdue.edu |
| Political Science Department | phi@****.cc.purdue.edu |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| "My Behaviour is Addictive Functioning in a Disease Process of Toxic |
| Co-dependency! I need holistic healing and Wellness before I'll |
| accept responsibility for my actions!" -Calvin, 1/21/93 |
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 11:16:36 CDT
Reply-To: bellovar@***.WISC.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Christopher Bellovary <bellovar@***.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: anybody want a third (or fourth) arm?
Bioarms.
Those would not be proper bioware. Bioware augments that
which is already there. What you are dealing with is an entirely
unexplored science, using bioware to modify a person beyond what
was originally there.
To do this - one needs to add skeletal structure that is
not original spec for a body, as well as just a slew of extra
neural and circulatory systems. Furthermore, the mind would
have to learn to use these new functions and respond correctly.
To accomplish this feat, many of the internal organs
would have to be relocated to create room for all of this new
skeletal and muscular tissue. In the game I am in - altering
the body so far outside of the norm incur a far greater body
cost than 1.2 due to the internal as well as external effects.
Futhermore - if these are to truly be part of your body,
anything put in them will still affect both your body index and
your essence rating. If not, they are not truly part of your
body and would catagorize under cyberware despite being organic.
-- CrossFire --
PostNotes:
Why is a cultured bioarm a 1.0 body cost and not a .9 ? I fail to
see the rationale behind modifying the current culturing rules.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 11:55:50 CDT
Reply-To: bellovar@***.WISC.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Christopher Bellovary <bellovar@***.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Flechettes
> The ballistic rating of armor is, I assume, based off of the concept of modern
> ballistic armor, meaning that it is a high-strength weave of material that
> spreads the energy of the round around a larger area. Impaling weapons
> (needles,lasers, flechettes) will go right through the weave because they are
> so thin.
>
> The point is (literally!) that thin, high velocity projectiles will poke
> throughthe weave like needles through a knit sweater, while normal bullets
> splat against it and fail to penetrate, like a pencil or dowel being pressed
> against the sweater.
>
> J Roberson
You must be unaware of the current rules regarding flechette
ammunition. Currently, you use Twice the impact rating, and not simply
a factor of one. (The reason being that impact armor is better at slowing
the low mass of the flechette and entrapping it before it hit the skin.)
Anyway - just a quick post to point out the significant difference.
-- CrossFire --
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 12:03:29 CDT
Reply-To: bellovar@***.WISC.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Christopher Bellovary <bellovar@***.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Slavery
In our game - our mage pointed out an important distinction to me.
She always treated her elemetals as equals - not as either summoned slaves,
pets, or summoned help = but as an equal.
To her - the idea of treating them as anything else would degrade
an entity in many cases both more intelligent and superior to mankind.
-- CrossFire --
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 13:10:00 EDT
Reply-To: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Subject: response to crossfire: bio arms
Crossfire,
you bring up some good points that i think i should respond to and at least
offer my justification for what i did.
i drew upon several factors. 1) essence cost of a cyberlimb is 1.0.
most bioware has a lower body index than a comparable piece of cyberware
so i followed thread. 2) i used the ideas that Rob Rubin presented in his
article on "Shadowfurries" as a guideline (tail 0.3 bi, combat tail 0.6 bi).
i don't see moving organs to be as much a problem as adding the sketetal
structure. installing any kind of cyberware or bioware is going to require
the displacement of one or more ogran _systems_ during and after the
installation process. if having part of your brain chopped out to install a
c^2 deck, or having a volume extender constantly moving the entire torso then
having _one_ lung removed or the liver displaced shouldn't be a problem.
reasons for "Tampering with the Existing Bioware Rules" or
"Why Does It Cost 1.0 bi For A Cultured Bio Arm Rather Than 0.9?"
hmm, i wondered if someone would ask this. well, here's my justification
that i ought to have included in that first post (but didn't).
by my figuring the bio arm is 0.8 bi arm/skeletal enhancement and 0.4 bi
neural control material. this means that you are adding material to the torso,
spine and brain of the user, as well as adding additional stress for having a
new limb sticking out. i'll admit that the 0.4 bi for "neural material" may
seem excessive (a reflex recorder is only 0.25 for a "general skill" (STech,
p 27), but this also allows for some "fudge" to avoid such nasty complications
as "Special Skill: Multiple Limbs").
now if you look at ShadowTech page 6, "Implantation and Repair" where it
discusses cultured bioware, you will find that it says "All
neural bioware is cultured bioware." therefore, if you culture the "meat"
as
well as the "control" you will end up with a cost of ((0.8*0.75)+0.4) = 1.0.
hope that helps.
and i promise not to take any comments personally (unless they come thru
email)
patric
progers@******
Dark Lord Aspirant
Sanctuary BBS, 517/6292002, 24 hrs, 9600/N81, Gaming and Computer Networks
(i hope to have some of the 3 meg of files i've downloaded from this list on
the bbs by the end of the week, so give us a call!)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 12:19:09 -0400
Reply-To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@******.coe.northeastern.edu>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@******.COE.NORTHEASTERN.EDU>
Organization: 3WA, Boston Office. Or Nu Meta Chi. Take your pick.
Subject: Re: Slavery
In-Reply-To: Dave Sherohman's message of Mon, 12 Apr 1993 16:33:30 -0500
>>>>> "Dave" == Dave Sherohman <esper@*****.IMA.UMN.EDU>
writes:
Dave> Minor point here - your thoughts hold true for hermetics &
Dave> elementals, but (in the game world) shamans request that spirits
Dave> assist them. Of course, as players we know that the spirits don't
Dave> actually have any choice in the matter.
That's not true. If a shaman blows his roll, he gets didly-squat; ie, none
of the spirits in the area listen to his call.
--Rat PGP Public Key Block available upon request
||||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||||
Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat ratinox@******.coe.northeastern.edu
I'm so hip I can't see past my own pelvis. --Zaphod Beeblebrox
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 13:24:55 EST
Reply-To: S90H000 <S90H@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: S90H000 <S90H@******.BITNET>
Subject: shadowland
I found out something yesterday. Who here has read the new novel by
tome Dowd? Okay, I haven't but a friend of mine has figured out where
the stronghold of shadowland is. Exactly. In the book, a character is
blindfolded, and taken to shadowland. My friend counted all of the
turns inthe book. He and a couple of friends retraced the route in a
car starting on Academy Boulevard in colorado springs. With all of the
turns included, he arrived at one of the largest halls on the grounds of
the Air Force Academy in colorado springs. I'm told that in the book
the scene outside is described as a large building that houses a large
computer installation. The surrounding buildings could have been dorm
rooms, offices, and tennis courts, or words to that effect. The hall,
which I cannot remember off hand, is like that now, with only the
additional lecture halls on the top floors.
Says it would be the perfect place, since the ucas isn't using it
anymore.
scott madaski
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 12:32:53 CDT
Reply-To: bellovar@***.WISC.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Christopher Bellovary <bellovar@***.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: open disc w/ patric: bio arms
] 2) I used the ideas that Rob Rubin presented in his article on "Shadowfurries"
] as a guideline (tail 0.3 bi, combat tail 0.6 bi).
I can understand that. Genetics in Shadowrun is not supposed
to be that far advanced as in "ShadowFurries", but different people play
different levels of tech - and it was such a neat post - I didn't bother
saying anything. I am basing my arguements on the tech level that is standard.
There is one thing though. Adding a tail I would believe would be far
easier than another limb, not even looking atthe effects of having an extra
limb in the way. I used to regularly swordfight - and personally would
hate the idea of trying any of those moves with an extra pair of limbs, but
that is just a pesonal observation.
] i don't see moving organs to be as much a problem as adding the sketetal
] structure. installing any kind of cyberware or bioware is going to require
] the displacement of one or more ogran _systems_ during and after the
] installation process. if having part of your brain chopped out to install a
] c^2 deck, or having a volume extender constantly moving the entire torso then
] having _one_ lung removed or the liver displaced shouldn't be a problem.
In adding a C2 deck - one removes none of the nueral tissue. Instead,
what is done is that part of the skull is shaved away and replaced with the
cranial cyberdeck. (I know - originally I thought what you did as well while
we were playtesting untill it was explained to me how it was supposed to work)
Not to mention, the extended volume merely allows ful tidal flex of the
diaphram. This is quite feasible, and not the major deal you make it. And, I
sure hope no runners out there seriously consider running with only one lung.
The big thind is that organ systems are augmented, but essentially take up very
little extra space than they did unaugmented.
> reasons for "Tampering with the Existing Bioware Rules" or
> "Why Does It Cost 1.0 bi For A Cultured Bio Arm Rather Than 0.9?"
>
> hmm, i wondered if someone would ask this. well, here's my justification
> that i ought to have included in that first post (but didn't).
> by my figuring the bio arm is 0.8 bi arm/skeletal enhancement and 0.4 bi
> neural control material. this means that you are adding material to the
torso,
> spine and brain of the user, as well as adding additional stress for having a
> new limb sticking out. i'll admit that the 0.4 bi for "neural material"
may
> seem excessive (a reflex recorder is only 0.25 for a "general skill"
(STech,
> p 27), but this also allows for some "fudge" to avoid such nasty
complications
> as "Special Skill: Multiple Limbs").
I see - now I understnd - makes sense to me.
> hope that helps.
> and i promise not to take any comments personally (unless they come thru
> email)
>
> patric
> progers@******
As you already seem to know - I just want to point out that none of
this is a flame. Merely presenting my side of the arguement. It is a neat
idea, just that I believe the cost of what would be necessary may outweigh
the advantages (merely because I assume a greater body cost)
Chris Bellovary
-- CrossFire --
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 13:32:55 EDT
Reply-To: Dark Elf <VESPOSIT@****.SUNYSB.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Dark Elf <VESPOSIT@****.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject: Free Spirit Policlub
I like the idea of a people against spirit enslavement movement.
Just think of the hell they could put a PC conjurer through.
I like it, Thwap me if you dare!
DE
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 13:59:24 EDT
Reply-To: Dark Elf <VESPOSIT@****.SUNYSB.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Dark Elf <VESPOSIT@****.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject: Shamans and spirits
I think that the view on this topic had by the extremists who want to
believe that shamans are also slavers (I really can't say if it is true or not,
just that it's what they see it as), is that the Shaman makes the spirit
"an offer it can't refuse" to coin a phrase. They would see shamanic
conjuring as enslavement disguised as free will, since shamans always seem
to get what they want anyway!
DE
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 14:22:33 -0500
Reply-To: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania
Subject: more on bow
I do know some about bows - more than the average joe-shmoe
but not a lot - so some assumptions may be wrong.
ok my concept behind the X-T bow was that it was basically
the Troll Welsh Longbow of Compound Bows
After looking at it some more (I spent a totoal of 15minutes of
thought on it - including the writing) I think str min +5 would be better.
reasons
take a Sam of 8 str and a troll of 8 str.
Bows are normally made generically for certain pound variables
(compound bows that is) yes you can vary the pounds on a bow to
a certain extent but only so much - I do not believe a bow
made for a man who likes a #100 pound draw would be good for
a child who wants a #15 pound draw.
Now with your generic SR comound bow an 8 str is an 8 str
no matter if the person is a 1.2 meter dwarf or a 3m tall troll
(yes you are right about the height thing it should have been
1.5 times - I got my firgures screwed up in a lot of places).
But it seemed that these weapons would be short for
a troll - I used a 55 lb straight bow (really hard to draw)
but because of my draw length I was getting about 63 lb out of it.
(rather small bow). So I added some height to it. Adding on almost
a meter of draw would be hard to do even a compound bow - that is
why I added the height.
My main thought is that a larger arrow - not nessecarily
the head - would do more damge and it has more a distance for
acceleration (a compound bow for those who don't know has an
basically constant acceleration compared to a straight bow).
Even though it weighs more I figured that it would travel
a farther distance at the longest range ( all that robin hood
stuff). I have changed the ranges from str +2 to str
] 2 precision bow is str +4 M and a spear (pole arm) is str +3 S
] so I figured it would be either 5+ or 6+ and went
] with 6+ since the precision to the normal bow is +2 more
I tend to ramble. the ranger bow is +2 damage more than the normal
bow is what it ment.
As to the bow accessories mount - it was a miss print (no read through)
should have been - Enlarged hand grip and a bow accessories mount
legality - its not toatlly illegal - is what it means in the top
part - you just need a permit which is easy to get.
Here it is rewriten with corrections - some
Compound Troll Sized Bow System
* Designed for you, the ultimate troll hunter
* uses the latest in strength-amplification technology to
increase its power-to-velocity ratio over the top!
* Sized for use by trolls!!!
The new Ranger X-T Compound Bow was designed just like the X version
but with trolls in mind. Normal bows do not take into account the extra arm
length of troll's arms nor do they account for the fact that many trolls are
much larger in size than a normal human. Many trolls have complained that the
handle grip was to small and that they could only draw the bow back to
the elbow. The X-T also has precision XL arrows so that a troll may take
advantage of his or her full arm length.
Because of the extra arrow length and greater power behind the shot
the X-T has already defeated ALL previous long distance records for
arrow shots with easy.
The X-T bow also come with an enlarged hand grip and a Bow Accessory
mount so that any multitude of aditions can be added to the bow.
Type Conc Str min Useable Damage code
Ranger X-T N/A 6+ troll only str min +5 s Weight 2.5
Note because the length of the draw is why it is usable only by trolls.
Higher str min can be gotten, anything over 10 (for you sam's) costs
x 3.
cost 300Y x str min arrows 25Y
comes with the accessories mount. stree index 3
availibilty 7/48 hrs legality 5-D arrows 10-D
Range
Type short medium long extreme
X-T bow 0-str str x 10 str x 30 str x 70
>>>>>[ I was impressed. The new X-L was so strong that I couldn't harldy
even pull back the string, yet Little John did it with ease. Not only that
but the bow had to stand about 2m meters tall. The arrows were huge, they
were almost as tall as me! at 1.5 metters tall they should be called spears!!.
Little John fell in love with the bow instanly, he just picked it up, did a full
draw ( something no ather bow has let him do) and shot it. It sunk so far
into the cement target that they had to pull it out from the other
side]<<<<<
-Robin Hood <13:56:43/03-07-54>
>>>>>[ It was awesome. This Troll steps out of the van with a bow that
is taller than me. He reached back in and grabbed an arrow that was my height!
Then he just pulled back a shot it at the Banshee!! The thing was, the arrow
went in!!! It must have hit the driver because the next thing I know the
Banshee was slammin into a building. The troll just got back into the van and
it pulled away.]<<<<<
-tweed <23:15:45/03-24-54>
>>>>>[ It a fragging Balistia!!!! ]<<<<<
-henry ive <12:12:23/04-02-54>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Waisley Lglumka@***.grove.iup.edu --------(-- IUP FENCING
SCA - Shire of Robledol, Households - Cryptic Demesne (fencing) + Brotherhood
of Agincourt (archery),
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry for any bad grammer or spelling, etc. My mind works at 637
thoughts per minute, and my hands at 1.2 letters per second
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 14:30:00 EDT
Reply-To: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Subject: skillsofts question
can skillsofts be downloaded to a memory storage pack?
then can those skillsofts be accessed by some headware (datajack + i/o spu
or encephalon) and the whole softlink + skillsoft problem be ignored?
searching for opinions...
patric
progers@******.bitnet
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 14:29:29 EDT
Reply-To: Dark Elf <VESPOSIT@****.SUNYSB.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Dark Elf <VESPOSIT@****.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject: free spirit poli
If one chooses to run a group of Spirit rights fanatics, they will most likely
carry the prejudice that all conjurers enslave thier spirits. (lets face it,
the game mechanics force you towards that, how can you treat an elemental as
an equal when you have to use up part of it for most actions, it can be done
if you roleplay it right but the mechanics make it easier not to)
The point is that even if a mage genuinely treats spirits as equals or better,
and has never allowed a spirit to come to harm unless it agreed to accept the
risk, these loony fanatics will still see them as slavers. The point is that
people like that will think what they want to, even when presented with data
to the contrary.
I'm not justifying this, agreeing with it, or saying that it has to exist,
just that it is possible, and would make for interesting role-playing
situations!
Dark Elf
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 15:05:40 -0500
Reply-To: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania
Subject: lots of stuff
topics to cover
1. melee combat
2. manipulation spells and spell defense/shielding
3. spell defense and shielding area
4. phys. ad. and shielding
1. Melee combat
this has to do with reaction, combat and who attacks when.
melee 1 attacker success
2 defender success
3 compare success
4 determine damage
5 resist damage
characters Maug - the sam - 6 bod, 17 reaction +4d6 init, melee 6
CP = 10
(muscle aug, super thyroid, cerebral boost, enhanced art
and wired 3)
Sam - the sam - 6 bod, 10 reaction +2d6 init melee 8 CP= 8
Well Maug decides to attack Sam.
init Maug = 31 Sam = 17
action 31 Maug attacks Sam
Maug melee 6 + cp 6 and gets 4 successes
Sam melee 8 + cp 4 and gets 6 successes as defender
so Sam - Who can't even act yet hurts Maug
action 21 Maug attacks Sam
Maug melee 6 + cp 6 and gets 4 successes
Sam melee 8 + cp 4 and gets 6 successes as defender
so Sam - Who can't even act YET hits Maug Again
action 17 Sam's CP regens and he attacks Maug
Sam melee 8 + CP 4 gets 7 successes
Maug melee 6 + CP 4 gets 2 successes because he was hurt
so Sam - finally got to attack knocks out Maug
on his first attack - but he was able to do much more before then
because of the system
is this assumption correct?????
2. Ok you can use spell defense and shielding vs a combat spell.
but shielding and spell def will not work vs a damaging manipultion
spell has already taken effect and the effect is coming towards
you.
ex - fireball at another mage
target # 4 body + 6 shielding and gets spell defense
Flame bomb at another mage
target is always 4 then resist with body and combat pool
with help from 1/2 impact armor - you can't use
spell defense because the spell wasn't centered on you
but rather on a point in the room.
please explain
3. is spell defense area affect?
yes - pg 132 SRII - "This is an area affect that encompasses all
characters or objects in the magicians vision the he chooses to protect.
no - same page in the example
so neddy spends 2 dice from the spell defense pool
on each of them ( total 4 dice )
spell defense becomes shielding on initiation right?
so level 0 and sorcery 6 = 6 possible shielding
and level 2 with sor 6 = 6 poss and 2 probable shielding
4. As to phys. ad. - I say give them shielding equal to their grade
just like a mage has - but only on self.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Waisley Lglumka@***.grove.iup.edu --------(-- IUP FENCING
SCA - Shire of Robledol, Households - Cryptic Demesne (fencing) + Brotherhood
of Agincourt (archery),
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry for any bad grammer or spelling, etc. My mind works at 637
thoughts per minute, and my hands at 1.2 letters per second
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 13:06:28 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shadowland
Scott Madaski,
You and your friends have way too much free time on your hands. Still I'm
sure Tom Dowd meant for that to be the location of Shadowland. It would have
been too large a coincident for you to get to a place just like the one in the
book when you followed the directions. Still, to steal a little of your
thunderI don't think those exact directions would work in 2054.
Mostly I think it was an inside joke of the author.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 16:18:39 -0500
Reply-To: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania
Subject: shadowland
for shadowland
I have not read the book but have a few questions
First of all he counted the turns right?
but how could he count the places were they didn't turn
Now since they could have been incorrect at this point could not
have some of the turns been turns in the road but not changes
in roads ( ie figurative 9th street turns and hits 6th street then
if you turn again you are on 6th - two turns but only
one street)
this of course would be a much better question if I read
the book.
Nightfox
gee an orientaion computer
would have helped him alot
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Waisley Lglumka@***.grove.iup.edu --------(-- IUP FENCING
SCA - Shire of Robledol, Households - Cryptic Demesne (fencing) + Brotherhood
of Agincourt (archery),
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry for any bad grammer or spelling, etc. My mind works at 637
thoughts per minute, and my hands at 1.2 letters per second
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 16:47:00 EDT
Reply-To: Last of the Brigadoons <MKNABUSCH@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Last of the Brigadoons <MKNABUSCH@******.BITNET>
Subject: Shadowland...etc
All Netter types,
Why can't the shadowland hub be centered in the Acadamy
building. Take a really close look into ANY of FASA's games.
Check out the details. Most of the games have a large portion
of reality built in. Take the Great Ghost Dance, for example.
Believe it or not (as you will) there is actually such a thing.
It exists. There is a lot in Shadowrun, if you look close enough,
that is actually based on something real. Kinda wewird but cool.
Hey Scott, hope Kevin laughed his butt off when he got there.
I know I would have.
Harlequin
-Aka Michael Knabusch
P.S. The person who found it happens to go the the Air Force Acadamy out
there. Real wizzer of a guy. If he has too much time on his hands at
THAT place...well...nevermind.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 13:34:58 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Lots of stuff
Some Helpful comments (for all of you how aren't on shadowtk)
from One Who Knows Too Much (me) (Damn fingers typing before I think)
to One Who Ask Alot (Daniel):
1. Melee combat
The battle as you described it is to the best of my knowledge exactly how it
is supposed to work. If you mean to imply it's out of hand you could be right
or wrong. Remember that melee combat is not the you attack when you can and
I attack when I can fight that ranged combat is. Everytime you attack you leave
yourself open for a counterattack. I'm sure as a fencer you know this is true.
That's why someone can counterattack, multiple times if necessary, before they
have any actions of their own. But remember the combat pools can make a big
difference in who the fight turns out.
Now I'm pretty sure your example is valid, because my mage (Raven) beat two
astrally projecting mages when she was only astrally precieving (God I love my
magesword) in pretty much the same manner (well I did use a drek load of karma,
but so did one of them).
2. Ok you can use spell defense and shielding vs a combat spell.
but shielding and spell def will not work vs a damaging manipultion
spell has already taken effect and the effect is coming towards
you.
That's right. When a damaging manipulation spell is cast the attack is
created at a particular point in real space (the casters hand for individual
attacks, the center of the area for area effect attacks). The substance then
streaks to the target and tries to hit him. Since your not resisting magic but
an element (ex - fire) shielding an spell defense mean nothing. Combat pool on
the other hand becomes rather useful at this point.
3. is spell defense area affect?
I believe in the way your asking the question that Spell Defense (and
shielding) are not area effet. That is to say any one particular Spell Defense
die can only protect one person at a time. The magician can allocate dice to
anyone he can see (the area of effect), but each die can only be allocated to
one person.
4. As to phys. ad. - I say give them shielding equal to their grade
just like a mage has - but only on self.
That my opinion on the matter.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 14:41:15 -0700
Reply-To: MATUSKEY@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Ed Matuskey <MATUSKEY@***.EDU>
Subject: Intelligent spirits
Spirits/elementals are intelligent, independent beings, for one very good
reason:
Free spirits.
Why do spirits try to escape their master at the first oppourtunity? Why do
they feel obligated to kill said master? Why do the continue to exist when
the conjurer dies? Because they are living entities, who don't like being
bound.
To all those who protest that they're nice to their spirits: just because
you're nice to a slave, doesn't mean they're not slaves. Not all slave
owners abuse their slaves. Yes, this means even you, Raven: you treat yours
like pets, feeling sorry for them when you want them to do something
hazardous, but sending them anyway.
Oh, and about the summoning ceremony being the bargaining: I don't think so.
That might work for shamans (although that's pretty fast talking: one action
to summon a spirit!), but the price magicians pay merely reflects the
substances they need: the elemental isn't getting anything out of it. It's
like saying you're buying the very best chains for your slaves, and they
should appreciate it.
Some more thoughts later.
-Ed
-Highlander
Going for the moral high ground (I'm glad I play a decker)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 18:23:03 -0400
Reply-To: mmd <mmd@***.UMD.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: mmd <mmd@***.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Being hit by your own spells
I have a question. I assume that mages/shamans can take damage from their
own spells. I have been playing the game with that in mind since I can
remember when one of my players asked me to justify that fact. I searched
thru the book, but couldn't find anywhere that actually said you could take
damage from your own spells. Could someone please tell me if it's true
that you can take damage and where the book says so, or if I'm wrong
tell me that too...
Thanx alot.........
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Andrew C. Danforth [====] mmd@***.umd.edu
-----------------------------------------
)> Blame all the typos on the keyboard <(
-----------------------------------------
>>>>>[So I'm strange... Your point?]<<<<<
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
telnet louie.cc.utexas.edu 9999
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 18:59:10 -0500
Reply-To: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania
Subject: my stuff and gettin hit
Ok first of all thanks Jason for the input.
With the first two - what I had stated was
my opinion but I wanted other input.
with the third I had no Idea and needed input
and the fourth was just input.
AREA affect see page 130 right side in SRII under area-effect
"... Regardless of the magician's intent, area-effect spells affect all
valid targets, friend, foe, and neutral alike, within the area-effect."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Waisley Lglumka@***.grove.iup.edu --------(-- IUP FENCING
SCA - Shire of Robledol, Households - Cryptic Demesne (fencing) + Brotherhood
of Agincourt (archery),
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry for any bad grammer or spelling, etc. My mind works at 637
thoughts per minute, and my hands at 1.2 letters per second
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 17:22:03 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: I'm no slaver!
Good hypothesis, Ed. But there's a problem. If I look at this from one of
the hermetic points of view, in fact the one that UCAS elemental law is build
around your wrong.
The view is that an elemental doesn't exist until it is summoned by a mage.
At that point some energy form the elemental metaplane in question combines
with the magical energy of the mage in question to form the elemental. The
elementals intelligence is a reflection of the summoning mage's own
intelligence magical energy. There are many pieces of supporting evidence for
this line of thought. The first is that elementals cannot come to this plane
without being summoned. The second is that a mage can only control a limited
number of elementals at a time. That is because they bind the elemental to a
facet of themself to give it life. The third is that Allies (I know their not
elementals, but they are spirits) have mental characteristics equal to those
of the summoner.
Why do spirits try to escape from the summoner? Because it's exactly what
the caster would try to do if someone bound him to his will.
Why do they often try to kill the summoner? Either revenge or to avoid being
bound again.
Why do they continue to exist when the conjurer dies? In fact very few do.
Most disappear to never be heard from again. The few that do are of such strong
force that they manage to hold themselves together using the mind template that
they gained when they were created.
As for Raven or other mages who are nice to their spirits, they way they treat
them is exactly the way a K-9 police officer treats their dog. They are nice to
them and feel sorry for them when they are sent into danger, but they do it
anyway.
Now for shamans bargaining or not bargaining with nature spirits, you forget
just what shamans are. They are servants of the Totems, servants of Nature.
When they call on Nature for help, Nature is very happy to respond. There is
no bargaining, its just done.
You can go for the Moral High Ground if you want Ed, but its hard to stay on
top of a sandy hill :)
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 23:12:00 EDT
Reply-To: Blaidd mab Ceryddwen <MHILLIARD@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Blaidd mab Ceryddwen <MHILLIARD@******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: I'm no slaver!
Bad logic
worse logic
You don't know that, it's only a theory
inconclusive
the evidence is spurious and circumstantial
All trout have fins
sharks have fins
Therefore, sharks are trout <=-bad logic, an example
Michael Hilliard
(AKA Phelan Curfa,
Cat Dancing & crew)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 23:27:00 EDT
Reply-To: Blaidd mab Ceryddwen <MHILLIARD@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Blaidd mab Ceryddwen <MHILLIARD@******.BITNET>
Subject: Oh, and I forgot to add...
Y'all are still too rules-dogmatic
Phelan
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 23:04:33 -0500
Reply-To: TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Rob Rubin <TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Wow, recognition!
I feel so, Important! (ha!)
Well, I don't have a cool mailer like all you folks, so I have to do this the
hard way, analog.
Patric (Dark Lord Aspirant) said (to the effect)
(It regards to the 'extra limbs' string)
He had drawn on my 'Shadowfurries' post as to the body cost on adding new arms
(as a bio-ware addition.) He also added that the bioware cost involved in
anything is closely related to a cyberware cost as well.
And yes, he's right, to an extent. There is a similarity, but it differs to
the side of cyber being a bit cheaper.
Crossfire replied (to the effect)
"Genetics in Shadowrun is not supposed to be that far advanced as in
'Shadowfurries', but diffrent people play diffrent levels of tech - and it was
such a neat post - I didn't bother sayint anything."
(Thanks...) He goes on about his fencing expirence, and how another limb
would be too much of a bother. I tend to agree on this. A tail, as they tend
to be, is relatively out of the way for mundaine tasks like shooting, decking,
and (to an extent) running. [Personally, I would like a word with the guys in
the evolution department about losing prehensile tails...]
Someone in this mess had mentioned about how many neural lines an arm has when
compared to a tail, but keep in mind that a tail has no fingers, it's basically
an extension of the spinal cord that is highly flexable.
But on an essense-cost ratio for shadowfurry, I harken back to Grimore1. It
says under spell making (No book, I just recall this one.) That half the
spells in the SR blue-book (SR1) were assigned a drain code that 'looked good'
and made sense. Same went for Shadowfurry, to an extent. The costs just
'felt right'. (Then again, I made the rules when we went on the most BORING
vacation ever... they were well thought out, to say the least.)
Oh yeah, If 'yall would like to see more shadowfurry packages, please mail
me at the above address (I'm working on a centaur type, it's tougher than you
would think...)
(Drat, I forgot to mention something...) I think that Sfurry can be considered
'in time' for the main book. Modern science can do some nifty tricks, one
being cloning (We can do it now, just not very well.)
So what's to stop a scientist from cloning an organ (skin) and manipulating
the genes (the ones we know about that control it) to induce it to grow 'fur'?
Just a thought...
-Tyger
(PS:Am I rambling again?)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 12:42:42 MDT
Reply-To: "I am wicked, I am Legion" <legion@**************.ARMY.MIL>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "I am wicked, I am Legion" <legion@**************.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: S. Huth's new items
Steve,
thanks for writing up the stats on monowire rounds. The only thing that
I might modify is the legality; military/police. I don't have any rulz
with me right now (standard excuse) and am not sure of the code if there is
one specifically for military/police. I bring this up only because the
round was originally designed for police special units (SWAT).
Other than that, great job! I especially like the damage. Dead on.
BTW, exactly how are the magazines placed on the Ares assault rifle
(something - 9 - something)? This is a cool idea, but remember, when
you switch ammo feed, the round in the tube is still the previous type.
(Or did you come up with a different feed system?)
_________________________________
Mike Loseke | Behold, here cometh the Dreamer.
legion@**************.army.mil | Let us slay him, and we shall see
Minister of Death - SWO | what will become of his dreams.
_________________________________|
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 19:43:59 +0200
Reply-To: "David B. Beck" <BECK5338@********.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "David B. Beck" <BECK5338@********.BITNET>
Organization: State University of New York - College at Fredonia
Subject: Slaves of a different kind
I've been following the slave discussion and it reminded me
of something I used in a run once. The players were going
against a magical group that was kidnapping young magicians.
The higher level initiates in the group were using these
novices as "batteries" (the players came up with that name.)
Basically, the initiate had the person drugged and a control
manipulation was quickened over them ( at a very high level).
Then the initiate used the "battery" as a source of pool.
Drain becomes a thing of the past. There is also the advantage
of spell defense being there whenever needed. Now, the easiest
way for the runners to defeat this enemy would be to kill the
"batteries". Unfortunately, they were the people that the
runners had to rescue. It was a neat problem.
Later,
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 10:55:47 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason P. Venner" <venner@******.COM>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason P. Venner" <venner@******.COM>
Subject: Queston on Initiate Masking
A PC want's to cast a quickened spell on a being, and then use
initiate masking to prevent the spell from being noticed until it is to late...
Can this be done?
If so, what does it cost?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 11:13:31 -0700
Reply-To: HAHN@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: stefan hahn <HAHN@***.EDU>
Subject: More Ammo!
Considering the size of a shotgun shell, you should be able to pack a lot
of stuff in there instead of some boring pellets. Some suggestions:
Flare rounds: some kind of bright & fast-burning mag-compund
chemical ignited at firing, visible for miles, if used as a weapon would
tend to set things on fire.
Incendiary rounds: spray your target with WP or Napalm-4, and he'd
be hating life.
Smoke or Gas rounds: More than enough space in a shell for a
smokescreen for cover, or a little nerve toxin...
Liquid rounds: a plastic shell filled with DMSO/Hyper or whatever
that shatters and splashes on impact.
Fletchette rounds: a shell filled w/ needles instead of pellets.
etc.
If anyone has any idea what game stats would be for these, I'm open to
suggestions. Our combat mage would love to hear 'em.
--Moonwalker
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 14:24:24 -0400
Reply-To: Brian Angliss <angliss@******.PSU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Brian Angliss <angliss@******.PSU.EDU>
Subject: My GURPS to ShadowRun Psionics System
Here it is. Finally. As a note that I forgot to input into the actual file
Psionics works in Space(orbit), unlike Magic(for most of your games anyway...)
Finally, here it comes. My Psionics post. What follows are my rules for
running psionics in my game. As usual, any additional information that you wish
to tell me is up to you. Have fun.
Psionics in ShadowRun(II)
A psionics is a human or metahuman who has the ability to perform
various unusual skills or has strange abilities not readily categorized as magic
and not duplicable by technology(not yet, anyway). They are actually mental
adepts, people who train their fantastic willpower to be able to alter the very
fabric of space and Astral by sheer force of will. Psionics are very rare and
it is unlikely that any true psionic will voluntarily reveal him/herself to be
such, as psionics are hunted and feared by everyone for being mutants. Many
psionics have severely unbalanced minds and are potentially dangerous. But
others, who were lucky enough to have avoided extreme mental trauma, are
relatively normal.
Psionics Priorities and requirements:
C: Magic(Human Psionic)
D: Magic(Metahuman Psionic)
In addition to the priority levels above, the psionic MUST have a
Willpower of 6 and an Intelligence minimum of 4. Anyone can be a psionic, but
you must declare your desire to be one before making the character. Psionic
ability is independent of your Essence so you can be a Street Samurai with an
Essence of .1 and be a Psionic. However, you cannot be a magician and a
psionic, as channeling astral energy through you inexorably alters your mind
against FORCING its power to create effects. It is really a psychological
thing, but it is permanent.
Psi points:
These are points that you get to "expend" in purchasing various psi
abilities. Most of the powers are based off your willpower.
Psi Points= (Willpower)+(Intelligence)+(Charisma/2) for an average of
around 10-13 points that are spent on abilities.
Special advantages of Psionics:
Besides the abilities of a psionic, he or she can raise their willpower
rating 2 points above Racial Maximim, or up to a 6 for Trolls. Psionics get a
special kind of focus called "Catalyst Creatures," but there is more on them
later.
Psionic Ablilities and Psi Point cost:
Astral Perception: this is your run of the mill astral perception that
any full magician can do easily.
Point cost: 2
Astral Projection: this is simple astral projection, but with a change.
The maximum amount of time that the psionic can stay in Astral Space is
Essence+Willpower in hours instead of just Essence hours. Astral attributes
don't change at all from normal.
Point Cost: 3(grants Astral Perception too)
Aural Masking: this is the ability of the psionic to mask his/her aura
at an effective Willpower "Initiate" level. This is the base, and any Psionic
initiations after add their level to this base. This makes the psionic well
hidden to any normal mage and to most but the most powerful initiates.
Point cost: 4
Mind Over Body: the psionic gets several advantages from this ability.
They get a -1Box on all stun damage at all times. When it is actively
performed, this ability gets (1.5xWillpower) dice to resist stun damage instead
of the base Willpower. It has no drain.
Point cost: 1
Mind Shield: the psionic gets an effective armor of his/her Willpower
against all mental attacks, Psi or Magical, when raised. However, the maximum
time that it can remain raised is (Willpower)minutes and the drain every minute
for holding it is (Willpower)M.
Point Cost: 1
Heal: remarkably similar to the spell Heal, this ability is powerful
and doesn't suffer the one-use per wound limitation of the spell. The target
numbers for healing this spell are 2 for a L wound, 4 for a M wound, 6 for a S
wound, and 8 for a D wound. Every success reduces damage by one box, and the
drain is (Target's wound Target from above)(Target's Wound Level).
Point cost: 3
Immunity to Pathogens: this grants the psionic his/her Willpower in
"armor" to resist all pathogens, unless they are specifically designed to attack
psioncs and psi energy. It is unconscious, meaning it works all the time.
Point cost: 4
Immunity to Toxins: this is just like Immunity to Pathogens, but also
works against toxins specifically designed to degrade/enhance psi. However,
there are toxins that may or may not be affected(see GM).
Point cost: 5
Body Control: this ability allows the psionic to unconsciously resist
all environmental extremes, like fire/heat, ice/cold, acid, etc. This acts like
armor(willpower rating) against these types of attacks.
Point cost: 3
Illusion: this is the ability of the psionic to make a limited area,
full sensory illusion. Maximum area of effect is (Willx5)m radius and the
maximum time of maintainence is (Will)minutes. Drain is (Area affected)S per
minute.
Point cost: 1
Mirrors: this lets the psionic generate real time illusions of
him/herself up to Will number of reflections. This causes the first attack to
miss automatically, and all other attacks are at +3 TN to hit. However, the
psionic's associates are under this same target modifier to NOT hit him/her.
Drain is (Will)M per combat turn, but the ability can be maintained as long as
drain is resisted.
Point cost: 2
Cloak: this gives the psionic the ability to mask him/herself by
bending light around their physical body, much like a bandersnatch does. The
additional target modification is +(Willpower)TN to any attacker/observer.
Sound, smell, and emitted thermo raditation are not affected. It also grants
the psionic limited armor(Will/2) to resist energy attacks, like lasers. Drain
is (Will)S per combat turn if in combat and the same every 10 seconds normal
time.
Point cost: 4
Beam Projection: this is a channeling of EM energy into a coherent beam
to do damage. Armor to resist is at 1/2 impact or use something like a cyborg's
energy armor. Damage is (Will.+Init. Grade)S, and the drain is (Will)S.
Point cost: 5
Jolt: the psionic has the ability to do electrical stun damage to the
tune of (Will)S stun on touch. No drain.
Point cost: 2
Lightining: the psionic can do (Will)S physical and (Will+2)D stun for
each charge emitted. Range is sight. Any metal(like a knife or a gun) causes a
+2 TN to resist damage due to burning effects. It may also ignite flammable
materials on the target, like grenades and clothing. Drain is (Will)S.
Point cost: 5(includes jolt ability)
Surge: this is the ability to damage electrical devices with power
spikes. Damage is (Will+Init. Grade) 'barrier' to the electronics of the device
only. This is somewhat nebulous, so use the GM's judgement. Drain is (Will)L.
Point cost: 3
Confuse: with this the psionic can jumble the electrical currents in a
brain, adding (Will+Init. Grade) to ALL target numbers. If this exceeds the
target's (Will+Int+Chr/2) in total attributes, the confusion becomes permanent
until Karma is spent to reduce it at 1 Good Karma per +1 TN modifier. It costs
no drain, but must be maintained.
Point cost: 3
CyberPsi: this grants the psionic the ability to access/scramble/read/
control all electrical devices that he/she touches. Concentration must be
maintained at a +1 TN, and a drain of(Will)S per 10 seconds(minimum of 1 test
per use). This does include cyberdecks.
Point cost: 5
Sensory Expansion: this is a full sensory expansion, including the psi
equilivant of Amplified hearing, Damped hearing, Optical Magnification 1,
Olfactory Booster, Low-Light sight, Thermographic vision, High and Low Frequency
hearing, and a Select sound filter at a rating of (Willpower). It is all
unconscious and has no drain.
Point cost: 4
Danger Sense: this is the ability of the psionic to know when he or she
is in danger, or when danger is around. It is unconscious and allows a
perception test at -2 TN when in dangerous situation, but works only for the
psionic.
Point cost: 3
Seeker Sense: while concentrating, this skill lets the psionic track an
object or person. Max range is Willx10km, accuracy is ot +/- 5 meters, but if
the target leaves this maximum range, the tracking is broken. The person/object
to be tracked must be seen to initiate tracking. It has no drain.
Point cost: 4
Combat Sense: this allows the psionic to add his/her willpower to
his/her combat pool at all times. No drain.
Point cost: 5
Precognition: this ability is literally to see, with blanks and holes,
the immediate future up to the psionic's Willpower in days. This is limited due
to the ability of intelligent beings to alter their own destiny. The more karma
or threat rating or Professional rating points the observed persons in the
vision have, the less certain the precognition is. It must be maintained for a
number of minutes equal to the number of days the psionic is looking ahead, and
the drain is (Willpower+# of days seen)D.
Point cost: 7
Telekinesis: the psionic can pick up and move (Will+grade)x5 objects
and (Will+grade)x50 kg total. If uses for weapon purposes, the damage is
(Will+(mass of object/10))M physical crushing damage. Drain is (Will)M per
turn/action.
Point cost: 3
Cryokineses: this is the ability of the psionic to drastically cool a
target. If living, the target suffers a (Will)M freezing damage and a possible
gangrenous infection upon thawing. Nonliving targets temporarily lose (Will)
barrier rating due to brittleness. Drain is (Will)M.
Point cost: 4
Pyrokinesis: the psionic can heat/ignite a target for (Will)S burn
damage, or temporarily reduce the rating of barriers by (Will+grade). It also
ignites flammable targets, but cannot generate explosions and such as this skill
heats the entire target, not a part of it. Drain is (WIll)S.
Point cost: 5
Ice Air: this is the ability to freeze the air around the psionic and
has two very spectacular effects. It can provide a sheild at an additional
(Will+grade)/2 armor vs impact/ballistic/heat/beam damage from the front only.
It can also create an Ice missile that does (Will+grade)M and is at -2 ballistic
armor. Drain is (Will)S.
Point cost: 5
Pykinetic Sheild: this is the rapid heating of an incoming projectile
or bladed object, making it softer and reducing its damage by -1 Power and -1
Damage code. Ceramics and similar objects(like Dikote) are not affected.
Bullets, blades, arrows, and the like are affected. Drain is (Will)S every 3
seconds.
Point cost: 6
Telempathy: this allows the psionic to receive emotions from all
unshielded/blocked targets. It also lets him/her send emotions to up to his/her
(Willpower)# of targets at a (Target's Willpower)M drain.
Point cost: 3
Telesence: this is the ablility to receive the sensory input of an
unshielded target and send the psionic's own sensory input to another. Drain is
(Will)M regardless of sending or recieving.
Point cost: 5
Telecontrol: the ability to force another person to perform certain
specific actions. Every time the target wants to do somthing you dont' want
them to do, he/she gets a resistance test. Drain is(Target's willpower)S every
minute or every time the target tries to resist the control.
Point cost: 6
Mindblow: this is a blast of pure telepathic energy directed toward a
target's mind, doing (Will+grade)S stun per attack. The drain is (Will)M per
attack and it ignores all armor(except mind shield).
Point cost: 2
MindWipe: this allows the psionic to erase or hide, at his/her option,
memories, experiences, traits, etc. of a target. Theoretically, the memory of
how to breathe or how to make the heart beat could be erased too, but it would
be very difficult. Drain is (Target's Body+Target's Willpower)D.
Point cost: 7
Gestalt: This is the ability of the psionic to link together many other
psionics, up to Will+grade in number, to allow instant access to all involved
psionics to each other's skills. The willpowers of all the psionics are added,
and there is an additional +1 per involved psionic to show that the whole is
larger than the sum of its parts. Drain for this skill is (Total Gestalt
Willpower)D stun only after the gestalt is broken.
Point cost: 8
Psionic Initiation:
Unlike magical initiation, the psionic initiation does not start at a
grade 0, but at a grade 1. No special abilities are granted to a psionic at
grade 0, so why bother? Every level grants the psionic a special, radically
improved ability and an additional psi point to work with. The karma cost to
improve yourself is 3xNext Grade, so a grade 1 costs three karma, grade 2 costs
6, etc. However, a magician gets the benefits from his/her initiation
immediately. A psionic has to wait for a base number of months equal to the
grade desired, doing nothing but exercising and practicing their psi abilities.
They roll their willpower to reduce this time against a target number of 7+grade
desired to reduce the time of study, introspection, and exercise.
Psionic Initiation Skills: Unless otherwise noted, these cost one free level of
initiation per skill.
Quick Freeze: this is the ability of the psionic to rapidly freeze a
non-living object and temporarily drop its barrier rating by (Willx1.5). If
targeted on a living being, it freezes them into cryonesis/hibernation. Time to
do this is 10 seconds, and the drain is (Will+1)M
Quick Thaw: this allows the psionic to thaw out a Quick Frozen organic
being at the precise speed to guarantee survival, or to thaw him/her/it too
fast, probabily killing it really quickly. Make a resisted test, your
Will(tartet's Bod+1) vs their Bod(Willpower) if the choice is to kill the
target. Drain is (Will+1)M
Meditation: this is a radically improved version of Mind Over Body,
enabling the psionic to recover from stun damage(heal it) at 5x normal rate
while concentrating. No drain, but it must be maintained for the full time with
no distractions or the psionic must start over.
Reflective Mind Shield: this improved Mind Shield reflects all mental
attacks back on the attacker, doing whatever damage would have been done to the
attacker at 1/2 damage. The psionic must resist the remaining half. However,
this still grants the user the (Will) mental armor while raised. The 'Mind
Shield' is also something of a misnoemer, as it protects the entire aura and
thereby grants its advantages against all Psi and magical attacks of this form
(including mana spells). Max time raised is (Will) minutes and the drain is
(Will+2)M per 15 seconds.
Clairsentience: this is the ability to extend all the psionic's natural
senses to allow concurrent sight and hearing through walls, etc. If the
psionics has Sensory Expansion or has spent essence for sensory modifications,
this ablility extends to those as well. Drain is (WIll)M every minute and the
object to be sensed through must be touched.
Psi Static: this is the ability to cause a major distraction to all
psionics within the area of the static, excepting only the user him/herself.
ALL target numbers for distracted psionics are at +(Will/2) and psionic ability
use is at a total of +(Will) TN. Maximum area is (Willx10)m radius and the
drain is (Will+1)S every minute.
Disentegrate: this is the ability to permanently dissolve barrier
ratings by the psionic's (Willx2) total every minute. Used against a person,
this does a (Will)D physical wound, cannot be dodged, and armor value it at 1/2
impact. Armor is dissolved at -1 point per hit permanently if used in combat.
Drain is (Will+1)S, and the maximum range is (Willx5)meters.
Power Storm: this is the ability to cause a massive electrical
disturbance throughout the area of effect. However, if it is centered around
the psionic, it will cause its effects to ALL around the psionic in its area of
effect, including friends. Area is (Willx3)meters and primary damage is (Will)S
physical damage. Persons within the are of effect who are wearing metal are
subject to an additional (Will-2)M physical due to burns. The Power Storm can
also ignite flammable/explosive objects/devices. Also, the storms effects can
be felt outside the area of effect. Objects in excess of 10kg of metal outside
the area will draw the lightning effects of the power storm to them, and damage
is incrued normally. Drain is (Will+3)S.
Fire Storm: This ability allows the psionic to focus a massive
pryokinetic attack onto a specific part of an object instead of the entire
object like Pyrokinesis does. It can melt targets, cause explosions, fires,
etc. Maximum damage due to melting is -(Will) barrier, Maximum damage due to an
explosion is -(Willx2) barrier. A focused fire shield now reduces physical
attacks as (Willx2) armor when raised against ANY physical attacks. The target
number for attacking an actual person is their (Body+2) and base damage is
(Willpower)D physical wound with fire side-effects. Finally, the psionic can
affect everything within (Willx2)m radius, centered on the caster, but doing
fire damage to all persons/vehicles/walls/floors/etc. within the area. Drain
for the shield is (Will)M per turn and maximum time of maintaining is 10
minutes. Drain for melting is (Will)L and damage is fully done in 5 turns(15
seconds). Explosions are instantaneous, but thier drain is (Will+2)S.
Attacking a person is a (Will+3)S drain per attack, and the Area effect version
has a drain of (Will+2)D every turn, but damage is accrued every action
maintained.
DreamKill: this is the ability to enter a sentient creature`s sleeping
and unshielded mind in order to induce a fatal nightmare, killing the physical
person as well. Kinda like Freddy Krueger... Several tests must be made in
order for this to work properly.
Test 1: make a resisted Willpower roll to get into the target's
mind.
Test 2: make a resisted Willpower roll against the target's
Willpower+2 to gain control of their dreams.
Test 3: Make a final resisted Willpower test against the
target's Willpowerx2 to kill him/her.
If any of these tests fail, the psionic gets a kickback/kickout from the
target, doing a base (Target's Willpower)D physical(resist with Willpower) to
attacking psionic. Also, due to the intimate nature of this ability, the target
must be seen to initiate DreamKill, but not to finish it. If the target
survives or the psionic gets kicked out, he or she instantly knows who the
attacker is and has an imprinted facial/aural signature to identify them with.
Molecular Missile: this is the generation of a coherent molecular
missile/blade out of individual molecules. This peirces ALL known armor and up
to the psionic's Willpower in barrier rating. This enables the missile to cut
through barriers with ease, and the damage it does to to people is [(1.5xWill)
+3]S. Vehicle damage does not reduce this attack due to its armor unless its
Armor value is higher than the psionic's Willpower. Drain is (Will+3)S.
Combat Teleport: Unlike the above abilities, this ability requires two
unused initiation grades before it can be acquired. It replaces your combat
pool when you desire it to do so with a superfast blink to another, random
location. Roll a willpower(attacker's skill) test. Every success moves you one
meter in a random direction. This is a passive defense only. If the psionic
ends up in a solid object, like the ground or a wall, return teleport is
automatic on the next combat phase. The random direction includes up and down,
so you could end up down a floor in a building or 4 meters in the air, and
unless you manifest inside a solid object(or at least partially), you are stuck
there and have to find your own way back(like falling...). Due to an
+ adreniline reacition, the drain is pushed off until 2 combat actions have
+ passed, at which
point it is (Will+3)D stun.
Endo/Exo Trans: this ability allows the psionic to teleport other
things besides him/herself and requires two free, unused initiation levels.
Maximum mass is (Will)kg, and the range is sight. If used as a weapon, like
teleporting a rock into a target's head, then use assult rifle ranges for target
numbers. Base damage is (Mass of teleported object)S physical. However, this
kind of really nasty use is always at +6TN to hit a specific part(like a head or
teleporting a heart out of the target's chest) instead of +4. Drain is
(Will+4)D stun per teleport.
>>>>>>Important Teleport Note!!!!: Teleportation is the physical
transformation
of mass into some little known form of astral energy, allowing instant movement
of the mass. Astral barriers are not effective against Psionics teleport(but
may be against magical teleport) as the psionic's heavily trained willpower and
mind are strong enought to hold the body together for the nothingth of a second
that it takes for transition. Also, there are two modes of transition:
castling and displacement. Castling is the swapping of the teleported matter
for the matter there is/was at the target destination. An example would be a
combat teleport of a psionic 4 meters down into solid rock. As she appears
there, an exact duplicate of her will appear where she was to start with.
Displacement is the teleportation, but moving existing matter aside when the
teleported mass gets there, creating a large "explosion" on the recieving end
and an "implosion" on the sending end. Combat teleport is ALWAYS the castling
type to insure safety.
Psi Foci:
Psionics get only one type of foce, called a catalyst creature. It is
an animal that serves to increase the psionic's willpower to use psi abilities.
For this purpose, the psionic's willpower and the animal's are added together to
use psi powers or defend against psionic attacks. This does not include attacks
that do physical damage or mana spells, unless a sheild of some kind is raised.
+ All catalyst creatures are psionic in thier own right, having a total number
+ of
abilities equal to their intelligence, and all their mental attributes are 2
higher than comparable memebers of the species. However, the creature can never
increase the number of these powers, nor can they initiate psionically. As far
as paranormal powers in a catalyst creature, the creature gets these powers in
addition to their psi powers. Finally, the creature and the psionic are capable
of a modified form of telepathy, knowing each other's thoughts instantly over
any distance. They can also use each other's senses and utilize each other's
psi abilities.
Finding a catalyst creature is very difficult as they are even more rare
than psionics. Base time is 60 days of uninterupted concentration during which
the psionic is nearly comatose, can't eat or drink, and is totally helpless.
The target number to find one is the psionic's Willpower plus the Target
animal's willpower, adjusted for rarity. This adjustment is a nebulous
multiplier. For example, a catalyst Dog might just be the normal target
number(multiplier 1), but a catalyst wyvern could very easily be 3+ times the
base target number. If the calling is successful, the psionic must spend Good
Karma equal to the creature's Willpowerx2 to bond it permanently. The psionic
also suffers a (Creature's Willx1.5)D stun wound and a (# of days spent
calling)S physical wound from bodily stress. If the calling is unsuccessful,
the psionic suffers the same wounds as above, but also goes into an automatic
full coma for the number of days equal to the number of days spent calling.
After calling and bonding a creature, the pair is bonded for life. This
relationship is almost literally soul-to-soul that only another psionic could
truly appreciate. If one of the pair should be die, the other immediately knows
it and goes into a coma for a base 60 days, reduced by the remaining member's
Willpower against a target number of the other member's Willpowerx2. When the
survivor comes out of the coma, he/she has 1-6 new mental problems/disadvantages
like phobias and such and an overriding drive for vengence. The survivor will
hunt the killers(if death was not natural) until they are found and dead. Only
if the pair is broken up by a natural death will the survivor not go into a
rage. Base time to for the search is 100 days and is reduced by an Int(6) test.
After this time, the survivor will know who and where the killer(s) are and will
be able to track them easily until they are dead.
Only one catalyst creature can be bonded at a time.
Psionic Vampires:
A full 50% of all psionics and catalyst creatures are psionic vampires.
+ These psionics feed on the memories, emotions, mental attributes, and dreams
+ of
sentient beings. This is not necessarily evil, as a psionic could easily drain
nightmares or bigotry or painful memories. However, under normal circumstances,
the psionic vampire must consume normal foods as well; They will just die if
they don't get mental power too. However, if the psionic wishes, he/she can
drain twice as much mental energy as necessary to survive(or burn it off twice
as fast) and not eat any physical nutrients at all. Available energy is as
+ below:
Dreams(person has 6/night) 1 hour of life each
Emotions 2 days of life
Memories 3 days/memory
Mental Attribute(will/Int/Chr) 7 days/point drained
These losses are permanent. Dream loss will cause a lack of rested
feelings upon waking and extensive draining of a single target over multiple
nights will cause insanity. Emotions drained are permanent. If a psionic vamp
drains the anger of a person, he/she will NEVER again become angry. If this is
not done carefully, you could end up with a perfectly logical living machine
that is incapable of feeling _Anything_. Memories are gone too. This can leave
a hole and cause feelings of unease. Just like waking up after a hard night of
drinking and not knowing how you got where you are and what you did last night.
When a mental attribute is drained, it is gone permanently as well. This is not
raisable by Karma anymore, and an attribute totally gone means instant death.
This kind of feeding leaves a very distinctive mark on the aura of the
target. The psionic must be within 10 meters of the target to drain them. If
the psi vamp gets down to less than a week of life, he/she will get very anxious
and will find it difficult to concentrate(+2 TN on ALL tests) until power level
is higher. If the psionic gets below a day of life, he/she will go crazed for
1d6 hours, draining anything and everything they can get thier hands on,
sometimes to the point of death. This generally causes a bad situation...
Catalyst creature/psionic pairs NEVER drain each other.
Psi Death:
When a psionic dies, he or she can have all of their total power
released upon an area upon the instant of death, if they wish. This is called a
death scream and all psionics and catalysts have this ability. What it does is
KILL(no tests possible) everything within the psionic's Willpowerx2 meters,
causes massive damage of a (Willpowerx2)D physical wound to all within
Willpowerx20 meters, and a violent mind scream of (Willpowerx1.5)D stun to all
within Willpowerx1 kilometers. Depending on the exact set up of the mind scream
and the psionic's own powers, various secondary effects occur as well. For
example, a massive pryokinetic explosion might destroy the building at the same
time or a mass teleport could yank everything out of existance within the kill
radius. Work this one out with your GM. If the death scream occurs near other
psionics, and they die as well, chain reactions can occur, causing whole towns
or city blocks to go violently insane or dead. Really nasty. For massive Psi
deaths, add the willpowers together and then add +2 for each dying psionic above
one to determine the total force of the death scream.
Well, that's about all I have. Use it. Enjoy it.
Brian
Brian
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 14:20:11 -0500
Reply-To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: More Ammo!
In-Reply-To: (null)
On Wed, 14 Apr 1993, stefan hahn wrote:
> Flare rounds: some kind of bright & fast-burning mag-compund
> chemical ignited at firing, visible for miles, if used as a weapon would
> tend to set things on fire.
These exist in RL
> Incendiary rounds: spray your target with WP or Napalm-4, and he'd
> be hating life.
So do these
> Smoke or Gas rounds: More than enough space in a shell for a
> smokescreen for cover, or a little nerve toxin...
And these
> Liquid rounds: a plastic shell filled with DMSO/Hyper or whatever
> that shatters and splashes on impact.
Problem is that it might shatter on firing.
> Fletchette rounds: a shell filled w/ needles instead of pellets.
> etc.
These exists also
[> Robert Hayden ____ <] Black Holes result from God
[> \ /__ <] dividing the universe by zero.
[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ / <]
[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ <] # include std_disclaimer.h
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 13:20:58 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question on Initiate Masking
>>A PC want's to cast a quickened spell on a being, and then use
>>initiate masking to prevent the spell from being noticed until it is to late
Sorry Jason (gee, that's a great name),
It won't work. While it never sayes an initiate can or can't mask a
quickening, that's not the problem. The problems is that an initiate can only
mask _his_ aura and items on _his_ body.. Your PC whats to mask somebody else's
aura. It just can not be done.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 16:24:11 -0500
Reply-To: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania
Subject: Spell defense and others
Ok this is an artical on the pros and cons of various spell
defense and shielding arguments over damaging manipulations
1. the first argument is that spell defense does not help
against Dam Man because they have already been cast and the
target #4 is just to see how well the mage cast the spell
(pg 130 SRII top 2 column)
also they are resisted as a damage resistence test not spell
resistence - much like a ranged attack
(pg 131 SRII top 2 col)
2. the argument against this that I saw last night is under spells
and astral space.
manipulation spells travel the distance between the caster
and the target in both physical space and the astral!!
(srII pg 150 2 col 2nd full par)
so
1. only combat pool would help resist the damage
2. combat pool and spell defense would help resist the damge
(shielding does not have anything to agument so it
is still used but doesn't change the target #)
____________
Spell defense in the astral
The main point of this - is there spell defense in the astral
1 can you spell defense someone in the physical from the astral (shield too)
2 does spell defense help vs spells cast at you in the astral
a. yes because (pg 147 srII 1st col - resolving astral combat)
the magic pool may be aplied to spells cast in the astral
b. no because a spell in the astral that is cast at you is engaged
in combat. (p 148 2 col) it is fought like a barrier
ie. its force dice vs magic att -- it
and combat value vs force -- you
spell defense doesn't help but astral combat pool does.
(pg 147 all of that) shielding won't help since it
is spell defense
-----------
Masking
no just focuses - you can't hide a spell.
(i am not sure about a locked spell)
Please more people answer these - the more input the better.
Nightfox
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Waisley Lglumka@***.grove.iup.edu --------(-- IUP FENCING
SCA - Shire of Robledol, Households - Cryptic Demesne (fencing) + Brotherhood
of Agincourt (archery),
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry for any bad grammer or spelling, etc. My mind works at 637
thoughts per minute, and my hands at 1.2 letters per second
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 13:25:01 -0700
Reply-To: MATUSKEY@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Ed Matuskey <MATUSKEY@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: "I'm no slaver!" No, of course you're not.
As someone else has pointed out, your hypothesis is just that: your
hypothesis. You can't know that elementals can't come over on their own:
maybe they just don't want to. And they come into existence only when
summoned? Then what are all those things living on the metaplanes? At least
you came up with a plausible account for why elementals try to escape, and
continue to exist when their summoner dies. I used to think that spirts &
elementals were just extensions of the casters consciousness, but the more
I think about it, the more it seems to me that this can't be. There just
seems to be too much evidence in favor of them existing before they are
summoned, and possessing an intelligence of their own.
-Ed
-Highlander
In for the duration
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 13:39:08 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Could you clear this up, please?
Hi! I tried to send this out once, but I didn't seem to make it. If you have
alreadly got a copy then ignore this one.
Why thank you for those all so insightful comments Michael Hilliard (dripping
in sarcasm), now on a more serious note would you like to back your comments
up alittle? I can't even tell which of my suppositions your disputing. If my
logic is flawed (an my last post was not meant to be gospel, just theory) then
I would like to know where. And while your at it do you have any views on
either side of the debate?
Here's a little good logic:
All fish have fins and gills.
Sharks have fins and gills.
Therefore, sharks are fish!
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 13:15:59 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Could you clear this up a bit?
Why thank you for those all so insightful comments Michael Hilliard (dripping
in sarcasm), now on a more serious note would you like to back your comments
up alittle? I can't even tell which of my suppositions your disputing. If my
logic is flawed (an my last post was not meant to be gospel, just theory) then
I would like to know where. And while your at it do you have any views on
either side of the debate?
Here's a little good logic:
All fish have fins and gills.
Sharks have fins and gills.
Therefore, sharks are fish!
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 13:56:08 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: I'm really not a Slaver!
There's a problem with spirts like Elementals and Nature Spirits a) coming to
the "real world" by themselves and b) existing before they are summoned. The
problem is of course (dramatic drum roll) Free Spirits!
Sit down and look at the powers of Elementals, Nature Spirits, Allies, and Free
Spirits. If these guys all existed prior to summoning then why are they so weak
when compared to a Free Spirit? The answer is simple, something happened when
the spirit was summoned. Maybe they did exist before hand, but not as
"intelligent beings" but as mindless animals. Then when they are summoned, they
get a little bit of the summoner in themselves. Then when they go free this
gives them intelligence and extra power. That's why a spirit doen't have a True
Name until it goes free.
Actually I just contradicted myself. It is possible for spirits to exist before
they are conjured, but since all uncontrolled elementals, nature spirits, and
allies automatically become Free Spirits, it is impossible for them to come over
by themselves, as they would then be free spirits.
Thus I have saved Raven from life as a slaver. In fact she could very well be
doing her elementals a favor by bring them to the real world.
See ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 13:58:29 -0700
Reply-To: HUTH@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Steve Huth <HUTH@***.EDU>
Subject: Clip placement on the DL-9
As I'm neither an engineer nor a weapons expert I must admit that the
details of how the bullets are loaded into the chamber remains an open
question. I envision the clip placement as follows: First clip located
in the firing grip and spring-loaded up into the weapon; 2nd clip located
on the weapons right side (user's point of view) and angled slightly down
(if 0 degrees is straight up, and 90 degrees is straight out to the right,
then the second clip is at about a 60-70 degree angle). The angle was to
allow easier use for right handers (BTW, lefties may actually have some
annoying problems with this two-clip arrangement). Internally, I imagine
that a sensor of some sort would have to determine which clip was active
and place a bar of some sort on the other clip. One thing I failed to
mention in the original post is that you cannot burst fire or full
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 14:01:51 -0700
Reply-To: HUTH@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Steve Huth <HUTH@***.EDU>
Subject: Fraggin vax
Sorry about the abrupt ending to the DL-9 post, the vax machine here
hiccupped. Anyway, as I was saying:
...you cannot burst fire or use full-auto across a clip switch, because it
takes a half-second (or so) for the feed system to adjust.
I hope this comes through clear-my system is really screwing up my posts
right now.
See ya.
Spectre
Steve Huth
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 14:25:10 -0700
Reply-To: MATUSKEY@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Ed Matuskey <MATUSKEY@***.EDU>
Subject: Why are you so defensive? Could be be experiencing some deeply
seated guilt for your actions?
Not so fast, Jason: I'm not going to let Raven off the hook that easily.
Summoning elementals (oh, no! I'm starting to compartmentalize my answers!)
There is a reason it's called a binding ritual: you are not getting an
elementals willing cooperation, you are yanking him/her/it from its home
dimension, and forcing it into servitude. Of course you're going to strip
it of its greater abilities. A point Huth brought up to me: when you
summon an elemental, you're only getting a part of the spirit, and binding
it to you for services. The rest of it, the part that has the greater power,
is left behind on the metaplane from whence it originated. When an elemental
frees itself, it either returns to its home, or pulls the rest of itself
to our plane of existence, forming the powerful free spirit.
Allies
Allies are more powerful, because you've sacrificed some of yourself to
get more of it across. "Ally" is a misleading term: it still tries to
escape its master whenever the conjurer takes a deadly wound. Hardly the
actions of a true friend.
Sorry, Jason, you'll have to do better before Raven's conscience is clear.
-Ed
-Highlander
Ready to take on all comers
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 14:42:25 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Monorounds should be nastier!
Steve,
I like that you did a write up for monowire rounds, but personally I think you
made the damage to light and the monowire too short. I do agree with Legion on
the subject of legality. This would have to be military/police (personally I
don't think police should have these either) item.
The reason I think the damage is too light is a monowhip does 10S when it is
whiped around by someone with a measely strength of 1. The monorounds you
posted gained all of 2 points of power from being launched out of a gun. Now
I don't remember how much damage NAGRL gives for monowire, but I was thinking
around a 12D damage code.
I also think the wire was too short because the ones in Chromebook II, the
inspiration of this nasty little weapon, have lengths of 1 meter for the shotgun
round, 2m for 25mm gernade launcher (yes, rounds for a grenade launcher!), 2.5m
for a 30mm gernade launcher, and 3m for a 40m gernade launcher.
Now this is some seriously nasty stuff. You can shot down entire groups of
people with the gernade laucnher rounds.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 14:49:03 -0700
Reply-To: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Jeremy Roberson <ROBERSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Ares assault rifle a la Huth
Steve, since you stole the concept from GURPS, you may as well use the
description of the gun they give. Folks, for thos of you who care, here's
what the Ares whatever-it-was rifle, submitted by Huth, is supposed to
look like.
First of all, it's a bullpup-configured weapon, placing the magazine
behind the trigger mechanism. The magazine at equal but opposite angles
branching down and out. I'll try to sketch as best I can with ASCII
[]-------body of gun
/ \-------magazines
This is as if you were looking straight down the barrel of the gun.
The magazines rest over you forearm, flanking either side.
Additional note on Bullpup: I've never really played a weaponsfreak
in Shadowrun, but there aren't very many bullpup-configured weapons, are there?
Many people in real life (especially the designers at Heckler & Koch) think
they'll be the wave of the future. Because more of the barrel is resting over
the arm instead of hanging out past the grip, they have the barrel length
of rifles but the recoil characteristics of submachineguns. A referee could
justify a built in 1 point recoil comp, but the weapon would still be more
concealable than an M22A2, since it is more streamlined.
J Roberson
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 17:16:30 -0500
Reply-To: Dave Sherohman <esper@*****.IMA.UMN.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Dave Sherohman <esper@*****.IMA.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Bad logic
>up alittle? I can't even tell which of my suppositions your disputing. If my
>logic is flawed (an my last post was not meant to be gospel, just theory) then
>I would like to know where. And while your at it do you have any views on
>
>Here's a little good logic:
> All fish have fins and gills.
> Sharks have fins and gills.
> Therefore, sharks are fish!
Sorry, Nightstalker, but that logic is as bad as the 'proof' that sharks are
trout, it just happens to true.
This is actual good logic:
All things with fins and gills are fish.
Sharks have fins and gills.
Therefore, sharks are fish!
Your supposedly good logic is (logically speaking) equivalent to the bad logic
you attempted to refute. You just changed a word such that a logically flawed
argument produced a true conclusion.
Bad logic:
All X have Y.
Z has Y.
Therefore, Z is X.
This may be true or false, depending on the values of X, Y, and Z.
Good logic:
All X have Y.
Z is an X.
Therefore, Z has Y.
This may also be true of false, but if the first two lines are true, then line
3 _must_ be true. As was demonstrated with the "sharks are trout" example, the
"bad logic" form can have true statements in lines 1 and 2, but produce a
false conclusion on line 3.
For the sake of topicality, I really don't think it matters whether spirits are
slaves or not; people have their own opinions, will act accordingly, and will
probably not be convinced that the other view is correct. It's basically a
religious/political position.
esper@***.umn.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 15:40:22 -0700
Reply-To: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Jeremy Roberson <ROBERSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Logic
Fascinating, Captain. . .
Having taken a logic course myself, it's interesting to read the
recent posts trying to use logic to justify positions on rules
conventions. But I think both sides are digressing to the point
where the original argument is now largely forgotten. There's
a point to blasting an opponents position by destroying the base
foundation, but if you fire at the dirt it is built upon
you'll only stir up more dirt.
J Roberson
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 16:02:44 -0700
Reply-To: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Jeremy Roberson <ROBERSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Psionics
I know I normall complain about long posts that quote others extensively
but this is an exception. Forgive Me:
Psionics
>> C: Magic(Human Psionic)
>> D: Magic(Metahuman Psionic)
These seem pretty cheap to me. How about bumping them up to B and C
respectively?
>> Psi Points= (Willpower)+(Intelligence)+(Charisma/2) for an average of
>>around 10-13 points that are spent on abilities.
Why are you using Charisma? It seems that with the minimum attributes
you set, a minimum of 10 points is quite sufficient to grant a good
level of beginning power.
>> Astral Projection: this is simple astral projection, but with a change.
>>The maximum amount of time that the psionic can stay in Astral Space is
>>Essence+Willpower in hours instead of just Essence hours. Astral attributes
>>don't change at all from normal.
>> Point Cost: 3(grants Astral Perception too)
How about this:Projection does not grant the ability to assense without
going fully astral. The ability to assense without actually going all the way
could cost seperately. As it is now, the cost to go completely astral is a
meager 1 point-It should cost more than mere assensing.
>> Aural Masking: this is the ability of the psionic to mask his/her aura
>>at an effective Willpower "Initiate" level. This is the base, and any
Psionic
>>initiations after add their level to this base. This makes the psionic well
>>hidden to any normal mage and to most but the most powerful initiates.
>> Point cost: 4
First of all, I would call it Aura masking. Aural Masking sounds like
silence. Secondly, why let them mask themselves before becoming Initiates?
Mages can wait, so can Psionics. Finally, do they need to mask? Magic and
assensing and so forth may pick up magical energy rated by a being; do they
also pick up the psionic energy, especially since psionics and magery are
mutually exclusive? This last bit isn't a position, but rather a question any
GM will have to ask before using Psionics in a game.
>> Mind Over Body: the psionic gets several advantages from this ability.
>>They get a -1Box on all stun damage at all times. When it is actively
>>performed,this ability gets (1.5xWillpower) dice to resist stun damage instead
>>of the base Willpower. It has no drain.
>> Point cost: 1
"When it is actively performed. . ." Hmmm. Since it has no drain, is
there any reason no to do it? Assign an action type to it : Simple or Complex.
Or drop the free box and let them roll Willpower instead of Body to resist
stun damage.
Well, I have a long way to go in your post and don't want to burden
everyone else with a coplete iteration. I like the idea, especially
since you included Psionic Vampires (I also own GURPS Psionics)
But the above comments are comments only. Any one else care enough
to send the very best?
J Roberson
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 18:14:45 -0500
Reply-To: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Hiding quickenings
_A_ Jason said:
>>A PC want's to cast a quickened spell on a being, and then use
>>initiate masking to prevent the spell from being noticed until it is to late
Our regular Jason (half the calories!:) replied
]The problems is that an initiate can only
]mask _his_ aura and items on _his_ body..
Rev says:
to the original poster... are you talking about masking, or merely hiding the
quickening link? The latter is possible, unlike the former (as Nightstalker
has pointed out).
Rev
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 20:29:42 -0400
Reply-To: Brian Angliss <angliss@******.PSU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Brian Angliss <angliss@******.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Psionics
I figure I'll answer these as they come in.
In response to J Roberson:
I guess that the Priorities could very easily be bumped up to B/C respectively.
Originally I designed the system for a group that was very short on magic in a
heavily magical campaign, so I wanted a way to make even the worst sam capable
of psionics, so I did it this way.
I put Charisma in for the express purpose of including all the "mental" attribs.
Take it out if you think it is a little weird, which it just may be...
Astral Projection: For this, just drop off the "(Grants astral perception too)"
Makes the sucker much more expensive, dontcha think?
You're right. Aura Masking makes more sense. But the reason I made it
available to non-Initiates is that a psionic has a slightly different aura than
even a cyber/bioware dude or a magician. I always kinda figured that psionics
had always been around(at least they have in my game), so I needed a way for
them to hide their actual auras, and this ability sprang to mind. So yes, a
psionic has a different aura than anyone else if unmasked. And the powers of a
psionic radiate VERY much differently in the Astral Plane than Magic does.
Spells and such are actual entities on the Astral plane. Psionics is just the
channeling of the Astral raw energies and forming them with the Willpower to
suit the needs of the psionic. So an unmasked permanent psionic ability might
look like a whirlpool or a black holein Astral Space, centered on a person, the
psionic. Active abilities always show the true nature of the person, much like
a "mundane" looking person in Astral suddenly coming Astral to do Astral combat.
I see I should have looked at the Mind over Body more. How about adding their
Willpower to their Body to resist Stun Damage and killing off the extra box.
While I haven't really looked hard at this problem yet, this seems to make it
easier. And make it an Unconscious skill that operates all the time.
As always, these are just ideas that various problems bring up. I would really
like to hear more of this stuff, so fire away.
Brian
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 20:22:39 CDT
Reply-To: bellovar@***.WISC.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Christopher Bellovary <bellovar@***.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Thermonuclear Psionics System.
Here is the start of my review over the posted psionic notes. In
my opinion, if the generation codes were A/B instead of C/D they might
_still_ be too strong. I doubt Brian and I would ever see eye to eye on
this one. Personally, I think that if you are running a party low on magic,
perhaps you should just tone down the magic in the world. Of course,
sometimes it is just fun to play gods among men, but that should never be
presented as a standard set-up. In this world, why would one _want_ to be
a mage? Just run a psi. They are at least as effectiveon their own, plus
they leave you with higher stats, skills, and more money, and you can still
get your bioware and cyberware.
I do not intend to slam Brian's game, but as rules for a standard
(more or less) Shadowrun campaign? I must take exception. My comments
are listed below. Read them or ignore them as you wish.
Chris Bellovary
-- CrossFire --
> Psionics in ShadowRun(II)
Is anyone aware that FASA calls magic a psionic phenomena?
> A psionics is a human or metahuman who has the ability to perform
> various unusual skills or has strange abilities not readily categorized as
magic
> and not duplicable by technology(not yet, anyway). They are actually mental
> adepts, people who train their fantastic willpower to be able to alter the
very
> fabric of space and Astral by sheer force of will. Psionics are very rare and
> it is unlikely that any true psionic will voluntarily reveal him/herself to be
> such, as psionics are hunted and feared by everyone for being mutants. Many
> psionics have severely unbalanced minds and are potentially dangerous. But
> others, who were lucky enough to have avoided extreme mental trauma, are
> relatively normal.
>
> Psionics Priorities and requirements:
>
> C: Magic(Human Psionic)
> D: Magic(Metahuman Psionic)
>
> In addition to the priority levels above, the psionic MUST have a
> Willpower of 6 and an Intelligence minimum of 4. Anyone can be a psionic, but
> you must declare your desire to be one before making the character. Psionic
> ability is independent of your Essence so you can be a Street Samurai with an
> Essence of .1 and be a Psionic.
Ok - wait a minute here adding stuff to your body, or sticking a
computer in your brain doesn't do anything? Whatever became of the concept
of `mushuin', body-mind integration?
> Psi points:
> These are points that you get to "expend" in purchasing various psi
> abilities. Most of the powers are based off your willpower.
> Psi Points= (Willpower)+(Intelligence)+(Charisma/2) for an average of
> around 10-13 points that are spent on abilities.
Only if you want a sam with neat tricks, if you make a psi-bruiser, we
have something else entirely. (see in a few lines)
> Special advantages of Psionics:
> Besides the abilities of a psionic, he or she can raise their
willpower
> rating 2 points above Racial Maximim, or up to a 6 for Trolls. Psionics get a
> special kind of focus called "Catalyst Creatures," but there is more on
them
> later.
So we have elves able to start with a unaugmented 18 points to spend?
22 if they buy an encephalon and cerebral booster? Before using Karma to exceed
level maximums? Hmmm... those 6 points that Physical adepts (which require B
and
C, rather than C and D by the way in generation) seem might lame now, and they
are supposed to be stronger due to the harder restrictions?
> Psionic Ablilities and Psi Point cost:
> Astral Perception: this is your run of the mill astral perception
that
> any full magician can do easily.
> Point cost: 2
Hmmm... like the Physical Adept - who starts with far less points to spend and
cannot add bioware or cyberware without losing magic rating... Overbalance
here?
> Astral Projection: this is simple astral projection, but with a
change.
> The maximum amount of time that the psionic can stay in Astral Space is
> Essence+Willpower in hours instead of just Essence hours. Astral attributes
> don't change at all from normal.
> Point Cost: 3(grants Astral Perception too)
I hope you still mean IQ = astral quickness and stuff, as retaining physical
attributes would be quite silly in the astral plane. Furthermore, if these
guys are so much weaker than mages, why can they stay longer on the astral
plane, the place where all magic comes from? On the contrary, I could think of
many reasons to bar them from the Astral plane
And for but one more point, one can not only percieve, but project?
Seems to me that second step would be harder than the first.
> Mind Over Body: the psionic gets several advantages from this
ability.
> They get a -1Box on all stun damage at all times. When it is actively
> performed, this ability gets (1.5xWillpower) dice to resist stun damage
instead
> of the base Willpower. It has no drain.
> Point cost: 1
OK - I won't repeat anyone else's comments here. However - this is supposed
to be the same thing PhysAdepts use - mind over body - and they get pain
resistance. Why not use the same thing? Put a trauma damper on this guy,
how can you stun him?
> Mind Shield: the psionic gets an effective armor of his/her Willpower
> against all mental attacks, Psi or Magical, when raised. However, the maximum
> time that it can remain raised is (Willpower)minutes and the drain every
minute
> for holding it is (Willpower)M.
> Point Cost: 1
A minute is a long time in SR combat... How long until they can re-raise it?
Why is the drain harder when you have greater willpower? Time dependent makes
sense, willpower does not.
> Immunity to Pathogens: this grants the psionic his/her Willpower in
> "armor" to resist all pathogens, unless they are specifically designed to
attack
> psioncs and psi energy. It is unconscious, meaning it works all the time.
> Point cost: 4
> Immunity to Toxins: this is just like Immunity to Pathogens, but also
> works against toxins specifically designed to degrade/enhance psi. However,
> there are toxins that may or may not be affected(see GM).
> Point cost: 5
Neat trick! for just 9 psi points (remember, our unaugmented base elf had 18 to
use, we exceed the benefits of the toxin extractor and the pathogenic defense
without spending a cent, or adding to either the body index or reducing the
essence. So is this compatible with the toxin extractor and pathogenic defence?
Why make a Vatboy? Just make a Psiboy and give him bioware later!
> Body Control: this ability allows the psionic to unconsciously resist
> all environmental extremes, like fire/heat, ice/cold, acid, etc. This acts
like
> armor(willpower rating) against these types of attacks.
> Point cost: 3
Acid? ACID? I'm sorry, but as a chemist, I kinda have a problem with this one.
If you wish me to explain - I will elaborate....
> Illusion: this is the ability of the psionic to make a limited area,
> full sensory illusion. Maximum area of effect is (Willx5)m radius and the
> maximum time of maintainence is (Will)minutes. Drain is (Area affected)S per
> minute.
> Point cost: 1
hmmm... 8 will unaugmented they can get? OK, we now have a 40 meter radius!
That is over 260 feet in diameter, extending up as well! All this, for a
mere one psi-point cost. Even just covering doors would make it worth one!
> Jolt: the psionic has the ability to do electrical stun damage to the
> tune of (Will)S stun on touch. No drain.
> Point cost: 2
No drain? I realize it is much the same as shock gloves, but no drain seems
unrealistic.
> Lightining: the psionic can do (Will)S physical and (Will+2)D stun
for
> each charge emitted. Range is sight. Any metal(like a knife or a gun)
causes a
> +2 TN to resist damage due to burning effects. It may also ignite flammable
> materials on the target, like grenades and clothing. Drain is (Will)S.
> Point cost: 5(includes jolt ability)
So for effectively three psi-points (2 for jolt) you can jolt a man dead
hmmm... even 5 psi points is only about the same as 2 magic points for a
PhysAdept, and PhysAdepts require a greater sacrifice to be!
> Surge: this is the ability to damage electrical devices with power
> spikes. Damage is (Will+Init. Grade) 'barrier' to the electronics of the
device
> only. This is somewhat nebulous, so use the GM's judgement. Drain is
(Will)L.
> Point cost: 3
What would this do to deckers in the matrix?
> Confuse: with this the psionic can jumble the electrical currents in
a
> brain, adding (Will+Init. Grade) to ALL target numbers. If this exceeds the
> target's (Will+Int+Chr/2) in total attributes, the confusion becomes permanent
> until Karma is spent to reduce it at 1 Good Karma per +1 TN modifier. It
costs
> no drain, but must be maintained.
> Point cost: 3
Hmm, +8 for our base elf. How do you maintain it if it is permanent? How do
they
resist? Do you at least need to touch them?
> CyberPsi: this grants the psionic the ability to
access/scramble/read/
> control all electrical devices that he/she touches. Concentration must be
> maintained at a +1 TN, and a drain of(Will)S per 10 seconds(minimum of 1 test
> per use). This does include cyberdecks.
> Point cost: 5
No comment
> Sensory Expansion: this is a full sensory expansion, including the
psi
> equilivant of Amplified hearing, Damped hearing, Optical Magnification 1,
> Olfactory Booster, Low-Light sight, Thermographic vision, High and Low
Frequency
> hearing, and a Select sound filter at a rating of (Willpower). It is all
> unconscious and has no drain.
> Point cost: 4
No essence loss, no money spent. Why start out as a sam?
> Point cost: 3
> Seeker Sense: while concentrating, this skill lets the psionic track
an
> object or person. Max range is Willx10km, accuracy is to +/- 5 meters, but if
> the target leaves this maximum range, the tracking is broken. The
person/object
> to be tracked must be seen to initiate tracking. It has no drain.
> Point cost: 4
hmm.. base elf.. 80 km range, just under 50 miles, does it require continous
concentration since they were last seen?
> Combat Sense: this allows the psionic to add his/her willpower to
> his/her combat pool at all times. No drain.
> Point cost: 5
WHAT! so our base elf can add 8 dice to his combat pool? 8 dice? heck, he
probably only had 6 in there to begin with! Yes - definately no reason to be
a straight samurai - at all!
******************************************************************************
OK - I have stuff to do. This is enough for now. Sorry if this came across
as a flame. Such truly was not my intention. However, I realize the fact that
I take exception to these rules shows a bit, and for that, I will apologize in
advance. In any case - that was the beginning of my observations. Perhaps we
can still hammer out a workable set of rulings from this.
Chris Bellovary
-- CrossFire --
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 21:32:48 -0400
Reply-To: Brian Angliss <angliss@******.PSU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Brian Angliss <angliss@******.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Psionics agian...
I have just seen a nice post on my system, but as I was using a modem at the
time, I was unable to read it fully. I'll try to respond to all new comments
tomorrow. But just keep in mind that this is totally up to what you as GMs and
players want to do with it. As far as it goes, its a system that seems to work
for me. But if something, even after we hammer out these final rules and stuff,
doesn't feel right, then change it. After all, that's why I posted it.
Brian
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 20:36:29 -0500
Reply-To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: ADMIN: ShadowTalk Edited Log Change
About a month ago, ShadowTalk went from a monthly to a weekly archive.
This is because the 800k-1MB files were getting just too big for normal
humans to deal with effectively.
Thus, I am also making this change in the mailings of the edited logs.
Sooner or later (maybe towards the end of this weekend) I'll get the frist
two weeks of April edited up and mailed out.
For those of you who want to get these edited logs, you must contact me to
get added to the distribution.
If you are on the distribution, you must contact me to get your name removed.
Thanks for your time.
[> Robert Hayden ____ <] Black Holes result from God
[> \ /__ <] dividing the universe by zero.
[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ / <]
[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ <] # include std_disclaimer.h
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 18:50:49 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Thanks Ed, I needed the help!
Your not going to win that easily Ed,
The binding ritual refers to the linking of the mage and the elemental. It
doesn't have to mean coercion. How is it that a mage can summon the elemental
from where ever it is during down time to himself with a one action? Because
the two have been bound together. That's also why a mage can only have a
limited number of bound elementals at once. You can only link yourself to so
many spirits, just like how magicians can only be linked to so many foci at
once.
Now Free Elemental pulling themselves all the way to the material plane is
pure speculation on your part. Remember that the True Name is gained at the
point of release. If this was not true than the mage would already know the
elementals True Name, because he would have to use it to enslave the Free
Spirit. Plus this doesn't explain why Allies and Nature spirits are so much
weaker than Free Spirits.
Ally is not a misnomer either. When the magician first gets the ally, they
are strangers to on another. But after being together for a while, and if the
magician treats the ally well and improves on its abilities, then the spirit
is not required to attempt to escape. In fact it might sacrifice its own force
to save its master/friend. In fact depending on how close the ally and master
are, the ally might go free and stay with him!
And another point. Isn't it awfully convient that Elementals have abilties
that are a perfect match to a hermetic mages needs? Makes you think the mage
made the elemental with is own needs in mind doesn't it? But that would mean
they didn't exist before they were conjured!
Gee, Ed, my conscious is even clearer now than when I made my last post.
Also, I find it ironic that you take relief in being a decker, the most
notorious thieves, robbers, and generally all-round troublemakers the world has
ever known, while we discuss the possibility that mages just might be slavers.
I think I will claim the moral high ground for now.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 21:04:02 -0500
Reply-To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: A Copyright Proposal (all ShadowTalk people please read)
Ok, I'm about to make a proposal on how to possible settle the shadowtalk
copyright debate. I'm posting to shadowrun simply to keep the traffic on
'Talk focused.
Comments are desired.
---------------------------------------
EFFECTIVE DATE: May 1, 1993 (ShadowTalk LOG9305A)
From this time forward, all materials to ShadowTalk become property of the
public domain. ShadowTalk can be used as a creative resource without its
users expecting any form of compensation. Any use of ShadowTalk as a source
requires that credit be given to ShadowTalk as a single entity.
Exception: Character names are the property of the individual creators.
Use of character names without permission constitutes an infringement.
----------------------------
What this means (in English):
This means I could write a story about the MONICA affair and the only
requirement is that I include some mention of shadowtalk (actually, the
MONICA affair falls BEFORE this takes effect so something else would ahve to
be worked out). I could base the characters in my story in the characters
from the MONICA affair, but I could NOT use their names without the
permission of the original creator. This means I could technically have a
dragon named Bubba without any hassles, but NOT one named Tirandor.
-------------------------------
Now, there are two stages for discussion on this topic.
1) Is the above acceptable? If not, why. (offer an alternative).
2) Should the above be retro-active? Yes? No? Why? (either way).
I'll wait a day or so before I put up my opinions on everything.
**
I appreciate your time and effort.
[> Robert Hayden ____ <] Black Holes result from God
[> \ /__ <] dividing the universe by zero.
[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ / <]
[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ <] # include std_disclaimer.h
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 22:25:23 -0500
Reply-To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: about the copywrite proposal in shadowtalk (fwd)
I am forwarding this for public viewing as I feel it belongs there.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 23:20 EDT
From: peace and love---finian <FMCGAFFEY%ALBION.bitnet@******.CUNY.EDU>
To: hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
Subject: about the copywrite proposal in shadowtalk
1st question--- got no problem with it. run with your idea.
2nd question--- I would prefer retroactive if for no other reason than that
it would keep things neat and be a heel of a lot less work
than making deals with all the poeple who posted prior
hope this gets to you (I'm still getting the hang of e-mail)
peace and love
--- Finian McGaffey
Sha'lom
--- Brightlight
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 22:27:11 -0500
Reply-To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: A Copyright Proposal (all ShadowTalk people please read) (fwd)
Here's another one.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 20:22:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: ROBERSON@***.EDU
To: hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
Subject: RE: A Copyright Proposal (all ShadowTalk people please read)
1-Yes, it is perfectly acceptable to me. You may want to find out how well it'llhold up in
court, however.
2:Retroactive-Again, fine with me, if you can do it. I hear ShadowTalk has only been
on-line since about August '92-that's not too big a period of time
to grandfather it. If it had been around much longer, then I would question
the authority to do so.
J Roberson
-----
As a followup: ShadowTalk came online November 2, 1992
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 22:51:31 -0500
Reply-To: TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Rob Rubin <TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: NERPS!
I was running through a backlog of mail, and I noted that Sandman asked about
Nerps. "What is Nerps?" the question read. I'll add my .02 sents...
Last time I was in Chicago, I ran into a few friends. They had (at the time)
gotten in with the folks at FASA as playtesters. So, I asked them the same
question. "What is Nerps?"
If you are lost, NERPS makes appearances in many sourcebooks. Examples can be
found (No books with me, I'm wingin this...) in NAGRL (Top line, in the border,
near the end of the book), in NAGNorth America(It's in there...), in ShadowBeat
(Look in the 'TV shows' area), and lots of other places.
So, my friends called a big-wig at FASA to find out. (Mind you, he called at about 11:45
at night.) I was listening in, and the conversation went something
like this (I forget the names used, forgive me...)
(After hello pleasantries) "I have a question for ya." <-- friend
"Ok, shoot." <-- FASA person
"I got a guy here that wants to know what 'NERPS' stands for."
(Laughter, and I mean roaring laughter. I heard the phone drop.) Through his
own laughter he said "We don't know!"
He eventually fessed up that it actually stood for "Nothing Ever Really Pleases
Steve" (or was it Scott?) It was an inside joke that migrated into the books.
Sorry to be a spoiler, but it was asked...
-Tyger
(Aggrivated? NERPS for AMMUNITION!)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 22:06:06 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Copyright: Cool with me.
You get a Hearty Yes from my corner. It's basically what I wanted anyway.
As for it being retro-active, I think we should make it so, as this would be
the easiest way to handle it.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 02:02:21 -0500
Reply-To: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Is Summoning Supportive of Spirit Slavery? Our lines are open...
Meine Kamaraden:
Oh, no... Multiculturalism has extended to Elementals and Spirits.
All we need is just one more lunatic group indignantly railing out against
injustice, crying, "Free the oppressed (insert cause here)"
Before I begin... I would like to lodge a vehement protest regarding this
issue. I observed several race to the defense of Shaman, but precious few
put forth anything for the Hermetic tradition. Statements were made alleging
Shaman's requesting the Spirit's presence and assistance, and it was implied
that Mages force service from Elementals. True, Elementals are "bound",
to use the system's terminology, but to invoke that is to use semantics as a
basis for argument, which has often proven to be a shaky precedent indeed.
Further, permit me to dispel a misconception regarding Elemental verses
Spirit summoning. BOTH are cases involving Charisma tests. Hermetics DO NOT
utilize their Willpower to coerce or otherwise bend the Elemental in question
to the whims of their desire.
Now, as to whe'er Elementals and Spirits are, in fact, slaves.
No. The point being overlooked is, I believe, that Elementals, and Spirits,
are not being tied to a lifetime of servitude. They, upon being brought to the
Physical Plane, agree to perform a finite (and usually small) number of tasks
for the Magician. Also, Elementals are hardly waiting on the Magician hand and
foot.
As described in ShadowRun II, pg. 140
"An elemental that owes services to a mage is considered bound to that
mage, but the mage need not use all the elementals services at one time. At
the time of the summoning, the elemental is bound and effectively placed on
notice to respond to calls from the mage. The elemental then departs, through
astral space, for parts unknown. There it remains until called to serve."
Possibly at beck and call, but it has not quite adopted a servile lifestyle.
And how many cultures can one enumerate upon that a slave or serf had merely to
submit to a limited number of commands. Further, in cases where the mage deems
it necessary to keep the Elemental within his presence for a time exceeding 24
hours, that is considered to be expending one service. Therefore, in instances
where a Mage insists that the Elemental remain within his sight shall soon
discover he spent all of his Elemental's tasks.
Defining such an existence as slavery is both inappropriate and erroneous. If
anything, a good metaphor would be a vacation, as put forth by Ethan Court.
The Elemental is offered the opportunity to trek to the Physical Plane, an
undertaking which it would not be able to perform alone. The mere fact that a
Conjuring Test may result in no Elemental being summoned may indicate no one is
willing to come at that time.
Quid Pro Quo: The trip's "Sponsor" requires that he be recompensed for his
efforts, and as such, the Elemental shall agree to fulfill certain endeavors
assigned by the Sponsor.
Alternatively, were one to compare it to "fishing" for Elementals, i.e., that
one captures one--therefore, no complacency on the spirit's part is indicated--
the postulation that these are somehow weakened, or "stripped", Free Spirits is
spurious. One may exercise no influence over a Free Spirit in absence of the
knowledge of its True Name. Therefore, one must conclude that the Conjuring
test either results in the calling forth of "normal" Elementals from the Great
Beyond or actually generating them.
Further, even if it is a mundane Elemental "plucked" from some unknown location
or plane, and this applies even were one to believe in willing responses to
summoning: The tasks are usually few in number, the Elemental is free to roam
and explore to its content until its presence is requested. True, in some
cases, the Magician may insist the Elemental remain at his side; however, in
such instances, the period of service shall be rather abbreviated indeed.
After the performance of the last work for the Magician, the Elemental is once
again liberated, and accordingly return to its place of origin.
In the case of Elemental fabrication, I rather conjecture that in return for
spontaneous generation, a limited number of tasks to perform does not qualify
as an unreasonable request.
These are not slaves...they qualify not even as serfs.
And as to the Shamans asking for Spirit's presence, as Max Headroom so
insightfully observed, "Asking is only polite demanding." Be not so zealous to
judge Hermetics.
Also to Herr Highlander: Personal indignation expressed following an
accusation should not necessarily be taken as indicative of secretly harbored
guilt. Such sentiments of offense taken in regards to a potentially insulting
assertion can be quite genuine in some instances.
Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc, PhD.
Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark Thought Publications
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
<<<
[ Doctor Doom : jch8169@********.tamu.edu ]
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 17:08:43 +1000
Reply-To: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: A Copyright Proposal
Your proposal seems unfair to people who are considering
using the shadowtalk forum for trying out ideas that they're
planning to use in a separate copyrightable work. It would
scare me off, for instance. Snappy one-liners, witticisms,
examples of extreme cool, should all be `owned' by the person
who came up with them - not just character names.
In certainly should not be retro-active. That smacks of
deception, to me.
I suspect (from the overflow I saw of the MONICA affair) that
several people may be considering writing it up and attempting
to get it published. I assume, in that case, that the publisher(s)
involved would choose the best `version'.
I guess what I'm suggesting, is that shared stories could be left
`up for grabs' (between the participants, naturally) - with anyone
writing such stuff up for publication, having to re-write the
bits `belonging' to other people (like names, witticisms, etc.
that I mentioned above).
And if anyone wanted to include a copyright notice in something
that was entirely their own work, then that clarification should
be accepted as such.
luke
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 08:57:00 EDT
Reply-To: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Subject: shadowtk publishing
in brief, here's my two nuyen:
edit the logs to clean up accidental spelling and formatting. assume that
punctuation and some spelling will be on purpose. take out anyone you want
to.
if it's published on a pay-per-word basis then don't worry about the money,
but DO list each author who has a character presented (or list it as "THE GANG
ON THE LIST" and provide the publisher with a complete list of said authors).
this allows for authorship, and gets everyone published.
if it's published on a royalties basis, then you need to "acquire" the rights
to use that character (which should be done anyway, but at a certain point it
becomes irrelevant (example pay-per-word)). some ways of doing this include
1) asking permission to use for no fee, 2) offering a flat fee to purchase
the rights, 3) offering a piece of the purse.
on this forum i believe that the "public-domain" policy is correct. by all
means, electronic mail is "public-domain" no matter how private you intend
it to be. someone out there may have a better understanding of the current
laws governing privacy of electronic mail, but the last time i checked the
level of protection (legal or otherwise) was so small as to be ignored.
imho, honesty is the best policy. ask permission to use a character or
storyline and make arrangements as necessary (even if it means losing the
story). admittedly real life doesn't work that way, but let's prove that
we are better than "they" are.
patric
progers@******.bitnet
p.s.: for what it's worth, i grant the right to use any and all of my characters
presented on shadowtalk.
Sanctuary BBS, 517/6292002, 24 hrs, 9600/N81, Gaming and Computer Networks
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 11:12:31 EDT
Reply-To: Dark Elf <VESPOSIT@****.SUNYSB.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Dark Elf <VESPOSIT@****.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject: Coopyrighting Shadowtk
While I personally would prefer to receive credit for things I wrote, It is
unreasonable to implement. Rob Hayden's proposal seems to be the most
reasonable compromise. While public domain may disappoint some people, it is
really the only fair way to do this.
As for being retro-active, I'd say yes. I don't really
see how it could be otherwise, since we all refer to previous material constant
ly, and our current threads have grown out of older ones in one way or another.
If you ask me, making the copyright non-retroactive would be like copyrighting
the last chapter of a book, but not the first 10!
Yes for public domain, yes for retroaction
Dark Elf
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 11:28:38 EDT
Reply-To: Dark Elf <VESPOSIT@****.SUNYSB.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Dark Elf <VESPOSIT@****.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject: Copyright Agrument
One thing that I think should occur, regardless of what copyright schema is
decided upon, is that some degree of "Nettiquette" should be observed.
Simple polite agreements can solve potential problems before they occur.
It is only polite to ask if you wish to use something that someone put a large
amount of work into, such as a character or a major plotline, and it is only
polite to accept such a proposal.
One other thing, it would also be a good idea to give blanket credit to
the list in anything published, that way everyone gets some credit without havi
ng to sort through the 100+ names on the list to figure out who wrote what.
DE
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 12:04:05 -0400
Reply-To: CRAIGTW1@******.JUNIATA.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <CRAIGTW1@******.JUNIATA.EDU>
Subject: Copyright proposal
My views on the copyright proposal:
I like the idea of a public domain, but only for characters
that are NOT copyrighted. I realize most of the characters on ShadowTK are
probably copyrighted. I just wanted to tell you that all the characters that
I and Rin Parks run ARE copyrighted, AND are slated to be written into several
books that Rin is in the process of writing. Also, I would add that _MOST_
likely NO ONE on ShadowTK could do justice to THE Nexus, Q. S. Slicke,
Mercurian, and the others that Rin runs...whereas all of the people on
ShadowTK will probably be able to do my characters(Buzz, Shadow, Bloodtooth,
and [everybody's favorite Ninja to pick on] Dragon) a lot of justice!
I would add that I DO _NOT_ know Rin's opinion on this proposal.
It is up to the rest of the list to decide whether or not the
public domain should be retroactive, as Rin and myself joined the list AFTER
the MONICA affair.
Forgive me for any bad grammar...I am only a Chemistry Major,
Thomas W. Craig
aka Tom Craig
craigtw1@******.juniata.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 10:16:27 -0700
Reply-To: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Jeremy Roberson <ROBERSON@***.EDU>
Subject: NAGEE questions
I'm sure I've posted something about this before, but I didn't get any response
at all so I'm doing it again. I have now printed out all 4 NAGEEs and came up
with a few questions. The most pressing one is:
Why does the Dwarven Mage Hunter have Magic-2 (this is Shadowrun v 1.0
we're talking about) when he has no magical abilities or powers whatsoever?
I realize not everyone on this list has NAGEE and won't neccessarily know what
I'm talking about, but those of you who do, please opine freely.
J Roberson
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 13:09:32 -0400
Reply-To: Chris Siebenmann <cks@********.UTCS.TORONTO.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Chris Siebenmann <cks@********.UTCS.TORONTO.EDU>
Subject: copyrights and shadowtk and publishing
This is getting silly.
Since the US signed the Berne copyright convention, all material is
'born copyrighted' and must be explicitly placed in the public domain
*by its author* (including by means of contracts or other agreements).
What this means for distribution mechanisms like mailing lists or Usenet
news is unclear; if you really care, consult a lawyer.
The ECPA (Electronic Communication Privacy Act) has little or nothing
to do with copyrights; it's concerned with the interception of ecomms,
particularly by law enforcement people.
I encourage people to wander this discussion off to an applicable
Usenet newsgroup, where lots of people with both information and
opinions on the matter will chime in.
- cks
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 10:52:57 -0700
Reply-To: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Jeremy Roberson <ROBERSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Copyrights
I concur with cks in that while the copyright discussion is all well and good
and there is great interest in it from potential story-tellers logged on, there
are so few people with facts but full of their opinions on how it *should*
work that any decisions we come to may have little or no bearing in court,
should it come to that (and I rather doubt it will). Perhaps some "envoys"
composed of people who have time and access to other boards where the issue
is more clearly defined and discussed could collect facts about the subject
and return before we start hammering about how much of what is copyrighted by
whom.
J Roberson
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 10:58:29 -0700
Reply-To: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Jeremy Roberson <ROBERSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Copyrights II
The whole issue comes down to this:
1) People don't want their characters used without credit
2) People who initiate stories, even when those same stories get
embellished by others on the board, want credit for starting it.
3) Some people are field-testing possible ideas and stories on the board
I would say do not worry about it until you have a working script/manuscript
andare ready to sned it off but are still willing to rework it to accomodate
those
involved. At that point it becomes a personal issue. Like I believe Hayden
said at the beginning, don't screw your friends-that includes people on this
board. At this point, even though several dozen people are "working" on
something, I don't think it's an issue yet.
J Roberson
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 14:15:00 EDT
Reply-To: hmangold@*******.AC.RUNET.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Hal Mangold <hmangold@*******.AC.RUNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Drugs!
Hmmm. I read through the drug listings and most of them are pretty good,
but I have a few problems with a couple of the plants. Its seems that a
few suspisiously resemble potions from a certain fantasy game. I have
enough problems with wounds having any significance without introducing
healing potions. Does anybody else sometimes get the feeling that their
mage has some suspisiously cleric-like characteristics? :)
On the up side I thoughht that the hallucinogens worked pretty
well. Historically, magicians have had a long and friendly relationship
with hallucinogens (i.e. peyote) and I think the rules reflect that pretty
well.
Castigir
hmangold@*******.ac.runet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 14:25:21 EDT
Reply-To: hmangold@*******.AC.RUNET.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Hal Mangold <hmangold@*******.AC.RUNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Psionics
While I admire the initiative of the guy who did the psionics
conversion, I have to admit that I think that a rather simple issue is
being made needlessly complex. It seems to me that "psionics" can be
defined quite easily as people with an unconcious connection to astral
space/phenomena. In addition to physical adepts, there could be people
with other adept abilities. This also might make a case for not everybody
having a 6 magic (but thats a whole other can of worms).
One of thecharacters in _Streets of Blood_ had a limited form of
precognition that he manipulated through tarot cards. It didnt tell him how
to win at cards or anything, but he had some insights into what might be
coming up. Hmmmmmmmm...maybe I can whip up some stats for this type of
thang. Hee Hee.... more later.
Castagir
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 14:29:49 EDT
Reply-To: hmangold@*******.AC.RUNET.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Hal Mangold <hmangold@*******.AC.RUNET.EDU>
Subject: Spelling
Sorry for my spelling, it was atrocious.
ttttttttttttt hh hh ww ww ww aa ppppppp
tt hh hh ww ww ww aaaa p p
tt hh hh ww w w ww a a p p
tt hhhhhhhhhhhh ww w w ww aaaaaaaa pppppp
tt hh hh ww w w ww a a pp
tt hh hh ww ww a a pp
to me...
Castagir
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 14:51:39 -0500
Reply-To: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania
Subject: Copyright
What matters to me the most is the character not the adventure.
You say people would be able to use my characters if they changed the
name - I say no, because they are still using the character. The most important
part about a character is the character not the name.
ie. Nightfox would still be who he was even if I renamed him Travelan or
something. What makes a character is not the name but rather the concept.
Anybody can make a mage. Anyone can make a mysterious mage. But a drow mage
(yes this is rather original for shadowrun, only two people I know) who
doesn't understand his power totally but is quickly becoming an extremeley power
mage, who also owns a power/weapon focus on extreme power and who is over
5000 years old but has only been really there for 16 years while his body is
20 tends to rather unique. There will also be a few more twist by tonight
that will add more to the character.
CRUSH - Yes anyone could make a Dumb loveable troll - infact dumb lovable
but large a strong characters are rather prevelent in stories. Of course
this isn't CRUSH'es concept. It much different but since pratically no one
knows his whole concept I do not have to worry.
Lister - I stole the name. It is from a show called Red Dwarf which I named
Project Red Dwarf from. I also told people in the begining where I got the
names.
What I am trying to say is that it is the name that is important - it is the
character. From example I do not beleive Ed. Matusky could claim copyright
On the name "Highlander", it was a movie for peet-sake. He could claim
rights to the concept though.
so for 1 it is no
for 2
well if my proposal comes fact (character concept) then yes
but if just charcter name then I say no from the fact of people
who drop off the list to keep their characters (it probably won't
happen) would still not be able to keep their characters.
secondly - would the people who wrote the book then have claim on
the character concept now because they wrote it to a book?
So in conclusion - The more distinctive a character is the less right others
would have to use it.
I tend to agree with Tom and Rin on this.
Nightfox
remember character concepts
change over time, its called
growth.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 15:02:55 -0400
Reply-To: Brian Angliss <angliss@******.PSU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Brian Angliss <angliss@******.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Response on Psionics to C. Bellovary-Take a look, all.
Here it is.
Ok, here we go.
In response to Chris Bellovary's comments. I hope you printed them out, because
I don't have them listed down here.
A little more background. This system was originally designed for a group that
had a little problem in a bar once. The group had a Sam, an Owl Shaman(it was
night), and a rigger with them, as well as a physad. Their opponents were a sam,
a mage, and a merc. All four of the "good guys" ended up in the hospital from
a manaball. The hospital stay was extended due to several of the group needing
limbs replaced. As their opponents were outnumbered slightly, and outgunned, I
determined that something was needed to shore up the group, so I came up with
this idea. This was admittedly SRI, but I did the work under SRII. I do play
down magic very often, but it doesn't seem to help my players very much.
As for running a magician, there are very distinct advantages. A psi can never
summon or banish a spirit. Their abilities very often have higher drain codes
than their spell counterparts. They can't use foci, except a living being, to
raise their ability at all. The magician can cast a huge variety of spells
while a psi will have massive restrictions.
Also, I run in my world that psis are hunted and feared and hated by the entire
world in general. There are psis who believe that all non-psis are inhuman
animals who are no better than slaves, and this does include magicians of all
types. There are human/metahuman groups that are devoted to the destruction of
all psis forever and that actively hunt and kill them off. The government still
has a virtual monopoly on psionics that the megacorps have yet to break, and
both the government and the corps hunt down and kidnap psis for their own
purposes, and both kill any psi that turns them down. Finally, I run a world
where there are technological means of utilizing psionic energy, amplifying it
or stopping it, sometimes permanently. There is no way to do this with magic
short of cybering the poor sucker beyond belief so that they can't use magic at
all. So I keep the psi of my group on his toes by forcing him to realize that
everything he does is watched, gathered, and transmitted accross the globe for
various reasons. So, in conclusion, in the world I run, psionics is kept to a
minimum by a fear of discovery that even the least pleasant magician never has
to deal with, even if that magician is an ugly troll rat shaman.
As for a standard SR game, I must admit that I run a very high powered,
+ excessive lethality type game where the world is rotten to the core and
+ sometimes the only way to stay alive is to kill everything that gets in your
+ way, althought this tends to kill off any decent rep your group has. So for
+ my game, this system works fine, so far.
Essence loss and Psionics: while I still think that you can be a psionic with
an essence of .1, here is an idea to make this a little harder. As the
+ character's essence gets lower, it gets harder and harder to initiate and get
+ more points to get more abilities. Now the base initiation cost is 3x next
+ Grade...so how about for every point of essence you have lost, this goes up
+ by +1. Example: Sci, a grade 2 initiate with 3.1 essence would normally
+ need only
9 more karma points to initiate, but as he has lost (6-3.1=2.9, rounded up)
three essence points, his multiplier goes up to 6 and he now needs 18 karma.
This should help a little. Also, if the person gets below 1 essence point, he/
she doesn't lose what he/she already has in the range of psionics, but can
NEVER advance further. As far as bioware goes, it costs no essence so doesn't
do this to the psi.
Bioware and Cyberware affecting Psionics: Cyberware shouldn't affect your
psionic ability at all. You're adding something artificial to your brain to
improve it beyond what it would normally be capable of. But an argument can be
made to allow bioware. I don't think that a psi should be able to go out and
get a simple cerebral booster implanted and all of a sudden, they have 1 or 2
extra points to put in psionics. If you want to allow this, then you should
force the points to come in one at a time as the psi initiates, so they get 2
psi points at their next initiation instead of just one. But this extra psi
point does not mean an extra grade of initiation, so you can't initiate one
grade and suddenly have teleport ability.
Elves with 18 points to spend: Don't think so. The absolute maximum would be
16. While I said that a psi could raise his/her willpower 2 points above racial
maximum, this did not mean that they could do so at the beginning of the game,
in character generation. The absolute highest rating for an unaugmented human
is 6, and this remains true for an elf, but with racial modifiers of +2 Chr and
+1 quickness. So the psi's maximum willpower(indeed required willpower) is 6.
The only variation on this comes with trolls and orks, as their racial maximums
are lower. Correspongingly, they should have the lowest number of psis of all
races, and for the same reason, dwarves should be psis the most often.
Physad and psi Astral Perception/Projection: I'll cover both here. I have said
that this was designed to grant semi-magical powers to relatively normal people,
so don't think that the point cost for Astral Perception is a problem. I can
see how the point cost for Astral Projection is a problem, but I thought that I
had covered that yesterday. And yes, Astral Quickness and other astral attribs.
remain the same for psis as for any magician.
Mind Over Body: The idea of Pain Resistance was a good one. I would say either
the psi's Willpower in pain resistance if just stun wounds, or 1/2 Willpower
in boxes if it covers both physical and stun. Of course, either way I have to
raise point cost to, oh, 4 or 5. Oh well.
Mind Shield: The reason I have the drain based off willpower here still is that
the higher the psi's willpower, the more powerful the spell. It's just like a
bullet barrier spell at force 2 is a lot easier to resist than one at force 4.
Same idea here, so the drain is based off the psi's willpower.
Immunity to _Blank_: Ok, I see your point. So cut it down by half. Make it
Willpower/2 in "armor" against Toxins or Pathogens while not downgrading the
actual point cost. Seems to make it more fair.
Body Control: I see your point about acid. The more I thought about it, the
less true to form it seemed, so YANK OUT THAT THERE "ACID." But cold and heat
still fit.
Illusion: so 1 point is a little low, and Willpowerx5 meters is a little large.
Make the point cost 3 and the range (Willx2)meters radius. Seems to fix it
pretty well.
Jolt: I suppose you're right: Make the drain (Will)L. Much more and the psi
might as well go for Lightning instead, and just ignore Jolt altogether.
Lightning: I think that J Roberson suggested B/C instead of C/D like I set it
up. This is beginning to make more sense as I read the posts coming in.
Surge: If the decker was in the matrix node that got surged, he/she could
expect to get dumped. Period. If the surged device was the deck itself, the
decker could expect to take stun damage from the surge unless he/she had surge
suppressors built inbetween the access ports and the brain.
Confuse: I'm sorry for the confusion(no pun intended) over this one. I figure
that a full minute of Confuse contact would make this permanent. As it is fair
to assume that no runner worth his/her weight in cred would let the sucker do
this for a full minute, this seems like a fair time span. As for range, I think
that within the psi's Willpower in meters would make it sensable and not limit
this ability excessively. Also, this only works on a single target, not a whole
area of effect.
Cyber Psi: while you had no comments on this one, I think I should clarify
anyway. This does not allow sensory access to the matrix. It allows the psi
to read the optical/magnetic storage of a device, to turn electronics off and
on, to scramble data irretreivably, etc. but not to sense link into the virtual
world of the matrix.
Sensory Expansion: this was meant to be really nasty and to overbalance senses
in favor of a psi with this ability. So this was intentional.
Seeker sense: Sorry, I wasn't clear(again). Continuous concentration is
required. This still causes a +2 TN modifier to ALL tests. Good luck.
Combat sense: Using an elf of 6 quickness and 6 int and 6 willpower, this would
give a 15 combat pool. Ouch. So shrink it down somewhat. Make it willpower/2
and that should fix the problem.
Finally, I think that I should clear up a few questions that I know will arise
in regard to my two teleportation abilities. Exo/Endo Trans allows you to put
large rocks into a target's head, exploding it with a displacement, killing the
target instantly. The heart could be teleported out of a target's chest and
into your hand and they die watching thier heart still beat. This is a VERY
powerful ability and should be used with care. If it is used in this manner, I
suggest that you allow the target to resist with combat pool to dodge and get
out of the way(suddenly a rock appears in the air where your head was an instant
before!). As far a combat teleport goes, it's really not as powerful as it
sounds. You could be teleported straight back 4 meters, reappearing just in
time for the high explosive missile you had just avoided to hit you square in
the chest. Or you could be in melee combat near the edge of a building,
+ teleport youself 10 meters...into the air, 20 stories above the alley below.
+ Or
you could accidently teleport half into one of your group members, killing him/
her instantly. Or... You see why it really isn't all that good.
Well, keep them coming.
Brian
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 15:07:12 -0400
Reply-To: Brian Angliss <angliss@******.PSU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Brian Angliss <angliss@******.PSU.EDU>
Subject: My many posts...
I'm currently quite surprised that the only post I put out that has since been
heavily critized was my last Psionics post. Where are the screams about voodoo,
or new disadvantages, or problems with Martial arts? Wow. No response(sarcasm)
yet...
Brian
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 13:44:02 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: My many posts...
Some comments on Brian's Psionics, Martial Arts, and Voodoo:
Why make Psionics?:
>>A little more background. This system was originally designed for a group
>>that had a little problem in a bar once. The group had a Sam, an Owl Shaman
>>(it was night), and a rigger with them, as well as a physad. Their opponents
>>were a sam, a mage, and a merc. All four of the "good guys" ended up in
the
>>hospital from a manaball. The hospital stay was extended due to several of
>>the group needing limbs replaced. As their opponents were outnumbered
>>slightly, and outgunned, I determined that something was needed to shore up
>>the group, so I came up with this idea. This was admittedly SRI, but I did
>>the work under SRII. I do play down magic very often, but it doesn't seem
>>to help my players very much.
A classic case of characters getting their asses (excuse my french) kicked by
a mage with a nasty area effect spell. The problem probably was the characters
had really bad willpowers, and the enemy mage was psycho. I say the mage was
psycho because I don't even want to ask how many innocent bystanders were killed
by that manaball. In fact I wonder why it didn't hit his teammates (or even
self), bars aren't that big!
I would have to say this is a pretty feeble reason to create a whole new set
of rules. If the characters sucked that badily, increase their abilities or
have the players make a better team of characters. If the opposition was the
problem, then lower them to a more suitable level.
Hunted and Feared:
>>Also, I run in my world that psis are hunted and feared and hated by the
>>entire world in general. There are psis who believe that all non-psis are
>>inhuman animals who are no better than slaves, and this does include
>>magicians of all types. There are human/metahuman groups that are devoted
>>to the destruction of all psis forever and that actively hunt and kill them
>>off. The government still has a virtual monopoly on psionics that the
>>megacorps have yet to break, and both the government and the corps hunt down
>>and kidnap psis for their own purposes, and both kill any psi that turns them
>>down. Finally, I run a world where there are technological means of
>>utilizing psionic energy, amplifying it or stopping it, sometimes
>>permanently. There is no way to do this with magic short of cybering the
>>poor sucker beyond belief so that they can't use magic at all. So I keep the
>>psi of my group on his toes by forcing him to realize that everything he does
>>is watched, gathered, and transmitted accross the globe for various reasons.
>>So, in conclusion, in the world I run, psionics is kept to a minimum by a
>>fear of discovery that even the least pleasant magician never has to deal
>>with, even if that magician is an ugly troll rat shaman.
Now Brain, I don't mean to insult you or your campaign, but I don't buy this.
A world that accepts magicians and Metahumans yet hates, hunts, and kills
psionicist. It just plain impossible. Hatred is not that selective. A person
is going to be a hell of alot more afraid of a big hulking Troll than a
psionicist they can't even notice. All the mental powers psionicist have can be
done with magic, so people would fear magicians as much if not more than
psionicist. The only rational for such a world is game balance, and I though
you were trying to fix that problem not create it over again.
Psionics and Essence lost:
Psionics is the power of the mind. The mind is in the brain. The nervous
system an extension of the brain. Alter the nervous system and you alter the
brain and the mind. Alter your mind and you alter your psionics. Therefore
Essence lost (messing with the nervous system) would have to mess up your
psionics. Besides you don't get anything for free in Shadowrun.
Now this is not meant to be a flame, but I'm highly suspect to your reasoning
for these abilities. I also feel that they are much to powerful for the
priority ratings you gave. A psionicist who got all the right powers would kick
the pants of a physical adept who paid a higher priority rating for his powers.
Also, I think there should be less points given to a character, even if you just
reduce the cost of the powers a proportionate level. The numbers are just huge,
for Shadowrun anyway.
As for your Martial Arts and Voodoo, they were both extremely over powered.
Martial Arts gave obnoxious abilities and costed just as obnoxious amounts of
Karma. Voodoo was soo much stronger than either Shamanism or Hermetic magic
that it would be unbalancing. After looking thru them both once I deleted them
as not useful.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 17:09:47 EDT
Reply-To: SKEPTIC Discussion Group <SKEPTIC@*******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
Comments: Resent-From: BB566C@*****
Comments: Originally-From: j_cneves <j_cneves@*****.INESCN.PT>
From: Alex Rosenheim <BB566C@*****.BITNET>
Subject: .
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Delivery-date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 11:22:47 UTC
Originator: guerin@******.curi.u-picardie.fr
Send-date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 10:35:20 UTC+0100
From: guerin <guerin@******.curi.u-picardie.fr>
Message-ID: <199304140939.AA12955@******.curi.u-picardie.fr>
WITH LOVE ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE
This paper has been sent to you for good luck. The original is in New England.
It has been sent around the world nine times at least. The luck has been now
sent to you. You will receive good luck within four days of receiving this
letter provided you in turn send it on.
This is no joke. You will receive good luck in the mail. Send no money. Send
copies to people you think need good luck. Don't send money as fate has no
price. DO NOT KEEP THIS LETTER. It must leave your hands within 96 hours.
An officer in the Royal Air Force received $ 47,000,000 and lost it because he
broke the chain.
While in the Philippines, Gene Welch lost his wife six days after he received
this letter. He had failed to circulate the letter, however before her death
he received $ 7,775,000,00.
Please send twenty copies and see what happens in four days. The chain comes
from Venezuela and was written by Saint Anthony Group, a missionary in South
Africa. Since the copy must tour the world you must make twenty copies and
send them to friends and associates. After a few days you will get a suprise,
this is true, even if you're not superstitious.
Note the following: Constantine Diaz received the chain in 1953 and he asked
his secretary to make twenty copies and send the letter out. A few days later
he won a lottery for two million dollars. Carlo Dadditt, an office employee,
received the letter and forgot it had to leave his hands within 96 hours.
He lost his job. Later finding the letter again, he mailed twenty copies.
A few days later he got a better job. Delan Fairchild recived the letter, and
not believing , he threw the letter away. Nine days later he died. In 1968
the letter, received by a young woman in California, was barely legible. She
promised herself she would re-type and circulate the letter, but she put
it aside to do later. She was plagued with various problems including expensi-
ve auto repairs. The letter had not left within 96 hours. She finally typed
the letter as promised and got a new car.
Remember: DO NOT SEND MONEY, DO NOT IGNORE THIS.
Remember Me Always, It works!
S & JUDE.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 18:51:55 -0500
Reply-To: TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Rob Rubin <TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re : My Many posts
Umm, Vodoo was just done by White Wolf. The (apparent) jury is still
deliberating.
"Someday my prints will come..." Some unknown Media...
-Tyger
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 20:27:43 CDT
Reply-To: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Subject: Chain Letters
I don't know about everyone else but I think chain letters are a pain in the
ass. I get enough paper junk mail as it is, I don't think we really need
electronic junk mail. Anybody else have a slant on this? Netiquette?
Signed,
He who lets off steam, feels much better.
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
| Chad Mawson *-* History Major, Nebraska Weseleyan University *-* |
| Internet e-mail: csm2747@******.nebrwesleyan.edu Lincoln, Nebraska |
| |
|-> 12. A sucking chest wound is Nature's way of telling you to slow down. <- |
| - from Murphy's Laws of Combat |
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 20:50:35 -0500
Reply-To: TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Rob Rubin <TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Chain E-Mail
Well, a bit on the tacky side, but I sent a copy to a friend. So I'm covered
either way... You never know...
-Tyger
(I'm hoping that I win the 10 mil on the Publishers Clearinghouse!!!)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 21:58:02 -0500
Reply-To: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania
Subject: Chain mail.
Actually I sent it back to the sender - both copies.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Waisley Lglumka@***.grove.iup.edu --------(-- IUP FENCING
SCA - Shire of Robledol, Households - Cryptic Demesne (fencing) + Brotherhood
of Agincourt (archery),
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry for any bad grammer or spelling, etc. My mind works at 637
thoughts per minute, and my hands at 1.2 letters per second
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 21:23:29 -0500
Reply-To: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Chain ('em up and let em die) Letters
According to Internet policy, the person can lose his/her account FOR LIFE
for sending chain letters. It is HIGHLY illegal to do this. We've covered stuff
like this on other mailing lists. It usually involved having everyone send a
copy back to the original sender. I hesitate to do so because this would lower
us to this person's letter.
My $.02 worth. Please, let's not continue this thread. We ALL have better
things to do with our time.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 22:20:57 -0500
Reply-To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: That 'friggin' chain letter
I've sent a message to the postmaster at the poster's site informing him
of the posters actions and requestion appropriate action.
We'll see.
I hate dealing with this kind of crap.
[> Robert Hayden ____ <] Black Holes result from God
[> \ /__ <] dividing the universe by zero.
[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ / <]
[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ <] # include std_disclaimer.h
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 23:56:32 -0400
Reply-To: Brian Angliss <angliss@******.PSU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Brian Angliss <angliss@******.PSU.EDU>
Subject: My voodoo was different
I posted a version of Voodoo that was based on Chill mostly, and incorporated
several aspects of WW's voodoo as well. That's what I meant. Sorry if I was
confusing anyone.
Brian
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 23:57:46 -0400
Reply-To: "Like, dude, where's the firefight?"
<MURRAYMD@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Like, dude, where's the firefight?"
<MURRAYMD@******.BITNET>
Subject: Who sent that damn chain letter?
Hoi Kiddies!
I was going to send my twenty copies of that %^&* #@$% chain letter
back at the jerk that sent it but I lost the address. It was something
like skeptic@******* something or another. If someone could send me the
address (not the entire letter, thank you) of the sender I could send my 20
copies back at them.
I encourage you to send 20 copies to the sender also. That should
teach them.
*************************************************************************
* What should I do today? | Matt Murray at the University of Dayton *
*1) Carpet Bomb the Vatican? | MURRAYMD@******.BITNET *
*2) Club a baby seal? | MURRAYMD@******.OCA.UDAYTON.EDU *
*3) Have a beer? Beer! | "Like, dude, where's the firefight?" *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Star Fleet Battles Battletech Shadowrun Space Marine AD&D *
*************************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 01:44:09 -0500
Reply-To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Chain Letter
DO NOT mail bomb the sender of the chain letter.
I have informed the senders sysadmin and the problem should be rectified.
[> Robert Hayden ____ <] Black Holes result from God
[> \ /__ <] dividing the universe by zero.
[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ / <]
[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ <] # include std_disclaimer.h
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 01:43:07 -0500
Reply-To: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Die Verdammte Brief
Good Morning, Jim...
You mission, should you choose to accept it, is to flood the vile instigator of
this foul excuse of a piece of correspondence (the existence of which would be
possessive of almost infinitely more utility were it occupying a compose pile,
the moronic perpetrator who so foolishly posted it to OUR list, as well as
anyone else disovered to have the slightest scrap of responsibility of this
VERDAMMTE letter.
Your targets are these people:
From: SMTP%"SKEPTIC%YORKVM1.bitnet@*****.nic.SURFnet.nl"
Comments: Resent-From: BB566C@*****
Comments: Originally-From: j_cneves <j_cneves@*****.INESCN.PT>
From: Alex Rosenheim <BB566C%GWUVM.bitnet@*****.nic.SURFnet.nl>
Originator: guerin@******.curi.u-picardie.fr
As usual, should any of your I.M.Force be caught or killed, the Fearless Leader
will disavow any knowledge of your actions. Good luck, Jim.
This message shall self-destruct in 5 seconds.
*sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*
*BANG!*
Doctor Doom
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 01:54:21 -0500
Reply-To: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: A Magical Proposition....rasfoylip
Meine Kamaraden:
A local Game Master (and good friend of mine) who does not,
incidentally, participate in the discourse on this list approached me with a
request as to modification of the ShadowRun Magic System.
(Ahhh...hearken unto the groans from the audience!)
Part of her motivation was due to the feeling that Initiates should
receive far more tangible benefits--true, the become privy to the powers of
Metamagic, but this is rather removed from day-to-day spellcasting, with the
possible exception of Centering--although its effects are rather indirect for
my taste.
Another motivation of this is that the Magic Attribute, or as expressed
in ShadowRun II, the Magic Rating, has precious little bearing on everyday
spellcasting. She is of the opinion (a sentiment which I share, incidentally),
that Magic is, or rather should be, composed of a three-tiered system:
Aptitude: The Sorcery Skill
Experience: The Magic Attribute, raised via Initiation
Power Level: The Force of the spell
All three should be important to the role and implementation of magic in the
System. And this is the assumption from which I shall be drawing conclusions
in this proposal.
SHADOWRUN I:
Magic Pool: Sorcery Skill
Casting-- Magic Pool + Force of Spell
Resist: Force of Spell
Not bad...really. Force & Sorcery aptitude are both important, due to their
presence in the process of casting the spell. Magic Attribute plays an
pivotal role: Astral Pool. Considering that Initiation does not yet exist,
a limited role such as this does not seem unfair.
GRIMOIRE I:
Magic Pool: Sorcery Skill
Casting-- Magic Pool + Sorcery Skill
Resist: Sorcery Skill of caster...
From the prospect of striving for a three-tiered system, this is obviously
flawed, as it completely discounts the Force of the spell being cast
(permitting Force 1 Firebolts to burn with a vengeance). Moreover, the Magic
Attribute has been almost completely divorced from the system, save for the
earlier determinates of radius of area of effect and Physical Drain threshold.
However, now there is Initiation, the ability to raise the Magic Attribute, and
yet, it plays NO substantial role--considering how much it cost to Initiate,
and the supposed natural potency of Vampires, it SHOULD be more important.
GRIMOIRE II:
Magic Pool: Sorcery Skill
Casting-- Magic Pool + Force of Spell
Resist: Force of Spell
Sounds familiar, eh? The force of the spell has been re-integrated into the
system, after a long absence. However, NOW the Magic Attribute determines
precious few things: Radius of spells and maximum spell force cast without
physical drain... and how many dice of one's Magic Pool may be brought to bear
into spell casting. Experience and aptitude only count as far as the Sorcery
skill is considered.
THE PROPOSAL...
Magic Pool: Magic Attribute
Casting-- Sorcery Skill (for casting only) + Magic Pool (for drain or casting)
Resist: Force
This way, all three tiers in the system are salient. Initiates will have an
easier time making spells hurt, as they simply possess more dice.
In this way, EXPERIENCE COUNTS both ways... Adroitness with the skill of
Sorcery is obviously a great boon. In addition, the new Magic Pool gives the
magician the edge that such experienced and INITIATED magic-users should have.
Further, the innate magical capabilities of Vampires are facilitated using
this.
Force has not lost its importance. With the Force still being part of the
resistance test, the magnitude of thaumaturgical force which is brought to bear
is conveyed. An experienced Mage casting a Force 1 fireball, unless he has a
box full of dice, shall witness his targets shrugging the spell off without
issue. Therefore, a Magician shall still be inclined towards throwing Force 6
spells, if for no other reason than he wishes his targets to have a difficult
time rolling them down.
RATIONALE
Casting is, in my opinion, a test to determine with what degree of ability did
one successfully manipulate the thaumaturgical forces. Obviously, Sorcery
skill belongs there. The resistance test determines how well the target's body
can withstand the magnitude of the damaging metaphysical energies that are
being channeled into his aura. Force is the best definition for this.
Following this idea, it still shall behoove a Magician to cast high-force
spells, to assure that his target will experience at least some difficulty in
resisting the damage.
Now, as to Magic Attribute. If the level of Magic determines one's level of
affinity with the Astral Plane--whe'er it is the level of the relationship to
one's Totem, or the degree to which one is attuned and knowledgeable as to the
nature and laws of Magic. This explanation also extends to the peculiar
instance of Vampires, as due to their increased Essence, or Life Force (putting
aside the rather questionable circumstances under which it was acquired) they
possess an innately greater proximity to the Magical Realm.
In the case of all magic users, it stands to reason that this affinity, this
familiarity can be employed in the process of the wielding spells, and hence
it is logical that it occupies a place in the Casting spell test. Also, being
attuned to the _nature_ of preternatural energies, it is not unreasonable to
argue that one may receive insight as to methods by which one may utilize the
metaphysical forces while lessening the impact upon the corporeal form. The
closer one is, the greater ability one has to wield it without harm. This
translates into the ability to use the Magic Pool to reduce drain.
Why am I inclined towards this system? Initiates receive a more tangible edge
in the day-to-day of magic for all their efforts. Also, neither Sorcery or
Force has been discounted, as happened in Grimoire I.
Now, as to disclaimers:
If you are content with the present system, FINE. My desire is to formulate an
equitable alternative for those who question the small role Magic Rating
occupies in the system. My purpose is not to have members extolling the
virtues of the present system and vilify me for impinging upon its pristine
beauty...etc, etc.
I have not railed out against the present system, calling for reform and
revision. I approached this problem as a theoretician would, that upon
encountering a problem, proposed a solution, which is then put to the tests
that it must be logical, rational, as well as both feasible and equitable in
its role in the system. Note that I am not floccinaucinihilipilificating the
present system--In truth, I am actually rather fond of the apparatus as
presented in Grimoire II; what I put forth here is only intended as a viable
alternative.
Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc, PhD.
Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark Thought Publications
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
<<<
[ Doctor Doom : jch8169@********.tamu.edu ]
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 08:54:26 +0100
Reply-To: Gerlof.Woudstra@***.PZ.WAU.NL
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Gerlof A. Woudstra" <Gerlof.Woudstra@***.PZ.WAU.NL>
Subject: Shadowrun archetypes
***** ATTACHMENT: C:\THUS\NETDOS *****
Well, here are two archetypes that I have developed since I started playing
Shadowrun some years ago. They have been published in our local fanzine
called fantazine. Others in our gaming group also developed some nice
archetypes like:
The former Joyboy, the Repo man, Artificial Person (grown in a vat and
escaped from the lab, worth lots of nuyen), Corporate Courier, Street
Scientist, Mixgen(Humanimal) {You liked those sunday morning cartoons
with animals posing as humans? Well in seatle 2050 they still do!}, Corp Kid
slummer, etcetera.
If you'll like this post enough, I am willing to ask the creators of these
archetypes to put them also on the net.
These archetypes were created with the first edition if that makes any
significant difference at all
The Frustrated Street Cop
When I signed up with Lonestar, I thought I could make a difference.
Helping people and putting criminals behind bars you know? What a crap, all
I did was beating up poor suckers in riot controls. And when I finally
arrested scum, they were back on the street even before I could finish my
paperwork. But what really made me mad was the influence of the other
corps. We could not touch them high suits. One time I arrested one, a real
piece of slime he was. He resisted, so I gave him some punches to make him
more docile. The next day, an hot shot lawyer gave me the biggest lawsuit I
ever saw. Only decent thing to do was to quit. But they ain't seen nothing
yet. They're not rid of me yet. This time, no corp lawyer can protect them.
The ex-policeman is ready for some action. In his time, he saw more then
enough misery and he likes to do something about it. When given sufficient
nuyen he is more then happy to crack some nuts. Especially when these nuts
have ties with the corps. He ain't no streetsamurai or mercenary but with his
experience, skills and contacts he is worth your money twice. The ex-
Lonestar cop has bumped his head so much that he became more then a little
cynical.
Roleplaying notes:
The ex-cop still has some souvenirs from the time he walked the streets. He
also knows a lot of useful people, streetpeople as well as corpers and off
course some valuable friends still in the force. He can choose four contacts
instead of the usual two. He is known to react quickly and with authority. If
he doesn't watch out, he still behaves like the cop he used to be. Which
sometimes is not a good way to make friends. On the other hand, he is as
stubborn as a mule and he will not take a 'no' for an answer.
Attributes: Skills:
Body - 5 Armed Combat - 4
Quickness - 4 Car - 4
Strength - 5 Etiquette-Corp - 3
Charisma - 3 -Law - 3
Intelligence - 4 -Street - 5
Willpower - 3 Firearms - 5
Reaction - 5 Interrogation - 3
Essence - 5.05 Negotiation - 4
Unarmed Combat - 5
Spec.Skill-Police procedures (4)
Cyberware:
Retinal Modification Low Light.
Internal Radio
Gear:
Browning Max Power
- 100 rounds ammo, 16 Gelrounds, 8 He-rounds
Defiance T250 Shotgun
- 50 rounds, 20 Stunrounds
Stun Baton
Armour Vest (Lonestar Logo)
Restraints: 2 Metal, 4 Plastic
Membershipcard Police-club
License for Heavy Pistol
Doc Wagon contract Basic
Contacts (4 instead of 2)
Bartender City official
Detective Gangmember
Gangboss Metahuman right committee
Human Policlub member Squatter
Streetcop Lonestar secretary
Snitch Reporter
Troll bouncer Other street type
****
I know this archetype has been on the net before, but I didn't like it. The
rigger wasn't from the street, to much hardware. This one really is. Every
part of the equipment is bought, stolen or scavenged by herself. In my
humble opinion this is a much better street rigger, much more satisfying to
roleplay.
Street Rigger
"What do you mean, me not being a professional. I am as good as they
come. I may not have the experience of an old-timer. I am more flexible and
I now the streets better then the palm of my hand. Besides I learn fast, giving
time I will become the hottest rigger in town, mark my words chummer".
The street rigger has outgrown the gangs, she wants more action then the
little jobs (like stealing cars). With her saved money she bought some
cyberware. Now she is ready for the real world of the Shadowrunners.
Young and rash as she is, she may look inexperienced, but she survived for
years on the streets and is much tougher then you expect her to be. She may
not have the professionalism and the big toys from the great riggers, her
streetknowledge makes her a real asset to a party. She can do more then just
some fancy driving.
Attributes: Skills:
Body - 3 Bike - 6
Quickness - 4 Car - 5
Strength - 3 Computer - 3
Charisma - 3 Electronics - 4
Intelligence - 4 Etiquette Street - 4
Willpower - 3 Firearms - 4
Reaction - 4 Ground Vehicle B/R - 5
Essence - 3.3 Gunnery - 2
Stealth - 3
Unarmed Combat - 4
Cyberware:
Cybereyes (low light + Flare Compensater)
Datajack
Hand razors retractable
Vehicle Control Rig level 1
Gear:
Scarlet Aurora Ghostrider;
old rigged Pick-up with high performance engine + turbo (2), performance
tires, roll bars and custom paintjob.
Roomsweeper + 50 ammo
Vehicle Tool kit
Simsense player with a dozen chips
Bug scanner (4)
Real Leather jacket
Flash Pack
The whole of Seatle to steal cars from
Contacts: The street rigger may choose 3
Any Street Types Bouncer Corp Rigger
Fixer Mechanic
Street rigger may (if she wishes) belong to a go-gang.
G.Woudstra
The Netherlands
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 02:23:05 -0500
Reply-To: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Ya know, I'm starting to LIKE these archetypes...
>Street Rigger
Looks decent.
>Cyberware:
>Vehicle Control Rig level 1
Needs a higher level, IMHO *grin*
>Gear: ...
>Roomsweeper + 50 ammo
Ya know, I REALLY like this person. But have you ever thought of using stun
rounds instead *evil grin* *duck*
>Bug scanner (4)
Also, the average rigger would probably make this look like something else...
a spider, mayhaps? =)
The Reverend
(with an umbrella... after all, it's raining! *groan*)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 02:35:48 -0500
Reply-To: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: REVEREND.DIE.DIE.DIE.DIE.DIE.DIE
Gott in Himmel!!!
Reverend, thou shalt feel the sting of the cybercarp!!!
>>Gear: ...
>>Roomsweeper + 50 ammo
>Ya know, I REALLY like this person. But have you ever thought of using stun
>rounds instead *evil grin* *duck*
TTTTTTTTTT HH HH WW WW AA PPPPPPP || ||
TT HH HH WW WW AAAA PP PP || ||
TT HH HH WW WW AA AA PP PP || ||
TT HHHHHHHH WW WW WW AA AA PPPPPPP || ||
TT HH HH WW WW WW AAAAAAAA PP || ||
TT HH HH WWWWWWWW AA AA PP
TT HH HH WW WW AA AA PP .. ..
>>Bug scanner (4)
>Also, the average rigger would probably make this look like something else...
>a spider, mayhaps? =)
>The Reverend
>(with an umbrella... after all, it's raining! *groan*)
TTTTTTTTTT HH HH WW WW AA PPPPPPP || ||
TT HH HH WW WW AAAA PP PP || ||
TT HH HH WW WW AA AA PP PP || ||
TT HHHHHHHH WW WW WW AA AA PPPPPPP || ||
TT HH HH WW WW WW AAAAAAAA PP || ||
TT HH HH WWWWWWWW AA AA PP
TT HH HH WW WW AA AA PP .. ..
Ich glaube nicht, dass du wuerdest das sagen!
Expire, Reverend! May thine life terminate with the greatest possible agony
and be lengthened in duration such that you shall make torture a career.
Doctor Doom
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 02:38:20 -0500
Reply-To: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Who, me?
<the camera pans to look at 2 guys on a balcony, one of whom looks like he just
recently ate cujo>
GS: So, Roger, what did you think of that last post?
RE: Not bad. It was short on the "deeper meaning", but it had plenty of THWAP
ing going on. How 'bout you.
GS: I disagree. I thought it had plenty of deep meaning, and even more inside
jokes. I didn't see the point of the thwaps.
RE: <interrupts in a stage whisper> You wouldn't.
GS: What was that? Oh, nevermind. As I was saying, I am really looking forward
to any more posts, in the case that any of his team-mates let him live.
RE: I agree. So, I guess we'll give it 2 Carps up.
GS: And, Rog, don't forget to wipe your chin. You seem to have a little 'Cujo'
on your face.
RE: Thanks, I think.
<groan>
Rev (who, more than likely, is not going to live, due to THIS post...=)
*run* *run* *run* *shaw's* (ob-shadowrun-inside-joke)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 03:03:32 -0500
Reply-To: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: And now for something... completely useful.
>>>>[ Hey again chummers, but while hacking the files over at Image I
>discovered some neat new things that their magic group is doing.
>Apparently they've found a way for physads to run faster. It goes
>something like this:<<<<<
Actually, there is something a little better, and fairly obvious (once you get
over the fact that it works MUCH better under SR1).
Running under sr2:
if you have a running skill (or Athletics) you can roll to run faster. You have
a target number of 4. Not bad, right?
Okay. Now take an SR2 physical adept with a Quickness of 6, a Running skill of
6 and 6 magic-dice (from the physical adept "Athletics" dice [were auto-
successes under sr1]). That gives him 12 dice to roll. Say he rolls, ummm...
8 successes. That gives him a running quickness of 14. His running multiplier
is 4. We'll say he gets 2 actions.
NOW, he runs 14*4*2d meters in 3 seconds. (wow!)
64 m 60 s 60 min 1 km
----- * ----- * ------ * ------ ===> 75.6 km/hour (not bad, eh?)
3 sec 1 min 1 hour 1000 m
is this right? I believe so. BCNU, Reverend
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 10:01:40 MDT
Reply-To: "I am wicked, I am Legion" <legion@**************.ARMY.MIL>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "I am wicked, I am Legion" <legion@**************.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Guns, guns, guns...
1- I agree with Steve H. on the DL-9; it couldn't be fired full-auto
or burst-fire across magazines. Most likely, there would be a piece
of the bolt/extractor that would have to be reconfigured before
the other magazine could be loaded from.
2- Bullpup weapons; this configuration of a weapon is truly the wave
of the future (IMHO) along with caseless ammo. I can't think of the
proper term at the moment but it's probably something like "consolidation
of resources." Why have something on a weapon that doesn't have a real
or justifiable purpose.
The Bullpup config greatly reduces the overall size/length of the
weapon and since the barrel is then more enclosed by the firer, as
opposed to being all in front of the firer, the recoil has a more
centralized "mass" to disipate it's force into. Not a whole lot more
but a noticeable difference.
Personally, my gun-freak characters tend to use more bullpups than
others. <I kin carry more ammo if the gun is smaller...>
_________________________________
Mike Loseke | Behold, here cometh the Dreamer.
legion@**************.army.mil | Let us slay him, and we shall see
Minister of Death - SWO | what will become of his dreams.
_________________________________|
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 07:12:00 CST
Reply-To: 92804168@***.UWPLATT.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: 92804168@***.UWPLATT.EDU
You know, the worst thing about having a chain letter sent to a list like
this is not the letter itself; it is all the subsequent letters that other
people send to the list about the chain letter. I have received at least
6 or 7 letters about the chain letter that were, in my opinion, just as much
a waste of space as the letter itself.
I would like to ask the members of the list to refrain from commenting on
such letters in the future. If one gets sent to the list, do NOT spend the
next two days talking about it! Simply mail a letter to the sysadmin of the
place it came from, or let your local sysadmin know about the problem, and
delete the message.
This is not meant to be a flame. I just don't think it is right for us to
complain about a chain letter wasting our time and/or disk space, and then
spend a dozen email messages complaining about it. Its like seending 5 or 6
first class postage letters (at 29 cents each) to someone about 10 cents that
they owe you.
Sincerely,
David L. Hoff
92804168@***.uwplatt.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 15:47:40 BST
Reply-To: P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Phillip Steele <P.C.Steele@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: A Magical Proposition
I've got to admit I quite like this idea and have been considering some changes
to the magic system our group runs at the moment.
At the moment we run S1 with the Grimoire 1, and the fact that our groups
shaman has a magic pool of 24, casts force 1 manabolt slightly irks me to say
the least. Making the force of the spell the target number for resisting is
a great improvement.
However Herr Doom, how do power foucuses factor in to your suggestions ?
The Powerhouse
--
Phillip Steele |
|
P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk |
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 17:05:04 MDT
Reply-To: Legion <legion@**************.ARMY.MIL>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Legion <legion@**************.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: /pub/frp/srun
Someone earlier posted a message about alot of misc. stuff on a machine
called ftp.umd.umich.edu under the directory /pub/frp/srun.
If someone could give me the octal address for this machine, I would be
happy to share my findings with all. The octal address is something like
"192.1.112.35" for instance. I can ftp to any address like that but cannot
ftp to ftp.umd.umich.edu. It isn't in my host file.
Pleaze help!
_________________________________
Mike Loseke | Behold, here cometh the Dreamer.
legion@**************.army.mil | Let us slay him, and we shall see
Minister of Death - SWO | what will become of his dreams.
_________________________________|
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 11:33:02 -0400
Reply-To: "Like, dude, where's the firefight?"
<MURRAYMD@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Like, dude, where's the firefight?"
<MURRAYMD@******.BITNET>
Subject: Herr Dokter, a refutation of your proposal...
>Meine Kamaraden:
> A local Game Master (and good friend of mine) who does not,
>incidentally, participate in the discourse on this list approached me with a
>request as to modification of the ShadowRun Magic System.
Ohhh... Now what!!! He probably wants to make Initiates more
powerful or something. Aaarrrggghhh!!! :)
>(Ahhh...hearken unto the groans from the audience!)
> Part of her motivation was due to the feeling that Initiates should
>receive far more tangible benefits--true, the become privy to the powers of
>Metamagic, but this is rather removed from day-to-day spellcasting, with the
>possible exception of Centering--although its effects are rather indirect for
>my taste.
He does!!! He does!!! Run for your lives!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Another motivation of this is that the Magic Attribute, or as expressed
>in ShadowRun II, the Magic Rating, has precious little bearing on everyday
>spellcasting. She is of the opinion (a sentiment which I share, incidentally),
>that Magic is, or rather should be, composed of a three-tiered system:
Here I would have to disagree. While it does not have too much to
do with the casting of Fire Balls which would rarely be cast at a high
rating, your innocuous/low drain area effect detection spells are affected.
The Magic Attribute defines the max force of the spell and the area that it
covers. The higher the magic attribute, the more that you could
potentially detect.
>Aptitude: The Sorcery Skill
>Experience: The Magic Attribute, raised via Initiation
>Power Level: The Force of the spell
WHOOAA!!! Hang on. Magic Attribute does not equate into
experience. Experience comes in the way of karma. This is expressed in
the character with a higher Sorcery skill or Initiation. Magic Attribute
is a measure of the body's ability to handle magical energies. The body
can be conditioned to handle more magical energy through Initiation. The
Magic Attribute is not a measure of experience, but experience can be used
to allow the body to accept more magical energy: Initiation.
>All three should be important to the role and implementation of magic in the
>System. And this is the assumption from which I shall be drawing conclusions
>in this proposal.
(Shadowrun I stuff deleted.)
>However, now there is Initiation, the ability to raise the Magic Attribute, and
>yet, it plays NO substantial role--considering how much it cost to Initiate,
>and the supposed natural potency of Vampires, it SHOULD be more important.
When you Initiate you are not paying boatloads of karma primarily
for the increased Magic Attribute but for the Metamagic capabilities.
Snicker not at these metamagic capabilities! If some metamagic is not good
enough for you then my assumption is that you are not using it correctly!
>GRIMOIRE II:
>Magic Pool: Sorcery Skill
>Casting-- Magic Pool + Force of Spell
>Resist: Force of Spell
>Sounds familiar, eh? The force of the spell has been re-integrated into the
>system, after a long absence. However, NOW the Magic Attribute determines
>precious few things: Radius of spells and maximum spell force cast without
>physical drain... and how many dice of one's Magic Pool may be brought to bear
>into spell casting. Experience and aptitude only count as far as the Sorcery
>skill is considered.
How right you are! You did forget one thing though: Higher force
spells. While you and you group may not your magic users as such, some
groups have their magic users expand their spell list with more diverse
and/or powerful spells. Do not discount this path to power for Initiation
is only a more popular path.
Another path that should not be overlooked is Sorcery skill
raising. For roughly the same karma cost of Initiating to Level 0 (plus or
minus a few points) you can raise your Sorcery skill by 2 points. These 2
points are added to your Magic Pool. When you sit back and actually think
about the implications I think you'll get as many goosebumbs as I do. :)
>THE PROPOSAL...
>Magic Pool: Magic Attribute
>Casting-- Sorcery Skill (for casting only) + Magic Pool (for drain or casting)
>Resist: Force
>This way, all three tiers in the system are salient. Initiates will have an
>easier time making spells hurt, as they simply possess more dice.
>In this way, EXPERIENCE COUNTS both ways... Adroitness with the skill of
>Sorcery is obviously a great boon. In addition, the new Magic Pool gives the
>magician the edge that such experienced and INITIATED magic-users should have.
>Further, the innate magical capabilities of Vampires are facilitated using
>this.
But what about the magic user that through their experiences has
*lost* magic attribute? Not all magic users go and Initiate. Those that
don't have a possibility of losing Magic Attribute via Deadly wounds,
hospital visits, etc...
>Force has not lost its importance. With the Force still being part of the
>resistance test, the magnitude of thaumaturgical force which is brought to bear
>is conveyed. An experienced Mage casting a Force 1 fireball, unless he has a
>box full of dice, shall witness his targets shrugging the spell off without
>issue. Therefore, a Magician shall still be inclined towards throwing Force 6
>spells, if for no other reason than he wishes his targets to have a difficult
>time rolling them down.
Yet you are still making the spell more powerful than what it was
under the unmodified rules. While what you say is nice for combat spells,
you have not considered the effects on Detection, Health, Illusion, and
some Manipulation spells. The force of the spell is expressed both in the
resistance target number (if applicable) *and* the number of dice thrown.
Under your revisions I could cast a force 1 Detect Life spell yet roll more
than 2 dice for the success test. And here there is no resistance roll.
>RATIONALE
>Casting is, in my opinion, a test to determine with what degree of ability did
>one successfully manipulate the thaumaturgical forces. Obviously, Sorcery
>skill belongs there. The resistance test determines how well the target's body
>can withstand the magnitude of the damaging metaphysical energies that are
>being channeled into his aura. Force is the best definition for this.
>Following this idea, it still shall behoove a Magician to cast high-force
>spells, to assure that his target will experience at least some difficulty in
>resisting the damage.
Part of that difficulty comes in how many successes the target has
to beat down. The number of successes is dependent upon how powerful the
spell is. Under your system the force of the spell has no bearing on how
many successes are possible. The more powerful the spell, the more
successful you potentially could be in casting an effective spell. Force
has less of an impact now.
>Now, as to Magic Attribute. If the level of Magic determines one's level of
>affinity with the Astral Plane--whe'er it is the level of the relationship to
>one's Totem, or the degree to which one is attuned and knowledgeable as to the
>nature and laws of Magic. This explanation also extends to the peculiar
>instance of Vampires, as due to their increased Essence, or Life Force (putting
>aside the rather questionable circumstances under which it was acquired) they
>possess an innately greater proximity to the Magical Realm.
Magic Attribute is not an attunuation of the body to the Astral.
It is a measure of how much magic you can handle. If the book says
otherwise I would like to know the page number for reference.
It is interesting that you mention vampires. By your postulate you
are saying that Vampires are inherently better magic users because of their
better attunuation. Why should magical virus infected individuals be
better spellcasters when they only suffer from wildly variating essence?
If you feel that Vampires should be better spellcasters then give them a
higher Sorcery skill to through against the players. If you are posting
these proposed changes so that PC Vampires can be more powerful then I will
let you find the wet carp on your own accord.
>In the case of all magic users, it stands to reason that this affinity, this
>familiarity can be employed in the process of the wielding spells, and hence
>it is logical that it occupies a place in the Casting spell test. Also, being
>attuned to the _nature_ of preternatural energies, it is not unreasonable to
>argue that one may receive insight as to methods by which one may utilize the
>metaphysical forces while lessening the impact upon the corporeal form. The
>closer one is, the greater ability one has to wield it without harm. This
>translates into the ability to use the Magic Pool to reduce drain.
Refer to above arguments.
>Why am I inclined towards this system? Initiates receive a more tangible edge
>in the day-to-day of magic for all their efforts. Also, neither Sorcery or
>Force has been discounted, as happened in Grimoire I.
Why should Initiates be more powerful in the brute force matters of
spellcasting? If anything they should be better at the goofy little things
in magic such as the meta-magical capabilities. When I hear a good reason
why Initiates should be better at the more brutish aspects of magic then we
will proceed from there.
>Now, as to disclaimers:
>If you are content with the present system, FINE. My desire is to formulate an
>equitable alternative for those who question the small role Magic Rating
>occupies in the system. My purpose is not to have members extolling the
>virtues of the present system and vilify me for impinging upon its pristine
>beauty...etc, etc.
I only question your interpretations of the various subjects
presented here. If your assumptions were correct then you might have some
ground to stand on. Unfortunately for your arguments I question the
validity of the assumptions and definitions made.
>I have not railed out against the present system, calling for reform and
>revision. I approached this problem as a theoretician would, that upon
>encountering a problem, proposed a solution, which is then put to the tests
>that it must be logical, rational, as well as both feasible and equitable in
>its role in the system. Note that I am not floccinaucinihilipilificating the
>present system--In truth, I am actually rather fond of the apparatus as
>presented in Grimoire II; what I put forth here is only intended as a viable
>alternative.
And hence why I have responded to your post in a hopefully
respectable manner. As can be expected this refutation of your posting was
intended in a non-inflammatory manner.
> Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc, PhD.
> Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark Thought Publications
> >>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
<<<
> [ Doctor Doom : jch8169@********.tamu.edu ]
*************************************************************************
* What should I do today? | Matt Murray at the University of Dayton *
*1) Carpet Bomb the Vatican? | MURRAYMD@******.BITNET *
*2) Club a baby seal? | MURRAYMD@******.OCA.UDAYTON.EDU *
*3) Have a beer? Beer! | "Like, dude, where's the firefight?" *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Star Fleet Battles Battletech Shadowrun Space Marine AD&D *
*************************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 12:03:38 -0400
Reply-To: mmd <mmd@***.UMD.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: mmd <mmd@***.UMD.EDU>
Subject: ftp.umd.umich.edu
The 'octal' address is 141.215.69.7, altho I couldn't find anything SR related
when I went peering into their files... maybe you can.
Andrew
\ [A
(ggrrrrrrrr....)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 12:11:55 -0400
Reply-To: "Like, dude, where's the firefight?"
<MURRAYMD@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Like, dude, where's the firefight?"
<MURRAYMD@******.BITNET>
Subject: Shadowrun I Magic
>I've got to admit I quite like this idea and have been considering some changes
>to the magic system our group runs at the moment.
>At the moment we run S1 with the Grimoire 1, and the fact that our groups
>shaman has a magic pool of 24, casts force 1 manabolt slightly irks me to say
>the least. Making the force of the spell the target number for resisting is
>a great improvement.
Shadowrun I/Goomore I Magic!?! Run away! Run Away!!! That magic
system is so unbalanced towards the magic users it *is* funny. I agree
with you, magic users that powerful are quite irksome.
For a mucho more balanced magic system I suggest going to SR2
IMNSHO. This will take care of the shamantic blaster.
>The Powerhouse
>--
>Phillip Steele |
> |
>P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk |
*************************************************************************
* What should I do today? | Matt Murray at the University of Dayton *
*1) Carpet Bomb the Vatican? | MURRAYMD@******.BITNET *
*2) Club a baby seal? | MURRAYMD@******.OCA.UDAYTON.EDU *
*3) Have a beer? Beer! | "Like, dude, where's the firefight?" *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Star Fleet Battles Battletech Shadowrun Space Marine AD&D *
*************************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 10:01:28 -0700
Reply-To: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Jeremy Roberson <ROBERSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Chain Letters
In Response to Chad Mawson:
Yeah, I got two copies of the chain letter. I replied three times
with two screenfuls of gibberish and forwarded it to the system for
The Man In Charge to take care of. The sysop on duty said she wasn't sure
but it may well be illegal to send chain letters via E-Mail; if so we've
got the address and can check it out. . .
J Roberson
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 13:30:11 EDT
Reply-To: "Richard L. Davis" <IP85409@********.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Richard L. Davis" <IP85409@********.BITNET>
Subject: ChainLetters
For clarification, chain letters are illegal in most states and countries.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 11:23:00 CST
Reply-To: 92804168@***.UWPLATT.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: 92804168@***.UWPLATT.EDU
Subject: SR PBEM Opening!!
************************ ANNOUNCEMENT *************************
I am looking for players for a Shadowrun PBEM game. This game will be
played through the end of the year AND OVER THE SUMMER. This means that
you must have access to email through the summer months. What I need
from interested players is the following:
1) A "character sheet" for your character, including all the technical
data, such as stats, skills, equipment, etc.
2) A "personal data sheet" for the character, which includes a summary of
the character, their lifestile, temperments, outlook on life, etc.
3) Your current email address, and your summer address if it will be different.
4) 3 names: Your real name, your character's "real name", and your character's
"street name".
NOTES:
Characters may be from either SR I or SR II, I will make any necessary changes.
I use a modified combat table, which includes hit locations. So, be aware that
an armored jacket will do nothing to protect you from damage to the legs or
head. You may wish to purchase additional armor as you see fit.
NO CHARACTER MAY START WITH ALPHA OR BETA CYBERWARE OR ANYTHING FROM
SHADOWTECH WITHOUT A "SPECIAL CONTACT". These contacts are created on an
individual basis, and will cost between 10 and 20 K each. Send me special
email if you want one.
Positions for this game will not be on a straight first-come, first-served
basis. I reserve the right to choose characters that are more interesting or
that fit the group over those that are hastily done or are not suitable.
Well thats about it. I will send another message to the list when my game
becomes full.
***************************************************************************
* David L. Hoff | Secretary of E-mail Correspondence *
* Internet: 92804168@***.uwplatt.edu | Platteville Gaming Association *
* Bitnet: 92804168@******* | Univ. of Wisconsin - Platteville *
*____________________________________|____________________________________*
* "When old friends get together, all else fades into insignificance." *
* -- War, Famine, Pestilence, and Death *
***************************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 14:08:16 -0400
Reply-To: Brian Angliss <angliss@******.PSU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Brian Angliss <angliss@******.PSU.EDU>
Subject: A question on SR games, power levels, etc.
At this point, most of you are probably very aware that I run a very high
powered, excessively(to a fault sometimes) non-standard game of ShadowRun where
life is one heck of a lot more dangerous and horrific than FASA would ever
allow. But my question is just what kind of ShadowRun game does everyone else
run/play? What is the relative lethality? How much more or less powerful do
you make various character classes to achieve what you see as a balanced game?
Anything at all will be welcomed. I just want to see it, any of it, good or
bad.
Thanks.
Brian
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 13:23:11 CDT
Reply-To: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Subject: lethality and game balance
Right now my players are too powerful, and the opposition that I keep coming
up with is usually way underpowered, or way overpowered. From the SRII rule-
book we left ranged combat alone, but power levels in Melee are taken times 1.5
wich I think is called Moderate threat level. It works OK for us. My biggest
problem right now is that the Shaman in the group looks at anything cross-
eyed and blows it into a million pieces.
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
| Chad Mawson *-* History Major, Nebraska Weseleyan University *-* |
| Internet e-mail: csm2747@******.nebrwesleyan.edu Lincoln, Nebraska |
| |
|-> 12. A sucking chest wound is Nature's way of telling you to slow down. <- |
| - from Murphy's Laws of Combat |
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 14:54:24 EDT
Reply-To: loewenst@****.rutgers.edu
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: David Loewenstern <loewenst@****.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Re: SR PBEM Opening!!
In-Reply-To: <9304161739.AA10404@****.rutgers.edu>
"92804168@***.uwplatt.edu"
>>>>>[
Here is a character I've played in a previous game, which I'd be
interested in playing in your game. He's an initial character -- the
old game broke up before the ref ever assigned karma.
The character is SR I. Since I wrote up the character, I have
acquired SR II and the Grimoire, so if the character is accepted I can
adjust his stats and spells appropriately.
]<<<<<
-- Quincunx < 10:04:15 / Apr 16 2054>
--- character follows ---
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jason Gollub aka Quincunx |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Mixed-race(C/N) human Hermetic mage 25 years old
Short, slight
+================================================+
| Body 2 Quick 2 Str 1 Ch 4 |
| Int 5 Will 6 Ess 6 React 3+4d6|
| Magic 6 | current fatigue:0
| Pools: Magic 6 Dodge | damage: 0
| Total Karma: 0 Current Karma: 0 |
+================================================+
Skills
Sorcery 6
Conjuring 4
Enchanting 1
Magic Theory 6
Etiquette (Academic) 1
Physical Science 1
History 1
English 6
German 5
Latin 3
Spells
stunblast 6/9 (excl,rfetish)
urban renewal 2/6 (efetish,excl)
analyze truth 3/5 (excl)
analyze device 1/4 (excl, rfetish)
clairvoyance (ext range) 1
clairaudience 1
combat sense 1/3 (efetish)
detox D 1/3 (excl)
increased reflexes 1/3 (excl)
healthy glow 1/3 (excl)
power ball 2/6 (excl, efetish)
physical mask 1
clout 5
levitate item 4/6 (efetish)
shapechange 1
fashion 1
mind probe 2/6 (efetish, excl)
toxic wave 2/6 (efetish, excl)
ice sheet 1/3 (excl)
*control machine 2/6 (efetish, excl)
*relative down 1
*det enemies, x100 1
*det indiv x1000 2/5 (rfetish, excl)
*concealment 1
*mass concealment 1
spell descriptions:
Control machine: permits the mage to unlock doors, turn off alarms, etc.
Certainly can be used to stall out a car or cause brakes to fail.
major physical change M2
physical M3
non-living only L3
Relative down: permits subject to walk on walls, ceiling, etc.
"Down" is the direction of the feet. (Seen on r.a.f.m)
major environmental S2
voluntary subject M2
touch required L2
Detect enemies, x100: Just like detect enemies, extended range,
but more extended.
analyze state M1
area S1
voluntary subject M1
area x 100 D1
touch required S1
Detect individual, x1000: Just like detect enemies, extended range,
but more extended.
simple detection L1
area M1
voluntary subject L1
area x1000 D1
touch required S1
Concealment: similar to invisibility, but operates on a different
principle. Subject becomes difficult to detect by any means, not
just visible light, but also sound, smell, etc. Similar to the
spirit ability of the same name. Add +2 for each success
to all perception checks against the subject.
realistic full sense S1
physical S2
voluntary subject M2
touch required L2
Mass Concealment: Like concealment, but an area effect.
realistic full sense S1
physical S2
voluntary subject M2
area S2
EQUIPMENT
---------
Lined Coat
House/Office (High Lifestyle, 2 mo. prepaid) = 20KY
DocWagon Gold, 1yr. = 25KY
Computer Media Hermetic Library = 113KY
Sorcery 6
Conjuring 5
Magic Theory 6
Enchanting 4
fetishes:
urban renewal 3
stunblast (reusable) 1
control thoughts 4
levitate item 4
mind probe 6
control machine 6
power ball 6
toxic wave 4
combat sense 4
det indiv (reusable) 1
analyze device (reusable) 1
spell locks: = 135KY
combat sense
increased reflexes
analyze truth
magical materials: I don't have the Grimoire with me: if I can afford
a lab, I'll have one. Balance of cash in elemental conjuring and
ritual sorcery materials
Personal credstick: (3d6*1000 - 1500)Y= 7500Y
Certified (transferrable) credstick: 1000Y
500Y Cash.
Contacts = 30KY
--------
Advisor at MITM
Street Mage
Talismonger
Combat Mage
other magical type (an enchanter?)
Street doc
Background: Quincunx was born to a lower-middle class family in Philadelphia,
which in 2027 was even poorer and more eclipsed by New York than in
1992. His significant magical aptitude and determination to get
ahead led to Penn State (still going, still cheap, mostly corporate
sponsored now) for a B.A. in Hermetic Magic, and MITM for an M.A. in
Spell Design. At this point, Quincunx is rather disenchanted with
the university life, having seen how coopted it has become,
especially in technical disciplines and magic. Furthermore, Quincunx
is a rather independent sort, and could not stomach the PhD system.
Personal independence being important to him, he has no interest in
working for the corps.
Quincunx has been in Seattle only for a few months, perhaps a year.
He chose Seattle because of its reputation as an exciting city
(because of its status as a state surrounded by foreign nations), and
because it is probably one of the best places in UCAS in which to
make one's fortune. His original goal was to set himself up as a
consulting mage, selling spells to mundanes and spell formulae to
mages. So far, though, business hasn't been very good, and he needs
a few quick scores to get himself settled. He's been involved with
only one or two small runs, but has decided that it's as good a method
of getting established as most.
Personality: Quincunx will use modern technology, but he really is
something of an antiquarian, with a real disdain for firearms,
cyberware, decking. He is especially contemptuous of decking and
virtual reality (quotes: "Astral space for mundanes," "Jerking off and
tuning out, courtesy of Fuchi.")
Magic, for him, is an art form and a scholarly activity, and not
simply a way of getting powerful. Given a million nuyen, he says he'd
probably set up a lab and spend his life designing unusual spells and
foci, and exploring metamagic. In fact, this is probably true to some
extent, but Quincunx is less a brilliant or dedicated researcher than
he likes to believe.
Quincunx is very careful about keeping up the appearance of certainty
and super-competence. He likes playing the "wise, careful, mysterious
wizard" and often seems _much_ older than he really is. He is
therefore easily manipulated by flattery.
There is still quite a bit of the small, slight, scared kid in him.
When he was a little, nerdish kid, magic was a great power trip, and
Quincunx still carries a (non-technological) chip on his shoulder
because of that.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 14:55:14 -0500
Reply-To: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania
Subject: MAGIC !!!!!
Did someone mention....
MAGIC
** Cracking of knuckles **
Well,
Herr Doom. When I first read the discourse you gave I was highly
impressed. I it sounded really good on the first glance. You see
I tend to agree with you - what tangible things do initiates get
from initiating besides centering. Well at first I loved the post
then I got the post against it and read it. I started to change
my opinion.
I agree with the second person in that your system is GREAT
for combat spells but it really does lack for those detection and other
spells. After all, a better spell (higher force) should be better at
detection than a low level spell. This doesn't happen in your new
way of things.
So I have decided to bring forward something I have been working on.
Have you ever noticed when you initiate (get better at magic) that
area of your spells increase (magic attribute) and it gets harder
to keep them small (those successes are harder to get the higher
your magic is)? Or that holding that power focus (that focuses your
magic) increases your magic attribute and the size of the spell to much
for it to be effective any longer? Well fear no more because I have
come up with a solution. With initiation do not use your magic
attribute as it stands for spell area - rather you take your base (the
6 - any loses) magic attribute and either add or subtract your
grade. Yes boys and girls, at level 5 you could be casting that
wonderful 1 meter fireball instead of that 11 meter one that you
normally have to cast!! But wait "what about power focuses?" you say,
well here I leave up to you either you can just ignore the focus if
you want to when determining the area ( a non initiate will then
always have area 6 if he or she wants) or you can use the focus like
grades in initiation, raising and lowering the area of the spell
by the focus rating ( a power focus 3 would let you effect an area
from 3 meters to 9 meters!!).
Now, does this not sound like a wonderful thing to do for initiates
who because of their "better understanding of magic" can not control
the size of spells?
Nightfox
wow I might have come up
with something intelligent!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Waisley Lglumka@***.grove.iup.edu --------(-- IUP FENCING
SCA - Shire of Robledol, Households - Cryptic Demesne (fencing) + Brotherhood
of Agincourt (archery),
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry for any bad grammer or spelling, etc. My mind works at 637
thoughts per minute, and my hands at 1.2 letters per second
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 15:01:09 EDT
Reply-To: loewenst@****.rutgers.edu
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: David Loewenstern <loewenst@****.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Re: SR PBEM Opening!!
In-Reply-To: <9304161858.AA13193@****.rutgers.edu>
"loewenst@****.rutgers.edu"
>>>>>[
Sorry about that. I typed the wrong "reply" command, and accidently
cc'ed a copy of my character sheet to the list. Please disregard.
]<<<<<
-- Quincunx < 15:01:06 / Apr 16 2054 >
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 12:57:10 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Magic stuff!
Doctor Doom,
I'll have to agree with Matt Murray and Nightfox. Your rules make combat
spells more powerful (something that is not needed) and makes the force of any
non-resisted spells illrelavent. Also being an initiate shouldn't make you
better at brute for spell casting the way you propose.
I also am lead to assume that you don't understand the implications of the
Centering Metamagic power. This is basically a finesss skill for initiates. By
using it they can increase the power of thier spells anyway they want. You can
gain extra successes on the force test. You can gain extra successes on the
drain test. You can _reduce_ modifiers to your success test. The last one is
nothing to discount. Do you like the idea of the seriously drained mage casting
spells like he hasn't been touched? Do you like the idea of a mage casting a
spell like you and ignoring the fact that you have partial cover? IMHO
Centering is enough reason to become an initiate all by it's self!
Then there's Shielding. A couple of shielding dice makes an easy kill into
the classical hunt for sixes attack. I won't even go on about the other
Metamagic powers.
Also, I believe more than once people have asked the question, "Just what does
the magic attribute count for anyway?" I also remember sending a list of at
least six different things in SRII that are depended upon the magic attribute.
Now this is not meant as a flame, but you seemed to have overlooked these
things. My personal advice is even if you use SRI, incorporate SRII magic into
your game. It's alot more balanced, infavor of the non-magicians.
I would also like to say I like Nightfox's suggestion on initiates and area
effect spells. And lastly I want to ask a question that has pestered me for a
long time, "Why doesn't the magic attribute affect summoning in any way shape or
form?" The way the rules are written, you can make a conjurer adept and savage
your magic attribute as long as you keep 1 point around (and you can't lose your
last point of magic unless you put in too much cyberware).
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 13:20:58 -0700
Reply-To: HAHN@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: stefan hahn <HAHN@***.EDU>
Subject: area effects
r
r
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 13:32:52 -0700
Reply-To: HAHN@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: stefan hahn <HAHN@***.EDU>
Subject: sorry about that
Last message got blipped. damn
Anyway, As I was saying, magic is supposed to be easier to control if
You're an Initiate, so area effects should be easier to affect as well.
BTW, is it possible to do a selective area effect, as in, sleep everyone
within 20 meters except Bob, Joe, and me.
-30-
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 13:12:38 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Power Levels
Brian,
IMHO it seems like you run a ludicreously powerful game :) , but seriously
the game Ed (Highlander) runs and Jeremy Roberson, Steve Huth (Spectre), Stefan
Hahn, and myself play in is pretty much a standard SRII game. In fact it's
rather underpowered (sorry Ed, but we've never really ben in any danger of dying
when you were GMing).
Right now Steve is running a hybrid NAN I & II adventure (yes, the character
killer adventures) that has us shaking in our boots. During this adventure my
character, Raven, has gotten shot (hasn't happened in at least three adventures)
and gotton into a down an dirty, karma burning, autosuccess buying, astral
battle, and we haven't even met the major villian!
As for lethality, lots of NPC's die, but we've gotton pretty good at hiding
our butts when the bullets begin to fly. Of course in SRII it just takes one
shot to end your life.
Lastly we don't make any of the Archetypes anymore or less dangerous then they
are in the book. That's probably because nobody uses them, we make our own
characters (PC and NPC).
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 13:48:08 -0700
Reply-To: HAHN@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: stefan hahn <HAHN@***.EDU>
Subject: excuse me!
Whaddayamean, Shaking in our boots!?!
I never shook! I was hiding in the bathroom the entire time!
-30-
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 09:19:00 EDT
Reply-To: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Subject: posting and copyrights
Nightfox,
you can't copyright a "concept," "conception," or "idea."
only a manuscript,
name, or some other animal in writing or in physical form.
sorry, but that angle can't stop ppl from using your character.
Brian,
i thought the voodoo was from white wolf - a "semi-official" source ;)
(if it was original, could you email me a fresh copy?)
i've read the voodoo material in white wolf and i found it interesting.
it tends to open a whole new branch of magic within the SR rules -
shamans, hermetics and voodoo. i'm not *completely* comfortable with that
since it's akin to openning a bottomless barrel of monkies.
i did read the entire martial arts post that you made. my first impression
was "neat powers, but thost skill level requirements are outrageous!!"
then i read those "neat powers" again, thought about my own cyber-assassin
character (unarmed concentration in short hand kung fu of 7) and decided
that your system seemed well balanced after all ;) (still hard to get,
but well balanced).
CKS,
good to see, i was just wondering the other day if you were still with us ;)
i tend to agree with the idea of taking the "copyright discussion" off this
list. there are other lists better prepared to deal with the topic (not that
this list _can't_, but i smell a flame war brewing in the background).
i like the idea of a "comittee" being willing to look into it. good summer
project for anyone with ideas and no where to publish them!
patric
progers@******.bitnet
Sanctuary BBS, 517/629-2002, 24 hrs, 9600/N81, Gaming and Computer Networks
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 14:03:27 -0700
Reply-To: HAHN@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: stefan hahn <HAHN@***.EDU>
Subject: #@^%#*^%#!
Enough about the fraggin' chain letter already!
{Insert Dikoted CyberCarp Here}
********** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ******
*TTTTTTTT* *HHH* *HHH* *WWW* *WWW* *AAA* *PPPPPP*
*TTTTTTTT* *HHH* *HHH* *WWW* *WWW* *AAAAA* *PPPPPPP*
****TT**** *HHH* *HHH* *WWW* *WWW* *AAA*AAA* *PP* *PPP*
*TT* *HHH*****HHH* *WWW* * *WWW* *AAA* *AAA* *PPP*PPP*
*TT* *HHHHHHHHHHH* *WWW* *W* *WWW* *AAA***AAA* *PPPPP*
*TT* *HHH*****HHH* *WWW**WWW**WWW* *AAAAAAAAA* *PPP**
*TT* *HHH* *HHH* *WWW*WW*WW*WWW* *AAA***AAA* *PPP*
*TT* *HHH* *HHH* *WWWWW* *WWWWW* *AAA* *AAA* *PPP*
*TT* *HHH* *HHH* *WWWW* *WWWW* *AAA* *AAA* *PPP*
**** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****
This thwap brought to you by Thwaptronics Limited
A Shape-changing Non-detection Moose Production
-30-
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 14:35:35 -0700
Reply-To: MATUSKEY@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Ed Matuskey <MATUSKEY@***.EDU>
Subject: Mage-slavers, Round 2 (ding!)
Whoa: I'm engaged in a full-fledged rebuttal (and subject heading) war, when
I'm blindsided by the sudden appearance of Doctor Doom. Ugh, my head. But I
won't let them stop me: I'm fighting for the freedom of spirits everywhere! :>
I'm going to dismiss Carter's statements that my statements are pure
speculation, since he has very little actual proof to refute me with (of
course, I have very little to back my claim up with, so we're even).
I will take the time to speak out against Doctor Doom's allegations that
elementals aren't treated as slaves. You make many good points, Doctor, but
I have to disagree with your definitions: I may go so far as to say that
elementals are treated as freer slaves than has been recorded in history, but
they are still bound to another's will.
You said that magicians don't have to use all of the services: so? Most
usually do: I have yet to see any mage who hasn't gotten their money's worth
from the spirit they've summoned.
They are "free" to roam around when the magician doesn't need them: so they
have a long leash: they still have to answer when called, and do whatever they
are told, no matter how existence-threatening.
They should feel grateful for the chance to visit our world: what have they to
enjoy? They're wrenched from their own plane (or created from the astral,
take your pick), brought here to serve another, and then, once their services
are complete, provided the mage doesn't add on more services with another
ritual, they are sent back whence they came. Gee, sounds wonderful.
Allies (back to Carter): okay, so some eventually grow to like their master:
not all will: are they to be punished because a few others found a "good"
owner?
Oh, and being a decker has nothing to do with this discussion. I don't traffic
in the use of sentient creatures for my own purposes, so my conscience is
clear. Is yours, Jason? You steal too, or do you not remember that mage's
house you guys raided?
-Ed
-Highlander
Woozy, but still on his feet. HELP!!!!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 17:28:16 CDT
Reply-To: bellovar@***.WISC.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Christopher Bellovary <bellovar@***.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: CrossFire Comments
>>>>>[ Hiya folks! Just writing to let you all know something that
perhaps
I do not need to say, and perhaps I do. Sometimes when I post a reply to a
post, all I am doing is looking for the reasoning behind it. It does not
always mean that I am against it. Sometimes the best stuff comes out of
things where an arguement is presented against it, just because, by the end,
it is truly been gone through by multiple people.
I don't _think_ I needed to say this, but just to be on the safe
side, I did. Sorry about wasting the bandwidth! ]<<<<<
-- CrossFire <17:28:34/04-16-54>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 12:45:50 -0600
Reply-To: "I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY...IT'S BETTER TO BURNOUT THEN TO FADE
AWAY" <STU524636420@***.COLORADO.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY...IT'S BETTER TO BURNOUT THEN TO FADE
AWAY" <STU524636420@***.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: An anti-spirit/elemental slavery polyclub...
>>>>>[Q:
what do you get when a large group of fanatics decide that
spirits are being treated like slaves (some of these people being mages
and such), and you give them the monitary backing of some free spirits
who were treated like drek when they were allies or bound?
A: You get a great oppertunity for the GM to bring yet another twist in to
the world of shadowrun. These fanitics would be a force to keep players
on their toes, in astral space or in the mundane world. Just immagine the
number of mercenaries that this polyclub could buy. Every thirty days
any free spirits backing this 'pclub could use their wealth ability and
poof, 6d6*8000Ÿ in rare gems pop in to the 'pclubs coffers. (note: this
represents a fairly powerful free spirit) Not to mention the money that
could be pulled in by telethons, run weekly on the trid chanels that the
rich mundanes love to watch. I think that this polyclub should be the
real focus of this slavery debate, as the laws of seatle and most cities
have come to the conclusion that as long as they cannot prove that spirits
and elementals are free willed individuals, slav... ah, er, binding is legal.
Incidently, p.76 of the Grimoire II states in the section under FREE SPIRITS
that a free spirit is "a non-player character with free will, its own goals
and tastes, and everything eles that makes a character unique." This would
seem to imply that knowing or activly reaserching a free spirits true name
is an attempt to force it into servitude, ie. slavery. Also on page 64 of
the same grimthingie it is stated that "Spirits swim in the energies of
magic like dolphins--or sharks--in the bosom of the ocean. Conjuring Skill
unlocks the gates between the planes to admit spirits to the physical plane."
Sounds to me like the spirit is there before a mage chains...ah, er, binds
it to him. In the next paragraph allies are called "companions or a slave."
Kind of makes you wonder when the great socitey of the 2050's should raise
its head and say "Alright, because some people abuse their power over these
beings we are going to have to outlaw binding of spirits. We appoligize
to the mages who are not like slavers but we have to draw a line."
Well, I think that I'll let these comments stir up things a bit.]<<<<<
BurnouT
Russ Hutchison stu524636420@***.colorado.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 19:20:00 EDT
Reply-To: Blaidd mab Ceryddwen <MHILLIARD@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Blaidd mab Ceryddwen <MHILLIARD@******.BITNET>
Subject: Coprwight
Gee, for the second time this week I'm doing what I said I'd never do again:
post in SHADOWRN.
logic and slavery: Ahem, The supposition that spirits do not exist before
being summoned is still baseless. Further, it is false. This is based on the
premise that Shadowrun's magick system is based on the form of magick practiced
by Native American Shamans, Witches, Druids, and Sorcerers in the real world.
Whether or not you believe, or think the above folks are looney, that IS the
basis of the system. The stuff is available at any local library. Therein, it
is written, the Elements exist in their own right. I imaging Spirits do too,
though I didn't do as much research in that area. Watchers and Allies, on the
other hand, are formed by the summoning mage. In my campaign we used Willpower,
rather than Charisma, for the tests involved there.
But I digress. I wanted to talk about copyright. Firstly, sending 'envoys' as
someone put it, to other boards where someone who knows about copyright law can
be found, is a REAL good idea, and I hope it's being done.
I would be really pissed if someone used my characters, whom I've put a lot
of time and effort into, and didn't attribute them to me. I could care less
about compensation, but I'd like my name attached.
In spite of that, I'd really like to see the MONICA affair published in some
fasion. It's just too good a story to get lost in someone's hard-drive. Maybe
FASA could be persuaded to put it in a 2nd edition of VR, in place of the
'Matrix-Born' story? Or, some people have mentioned that they're writting a
novel of it. I'd try myself, and will if no one else does, but I think that
some of the others have more skill that I in such an endeavor. In whatever
format, a short dedication page listing the participants of the original
story and their contributions to it, would satisfy me. Basically, an elaborated
version of what they did for the first Chromebook supplement to R. Talsorian
Games' Cyberpunk 2020.
Whew, that's a mouthful.
While I'm here:
To whoever posted the Dove totem: LOVED IT! Awesome!!! (Gosh, am I
behind. Don'cha hate it when the mainframe explodes?)
Dr Doom: I like your mod to the magick system. I always thougt the
Magick Attribute didn't do enough.
To his detractors: Yeah, it makes magicians more powerful. As a
practising Witch, what can I say but:
LIVE WITH IT, MUNDANES!!!!!!!!!!!!! *maniacal laughter*
To MY detractors: My point-based magick rules are working out
swimmingly, so HA!
To: Harlequin/Elf: Dummy, a Battletech gauss rifle isn't LIKE a
railgun, it IS a railgun. *thwap*!
To Twaptronics: Love the dikoted cybercarp! Have I got a use for this!
Phelan the Immortal
>=[
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 16:58:21 -0700
Reply-To: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Jeremy Roberson <ROBERSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Copyrights & Cyberthwaps
We now have an example for use in the copyright debate. I realize I suggested
itbe taken somewhere else, but the opportunity is just
too good to pass up.
Around 2:00 in the morning, Hahn, Carter, and I were discussing some of the
sillier things that have come up on both Shadowrun and Shadowtalk. Eventually,
conversation drifted to thwaps and dikoting. On the spur of the moment, I
mentioned that a real idiot should get hit with a dikoted thwap. There were
laughs all around.
So the concept of the Dikoted Thwap was out, known only to me, Carter,
and Hahn, as well as one other identified only as, "Budke".
Now, as Dr. Doom, can attest, I "posted" the first Dikoted Thwap, to
him personally. All I did was edit his and put "*" and "d" around it
and wrote
a short blurb describing it as "Product-Improved". I sent it only to Doom as
a courtesy since he provided the original one, and planned to send the other
one later.
Two hours later, I witnessed Hahn send his (which he typed up himself)
to the general list.
Now, we have two dikoted thwaps.
The Dikoted thwap is an idea, and CANNOT be copyrighted.
My Thwap is my thwap, and even though it is based on Doom's
it's my copyright.
Hahn's Thwap is his thwap, and he has the rights to it.
Anyone else can come up with their own dikoted thwap, and as long as
it is different from the rest it is yours. An analogy can be made to the
wheel;
the wheel, as a concept, can't be copyrighted, but the various versions
(Goodyear radials, etc) can be.
J Roberson
I'd rather be a Decker than a Mage
Yes I would
If I only could
I surely would
--El Condor Pasa
Simon Garfunkel, 2052
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 20:30:00 EDT
Reply-To: CSD108@*****.PSU.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Craig S. Dohmen" <CSD108@*****.PSU.EDU>
Subject: grimmer 1 magic
Doctor Doom:
Don't be so sure about spellcasting in Grim I being Magic Pool + Sorcery
skill. I know it says in a couple of places about a "Sorcery test" meaning
"roll sorcery skill", but read the Rikki Ratboy example on pg. 26.
"Rikki is a Grade 3 Initiate and has Sorcery Skill 7. He cast a Force 1
Stink Spell, augmenting it with 5 dice from his Magic Pool. That's 6 dice,
total." ^
This implies Force+Magic Pool. And I'm almost certain it says "Force Test"
somewhere instead of "Sorcery Test".
*Sigh* But what's one more ambiguity?
--Presto
_______________________________________________________________________
| Trouble with Tribbles? Try | Internet: CSD108@*****.psu.edu |
| - N E R P S ! - | Bitnet : CSD108@***** |
| For Tribbles | "668: Neighbor of the Beast" |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 20:30:39 EDT
Reply-To: Robert Link <link@*****.PHYSICS.FSU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Robert Link <link@*****.PHYSICS.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Chain letter posted 15 Apr, 1993
> I was going to send my twenty copies of that %^&* #@$% chain letter
> back at the jerk that sent it but I lost the address. It was something
> like skeptic@******* something or another. If someone could send me the
> address (not the entire letter, thank you) of the sender I could send my 20
> copies back at them.
> I encourage you to send 20 copies to the sender also. That should
> teach them.
>
Ok, people, everyone take a break from the moral outrage motiff for just
one second and take a look at the reply-to address on that chain letter.
Notice that it is a discussion group/mailing list address, the "Skeptic"
mailing list, which, I suspect probably carries gated articles from
sci.skeptic.
Now, let's exercise a little brain power here; I know we can do it.
1) This guy probably wasn't trying to propagate this chain letter, but
rather was inviting us to join in on the discussion on it. Ok, so he didn't
do a very good job of making his intent clear, and he vastly overestimated
our interest in discussing the matter. Nevertheless, that does not justify
flying off the handle.
2) What's this garbage about sending 20 copies back to him anyway. First off,
there's a reasonably good chance that he can just write a script to kill the
letters wholesale, and never be bothered by them. Second, and more important,
if you send the letters to the mailing list, as I mentioned before, there's
a good chance they'll be gated to usenet and distributed to *every* site in
the US, and possibly the world--20 times each. And you thought *his* post
was a waste of bandwidth? Come on, people.
3) Any disruption that the chain letter post caused is far and away over
shadowed by the disruption caused by seeing 100 posts to this list saying
"String the bastard up and light him on fire and show the spectacle on CNN!"
Again, more bandwidth down the tubes.
4) If each and every one of us sent a letter to the offender's postmaster,
take a moment to think about the result: the sysadmin at that site has to
read a zillion letters saying "This guy's a fiend. Kill him, now." Now,
what did this sysadmin (who is undoubtedly a very busy person) do to deserve
this treatment. Someone (I forget who) suggested that in a situation like
this, you should check your system time, and mail a complaint to the sysadmin
*only* if the seconds field reads `:00'. It sounds like sound advice to me;
take it to heart.
Remember, folks, just because you and I don't pay for our network
transmissions doesn't mean they're free, and our flames (which the offender
probably doesn't ever read anyhow) are just as much an annoyance as the
original post. Let it slide. . .
Robert Link (soapbox mode)--terminate.
-rpl
"No one holds command over me. No man. No god. No Prince.
What is a claim of age for ones who are immortal? What is a
claim of power for ones who defy death? Call your damnable
hunt. We shall see whom I drag screaming to hell with me."
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 23:08:13 -0500
Reply-To: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Slavery and Salivating, an unseen connection?
Herr Highlander:
>I will take the time to speak out against Doctor Doom's allegations that
>elementals aren't treated as slaves. You make many good points, Doctor, but
>I have to disagree with your definitions: I may go so far as to say that
>elementals are treated as freer slaves than has been recorded in history, but
>they are still bound to another's will.
An interesting statement, although the points to which it responds did not
appear in my earlier posting. I never stated that Elementals cannot be TREATED
as slaves. I merely stated the institution of conjuring these beings is not,
in and of itself, slavery.
They are subject to a finite and usually small number of directives of the
summoning Magician. They respond to and are subject to orders, they do not
wait in anticipation of the Magician's every whim. Your argument still largely
rests upon semantic, in that your supposition still depend on the use of the
word "bound". Hearken unto the fact that Elementals do not sit in anticipation
of the next desire of the Mage. They follow specific commands. True, as is
often true in the cases of authority, there are abuses of such power, but the
issue is not of such individual treatment, and I shall elucidate as to why:
You claim that ALL Magicians are slavers. Therefore, it this discussion has
transcended any questions of individual relations or interpersonal treatment.
Were you alleging that a certain Mage was acting as a slaver, that would
incorporate the issues of treatment. But that is not what you have done: You
are attacking the institution, indicating it is, due to its very nature,
slavery. You are declaring all who engage in this practice to be slavers.
Whether one mage is conducting himself in a manner similar to a slave owner is
an issue of an individual nature. Now, as to the supposition that the very act
of Elemental conjuring is slavery, you seek to impinge upon the honor of all
participants in the Hermetic tradition.
>You said that magicians don't have to use all of the services: so? Most
>usually do: I have yet to see any mage who hasn't gotten their money's worth
>from the spirit they've summoned.
>They are "free" to roam around when the magician doesn't need them: so they
>have a long leash: they still have to answer when called, and do whatever they
>are told, no matter how existence-threatening.
Once again, you have succeeded in missing my point entirely. I never stated
there was an issue of a Magician not using the full number of services garnered
during the Conjuring Test. I merely pointed out that were a mage to employ the
proverbial "short leash" on his Elementals, within a number of days equal to
the number of services, the debt to the Magician would be considered paid, and
hence, the Elemental would be able to depart.
Also, I question the validity of your statement claiming they are on long
leashes. According to the text, "the elemental is bound and effectively placed
on notice to respond to calls from the mage. The elemental then departs,
through astral space, for parts unknown. There it remains until called to
serve." I feel it a safe assumption that this indicates they have considerably
more latitude in their movements during periods between services than you would
have us believe.
>They should feel grateful for the chance to visit our world: what have they to
>enjoy? They're wrenched from their own plane (or created from the astral,
>take your pick), brought here to serve another, and then, once their services
>are complete, provided the mage doesn't add on more services with another
>ritual, they are sent back whence they came. Gee, sounds wonderful.
You see my arguments with tunnel-vision. Never did I suggest they should be
grateful. Further, you proceed from the singular assumption that they are
somehow "plucked", or wrenched, as you term it, from thier plane of origin.
Although I do not deny the possibility of the validity of this interpretation,
you may have noticed, I have attempted to respond to this issue a bit more
comprehensively, giving reasoning and rationale in regards to to several
possible cases, as opposed to your one.
One such argument is the *possibility* of compliance upon the Spirit's part,
during the act of conjuring. As many have said, Shaman do ask the Spirits for
help, and that has satisfied many that Shamans are not slavers. Why is there
such reticence to accept the chance that a metaphorically similar process may
hold true for Hermetics? Or are you prejudiced against them?
Allies (back to Carter): okay, so some eventually grow to like their master:
not all will: are they to be punished because a few others found a "good"
owner?
>Oh, and being a decker has nothing to do with this discussion. I don't traffic
>in the use of sentient creatures for my own purposes, so my conscience is
>clear.
True. Being a technomancer is besides the point. Conversely, you claimed to
occupy the Moral High Ground. Nightstalker sought to enlighten you as to the
various questionable activities present in your own profession, thereby seeking
to indicate the same level of moral turpitude that you accuse his profession of
possessing.
Regardless, such discourse is quite moot. The contension of who operates from
the position of higher morality will merely detract from the quality of this
discussion, and shall accordingly lower it to the depths of a juvenile fray.
Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc, PhD.
Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark Thought Publications
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
<<<
[ Doctor Doom : jch8169@********.tamu.edu ]
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1993 15:00:23 -0500
Reply-To: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania
Well since its saturday and the list is dead (R.I.P.)
I guess it would be alright to apologize to Rin for making
her so much more work on the Nexus story.
So Rin, this is from Me, to Me, for your benifit.
Ahem.
Me Me Me Me Me......
Humor Focus.
Thwapitty... ------- THWAP! ------- THWAP!
:):):):):):) :):) :):) :):) :):) :):) :):):):) :) :)
:)TTTTTTTTTT :)HH :)HH :)WW :)WW :)AA :)PPPPPPP :) :)
:)TT :)HH :)HH :)WW :)WW :)AAAA :)PP :)PP :) :)
:)TT :)HH:):)HH :)WW :)WW :)AA :)AA :)PP :)PP :) :)
:)TT :)HHHHHHHH :)WW:)WW:)WW :)AA :)AA :)PPPPPPP :) :)
:)TT :)HH :)HH :)WW:)WW:)WW :)AAAAAAAA :)PP :) :)
:)TT :)HH :)HH :)WWWWWWWWWW :)AA :)AA :)PP .. ..
:)TT :)HH :)HH :)WW :)WW :)AA :)AA :)PP \/ \/
One cold slimy dead carp cream pie.
Use wisely. Nightfox and Seraphylanjaligigusnort
AHHHHH much better.
Oooohhhh what a large carp you have!!!!
Hey guess what I had a physical type thingy after fencing (well I won
2 out of 6) and I found out my colesterol (sp) is 163 - not bad for all
the bad stuff I eat. Who needs a superthyroid - high metabolism is enough.
Nightfox
Mutants for a better tomorrow
.
\_/ its a one eyed
smiley face
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Waisley Lglumka@***.grove.iup.edu --------(-- IUP FENCING
SCA - Shire of Robledol, Households - Cryptic Demesne (fencing) + Brotherhood
of Agincourt (archery),
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry for any bad grammer or spelling, etc. My mind works at 637
thoughts per minute, and my hands at 1.2 letters per second
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1993 17:15:36 EST
Reply-To: S90H000 <S90H@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: S90H000 <S90H@******.BITNET>
Subject: any news of vital importance?
Well that was one hell of a snow storm. As you have probably read
about, the U.P. got blasted by 2 feet of snow in 24 hours. Today it's
45 degrees out. Anyway, apparently it somehow fried the mainframe
because it was non-operational for the last two days. If there was
anything really good or important, I would appreciate a copy.
Thanks,
Scott madaski
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1993 16:43:39 -0500
Reply-To: "Dag, Wood." <00MYRICHARDS@*******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: 00myrichards@*******.BITNET
Subject: Voodoo? Whodoo?
Hey, a few people have mention Shadowrun voodoo rules in White Wolf.
What was the issue number on that? And has anyone heard of similar stuff
about some of the world's other magical traditions: Oriental, Austrailian
aboriginal, etc.?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1993 15:53:26 -0600
Reply-To: "I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY...IT'S BETTER TO BURNOUT THEN TO FADE
AWAY" <STU524636420@***.COLORADO.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY...IT'S BETTER TO BURNOUT THEN TO FADE
AWAY" <STU524636420@***.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: Re: game powerlevel
>>>>>[I have recently run through several games where the average weapon
was a panther cannon and the everyoner posesed full-enviromental armor.
One of the most common phrases from the game was "He can't shoot me because
I've got everything coated in that chmelion (big sp) stuff from shadowtech,"
and "OK, my rigger fires all ten ripples of 12.something rockets at the
(that's 12.something cm) patrol 1 cop car," is common, too. Well, needless
to say It got old quick. At present I am trying to start up a scum-of-the-
streets campaign where a person fights in gang wars using knives and is
proud to have a stolen colt america light pistol with half a clip left.
The role-playing should be the attraction, not the firepower. The way things
should be.
PS: did my post about slavery come through? Feed back would be neat.
PSS: This is kindof out of the blue, but; Immagine a hyper-coated carp.
Or maybe a MAO coated carp. Gawd, the possibility.
BurnouT
Russ Hutchison
stu524636420@***.colorado.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1993 23:52:58 -0500
Reply-To: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Metaphysical Maelstrom (rather lengthy...)
Meine Kamaraden:
Well...despite being attacked on all fronts, this topic is a refreshing change
from copyrights and chain letters, nicht wahr?
On my Proposition for the Manipulation of Metaphysical Energies, several points
(this shall take a while, so stop now if not interested)
1) I stated quite clearly that what instigated this idea was a friend's desire
incorporate the Magic Attribute into spell casting such that it possessed a
far more integral role.
Now, many of you like this idea. Others vehemently objected, citing powers
of Initiation, the lower Karma cost of Sorcery skill, protesting the
decrease in Force's influence, et cetera, ad nauseam.
What is being missed is that the ENTIRE PURPOSE of this proposal was to
bestow upon the Magic Rating a far more involved role in wielding magic.
She said to me, "I feel that Initiation should have a far more DIRECT
effect upon spell casting." What you see is the result. The entire
motivational belief is that Initiates are more powerful magic users, and
this power has a far greater bearing upon magic wielding.
Hence, the various arguments put forth that this is system is unnecessary
due to the ability to accentuate spell casting with already existing
Initiatory powers ARE BESIDE THE POINT.
Moreover, I never expressed any contempt for Initiatory powers. Rest
assured that I am quite conscious of their mechanics and existence, and any
suggestions to the contrary are quite baseless.
Now, those of you who feel that Initiates should be more potent accepted my
reasoning. Those of you who do not agree objected, and attempted to attack
my arguments. Both sides may rationalize and interpret the rules to their
desire in an effort to support their conclusions. Therefore, the majority
of the interpretive objections are subjective, as well as any interpretive
defense I offer. Due to each person's various interpretations and
assumptions, it may appear as though I possess ne'er a foot upon which to
stand. Contrariwise, from my viewpoint, the same holds true for those who
disagree.
And as I stated before, if you are fond of the present system, FINE.
However, should one desire to alter the system such that Initiation plays a
more vital role, here is an alternative.
2) The nature of Initiation...
Herr Murray has conjectured that:
> Magic Attribute is not an attunuation of the body to the Astral.
>It is a measure of how much magic you can handle. If the book says
>otherwise I would like to know the page number for reference.
GRIMOIRE II, p. 38
INITIATION
"Through initiation a magician, be he hermetic or shamanic, is awakened
to the greater powers of the higher worlds. Initiation sharpens his
sensitivity to magical energy and purifies his system, allowing him to
handle more power. It gives him the capacity to wield greater magical
ability: metamagic, thus providing him access to the metaplanes of
reality. Magicians who tie their religion and their magic together say it
brings them closer to their god or gods. Are they right? Who can say for
sure?"
Now, if you are going to endeavor to convince me that Initiation involves
something as simple as "more power" plus MetaMagic, I shall accordingly
accuse your definition of being sorrowfully short-sighted.
I feel it not rash to assume that Initiation is a far more profound
experience than you would have us believe. I cannot enumerate upon all the
instances where I have heard Initiation as "bringing one closer to my
totem" or other metaphorically similar statements from the viewpoints of
Hermetics. If anything, the ability to wield greater magics is a side
effect of this process; a process which increases one's affinity with the
Astral, and a heightening of the relationship one has with one's totem or
greater insight into Magic's nature and dynamics (dependent upon tradition
followed.)
3) The semantics of Experience...
> WHOOAA!!! Hang on. Magic Attribute does not equate into
>experience. Experience comes in the way of karma. This is expressed in
>the character with a higher Sorcery skill or Initiation. Magic Attribute
>is a measure of the body's ability to handle magical energies. The body
>can be conditioned to handle more magical energy through Initiation. The
>Magic Attribute is not a measure of experience, but experience can be used
>to allow the body to accept more magical energy: Initiation.
(Ach, Gott, I am actually about to argue semantics...)
You misunderstand.
Magic Attribute can be an *indicator* of Experience. I am well aware of
the fact that Karma is utilized for the elevation of Sorcery skill as well
as in Initiation. I merely strove to differentiate between adroitness or
ability to cast spells and long-term improvement in their relationship with
Magic, as exemplified in the graduation to the higher levels by Initiation.
Perhaps I should have worded it more satisfactorily: Magic Attribute,
which indicates experience in such cases where it (via the accumulation of
Karma) has been elevated due to successful Initiation.
Which brings us to the next topic, namely:
4) What about the magic user that through their experiences has *lost* magic
attribute?
Bluntly? It hurts. As is true under the present system, they garner
disadvantages. True, under my proposal, this tends to generate a more
substantial impact; however, it is merely an example of how something can
be a double-edged sword. It has the potential for more benefits, but
should one lose powers, the adverse effects are more extreme.
5) It should be pointed out that...
This was designed for a campaign with ShadowRun I drain codes. The Game
Master in question is still using First Edition rules, and is quite unfond
of ShadowRun II (ask not why, as I am unable to fathom it myself). She
desired an alternative to the Grimoire I system, but was dissatisfied with
the Grimoire II system, the result being that Nightstalker's suggestion,
although possessive of merit, is NOT a viable option.
Under this system in ShadowRun I, most magicians, in all likelihood, shall
not be utilizing all of their Magic Attribute dice for the spellcasting
test, as they shall still require assistance with the old Deadly-4 drains
codes.
6) A great number of you are reacting as I had anticipated, in that you are
proceeding, or appear as though you are proceeding, from the assumption
that I mean to replace the present system with my proposal. As I
emphasize before, this was a theoretical problem. Actually, upon
completing it and presenting it to the Game Master who requested it (who
was well pleased with my efforts), I had thought to file it away. Then,
another group member urged me to post it.
7) As to the case of Vampires, why should they be more powerful? Why should
this virus affect them thusly?
Why? I know not. Put your inquiries to the writers of folktales and those
who formulated vampiric mythos... Vampires have a reputation of being very
powerful magic users. Now, 'tis true that this could merely be the result
of being extremely experienced and having Initiated several times over;
however, some have gone so far as to imply that beyond the opportunities
several lifetimes afford them, they are *inherently* powerful due to their
vampiric state. My efforts merely have the side-effect of reflect this
reputed potency.
Also, this is NOT to make Player Character Vampires more powerful. They do
not require such things; I am certain all shall agree.
However, even were this instigated by a desire to give more power to
Vampires, due to the supposed innate nature of this power, Herr Murray's
suggestion of simply presenting them with higher Sorcery skills would be an
unsatisfactory solution.
8) Murray, as well as others, have astutely observed that Force has less of
an impact.
Correct. It is only natural that when one proposes to alter a closed
system, or incorporate a new aspect or element into a confined apparatus,
another element shall suffer. This is the natural order of things.
Something must "give", so to speak. I have endeavored to perform this such
that no one aspect is completely eliminated. This is true of Force in my
system. Yes, it has been relegated to something only slightly better than
Weapon Force in ranged combat. However, I feel this is an equitable
solution.
I DO admit that in the case of unresisted spells (Detection, Illusion, and
Health) it could be raised to the heights of lunacy. Possibly an addendum
to the earlier mechanics can be formulated for such cases. I shall have to
think on't. In line with that, for any who wish to add their own thoughts,
WITHIN the qualifiers stated, to these possible flaws/problems/loopholes, I
would very much value such input. It is my wish that this should operate
as free of errors as feasible.
Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc, PhD.
Thaumaturgical Advisor:
Darkwatch, Doctor of Metaphysics
Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark Thought Publications
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
<<<
[ Doctor Doom : jch8169@********.tamu.edu ]
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 10:06:20 -0500
Reply-To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Copyrights & Cyberthwaps
In-Reply-To: (null)
Ok, regarding the Dikoted CyberCarp {tm}.
Let's take a look at this.
DIKOTE: this is a FASA thing, first seen in ShadowTech sometime last year
The 'Thwapping' Wet Carp: Hmm, I was the one that first proposed this
back in October of last year I think after a nasty mail hiccup that sent
two or three copies of like 10 postings to everyone subscribed (remember
that?).
So the question is: You used two things designed by someone else and
combined them. Did you "violate" anyone's copyrights? Could you be sued
for billions of dollars?
Does anyone really care? :-)
----
What does this have to do with anything? Not a damn thing.
[> Robert Hayden ____ <] Black Holes result from God
[> \ /__ <] dividing the universe by zero.
[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ / <]
[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ <] # include std_disclaimer.h
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 15:26:51 EDT
Reply-To: Robert Link <link@*****.PHYSICS.FSU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Robert Link <link@*****.PHYSICS.FSU.EDU>
>
> What is being missed is that the ENTIRE PURPOSE of this proposal was to
> bestow upon the Magic Rating a far more involved role in wielding magic.
>
> She said to me, "I feel that Initiation should have a far more DIRECT
> effect upon spell casting." What you see is the result. The entire
> motivational belief is that Initiates are more powerful magic users, and
> this power has a far greater bearing upon magic wielding.
> [. . .]
>
> What about the magic user that through their experiences has *lost* magic
> attribute?
>
> Bluntly? It hurts. As is true under the present system, they garner
> disadvantages. True, under my proposal, this tends to generate a more
> substantial impact; however, it is merely an example of how something can
> be a double-edged sword. It has the potential for more benefits, but
> should one lose powers, the adverse effects are more extreme.
>
What I haven't seen anyone mention yet is that in SRII (don't know about
SRI) a mage's magic attribute serves as a cap on the number of dice that
he can add from his magic pool to his casting test. Thus, our combat mage
with sorcery 6 could only add 5 of those dice to his casting tests (the other
one always had to go to repulse drain.) Thus, loss of magic attribute already
has a substantial impact.
Really, the only place I can see a need for an increased effect from the
magic attribute is in the case of conjuring, where, as has been mentioned, it
appears to have little if any effect at all. I can appreciate the position
that the experience gained from initiation should have a profound effect on
one's ability as a spellcaster, I think the fact that (in our campaign, at
least) players are willing to spend the comparatively large amounts of karma
to initiate indicates that initiation brings a worthwhile increase in ability.
Likewise, the fact that (again, in our campaign) mages find it worth their
while to by and large forego the benefits of cyber/bio-ware indicates that
the penalties for losing magic attribute are substantial enough that players
aren't willing to barter away magic points.
-rpl
"No one holds command over me. No man. No god. No Prince.
What is a claim of age for ones who are immortal? What is a
claim of power for ones who defy death? Call your damnable
hunt. We shall see whom I drag screaming to hell with me."
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 14:52:32 -0700
Reply-To: HUTH@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Steve Huth <HUTH@***.EDU>
Subject: R.I.P.--game lethality
I'm posting this note to this net rather than Shadowtk because it follows
up on the lethality of UPS games comment by Carter and Hahn (got met
shaking in my boots/I wasn't shaking, I was hiding in the bathroom), and,
some of the characters involved are also on Shadowtk and involved in story
lines there.
Well, the 7 members of the current B-Team got in the fight of their lives
last night against a Toxic initiate and a copy of my old character
Spectre (I've always wanted to see what would happen if he met his old
teammates). Results, bad guys dead. B-Team: Raven the Mage: permanent
organ damage, in hospital for two months; Jaez: hurt to within an inch
(literally) of her life (bod rating 1 point lower and it would have been
bye bye Jaez); Highlander and Whisper: 9 out of ten boxes filled; Lucky
and Blindside: relatively unscathed; Eclipse: dead.
Eclipse's death is more than a bit ironic: he was my own character. Ed
normally GM's, but I took over for this run, decided they needed the
firepower and skills of my burglar, and let them run him. No complaints, he
just got caught in a bad situation. At least no one will say I'm a biased
GM. Hell, I think I'm writing this just to say goodbye.
From a GM's point of view I can at least be pleased that this party, which
usually runs over the opposition pretty easily when it comes to a fight,
had their eyes opened to the fact that theya ren't the be all and end all of
SR. They took out both the bad guys with that bloody *&&^%&^% Yamaha Pulsar,
and killed them while they were incapacitated (note to the players: Ed and I
have downgraded the power of the Pulsar, effective immediately). Other than
that, Marta and Skyeagle were unhurt, despite the fact that the players
sprung an ambush! Anyway, combined hospital time for the party is about
6 months. No funeral for Eclipse--the party rather thoroughly destroyed
all evidence of their presence (they send 6 rockets onto the site, which
also was full of propane gas for ballooning--BOOM!)-they couldn't carry
a dead body with them on their escape, so what was left of Eclipse was
incinerated. R.I.P. friend.
Spectre
Steve Huth
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 17:37:23 -0400
Reply-To: "Like, dude, where's the firefight?"
<MURRAYMD@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Like, dude, where's the firefight?"
<MURRAYMD@******.BITNET>
Subject: Reply to Doom's reply of my reply to Doom's post. Got it?
>Meine Kamaraden:
>Well...despite being attacked on all fronts, this topic is a refreshing change
>from copyrights and chain letters, nicht wahr?
Ja, es ist sehr gut!
>On my Proposition for the Manipulation of Metaphysical Energies, several points
>(this shall take a while, so stop now if not interested)
And this reply copies a lot of your post. For those who are not
interested you might want to delete this one. This is gonna take a
while...
>1) I stated quite clearly that what instigated this idea was a friend's desire
> incorporate the Magic Attribute into spell casting such that it possessed a
> far more integral role.
The identity of the person responsible for the idea is not all that
important (unless you are trying to transfer blame or something) for you are
the person who came up with the system changes. To the person who wanted
to make the magic attribute have more of an impact I would have to ask:
"Why?" I thought that the role of the magic attribute was good enough.
The only result I could see from Herr Doktors system was making newbie
magic users more powerful since the force of the spell was effectively
replaced by the magic attribute. This makes the already out-of-whack SR1
magic system even more favorable to magic users.
> Now, many of you like this idea. Others vehemently objected, citing powers
> of Initiation, the lower Karma cost of Sorcery skill, protesting the
> decrease in Force's influence, et cetera, ad nauseam.
Sorry to step on your little toesies Dok. I thought that I saw in
your message something to the effect that you welcomed commentary and I
gave as much as I thought the post warranted.
> What is being missed is that the ENTIRE PURPOSE of this proposal was to
> bestow upon the Magic Rating a far more involved role in wielding magic.
Which you did admirably. I just questioned the need for doing this
and the unbalancing effects of such a venture. I didn't miss the purpose,
nor did I miss the flaws that I saw...
> She said to me, "I feel that Initiation should have a far more DIRECT
> effect upon spell casting." What you see is the result. The entire
> motivational belief is that Initiates are more powerful magic users, and
> this power has a far greater bearing upon magic wielding.
I would be interested in hearing the rationalization behind this
desire to have Initiates be more powerful magic users. Nevermind the fact
that magic users are too powerful in SR1, but Initiates can make themselves
more powerful through the use of the Initiate skill Centering. Any more
direct and one would have to have the grade number affect the casting.
> Hence, the various arguments put forth that this is system is unnecessary
> due to the ability to accentuate spell casting with already existing
> Initiatory powers ARE BESIDE THE POINT.
Thank you for that nice leap of logic. No, the various arguments
are not beside the point since through the use of the already existing
Initiate rules (Centering) Initiates are already more powerful magic users
than non-Initiates.
> Moreover, I never expressed any contempt for Initiatory powers. Rest
> assured that I am quite conscious of their mechanics and existence, and any
> suggestions to the contrary are quite baseless.
Sorry to make the assumption, but based upon what I saw I assumed
that not much attention had been paid to the various powers of the
Initiate.
> Now, those of you who feel that Initiates should be more potent accepted my
> reasoning. Those of you who do not agree objected, and attempted to attack
> my arguments. Both sides may rationalize and interpret the rules to their
> desire in an effort to support their conclusions. Therefore, the majority
> of the interpretive objections are subjective, as well as any interpretive
> defense I offer. Due to each person's various interpretations and
> assumptions, it may appear as though I possess ne'er a foot upon which to
> stand. Contrariwise, from my viewpoint, the same holds true for those who
> disagree.
I like to think that I actually did attack your arguments instead
of attempting an attack. Not only did I attack your reasonings but I also
question the need to make Initiates more potent.
> And as I stated before, if you are fond of the present system, FINE.
> However, should one desire to alter the system such that Initiation plays a
> more vital role, here is an alternative.
>2) The nature of Initiation...
> Herr Murray has conjectured that:
>> Magic Attribute is not an attunuation of the body to the Astral.
>>It is a measure of how much magic you can handle. If the book says
>>otherwise I would like to know the page number for reference.
> GRIMOIRE II, p. 38
> INITIATION
> "Through initiation a magician, be he hermetic or shamanic, is awakened
> to the greater powers of the higher worlds. Initiation sharpens his
> sensitivity to magical energy and purifies his system, allowing him to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> handle more power. It gives him the capacity to wield greater magical
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> ability: metamagic, thus providing him access to the metaplanes of
> reality. Magicians who tie their religion and their magic together say it
> brings them closer to their god or gods. Are they right? Who can say for
> sure?"
Thank you for the definition, I did not have my Goomore handy at
the time. I believe that the above definition with the appropriate section
underlined shows that my "conjecture" is more than just that. As presented
by the rules of the game that is what I take Initiation to be. No more, no
less.
> Now, if you are going to endeavor to convince me that Initiation involves
> something as simple as "more power" plus MetaMagic, I shall accordingly
> accuse your definition of being sorrowfully short-sighted.
I think that either:
A) You should accuse the rulebook definition as sorrowfully
short sighted since that is what I take as my definition.
or
B) You should not put too much into what you read.
> I feel it not rash to assume that Initiation is a far more profound
> experience than you would have us believe. I cannot enumerate upon all the
> instances where I have heard Initiation as "bringing one closer to my
> totem" or other metaphorically similar statements from the viewpoints of
> Hermetics. If anything, the ability to wield greater magics is a side
> effect of this process; a process which increases one's affinity with the
> Astral, and a heightening of the relationship one has with one's totem or
> greater insight into Magic's nature and dynamics (dependent upon tradition
> followed.)
Well, this profoundness is all nice and good for role-play, but does
not do a thing for the rules. The "heightening of the relationship one has
with one's totem or greater insight into Magic's nature and dynamics" is
expressed in the rules via the metamagics. When the book says: "Initiation
sharpens his sensitivity to magical energy and purifies his system, allowing
him to handle more power," the rules are expressing this as raising the
Magic Attribute. Your phrase of "a process which increases one's affinity
with the astral..." is expressed I believe in game terms as the Initiate
ability to go to the Meta-Planes in Astral Space. I have yet to see where
the non-game-term description of Initiation has anyplace that gives you
licence to increase the capabilities of the Initiate.
>3) The semantics of Experience...
>> WHOOAA!!! Hang on. Magic Attribute does not equate into
>>experience. Experience comes in the way of karma. This is expressed in
>>the character with a higher Sorcery skill or Initiation. Magic Attribute
>>is a measure of the body's ability to handle magical energies. The body
>>can be conditioned to handle more magical energy through Initiation. The
>>Magic Attribute is not a measure of experience, but experience can be used
>>to allow the body to accept more magical energy: Initiation.
>(Ach, Gott, I am actually about to argue semantics...)
You have to watch your semantics very carefully in a discussion
such as this, especially considering that the only thing that I see is what
you type. I do not see your facial expressions or hear the pitch in your
voice. I see only what you type in and what netiquette expressions that
accompany such.
> You misunderstand.
> Magic Attribute can be an *indicator* of Experience. I am well aware of
> the fact that Karma is utilized for the elevation of Sorcery skill as well
> as in Initiation. I merely strove to differentiate between adroitness or
> ability to cast spells and long-term improvement in their relationship with
> Magic, as exemplified in the graduation to the higher levels by Initiation.
> Perhaps I should have worded it more satisfactorily: Magic Attribute,
> which indicates experience in such cases where it (via the accumulation of
> Karma) has been elevated due to successful Initiation.
I would think that magic attribute is a very poor indicator of
experience. Not every magic user dumps karma into Initiation from day one
(and if they do I would suggest against it). Assuming that the magic user
dumps all their karma into Initiation your indicator can become very off
due to losses in magic attribute (deadly wounds, hospital visits, etc.).
The magic attribute can range quite wildly over the long run, dependent on
rate of Initiation and lethality of lifestyle.
[ ... ]
>5) It should be pointed out that...
> This was designed for a campaign with ShadowRun I drain codes. The Game
> Master in question is still using First Edition rules, and is quite unfond
> of ShadowRun II (ask not why, as I am unable to fathom it myself). She
> desired an alternative to the Grimoire I system, but was dissatisfied with
> the Grimoire II system, the result being that Nightstalker's suggestion,
> although possessive of merit, is NOT a viable option.
And people still play in the game? Oh dear... :)
> Under this system in ShadowRun I, most magicians, in all likelihood, shall
> not be utilizing all of their Magic Attribute dice for the spellcasting
> test, as they shall still require assistance with the old Deadly-4 drains
> codes.
That has the sound that D4 drains are common. How many folks are
throwing around Hellblast and Acidball spells as if it were common duty?
I'm almost tempted to pull out the M word for that! If Initiation is not
good enough for this group it is a problem in the "feel" of the world
instead of the rules.
>6) A great number of you are reacting as I had anticipated, in that you are
> proceeding, or appear as though you are proceeding, from the assumption
> that I mean to replace the present system with my proposal. As I
> emphasize before, this was a theoretical problem. Actually, upon
> completing it and presenting it to the Game Master who requested it (who
> was well pleased with my efforts), I had thought to file it away. Then,
> another group member urged me to post it.
The problem is that your disclaimer at the end of your post was
insufficient to keep the folks from biting at your heels. (Yipe! Yipe!
Yipe! Yipe!)
[ ... ]
>8) Murray, as well as others, have astutely observed that Force has less of
> an impact.
> Correct. It is only natural that when one proposes to alter a closed
> system, or incorporate a new aspect or element into a confined apparatus,
> another element shall suffer. This is the natural order of things.
> Something must "give", so to speak. I have endeavored to perform this
such
> that no one aspect is completely eliminated. This is true of Force in my
> system. Yes, it has been relegated to something only slightly better than
> Weapon Force in ranged combat. However, I feel this is an equitable
> solution.
I wouldn't want the effects of the force of a spell reduced in the
mechanics of my games, but that is only a personal viewpoint. I was happy
to see that you had not totally disregarded the effects of the force of the
spell.
> I DO admit that in the case of unresisted spells (Detection, Illusion, and
> Health) it could be raised to the heights of lunacy. Possibly an addendum
> to the earlier mechanics can be formulated for such cases. I shall have to
> think on't. In line with that, for any who wish to add their own thoughts,
> WITHIN the qualifiers stated, to these possible flaws/problems/loopholes, I
> would very much value such input. It is my wish that this should operate
> as free of errors as feasible.
Good luck! No solutions came to mind when I was looking over your
suggestion. Maybe someone who still plays SRI can help.
> Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc, PhD.
>
> Thaumaturgical Advisor:
>
> Darkwatch, Doctor of Metaphysics
>
> Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark Thought Publications
> >>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
<<<
> [ Doctor Doom : jch8169@********.tamu.edu ]
Friends don't let friends play SR1... :)
*************************************************************************
* What should I do today? | Matt Murray at the University of Dayton *
*1) Carpet Bomb the Vatican? | MURRAYMD@******.BITNET *
*2) Club a baby seal? | MURRAYMD@******.OCA.UDAYTON.EDU *
*3) Have a beer? Beer! | "Like, dude, where's the firefight?" *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Star Fleet Battles Battletech Shadowrun Space Marine AD&D *
*************************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 15:22:02 -0700
Reply-To: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Jeremy Roberson <ROBERSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Physads and Gridlink
I have a question and an idea to post:
1) If a Physical Adept is assensing and has his weapon focus out, and
with resisting it? How about if he has a held action or has an action
that phase? I'm just wondering because I'm making an adept and I'm a
little fuzzy on what requires projection and what requires only
assensing.
2) Traffic Control in 2054: Let me preface this by saying I do NOT believe
this is how GridLink works in Shadorun, but I had this idea while
walking home and picture the evolution of high-speed chase procedures
over the neft 60+ years.
Premise: In the future, traffic will be so congested that some cities
may institute laws requiring all vehicles (with some exceptions) to tie in
to
a master traffic control grid. This could be accomplished via
something similar to cellular link or radio transimissions; the data
wouldn't be complex as full-fledge Matrix iconography. It's a dedicated
system that does nothing but traffic control. Anyway, this means several
things
1) High-speed chases may not happen, since they're all
controlled by the master computer.
2) Pulling people over becomes much easier. The cops
2) Pulling people over becomes much easier as the cops simply
radio in the ID number of the vehicle and Central Control
pulls them over at leisure.
I'm being vague about this concept, since I'm still mulling over its
implications and deciding what I'll do with it. Any comments or other ideas?
PS: Sorry about the screwy text; the mailer burped.
J Roberson
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 15:39:43 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Nay, Ed, try again.
Comments on Highlander's Post:
>>Whoa: I'm engaged in a full-fledged rebuttal (and subject heading) war, when
>>I'm blindsided by the sudden appearance of Doctor Doom. Ugh, my head. But I
>>won't let them stop me: I'm fighting for the freedom of spirits everywhere! :>
Doom, didn't blindside you. He just waited for the proper moment to blast
your pitful arguments into ash. Obviously he failed since your back again.
>>I'm going to dismiss Carter's statements that my statements are pure
>>speculation, since he has very little actual proof to refute me with (of
>>course, I have very little to back my claim up with, so we're even).
I'm disappointed in you Ed. After I at least had the commmon courtesy to
blast your speculation with pieces of evidence that is contrary to it, you wimp
out and just dismiss mine with a wave of the hand. Usually people ignore things
like those because they can not refute them.
>>I will take the time to speak out against Doctor Doom's allegations that
>>elementals aren't treated as slaves. You make many good points, Doctor, but
>>I have to disagree with your definitions: I may go so far as to say that
>>elementals are treated as freer slaves than has been recorded in history, but
>>they are still bound to another's will.
Ironic that you used the term "freer slaves", that's an oxymoron!
>>You said that magicians don't have to use all of the services: so? Most
>>usually do: I have yet to see any mage who hasn't gotten their money's worth
>>from the spirit they've summoned.
Never in the history of the world has a slave ever had a limited number of
services allocated to it. To be a slave would mean lifelong servitude. The
spirit only has a limited time of servitude, thus it could not possible be
slavery.
>>They are "free" to roam around when the magician doesn't need them: so
they
>>have a long leash: they still have to answer when called, and do whatever they
>>are told, no matter how existence-threatening.
Oh, shit! There goes the draft and the military. If making someone serve in
the Army is slavery than were all in trouble. To imagine being sent by your
country (The USA) into an existence-threatning situation (Veitnam, WWI or WWII
Europe, the Pesian Gulf). You'll have to come up with something better than
this Ed. We do the exact same thing to citzens of our own country.
>>They should feel grateful for the chance to visit our world: what have they to
>>enjoy? They're wrenched from their own plane (or created from the astral,
>>take your pick), brought here to serve another, and then, once their services
>>are complete, provided the mage doesn't add on more services with another
>>ritual, they are sent back whence they came. Gee, sounds wonderful.
Interesting paragraph Ed. Only two problems with it. Number one is that it's
drenched with your preconception that they are enslaved. The second is that
your thinking like a human. You have now idea as to whether they would enjoy
doing these things that are listed, you only know that you wouldn't.
>>Allies (back to Carter): okay, so some eventually grow to like their master:
>>not all will: are they to be punished because a few others found a
"good"
>>owner?
As someone BurnOut so artfully pointed out allies are "companions or slaves".
Depends on the mage who summons him and how he treats them. Just because some
could be classified as slaves doesn't mean they all are.
>>Oh, and being a decker has nothing to do with this discussion. I don't
>>traffic in the use of sentient creatures for my own purposes, so my
>>conscience is clear. Is yours, Jason? You steal too, or do you not remember
>>that mage's house you guys raided?
What does your being a decker have to do with this? Everything when you try
to use it as a source of solice. He who lives in a glass house should not throw
stones.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 15:40:07 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spirit Policlub
Comments on Burnouts Post:
>>Incidently, p.76 of the Grimoire II states in the section under FREE SPIRITS
>>that a free spirit is "a non-player character with free will, its own goals
>>and tastes, and everything eles that makes a character unique." This would
>>seem to imply that knowing or activly reaserching a free spirits true name
>>is an attempt to force it into servitude, ie. slavery.
Researching a Free Spirits True Name would not be illegal or even immoral.
Using this True Name to do anything besides defending yourself would count as
either slavery or blackmail, depending on what you did. However this would be
on a moral level since Free Spirits have no rights.
>>Also on page 64 of the same grimthingie it is stated that "Spirits swim in
the
>>energies of magic like dolphins--or sharks--in the bosom of the ocean.
>>Conjuring Skill unlocks the gates between the planes to admit spirits to the
>>physical plane." Sounds to me like the spirit is there before a mage chains.
>>ah, er, binds it to him. In the next paragraph allies are called "companions
>>or a slave." Kind of makes you wonder when the great socitey of the 2050's
>>should raise its head and say "Alright, because some people abuse their power
>>over these beings we are going to have to outlaw binding of spirits. We
>>appoligize to the mages who are not like slavers but we have to draw a line."
While the swimming part might indicate existance before summoning, it still
doesn't indicate intelligence. The question of Free Spirits and True Names gets
in the way. So their astral dolphins. Their not intelligent so you can do
whatever you want (note that this is retrocial, I thinkg dolphins are smart).
As for society deciding to end summoning, don't bet on it. The corporations,
nations, and mages get too much out of them for some wishie-washie policlub with
no proof to get rid of their elementals.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 17:42:43 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Metaphysical Maelstrom
Doctor Doom:
1) I stated quite clearly that what instigated this idea was a friend's desire
incorporate the Magic Attribute into spell casting such that it possessed a
far more integral role.
The Magic Attribute does the following in SRII spell casting:
1) Determines the Maximum number of Magic Pool Dice that can be added to the
Magic Success Test.
2) Is used to determine the Range of a Limited Range Spell.
3) Determines the Max Force of spell that can be cast without taking Physcial
Drain.
4) Determines the area of an Area Effect spell.
5) Is the base time a Sustained Ritual Sorcery Spell is sustained.
How much more must the Magic Attribute do to be an integral part of spell
casting?
2) The nature of Initiation...
In SRI, initiate shamans do come closer to their Totems. Their Totem Dice are
increased by their Grade. This is initiation affecting their spell tossing
ability directly. Maybe your GM should do something similar for Hermetic mages
and those silly Coyote Shamans. That will make Initiation affect spellcasting
directly without a whole new set of Magic rules.
3) The semantics of Experience...
Doctor, the Magic Attribute is a horrible thing to equate as experience. It
inicates the strength of you bond to the astral plane, not how much skill you
have. Skill is the measure of experience. In the case of magic, Sorcery is the
skill that tells how much experience. Given two mages with Magic 6, how do you
tell which is more experienced? Look at their Sorcery skill ratings.
The very fact that you can lose Magic Attribute points tells you it cannot be
experience. You don't loose experience, it stays with you always. Thus
anywhere in your equations were you put the Magic Attribute to show the effect
of Experience you should be putting Sorcery Skill.
5) It should be pointed out that...
Although I can understands your GM's disliking of SRII in general, the
changes to Magic in SRII are excellent IMHO. But if your using SRI magic and
Grimoire, than resisting D3 drains codes is easy for a high grade initiate.
Take your centering skill (still the Number 1 best reason it initiate) and
resist drain with them. The target number is only the force of the spell minus
your grade. How hard can that be?
7) As to the case of Vampires, why should they be more powerful? Why should
this virus affect them thusly?
Actually, Vampires are more powerful in magic than normal people. First of
all to qoute the Vampire entry in SRII:
Magic Capability: Latent. Active Magic is much commoner in humans infected
with the virus than among the uninfected. It is unknown whether this is due to
side effects of the virus or perferential selection of magic-capable
individuals by its carriers.
Vampires absorb the life essence of their victims. With their prolonged life
span, they have the potential to become powerful magicians. It seems likely
that legends of vampiric powers are based on the magical prowess of individual
vampires.
I'll take the first hypotheses as to why they are more likely to use magic.
On the question as to why vampires have been written as powerful magicians,
everybody who could use magic before the Awakening seemed to be a powerful
magicains reguardless of how strong he really was.
Also if a vampire has an essence of 10, much higher than any human will have,
then his Magic Attribute is 10. Can we say Force 10 Manabolt? Thirdly they
regenerate any drain damage they take. Can we say I don't give a damn about
drain? Can we see why vampires are powerful Magicians?
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 20:50:00 EDT
Reply-To: Blaidd mab Ceryddwen <MHILLIARD@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Blaidd mab Ceryddwen <MHILLIARD@******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Nay, Ed, try again.
Nightstalker lays about with the ol' Ares flamethrower
Gosh, posting again. This is habit-forming.
Just a thought, O paragons of Shadow-hood, but what are you trying to prove?
Certainly not your facility with logic. However hard you strive to establish
some kind of "official" ruling on the subject of conjuring and slavery (or
anything else, for that matter), any GM who disagrees is going to chuck it out
the window anyway, so why bother? Instead of arguing uselessly bacl and forth,
let each GM get together with his players and resolve the issue for themselves.
Which is what's going to happen anyway. If GM "A" and his players says that
spirits exist on their own, who is GM "B" to say otherwise?
So why post ideas like that at all? In spite of the unconsious assumptions of
most of the people on this listserve, it's not to seek everyone else's
approval. It's also not to garner a barrage of flames in return-though that's a
common side-effect. Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I do it to share
my ideas and opinions with others on SHADOWRN who might be interested in them.
Ed's ideas on spirit slavery were thought-provoking, interesting, and I plan
to work them into my campaign, if I ever get one going again. Pending of course
input from the players in that campiagn.
I was going to add my opinions on the slavery issue itself at this point, but
I think I'll save it for later.
Phelan
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 18:04:34 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Phelan's Slave Comments (Hi :) )
>> Nightstalker lays about with the ol' Ares flamethrower
I didn't flame him. I just smashed his arguments with tons of logic. It's
a debate. That's what you do in a debate.
>> Gosh, posting again. This is habit-forming.
Sory If we ruined your day.
>> Just a thought, O paragons of Shadow-hood, but what are you trying to prove?
That we can dazzle each other with our debating skills :)
>>Certainly not your facility with logic. However hard you strive to establish
>>some kind of "official" ruling on the subject of conjuring and slavery
(or
>>anything else, for that matter), any GM who disagrees is going to chuck it out
>>the window anyway, so why bother? Instead of arguing uselessly bacl and forth,
>>let each GM get together with his players and resolve the issue for
>>themselves. Which is what's going to happen anyway. If GM "A" and his
>>players says that spirits exist on their own, who is GM "B" to say
otherwise?
Who ever said we were looking for an official ruling?
>> So why post ideas like that at all? In spite of the unconsious assumptions of
>>most of the people on this listserve, it's not to seek everyone else's
>>approval. It's also not to garner a barrage of flames in return-though that's
>>a common side-effect. Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I do it to
>>share my ideas and opinions with others on SHADOWRN who might be interested
>>in them. Ed's ideas on spirit slavery were thought-provoking, interesting,
>>and I plan to work them into my campaign, if I ever get one going again.
>>Pending of course input from the players in that campiagn.
If you think those were flames than you don't know what a flame is! As for
why am I posting on this question? Batting Ed around is fun and I'm not about
to let anyone tell me my mage is a slaver.
>> I was going to add my opinions on the slavery issue itself at this point, but
>>I think I'll save it for later.
Please do. We'll be waiting.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 20:12:23 -0500
Reply-To: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: More on Mr. Ed (willllllbuuurrrrr!)
(sorry, Highlander... couldn't resist)
>However hard you strive to establish some kind of "official" ruling on the
>subject of conjuring and slavery (or anything else, for that matter), any GM
>who disagrees is going to chuck it out the window anyway, so why bother?
Or we can take the other side of the issue. Why even bother HAVING discussions
on ANYTHING? We could shut down this list, save the Leerless Feeder some work,
and save our disk quotas. If you're going to say "they'll do whatever they feel
like anyway", that's your prerogative. Personally, I think that a lot has come
up. Decisions are made based on facts and information. If a certain post is not
discussed, this lowers the amount of information available for any GM. To
paraphrase my Management prof... "nobody wins if the information to make an
informed judgement doesn't exist".
>Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I do it to share
>my ideas and opinions with others on SHADOWRN who might be interested in them.
Right. OPINIONS. This ain't a flame, btw... I just think that things like this
are HIGHLY opinionated, and impassioned discussions can only make the
"transaction costs" more bearable and efficient. You have your opinions, other
people have theirs. The idea is to take the opinions, BRING UP AS MUCH INFO AS
POSSIBLE, and then (if no concensus is reached) let the individual GM's decide.
I personally think that they are not slaves, all semantics aside. But that's my
opinion. (IMHO and all that jazz) If I can be proven wrong due to contrary
information in the books, we all win.
Reverend
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 20:33:38 -0500
Reply-To: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: YAR (yet another reply of reply of reply of reply...)
>Well...despite being attacked on all fronts, this topic is a refreshing change
>from copyrights and chain letters, nicht wahr?
*grin*
> And this reply copies a lot of your post. For those who are not
>interested you might want to delete this one. This is gonna take a
>while...
Ditto that.
> The identity of the person responsible for the idea is not all that
>important (unless you are trying to transfer blame or something) for you are
>the person who came up with the system changes.
Whoa. Hang on a sec. THAT'S NOT THE POINT! Doom was asked to do something
specific. He obliged. He had virtually no latitude. Our GM fully knows the
advantages & disadvantages of the current system, of initiates, and Grimoire2.
She wanted something different. It's not a matter of shifting the blame, it's a
matter of WHY he did what he did.
>To the person who wanted to make the magic attribute have more of an
>impact I would have to ask: "Why?"
I wish I knew. However, that's not my concern. The thing is: Doom was asked to
make the system, and he did so. It does what our GM wants. I suggested that
Herr Doom post it, in case someone else liked it. I would like to see things
changed on it, as opposed to a "well, I don't like it! So there!" that seems to
have been so damn prevalent as of late.
>I thought that the role of the magic attribute was good enough.
Our GM doesn't.
>This makes the already out-of-whack SR1
>magic system even more favorable to magic users.
We'll see. I personally don't think so. BUT, we'll see.
> Sorry to step on your little toesies Dok.
Murray, that's unbecoming. The last thing we need is juvenile behavior on this
list. I'm not defending Doom, but what I see as an unwarranted attack and
adolescent behavior.
> What is being missed is that the ENTIRE PURPOSE of this proposal was to
> bestow upon the Magic Rating a far more involved role in wielding magic.
> Which you did admirably. I just questioned the need for doing this
>and the unbalancing effects of such a venture. I didn't miss the purpose,
>nor did I miss the flaws that I saw...
Good. Yet again, you really didn't say that (not that I saw). Instead, you
talked about how there was no need. That's up to our GM. Doom (yet again) had
no say in the matter.
> I would be interested in hearing the rationalization behind this
>desire to have Initiates be more powerful magic users.
I'm curious too. A couple of the responses, BTW, ARE being sent to her so that
she can get More Information on the subject.
>Any more direct and one would have to have the grade number affect the casting.
That is essentially what was done, in order to make that system.
> Thank you for that nice leap of logic.
Yet again (I feel like I'm beating a dead horse), Doom didn't have any say in
the matter. She wanted a system, and asked him to do it.
> I like to think that I actually did attack your arguments instead
>of attempting an attack. Not only did I attack your reasonings but I also
>question the need to make Initiates more potent.
That seems to be the problem. I would like to see changes that would help the
system, as per the guidelines.
> "Through initiation a magician, be he hermetic or shamanic, is awakened
> to the greater powers of the higher worlds. Initiation sharpens his
> sensitivity to magical energy and purifies his system, allowing him to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> handle more power. It gives him the capacity to wield greater magical
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Thank you for the definition, I did not have my Goomore handy at
>the time. I believe that the above definition with the appropriate section
>underlined shows that my "conjecture" is more than just that. As presented
>by the rules of the game that is what I take Initiation to be. No more, no
>less.
A whole lot more, actually. You are both right in this instance, except that
there is more involved to initiation that just handling more power. IMHO, but
that's pretty much what the book implies
> I think that either:
> A) You should accuse the rulebook definition as sorrowfully
>short sighted since that is what I take as my definition.
The book implies that it is more than just rules. It also includes
role-playing.
> I would think that magic attribute is a very poor indicator of
>experience.
It's not the best, nor the only indicator, but it is one.
> That has the sound that D4 drains are common. How many folks are
>throwing around Hellblast and Acidball spells as if it were common duty?
>I'm almost tempted to pull out the M word for that!
A difference exists between Munchkin and High-Powered. Our group is EXTREMELY
high powered. Not only karma/money, but in lethality, et al.
> I wouldn't want the effects of the force of a spell reduced in the
>mechanics of my games, but that is only a personal viewpoint. I was happy
>to see that you had not totally disregarded the effects of the force of the
>spell.
Okay. How would YOU recommend changing it, with the restrictions?
Rev
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 21:39:00 EDT
Reply-To: Blaidd mab Ceryddwen <MHILLIARD@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Blaidd mab Ceryddwen <MHILLIARD@******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Phelan's Slave Comments (Hi :) )
<And you don't know what logic is> <=- A flame.
A Flame, I believe, is any form of unconstructive criticism. I believe that
your response qualifies, even though it attempts to make a point.
Don't feel bad, though. You didn't ruin my day. I'm actually enjoying this.
(BTW: It's spelled 'sorry') :)
Why bother with the list at all, Rev? Thought I covered that. Though not as
much as I'd wished. These discussions do serve a purpose. Establishing a
de-facto "this-is-the-way-it-is" ruling on spiritual slavery isn't it. And it
is (IMHO) the thrust ofr most of the posts on the subject. Perhaps saying
"I think" instead of "they are" or "it is" would help clear
up any confusion.
BTW: Leerless Feeder? Cute. I like that. Is it copywritten, or can I use that
later?
Back to the subject at hand. I've participated in debates before, and this
don't count. I'll elaborate in a sec, but I want to check the post that was
just added first.
Phelan
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 21:53:00 EDT
Reply-To: Blaidd mab Ceryddwen <MHILLIARD@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Blaidd mab Ceryddwen <MHILLIARD@******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: More on Mr. Ed (willllllbuuurrrrr!)
Never mind. Where was I?
Ah, debating. The Rev said that the point is to bring up as many opinions as
possible and chew on them. Perhaps my complaint is to the zeal with which the
practise is persued. What are we left with but bad feelings and hamburger?
I believe the phrase 'beating a dead horse' applies, not to the issue as whole,
but to specific points within it. For example "A" says 'I think "P1"
(P for
premise). "B" says, 'I disagree. I think "P2", and here's why'. That's
it!
There both done, unless "P2" contains an actual fault which "A" might
comment
upon. Restating "P1" doesn't count.
Gee, I'm never gonna get to the issue itself at this rate.
Phelan
will be back after these messages by his sponsor...
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 22:17:15 EST
Reply-To: X52K000 <X52K@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: X52K000 <X52K@******.BITNET>
Subject: HELP!!!!!
Greetings,
Sorry about the bandwidth but I MUST get off this list ASAP and
the "SIGNOFF SHADOWRN" command to the HEARN address isn't working.
If I'm not off by summer vacation (which is almost here) my e-mail box
will chrash and I'll run the very real risk of losing my access to
e-mail on campus for good. So PLEASE if anyone can help me I would
truly be greatful.
An ally in eternal darkness,
Jeff Carey
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 21:26:52 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: I've been Flamed!!!!!!!! NOT!!!!!!!
<And you don't know what logic is> <=- A flame.
Oh my god! I've been flamed! Or was that a match? It didn't hurt much.
Personally I think it takes a little more than unconstructive criticism to
constitue a Flame.
Taking Doctor Doom's Metaphysical Manipulation as an example, unconstructive
criticism would be to say, "This is a bad idea. The rules you made were
unbalanced and unnecessary." On the other hand a flame would look something
like this, "Doom your a moron. I can't believe your would do something as dumb
as base a spell success test off of the mage's Magic Attribute. This is
probably one of the dumbest rule modifications I've every heard of in my life!"
Can you see the difference?
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
P.S. (BTW: It's spelled 'sorry') :) Ever heard of a typo?
P.P.S. Those comments on Doom's magic were ficticous and were by no means meant
to be taken as anything but as an example of a flame.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 21:32:44 -0700
Reply-To: HAHN@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: stefan hahn <HAHN@***.EDU>
Subject: Thwaptronics, Ltd.
To Clarify:
Thwaptronics Ltd.'s Current line of products should be considered public
domain. Should you find yourself in need of a thwap, please feel free to
use one of our fine quality slightly-used carp for the purpose. Thank you.
And Now...
For those occasions when people are only being SLIGHTLY naughty,
Thwaptronics Ltd. introduces Thwap Lite.
Ttttttt H h W w A Ppppp
t h h w w a a p p
t h h w w w a a p ppp
t hhhhhhh w w w w aaaaaa pppppp
t h h ww ww a a p
t h h w w a ap
t h h w w a a
Everything you wanted in a regular Thwap, and less!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1993 23:41:16 -0500
Reply-To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thwaptronics, Ltd.
In-Reply-To: (null)
On Sun, 18 Apr 1993, stefan hahn wrote:
> Everything you wanted in a regular Thwap, and less!
Hmmm . . somehow that sounds familiar. Perhaps it could be a look and
feel infringement.
--
Ok, I'll shut up now. :)
[> Robert Hayden ____ <] Black Holes result from God
[> \ /__ <] dividing the universe by zero.
[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ / <]
[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ <] # include std_disclaimer.h
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 01:59:33 -0400
Reply-To: "Like, dude, where's the firefight?"
<MURRAYMD@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Like, dude, where's the firefight?"
<MURRAYMD@******.BITNET>
Subject: YAR to YAR
>> I wouldn't want the effects of the force of a spell reduced in the
>>mechanics of my games, but that is only a personal viewpoint. I was happy
>>to see that you had not totally disregarded the effects of the force of the
>>spell.
>Okay. How would YOU recommend changing it, with the restrictions?
>Rev
I wouldn't reccomend making the changes that the good Doktor
prescribed. That is simply a difference in opinions. Considering the
"high power" aspect of the game I admit I am at a bit of a disadvantage.
Allow me to offer my opinions, with a minimum of rules quotations, and
allow you to go from there.
There are several changes in the Shadowrun rules from the 1st to
the second edition. A majority of them were for the better thankfully.
The biggest change, and the one that had the most impact in my opinion, is
the overall change in the magic system. The SR1 magic system was very
skewed towards the magic user and made life short for the mundane. I quit
playing the game for some time until the 2nd edition came out just because
of the poor quality of the magic rules. Why play anything but a magic user
under the first edition rules? I see Shadowtech/Bioware rules an attempt
on FASA's part to bring the Street Sam back in line as the combat guru (as
he/she should be) where before it was the 6+ Sorcery skill combat mage that
was the death dealer. I saw the rules concerning channeling spells from
astral down a spell lock as an attempt to keep magic users from locking
Increase Reaction +4 as standard practice. The potential for rules rape
under the 1st edition magic rules is staggering. Hence the reason why I
dislike them so much.
So when I sit at my terminal and read mail messages that change/
modify the rules to magic, I take a look at them and see what they do to
the balance of the game. When I read the rules ideas that Herr Doktor
posted I saw that these changes would make magic users even more powerful
(more than likely). I didn't like that. When I found out that these
changes were for 1st edition, I got beligerent. And when I found out that
the GM wanted these rules, I became incredulous. (This should explain why
I jumped down that one guy's throat a while back when he posted his ideas
about changing the magic rules.)
If Initiation is such a minor change to the magic user in your
campaign (an assumption, if I'm wrong it won't be the first time) then I
suggest some time be spent reviewing what you are doing. If it sounds like
I'm being a jerk about your campaign/GM, I probably am. I really don't
like the idea of high power games. It takes away a lot of the "grimey" and
mercenarial feel of the game. In my opinion the line between high power SR
and superheroes games blurs as the game gets more high powered. If this is
what and how you kids like to play, then cool, have a good time.
I can't really give any suggestions on how to make magic attribute
a more integral part of spell casting. I find such a change unnecessary. Nor
on making magic users more powerful because I have been spending all of my
time making them less powerful. If your GM doesn't like the SR1 rules for
magic then I suggest SR2, a more balanced game system. Since your GM
doesn't like SR2, then I would say that she is on her own...
*************************************************************************
* What should I do today? | Matt Murray at the University of Dayton *
*1) Carpet Bomb the Vatican? | MURRAYMD@******.BITNET *
*2) Club a baby seal? | MURRAYMD@******.OCA.UDAYTON.EDU *
*3) Have a beer? Beer! | "Like, dude, where's the firefight?" *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Star Fleet Battles Battletech Shadowrun Space Marine AD&D *
*************************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 02:59:29 -0500
Reply-To: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Our revels now are ended...
Meine Kamaraden:
The particulars and specifics of this repartee aside, I believe the issue
before us boils down to this:
How much of a bearing should the Magic Attribute have over spellcasting, and
to what degree and how directly does Initiation effect a thaumaturge's potency?
Now, many are of the opinion that the present system operates within
satisfactory parameters, and are anxious to dissuade one from changing it, to
wit, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". They are quite satisfied with the
present Initiatory powers, and some of their ranks are motivated to prevent
magic from again overshadowing the efforts of mundanes.
Others, perhaps more adventuresome, perhaps more foolhardy, would like to see
the Magic Attribute "count" for more. Some interpret the absence of the Magic
Attribute in a dice pool a flaw of the system, a view not shared by those
proponents of the status quo. Thus, they are eager for expiramentation with
ideas which might significantly alter the game's latitudes of operation.
The arguments either side employs have their basis largely in personal
interpretation and are therefore quite subjective. Murray feels I read too
much into the description of Initiation; I counter by terming his definition
narrow-minded and far too restrictive. We both utilize the text and rules as a
justification, both with a rendering of the meaning juxtaposed to the referent
such that they support our respective positions. Further, we engage upon
unsubstantiated speculation as to the disposition of metaphysics to further
bolster the logic and reasoning behind our opinions.
In the end, which direction one goes depends upon the school of though
to which one subscribes.
This argument has degenerated into a battle of interpretation, and
it is therefore unlikely that any progress shall be made in either direction,
as both camps are quite fastidious in their opinions.
Therefore, it is my proposal that we agree to disagree, as neither camp
commands the capacity to convince the other in this case.
Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc, PhD.
Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark Thought Publications
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
<<<
[ Doctor Doom : jch8169@********.tamu.edu ]
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
(this is how the debate of "Do Riggers Become the Vehicle" ended, nicht wahr?)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 10:00:52 +0100
Reply-To: Gerlof.Woudstra@***.PZ.WAU.NL
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Gerlof A.Woudstra" <Gerlof.Woudstra@***.PZ.WAU.NL>
Subject: Rainy days are here again
***** ATTACHMENT: c:\thus\reaction.txt *****
>Street Rigger
>Looks decent.
>Cyberware:
>Vehicle Control Rig level 1
>Needs a higher level, IMHO *grin*
>Gear: ...
>Roomsweeper + 50 ammo
>Ya know, I REALLY like this person. But have you ever thought of using stun
>rounds instead *evil grin* *duck*
>Bug scanner (4)
Gee thanks, I think.
Why does one need a higher Control Rig, is there anybody out there actually
using those car combat rules? I know the avarage rigger is better then the
Street Rigger. The street Rigger is allowed a lot more gear then I have given
her. IMHO this does not make a difference, every team can use somebody like a
rigger. Even more when this rigger can do more then just sit in a comfortable
bucket seat. And watch out for nasty boogies, while eating doughnuts.
Remember this a BEGINNING RIGGER, when she makes the big money she'll buy
the newest, meanest piece of hardware availlable to her. Just now she is
starting. Ps. have you noticed her combat skills and the fact that she is not
able to hurt a bug with her wimpy strength of 3?
>Also, the average rigger would probably make this look like something else...
>a spider, mayhaps? ==)
>The Reverend
>(with an umbrella... after all, it's raining! *groan*)
Interesting thought? I play a street rigger myself and guess, I use spiders as
drones. They can crawl, and climb walls, have nice tools to cut wires and
connect cables for the decker and they are armed with a nice little tiny narco-
jet gun, much nastier then stunrounds.
It is raining here too, and my umbrella ist kaputt!
Gerlof Woudstra, in rainy holland
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 09:04:00 EDT
Reply-To: Blaidd mab Ceryddwen <MHILLIARD@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Blaidd mab Ceryddwen <MHILLIARD@******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: I've been Flamed!!!!!!!! NOT!!!!!!!
No dummy, that's CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Why? Cus' it's constructive. Duh.
Constructive criticism is well-intentioned and usually makes a point, moron.
Unconstructive criticism (a flame) can make a point, but it's usually expressed
in a rude manner. Like this. Thank you for calling Stu Spencer Associates.
Phelan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 09:57:00 EDT
Reply-To: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Subject: "flames", unarmed combat, elementals, and "take it to
email"
YO! cut the diatribe. who cares what defines a flame? as hayden once
said "7-bit characters do not convey the intent of the author." also note
that 55% of human communication the tone of the voice. when someone
comments on your post you can't tell what s/he is thinking. unless it
reads "you moron, you idiot, you stupid jerk, blah, blah, blah" then
the safest bet is 1) the person is _not_ insulting you, and 2) you
really should be pleased that you got a response _at all_. there are
many of us who don't get responses. :P
can we have a new topic? i know i'll suggest some!
(now whether or not anyone reacts remains to be seen).
how about having Unarmed Combat concentrations (read: martial arts)
do (1/2 str)L physical damage for "free"? it makes some sense. or maybe
just allow Unarmed to do (1/2 str)L physical damage anyway. ok, so it
takes something away from the physads and chromers with bone lacing, but
not much. read the fiction in the front of the Black Book (SRII) and
see that Nameless wastes the phyad (broken neck) during a fight. (i'm not going
to buy into "so much damage that it overflowed and killed her" from a
fist fight under the current rules.) comments?
magicians.
still the number one monsters of death. our group has three of them. i'm a
sam with bio and chrome and if even suspect there might be a mage somewhere
i won't go there without one of our spell-chuckers. if i don't take out that
enemy caster in a hurry i won't have enough dice to care what spell he hit
me with.
MHO is to agree with the thread that magic attribute is "power that can be
handled." what about geasa? hmm, which i could find my grimthingie.
the thread about spirit enslavement is relevant only as long as new points
to argue are raised. the idea of PASEE (read /pass-aye/, People Against
Spirit and Elemental Enslavement *grin*) is a neat role-playing concept. the
discussion has given me (at least) a lot of ideas that can be incorporated
into a game. conjurer adepts would really have something to watch out for ;)
unfortunately, the discussion has turned into a diatribe and now has
nothing to do with elementals or spirits - merely the ability of real ppl
to argue about a ficticious setting in which a ficticious organization is
going to use real logic as a launching platform to abuse ficticious
characters.
hey guys, take the diatribe to private email. i *like* seeing intelligent
posts about PASEE. when those posts dry up, hopefully so too will the topic
and we can move on.
patric
progers@******.bitnet
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 10:38:06 EDT
Reply-To: IP25331@********.BITNET
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Heath S. Goodliff" <IP25331@********.BITNET>
Subject: Paranormal Animals of Europe
All Gamemsters out there, this book is incredible......It is very well done
, fun to read, and gives LOTS of run hooks. Well worth the money.
Predator
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 10:04:23 -0500
Reply-To: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Troubles with Munchkins? Don't use NERPS
Troubles with Munchkins?
Rules-Screwers giving you headaches?
Want to trottle that guy who always comes up with a REAL creative
interpretation of the regulations?
Do you presently dread gaming sessions?
Don't get mad...
Don't use NERPS...
We suggest you use THE WILD HUNT
In accordance with the Freedom of Information Act (not really, but it is a
plausible excuse) I present to those members of the mailserver with information
regarding what probably deserves the title of
The Most Powerful Entity in ShadowRun...
WILD HUNT
No Accepted Taxonomy
IDENTIFICATION
The Wild Hunt is a congregation of spirits that takes different forms
from culture to culture. Authorities hypothesize that appearances in different
cultures are a result of the viewer's expectations--the perceiver shapes what
is perceived. Known as the Chasse Maccabei, Chasse Artu, or Mesnie Hellequin
in France, the Raging or Furious Host in Germany, the Yule Host in Iceland,
and by many others names in local cultures elsewhere, most versions of the Wild
Hunt follow the same manifestation pattern. The Wild Hunt usually appears as a
number of large canines led by a spirit that manifess as a dark-cloaked,
faceless humanoid form, frequently bearing antlers on his head. In some
versions of the Wild Hunt, huntsmen follow the leader riding great steeds that
look like horses with glowing red eyes and smoky, flaming breath. The
manifestation of the Wild Hunt is particularly terrifying because the baying of
hounds, blowing of trumpets, and the clamor of horses' hooves beating on the
ground accompany its appearance.
MAGIC CAPABILITY
Diverse (innate and magically active).
HABITS
The Wild Hunt is a magical force of immense power, and the concepts of
activity cycle, social behavior, and habits are irrelevant to describing it.
The Wild Hunt rides only rarely and always by night. What the Wild Hunt is
responding to when it appears is not known, though some believe it can be
raised by shamanic summoning. Wild Hunts may serve to track down and slay an
enemy of the summoner (if summoned), or create general mayhem and spread terror
and fear; the ultimate goal of this phenomenon is very difficult to determine.
The handful of shamans said to be capable fo raising a Hunt never speak of it.
COMMENTARY
The Wild Hunt holds a powerful place in European myth. The Hunt is a
terrifying, irresistable force: those who see it allegedly go insane (in fact,
medical reports diagnose witnesses to teh Wild Hunt as victims of traumatic
shock syndrom complicated by enduring side effects).
Though the Wild Hunt is defined as an astral entity with manifestation
powers, the phenomenon does not conform to known principles of astral-
metaplanar organization and expression. However, lingering traces o the
glamour power in the terrain over which the Hunt travels stongly suggests a
faerie classification, and the Hunt's prominence in folklore supports this
suggestion. Because magicians are understandably unwilling to open their
senses and magically explore such a powerful force, hermetic studies are few
and far between. Technological study also proves extremely difficult: it is
impossible to predict when a Wild Hunt will ride, and its passing creates an
effect that causes massive equipment malfunction.
POWERS
The Wild Hunt as a collective entity has the following powers:
Alienation (Zone x 5), Confusion (Zone x 5), Control Resistance, Enhanced
Senses (Low-Light Vision, Thermographic Vision), Fading, Fear (Zone x 2),
Glamour (Zone x 5) (uses twice the Essence of the highest-Essence being in the
Wild Hunt as the number of any Resistance Test a victim makes to negate this
power), Immunity to Age, Immunity to Cold, Immunity to Fire, Immunity to Normal
Weapons, Immunity to Pathogens, Immunity to Poisons, Magic Sense, Magical
Resistance, Manifestation, Search.
Hounds possess Enhanced Senses (Improved Smell) and Sonic Projection
Steeds possess Flame Projection and Noxious Breath.
Huntsmen possess Enhanced Physcial Attributes (Strength, once per
night, for [Essence x Essence] turns).
The Lead Huntsman, in addition to his other powers, also has Animal
Control (All Normal Critters), Cold Aura (Personal), Electrical Projection,
Paralyzing Touch, and Weather Control. Reports suggest that the Lead Huntsman
also uses combat spells, with all relevant Attribute/Skill Ratings equal to his
current Essence Rating.
No entity in the Wild Hunt can be adversely affected by the power of
another member; for example, the flame projection power of the steeds does not
harm the huntsmen or hounds.
WEAKNESSES
Allergy (Sunlight, Extreme).
ShadowTalk--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>[ By criminy, I don't ever want to vidie one of these in my back
garden.
Don't think they'd be after Reynard the fox, somehow. ]<<<<<
-- Rambling Sid Rumpo (18:23:11/9-JUL-53)
>>>>>[ Brane Deigh and her Seelie Court know how to raise the Hunt. A
mutual
understanding exists between the elves and the Prod paramilitaries in Ulster;
the Prods don't just use dirty weapons, Lady Deigh doesn't raise the Hunt
against them. There's terrorism enough for all, but they hold back on the big
guns. And you don't get bigger than the Wild Hunt. ]<<<<<
-- Sinead H (05:07:40/10-JUL-53)
>>>>>[ Who are the shamans that know how to raise the Hunt?
]<<<<<
-- Jubilator (22:15:07/10-JUL-53)
>>>>>[ Don't ask who, but we know a few things. Raising the Hunt is a long
process; it's essentially ritual sorcery and requires a group of shamans. It
can only be raised in sites lying on Magical Meridians, whre the background
count is high. The magical drain of the operations is terrifying in itself,
and so the shamans who participate are experts in centering and use as many
power focuses as they can get their hands on. Focuses are often permanently
drained during the operation, and raising the Hunt can also prove fatal to the
shamans. The seps call this magic-making "Ghost Dance magic." Once the Hunt
is raised, that's it; the shamans connot instruct or follow it, though they
can apparently monitor it undestracted by its glamour. ]<<<<<
-- Shambanara (07:13:50/11-JUL-53)
GAME INFORMATION
Wild Hunt
B Q S C I W E R Attacks
Hounds 4 6x8 4 - 2/6 6 (6) 5** 7S
Steeds 9 8x8 9 - 2/6 6 (6) 5** 6D, +1 R
Huntsmen 8 7x8 8 - 6 8 (10) 8** 10S
Lead Huntsmen 10 8x8 10 - 7 10 (12) 10** 12D
Notes: Quickness multiplier applies to travel over any terrain (usually
flying). The Wild Hunt cannot be affeced by magic that would directly and
adversely affect its rate of travel (e.g., the movement power of critters).
The Lead Huntsmen cannot be affected by illusion spells.
** 3D6 Initiative Dice.
I am reminded of the description of the Alien in _ALIEN^3_
"Now, what we've got is a creature about eight feet tall, has concentrated acid
for blood, attacks on sight, and is generally unpleasant."
Generally unpleasant...yes. The only perceived shortcoming of the description
is the conspicuous absence of Ravens, which, for those familiar with the
folklore regarding the Hunt (including Wotan's (Odin's) two Ravens: Hugnin and
Munin--Thought and Memory) probably know, are a integral part of the entity.
I would suggest using Storm Crows (which, despite the implications of the name,
are actually awakened ravens) as a base with the following augmentations and
adjustments:
B Q S C I W E R Attacks
Ravens 3 9x8 2 - 2/6 6 (6) 5** 5M
Powers: Enhanced Senses (Improved Hearing), Weather Control (Flock Only)
Soley for the purposes of adding a bit more flavor the the Furious Host.
Thoughts/prayers, anyone?
Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc, PhD.
Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark Thought Publications
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
<<<
[ Doctor Doom : jch8169@********.tamu.edu ]
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 16:59:49 BST
Reply-To: "P. Steele" <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "P. Steele" <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Wild Hunt
Looks good but how would a group of shamans go about summoning such an
entity ? Ie TN's size of magical background count etc .... or is this
just left to the GM to decide ?
How big would the host normally be ?
What about banishing ? Ie force numbers ? Can you banish the entire host
at once ?
Just a few questions, but otherwise I like it. Now all I have to do is
get my players in a situation where they have really annoyed some powerful
shamans. Shouldn't be difficult <evil grin>.
The Powerhouse
--
Phillip Steele |
|
P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk |
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 10:37:38 -0700
Reply-To: HUTH@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Steve Huth <HUTH@***.EDU>
Subject: Carter and Phelan
Please stop wasting bandwidth with the most juvenile argument seen on this
net. Why in the name of <insert deity> is everyone on this net (recently)
determined to get the last word? Listen folks: If you want to make
the magic attribute more powerful, Doom's system works logically. I also
think that whoever posted the first comment about why is this necessary did
add something useful to the debate. The rebuttals from everyone have not
been anything more than "Because I want to (which is valid), so get off my
case (which is defensive, and has let to long drawn out arguments about
who got on who's case).
Ditto slavery, and I add a special chill out request to Carter: just because
you don't think you're a slaver, and just because the prevailing opinion
of the rules agrees with you, does not mean that there are not legitimate
reasons for thinking otherwise, and there are very strong reasons for
creating a Free the Spirits Policlub, which, like all policlubs can make
itself a really annoying nuisance to PC's. Everyone please stop being
so damn defensive about your posts--if you don't want criticism, some of which
is bound to be insulting, don't post it.
Sorry to sound so annoyed, but I am.
Spectre
Steve Huth
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 11:48:33 EST
Reply-To: BOSCHETM@********.BITNET
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: BOSCHETM@********.BITNET
Subject: Skills
Now I don't want to start an arguement, but has anyone noticed that
it is imposible to create some real people with ShadowRun's skill system?
Like me for instance! If ya want an example just ask.
Wildstar
alias Logan-5, Legion, The Master
me Michael Lee Boschet, Jr.
BoschetM@****.ipfw.indiana.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 20:32:27 BST
Reply-To: T.Hoskison@********.AC.UK
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Troy Hoskison <T.Hoskison@********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Skills
BoschetM@****.ipfw.indiana.edu wrote:-
>
> Now I don't want to start an arguement, but has anyone noticed that
> it is imposible to create some real people with ShadowRun's skill system?
> Like me for instance! If ya want an example just ask.
>
> Wildstar
> alias Logan-5, Legion, The Master
> me Michael Lee Boschet, Jr.
>
> BoschetM@****.ipfw.indiana.edu
>
The system does actually allow you to invent your own skills under the catogory
of Special Skills. You may notice that some of the contacts actually have speci
al skills.
Due to a complaint about my sig I have now opted for a shorter one.....
(!)
^^^^^ Constipation means never having to give a SHIT.
____/_0_0_\_____
|__|__|U_|__|__| If the world had piles they'd be in Wales.
|_|__|__|__|__||
|__|__|__|__|__| Troy Hoskion (t.hoskison@********.ac.uk)
|_|__|__|__|__|| or (92230282@********.ac.uk)
Wot No bog roll
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 13:00:49 CDT
Reply-To: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Subject: Skills
Reply-To: BOSCHETM%IPFWCVAX.bitnet@*****.nic.SURFnet.nl
How about a little explanation of exactly what you mean.
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
| Chad Mawson *-* History Major, Nebraska Weseleyan University *-* |
| Internet e-mail: csm2747@******.nebrwesleyan.edu Lincoln, Nebraska |
| |
|-> 12. A sucking chest wound is Nature's way of telling you to slow down. <- |
| - from Murphy's Laws of Combat |
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 15:47:11 -0400
Reply-To: "Like, dude, where's the firefight?"
<MURRAYMD@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Like, dude, where's the firefight?"
<MURRAYMD@******.BITNET>
Subject: The Wild Hunt...
Hey Doom;
I've been noticing a lot more big crows around my place lately.
You wouldn't know anything about this, especially considering how you made
that post about the Wild Hunt? :]
In stark contrast to previous posts that he has made I have to give
a golf clap to his recent post about the Wild Hunt.
*************************************************************************
* What should I do today? | Matt Murray at the University of Dayton *
*1) Carpet Bomb the Vatican? | MURRAYMD@******.BITNET *
*2) Club a baby seal? | MURRAYMD@******.OCA.UDAYTON.EDU *
*3) Have a beer? Beer! | "Like, dude, where's the firefight?" *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Star Fleet Battles Battletech Shadowrun Space Marine AD&D *
*************************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 13:53:52 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Skills
Michael Boschet,
Now I don't want to insult you, but many people have said the same thing to me
about themselves and many different game systems. My response has always been
"Let me see what you think you would look like." In every instance the player
had seriously overrated both their characteristics and skills. Now it might be
that your right (although I seriously doubt that), but I would need to see what
you think your stats would look like and then have to ask you many questions
about why you put them at those levels.
If you wish to follow up on this send me your stats through either public or
private mail, but be warned. I'll probably do brutal harm to your self-image.
Remember that the worst person to judge your abilities is yourself.
On the other hand is your talking about some exceptional individuals, remember
that the SR characater creations system makes beginning characters, not
experienced ones. That's what Karma's for.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 12:53:25 -0700
Reply-To: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Jeremy Roberson <ROBERSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Toyz
Hey guys, whatever happened to the raging ammo debate we had going. I assume
Quiktek and others are huddling in their bunkers preparing new toys with which
we can decimate the enemy.
While working on my GURPS Cyberpunk game, I realized there is a weapon type we
haven't discussed yet-at least, since I've been on. Gyrocs-Guns that fire
rocket-propelled bullets instead of normal bullets. They are 3/4 inch in calibre
and a variety of warheads can be put on them. I don't have time to post rough
stats but I'll try to do so in by tomorrow. It's 1960's technology, so it's
feasible, though I would like someone to tell me why they haven't caught on so I
can make them unusual in my game for a valid reason.
Concept (from a friend): Monofilament Net. Fired from Net Gun=Instant People
Fries. Problems? Please comment.
J Roberson
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 17:25:43 EDT
Reply-To: IP25331@********.BITNET
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Heath S. Goodliff" <IP25331@********.BITNET>
Subject: The Wild Hunt
Powerhouse, from the impression I got whnen reading the entry on the Wild H
unt, I'd say that only large druid circles or shamanic groups of Tir Nan Og cou
ld summon it....never PCs and most assuredly never a corp.
Predator
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 14:40:14 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Killing Fist?!?!
Patric Rogers wrote:
>>how about having Unarmed Combat concentrations (read: martial arts)
>>do (1/2 str)L physical damage for "free"? it makes some sense. or maybe
>>just allow Unarmed to do (1/2 str)L physical damage anyway. ok, so it
>>takes something away from the physads and chromers with bone lacing, but
>>not much. read the fiction in the front of the Black Book (SRII) and
>>see that Nameless wastes the phyad (broken neck) during a fight. (i'm not
going
>>to buy into "so much damage that it overflowed and killed her" from a
>>fist fight under the current rules.) comments?
Remember the Deadly Plus discussion from just alittle while ago. I think it
covered killing with your hands pretty well. You can either use extra success
afther stun damage start doing physical on top of the stun, or someone's
following the damage scale method. In both these cases it avoids making hands
do physical damage. I'm against that because a) it steals the physical adept's
thunder and b) why Martial Arts concentration only. I can give my character
Unarmed Combat 6 and call him a Martial Arts master. Remember that
concentrations are limits on general skills, not enchancers.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 16:22:47 -0500
Reply-To: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Rainy days in seattle? What are the chances (100%:)
>Roomsweeper + 50 ammo
>Ya know, I REALLY like this person. But have you ever thought of using stun
>rounds instead *evil grin* *duck*
]Why does one need a higher Control Rig,
Well, the -2 x (level of VCR) to T# helps. I also happen to have a level 3, and
my rigger is NASTY. (IMHO, but I'm sure my group would agree)
]Ps. have you noticed her combat skills and the fact that she is not
]able to hurt a bug with her wimpy strength of 3?
That's what a high firearms skill and drones are for.
>Also, the average rigger would probably make this look like something else...
>a spider, mayhaps? ==)
]Interesting thought? I play a street rigger myself and guess, I use spiders as
]drones. They can crawl, and climb walls, have nice tools to cut wires and
]connect cables for the decker and they are armed with a nice little tiny narco-
]jet gun, much nastier then stunrounds.
I agree. The reason I said stunrounds was that my rigger runs around with a
Remington Roomsweeper (Remington Roomcleaner... protein gets out protein... heh
heh.) loaded with stun rounds. Just a litle gibe at my group (along with the
"yes, dammit! It's raining! It's BEEN raining! Seattle is ALWAYS raining!"
thing:)
Rev
(shadowquote of the week: spoken to our Johnson for the job..."of course we're
subtle! We're SHADOWrunners!" -with apologies to the speaker of the quote.)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 18:13:00 CST
Reply-To: 92804168@***.UWPLATT.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: 92804168@***.UWPLATT.EDU
Subject: My SR PBEM game...
My game is now full. If you have already sent me a character, you are
prtobably in it. I will be sending out info about how I am going to run
the game soon, so those of you who are in the game, keep an eye out for it.
--Dave Hoff
92804168@***.uwplatt.edu
92804168@*******.bitnet
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 15:22:51 -0600
Reply-To: "I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY...IT'S BETTER TO BURNOUT THEN TO FADE
AWAY" <STU524636420@***.COLORADO.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY...IT'S BETTER TO BURNOUT THEN TO FADE
AWAY" <STU524636420@***.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: My final word on slavery (unless new information is supplied)
>>>>>[OK, so far it has been established that spirits are entities living
in astral space before they are summoned. The question is are they forced
into working forthe mage and if so are they concidered inteligent enough
that this is entraping them against their will. The idea of the military
draft was used as an analogy to summoning. This is a fairly absured notion.
I've never see a recruting post in astral space in all the games I've played
a mage. Also the draft was concieved of as a way to defend our nation, it
is a responsibility that comes with living in this country. If we need
warriors then then men of this country are obligated to answer to the draft.
The spirits have no such obligation to the mundane world.
Draft point dealt with.
How summoning works. This is one can really affect how this issue
is concidered. For shamans it's easy. The ask, bargan, plead, for the
assistance of nature. For mages it's different. The most rational
analogy that I can think of is from the movie 'Fire In The Sky'. A big
light flashes on to the elememtal and poof, he is standing before a mage
who is happy that the drain didn't kill him. Seems like a kidnapping, almost.
(Incidently, drain is a big indicator that the mage was useing great power
to get the elemental here, but if it really wanted to be here it would just
appear andask the mage what his beef was.) Then the mage says I'm going to
be able to call on you for X number of services, go home until I call.
Poof, elemental is home. Doesn't seem so bad, kind of like indentured
service. Except that indentured servents volinteer. Here is a comparision,
Slaver kidnapps a person from his home, sails him to the new world, makes
him do a job, sails him home, comes back again later andtakes him again,
makes him do another job, sails him home. Comes and takes him a third,
and final, time, person gets killed in an accident.
Even though the person in question was home most of the time, the time
he spent away he was a kidnapped slave. Now he died in slavery, (bansihment
or physical damage in astral space), opps, so sorry. Well time to get a new
one. The only big diffference in this example is the travel time in astral
space is pittifully small.
Now, this is still not entirely bad if the entity summoned doesn't
have human intelligence. As far as I can tell this would mean that summoning
watchers, as the Grimthingie states that watchers are none-to-smart. But even
these imbicils of astral space can understand and speak english (or the
language of who ever they need to talk to). So summoning a elemental or a
greater elemental would be even more of a crime. (A force 1 elemental may
only have an intel of 1 but the same rings true for most trolls I've seen)
Then there is the great ally spirit, bound for _LIFE_ to the summoner,
unless it escapes. Then their are free spirits. Not inteligent Nightstalker?
Chapter four of the Grimthingie II opens up with a quote from a free spirit
being interviewed. The Quote goes like this: "Living in the material world
would be a real drag if it weren't for people. You guys are just so darn
funny!" And I think that the description of free spirits being "non-player
characters with free will, its own goals and tastes, and everything else that
makes a _character unique_."(emphisis added) is claim enough to intelligence.
And I could see a court case where a free sprit killed a mage who was
trying to find out its true name(if the spirit decided to go) being ruled
in the spirits favor as selfdefense.
Well, that should hold this debate up longer.
]<<<<<
BurnouT
Russ Hutchison
stu524636420@***.colorado.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 15:04:06 -0700
Reply-To: MATUSKEY@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Ed Matuskey <MATUSKEY@***.EDU>
Subject: Elemental drafts
Sorry, folks, I know many of you are getting tired of the whole slavery thing,
but Carter brought up a point that I couldn't let past. I'll paraphrase (I've
never figured out how to reply quoting parts of preceding posts. Ah, well)
Carter's point:
We shouldn't feel bad about sending spirits into battle, because that's
what our own military does. Why treat spirits better than citizens of our
nation?
Well, for one, the spirits aren't a part of our nation: they aren't citizens.
And, contrary to popular opinion, it is possible to stay out of the military
There is no draft, so the only ones in the military are the ones who chose
to go there: spirits get no choice (an assumption, I grant you). We're
basically taking citizens from another country, and getting them to fight in
our wars for us, when we order elementals to fight. Yes, I am working under
the assumption that elementals are intelligent before they are summoned: I
hold that the fact that elementals become free spirits after they free
themselves, and the fact that they try to free themselves, is enough
evidence to support that idea (your opinion probably differs).
Carter's point: I'm thinking like a human, imposing my own ideas of morality
on the spirits, who view things totally differently.
Of course I'm thinking like a human: I am (last time I checked, anyway....)
And you don't have any proof that elementals DON'T mind the treatment. This
is why I didn't respond very much to your post: we've come to a point where
facts are lacking, and so we can't do anything more but scream "I'm right!"
over the other person.
Allies (again, groan!): Just because some magicians treat their allies like
garbage, doesn't mean the others should be penalized. Or: Just because some
magicians are nice to their allies doesn't justify the practice. You can
take either point, and argue till you're blue in the face, and not get
anywhere, so I'll let it drop. (crowd roars)
All right, I think I've covered it all: if not, I'll either talk more, or I
won't. It depends on how much people want to keep talking about it.
-Ed
-Highlander
The whole thing about deckers was said as a joke that Jason took seriously:
same as the subject heading war. On the whole, I guess deckers aren't any
more moral than enslaving mages (I couldn't resist!), just immoral in
different areas.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 16:13:44 -0900
Reply-To: "ACAD1A::KSGWA" <KSGWA@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: The Mage of the Realms <KSGWA@******.BITNET>
Subject: PAE
I agree that Paranormal Animals of Europe is well done... But is it just my
book that is missing the size relation picture of the Elk/Moose thing...
(sorry dont have a page or a name with me... book is at home...)
Atticus
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 19:28:16 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Slavery stuff and the Draft
Here we are back again. Yes boys and girls its the debate that won't end.
Burnout said we had established that spirits are entities living in astral space
before they are summoned. I missed this. Would someone give me the definitive
proof to that.
Burnout and Highlander have blasted me for using the Draft as a anology for
summoning. First of all I never said spirits were drafted. I merely said that
pulling someone from their home (assuming they already exist), keeping them on
constant call, and sending them into hazardous duty is exactly what the Draft
does in time of war. And Ed, there is a draft. Don't you remember signing up
for Selective Service. That's so the government knows were you are when draft
time comes up. Draft point cleaned up.
Burnout talks of how difficult it is for mages to summon while it's easy for
shamans. Last time I checked shamans used the exact same drain codes. I guess
that must mean shamans aren't asking too nicely. Also indentured servitude,
dispite what Burnout sayes, was not always voluntary. Many people were sold
into indentured servitude to pay debts.
Now Free Spirits are an entirely different issue. First of all I never said
Free Spirits are not intelligent. In fact they are something more than the
run of the mill spirit. What I find interesting is that before a spirit can
become a free spirit it has to have been bound (by shaman or mage). Then when
it becomes free it gains abilities and a True Name. Something obviously
happened to the spirit when it was bound. I've never heard of anything that
was taken captive or enslaved that gained powers when it was freed. Sounds like
a good argument for creation. Lastly a Free Spirit could not win a court case
for killing a mage. They have no legal rights. Thus if someone whated to
punish the spirit, they would either find its Free Name and bind it or just find
him and destroy him.
I would also like to thank Ed for seeing why I didn't let him get away with his
decker comment. Yes, I did know it was in jest, but it was so easy to use it
to paint his whole argument in a different light. Don't worry, Ed, my other
character is a decker.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 23:00:46 -0400
Reply-To: "Mr. Enforcer" <M484443R@***.EDINBORO.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Mr. Enforcer" <M484443R@***.EDINBORO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Skills
We did the same thang last summer, but the thing we did different was we made
up other people as characters. It came out unbiased, IMHO, but still people
used their own judgement on the creation. They weren't perfect, obviously, but
still were pretty close, if not funny.
There is one guy who we let hang around with us we'll call...Geoff.
He's the "I want to be the biggest baddest street sam there is" type. You
know him...the one who runs after taking a light wound, because of the +1 T# ?
Anyway, it was fun for me to make him. :)
So, my first question and comments.
I started running my own game about a year ago, and I have a problem that I
need help with. My characters are all greedy sonsobitches, who haven't come
to the realization yet that SR II is _deadly_, and they keep doing stupid
things and get killed, which naturally annoys them. I try to lead them to
the non-lethal side of SR, but I think I'm failing miserably. Last time they
went up against some drunk trolls and picked a fight with them. Now picking
a fight w/ 5 drunk trolls is not a bright thing to do, but they still swept
the floor with them. They did get hit hard in the IMAGO module (great run
BTW except for the ending) tho. Any suggestions?
==<Mark Rickard>==
P.S. Sorry for the rambling length, but it's not a slavery/flame/magic post, eh?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 22:45:51 CDT
Reply-To: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Subject: Toyz!!!
Here you go Roberson, my players and I's interpretation of the new ammo.
Shadowrun Additions, Changes, and Clarifications
Chad Mawson, April 14th 1993
(Substitute "Nuyen per 10" for %
New Ammo:
Incendiary: Normal round, chance to ignite flammable material; 30 Nuyen/10,
3/36 hrs. Street Index 1
Napalm Gel (Igniting): Stun round, ignites when fired. Weapons Power M burn.
Pwr/3 (rnd dwn) = duration of burn (in rounds); 60%, 8/7 days, Street Index 2.5
Napalm Gel (Non-igniting): Stun round ignites if heated. Pwr/3 (rnd dwn) =
duration of burn (in rounds); 45%, 5/7 days, Street Index 2
Depleted Uranium Flechette: Full and Partial Suit get 2x Ballistic, Security
Armor gets 1.5x Ballistic, all other Normal Ballistic. Raises Damage Code by
one (i.e. M to S, S to D); 300%, 15/21 days, Street Index 4
Depleted Uranium APDS: +2 Power, 1/2 Armor, -10% range per category; 250%,
16/28 days, Street Index 6
Incendiary APDS: Self Explanatory; 100%, 16/18 days, Street Index 4.25
Depleted Uranium Incendiary APDS: Self Explanatory; 275%, 17/28 days, Street
Index 6
Monofilament Net! (heh)
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
| Chad Mawson *-* History Major, Nebraska Weseleyan University *-* |
| Internet e-mail: csm2747@******.nebrwesleyan.edu Lincoln, Nebraska |
| |
|-> 12. A sucking chest wound is Nature's way of telling you to slow down. <- |
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 03:47:00 EDT
Reply-To: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Subject: physical damage with Unarmed Combat,
the authors response to Jason Carter
jason carter responded to my post about allowing Unarmed combat (or
it's concentration "Martial Arts") to cause (1/2 str)L physical damage with
this response:
*Remember the Deadly Plus discussion from just alittle while ago. I think it
*covered killing with your hands pretty well. You can either use extra success
*afther stun damage start doing physical on top of the stun, or someone's
*following the damage scale method. In both these cases it avoids making hands
*do physical damage. I'm against that because a) it steals the physical adept's
*thunder and b) why Martial Arts concentration only. I can give my character
*Unarmed Combat 6 and call him a Martial Arts master. Remember that
*concentrations are limits on general skills, not enchancers.
i remeber the discussion, but chose to suggest an alternate method which
does not change the current rules concerning rolling successes, and is
somewhat less intense than the previous discussion. the method i have
proposed also allows a character to kill his opponent without having to
first knock him out - adding a "bit of realism" to the game.
i also do not feel that it really takes anything away from physads. most
physads who choose killing hands will have twice the power rating and
a damage level of at least moderate (1 magic point) if not serious (2
magic points). the physad who has a low strength and only light killing
hands doesn't have any thunder to steal as his real abilities lie
elsewhere.
you are correct about the concentrations. when i made my original post i
was not in edit mode and managed to mumble something about "martial arts"
concentrations then say "why not just use unarmed combat skill."
in retrospect, i advocate that my proposed system be used with Unarmed
Combat skill and it's various concentrations and specializations.
speaking of such animals, how do others run the limitations for Unarmed
Combat concentrations and specializations? i have seen several posts that
others have made concerning full-blown martial arts powers and skills, but
i'm interested in "just the black book" rules. ("keep it simple,
stupid").
patric
progers@******.bitnet
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 03:42:20 -0500
Reply-To: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: The Wild Hunt...
Well, everyone seems to have taken to this!
>Looks good but how would a group of shamans go about summoning such an
>entity ? Ie TN's size of magical background count etc .... or is this
>just left to the GM to decide ?
Ahhhhhh...this is something which should we WELL without a player's reach, in
fact, I believe it would require the sources of a major government to perform
the necessary ritual. As was implied, it is in proximity to the magnitude of
Great Ghost Dance metaphysics. And how many Game Masters would permit Player
Characters to summon such an abomination.
This entity is the equivalent of a Metaphysical Thermonuclear Device. Its use
should NOT be taken lightly.
As for a description, look to the text. A large group of Shamans, or
Hermetics, depending upon your personal inclinations ( I dare say I do not
accept the implication that Hermetics cannot perform the ceremony--admittedly
with great difficulty, but perform it nonetheless ) literally DRIPPING with
Power Foci, all of which shall likely be drained as a result. Such an assembly
indicates high-level INITIATES, KARMA, and MONEY (all in great abundance).
Also, it is probable that some of the participants shall die as a result of the
attempt. Well beyond the means of players, and even most corporations.
Also, one receives the impression that, due to the nature of its mythology, it
must be summoned in Europe, and only on "Magical Meridians"--where the
background count is high, which I interpret to mean VERY HIGH. On the order of
Auschwitz.
>How big would the host normally be ?
Depending upon the task, this could vary considerably. However, in all the
descriptions I have managed to acquire in references in Norse, Teutonic, and
other mythologies, it is well defined as a HOST...a huge body of beings.
A conjecture?
1 Horn Master--Wotan whatever you wish to call him.
30 Mounted Horsemen
45 Wolves
60 Raven
This is merely off the top of my head, for anyones' purposes, it could be quite
large indeed.
As to a description of the Hunt itself, I would direct you to peruse the Torg
books, as it is an element in at least two of the stories. I shall write later
as to the specifics--my memory fails me at the moment.
>What about banishing ? Ie force numbers ? Can you banish the entire host
>at once ?
Banishing, short of destruction of each entity, is probably impossible.
According to the Mythos, once started, it can NE'ER be stopped.
>Just a few questions, but otherwise I like it. Now all I have to do is
>get my players in a situation where they have really annoyed some powerful
>shamans. Shouldn't be difficult <evil grin>.
Point should be made that this Host does not attack an individual. It creates
a swath of desctruction through the target and the surrounding area. Should
you mean to use it, it will mean ravaging of the immediate vicinity.
Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc, PhD.
Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark Thought Publications
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
<<<
[ Doctor Doom : jch8169@********.tamu.edu ]
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 09:26:03 -0400
Reply-To: aa2239@*******.lorain.oberlin.edu
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Matt Vanek <aa2239@*******.LORAIN.OBERLIN.EDU>
Subject: Shadow ethics
Ok, so far we have been discussing the fact that spirits are slaves
to the mu's that conjure them. Now, before anyone jumps down my
throat i want to comment of the fact that wether or not you believe
spirits to be slaves or not (and incidently, isn't that why policlubs
exist...these are people with diffrent beliefs than the populus..they
may either be right or wrong), remember that shadowrun ethics are all
relitive. You would go into a really long discuson about wether it is
right to hold spirits, but most likely blow the hell out of some
guy without thinking twice. You gotta put all of the gameworld life
into perspective.
later,
Iron Claw
-and with a thwap from a carp, he is off...
--
See the constellation ride across the sky
No cigar, no lady on his arm
Just a guy made of dots and lines -TMBG
Huh? Nevermind. I donno, I just got here.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 09:21:35 EST
Reply-To: "P.o.D. Overlord" <S20X@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "P.o.D. Overlord" <S20X@******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Skills
In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of MON 19 APR 1993 14:00:46 EST
Mark R. mentioned that his PC's have been sweeping the floor with
anything that comes their way. Well, I've been trying to deal with this
ever since I said I would GM SRII. My group takes out anyone and
everything usually within the first 3 combat rounds! Well, to combat
this I've been making the opposition a little better. Like up'ing their
stats, giving them better weapons, ammo, etc. I even created some full
conversion borgs with my own rules. I let these borgs make their
appearance in one game. They Pc's just sat and watched these things,
they didn't even want to get close!! Mission accomplished. I can't
wait to actually use these things in combat with my PC's. Another
solution might be, cheat on some of the dice rolls, or give the bad guys
a karma pool. Or use the Professional ratings SRII suggests. Hope this
helps.....
WRAITH
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 08:49:00 CST
Reply-To: 92804168@***.UWPLATT.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: 92804168@***.UWPLATT.EDU
Subject: New concept for shadowrunners: Mortality
I too have had problems with my party members getting "cocky", thinking
they are near invulnerable. I did an analysis, and figured that it was
mainly my fault; I had given them access to a bunch of neat equipment,
but had not been beefing up the opposition to match. All this changed last
week, when I gave the party some real opposition.
Situation: a four member group, and two soldier-type NPCs are defending
a compound. I sent a squad of 5 soldiers after them. I gave the enemies
good weapons, some good cyberware, and good skills, as opposed to the normal
run-of-the-mill security guard.
Net results of about 15 seconds of combat:
ENEMIES: two dead, two seriously wounded, one moderately wounded person
fleeing to go get reinforcements.
PARTY: Both NPC's dead, half the party seriously wounded, the other half
moderately wounded, and they are all scared sh*tless.
So my advice is that if you give the party members big guns and toys to play
with, just give the opposition a bit more power. Add in a bit of cyberware,
increase the skills a bit, and give them some equal firepower. It will all
balance out.
***************************************************************************
* David L. Hoff | Secretary of E-mail Correspondence *
* Internet: 92804168@***.uwplatt.edu | Platteville Gaming Association *
* Bitnet: 92804168@******* | Univ. of Wisconsin - Platteville *
*____________________________________|____________________________________*
* "When old friends get together, all else fades into insignificance." *
* -- War, Famine, Pestilence, and Death *
***************************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 09:51:00 EDT
Reply-To: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Subject: professional ratings and other suggestions
how to deal with the killer group:
remember those cyberware and bioware damage rules? fudge some die rolls and
apply these nasty rules - it should take some power out of the group. and
don't forget to geek the mage.
what exactly are professional ratings used for? is it equal to a karma pool?
(i've looked in the book, anyone got a page number? i can't find it.)
hey reverend, how did the cthulu sr vs. the brotherhood go?
patric
progers@******.bitnet
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 08:42:59 CDT
Reply-To: "Jeff Freeman (a person, not a Character)"
<WFREEMAN@*****.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jeff Freeman (a person, not a Character)"
<WFREEMAN@*****.BITNET>
Subject: Slavery: Applying human concepts to non-human entities.
Editorial Note: These comments are based on Showrun and Grimoire 1st Ed. Rules.
After following the slavery discussion for something like a week, several ideas
have sprang to mind, both about the concept of "spirit/elemental slavery" and
how this would fit into the game world. Anyway, here's my not-so-humble-opinio
ns on why slavery of spirits is a "misguided" concept.
The first problem is assuming the service of spirits is involuntary. The shama
n asks a spirit to perform a service, the spirit complies because of who/what t
he shaman is, i.e. the servant of a totem, and a protector of nature. Basically
the spirit gives the shaman a hand because s/he is "on the same side." If anyo
ne is "forcing" the spirit to the shamans service, it is his/her totem (this
might explain the extra dice in summoning spirits, shamans gain from their
totem, or it might simply be that the shaman of that totem is considered a clos
er ally). This also helps explain why most shamans cannot summon toxic/insect
spirits, and why shamans of those totems cannot summon the "normal" varity of
spitis. This argument does not neccesarily apply to hermatic mages, but they
may be absolved (at least legally) in part three of this post.
Secondly, the slavery debate assumes (erroneously) that the degradation/
forced servitude of slavery applies to the spirit elemental psyche as it does
to a human being. What most fail to realize is that these beings are IMMORTAL,
and (for instance) the sunup-to-sundown service of a spirit to a shaman is very
possibly about as significant to them as holding a door open for someone is on
our life. My reply to someone claiming I was being forced into sevitude by ho
lding open a door would be "You're being silly, it's just not that big a deal,"
and a spirit may well feel the same way. Again, the service time for an eleme
ntal is often longer, but is it really significant in a truly ENDLESS lifespan?
Point three is that, according to the grimoire, the sentience or even "Life"
as we mere mortals know it is debatable for a spirit or elemental. Several sp
ecific ideas in the Grimoire support this:
A) The watcher is defined as a pice of the mage's subconcious/superego. This do
esn't seem to relate to spirits until one considers
B) The book descibes the moment a spirit becomes free as its "birth." Indicatin
g that it was not alive beforehand. The fact that{a) only free spirits have a
true name b) a true name is needed to destroy a sprit (as apposed to merely "se
nding it home") c) therfore, only a free spirit can be killed d) death is said
by metaphysicists to define life, ergo, without death, no life} support this th
eory.
C) Remenber, not all released entities become free spirits. Only the strongest/
luckiest (the ones the summoners put more of their consciousness into) actually
begin a "life" as a free spirit.
D) All this philisophical stuff aside, the law defines a mage/shaman as respons
ible for the actions of the spirit/elemental they summon. Admitting independent
voilition on the part of the spirit gives the summoner the excuse that the sum
moned was acting under it, and I doubt the law is about to make mages LESS answ
erable for their actions. AS a side note, the actions of a free spirit (an ackn
owledged sentient entity) are not the fault of the summoning mage, leading to a
n interesting game plot: a) magician summons spirit/elemental b) orders it to k
ill someone c) does everything in his/her power to make entity a free spirit, a
nd d) claims it was so at the time of the murder, leaving the mage blameless.
SO, as I'm sure you're all asking, what does this mean in game terms? Well,
although it is not rational, policlubs like those mentioned before could exist
(rationally is hardly the strong suit of, say, Los Alomos 2000, or other clubs)
to give PC'S headaches. An interesting legal question also comes to mind. Suppo
sably, the UCAS laws are based on the U.S. constitution. If spirits/elementals
are seen as notsentient, then they are PROPERTY, as in say, The Dread Scott Ca
se. Now, imagine a law-enforcement-type mage banishing anothers elemental/spir
it. The victim has just been deprived of property without DUE PROCESS. Imagine
a shaman-lawyer saying "your jail looks architecturally unsound. My force 10 sp
irit will therefore guard me. If you try to banish it, you're violating due pro
cess, AND endangering my life needlessly, constituting cruel and unusual ounish
ment." Now what happens? Aren't litigacious societies fun?
Sorry about the length of this post, but unless clarifications of the above poi
nts are asked for, this will be my one and only post on the matter. Remenber,
I'm only playing the Magician's advocate here, not trying to force everyone to
my way of thinking. Comments/criticism welcome, flames make good targets for my
delete key.
Ciao for Now,
Jeff Freeman, user of no fancy sig files
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 09:14:56 -0600
Reply-To: "I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY...IT'S BETTER TO BURNOUT THEN TO FADE
AWAY" <STU524636420@***.COLORADO.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY...IT'S BETTER TO BURNOUT THEN TO FADE
AWAY" <STU524636420@***.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: Air elementals, a hypothesis.
>>>>>[I remember reading somewhere that if an airelemental is confined in
an air tight container (be it a room, hallway, decompression chamber, etc.)
that they are disrupted. Question: Could the same effect be achieved
with, say, flooding the room with halon gas?
Also with this new toipc comes an addition to the old, tried and true debate
about SLAVERY! (Crowd Moans) No, wait, this is a NEW piece of information...
really.
p.76 Grimthingie II
"_In one sense_, the moment when a spirit becomes free may be regarded as its
"birth.""
Now wether you concider this as its very begining or if this is concidered
its entrance in to this world, is a matter of oppinion. I am of the mind
to say that it is more of a passsage into our world, and is a symbolistic
"Birth." (Note: even the author said 'In one sense,' and put quotations
around Birth.
Beyond this point, unless some new FACTS are brought up by the opposition
I am content to say that we debated each other to a stand still and that
now it is just yelling back and forth about "NO, I didn't say that I said
this..." No facts, just disagreements about what the others are trying to
say.
You can sit back with you elementals and your allies and ask them,
'Am I a slaver?'
'No,' says your ally, 'but if you stop paying me karma and making me stronger
then I will escape and become a FREE spirit someday.'
And I'll sit back with the other rightous (place arrogent tone here)
members of PASEE and talk to any free spirits that care to share their
stories about the barbarism of the masters that aren't as rightous(sarcastic
tone) as your Raven, and wonder when society will look at its darker half,
]<<<<<
BurnouT
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 16:14:45 +0100
Reply-To: T HOSKISON <T.Hoskison@********.AC.UK>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: T HOSKISON <T.Hoskison@********.AC.UK>
Subject: Cocky Players.
Giving the PC's better equipment is not always a good idea, and if often
not nescary. SRII is deadly, the players survive by having the edge. The
main advantage that they really have is that the (majority of the time)
Player use there head.
The first thing you has got to remember is that most npc are there to be
killed. Don't be upset if they get shot down.The second thing is that the
aim of the GM is not to kill the PC (although it my be nescary at times).
Here is a few pointers to make npc's more powerful, with out the extra
equipment.
1) get into cover. It is only on vary rare ecasions that they is
not some sort of cover around. Partial cover gives +2 to target numbers.
2) Choose your PC's weapons carefully. If you are dealing with a
large party, then the shotgun is ideal becuase it gets them all.
3) Let the NPC's find the players weaknesses .
4) Let the NPC's get smarter. Let thenm do specialist manovers like
retreating.
5) Use the less well known pieces of equipment take are effective
when the players are unprepaired, ie flash grenands, net guns, tasers.
If the players are getting cocky then let the npc's stage and ambush, that
should shit the party up.
Another good point to remember is that Heavy Weapon and heavy armour
attract attention, either from police of local gangs. A good mugging
really screws up thouse poeple that walk around like a military armoury
(you can garantee that these sort of people always carry everything around).
I hope this helps in some way.
see Ya Chummers
Troy Hoskison(bradford.ac.uk)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 12:22:09 EDT
Reply-To: "Richard L. Davis" <IP85409@********.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Richard L. Davis" <IP85409@********.BITNET>
Subject: Making it hard on PC's
Well remember, somethings, either by the nature of the equipment, or the legal
ity of it, will make heads turn to get it, unless the character is really discr
ete and has a totally trustworthy source of equipment. Remember, shadowrun is
a world of dealings and double dealings. I am sure a small name arms dealer is
going to give the name and description of the runners who ordered the vindicat
or minigun, when Aztechnology or some other firm threatens to make his place in
to a parking lot or to let certain key officals know of the operation. A lot o
f the clout in shadow run is not what people own, but who they know.
Just a thought.
<<<<<< Blood Eagle >>>>>>>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 12:32:27 CDT
Reply-To: bellovar@***.WISC.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Christopher Bellovary <bellovar@***.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Unarmed Combat and Decking.
> How about having Unarmed Combat concentrations (read: martial arts)
> do (1/2 str)L physical damage for "free"? it makes some sense. or maybe
> just allow Unarmed to do (1/2 str)L physical damage anyway. ok, so it
> takes something away from the physads and chromers with bone lacing, but
> not much.
> patric
> progers@******.bitnet
Makes sense to me. If people wish to do it that way. Of course,
by the rules, any blunt weapon causes stun damage, but is you reduce the
damage code by one and the power rating by half as you propose with those
rules, seems to me that is a decent trade to cause physical damage.
Myself - I'm still going to just knock `em senseless, but it at least is
an interesting option. What does everyone else think of that?
Hmm... I had a half formed idea I wanted to toss up and see what
everyone else thought of it.... geez... now I have the perfect chance to
do it and I can't even recall what it related to let alone what the idea
was. In that case - I will toss up a simpler one. What possibilities
can you think of if a decker directly jacked into - not the matrix, but
another deckers cyberdeck. Or one of his own via a second deck. Would
this be faster than running a diagnostics program? Could you organize
all of the programs to either take up less space or run more efficiently
(perhaps using more memory in the process though)? Just quick ideas,
any comments?
Chris Bellovary
-- CrossFire --
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 19:53:56 +0200
Reply-To: "David B. Beck" <BECK5338@********.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "David B. Beck" <BECK5338@********.BITNET>
Organization: State University of New York - College at Fredonia
Subject: Players on the Rampage
When I have problems with my players, which doesn't happen very
often, I like to throw them into a social situation that they
have to role-play their way out of. Panther cannons and heavy
armor are fine, but make the huge street sam talk his way out
of a problem. If you think your players have been leaning on
their etiquette skills to heavily, make them play out the
conversation real time with you.(and remind them to stay in
character.) This helps a player realize if his character is a
little underdeveloped; ie. "I don't know how he would react?|"
Of course, this can still turn into a brawl if the players try
hard enough, but sometimes they get to like the social
interaction as much as the fighting. If they persist in killing
everyone or just making dumb mistakes and getting themselves
killed you may have to take drastic action. If the problem is
that the players think they are invincible, maim them. I know
that sounds harsh but it teaches a better lesson. If your
character is killed, you make another, but if he/she loses
magic points, limbs, organs, and such it makes life much more
interesting. To relieve a player of extra essence I prefer to
use vampires(very nice), goblins(from PAE), or Dzoo-Noo-Quo
(my personal favorite). For removal of limbs I like the Stone-
binder(one nasty bat). A well placed mage can also do a good
job if your players are low on magic. If all else fails, and
this is a last resort, throw a juggernaut at them. I gaurentee
that will put the fear of God into them. If, on the other hand,
your players keep making stupid mistakes, either bring in
another player who is more competent or talk to them about it.
Use an NPC to teach them "the ways of the streets". It's no
fun for everyone to die in the first encounter. Use negative
reinforcement, punish but don't kill when they make mistakes.
Granted, if the sam leaps around the corner and five guys with
panther cannons shoot him, oh well(one can only fudge so much.)
Just do the best you can and have fun. Hope this helped.
Dave B.
"Don't plan a run beforehand. Improvise and let the
players guide the way."
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 12:10:16 -0600
Reply-To: "I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY...IT'S BETTER TO BURNOUT THEN TO FADE
AWAY" <STU524636420@***.COLORADO.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY...IT'S BETTER TO BURNOUT THEN TO FADE
AWAY" <STU524636420@***.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Slavery: Applying human concepts to non-human entities.
>>>>>[I'm glad to see that others are adding their 0.02Ÿ on this subject,
thanks for your interest, Jeff. For a while I thought that Nightstalker was
going to be the only person responding to me and his posts are only there
so he can clear his conscience, and that of Raven.
Opps, sorry Nightstalker I appologize. It was rude, uncalled for and
unnessacary. Thwaps are expected and deserved.
On to my response to your theory, Jeff. The first order of buisness is to
determine if the summoning and subsiquent binding is voluntary. As far as
I have seen there is nothing gained by the elemental during its service.
It is summoned, it must respond. I can't see anything voluntary about that.
Your next point is that the psyche of the elementals my be so different
from us (humans) that the concept of slavery doesn't apply to them. This
my be true as I haven't heard of an elemental giving its point of view on
the issue.(It would be kind of hard to get one to fill out a questionare)
So I can't argue against this nor can it be proven. Next is your point
about immortality. I am quite aware of this fact but it would seem that
we would have less to offer to something that was immortal. What would
they care about our measly flickering lives? And it would seem to be even more
of a waste of their time to bother to come do part-time jobs for us.
You compaired a service of an elemental to asking a friend to hold open
a door for you. The difference is the service would be more like teleporting
someone from a different country to your room and telling them you can go
home when you open that door for me.
Now for free spirits. I already covered the Idea about a free spirits
birth in a post which I sent after I recieved yours. I would just like
to clear up the one point about killing an elemental. An elemental can be
killed by physical damage in astral space and banishment. Only free spirits
with the power hidden life can survive this. And free spirits can be killed
using their true name. And the spirits who become free don't do so because
of luck. As soon an elemental becomes uncontrolled it will go free if the
following conditions are met. (p.76 grimoire II) If it is higher than force
6, or has had a long history of association with man; ie. allies, elementals
bound for a few weeks, and spirits of man.(Or if the GM choses)
At any rate, I guess the only way that we will know the answer for sure
is to write to Ka-Ge and ask the drk lord himself. Otherwise everyone will
keep pointing out little tidbits text as evidence but with no real facts.
Hasta,
BurnouT
PS; if you see any other holes in my arguement please point them out
so that I'll be forced to reaserch more. Thanks again]<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 11:17:50 -0700
Reply-To: MATUSKEY@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Ed Matuskey <MATUSKEY@***.EDU>
Subject: Player balance & a warning
On the subject of game balance: I'm a GM, and have the same problem a lot of
SR GM's do: the players walk all over the opposition you send after them.
Then another GM took over for a few sessions, and ran us through a combined
NAN I&II adventure, which you've already heard about. The end fight was
our team of seven ambushin 4 or 5 guards, one Ally, one super-sam, and one
toxic Dog shaman. Guards: no problem, gone the first round of ambush. Ally:
still no problem, our mages banished the thing to oblivion. Shaman & sam:
problem. BIG prolbem. Why? Well, they were powerful, but that wasn't it:
we'd beaten powerful foes before. Steve played the villains smart, and he
gave them their own karma pool, as well as their own team karma pool. THIS
was the great equalizer: suddenly the enemy was dodgin our 10 success attacks,
and rerolling their own attacks to pound us more effectively. So, if you GM's
out there want to give your villains some extra punch, give them a team
karma pool, along with a personal karma pool. It makes all the difference.
Oh, and a word of warning: Any more Mr. Ed jokes, and I'll thwap the joker
with a flaming dikoted carp that was force-fed cyanide, and dipped in
DMSO/Hyper. Just to let you know.
-Ed
-Highlander
And I mean that
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 11:31:17 -0700
Reply-To: HAHN@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: stefan hahn <HAHN@***.EDU>
Subject: lethality
Yes, it's a good idea to power up your Goon Squad, but remember that
different villains should have different threat levels. Improve the skills
of the grunts, but only a named villain should have a Karma pool.
Basically, for the best cinematic effect, your Horde of Faceless Minions
(tm) shouldn't be that tough for the players to take out individually,
while a minor villain should be on the PC's level, and a Major Villain
require the efforts of the entire team to take out.
(Cthulu steps out from around a corner, casually munches on a hot-dog cart
and vendor, and waves at the party. What do you do?)
Also, even grunts can have names, personalities, etc. Individualizing your
gang members can go a long way to increasing their threat status in the
player's eyes. Spend some time on background, it's worth it for a memorable
gaming experience.
--Blindside
-30-
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 14:43:05 -0500
Reply-To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Copyrights (again)
I would like to bring this topic up in misc.legal (probably next week).
What I would like to do is to get about three or four Shadowtk
participants to do three things:
1) Write up a good summary of your position and why you feel that way. I
want to use this summary as part of the introduction of the topic on
misc.legal.
2) Follow the misc.legal discussion.
3) use that discussion to work with me to come up with a couple of good
proposals about how to handle all of this so that we can propose them to
ShadowTalk.
---
If you are interested in being on the "exploratory" team, please contact
me. I am not going to be able to take everybody (obviously) and will base
my choices on both order of replying and amount of participation on
ShadowTalk.
Thanks y'all.
[> Robert Hayden ____ <] Black Holes result from God
[> \ /__ <] dividing the universe by zero.
[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ / <]
[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ <] # include std_disclaimer.h
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 13:25:41 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Toyz!!!
Comments on Chad Mawson's Toyz:
New Ammo:
Incendiary: Normal round, chance to ignite flammable material; 30 Nuyen/10,
3/36 hrs. Street Index 1
>> But what does it do to people? You don't mean normal damage do you?
Napalm Gel (Igniting): Stun round, ignites when fired. Weapons Power M burn.
Pwr/3 (rnd dwn) = duration of burn (in rounds); 60%, 8/7 days, Street Index 2.5
>> How much damage does the burning do?
Napalm Gel (Non-igniting): Stun round ignites if heated. Pwr/3 (rnd dwn) =
duration of burn (in rounds); 45%, 5/7 days, Street Index 2
>> Non-igniting napalm? How do you do that?
Depleted Uranium Flechette: Full and Partial Suit get 2x Ballistic, Security
Armor gets 1.5x Ballistic, all other Normal Ballistic. Raises Damage Code by
one (i.e. M to S, S to D); 300%, 15/21 days, Street Index 4
>> Don't you mean Impact armor, not Ballistic? If not than these are even less
>> Effective than normal Flechette ammo. Oh, do they have these for Shotguns?
Depleted Uranium APDS: +2 Power, 1/2 Armor, -10% range per category; 250%,
16/28 days, Street Index 6
>> Ouch. Keep those away form me.
Incendiary APDS: Self Explanatory; 100%, 16/18 days, Street Index 4.25
>> Same as Incendiary, does it have extra effect against people?
Depleted Uranium Incendiary APDS: Self Explanatory; 275%, 17/28 days, Street
Index 6
>> This is psychopathic. Your really going to kill someone with this. (As if
>> that isn't the point.)
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 16:30:18 -0400
Reply-To: WOMBAT <WESTONCP7253@********.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: WOMBAT <WESTONCP7253@********.BITNET>
Subject: Marriage, and kids
Hi,
Has anyone come up with some of the effects of marriage? I.E.
is there any special advantages like an extra Karma pool or somehting?
The way we play it, being married gives the couple an extra Karma pool
when together. This pool is used for things like conception tests, and as
a normal team pool as well. (Especially useful when husband is a Shaman
and the wife is a Mage, This connection allows us to work together)
Well, my Ÿ's worth
Rascal
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 13:40:37 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Physical Damage with Unarmed Combat
Patric:
>>i remeber the discussion, but chose to suggest an alternate method which
>>does not change the current rules concerning rolling successes, and is
>>somewhat less intense than the previous discussion. the method i have
>>proposed also allows a character to kill his opponent without having to
>>first knock him out - adding a "bit of realism" to the game.
What's wrong with changing the method of damage staging damage. Unless you
don't want people taking physical damage when they are knocked-out by a stun
damage attack it makes perfect sense.
And how does this add a little bit of realism to the game? Just because your
trying to kill someone with a blow as opposed to knocking them out, the power
doesn't mysteriously reduce. But using your suggestion does just that.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
P.S. Patric. Look down on your keyboard. Look a Shift key! Try using it.
It makes your post much more pleasing to the eye. (Humor intended, but
the request is geninue.)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 13:44:07 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Air Elementals
>>I remember reading somewhere that if an airelemental is confined in an air
>>tight container (be it a room, hallway, decompression chamber, etc.)
>>that they are disrupted. Question: Could the same effect be achieved
>>with, say, flooding the room with halon gas?
Don't remember reading that anywhere. Don't think it would work either. The
Elemental would merely go astral and leave the trap.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 15:50:11 -0500
Reply-To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Igniting v. Non-igniting
I could be wrong, but I got the impression that "igniting" napalm would
set the napalm on fire, while the non-igniting would simply spread the
gooey-ooze-of-flaming-death all over the place, waiting for someone to
spark it later.
But then again, I could be wrong. I usually am.
[> Robert Hayden ____ <] Black Holes result from God
[> \ /__ <] dividing the universe by zero.
[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ / <]
[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ <] # include std_disclaimer.h
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 16:47:55 EST
Reply-To: jester <RENADE04@********.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: jester <RENADE04@********.BITNET>
Subject: get me out of here!
the sign off is not working
i'm running out of time
please oh please take me off.
thank you to whom ever will do it
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 16:49:24 -0500
Reply-To: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania
Subject: marriage
Marriage and the game
Well IMHO marriage should have no game mechanis effects. It is more
something for added enjoyment in the game role-playing wise. In 2054 a true
legal marriage will be hard to come by. One both participants will need SIN's.
They will also have to pay money for a marriage licesne. If they want more than
a license- like a cerimony - they will have to shell out more money.
Also rememeber there are people who just as well could be married but
aren't "married" CRUSH and Spirit were a fine example of this untill recently.
Just because you are married does not mean that you work better together. There
are many people who are married and often fight, it is whether they make up that
decides if the marriage will last.
How well they play marriage, whether a good or bad one does not matter
IMHO, should decide what effects there is on the game. I tend to give more
credit (lower social tn, karma, whatever) if players role-play well.
Nightfox
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Waisley Lglumka@***.grove.iup.edu --------(-- IUP FENCING
SCA - Shire of Robledol, Households - Cryptic Demesne (fencing) + Brotherhood
of Agincourt (archery),
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry for any bad grammer or spelling, etc. My mind works at 637
thoughts per minute, and my hands at 1.2 letters per second
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 16:03:24 EST
Reply-To: BOSCHETM@********.BITNET
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: BOSCHETM@********.BITNET
Subject: Skills : Ding!! Round Two
Demolition 1 ( Ya don't want to know! )
Unarmed Combat 1 ( I'm not too bad )
Firearms( Rifles ) 4 ( Weapons qualifications are a wonderful thing )
Firearms( Pistols ) 4 ( Expert Qualification with; M16, M1, Walther PPK,
.45 Pistols )
Projectile Weapon 2 ( A persons got to have a hobby )
Throwing Weapons 2 ( ditto )
Stealth( Wilderness ) 3
Athletics 2
Biotech( First Aid ) 3
Computer 4 ( Have to make money somehow )
Electronics 2
Etiquette( Military ) 3 ( JROTC had to be good for something )
Leadership( Military ) 3
Negotiation( Bargain ) 3 ( Ah.. the joy of collecting )
Car( Passenger Vehicle)3
Computer B/R 2 ( It is amazing how much you can learn taking )
Electronics B/R 2 ( things apart and by trial and error )
Computer Theory 3
Military Theory 3 ( This is the fun stuff )
Physical Sciences( Physics ) 3 ( What I am getting a degree in )
Sociology( History ) 4 ( Those that do not remember the past will repeat it)
Interrogation( Interview ) 2 ( A short lived career move )
Portacam 4 ( This goes with the above one )
Tai Chi 3 ( Ah.. exercise )
Etiquette( Sciences ) 2 ( An interesting skill needing to be improved )
Acting 2 ( A couple of plays, again another dead career path )
Biology 1 ( Interesting but it makes me ill )
Spanish 3
Sign Language 2
Morse Code 1 ( More fun than I can stand )
Ok, you might be wondering about some of that. First I spent three
years in Cub Scouts, two years in Boy Scouts, and four years in JROTC.
I played Football, Wrestled, did high jump for sports. For the other skills
that would make up Athletics such as running, obstacle courses( a favorite
of mine ), and Repelling.
In JROTC, Junior Reserve Officers Training Corp for those who don't
know, I was involved in many actives. They are as follows:
Signal Platoon : We recorded the Battalions activities on film and
Documentary stile films for TV
Wargames Club : Wargames and Role-playing games. I was pres. for
two years
Adventure Training : Did out side stuff and learned military type stuff
Special Forces : Cold weather survival
Color Guard : Self explanatory
I graduated with the rank of Cadet Major, but my favorite was
Cadet Command Sergeant Major.
As for the electronics am going to be taking the test for the
Technician class ham radio license. I have preformed some interesting
modifications on one of my computers and have recently built an interface
for the Power Glove to my Amiga 500( Suffering a light wound in the process ).
I computer program freelance or consult if you like that better.
I am a non-registered Amiga Developer( we're rectifying that ). My major
is Physics with minors in Computer Science( finished this semester ) and
probably Mathematics.
Well let me know what ya think.
Michael Lee Boschet, Jr.
P.S. As for age I will be 22 in July.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 14:11:52 -0700
Reply-To: HUTH@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Steve Huth <HUTH@***.EDU>
Subject: More slavery drek--delete now or suffer
I've tried to keep out of this debate because people are taking it so
personally, but my ego could no longer take being silent, so here's a
few thoughts.
First off, it has often been stated in defense of mages that because
the law says they are responsible for the actions of the elemental,
that it is obviously not slavery. Actually, this is not necessarily
true historically. In certain eras and places (including parts of
the old Confederacy) masters were legally responsible for the actions
of their slaves. I suspect this was because slaves were considered
property, and therefore the master had both ownership and responsibility.
This is really quite a minor point, as both sides have stronger arguments
than obscure legal definitions of responsibility to back their arguments
up.
On to free spirits. I think this topic is the thorn in both sides of
the issue. The rulebook clearly states that free spirits gain the
intelligence and individuality of a (meta)human when they go free, not
before. This obviously implies that spirits are not intelligent
individuals before this freedom.
One of the possible ways a spirit can go free is if it has spent a
great deal of time on this plane in service. In other words, if spirit
has the time, it will become free. (OK, gulp, here I go, I really shouldn't be
doing this).
In many ways this reminds me of the argument over abortion. A baby in the
womb is not alive in the sense of having an independent intelligence
capable of maintaining it's existence on this plane without help.
Similarly, a spirit, until it's moment of "birth" (italics added by Grim II)
is not alive, but after the birth, it is. Attempts to find out a true name
for the purpose of dispelling or binding a free spirit are therefore
assaults on an individual. Like with a baby, we are now involved in the
situation that something is not alive, but will become so. Do we therefore
have the right to do what we want with the helpless life to be? I am not
saying this argument is exactly like the abortion battle, but it certainly
bears some intellectual similarities.
One final point about free spirits strikes me as interesting: the mage/shaman
has very little to do with the actual creation of the spirit. When the
spirit goes free somehow it grants itself intelligence/individuality/life.
This implies at least a minimum independent will before the spirit
becomes free. The spirit apparently wants to become alive. This actually
supports both sides of the argument: spirits might have a will of their
own/but if they do, they are grateful for being summoned, because it gives
them an opportunity to become fully alive.
The situation is obviously different with allies. Any ability the ally has
is granted by the magic user, who has paid karma and a point of magic to
do so. Logically, I
(oops) don't think an ally should be able to free itself from its master
unless the master dies.
Anyway, I just wanted to add some thoughts to the debate. Due to the
fact that bringing up this whole abortion thing is so likely to
inspire strong emotional responses in people, I request that anyone who
gets really pissed off at what I said take a few hours off and respond
when they calm down--I post this in a very detached intellectual way, not
to state a political/emotional viewpoint.
Spectre
Steve Huth
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 17:36:03 -0500
Reply-To: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Q&A with the Dark Lord on High
This information is from the most recent Question & Answer session I have had
with The Dark Lord on High, Tom Dowd.
"Now they shall know why they are afraid of the dark.
Now they shall learn why they fear the night."
Here are the results...
1. Do target modifiers due to wounds apply to damage resistance tests?
No. To use the Dark Lord's description, it's a vicious circle, and the
process just snowballs. He termed such a suggestion "nasty."
2. Combat Pool -- several queries involved with this issue, which boil
down to the essential question: What Target Numbers should be used, i.e., the
old "Skill or Weapon Power" debate.
Herr Nightstalker was quite correct in his interpretation (erroneously
dubbed as "limited" by some) It is NOT a dodge test. Dodging, under ShadowRun
First Edition was a *reactive* pool...one is responding to the actions of the
assailant.
Upon formulating the Second Edition, the designers re-thought the
mechanics of combat and concluded it was far more simultaneous in nature, not
allowing for cognitive evasion of ballistic weapons. The Combat Pool is an
attempt to reflect natural agility and intelligence (which explains how it may
be utilized in an offensive role), a simple metaphor for which could be,
"being in the right place at the right time". In many ways, it is a "luck
of
the draw" if it functions properly, which is only one of the reasons that the
target number is the Weapon's Power, as opposed to the attacker's skill.
Another reason is that the designers felt that due to the rapidity of
action and the dynamic nature of combat, it did not afford the time for DODGING
attacks, or conversely sufficient duration to permit the assailant to carefully
select his target such that dodging would be far more challenging (which is to
say that it would have the Skill as the Target Number). Also, as the Combat
Pool (and Body) resistance is an act that runs simultaneous with the
aggressor's attack, it is an opposed success test.
I should point out that we are not the only ones to have debated about
this... Herr Dowd mentioned receiving several letters complaining about the
removal of the Dodge Pool, or suggesting that the target numbers be based on
the assailant's adroitness rather than his weapon. All such points were
dismissed.
3. Physical Adepts -- May they acquire Spell Defense?
No. Even in the instance of possession of Astral Perception. A
Physical Adept is just that--an adept. Hence, a specialist, but nevertheless a
"lesser" magician. In line with this, it logically follows that some
capabilities of full Magicians and Shamans inaccessible to them. Further, the
argument was put forth by Dowd that the manipulation of the metaphysical forces
was quite different for adepts, which accounts for this restriction. As to the
Physical Adept acquiring Sorcery, yes. However, "it is only for mundane
purposes", i.e., theory.
4. Quickenings -- Are they terminated upon the expiration of the magician?
No. It is defined as a permanent circuit to Astral Space, and thus is
not ended upon the Mage's demise. Another supportive fact is that the Mage
used Karma to establish this circuit, thereby causing it to be independent. It
shall continue until attacked and destroyed or Dispelled.
Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc, PhD.
Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark Thought Publications
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
<<<
[ Doctor Doom : jch8169@********.tamu.edu ]
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 16:47:07 -0600
Reply-To: "I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY...IT'S BETTER TO BURNOUT THEN TO FADE
AWAY" <STU524636420@***.COLORADO.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY...IT'S BETTER TO BURNOUT THEN TO FADE
AWAY" <STU524636420@***.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Slavery drek
>>>>>[Thanks for joining Spectre. I like your observations. There is
certainly some simmilarites (sp?) to abortion here if becoming a free spirit
is concidered the "Birth." I also like the aspect of the property/slave
/responsibility thing you pointed out. The only problem is that it isn't so
cut and dried when dealing with the point of intellectual awareness. The
mental attributes of an elemental are equal to its force throught its
exsistance, (exception I just recalled reading somewhere in the grimthingie
that an allies mental attributes ar equal to the summoners) the big change
is the access to new powers that it didn't have before. This seems like a
way to confuse things further, after all, I've got the same mind wether I
use an appleII or an amiga but I do have more 'powers' so too speak.
All in all this slavery arguement is kind of a moote point sinse it is
being argued in the world of shadowrun in 2050. Some rest assured that
elementals are non/animal intellegence, some will argue that they are
independent poeple just from another plane. As long as it can't be proven
then (meta)humanity will take the side that gives the most power, that
of controling elementals as animals.
But be warned! PASEE shall rise!!!!!!!!!!!!
AIR ELEMENTALS: WEAKNESS: CONFINEMENT this disrupts them. But will
displacing all the air in a room force it out as well?
]<<<<<
BurnouT
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 17:56:25 -0500
Reply-To: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Marriage?
> Has anyone come up with some of the effects of marriage? I.E.
>is there any special advantages like an extra Karma pool or somehting?
You're kidding, right?
>This pool is used for things like conception tests,
*chuckle*
Marriage, if anything, should be ROLE-PLAYING, *NOT* Roll-playing. The idea of
giving them extra points for free is ludicrous, and smacks of other things.
Rev
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 15:07:35 -0900
Reply-To: "ACAD1A::KSGWA" <KSGWA@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: The Mage of the Realms <KSGWA@******.BITNET>
Subject: Allies...
I have one question.... Why would someone want to have an ally when it makes
your magician so vulnerable? If someone kills the ally it hurts the magician
tremendously! Same as when the ally breaks the control of their master.
(I believe that the magician's magic rating goes down by one when an ally gets
killed or breaks free of his control. Sorry.. I don't have my Grim handy...)
So exactly why would someone want an ally? The way I read it in the Grim II
it seemed that all throughout an ally's life it is getting stronger until it
becomes strong enough to break free of it's master. Does this mean that all
allies will break free from their master's control and leave or try to kill
the master? It would seem that creating an ally will only, in the long run,
take away a point of your essence.
Is this a correct assumption???
Atticus
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 19:15:44 -0400
Reply-To: "Brian D. Neumann" <s85963@**.gettysburg.edu>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Brian D. Neumann" <s85963@**.GETTYSBURG.EDU>
Subject: Re: Why Have an Ally
There are a couple of reasons why someone would want to have an
Ally.
1) For an adept who can conjure this may or may not give access to
spells not normally allowed. This one varies depending on house rules. We
had a big discussion on this a few months ago in relation to conjuring
adepts. A Shamanic adept should not have to much of a problem with
teaching their ally spells they can not cast with most peoples house rules.
2) Untill an Ally goes free the summoner has a permanent astral guard
and protector. If the Ally is well treated it will probably act
independantly under some circumstances to the benifit of the summoner. If
they are poorly treated they will follow the letter of the orders given to
them.
3) If an Ally is well treated it does not automatically go free. The
GM has to make a decision as to whether or not it actually wants to go
free. In some cases it may still want to stay around if it had been well
treated. An example of this was my conjuring adept. He had built up his
ally to a force of 7 and given it lots of skills and spells. He always
treated it like a companion and not a slave. There came a time that the
Ally had developed to the point that both my GM and I thought it would
want to go free. I released it at this point. While I no longer have an
"instantaneously obediant servant" the former Ally, now a free spirit does
still stick around. The main reason it wanted to is that the character
had constantly devoted 1/4 of his karma to the Ally. This still remains
in force so it is definately in the Free Spirit's best interest to keep
coming on runs with me.
4) This is all with 1st Edition rules so I can't vouch for what the
changes may have been in the 2nd Edition.
Brian D. Neumann Phone 717-337-7192
s85963@**.gettysburg.edu Gettysburg College
s85963@*****.bitnet Box 1418
Gettysburg PA, 17325
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 19:23:11 -0500
Reply-To: "DEmon, CEO of Hell." <DEMON69@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "DEmon, CEO of Hell." <DEMON69@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Jyro-jet Ammo
>While working on my GURPS Cyberpunk game, I realized there is a weapon type we
>haven't discussed yet-at least, since I've been on. Gyrocs-Guns that fire
>rocket-propelled bullets instead of normal bullets. They are 3/4 inch in calibre
>and a variety of warheads can be put on them. I don't have time to post rough
>stats but I'll try to do so in by tomorrow. It's 1960's technology, so it's
>feasible, though I would like someone to tell me why they haven't caught on so I
>can make them unusual in my game for a valid reason.
>
>Concept (from a friend): Monofilament Net. Fired from Net Gun=Instant People
>Fries. Problems? Please comment.
>
>
>J Roberson
You're right, they would make a wonderful addition to ShadowRun, and
yes, they do exist -- Flair has a catalog that lists them.
Flair, do you still have that catalog? I think the list price was about
$2.50 a bullet. (That may be a bit high, but it's still pretty absurd.)
Flair, can you check the catalog and correct me on that? I think the
price alone is a good reason not to use the, considering that I have
yet to meet a critter that can't be destroyed when sufficient normal
ammo is thrown at it. (Well, except for those damn UB thingies!!! As
the groups Technomancer, I HATE bugs!)
Mike Barrett.
aka Trilobite
aka DayGlowBlue the alcoholic rigger/decker/street-pizza
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 20:17:20 -0500
Reply-To: "Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Stuff OTHER than slavery and magic systems. . .
Patric:
]how about having Unarmed Combat concentrations (read: martial arts)
]do (1/2 str)L physical damage for "free"? it makes some sense. or maybe
]just allow Unarmed to do (1/2 str)L physical damage anyway. ok, so it
]takes something away from the physads and chromers with bone lacing, but
]not much. read the fiction in the front of the Black Book (SRII) and
]see that Nameless wastes the phyad (broken neck) during a fight. (i'm not going
]to buy into "so much damage that it overflowed and killed her" from a
]fist fight under the current rules.) comments?
I don't think that you could convince me to give them for free, but perhaps
there might be a way to buy them. Personally, I suggest forearm guards, but
not like the forearm guards weapon focus 4 of the "high-power" group that I
used to play in. Yuck!!!!! That's why I don't *LIKE* high-power campaigns -
because they tend to become "high-power" campaigns. If you don't know what
that means then you haven't been playing long enough with enough people, or
you are probably the kind of person I want to obfuscate around.
-Ethan Court
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 20:32:46 -0500
Reply-To: "Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Slavery (0% opinions, low in fats, starch, and calories).
OK. I'm a bit late to jump into the argument at its height, but don't even
tell the Coyote that he can't.
I'm really curious about the slavery item being tossed around. I believe that
the topic, as it is, is going nowhere rather quickly, and wasting heavy
bandwidth along the way while everyone climbs up on their moral high horse and
makes it their personal crusade to retrieve the holy grail of righteousness and
receive divine recognition for the greatness of their acts.
Enough already!
I'd like to offer a redirection of the precess already in motion, and perhaps
thereby obtain a bit of signal in a sea of noise. I'm curious to see how many
viewpoints there are. I'm not interested in justification, or rationalization
of *ANY* kind. What I'd like is some sort of brief descriptor which will allow
all of us to understand correctly your position without conflict.
For example, the three camps I am currently aware of are:
1) Slavery. S/E have no rights, and are at the whim of the binder,
regardless of duration/number of services.
2) Conscription. Much like the policy of the U.S., S/E are reqruited for
a period of service, the fulfillment of which sets
them free thereafter.
3) Vacation Recruitment. (How else would I put it?) Spirits are not only
willing to visit/play in the Prime Material, but they
require the mage/shaman to get there. Providing a few
services pays for the trip.
This is the kind of thing I look for. I want succinct, BRIEF (you know who you
are) accounts of positions, preferably those which obviously do not fit into
any of these pre-conceived molds.
-Ethan Court.
"Yes. I *am* that arrogant."
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 19:30:36 -0700
Reply-To: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Jeremy Roberson <ROBERSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Marriage Karma
I'm all in favor of two loving companions having special bonuses when
together, and perhaps suffering when seperated for a great time and major
trauma if one dies. But-
Conception tests?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 00:21:41 -0400
Reply-To: Brian Angliss <angliss@******.PSU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Brian Angliss <angliss@******.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: allies...
Well, I like them for the following reasons:
1: They add their Force rating to your magic pool(I think...)
2: They can maintain your spells for you while you do other things.
3: As they are always assumed to be with you unless you tell them otherwise,
they always can run astral watch for you.
4: They can learn their own spells, even if you are an Adept and can't cast
them yourself, the ally can.
5: You can see through their senses and feel their thoughts(like seeing Astral
Space without even Perceiving) if you so desire.
6: You can give them Skills, like a Firearms skill, up to your rating, and
with their Immunity to Normal Weapons, this can be an advantage.
7: And I run allies in a way that if the Ally is treated well as an ally, it
is less likely to go free. And even if it does go Free, a well treated
Ally is more likely to hang around the Magician as a Free Spirit, where
it has even more power.
Seems fair to me...How about you?
Brian
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 23:49:42 CDT
Reply-To: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Subject: Toyz
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
> New Ammo:
> Incendiary: Normal round, chance to ignite flammable material; 30
Nuyen/10,
> 3/36 hrs. Street Index 1
> >> But what does it do to people? You don't mean normal damage do you?
Incendiary would most likely not do anything to humans more than a normal round
White Phosphorous on the other hand...would, my players and I didn't have any
good reference material (besides this list and prior knowledge) so we didn't
discuss it.
> Napalm Gel (Igniting): Stun round, ignites when fired. Weapons Power M
burn.
> Pwr/3 (rnd dwn) = duration of burn (in rounds); 60%, 8/7 days, Street Index
2.5
> >> How much damage does the burning do?
If I use an Ingram Smartgun (7M) The round strikes and does normal Stun effect
(knockdown rules are great here) Then it burns for 2 more rounds (7/3) and does
a 7M burn wound with ONLY armor helping against it's effects.
> Napalm Gel (Non-igniting): Stun round ignites if heated. Pwr/3 (rnd dwn)
=
> duration of burn (in rounds); 45%, 5/7 days, Street Index 2
> >> Non-igniting napalm? How do you do that?
Basically the Igniting round is packed into the casing with a stable flammable
metal (magnesium) between the powder and the gel. Non-igniting doesn't.
Makes for really neat effects when somebody hoses somebody else down, knocks
them on their butt and then threatens to light a match!
> Depleted Uranium Flechette: Full and Partial Suit get 2x Ballistic,
Security
> Armor gets 1.5x Ballistic, all other Normal Ballistic. Raises Damage Code
by
> one (i.e. M to S, S to D); 300%, 15/21 days, Street Index 4
> >> Don't you mean Impact armor, not Ballistic? If not than these are even
> >> less effective than normal Flechette ammo. Oh, do they have these for
> >> Shotguns?
Normal flechettes take the best armor value and double it. In this case soft
armor (Jackets, Armanti Suits, Clothing) get shredded easier. Security and
Full/Partial have hardened plates to bounce flechettes off of.
> See Ya in Shadows,
OK. Thanks for the feedback, I already realized that the napalm burn damage
needs a little revamping. And if I didn't explain something to your (or
anybody else's) satisfaction, _PLEASE_ ask. I get much better results when I
use stuff that has been SHADOWRN tested! :-)
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
| Chad Mawson *-* History Major, Nebraska Weseleyan University *-* |
| Internet e-mail: csm2747@******.nebrwesleyan.edu Lincoln, Nebraska |
| |
|-> 12. A sucking chest wound is Nature's way of telling you to slow down. <- |
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 21:54:14 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Here's your skills. Hope it doesn't hurt much.
Here we go Boys and Girls,
This is Nightstalker's "How to Reduce your Skill Points" course. Hold on it
will be quite a ride. Comments will be made about all skills. I will either
not dispute them, Hold them in Reserve, or Default them. Also thank Crossfire
for an assist.
Points that I do not dispute are ones that seem reasonably possible to me and
are not covered by something else. Points Held in Reserve means I'm spectial as
to either the skill or the level. Defaulted skills will be skills of such a low
level that they could very easily be defaulted to from characteristic or other
skills.
>>Demolition 1 ( Ya don't want to know! )
>>Unarmed Combat 1 ( I'm not too bad )
If these skills are at level one they should just be defaults, however for
Unarmed Combat See Tai Chi. 0 Points
Total Skill Points: 0
>>Firearms( Rifles ) 4 ( Weapons qualifications are a wonderful thing )
>>Firearms( Pistols ) 4 ( Expert Qualification with; M16, M1, Walther PPK,
>> .45 Pistols )
Since Rifle and Pistol are both concentrations of Firearms, this is one skill
Firearms: 4. 4 Points.
Total Skill Points: 4
>>Projectile Weapon 2 ( A persons got to have a hobby )
>>Throwing Weapons 2 ( ditto )
Possible. I'll not dispute these. 2 Points each for 4 Points
Total Skill Points: 8
>>Stealth( Wilderness ) 3
JROTC, O.K. This is a concentrations so only 2 skill points
Total Skill Points: 10
>>Athletics 2
Must be all that JROTC running jumping an climbing. 2 Points.
Total Skill Points: 12
>>Biotech( First Aid ) 3
Ummm, Boy Scouts and JROTC? Concentration, 2 points. (Barely, I've always
wondered why First Aid got pushed in with Tansimplant Surgery and Organ Culture
as part of the Biotech skill.)
Total Skill Points: 14
>>Computer 4 ( Have to make money somehow )
>>Electronics 2
People pay you money! O.K. you can have these. 6 Points.
Total Skill Points: 20
>>Etiquette( Military ) 3 ( JROTC had to be good for something )
>>Leadership( Military ) 3
I will not dispute these. Pair of Concentrations, 4 Points
Total Skill Points: 24
>>Negotiation( Bargain ) 3 ( Ah.. the joy of collecting )
Explain to me what makes you such a great bargainer. Otherwise this is a
Charsima Default. Points held in Reserve.
Total Skill Points: 24
>>Car( Passenger Vehicle)3
Are you a combat or race driver? If not then No points. Held in Reserve.
Total Skill Points: 24
>>Computer B/R 2 ( It is amazing how much you can learn taking )
>>Electronics B/R 2 ( things apart and by trial and error )
Can you build Compters and Electronics, or are you just putting existing things
together? You noted that you are up to be a Ham Radio tech and that you built
or installed interesting things into your computer. Could you please
elaborate?. Points Held in Reserve. Crossfire has conjectured that your
Computer B/R is defaulted off your Computer and that either your Electronics is
defaulted off of your Electronics B/R or vis versa. What do you think?
Total Skill Points: 24
>>Computer Theory 3
Computer Science minor? O.K. 3 Points
Total Skill Points: 27
>>Military Theory 3 ( This is the fun stuff )
I'm not so sure about these. Could you elaborate? 3 Points.
Total Skill Points: 30
>>Physical Sciences( Physics ) 3 ( What I am getting a degree in )
Your getting a degree in Physics and yet your computer skill is higher. Please
explain or I will be forced to take back some of your Computer points. (Note,
I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just suspect of your ratings.)
Concentration, 2 Points.
Total Skill Points: 32
>>Sociology( History ) 4
Sounds like general education. Points held in Reserve.
Total Skill Points: 32
>>Interrogation( Interview ) 2 ( A short lived career move )
Sounds like Charisma or Etquette Default. 0 Points.
Total Skill Points: 32
>>Portacam 4 ( This goes with the above one )
You'd have to be damn good for 4 points. That would mean your as good at this
as you are at computers, not to mention better than you are at Physics. Points
Held in Reserve.
Total Skill Points: 32
>>Tai Chi 3 ( Ah.. exercise )
Crossfire pointed out that Tai Chi is a martial art, thus this skill should be
Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts Style(Tai Chi)) 1(1(3)). Specialization, 1 Point.
Total Skill Points: 33
>>Etiquette( Sciences ) 2 ( An interesting skill needing to be improved )
Could be a Charisma or other Etiquette Default. Please elaborate. Held in
Reserve.
Total Skill Points: 33
>>Acting 2
Charisma Default. 0 Points.
Total Skill Points: 33
>>Biology 1
I'll chalk this up to general education. 0 Points.
>>Spanish 3
>>Sign Language 2
>>Morse Code 1 ( More fun than I can stand )
In Shadowrun I (but not two) you would get these free. But since were in SRII
I'll have to give you some points. Spainish is a Concentration 1 point. In
building a character Sign Language and Morse Code would have to be at least 3
each. I will give you 1 point for the pair. 2 Points.
Total Skill Points: 35
Please return your comments to my comments. But taken as they are presented,
you appear to be a person with Priority A skills. Considering all that you have
done, your are more skilled than most runners, but you've had more education
than most runners.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 22:03:23 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Toyz II
Reply to Reply to Toyz:
Incendiary Rounds - if they burn, which is the point of incendiary rounds, they
would do more damage than a normal bullet.
Napalm (Igniting and non-igniting) - Napalm burns on contact. It doesn't need
to be lit, becauce if it comes in contact with flesh, it burns. I could be
wrong, but my dad (a Vietman Vet) told me about people who would get hit with
napalm, jump in water to stop it from burning, and when they came out it started
burning all over again (if I remember the story right).
Flechette - Standard Flechette rounds use the better of Ballistic or 2x Impact,
not twice the best. It also only increased the damage level if no armor is
present. The stuff is great for killing unarmored targets.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 17:29:27 BST
Reply-To: "P. Steele" <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "P. Steele" <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Shadowtk - the list (fwd)
Jason Peter MACKINLAY wrote:
> Hiya,
> I guess this is going into the mail box of the list administrator
> so here goes. Could we get some common format on the subject line of
> list output? I mean i subscribe to another list as well and while most of
> it does have an identifier in the subject a lot doesn't and I'm inadvertently
> deleting a lot of shadowtk stuff along with mundane subject listings from
> the other list
>
> I mean somenthing as simple as "Stk: " starting the subject line would
> make life soooo much nicer. I mean, I get other mail too
> and it would be nice to be able to know what I need to read NOW.
Well I know this isn't going to help much but it is possible to write a script
or even a small program that would sort your mail into different folders by
looking for the address of the sender. I suppose you would use something
alongs the lines of 'grep SHADOWTK mail-file'. This would be a solution and
I suspect that some people on the list may do something like this already.
Any of you budding hackers out there already done this and would like to post
their program ?
The Powerhouse
--
Phillip Steele |
|
P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk |
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 10:15:47 -0700
Reply-To: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Jeremy Roberson <ROBERSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Ammo
One Question: When you say that the victim of a Napalm Gel round only has
armor to resist the attack, what is your reasoning? An why did you say that?
What else would I be wearing besides my armor. Unless you mean the obvious fact
that Combat Pool can't be used.
J Roberson
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 12:33:39 CDT
Reply-To: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Subject: Ammo
Reply-To: ROBERSON@***.EDU
> One Question: When you say that the victim of a Napalm Gel round only has
> armor to resist the attack, what is your reasoning? An why did you say that?
> What else would I be wearing besides my armor. Unless you mean the obvious
> fact that Combat Pool can't be used.
>
> J Roberson
Your right, it was late and I wasn't thinking clearly. I guess I meant no
Combat Pool. Anyway, besides that, what do you think?
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
| Chad Mawson *-* History Major, Nebraska Weseleyan University *-* |
| Internet e-mail: csm2747@******.nebrwesleyan.edu Lincoln, Nebraska |
| |
|-> 12. A sucking chest wound is Nature's way of telling you to slow down. <- |
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 12:20:32 -0500
Reply-To: "Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Black Book martial arts.
]speaking of such animals, how do others run the limitations for Unarmed
]Combat concentrations and specializations? i have seen several posts that
]others have made concerning full-blown martial arts powers and skills, but
]i'm interested in "just the black book" rules. ("keep it simple,
stupid").
Sit down with the player in question and make them get really specific
about exactly what they want. Ex: Fenris, a street sam with a different bent,
want the martial arts concentration with the specialization of Judo. Although
judo does have strikes, bone breaks, holds, chokes, kicks, etc., what he wants
are the avoidance techniques and throws, i.e. "The Gentle Way." So, now he
uses that specifically, not because he was limited by the GM, but because that
is what he wanted.
-Ethan Court
(ob-Shadowrun-screw: Last time I tell a character that he can start a sammi
with "no more than wired 2." He ended up getting that, plus a softlink-4,
cyber mag 3, smartlink, and every freakin non-active chip in the book. Teach
me to try to lessen the work for me. . . )
And, whilst on the back of that particular animal, how does anyone, if
they do, make the cyber mag3-smartlink combo less of a screw?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 13:30:57 CDT
Reply-To: Michael Baker <mike@******.BFSUN1.EGLIN.AF.MIL>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Michael Baker <mike@******.BFSUN1.EGLIN.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Shadowtk - the list (fwd)
Not to take up bandwidth here, but you can (if you're a unix machine) get a
program called procmail. Its indespensible for anyone who is on more than one
mailing list. It handles the seperation of mail into groups set by you and more.
Feral
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 14:13:06 EST
Reply-To: BOSCHETM@********.BITNET
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: BOSCHETM@********.BITNET
Subject: Skills : DING! Round Three
>>>Demolition 1 ( Ya don't want to know! )
>>>Unarmed Combat 1 ( I'm not too bad )
>If these skills are at level one they should just be defaults, however for
>Unarmed Combat See Tai Chi. 0 Points
>Total Skill Points: 0
What do you mean by that they should just be defaults, are you implying that a
person cannot have skill of level one.
>>>Firearms( Rifles ) 4 ( Weapons qualifications are a wonderful thing )
>>>Firearms( Pistols ) 4 ( Expert Qualification with; M16, M1, Walther PPK,
>>> .45 Pistols )
>Since Rifle and Pistol are both concentrations of Firearms, this is one skill
>Firearms: 4. 4 Points.
>Total Skill Points: 4
I can live with that one, but if you saw my skill with other types of firearms
you might not agree.
>>>Negotiation( Bargain ) 3 ( Ah.. the joy of collecting )
>Explain to me what makes you such a great bargainer. Otherwise this is a
>Charsima Default. Points held in Reserve.
>Total Skill Points: 24
I collect comic books, trading cards, stamps and money. To get a good trade
when dealing with other collectors you have to be fairly good.
>>>Car( Passenger Vehicle)3
>Are you a combat or race driver? If not then No points. Held in Reserve.
>Total Skill Points: 24
Not professionally but I have had some experience. Also considering the number
of hours I spend in the car I feel that I have developed a decent skill level.
It is an hour drive to school and that doesn't include what happens on weekends.
>>>Computer B/R 2 ( It is amazing how much you can learn taking )
>>>Electronics B/R 2 ( things apart and by trial and error )
>Can you build Compters and Electronics, or are you just putting existing things
>together? You noted that you are up to be a Ham Radio tech and that you built
>or installed interesting things into your computer. Could you please
>elaborate?. Points Held in Reserve. Crossfire has conjectured that your
>Computer B/R is defaulted off your Computer and that either your Electronics is
>defaulted off of your Electronics B/R or vis versa. What do you think?
>Total Skill Points: 24
I don't see much difference between building and putting existing things
together. But I have built a basic transceiver and a basic computer. I have
etched computer boards and built a sling shot board. A sling shot board adds
a 100 pin expansion slot to the 86 pin edge connector.
>>>Military Theory 3 ( This is the fun stuff )
>I'm not so sure about these. Could you elaborate? 3 Points.
>Total Skill Points: 30
Military Theory takes into account military history, tactics, and so on.
>>>Physical Sciences( Physics ) 3 ( What I am getting a degree in )
>Your getting a degree in Physics and yet your computer skill is higher. Please
>explain or I will be forced to take back some of your Computer points. (Note,
>I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just suspect of your ratings.)
>Concentration, 2 Points.
>Total Skill Points: 32
I have been programing since I was ten, I have only had 5 semesters of physics.
>>>Sociology( History ) 4
>Sounds like general education. Points held in Reserve.
>Total Skill Points: 32
Nonsense, I read books on history as a hobby. My favorites are Greek, Roman,
Persian, and Egyptian.
>>>Interrogation( Interview ) 2 ( A short lived career move )
>Sounds like Charisma or Etquette Default. 0 Points.
>Total Skill Points: 32
I have taken classes on giving interviews and have interviewed about 20 people.
Also I have worked on several one hour length TV shows.
>>>Portacam 4 ( This goes with the above one )
>You'd have to be damn good for 4 points. That would mean your as good at this
>as you are at computers, not to mention better than you are at Physics. Points
>Held in Reserve.
>Total Skill Points: 32
After I decided that I didn't like being on camera I operated the camera. I
have logged about 200 hours of camera use. I also documented the entire
weekend campout in JROTC Adventure Training and the Annual Military Tournament.
I am probably better at computers though.
>>>Tai Chi 3 ( Ah.. exercise )
>Crossfire pointed out that Tai Chi is a martial art, thus this skill should be
>Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts Style(Tai Chi)) 1(1(3)). Specialization, 1 Point.
>Total Skill Points: 33
Sorry to disappoint Mr. Crossfire but Tai Chi is definitely not a martial art.
I think that he is probably thinking of Chou Li Fut, which I believe is derived
from Tai Chi.
>>>Etiquette( Sciences ) 2 ( An interesting skill needing to be improved )
>Could be a Charisma or other Etiquette Default. Please elaborate. Held in
>Reserve.
>Total Skill Points: 33
First ShadowRun states that every subculture has its own etiquette skill. You
can not talk to most scientists, that I have met, like an average person if you
want to be taken seriously.
>>>Acting 2
>Charisma Default. 0 Points.
>Total Skill Points: 33
Hey I might not be great but I am not that bad.
>>>Biology 1
>I'll chalk this up to general education. 0 Points.
I have had to learn a bit about biology due to some ongoing arguments I am in.
>>>Spanish 3
>>>Sign Language 2
>>>Morse Code 1 ( More fun than I can stand )
>In Shadowrun I (but not two) you would get these free. But since were in SRII
>I'll have to give you some points. Spainish is a Concentration 1 point. In
>building a character Sign Language and Morse Code would have to be at least 3
>each. I will give you 1 point for the pair. 2 Points.
>Total Skill Points: 35
I believe as a concentration Spanish would be 2 points. Why would you have to
have a Sign Language and Morse Code to be at least 3 in character creation?
I can converse slowly in sign language and can do 10 wpm in Morse Code.
Michael Lee Boschet, Jr.
BoschetM@****.ipfw.indiana.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 15:57:16 EDT
Reply-To: hmangold@*******.AC.RUNET.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Hal Mangold <hmangold@*******.AC.RUNET.EDU>
Subject: Skills: DING! Round Four
Okay, I'm gonna throw gasoline on this smoldering controversy in stating
the following:
I, Castagir, feel that the skill web as it stands is the
tool of Satan. Through it he is conspiring to make my gamemastering a
completei living hell!
It has given rise to such questions as "If I have an 8 quickness,
I can default to firearms with eight dice!"
TRUST ME! THE SKILL WEB IS EVIL! THE ILLUMINATI PUT IT IN THE
SHADOWRUN RULES TO DESTROY US ALL!!! WE MUST STAMP OUT THIS SCOURGE BEFORE
IT IS TOO LATE!!!!
Castagir
hmangold@*******.ac.runet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 15:03:04 -0500
Reply-To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Skills: DING! Round Four
In-Reply-To: (null)
On Wed, 21 Apr 1993, Hal Mangold wrote:
> I, Castagir, feel that the skill web as it stands is the
> tool of Satan. Through it he is conspiring to make my gamemastering a
> completei living hell!
Satan? Even HE wouldn't be that evil. The skill web is a tool of BARNEY
the purple dinosaur :)
*giggle*
[> Robert Hayden ____ <] Black Holes result from God
[> \ /__ <] dividing the universe by zero.
[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ / <]
[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ <] # include std_disclaimer.h
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 16:22:51 EDT
Reply-To: David.Loewenstern@***.COM
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: David.Loewenstern@***.COM
Subject: Skills: DING! Round Four
In-Reply-To: Hal Mangold's message of Wed,
21 Apr 1993 15:57:16 EDT <9304211955.AA01517@****.rutgers.edu>
>>>>>[
I don't understand the problem Castagir has with the skill web. If
anything, the skill web is too wimpy. Yes, an 8 quickness means you
can use 8 dice for firearms, but with something like (I don't have the
book in front of me) a +10 target number modifier. You have about the
same chance to defeat your opponent by praying for Jupiter to
annihilate him with a lightning bolt as you have by using quickness
default dice.
]<<<<< Quincunx <loewenst@****.rutgers.edu> (Wed Apr 21 16:21:45 EDT
1993)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 16:46:54 -0400
Reply-To: --Mike-Klein-- <ch_ind08@******.OSWEGO.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: --Mike-Klein-- <ch_ind08@******.OSWEGO.EDU>
Subject: Re: .
In-Reply-To: <9304152153.AA02520@*********>
On Thu, 15 Apr 1993, Alex Rosenheim wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Delivery-date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 11:22:47 UTC
>
>
> WITH LOVE ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE
>
> This paper has been sent to you for good luck. The original is in New England.
> It has been sent around the world nine times at least. The luck has been now
> sent to you. You will receive good luck within four days of receiving this
> letter provided you in turn send it on.
>
blah, blah, blah as it were.
>
> Remember Me Always, It works!
>
> S & JUDE.
Snail-mail follies brought to the comfort of your own screen
Now showing at a screen near you.
I'm sorry to inform you that this surreal-side economics doesn't cut it.
I'f i would have read this filth sooner, a healthy thwap might have
been yours to enjoy.
Thanks but no thanks.
Mike Klein
AKA Singe -the Initiate with a Taste for _HellBlast_
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 14:00:20 -0700
Reply-To: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Jeremy Roberson <ROBERSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Que es mas amcho? Firearms or Quickness?
Castagir, it's true that your PC with Quickness 8 can default to Firearms
and still use 8 dice. However, his Target Number will be +6, meaning that
even with a Smartgun Link he'll need to roll 8s. Our GM is kind
enough to not count the originating skill as a point, so for
us it's only +4, but defaulting is still pretty brutal.
Before someone else brings it up, I will: Letting dots penalize either
Target Numbers or dice rolled. I'm happy with the current system, but
what do others have to say?
J Roberson
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 14:21:49 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: We'll have to get Quention someother day.
>>>>>[ Pack it in, Feral. We just caught a rather blanetly boardcasted
radio
message from a UCAS Army Extraction Team. They are landing on the island to
pick up Lt. General Trevor and the other passingers of his jet. God knows were
they came from, but they have a Stonewall Main Battle Tank! These three boys
have slipped past our net. ]<<<<<
-- Nightstalker <Ninja Stealth Mode>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 14:29:44 -0700
Reply-To: HAHN@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: stefan hahn <HAHN@***.EDU>
Subject: Barney? EUUUWWWW!!!
Barney is Happy. Barney is your Friend. Barney wants you to be
happy too. If you are not happy, Barney will EAT YOUR FACE.
--with apologies to Paranoia
The skill web system is a pain in the arse, I agree, but some kind of
default system is realistic. If you don't like the current one, why not
make your own, and lop off a few branches first.
Trouble with sickeningly sweet children's shows? Try NERPS for Barney!
-30-
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 14:52:46 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Skill: Round 5 Ding, Ding!
Hi Boys and Girls,
Were back for another round. Remember the rules.
This is Nightstalker's "How to Reduce your Skill Points" course. Hold on it
will be quite a ride. Comments will be made about all skills. I will either
not dispute them, Hold them in Reserve, or Default them. Also thank Crossfire
for an assist.
Points that I do not dispute are ones that seem reasonably possible to me and
are not covered by something else. Points Held in Reserve means I'm spectial as
to either the skill or the level. Defaulted skills will be skills of such a low
level that they could very easily be defaulted to from characteristic or other
skills. Note that much of this is conjecture on my part, but you asked for it.
Smile, were having fun.
Note: Everything is now out of order, but still there.
Projectile Weapon 2 ( A persons got to have a hobby )
Throwing Weapons 2 ( ditto )
2 Points each for 4 Points
Total Skill Points: 4
Stealth( Wilderness ) 3
Concentration, 2 points
Total Skill Points: 6
Athletics 2
2 Points.
Total Skill Points: 8
Biotech( First Aid ) 3
Concentration, 2 points.
Total Skill Points: 10
Computer 4 ( Have to make money somehow )
Electronics 2
6 Points.
Total Skill Points: 16
Etiquette( Military ) 3 ( JROTC had to be good for something )
Leadership( Military ) 3
Pair of Concentrations, 4 Points
Total Skill Points: 20
Computer Theory 3
3 Points
Total Skill Points: 23
Physical Sciences( Physics ) 3 ( What I am getting a degree in )
Concentration, 2 Points.
Total Skill Points: 25
Demolition 1 ( Ya don't want to know! )
Unarmed Combat 1 ( I'm not too bad )
I'm not saying you can't have a skill at level one, just that something at that
level could easily be just a default. In SR rules your much more likely to beat
someone up or used demolitions by defaulting than by using a level 1 skill.
Hence I said Default. 0 Points.
Total Skill Points: 25
Firearms 4
Actually after looking through the contacts, I found that both the Street Cop
and the Corporate Security Guard has firearms of 3! Are you a better shot than
a police officer? And I'm talking about live targets. 4 Points for now.
Total Skill Points: 29
Negotiation( Bargain ) 3 ( Ah.. the joy of collecting )
Guess what? I'm a collector, too. Comic books is my hobby. My question is how
do you think you compare to a Media Producer. They have level 4. I'm still
thinking default. Points Held in Reserve.
Total Skill Points: 32
Car( Passenger Vehicle)3
Everybody drives cars. The car skill IMHO reflects your ability to do high
speed chases and dangerous maneuvers. Points Held in Reserve.
Total Skill Points: 32
Computer B/R 2 ( It is amazing how much you can learn taking )
Electronics B/R 2 ( things apart and by trial and error )
Very good, points released. 4 Points
Total Skill Points: 36
Military Theory 3 ( This is the fun stuff )
The Mercenary Archetype in SR has Military Theory of 2. Do you think you know
more than the average Grunt? Points Held in Reserve.
Total Skill Points: 39
Sociology( History ) 4
I've read many books on history, warfare, and a ton of other subjects. That
would not necessarily give you skill points, especially in a system like SR.
Reguardless, at level 4 you should be able to teach the subject in a college
setting. I'm still thinking at least a lower level, if not outright default.
Points Held in Reserve.
Total Skill Points: 39
Interrogation( Interview ) 2 ( A short lived career move )
Sounds pretty good. Points returned. 2 points.
Total Skill Points: 41
Portacam 4 ( This goes with the above one )
Which are you better at Portacam or Physics? Points Held in Reserve.
Total Skill Points: 41
Tai Chi 3 ( Ah.. exercise )
Crossfire might be incorrect at thinking of Tai Chi as being a formal martial
art, but doesn't it include many similar elements? Much of martial arts is not
combat skills, but control of body and mind. That is what Tai Chi is correct?
Taken as a Shadowrun Unarmed Combat Specialization, the limitations of Tai Chi
would be it could be used to exercise only. Sounds kinda weird, but it works
for me. Thus it still gives you Unarmed Combat 1 and is a specialization.
1 Point.
Total Skill Points: 42
Etiquette( Sciences ) 2 ( An interesting skill needing to be improved )
I know each subculture has its own etiquette skill, but does talking to
scientist mean a whole different way of talking or just knowing all the big
scientific terms? Etiquette skills should only be broken down so far.
Points Held in Reserve.
Total Skill Points: 42
Acting 2
I really couldn't say, but I still think Default. Still I give you the points
2 Points.
Total Skill Points: 44
Biology 1
If bits and pieces of knowledge made up a skill point, than everybody would have
tons of level 1 skills everywhere. Without stronger reasons, I still say
Default. 0 Points
Total Skill Points: 44
Spanish 3
Sign Language 2
Morse Code 1 ( More fun than I can stand )
Error on my part. Spanish (as all skills) is a specialization. Thus it is
worth 1 skill point. That is also why in SR Sign Language and Morse Code would
have to be at least 3. I'll still say the last two are worth 1 point. 2 Points
Total Skill Points: 46
Please return your comments to my new comments. Taken as presently denoted, you
are looking slightly more skilled than a Priorty A skill character, but you are
much more diverse than the average person or beginning shadowrunner. You also
don't have any really high skill levels. If there is any fault to the SR
character creation system it is that high level skills are just as cheap as low
level skills.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 16:56:11 -0500
Reply-To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Copyright Team
I still need more people for the copyright team. Isn't anyone interested?
[> Robert Hayden ____ <] Black Holes result from God
[> \ /__ <] dividing the universe by zero.
[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ / <]
[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ <] # include std_disclaimer.h
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 17:24:27 EDT
Reply-To: Dark Elf <VESPOSIT@****.SUNYSB.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Dark Elf <VESPOSIT@****.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject: SRII skills for real people???
I'm interested in seeing if people can describe their own abilities in SR
skill terms (inspired by CrossFire and Mike Boschet's current argument.
Here's how I'd see myself:
Character Name: Vin Player Name: Dark Elf
(so I have a warped sense of reality)
First off, I'm almost done with my Comp. Sci. degree, with a small amount of
electronics thrown in. A Minor in music, and a smattering of other interesting
things...
Computer(Software) 4
Comp. Theory. 4
Electronics 1 (I don't see myself as very qualified in this area, but
I do have more knowledge than a default would indicate)
Music Performance(brass) 2 (I'm OK at it)
Music Composition 2 (Fun, but I'm not Mozart)
Firearms(airguns) 3 (hey, I'm a good shot with a BB gun and a paintball
gun, too bad I don't have much combat pool to back it
up, some would consider these projectile weapons)
Ettiquete(college) 3 (I've been here 5 years, I know the lingo)
Ettiquete(street) 2 (yes, I can hang with the homies)
Ettiquete(corp) 1 (still learning this one, it helps when you try to
get a job)
Special Skill:
Devious Plot Design 6 (I did start the madness that turned into Omega Island
on shadowtk)
General Evil 8 (no explanation)
NERPS Herding 6 (these two are
Widget use 5 inexplicable)
Obviously the special skills are there for humor, the rest are reasonably
accurate with others left as defaults!
DE
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 16:52:42 EDT
Reply-To: hmangold@*******.AC.RUNET.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
Comments: To: shadowrn@*****.nic.surfnet.nl
Comments: Resent-From: Dark Elf <VESPOSIT@**vm.sunysb.edu>
Comments: Originally-From: Hal Mangold <hmangold@*******.AC.RUNET.EDU>
From: Dark Elf <VESPOSIT@****.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject: Skills: DING! Round Four
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
TRUST ME! THE SKILL WEB IS EVIL! THE ILLUMINATI PUT IT IN THE
SHADOWRUN RULES TO DESTROY US ALL!!! WE MUST STAMP OUT THIS SCOURGE BEFORE
IT IS TOO LATE!!!!
Castagir
hmangold@*******.ac.runet.edu
---------------------------------------------
To which I say---YOU'RE WRONG!!!!! THE LEGION OF DYNAMIC DISCORD PUT IT IN TO
COUNTER THE ILLUMINATI'S ATTEMPTS TO IMPOSE A RESTRICTIVE ORDER ON ROLE-
PLAYING GAMES!!!
Just look at the thing! The problem with inventing new skills is that there
is no way to determine how to place them on the skill web! The skill web is
a chaotic tangle of interrelationships between skills that the Dark Lord
game designers on high decided would work! Let's say you want to add in the
skill "widget use" Now we all know that using widgets is similar to using
computers, so there should be some connection there. We also know that
widget use is closely related to Quickness, so there should be some kind of
connection there. This raises the questions how many nodes do you intervene?
and doea this allow bizzare things like using a widget by defaulting from
firearms (clearly widgets have nothing to do with firearms as we all know),
or piloting a Nightwraith fighter bomber defaulting from widget use!
Also, does the new skill web addition allow easier default paths between skills
that shouldn't have easier default paths? Lets say a character with firearms
skill wants to jimmy a maglock (i don't have the book handy so we'll say that
the default takes you through X nodes). Now when we add in widget use, there
is a path through widget use that only goes through X - 1 nodes!!!!
While this is purely hypothetical, these issues can be a major problem when you
try to alter as arbitrary seeming (at times) a structure as the skill web is.
I have used an imaginary abstract skill (widget use) to avoid people saying
why, there's no way that widget use can link firearms and magical theory? etc..
Now if I had used the well known skill NERPS herding, there would be a problem,
because everyone knows that NERP herding is a direct combination of culinary
arts, ettiquete(inside jokes), and Armed Combat(wet carp thwapping), thus
providing a previously unknown way to cook a gourmet meal by telling jokes
to your friends while hitting them over the head with a wet carp.
All this silliness comes up because in an actual adventure, the on paper
version of Dark Elf (as opposed to the real life version on shadowtk)
saved a teammates life in a peculiar way. Grimjaw (a Troll physad, was
the recipient of a deadly wound courtesy of a fed-ex security guard with
an uzi and an attitude. After the firefight, the team gathers around Grimjaw
and says, OK who's got first aid and a medkit. We all looked at each other
and waited for someone to come forward. After about a minute the GM says, OK
does anyone have anything close. The team then looks at DE and says, hey, how
close is electronics? Well, my reasonably good electronics skill with a
+8 default (correct me if I forgot the exact number) rolls and gets one 6.
Lucky for grimjaw that that one six rolled up to approximately a 21, enough
to overcome the fact that he was lying in a pool of blood in a smoke filled
room while a psycho elf poked at him with screwdrivers and soldering irons
in an attempt to keep him from dying before docwagon got there. It was the
luckiest roll I've ever made, and sice then I burned some karma to learn to
do first aid the right way. I still to this day wonder how attempting to
install an old 80486 microprocessor gives you any clue how to remove bullets,
stich and pressure bandage gunshot wounds etc... The best rationale I could
come up with is that DE looked at the pile of meat on the floor and said to
himself, hmmm, that mass of bleeding flesh looks like that circuit board I
built last week in a strange kinda way. And then proceeded to cauterize using
a micro soldering iron, and stich using fiber-optics...
truth is stranger than fiction!
And it's all a plot anyway!
DE
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 18:56:41 EDT
Reply-To: Robert Link <link@*****.PHYSICS.FSU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Robert Link <link@*****.PHYSICS.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Skills: DING! Round Four
In-Reply-To: Dark Elf's message of Wed,
21 Apr 1993 16:52:42 EDT
<9304212224.AA05876@*****.physics.fsu.edu>
All this silliness comes up because in an actual adventure, the on
paper version of Dark Elf (as opposed to the real life version on
shadowtk) saved a teammates life in a peculiar way. Grimjaw (a
Troll physad, was the recipient of a deadly wound courtesy of a
fed-ex security guard with an uzi and an attitude. After the
firefight, the team gathers around Grimjaw and says, OK who's got
first aid and a medkit. We all looked at each other and waited for
someone to come forward. After about a minute the GM says, OK does
anyone have anything close. The team then looks at DE and says,
hey, how close is electronics? Well, my reasonably good
electronics skill with a +8 default (correct me if I forgot the
exact number) rolls and gets one 6. Lucky for grimjaw that that
one six rolled up to approximately a 21, enough to overcome the
fact that he was lying in a pool of blood in a smoke filled room
while a psycho elf poked at him with screwdrivers and soldering
irons in an attempt to keep him from dying before docwagon got
there. It was the luckiest roll I've ever made, and sice then I
burned some karma to learn to do first aid the right way. I still
to this day wonder how attempting to install an old 80486
microprocessor gives you any clue how to remove bullets, stich and
pressure bandage gunshot wounds etc... The best rationale I could
come up with is that DE looked at the pile of meat on the floor and
said to himself, hmmm, that mass of bleeding flesh looks like that
circuit board I built last week in a strange kinda way. And then
proceeded to cauterize using a micro soldering iron, and stich
using fiber-optics...
This came up in our game once as well. The poor phys.ad. got geeked,
and the medkit blew its roll, so it fell to me to try to patch him up,
using my closest skill (hey, I'm the team rigger; I just drive the
getaway car--anything else is not in my contract). So, using some
Karma pool, combined with some extremely good luck, I managed to
stabilize him. I figure the dialog went something like this:
"So, what seems to be the problem? Are we ready to fly yet?"
"No, Wolf got shot, and this piece of drek medkit is on the fritz
again. Remind me to send in for that money back guarantee. So, do you
think you can fix him?"
"Let me take a look. Well, hell, the damn thing's busted (WHACK!
WHACK!, as I pound on his chest). Funny, that always works with the
Trid. Hand me that toolkit over there."
"Sure, here. Don't you think we should do something about that
bleeding?"
"Yeah, just let me get this soldering iron warmed up, and we'll try to
lock that thing down. Any idea where this came from (holds up
miscellaneous organ)?"
"No."
"Hmmm. Well, we'll just plug it back in here (mutters something
barely audible about stray capacitance). There, that oughta do it.
Hand me that generator over there, and we'll try giving 'er a little
juice."
. . . and so forth. Hey, if it's stupid, but it works, then it ain't
stupid, right?
-rpl
"No damnation without representation!"
-David E. Collins
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 00:51:14 BST
Reply-To: "P. Steele" <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "P. Steele" <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Med Kits
Just a point I thought I ought to bring up with the personnel skills debate
just starting. It's to do with med kits.
One of the posts (sorry I can't remember who) mentioned that the poor rigger
had to default and use karma pool and some obscure skill like car to heal a
comrade in arms.
Well my character (Powerhouse) recently paid a decker alot of money (about
50K) to get a biotech 6 chip incorporated into a medkit. So now I have an
effective biotech skill of 6 even though my character knows nothing about the
subject and has no skillwires or datajack to be able to access such chips.
This is one way round the medkit problem. Though I would say it is subject
to GM approval.
The Powerhouse
--
Phillip Steele |
|
P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk |
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 10:15:12 EST
Reply-To: Craig Ryhorchuk <craigr@******.CEC.EDU.AU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Craig Ryhorchuk <craigr@******.CEC.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Toyz II
In-Reply-To: <m0nlXwc-000538C@******.cec.edu.au>; from "Jason Carter,
Nightstalker" at Apr 20, 93 10:03 pm
> Napalm (Igniting and non-igniting) - Napalm burns on contact. It doesn't need
> to be lit, becauce if it comes in contact with flesh, it burns. I could be
> wrong, but my dad (a Vietman Vet) told me about people who would get hit with
> napalm, jump in water to stop it from burning, and when they came out it started
> burning all over again (if I remember the story right).
>
Well petrol burns your skin even if it isn't lit (if there is enough to
do the job before it evaporates I suppose), and it's one of the
ingredients in napalm if I remember correctly, and I'm sure some of the other
stuff isn't going to be too good for you either. I think one of the other
things is the stuff they make styrofoam from, and it's pretty toxic.
Although I'm sure it's not as bad if it's not actually on fire.
- Craig.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 18:13:22 -0500
Reply-To: "Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Gyro-jets.
]You're right, they would make a wonderful addition to ShadowRun, and
]yes, they do exist -- Flair has a catalog that lists them.
]Flair, do you still have that catalog? I think the list price was about
]$2.50 a bullet. (That may be a bit high, but it's still pretty absurd.)
Listen here, you oversized, underbrained miserable excuse for a bipedal
crustacean! The name is Flare, not Flair. You must have me confused with
some lowlife actor-wannabe.
Yes. The gyrojet rounds exist in 'real" life. The FBI has been playing with
them for years now as an experimental type. They (so far as I will let on)
require a gyrojet gun, specifically designed for the difference in the shells
used.
I'll check the price in the catalog I have, but $2.5 sounds about right (I
figure that $$ are only good for two sigfigs. *hah*). They are prohibitively
expensive.
The other problem is range. The suckers aren't really great until they go at
least 150 ft. Then, they attain maximum velocity. I have heard of toys that
make that a 50ft length, but they are relatively new announcements and not
sufficiently supported as of yet.
-Ethan Court
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 19:10:14 -0900
Reply-To: "ACAD1A::KSGWA" <KSGWA@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: The Mage of the Realms <KSGWA@******.BITNET>
Subject: Why Allies.... Thanks....
Thanks for all the resposes on why having an ally would be good. The way they
came across as being harmfull to me is that the book says that once it
grows in power it will go free....
BTW: When it goes free even if it sticks around doesn't the mage still loose
1 point of magic???
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 23:35:28 -0400
Reply-To: aa2486@*******.lorain.oberlin.edu
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Matt Jadud <aa2486@*******.LORAIN.OBERLIN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Toyz
Just a note on the ammo types presented, primarily the
DPU flechete rounds, or any rounds used in the entire game
system. A DPU round is extremely dense and heavy, working
primarily under the principle that a very dense warhead (Uranium
weighs approxamately 6-8 times more than steel per unit volume)
travelling at high speed will just push through defenses
(such as tank hulls).
For this reason, I would consider limiting DPU ammo
to larger bore weapons, such as LMGs and higher, and also
include a vehicular weapon damage then for these weapons.
Flechete would be more effective as "human" tank killers.
Also, I wouldn't give players this ammo. I really
hate having to constantly come up with new NPC's...
--
"With the whine of transducers coming on Mr Spock beams
off into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas,
a dimension of sight.. and sound..."
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 23:44:16 -0400
Reply-To: aa2486@*******.lorain.oberlin.edu
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Matt Jadud <aa2486@*******.LORAIN.OBERLIN.EDU>
Subject: Skill Web - Round Pi!
Why not disregard the skill web in your own personal
campaign if you don't like it? Pretty simple, if you ask me.
--
"With the whine of transducers coming on Mr Spock beams
off into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas,
a dimension of sight.. and sound..."
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 23:55:00 -0400
Reply-To: aa2486@*******.lorain.oberlin.edu
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Matt Jadud <aa2486@*******.LORAIN.OBERLIN.EDU>
Subject: Medkit Chips
Exsqueeze me? Im sorry, but think twice before you
get suckered again. Payin 50K for a biotech 6 chip in a medkit
is fine - the combined knowlege of Grays Anatomy and every
other medical guide may be there, but...
Can your character really tell which little lump
of red flesh to cut out and which to leave in when he begins working
on some poor chummer who doesn't know better? That chip in the
medkit does NOT give physical ability - its just another book.
--
"With the whine of transducers coming on Mr Spock beams
off into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas,
a dimension of sight.. and sound..."
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 22:54:15 CDT
Reply-To: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shadowtk - the list (fwd)
Do you know where I could find a copy of procmail? ftp?
csm2747
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
| Chad Mawson *-* Nebraska Weseleyan University <> Lincoln, Nebraska *-* |
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 22:59:33 CDT
Reply-To: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Subject: Medkit Chips
Reply-To: aa2486@*******.lorain.oberlin.edu
> Exsqueeze me? Im sorry, but think twice before you
> on some poor chummer who doesn't know better? That chip in the
> medkit does NOT give physical ability - its just another book.
Whoa! Discussion! How do you KNOW that it won't work?
Explain a little better please.
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
| Chad Mawson *-* History Major, Nebraska Weseleyan University *-* |
| Internet e-mail: csm2747@******.nebrwesleyan.edu Lincoln, Nebraska |
| |
| ->-> 13. If your attack is going well, you have walked into an ambush <-<-
|
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 23:02:13 CDT
Reply-To: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Subject: THWAP!
TO MYSELF! Sorry, I should have thought a little more. Thanks.
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
| Chad Mawson *-* History Major, Nebraska Weseleyan University *-* |
| Internet e-mail: csm2747@******.nebrwesleyan.edu Lincoln, Nebraska |
| |
| ->-> 13. If your attack is going well, you have walked into an ambush <-<-
|
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 23:07:38 -0500
Reply-To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Medkit Chips
In-Reply-To: (null)
On Wed, 21 Apr 1993, Chad S. Mawson wrote:
> Reply-To: aa2486@*******.lorain.oberlin.edu
>
> > Exsqueeze me? Im sorry, but think twice before you
>
> > on some poor chummer who doesn't know better? That chip in the
> > medkit does NOT give physical ability - its just another book.
>
> Whoa! Discussion! How do you KNOW that it won't work?
How CAN it work. A skillchip is designed to work with skillwires by
giving you the ability to do the work, not just the knowledge.
If you mount it in a medkit, how can you use it?
[> Robert Hayden ____ <] Black Holes result from God
[> \ /__ <] dividing the universe by zero.
[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ / <]
[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ <] # include std_disclaimer.h
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 21:10:55 -0700
Reply-To: HAHN@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: stefan hahn <HAHN@***.EDU>
Subject: Toyz 4 da' Boyz
Excuse me, but I thought things like DPU were those things Players Were Not
Meant To Know. In our game you're damn lucky to come up with a few rounds
of APDS. The street index for something as exotic as DPU would be
Astronomical, and don't even think about Dikoting it or something wierd
like that.
About the only ways you'll get away with this drek:
1.Being Military personnel
2.Being high-level corp security
3.building it in the basement yourself at great hazard to life and
limb.
Option #3 is about all that's available to those of us in the shadows, and
I, for one, am not about to try. Some of us value our fingers.
--Blindside
-30-
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 23:18:48 -0500
Reply-To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Toyz 4 da' Boyz
In-Reply-To: (null)
On Wed, 21 Apr 1993, stefan hahn wrote:
> About the only ways you'll get away with this drek:
> 1.Being Military personnel
> 2.Being high-level corp security
> 3.building it in the basement yourself at great hazard to life and
> limb.
> Option #3 is about all that's available to those of us in the shadows, and
> I, for one, am not about to try. Some of us value our fingers.
4) Steal ammo from Military
5) Steal ammo from Corps
6) Steal ammo from irradiated nut in his basement.
7) Get a military supply seargent really toasted and invited him to
"give" some to you.
8) After you've gunned down a dozen DPU armed soldiers, take their ammo
:)
[> Robert Hayden ____ <] Black Holes result from God
[> \ /__ <] dividing the universe by zero.
[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ / <]
[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ <] # include std_disclaimer.h
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 23:18:12 CDT
Reply-To: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Subject: Toyz
Reply-To: HAHN@***.EDU
Subject: Toyz 4 da' Boyz
My players tend to have some pretty good contacts, and when they come up
with viable explanations, I let them role-play trying to get some powerful
stuff. It makes for a pretty crazy game, but it's generally a lot of fun
watching the role-play/begging that goes on. I also get to drain their
coffers that way a little bit too. :-)
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
| Chad Mawson *-* History Major, Nebraska Weseleyan University *-* |
| Internet e-mail: csm2747@******.nebrwesleyan.edu Lincoln, Nebraska |
| |
| ->-> 13. If your attack is going well, you have walked into an ambush <-<-
|
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 21:14:50 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Toyz!
>> Just a note on the ammo types presented, primarily the
>>DPU flechete rounds, or any rounds used in the entire game
>>system. A DPU round is extremely dense and heavy, working
>>primarily under the principle that a very dense warhead (Uranium
>>weighs approxamately 6-8 times more than steel per unit volume)
>>travelling at high speed will just push through defenses
>>(such as tank hulls).
>> For this reason, I would consider limiting DPU ammo
>>to larger bore weapons, such as LMGs and higher, and also
>>include a vehicular weapon damage then for these weapons.
>>Flechete would be more effective as "human" tank killers.
Good idea, but one problem. LMGs are not large bore weapons. They use the
same type of ammo as Assault Rifles.
>> Also, I wouldn't give players this ammo. I really
>>hate having to constantly come up with new NPC's...
Anything NPC have, the players will have. They might (and probably will) have
to kill them to get it, but they'll have it none the less.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 16:12:06 -0500
Reply-To: IAN <U96_JHURLEY1@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: IAN <U96_JHURLEY1@******.BITNET>
Subject: Threat Rating
I find that threat ratings for NPC's are either over- or underbalancing.
An NPC with a TR of 2-3 can't dodge for his life, while a NPC with a 5-6
TR will not only be able to dodge many attacks, but will then turn around
and be able to roll 12-14 dice against (usually in firearms) a T# of 2!.
And depending on how it is done, an NPC with a TR of 5-6 has an effective
Combat pool of 15-20!
One solution for this is to treat threat ratings as a Karma pool for the NPC.
Low level goons have a 1-3. This, combined with their generally low stats/
skills, means that the PC's will be able to take them one-on-one. Major
villains, with their Threat Ratings of 6 or so (And I did not make up that
number, that is from a published adventure. She also had wired-3 and
Firearms-6. The PC's ended manabolting her when she popped out of
cover to take down another PC.) will give the PC's a major workout. The
best part of this is that you don't have to do as much work with the published
modules.
If you don't like this, use some other system. I would like to hear comments
on this, though.
(BTW: Except for this, I am using vanilla rules from SRII, except for more meta-
humans.)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 09:19:07 -0500
Reply-To: "Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Med-kits. Only a dollar. (Too bad we're using Y).
I do know that there is a rule ~somewhere~ in the basic black about assisting.
You could think of the chip as assisting, if you're inclined to be generous.
Then again, all you need is a mini computer on the medkit (a la personal
secretary) capable of receiving input from the user dealing with specific
wounds, symptoms, and spewing forth all of the diagnoses and courses of action
to take. At least, that's the rationale for suggesting an assist.
On another note, has anyone ever invested in an automated medkit? Namely,
something like a personal vouch, placed over the heart like a trauma patch that
would be capable of doing limited diagnosis by sensor, and then administering
whatever drugs are contained within it which are called for. We are *not*
talking surgery-capable, but rather something which could administer
antibiotics, antiseptics, antivirals, poison antidote, perhaps even dump a
liter of iodine into the person's bloodstream. . .
-Ethan Court.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 10:47:24 -0400
Reply-To: aa2239@*******.lorain.oberlin.edu
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Matt Vanek <aa2239@*******.LORAIN.OBERLIN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Med-kits. Only a dollar. (Too bad we're using Y).
>
>I do know that there is a rule ~somewhere~ in the basic black about assisting.
>You could think of the chip as assisting, if you're inclined to be generous.
>Then again, all you need is a mini computer on the medkit (a la personal
>secretary) capable of receiving input from the user dealing with specific
>wounds, symptoms, and spewing forth all of the diagnoses and courses of action
>to take. At least, that's the rationale for suggesting an assist.
>
>On another note, has anyone ever invested in an automated medkit? Namely,
>something like a personal vouch, placed over the heart like a trauma patch that
>would be capable of doing limited diagnosis by sensor, and then administering
>whatever drugs are contained within it which are called for. We are *not*
>talking surgery-capable, but rather something which could administer
>antibiotics, antiseptics, antivirals, poison antidote, perhaps even dump a
>liter of iodine into the person's bloodstream. . .
Yah, the only problem with this is what happens in the case of a
malfunction...You get pumped full of drugs. So, while you may feel real
good for a while, you don't know how these drugs will react with each other.
you could have a realy bad day...
later,
iron claw
--
See the constellation ride across the sky
No cigar, no lady on his arm
Just a guy made of dots and lines -TMBG
Huh? Nevermind. I donno, I just got here.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 09:49:01 -0500
Reply-To: "Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Black Book martial arts. (fwd)
As requested, here is the forwarded message. . .
From: "P. Steele" <P.C.Steele@*********.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <AA11117.199304212235@****.ncl.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Black Book martial arts.
To: JEK5313@*****.TAMU.EDU
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 93 23:35:27 BST
In-Reply-To: <199304211832.AA16121@*******.ncl.ac.uk>; from "Dark Thought
Publications." at Apr 21, 93 12:20 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Ethan Court wrote (as a P.S. to his main post)
> (ob-Shadowrun-screw: Last time I tell a character that he can start a sammi
> with "no more than wired 2." He ended up getting that, plus a softlink-4,
> cyber mag 3, smartlink, and every freakin non-active chip in the book. Teach
> me to try to lessen the work for me. . . )
>
>
> And, whilst on the back of that particular animal, how does anyone, if
> they do, make the cyber mag3-smartlink combo less of a screw?
Well one way round it is to adopt the pseudo rules for combat pools which I
posted a while ago <god I'm pissed, I've just hit delete key 15 or so times>.
This effectively uses different TN's for dodging and negates the advantage of
mag 3. On a more practical note, cause many people (inlcuding the dark lord on
high) don't agree with that method you can always insist that changing the
focus on the eyes takes up a free action. So if in one action a sam tries to
shoot at two oppoents 1 at short range and 1 at long range (for eg) you then
clobber him with the new TN. <God I really am pissed. But it is thoroughly
recommended. Go to a real ale festival then come and real your mail at
11:30 pm>
The Powerhouse
--
Phillip Steele |
|
P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk |
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 11:54:05 -0400
Reply-To: "Brian D. Neumann" <s85963@**.GETTYSBURG.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Brian D. Neumann" <s85963@**.GETTYSBURG.EDU>
Subject: Ally going Free
In reference to the question of what happens when the Ally goes free. Yes
the mage does lose this point of magic. If the Ally sticks around this is
still a benifit to the mage because you still have a fairly powerfull
astral entity as a friend and protector. If the Ally does not stick
around the mage will probably try to get his point of magic back by
banishing the former Ally. I don't have the rule book with me but I seem
to remember that if the former Ally is permanently destroyed then the
conjuring mage gets their one point of magic back.
As a side note to those with Allies. How many of you summoned them as
part of an initiation. I am curious because the book says that you don't
lose the point of magic initially invested in them when you do it this
way, and in addition the ally is probably more loyal than otherwise.
Brian D. Neumann Phone 717-337-7192
s85963@**.gettysburg.edu Gettysburg College
s85963@*****.bitnet Box 1418
Gettysburg PA, 17325
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 12:50:08 -0400
Reply-To: Almighty Cthulhu <cthulhu@*****.STD.COM>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Almighty Cthulhu <cthulhu@*****.STD.COM>
Subject: Re: Toyz!
In-Reply-To: <199304220456.AA04006@*****.std.com>
About these DUAP flechette rounds....
Right now in RL there are a number of Armour defeating rounds available in
calibers ranging from 9mm to .50 BMG.
The more common types are the military grade bang bang found for such
lovely weapons as the LMG, MMG and HMG and, my personal favorite, Miniguns
of all shapes and sizes.
Assault rifle AP rounds are rare as your they will not be issued out to
your average grunt/corp sercurity. If you run into someone using this fun
stuff...someone wants you REALLY bad or somebody big is backing the people
who are after you.
Also, Handgun AP rounds are even more rare than Assault rifle AP. Consider
handgun AP rounds to be property of either spooks << NSA, CIA, FBI etc etc >>
or some SERIOUS FRAGGIN corporate company goons. If they're corp and
packin this stuff...be advised that this ammo will more than likely be the
LEAST of your worries....
Just my opinion....if you want AP, AP-T, DUAP, DUAP-T and all the others
to be runnin around in your game...go for it...
Just be prepared to make up LOTS of new NPC's....
Later
Paul
aka "The Devils of truth steal the
Tycho souls of the free..."
aka --- NIN
Jackoff the Decker
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 12:37:47 CDT
Reply-To: bellovar@***.WISC.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Christopher Bellovary <bellovar@***.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Medkit Chips
>
> How CAN it work. A skillchip is designed to work with skillwires by
> giving you the ability to do the work, not just the knowledge.
>
> If you mount it in a medkit, how can you use it?
>
I would give it a certain amount of a benefit, particularily
if you bought a chip not for skillwires, but as a reference computer
chip for idiots like us. =) (fill in the blank of the skill you need
but lack) The reason I say this is because I don't know how to replace
the clutch on my younger brother's car, but with the proper manuals, my
older brother and I did. There ought to be _some_ merit here.
-- CrossFire --
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 11:11:57 -0700
Reply-To: HAHN@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: stefan hahn <HAHN@***.EDU>
Subject: Lethality & Toyz
Okay, the argument is now dividing into camps of:
1. Techno-fiends who want every trick in the book and then some for
wiping out vast numbers of PC's and making the toughest challange the GM's,
to come up with truly threatening NPC's. These people run in high-powered,
high-body count games and probably lose a few PC's every adventure, unless
your GM wimps out a lot.
2. Genre-fiends with whatever miserable equipment they can scrounge
off the streets or improvise, who would consider themselves lucky to have a
full clip of anything.
3. Those of us in the middle, with a few fancy gadgets but mainly
plain-vanilla stuff. Only the Sams have the heavy weaponry but the rest of
us are no pushovers. I'm personally satisfied with a few clips of
Explosive.
In other news, Howzabout a Mono-Swiss army knife?
Or better yet, a spool of Monowire that retracts like a tape measure. It'd
make a heckuva garrote, and be great for slicing cheese! A million
household uses!
-30-
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 13:14:44 CDT
Reply-To: bellovar@***.WISC.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Christopher Bellovary <bellovar@***.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Skills : DING! Round Six, Seven? I don't know. =)
(Note attached at bottom - if you wish - skip to it.)
********************************************************************************
> What do you mean by that they should just be defaults, are you implying that a
> person cannot have skill of level one.
Well - the way I figure it, we aren't making `you', merely a character
who can do what you can. There is a slight difference in my eyes. Needless to
say, we all agree you have skill levels above that of the average starting
shadowrunner. You also have had a far better education than most shadowrunners
as well, so this all makes sense.
> >Since Rifle and Pistol are both concentrations of Firearms, this is one skill
> >Firearms: 4. 4 Points.
> I can live with that one, but if you saw my skill with other types of firearms
> you might not agree.
Yes, that might be true, but in that case, giving you 4 points in the
skill is actually higher than your `real' ratings for dealing with other
firearms, but what else do we do? So the `character' we are developing is
slightly more knowledgable here. Not much we can do. Give and Take.
> >>>Sociology( History ) 4
> >Sounds like general education. Points held in Reserve.
> Nonsense, I read books on history as a hobby. My favorites are Greek, Roman,
> Persian, and Egyptian.
3 is the rating for someone who knows what he is doing, so 4 means you
would really know your stuff. Not saying you don't, but as a hobby that just
seems rather high.
> >>>Tai Chi 3 ( Ah.. exercise )
> >Crossfire pointed out that Tai Chi is a martial art, thus this skill should
be
> >Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts Style(Tai Chi)) 1(1(3)). Specialization, 1
Point.
> Sorry to disappoint Mr. Crossfire but Tai Chi is definitely not a martial art.
> I think that he is probably thinking of Chou Li Fut, which I believe is
derived
> from Tai Chi.
I am sorry - but I have seen Tai-Chi as a combat art. At low levels
Tai-chi is merely relaxation techniques and centering, I imagine to attain
the state of `mushin' but at high levels it is actually an art of self-defence.
In any case - it is based off the art of self-defence, so it can be
viewed, as Nightstalker said, as a specialization of Martial arts. Merely what
you have been trained in at this point is not usable in combat. And if you
still
want to call it an exercise, be my guest - then it is athletics. *shrug*
> >>>Etiquette( Sciences ) 2 ( An interesting skill needing to be improved
)
> >Could be a Charisma or other Etiquette Default. Please elaborate. Held in
> >Reserve.
> First ShadowRun states that every subculture has its own etiquette skill. You
> can not talk to most scientists, that I have met, like an average person if
you
> want to be taken seriously.
I am a senior in Chemical Engineering and have worked with engineers in
the field. It is not a matter of an etiquette, merely ` do you know what you
are
talking about?' If so - fine, good. That isn't really an etiquette.
******************************************************
****************************
Ok realize, perhaps we have trimmed back a couple skills more than
necessary, and defaulted some as well, but in contrast, there are also some
skills that we could seriously _attempt_ to argue, but it simply is easier to
trust you assessment of your abilities, after all, how can we tell many of them
just over the computer, we can't. No problem.
There is one other thing. Yes, perhaps many skills were trimmed back,
but also many of your skills that you do have aren't applicable in 2054. For
example, you have a good deal of experience with computers in 1993, however,
that
lacks any knowledge of matrix technology, decking/hacking (although I imagine
you
have some skill at hacking - just not 2054 level), cyber-implant programming,
and
probably others I cannot recall. To learn this extra knowledge, perhaps the
character who represents you could not have spent as much time, say, reading
history, or have a lower overall skill in the subject due to the extra coverage
that is required. *shrug*
Overall, I think it is a decent representation of your abilities
transferred to a 2054 character. Sure, it is not a perfect match, but neither
is it 2054. Acceptable?
Chris Bellovary
-- CrossFire --
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 13:37:17 EDT
Reply-To: Dark Elf <VESPOSIT@****.SUNYSB.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Dark Elf <VESPOSIT@****.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject: Skill Webs are EVIL
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of defaulting.
The problem is that there is no organized mechanism for working out
defaults for new skills. It can be done, but finding a good place for
something on the web takes a good deal of trial and error to get it right.
The system is good, but it is hell to expand!
DE
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 13:37:44 -0500
Reply-To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Medkit Chips
In-Reply-To: (null)
On Thu, 22 Apr 1993, Christopher Bellovary wrote:
> I would give it a certain amount of a benefit, particularily
> if you bought a chip not for skillwires, but as a reference computer
> chip for idiots like us. =) (fill in the blank of the skill you need
> but lack) The reason I say this is because I don't know how to replace
> the clutch on my younger brother's car, but with the proper manuals, my
> older brother and I did. There ought to be _some_ merit here.
Then what you are talking about is not a skillsoft, but a knowsoft (I
think that is right, I don't have STech with me). A knowsoft is just raw
info (library) while a skillsoft is actual skillwire instructions giving
you the skills to do it.
[> Robert Hayden ____ <] Black Holes result from God
[> \ /__ <] dividing the universe by zero.
[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ / <]
[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ <] # include std_disclaimer.h
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 13:11:56 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Threat Rating and Karma Pools
>>I find that threat ratings for NPC's are either over- or underbalancing.
>>An NPC with a TR of 2-3 can't dodge for his life, while a NPC with a 5-6
>>TR will not only be able to dodge many attacks, but will then turn around
>>and be able to roll 12-14 dice against (usually in firearms) a T# of 2!.
>>And depending on how it is done, an NPC with a TR of 5-6 has an effective
>>Combat pool of 15-20!
Now I could be wrong, but I thought Treat Ratings were supposed to replace
combat pools. The purpose was to keep the GM from having to remember exactly
how much combat (or any other) pool each and every NPC has left.
>>One solution for this is to treat threat ratings as a Karma pool for the NPC.
>>Low level goons have a 1-3. This, combined with their generally low stats/
>>skills, means that the PC's will be able to take them one-on-one. Major
>>villains, with their Threat Ratings of 6 or so (And I did not make up that
>>number, that is from a published adventure. She also had wired-3 and
>>Firearms-6. The PC's ended manabolting her when she popped out of
>>cover to take down another PC.) will give the PC's a major workout. The
>>best part of this is that you don't have to do as much work with the published
>>modules.
Giving NPC Karma Pools is a particularly nasty (and effective) way of making
them more dangerous. Just ask Huth. However I would not advise giving the
Low level goons (read cannonfodder) karma pools. The purpose of cannonfodder is
to either draw fire away form the big guys (gotta kill them before they get
lucky and hurt someone) or to just slow the heroes down (damn it, we would have
been gone if these guards didn't keep showing up). In either case they are
meant to die hard and fast. Giving them Karma Pools slows down the rate of
attrision.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstaker
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 16:49:33 EST
Reply-To: X52K000 <X52K%SLUMUS.bitnet@******.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: X52K000 <X52K%SLUMUS.bitnet@******.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: No exits yet.
Greetings,
SIGNOFF SHADOWRN, UNSUB SHADOWRN, and UNSUBSCRIBE SHADOWRN have all
failed to work so, if anyone out there knows who the listowner is, could
you please send me the address so that I can request assistence in
getting of this list? Thank you for your time and assistence in this
matter.
An ally in eternal darkness,
Nightshine (a.k.a. Jeff Carey)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 16:02:22 -0500
Reply-To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: No exits yet.
In-Reply-To: (null)
On Thu, 22 Apr 1993, X52K000 wrote:
> Greetings,
> SIGNOFF SHADOWRN, UNSUB SHADOWRN, and UNSUBSCRIBE SHADOWRN have all
> failed to work so, if anyone out there knows who the listowner is, could
> you please send me the address so that I can request assistence in
> getting of this list? Thank you for your time and assistence in this
> matter.
The name of the ShadowRN listowner is:
GT2150@*******.BITNET
[> Robert Hayden ____ <] Black Holes result from God
[> \ /__ <] dividing the universe by zero.
[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ / <]
[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ <] # include std_disclaimer.h
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 14:28:43 -0700
Reply-To: MATUSKEY@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Ed Matuskey <MATUSKEY@***.EDU>
Subject: Telnet Teetot
Could someone please tell me how to access Teetot.acusd via Telnet? I saw
the info on here before, but don't remember it. I'm referring to Telnet,
not Ftp: I already know how to get in through there. Thanks.
-Ed
PS: I'm referring to how you sign in, and what password to use. Thanx!
-Highlander
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 20:01:30 -0500
Reply-To: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: DANIEL WAISLEY <LGLUMKA@***.BITNET>
Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania
Subject: teetot
Teetot.acusd.edu
usdinfo
Boy do I LOVE that place!!!
Nightfox
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Waisley Lglumka@***.grove.iup.edu --------(-- IUP FENCING
SCA - Shire of Robledol, Households - Cryptic Demesne (fencing) + Brotherhood
of Agincourt (archery),
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry for any bad grammer or spelling, etc. My mind works at 637
thoughts per minute, and my hands at 1.2 letters per second
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 19:36:13 -0500
Reply-To: TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Rob Rubin <TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Various things
(If any of this was already covered, I'm sorry. The local has been doing
wonderous things and I've had a lot of reading to get done...) Sigh
Anyhow: ON skills: (I hear a collective sigh)
We once had a mage default from MAGICAL THEORY to STEALTH. He rolled upwards
of 37 on that one. It was a fun explanation:
"Remember when you stole your teachers spell book and hid in the dumpster for
an hour? You just remembered it all..."
He did it just to show that he could.
On Munchkining: (Something that was never formally brought up, but it's
always there...)
I had an idea, (Frightening, neh?) about the ultimate trick shooter...
Cybereye, optical mag 3, display link
Math SPU 4, Softlink 4 (With Geometry 6, Physics 6, Metalurgy 6, and firearms
B/R of 6)
And a Smartgun link.
Working in concert (With an encephalon, natch.) you could careen bullets off
of walls and HIT A GUY!
(The scene, a deserted street in Seattle. "Ok, yellerbelly. I'ma gonna shoot
a bullet offan that church bell, into the bar there, knock the cap off'n that
drink, then the bullet's gonna cut yer mohawk off'n that head of yours."
>BANG< [GONG] /crash\tink/ ker-pow! )
Or not.
What do you think, sirs?
-Tyger
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 23:03:52 EST
Reply-To: steven mancini <mancinis@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: steven mancini <mancinis@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Marriage, and kids
In-Reply-To: <9304202325.AA09460@******.cc.purdue.edu>; from "WOMBAT" at
Apr
20, 93 4:30 pm
To quote WOMBAT:
]
] Hi,
] Has anyone come up with some of the effects of marriage? I.E.
] is there any special advantages like an extra Karma pool or somehting?
] The way we play it, being married gives the couple an extra Karma pool
] when together. This pool is used for things like conception tests, and as
] a normal team pool as well. (Especially useful when husband is a Shaman
] and the wife is a Mage, This connection allows us to work together)
]
While dabling in this area- how about family? I role-play half
of a pair of twins who consistantly run together....
You think this Ork Samurai and his human mage sister should
get an isolated pool?
-Minotaur
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| "My Behaviour is Addictive Functioning in a Disease Process of Toxic |
| Co-dependency! I need holistic healing and Wellness before I'll |
| accept responsibility for my actions!" -Calvin, 1/21/93 |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 00:44:00 EDT
Reply-To: Last of the Brigadoons <MKNABUSCH@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Last of the Brigadoons <MKNABUSCH@******.BITNET>
Subject: tricky
Sounds like the same thing as the shot in robocop 2
Rent it and see if you haven't
Harlequin
-Aka Michael Knabusch
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 21:49:36 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Various things
>>We once had a mage default from MAGICAL THEORY to STEALTH. He rolled upwards
>>of 37 on that one. It was a fun explanation:
You can't default to Steath from Magical Theory! That's in direct violation
of the Skill Web. In case you didn't remember or never knew, you can not back-
track across the arrows in the skill web. That prevents such rediculous
defaults as this from happening.
>>I had an idea, (Frightening, neh?) about the ultimate trick shooter...
>>Cybereye, optical mag 3, display link
>>Math SPU 4, Softlink 4 (With Geometry 6, Physics 6, Metalurgy 6, and firearms
>> B/R of 6)
>>And a Smartgun link.
>>Working in concert (With an encephalon, natch.) you could careen bullets off
>>of walls and HIT A GUY!
I think this idea deserves the wet carp treatment.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 23:57:06 -0500
Reply-To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Various things
In-Reply-To: (null)
On Thu, 22 Apr 1993, Jason Carter, Nightstalker wrote:
> >>Cybereye, optical mag 3, display link
> >>Math SPU 4, Softlink 4 (With Geometry 6, Physics 6, Metalurgy 6, and firearms
> >> B/R of 6)
> >>And a Smartgun link.
>
> >>Working in concert (With an encephalon, natch.) you could careen bullets off
> >>of walls and HIT A GUY!
> I think this idea deserves the wet carp treatment.
Nah, the Wet carp is for outright stupidity or for something that makes no
sense. The above actually MAKES sense and is suitable prohibitive to make
it non-munchkin.
I'll give it the . . . uh . . . rubber-chicken award.
[> Robert Hayden ____ <] Black Holes result from God
[> \ /__ <] dividing the universe by zero.
[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ / <]
[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ <] # include std_disclaimer.h
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 01:38:10 -0500
Reply-To: "Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Various Things. ( why am I thinking: woman dancing on alps?)
Tyger:
]Anyhow: ON skills: (I hear a collective sigh)
]We once had a mage default from MAGICAL THEORY to STEALTH. He rolled upwards
]of 37 on that one. It was a fun explanation:
]"Remember when you stole your teachers spell book and hid in the dumpster for
]an hour? You just remembered it all..."
]He did it just to show that he could.
More like: "The somatic component of an invisibility spell involves a lot of
sneaking around, so let's try applying that to the real world."
Just remember: In the basic book, it says quite clearly that the most direct
path is not always the one taken by the GM.
I had an idea, (Frightening, neh?) about the ultimate trick shooter...
]Cybereye, optical mag 3, display link
]Math SPU 4, Softlink 4 (With Geometry 6, Physics 6, Metalurgy 6, and firearms
] B/R of 6)
]And a Smartgun link.
]Working in concert (With an encephalon, natch.) you could careen bullets off
]of walls and HIT A GUY!
](The scene, a deserted street in Seattle. "Ok, yellerbelly. I'ma gonna shoot
]a bullet offan that church bell, into the bar there, knock the cap off'n that
]drink, then the bullet's gonna cut yer mohawk off'n that head of yours."
]>BANG< [GONG] /crash\tink/ ker-pow! )
More like: "Off the expressway, through that grove, off the cement parkway,
through the window, off of the wall, off the backboard, nothing but net."
-Ethan Court
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 16:40:19 BST
Reply-To: "P. Steele" <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "P. Steele" <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: More on Medkits
Ok, the original theory behind incorporating the bitoech 6 skill chip into
the medkit went something like.
Hmm, I have this medkit with an effective skill of 3.
I wonder how I could improve that rating ?
Ah ha, I know I'll take the kit to a very hot decker/technician and get
him to incorporate a biotech 6 skill chip into it. I won't need skillwires
as I never did when it effectively just had a biotech 3 skill chip in.
Technician looks at it says, Hmm I might be able to get it to work but to
work at level 6 I'll need a level 9 chip.
After speaking with a doctor friend downloading the past 200 years of medical
journals onto the chip. Taking that to the technician he gets to work on
it. After a couple of months he comes back and says. Ok I got it working,
there you go a medkit with an effective skill of 6. By the way thats 50K you
owe me.
----
As to feasabilities. Why not ? Many things in shadowrun can be improved
at a price. This is all I did.
Is it unbalancing ? Well not really it is only a level 6 after all. I'm
not completly power mad.
As to would it work ? Well as I pointed out the med kit gives an effective
skill of 3 to anyone with or without skillwires. All I did was improve on
that. Admittedly the skill chip after the decker/technician messed with it
probably wouldn't ressemble a standard skill chip. But if it did why bother
paying him in the first place, as with electronics skill 4 I'm sure I could
have installed it myself.
Well comments/flames anticipated.... I'm also ready to duck.
The Powerhouse
--
Phillip Steele |
|
P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk |
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 11:26:29 -0500
Reply-To: TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Rob Rubin <TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Various skill webs...
Hey, Nightstalker:
Ok, I made an error. I shoulda mentioned we did that in FIRST edition. As
you might recall, First addition had no such thing as skill web arrows. As
such, one could default all over the web.
Sorry 'bout that. L week long lack of sleep maked you forget the smallest
things.
Like midterms... Gack.
-Tyger
(Badly in need of a weekend...)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 10:14:52 -0700
Reply-To: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Jeremy Roberson <ROBERSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Medkit 6
I don't see anything wrong with a Medkit modded to have an effective skill
level of 6. Of course, one could argue that to fully utilize some of those
skills, the medkit would also require additional tools, drugs, etc. But there
is no need for Skillwires.
Let me clarify that above point. Let's say a Doctor has a skill of 6. But if
he doesn't have any tools except a survival knife, his knowledge of how much
anastesia to use, which blood vessels to clamp, and where to draw the "x" isn't
going to matter much. I know that their is a chart of "conditions" modifiers,
but I don't recal any of them taking tools into account. There should be a
limiton just how much a medit can do, but 6 sounds acceptable.
it-picking: Why "incorporate a skill-9 chip to get a 6"? I realize the numbers
averge out, but why not just buy a 6-chip and replace it?
J Roberson
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 18:22:46 BST
Reply-To: "P. Steele" <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "P. Steele" <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Medkit 6
> it-picking: Why "incorporate a skill-9 chip to get a 6"? I realize the
numbers
> averge out, but why not just buy a 6-chip and replace it?
Well the theory behind this is that a skill 6 chip would need skill wires to
get full use of it otherwise the rating would be effectively downgraded by
the medkit to rating 3. So a skill 9 chip (and some mods to the medkit itself)
would probably be downgraded to a value 6. But these are just numbers I
came up with off the top of my head, really so I could help justify having
a skill 6 medkit.
The Powerhouse
--
Phillip Steele |
|
P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk |
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 12:41:35 -0500
Reply-To: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: New thread: how much is a point of karma worth?
I'm curious: how much is a point of karma worth?
i.e.
1) if you were to sell a point of karma to another member, how much do you
charge?
2) in an average run, for every point of karma you get, how much NuYen do you
get? Or are karma and money inversely related?
Just my .03 cents worth (before Count Taxula hits us)
Rev!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 18:53:06 BST
Reply-To: "P. Steele" <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "P. Steele" <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New thread: how much is a point of karma worth?
In-Reply-To: <199304231744.AA15050@*******.ncl.ac.uk>; from "The
Reverend" at
Apr 23, 93 12:41 pm
> I'm curious: how much is a point of karma worth?
> i.e.
> 1) if you were to sell a point of karma to another member, how much do you
> charge?
> 2) in an average run, for every point of karma you get, how much NuYen do you
> get? Or are karma and money inversely related?
Well you can't technically give someone else karma as it represents the time
and effort each individual has put into something. But under S1 we played that
a person could spend karma for another person if they needed an auto-success
or a re-roll. Under those situations when I GM'd I said to the player who
was giving the karma, how much do you want to get ? This usually led to an
intresting bargaining session between players. Though it usually ended up as
a "I'll do the same favour for you when you need it".
As to karma and money on a run, it varies some are high karma, high money,
others are low karma, low money. I don't like to think that I stick to any
formula otherwise the players get to know what to expect.
Quote "We only got 4 points of karma and 20 K for the job. There must have
been some cash somewhere."
All the team members look at the decker who frequently syphons off funds just
for himself.
"It wasn't me !" he claims. Though to no avail.
The Powerhouse
--
Phillip Steele |
|
P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk |
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 11:54:32 -0700
Reply-To: STALLINGS@****.COLORADO.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Mark Stallings <STALLINGS@****.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: Karma
In reply to the Reverend,
Sell Karma?!!!!?
I was unaware that Karma was "Sellable." It was my understanding
that Karma was a nebulous equation for the experience a character
gained during a run. How can you sell an experience? Or how can you
give an idea or concept gained for money?
I was also unaware that characters could give Karma to each other.
I feel that that would be a very bad Idea: "Give me all of your Karma
or I'll blow your throat out." Then why not have Karma draining spells
and Vampires that live off of Karma? Big time NOT!
--Moon Dancer
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 12:46:00 -0500
Reply-To: Dave Sherohman <esper@*****.IMA.UMN.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Dave Sherohman <esper@*****.IMA.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Stuff
Re: Improved MedKit chips
You could always just treat it like a Hermetic Library or Medicine Lodge during
spell research - if the MedKit has a higher rating that your Biotech skill, you
get an effective increase of one level of Biotech for each two levels the Kit's
skill exceeds yours. Actually gives you a reason to buy Biotech instead of just
getting a Kit with a rating 6 chip.
Re: Skill webs
Umm... In the SR2 skill web, there is _no_ connection whatsoever between
Stealth and Magical Theory...
Re: The Ultimate Trick Shooter
I like it, but I'd require him to have an Encephalon too (so you can
"multitask your cognitive needs"). I think he just might show up in my
campaign fairly soon... :)
esper@***.umn.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 13:28:38 -0500
Reply-To: TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Rob Rubin <TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: KARMA 4 SALE!!!
The other title was 'Instant Karma...'
Umm, a bit of feline storyteller here. A GM decided to run a 100 point karma
game (No munchkin calls, please.) He gave a rule that you could trade karma
for money. The exchange was 5,000 NuYen per point of karma. It was assuming
that the player never earned any Karma in their lives. (I can't tell you how
mane 'torker-wannabees' showed up... The real players showed with characters
that EARNED 100 karma...)
Just a bit of story telling. Nada more.
-Tyger
**********************************************
Hobbes Patrol
Fantasty / Pursuit Inc.
(Better Sig on the way, This is just a tester)
**********************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 15:05:42 EDT
Reply-To: loewenst@****.rutgers.edu
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: David Loewenstern <loewenst@******.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma
In-Reply-To: <9304231756.AA01932@****.rutgers.edu>
"STALLINGS@****.colorado.edu"
>>>>>[
Karma is not _directly_ sellable, but the issue of the "value" of a
point of karma comes up frequently. Here are some examples:
How much does it cost to get a mage to spell lock _increase body +4_
on you (over and above the cost of the lock itself)?
When you sacrifice karma to a free spirit, what are you sacrificing?
Could an enterprising "player" spirit pay people for karma, much as a
blood bank pays homeless folks for blood? What's a reasonable rate?
(Note: "whatever the market will bear" isn't an answer unless you're
prepared to estimate the size of the supply of karma.)
An initiate quickens a spell. He then tries to quicken the same spell
a second time, but this time fails because he doesn't have enough
karma. What is the (non-game-mechanical) reason the initiate gives
for why he can't quicken the second time?
And going on in this direction...
Can your character tell how much karma s/he has left?
]<<<<<
-- Quincunx < 15:05:34 / Apr 23 2054 >
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 12:46:10 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Various Skill webs...
>>Hey, Nightstalker:
>>Ok, I made an error. I shoulda mentioned we did that in FIRST edition. As
>>you might recall, First addition had no such thing as skill web arrows. As
>>such, one could default all over the web.
Yet another thing fixed in SRII.
>>Like midterms... Gack.
Midterms! I've got two weeks til finals!
>>-Tyger
>>(Badly in need of a weekend...)
(Aren't we all)
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 12:51:05 -0700
Reply-To: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Jeremy Roberson <ROBERSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Selling Karma
You cannot sell Karma! Karma is intangible, sort of good luck, experience,
and "how much the gods are watching you" Imagine trying to sell away your
life's experiences so that they were no longer yours. . .You cannot sell
somethng intangible.
(Selling Karma. . .Jeez. Next they'll want to sell their attributes)
:)
J Roberson
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 13:18:58 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Karma for Sale?
>>I'm curious: how much is a point of karma worth?
Whatever people will pay for them.
>>1) if you were to sell a point of karma to another member, how much do you
>> charge?
Any GM who would let you get away with this should be shot and hung! I've never
seen a RPG where characters were allowed to give or sell experience to another
character, and Karma is experience.
>>2) in an average run, for every point of karma you get, how much NuYen do you
>> get? Or are karma and money inversely related?
Karma and money have nothing to do with each other. You can have high karma,
low pay adventures, low karma, low pay adventures, high karma, high pay
adventures and low karma, high pay adventures. Karma is a reward for actions,
money is, well, money.
Powerhouse noted that his GM let people spend karma to buy other people auto-
successes and rerolls. That was rather nicely handled in SRII by the creation
of the team karma pool. Don't you just love SRII?
Quincunx brought up the actually valid points of spell locks, quickenings and
(actually he forgot this) foci creation. These all take karma to use/build.
Now there is not ruling about how much a quikening or spell lock would cost.
I'd dare say it was a manner of giving a mage enough money to do it (its a
seller's market!). Foci are of course very expensive. Now you know why. The
enchanter must pust a considerable amount of karam into each focus he makes. He
then charges the customer for it. Unfortunately I don't have the Grimoire on me
so I can't say how much it would cost.
On the question of Free Spirits (the only being which can actually accept
another's karma), I doubt there is any related monetary value. Nobody is going
to sell his karma for money to some damn spirit. Now services rendered, that's
another question. Before a free spirit would use it's powers for a person it
would require karma. This could of course get to be quite expensive. Now what
the character is giving the spirit is IMHO basically part of its life
experience. I would have to look up Karma in the rulebook to be sure, but it
sounds pretty good.
>>And going on in this direction...
>>Can your character tell how much karma s/he has left?
Unless your GM whats to keep track of all the characters karma and make them
do lame things like ask him, "Do I have enough karma to raise my computer to 7
yet?" or "Will I be about to quicken this spell at force 4?"
Of course if you (the GM) want to do this, it could be quite fun. In a highly
modified AD&D campaign (no cracks please) the DM is keeping track of all the
characters experience and of a mytical "Luck" score, which is more or less like
a karma pool. When we want to use it we say, "I want to buy a reroll", "I
want to pass this roll", or "How much luck to I have left?" In most cases
he
would say, your at about 2/3's max or your at 1/4 max luck. When you asked a
question he would usually tell you about how much (in terms of fractions of max)
it would hurt you. Of course none of us knows what are max lucks are, and it's
different for each character. Sound like fun?
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 19:20:13 CDT
Reply-To: bellovar@***.WISC.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Christopher Bellovary <bellovar@***.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma
> I was also unaware that characters could give Karma to each other.
> I feel that that would be a very bad idea.
I don't know, I think it ought to be possible, but should also be
role-played. Things like this could be seen in the movies all the time,
if you wish to see it that way. It could be things as simple as "By the
way kid.... don't miss." that giving the character a bit extra.
Completely optional, as I imagine a lot of people won't like the
idea at all, but if you make the players role-play it, it could be fun.
Karma could never be extorted or sold however. If this ever occurs to
your knowledge, then they simply both lose the Karma point.
Just my opinion.
Chris Bellovary
-- CrossFire --
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 20:39:13 -0500
Reply-To: Dave Sherohman <esper@*****.IMA.UMN.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Dave Sherohman <esper@*****.IMA.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: New thread: how much is a point of karma worth?
>I'm curious: how much is a point of karma worth?
>i.e.
>1) if you were to sell a point of karma to another member, how much do you
> charge?
You don't charge anything. Experience can't be sold.
>2) in an average run, for every point of karma you get, how much NuYen do you
> get? Or are karma and money inversely related?
None of the above. Cash payment is a function of the employer's wealth, how
important the run is to the employer, and how difficult the employer expects
it to be. Karma awards are a function of how difficult the run actually is
(with a few bonuses based on how much the individual player enhances the
group's enjoyment of the game).
esper@***.umn.edu
s
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 22:46:13 -0400
Reply-To: aa2239@*******.lorain.oberlin.edu
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Matt Vanek <aa2239@*******.LORAIN.OBERLIN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Selling Karma
Hmmm...selling attributes....now how much do i need that intellegence
anyway...
:)
Iron Claw
--
See the constellation ride across the sky
No cigar, no lady on his arm
Just a guy made of dots and lines -TMBG
Huh? Nevermind. I donno, I just got here.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 22:41:20 -0400
Reply-To: aa2239@*******.lorain.oberlin.edu
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Matt Vanek <aa2239@*******.LORAIN.OBERLIN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Medkit 6
ok, lets look at what a skill of level 6 is...first we have the
average joe at level three for most skills, adn attributes they
would have avalable for their character...now, a level 6 doctor
would be quite skilled and, as far as i am concerned, is too high
for a guy that is wandering around with a talking medkit (BEEP...
CUT HERE...BEEP) even the best doctor may have a hard time explaining
procedures that need to be carried out. A person with no medical
training would hahve a butt hard time figuring out what the hell he was looking at...
well dat's my 2 nuyen...kill it if ya want...i care not
Iron Claw
--
See the constellation ride across the sky
No cigar, no lady on his arm
Just a guy made of dots and lines -TMBG
Huh? Nevermind. I donno, I just got here.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1993 03:13:19 -0500
Reply-To: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Those damn drones...
A LOOOOOONG time ago, I talked about Animal-like drones. Well, I have FINALLY
been in the computer lab with my sheets, so here goes:
Drone handling Speed B/A Sig AP Cargo Duration <cruise >cruise Sens
============================================================================
crawler 4/4 5/15 1/0 4 1 2 24 hrs 6 12 1
this might be from RBB. I don't remember
scorpion 6 5/10 1/0 8 2 0 6 hrs 3 10 1
looks like a scorpion. Can carry about a microchip. Has a stinger
that holds 2 shots, 6 for 2000Y. 4D3 stun
bird 8 15/45 1/0 8 3 0 8 hrs 6 12 2
8? well, YOU try flying as a bird! It has special sensors, and also a
subroutine that, when just sitting there, makes it look like a bird
(i.e. it goes to the bathroom, grooms itself, etc.
Bugfinder 5 5/15 1/0 4 3 0 8 hrs 6 12 1
has a rating 10 bugfinger built in. It walks around trying to find them
looks like a tarantula
costs? If I ever manage to get to the lab with the price sheet, I'll post em.
Ummm... considering how LONG I spent working on these (umm... they took about 6
months to build. Not hard to reproduce (of course, I have a reasonably high
skill), but making the blueprints, etc is the hardest part.
Good luck to all the riggers out there!
Copyright 2053 James Brodie and J. Earl Williams
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1993 10:35:51 -0700
Reply-To: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Jeremy Roberson <ROBERSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Karma! Get your fresh Karma! Red-Rot! Buy it now while you can!
Chris Bellovary has an intersting take on the giving and receiving of Karma.
If you were to allow it then that's the way to go: No monetary or other kind
of material gain by the donating party. However, I think that occasions like
that are covered amply by the team Karma Pool in 2nd edition.
J Roberson
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1993 13:05:03 CDT
Reply-To: chuck martin <martin@***.NRLSSC.NAVY.MIL>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: chuck martin <martin@***.NRLSSC.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Lvl 6 Medkit & skill chips
Howdy folks,
I have been on this list for two months now, and rarely post, so most
of you don't know who I am. That's fine, I hardly know on somedays.
I have been following the discussion about the Level 6 Medkit, and want
to throw my in my 2Y worth.
I agree that the decker modifying this medkit will require a Level 9
chip, in my opinion, because those chips were never intended to be modified
in such a way. Thus installing one in this kit will most likely result
in some degredation of the data stored on this chip.
I also feel that the decker must have a Level 6 in Biotech because he
would also have to know what medical tools to add into this kit, to
make it complete. As someone pointed out, a Doc with level 9 in Biotech
would be pretty useless if he only had a survival knife (or worse if he
only had his bare hands).
I think that somewhere in the tables for modifying the target number
for skill use is a modifier for lack of necessary equipment. (Or maybe
I am thinking of another game. It get's hard to keep them all seperate.)
I now have a question: How much can a single skill chip hold (in the
number of programs or MPs)? We (my gaming group) has been using the
the largest size of MPs a single skill can be as the amount of storage
space. Does anyone do (or know) differently?
Just my 2Y worth.
Harrison
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1993 18:37:04 -0700
Reply-To: STALLINGS@****.COLORADO.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Mark Stallings <STALLINGS@****.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: SR2 Hardcover
I was reading some old mail and came across the discourse on people
having problems obtaining a Hardcover copy of SR 2.
If anybody is still having problems or would like a hardcover:
Call Tye at: The Compleat Gamer
(719) 473-1116
Tye has assured me that he has access to any number of copies.
Thanks,
Moon Dancer
-Mark Stallings
stallings@****.colorado.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1993 22:00:01 -0400
Reply-To: "David M. Girardot" <GIRARDOT@*********.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "David M. Girardot" <GIRARDOT@*********.EDU>
Subject: Revising Decking Rules
mm-send-edit
This is intended for those GM's and Srun players who like myself are
dissapointed in the limited Matrix rules available in Shadowrun.
If you are satisfied with the current rules... hit output off now.
You've been warned. :)
Okay.
My basic gripes with the current Matrix system are:
1) Reminds me too much of a dungeon crawl.
2) Too limited. Often your only options as a decker are fight or flight
with little or no options for finesse.
3) With cyberdecks, too much emphasis on the deck and not the Decker's
actual skills. Thus we have the syndrome of whosever-spendeth-most-
is-the-best; a munckin mentality if I ever saw one.
4) Having seen the Gurps system (a much more realistic and flexible system)
I know what's possible. The current rules are too much of a letdown.
What I want:
Input. Any suggestions on how to improve things. For example, if it were to
be a skills based system, what types of skills would you suggest: analysis,
searching, ic-combat, ic-design, etc.
--David
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Girardot@*********.edu Girardot@********.bitnet
dmgirard@***.cs.du.edu
-*-
Prognosticator * Gamer * Scribbler * Reader * Consultant * Sorta Apple Rep
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1993 22:00:36 -0400
Reply-To: "Like, dude, where's the firefight?"
<MURRAYMD@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Like, dude, where's the firefight?"
<MURRAYMD@******.BITNET>
Subject: Something new for the mages to chew on (or to be chewed by)
A D D I T I O N A L E L E M E N T A L T Y P E S
Through the research of some enterprising mages hybrid Elementals
have been developed for use by hermetic mages. What these elementals gain
in flexibility they loose in effectiveness. Elementalist Adepts can not
conjure any of these spirits.
Smoke Elementals
Appearance: A Smoke elemental appears as a vaguely humanoid shaped
spirit with inconsistent featues made entirely of dense smoke.
Powers: Confusion (When target is within Force meters of elemental
and in smoke), Engulf (Victim must resist [essence+2]S stun using willpower
or body, whichever is greater. The +2 power mod is eliminated if victim is
wearing breathing gear. Refer to Air Engulf for further info.), Guard,
Manifestation, Noxious Breath
Weaknesses: A Smoke Elemental may be confined by airtight seals in
containers of remarkably small size; Vulnerability (Mud), take only 1/2
damage from Earth or Water.
Aid Sorcery: These Elementals can act as auxilliary Magic Pool
with a rating of Force/2 for Combat or Detection spells.
Aid Study: These Elementals can only add its Force/2 number of dice
to the mages learning attempt for Combat or Detection spells.
Spell Sustaining: These Elementals can sustain one Combat or
Detection spell for Force/2 number of combat turns or days as per the rules
p.142 SR2 rulebook.
Fog Elementals
Appearance: A Fog elemental appears as a mass of dense fog with no
definite shape floating in the air.
Powers: Confusion (When target is within Force meters of elemental
and in fog), Engulf (Victim must resist [essence]S stun using willpower
or body, whichever is greater. The power is modified by +1 for each action
that the elemental has had since engulfing the victim, nullified if victim is
wearing breathing gear. Refer to Air Engulf for further info.), Guard,
Manifestation, Noxious Breath
Weaknesses: A Fog elemental may be confined by airtight seals in
containers of moderate size; Vulnerability (Lava), take only 1/2 damage from
Earth or Fire.
Aid Sorcery: These Elementals can act as auxilliary Magic Pool
with a rating of Force/2 for Detection or Illusion spells.
Aid Study: These Elementals can only add its Force/2 number of dice
to the mages learning attempt for Detection or Illusion spells.
Spell Sustaining: These Elementals can sustain one Detection or
Illusion spell for Force/2 number of combat turns or days as per the rules
p.142 SR2 rulebook.
Mud Elementals
Appearance: A Mud Elemental appears as a humanoid shape of
dripping mud with any defined features constantly changing.
Powers: Engulf (as per Water Engulf except +2 to force for each
action that the spirit has had since engulfing the victim, impact armor
defends against this.), Manifestation, Movement
Weaknesses: Vulnerability (Smoke), take only 1/2 damage from Air
or Fire.
Aid Sorcery: These Elementals can act as auxilliary Magic Pool
with a rating of Force/2 for Illusion or Manipulation spells.
Aid Study: These Elementals can only add its Force/2 number of dice
to the mages learning attempt for Illusion or Manipulation spells.
Spell Sustaining: These Elementals can sustain one Illusion or
Manipulation spell for Force/2 number of combat turns or days as per the rules
p.142 SR2 rulebook.
Lava Elementals
Appearance: A Lava Elemental appears as a humanoid made of fiery
brimstone.
Powers: Engulf (Victim must resist [Essence+1]M damage, add +2 for
flame aura. The character must resist [Essence+3]M damage.), Flame Aura,
Flame Projection (normal), Guard, Manifestation
Weaknesses: Vulnerability (Fog), take only 1/2 damage from Air or
Water.
Aid Sorcery: These Elementals can act as auxilliary Magic Pool
with a rating of Force/2 for Combat or Manipulation spells.
Aid Study: These Elementals can only add its Force/2 number of dice
to the mages learning attempt for Combat or Manipulation spells.
Spell Sustaining: These Elementals can sustain one Comabt or
Illusion spell for Force/2 number of combat turns or days as per the rules
p.142 SR2 rulebook.
Type B Q S C I W E R
---- --- ------- --- - - - ----- ---
Smoke F-1 (F+2)x4 F-3 F F F (F)A F+3
Attacks: (F)L as Unarmed Combat(Reaction)
Powers: See Description
Weaknesses: See Description
Fog F Fx3 F-2 F F F (F)A F+1
Attacks: (F)L Stun as Unarmed Combat(Reaction)
Powers: See Description
Weaknesses: See Description
Mud F+3 (F-1)x2 F+2 F F F (F)A F-3
Attacks: (1.5xF)S Stun as Unarmed Combat(Force); +1 Reach
Powers: See Description
Weaknesses: See Description
Lava F+2 Fx3 F+2 F F F (F)A F-1
Attacks: (F+2)M as Unarmed Combat(Reaction); +1 Reach or as powers
Powers: See Description
Weaknesses: See Description
I thought something along thee lines might add a little spice
to the game. Yeah, it smacks of D&D, but what doesn't? Throw them in if
you like them, they're shareware spirits.
Commentary?
*************************************************************************
* I feel that we should | Matt Murray at the University of Dayton *
* not build any more weapons | MURRAYMD@******.BITNET *
* of war and destruction | MURRAYMD@******.OCA.UDAYTON.EDU *
* until we use what we have. | "Like, dude, where's the firefight?" *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Star Fleet Battles Battletech Shadowrun Space Marine AD&D *
*************************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1993 19:04:35 PDT
Reply-To: Cookie Monster <ringwas@***********.CS.ORST.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Cookie Monster <ringwas@***********.CS.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Revising Decking Rules
--------
> This is intended for those GM's and Srun players who like myself are
> dissapointed in the limited Matrix rules available in Shadowrun.
> If you are satisfied with the current rules... hit output off now.
> You've been warned. :)
>
> Okay.
>
> My basic gripes with the current Matrix system are:
>
> 1) Reminds me too much of a dungeon crawl.
> 2) Too limited. Often your only options as a decker are fight or flight
> with little or no options for finesse.
> 3) With cyberdecks, too much emphasis on the deck and not the Decker's
> actual skills. Thus we have the syndrome of whosever-spendeth-most-
> is-the-best; a munckin mentality if I ever saw one.
> 4) Having seen the Gurps system (a much more realistic and flexible system)
> I know what's possible. The current rules are too much of a letdown.
>
> What I want:
>
> Input. Any suggestions on how to improve things. For example, if it were to
From what I have seen, it is also too easy to get above a level ten
on things by designing better programs and chips. Also: If you
design a program yourself, you can give it to the deckers in a group,
and effectively double your survival rate (and complexity of the
situation for the GM) because they both have the ability with no
chance of loss.
-----
Stephan Ringwald
CS Technical Support
ringwas@****.cs.orst.edu
"Blake would've been proud of you, you know." . . . Vila
"I know, but then he never was very bright." . . . Avon
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1993 22:14:00 EDT
Reply-To: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Subject: fluff: some creative material from the campaign here
Frankie, let's see just how much of a street legend we really are... (and
how good i am at creative writing).
Dulcimer was prowling the streets. He'd been doing this a lot lately
and so this was no different. He flitted from alleyway to alleyway,
prowling the dark corners, leaping from rooftop to rooftop. He was in his
night-blacks; he was hunting, and he wanted blood.
It had been twelve hours since they'd last met with Norman. They'd
made the run into Fort Lewis. Norman was due to get his money and turn over
the codes to Coffee in the next few hours. In another 40 hours Coffee and
Dulcimer would slide into the Lone Star databases and change some records.
Dulcimer stopped in the shadows. It was high noon, but if any one saw
him no one gave any indication. They knew better - calling attention to
Dulcimer, King of Clubs and recognized leader of Body Count when he was on
the prowl was tentamount to suicide.
He slipped quietly down the fire escape outside the old brownstone.
It's aged frame creaked slightly under his weight. Dulcimer mentally cursed
himself; despite his wirey frame he still massed 65 kilos - most of it
plastic and enhanced tissue - and sometimes forgot to compensate for it.
He looked intently through the open window. Inside the spartan
apartment Dulcimer could clearly see the men he was looking for. At the
table sat Reginald "Icarus" Taylor reading a book, and beyond him was John
"Skinner" Shinto. Despite the money and security that Body Count had
brought to the area, these two had squandered neither. That and the fact
that they feared and respected Dulcimer was what brought him here. These
two were shrewd and reasonably trustworthy. They had a sense of honor that
was rare for the streets.
Neither man had a clear view of the open window. That was
sloppy. While it was true that the neighborhood was quieter now that
Body Count had moved in, this laxness of security needed to be corrected,
expecially since Dulcimer wanted these two to stay alive as long as
possible.
Like a striking cobra, Dulcimer straigtened and sailed lightly across
the alley and through the open window. He executed a smooth tuck-and-roll
and came to his feet in time to slap aside the knife Skinner had thrown,
''Okay, maybe they were paying attention,'' mused Dulcimer. Icarus backed
toward the wall near the window while Skinner moved opposite. Dulcimer
reviewed the situation, it was himself against two skilled opponents -
Skinner was a street brawler and Icarus had actually achieved a respectable
knowledge of karate, they could each handle several gangers. Dulcimer let out
a sigh, 'No contest.'
The fight lasted less than three seconds. Skinner was quickly stunned
by a nerve punch to his neck, and Icarus handicapped his mobility by
keeping clear of the window. A good secuirty choice in case of snipers, but
it cost him - the air exploded from his lungs as his chest hit the floor, his
left arm twisted behind his back.
"Greetings gentleman," purred Dulcimer in a tone that said "well
done," while also indicating this visit was purely business. He released
Icarus and wandered toward the kitchen.
Icarus stood up and stretched his shoulder. "What can we do for you
Dulcimer?" His tone betrayed no emotion.
From the kitchen came the sound of running water, and shortly Dulcimer
returned to throw a glass of water on Skinner's face. Skinner was on his feet
instantly.
Dulcimer produced a certified cred stick. It was silver. "You guys are
the brains around here, I have some work I want you to do," it was a
statement, not a request. "You two are now in charge of Disinformation
Dissemination. Grab a couple of the gang, get yourself some
new clothes, prowl the streets of Seattle, and build us a Body Count poser
gang. Grease some palms, spread some rumors and enhance the legend. Use the
money on that stick to pay for the plastic surgery. If there's a rumor about
us, you two are given some creative license in enhancing it." Dulcimer's dark
eyes betrayed darker thoughts. He tossed the cred stick to Skinner, "pick up a
dozen packs of playing cards. Remove all the 'King of Clubs' cards. Give them
to the poser gang; bring me the rest of the cards. I want this done as quickly
as possible."
Dulcimer floated to the window and slipped out. With a glance around
the alley and then into the apartment he said "and bring me a new sniper
rifle." Then he was gone as quickly as he had come.
Any questions?
Comments?
Suggestions?
Patric
Dulcimer
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 00:34:26 -0400
Reply-To: "Like, dude, where's the firefight?"
<MURRAYMD@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Like, dude, where's the firefight?"
<MURRAYMD@******.BITNET>
Subject: Those Damn Decking Rules!!!
>This is intended for those GM's and Srun players who like myself are
>dissapointed in the limited Matrix rules available in Shadowrun.
>If you are satisfied with the current rules... hit output off now.
>You've been warned. :)
You've got my attention Dave. I hafta agree with you on this one.
>Okay.
>My basic gripes with the current Matrix system are:
>1) Reminds me too much of a dungeon crawl.
I can see that, but the GM should take some steps to make it less
so, like having an info source supply the route to the paydata or something
like that. Good point though.
>2) Too limited. Often your only options as a decker are fight or flight
> with little or no options for finesse.
Yeah, your option for finesse comes down to "I activate my Sleaze 6
against the IC." There isn't too much that you can do.
>3) With cyberdecks, too much emphasis on the deck and not the Decker's
> actual skills. Thus we have the syndrome of whosever-spendeth-most-
> is-the-best; a munckin mentality if I ever saw one.
Something where the Computer skill of the decker counts more would
be what you're looking for.
4>) Having seen the Gurps system (a much more realistic and flexible system)
> I know what's possible. The current rules are too much of a letdown.
Could you supply us with an idea of what the GURPS rules are like?
>What I want:
>Input. Any suggestions on how to improve things. For example, if it were to
>be a skills based system, what types of skills would you suggest: analysis,
>searching, ic-combat, ic-design, etc.
You know what might help the most? A simplification of the decking
rules. I play Star Fleet Battles which has lots-o-rules (Tell 'em Dave,
you know what I'm talking about.) and I'm no dummy, but I have yet to figure
out those infernal decking rules! What I would like to see would be either
a breakdown of the rules into a simpler format or just a simplification of
the rules. Once that is done I bet some of the areas that need work would
come out. Is there anyone out there that *really* understands the decking
rules and applies them fully?
The way that rules look now and the whole idea of how the Matrix
works you could make an entire game based upon the Matrix. You could throw
out any references to the Real World(tm) and have a stand-alone rpg with
the way they have the Matrix rules!
I can't really give any detailed rule by rule analysis of the
decking rules, but I can tell you that they do need cleaned up!
>--David
*************************************************************************
* I feel that we should | Matt Murray at the University of Dayton *
* not build any more weapons | MURRAYMD@******.BITNET *
* of war and destruction | MURRAYMD@******.OCA.UDAYTON.EDU *
* until we use what we have. | "Like, dude, where's the firefight?" *
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Star Fleet Battles Battletech Shadowrun Space Marine AD&D *
*************************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 11:22:22 +0100
Reply-To: "P. D. Haigh" <ssuhaigh@*******.AC.UK>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "P. D. Haigh" <ssuhaigh@*******.AC.UK>
Subject: Toyz, and other things
I have seen the multiple postings about the Toyz presented on the group -
unfortunately I have had exams here and also had a mailobox crash.
If someone would be kind enough to send me a copy of the toyz post I would
appreciate it. Also I heard mention of a catalog of new ammo, etc. Is it
written by FASA or a creation of a Poster? Where can i get it (If at all???)
Cheers in advance,
Paul (Demon GM From HELL)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 05:38:55 -0500
Reply-To: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Matrix Revisions? Why?!
Okay... my quick .03 nuyen (adjusted after taxes from 1993-7):
No real need to change the rules, unless your characters just particularly
WANT to watch your decker with the new rules. In fact, when I have run (limited
I know, but all the characters had fun, even if the decker would KILL tee-hee
[tee-hee!!!:)]), I almost totally ditched the high-tech rules. Granted, rules
are nice for when the decker's using a smart-frame or whatnot, but for the
average datasteal (is there such a thing?), no specialities are needed.
Well, you're probably asking yourself, WHAT THE FRAG ARE YOU DOIN?!
Good question.
Answer?
RoLE playing, not RoLL playing (you be the danish, I'll be the bagel). When I
did it, I told the group what the scene was. I then left it to the decker as
to what to do. I had DJs throwing old-style records among themselves, a
caterpillar sitting on a mushroom, vampire lawyers running from place to place,
etc. It made it a LOT more interesting for everyone, the decker included (name
deleted to avoid
embarassment (oops, accidental CR), and therefore keep me from getting killed:))
It was a highly enjoyable change of pace from the usual "oh, this is a SAN?
well, I'm heading to the CPU. I'll roll the dice". Instead it was "I use my
program to make me look like one of the vampire lawyers", and the roll was to
see if the pinstripes matched (they did).
My conclusion? None. If you REALLY want a new decking system, go for it. We can
probably then start a different list for that too (and get no responses, ala
the 'other' sr list that I don't post to. :( )
But if you want to make it more enjoyable for all the characters, save some
time, energy, and rolls, try it: roleplaying. It's not just for "real
roleplayers" anymore.
The Reverend
"they called me the reverend when I entered the church unstained"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 08:23:00 EDT
Reply-To: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Subject: fluff: *grumble* i sent the wrong one!!!
well, due to complications beyond my control i managed to send the wrong
copy of Dulcimer's Night Out. the edited copy is longer, more exciting and
doesn't contain headers relevant only to my GM.
*sigh*
I hope you have the revised copy in a day or two.
Patric
progers@******.bitnet
(Hey Carter, I found the "shift" key, but it doesn't have an instruction manual)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 11:09:55 -0400
Reply-To: Todd Montgomery <tmont@****.WVU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Todd Montgomery <tmont@****.WVU.EDU>
Subject: Matrix Revision? What are you doing MAN?
I have work, projects, and finals coming out my ears. But I need to
comment here to save my sanity. (And provide a little much needed
diversion.)
I am all for someone changing ANY (EVERY) game to suit there own
styles of play, but I just want to take an objective view of decking
for SR. At least I am going to try to be objective.
Deck: defines persona, and holds programs to execute on other machines,
also stores downloaded files.
Programs: define "special" actions of personas (i.e. Attacks, scans,
etc).
Hacking Pool: A measure of general ability (from skill, deck, etc.).
This allows you to execute a program on the fly. One of my most
treasured possessions is this ability. Programs on the fly take up
very little space and can save your gonads when in a desperate
situation.
Someone, the original poster I think, said that decking really had
very little skill involved. Well, I think it really does. Below is
why.
It seems to me that if a character is played as a TRUE decker, not a
decker wanna-be, then the character would have:
Custom built deck (Computer (B/R) skill)
Custom programs (Computer skill)
Both of these require skill and imagination ("So what does your Attack
4 One-Shot, Area-Effect look like? And what does it do exactly?").
This is where the deckers skill should and does shine in SR.
The character would not BUY a deck, or BUY stock programs. From a GM
stand point, I feel any character who relies on BOUGHT programs and
decks is just playing a decker for purely power purposes. (read "we
need a decker?", "OK, I will use munchy. The guy with Tech A, Atts. B
and Skills C, and Firearms of 6") These are the kinds of characters
who are played just because a decker is needed, but the player would
rather play a Sam. I really dislike this. You have to really WANT to
play a decker. Anything else is just RoLL-Playing.
I feel the SR decking rules are the best option (including GURPS, CP
2020, Cyber HERO, and CyberSpace). I have read through all of these
games and like SR the most. The RoLe Playing is much better in SR for
deckers. Decking involves, running custom programs, being able to
adapt to unusual circumstances (Role-Playing Sculpted Systems or new
IC constructs, etc.), and having the correct tech. ability (Skills).
There could be more skills added to enhance things, Like someone said,
IC recognition, etc. But these might be Special Skills that would say
give extra dice to certain tests. But I think the real power should be
in the programs and deck. The decker has to know how to use them
effectively.
And it is RoLe-Playing after all, More realism can be implemented
easier by the GM than by adding rules. Weigh the rules and realism
carefully. "Let not one over RULE the other".
Well I am done babbling incoherently now. Just needed to post because
I was suffering from list withdrawl, over working, and under sleeping.
CYA, ...Peace!
-- Quiktek
a.k.a. Todd Montgomery
tmont@****.wvu.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 21:26:00 EDT
Reply-To: Blaidd mab Ceryddwen <MHILLIARD@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Blaidd mab Ceryddwen <MHILLIARD@******.BITNET>
Subject: Earthdawn
Hey, I have a question for you folks with a line into FASA. Do you have any
info on a new game soon to be released called "Earthdawn"? I saw a full-page
ad in Dragon #192, but it was pretty lean on details. Anyone know anything?
Phelan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 19:52:45 -0900
Reply-To: "ACAD1A::KSGWA" <KSGWA@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: The Mage of the Realms <KSGWA@******.BITNET>
I am having trouble finding a rule that I thought I saw in the GRIM II or
SR II.... I remember reading someplace that a person can tell a spirit/elemnt
to guard a place and for the rest of the mage's life (or something like that)
the spirit/elemental would guard that place... loosing all sucesses that
spirit/elemental had....
Am I going senile or did I really read this???
thanks...
-- Atticus
__________________________________________________________________________
| ksgwa@*****.alaska.edu | If you love someone let them go.... |
| | If they don't come back.... |
| ksgwa@******.bitnet | HUNT THEM DOWN AND KILL THEM!!!!! |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 19:54:54 -0900
Reply-To: "ACAD1A::KSGWA" <KSGWA@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: The Mage of the Realms <KSGWA@******.BITNET>
Subject: vampire file....
I remember a while back that ther was a really big posting on vampires....
I seem to have lost my copy of that posting... could someone mail me a copy?
tanks
-- Atticus
__________________________________________________________________________
| ksgwa@*****.alaska.edu | If you love someone let them go.... |
| | If they don't come back.... |
| ksgwa@******.bitnet | HUNT THEM DOWN AND KILL THEM!!!!! |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1993 01:24:37 -0500
Reply-To: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Vampyr File...(maybe)
Atticus--
>I remember a while back that ther was a really big posting on vampires....
>I seem to have lost my copy of that posting... could someone mail me a copy?
This MIGHT be what you were referring to...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Profile on the Nosferatu...
Taxonomy: Sanguisuga europa caecus
IDENTIFICATION
Nosferatu appear to be human, with enlarged canine teeth, thin or no
head or body hair, and extremely pale skin. A complete blood analysis
identifies a nosferatu by positive testing for the Harz-Greenbaum blood series
and the presence of antibodies to the Bruckner-Langer strain of Human-Metahuman
Vampiric Virus (HMHVV).
Parabiologists do not consider nosferatu a separate species, but rather
individuals of a human subspecies infected with the Bruckner-Langer HMHVV
strain (this virus differentiates them from vampires). Because existing
documents fail to record the existence of metahuman nosferatu, Bruckner and
Langer hypothesize that the HMHVV variant they isolated in 2046 is lethal to
nonhumans.
MAGIC CAPABILITY
Always naturally active, nosferatu possess a wide range of innate
powers.
HABITS
Nosferatu both resemble and differ from humans infected with the HMHVV
strain that engenders vampirism. Like vampires, nosferatu consume blood to
live, but they need significantly less than vampires. Nocturnal creatures,
nosferatu share the vampire's allergy to sunlight. Unlike vampires, nosferatu
live and behave in a very controlled manner, usually possessing the cold,
arrogant, hyper-rational personality. Nosferatu prefer the solitary life, and
so few bother to control minions, even though more nosferatu vampires appear
able to create such minions. Rarely, nosferatu may join a hermetic group in
order to develop further resources.
COMMENTARY
The nosferatu poses both more and less danger to the normal human or
metahuman than the vampire. Its high level of intelligence, rationality, and
less pressing need for blood allow it to more easily and often outthink its
enemies, and go longer without sustenance than the average vampire. These
traits make the nosferatu a dangerous opponent. It antisocial nature, few
numbers, and, above all, its dislike for engendering more of its kind, on the
other hand, make it in some ways less dangerous than its vampiric cousins.
Observed nosferatu appear to prefer transmitting their HMHVV version only to
their siblings' offspring (nosferatu themselves appear to have strikingly low
fertility, a suspected side effect of their antisocial, schizoid
personalities). Nosferatu consider themselves to be fortunate to be in this
condition, and jealously guard their superiority from others.
POWERS
Compulsion (LOS), Enhanced Physical Attributes (Body and Strength,
twice per day each, for [Essence]D6 turns), Enhanced Senses (Improved Hearing,
Low-Light Vision, Thermographic Vision), Essence Drain (Permanent and
Temporary), Fear (LOS), Immunity to Age, Immunity to Pathogens, Immunity to
Poison, Infection, Influence (LOS), Magical Resistance, Regeneration.
Notes: Unlike the vampire, the nosferatu can drain Essence permanently
without limit (though it can only increase its own Essence to double the normal
maximum). Nosferatu always follow the hermetic traditions; the gamemaster may
determine details as he wishes.
WEAKNESSES
Allergy (Sunlight, Extreme), Essence Loss (at a rate of 1 point per 1D6
+1 months)
GAME INFORMATION
B Q S C I W E R Attacks
Nosferatu * *x5 * * * * (2D6) * Humanoid
Suggested Minimums for non-character generated nosferatu:
Body 4, Strength 4, Charisma 5, Intelligence 3, Willpower 5 Essence minimum: 7
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc, PhD.
Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark Thought Publications
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
<<<
[ Doctor Doom : jch8169@********.tamu.edu ]
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1993 15:49:46 +0100
Reply-To: Gerlof.Woudstra@***.PZ.WAU.NL
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Gerlof A.Woudstra" <Gerlof.Woudstra@***.PZ.WAU.NL>
Subject: MATRIX RULES
***** ATTACHMENT: C:\THUS\MATRIX *****
>No real need to change the rules, unless your characters just particularly
>WANT to watch your decker with the new rules. In fact, when I have run (limited
>I know, but all the characters had fun, even if the decker would KILL tee-hee
>[tee-hee!!!:)]), I almost totally ditched the high-tech rules. Granted, rules
>are nice for when the decker's using a smart-frame or whatnot, but for the
>average datasteal (is there such a thing?), no specialities are needed.
Sounds to me that you did change the rules.
>Well, you're probably asking yourself, WHAT THE FRAG ARE YOU DOIN?!
>Good question.
>Answer?
>It was a highly enjoyable change of pace from the usual "oh, this is a SAN?
>well, I'm heading to the CPU. I'll roll the dice". Instead it was "I use my
>program to make me look like one of the vampire lawyers", and the roll was to
>see if the pinstripes matched (they did).
This is indeed much more fun. But you still rolled some dice to see if he could
do it. So you need a good system to do so. A quicker, faster system to solve
questions like, are the vampires fooled, and if not, will you be able to disable
the vampire before he can shout a warning to that mean looking trollvampire
hiding in a dark corner? Still sounds like boring matrixcombat coming up.
IMHO the question for good rules still stand. Sometimes I use a quick method to
see if a decker is able to get his greedy little hands on some not so important
data. Just roll once or twice with your computerskill and get it over with.
Remember that a lot of corps just can't afford those real goodlooking pics. Most
are boring and use the same old graphics. And what about those nifty deckers
with reality filters?
<<<< The Woodsman >>>> Mighty for friends
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1993 15:46:29 +0100
Reply-To: Gerlof.Woudstra@***.PZ.WAU.NL
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Gerlof A.Woudstra" <Gerlof.Woudstra@***.PZ.WAU.NL>
Subject: SKILLS DING DONG ROUND 5
It seemed that something went wrong with my first posts, so I send it once
more. Sorry if you already received this.
***** ATTACHMENT: CAR *****
>Car( Passenger Vehicle)3
>Everybody drives cars. The car skill IMHO reflects your ability to do high
>speed chases and dangerous maneuvers. Points Held in Reserve.
>Total Skill Points: 32
> See Ya in Shadows,
> Jason J Carter
> The Nightstalker
In this I must disagree, not everybody drives cars. Maybye in the USA of now
people do. But in 2054? No way, much to expensive. Remember lots of people
don't have enough money to rent a decent roof above their heads. Besides who
needs to drive, let your autopilot do the driving part for you. Or take the
Subway.
Besides, (since we use the shr books for examples) in the sprawlsides you can
find the archetype of a taxidriver. He got a drive car skilllevel of 5! Granted
I would say that '5' is a bit high, but he is not supposed to do high speed
chases and such. And he still is a 'good' chauffeur.
IMHO a car skill of 3 makes a compotent driver (see what a autopilot of 1 is
able to do). So I say 35 points
<<<<< Woodsman >>>>> Mighty for my Friends
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1993 09:43:42 CDT
Reply-To: bellovar@***.WISC.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Christopher Bellovary <bellovar@***.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Skills - Cars
> Besides, (since we use the shr books for examples) in the sprawlsides you can
> find the archetype of a taxidriver. He got a drive car skilllevel of 5!
> Granted I would say that '5' is a bit high, but he is not supposed to do
> high speed chases and such. And he still is a 'good' chauffeur.
Have you ever driven with some taxi drivers? Heh, I don't know, but
some of the few I have driven with qualify for race car status. *grin*
Playing devil's advocate for a second, I also think some of the
archetypes are not truly typical - but good for the storyline. What good
is it if you hop in a Taxi and say "follow that car!" if the driver can
barely stay on the road (or vice versa if one is tailing your rigger)
*grin* Cya all later.
-- CrossFire --
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1993 09:53:35 CDT
Reply-To: bellovar@***.WISC.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Christopher Bellovary <bellovar@***.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Matrix Rules & Skill Web - you don't NEED to bother
> This is indeed much more fun. But you still rolled some dice to see if he
could
> do it. So you need a good system to do so. A quicker, faster system to solve
> questions like, are the vampires fooled, and if not, will you be able to
> disable the vampire before he can shout a warning to that mean looking
> trollvampire hiding in a dark corner? Still sounds like boring matrixcombat
> coming up.
You don't necessarily need new rules for this one, but it would help.
The reason I say this is the fact that if the GM is good at that sort of stuff,
you can set target numbers on the fly. In all honesty - we have yet to see that
skill web that everyone is complaining about in game (I think we have out of
game though). The reason being, for success tests, our GM just looks at our
applicable skills and what other skills we may have that might help out.
Essentially, the other skills serve to lower the target number of
whatever we are attempting. Now if we don't have the proper skill, he just
chooses the best skill or attribute that seems to apply, and sure he picks
what he thinks is a suitable addition to the target number, so it isn't always
set or consistent, but neither is the situation, so.... six on one hand, half
dozen on the other. Doesn't work for everyone, but it works for us.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1993 13:22:45 -0700
Reply-To: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Skills - Cars
Woodsman said:
>>In this I must disagree, not everybody drives cars. Maybye in the USA of now
>>people do. But in 2054? No way, much to expensive. Remember lots of people
>>don't have enough money to rent a decent roof above their heads. Besides who
>>needs to drive, let your autopilot do the driving part for you. Or take the
>>Subway.
Good point, but it does not mean someone who does drive a car will have a
skill.
>>Besides, (since we use the shr books for examples) in the sprawlsides you can
>>find the archetype of a taxidriver. He got a drive car skilllevel of 5!
>>Granted I would say that '5' is a bit high, but he is not supposed to do high
>speed chases and such. And he still is a 'good' chauffeur.
Not bring up the point of New York City cab drivers (Are the stereotypes
true?), a cab driver in Seattle of 2054 better be able to perform excellently in
a high speed chase. God knows how many Go-Gangs he has to evade in the space of
one month. Car 5 is not too high.
>>IMHO a car skill of 3 makes a compotent driver (see what a autopilot of 1 is
>>able to do). So I say 35 points
Given what was said above, No points.
See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1993 16:20:58 -0500
Reply-To: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: The Geek Code v0.2 (Not really Shadowrun, but still fun)
About a week ago, I started working on the Geek Code, a humorous way to
list your geeky attributes.
Well, I've posted to usenet and figured I'd send a copy to all of you to
look at and get a good chuckle over.
This was also posted to the following USEnet groups: soc.bi, soc.motss,
comp.os.linux, and alt.geek.
---------------------------
Hi everyone. After a few suggestions, I've upgraded the Geek Code that I
originally posted last week. This version removes the fashion category,
revamps the music category, and adds 'weirdness' and 'sex'.
This is still a beta version of the Geek code, and suggestions and
comments are desired.
If you wish to get added to the 'Official Geek Registry', send me email
with your Geek codes and real name and I'll work on compiling a list.
Followups to this posting have been directed to alt.geek as it is the
proper forum for geek discussion, but posted originally to more groups due
to possible interested outside of alt.geek.
Thanks for your interest.
Robert
GSS d- p--/+p- c++ m++/* s-/++ g+ w++ x+
-----------------------------------
Suggestions welcome.
Send them to:
Robert A. Hayden: <hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu>
GSS d- p--/+p- c++ m++/* s-/++ g+ w++ x+
------------------- The Code of the Geeks v0.2 --------------------------
---------------------- April 27, 1993 -------------------------------
So you think you are a geek, eh? The first step is to admit to yourself
your geekiness. No matter what anyone says, geeks are people too; geeks
have rights. So take a deep breath and announce to the world that you are a
geek. Your courage will give you strength that will last you forever.
How to tell the world you are a geek, you ask? Use the universal Geek code.
By joining the geek brotherhood, you have license to use this special code
that will allow you to let other un-closeted geeks know who you are in a
simple, codified statement.
---------------------
Type:
Geeks come in many flavors. The flavors relate to the vocation of the
particular geek. To start a code, a geek must declare himself or herself to
be a geek. To do this, we start the code with a "G" to denote "GEEK",
followed by one or two letters to denote the geeks occupation.
Multi-talented geeks with more than one vocation should denote their myrid
of talents with a slash between each vocation (example: GCS/MU/T).
GCS -- Geek of Computer Science
GE -- Geek of Engineering
GM -- Geek of Math
GMU -- Geek of Music
GB -- Geek of Business
GS -- Geek of Science (Physics, Chemistry, Biology, etc.)
GSS -- Geek of Social Science (Psychology, Sociology, etc.)
GT -- Geek of Theatre
GO -- Geek of Other. Some types of geeks deviate from the
normal geek activities. This is encouraged as true geeks
come from all walks of life.
GU -- Geek of 'Undecided'. This is a popular vocation with
new freshmen.
----------------------
Dress:
Geeks come in many different types of dress.
d I dress a lot like those in Walmart ads
d+ I tend to wear trendy political messages like "Save the
Whales" or "Free South Africa".
d++ I tend to wear conservative dress such as a business
suit.
d- I tend to wear trendy political messages like "Nuke the
Humans", "Question Authoriry", or "Big Brother's
Watching".
d-- I wear jeans to work just to piss off my boss
d--- At work, I have holes in my jeans and/or obscenities on
my shirt.
d* I have no idea what I am wearing right now, let alone
what I wore yesterday.
---------------------
Politics:
Just as the Geek's sense of fashion is varried, so is his/her political
convictions.
p Politics? I've heard of that somewhere but in all honesty
I really don't give a shit.
p+ Let's get the government off of big-busines's back
p++ All in favor of eliminating free speech, say aye!
p+++ Fuckin' Minorities! Adolf Hitler is my hero!
p- Bring back the 60's
p-- I'm still living in the 60's
p--- No taxes through no government
-p+ Don't label me you moron! Both sides are equally fucked up!
---------------------
Computers:
Most geeks identify themselves by their use of computers and computer
networks. In order to quantify your geekiness level on computers, consult
the following (consider the term 'computers' synonymous with 'computer
network'):
c Computers are a tool, nothing more. I use it when it serves
my purpose.
c+ Computers are fun and I enjoy using them. I play a mean
game of Wing Commander and can use a word processor without
resorting to the manual too often. I know that a 3.5" disk
is not a hard disk. I also know that when it says 'press any
key to continue', I don't have to look for a key labeled 'ANY'.
c++ Computers are a large part of my existence. When I get up
in the morning, the first thing I do is log myself in. I mud
on weekends, but still manage to stay off of academic
probation.
c+++ You mean there is life outside of Internet? You're shittin'
me! I live for muds. I haven't dragged myself to class in
weeks.
c- Anything more complicated than my calculator and I'm
screwed.
c-- Where's the on switch?
c--- If you even mention computers, I will rip your head off!
-------------------
Music:
Musical interests vary widely, also.
m I occasionally listen to the radio
m+ I own a tape or CD collection (records also count, but you
would be admitting how old you are).
m++ I consider myself refined and enjoy classical and new-age
selections
m+++ I consider myself over-refined and grok that heavy-duty
elevator music.
m- Just play it loud
m-- I play air-guitar better than anyone else.
m--- LISTEN! I SAID TO PLAY IT LOUD!
m* I am an expert on so many types of music that I can't even
keep them straight
-------------------
Shape:
Geeks come in many shapes and sizes. Shape code is divided into two parts.
The first indicates height, while the second indicates roundness. Mix each
section to fit yourself. Examples include: s/++, s++/, s++/--.
s I'm an average geek
s+/+ I'm a little taller/rounder than most.
s++/++ I'm a basketball/linebacker candidate.
s+++/+++I usually have to duck through doors/I take up three movie
seats.
s-/- I look up to most people. Everyone tells me to gain a
few pounds.
s--/-- I look up to damn near everybody. I tend to have to fight
against a strong breeze.
s---/---I take a phone book with me when I go out so I can see to
eat dinner. My bones are poking through my skin.
--------------------
Glasses:
Geeks have traditionally worn glasses.
!g I have no glasses
g+ I've got four eyes, what's your point?
g++ I've got four eyes and tape in the middle
g+++ I have coke-bottle classes that I can use to start leaves on
fire in the hot sun.
g- I have contacts
g-- I have colored contacts
--------------------
Weirdness:
Geeks have a seemingly natural knack for being "weird". Of course, this is
a subjective term as one person's weirdness is another person's normalness.
As a general rule, the following weird qualifiers allow a geek to rate their
wierdness.
w I am not weird. I'm perfectly normal.
w+ so? what's your problem with weird.
w++ I am so weird, I make Al Yankovic look sane.
w+++ Mainstream? I heard of that once, I think.
w- I'm more normal that most people normally are.
w-- Isn't everyone in the p+ group?
--------------------
Sex:
Geeks have traditionally had problems with sex (ie, the never have any).
Because geeks are so wrapped up in their sexuality (or lack of sexuality for
that matter), it is important that the geek be willing to quantify their
sexual expieriences.
!x Sex? What's that? I've had no sexual expieriences.
x+ I've had sex with humans. I sometime exchange dirty emails
with other people.
x++ I was once referred to as 'easy'. I have no idea where that
might have come from though.
x- I prefer cybersex to real sex. I sometimes exchange dirty
looks with other people.
x-- I was once referred to as a 'cyberslut', but I have no idea
where that might have come from.
--------------------
The Geek Code is copyright 1993 by Robert A. Hayden. All rights reserved.
You are free to distribute this code in electronic format provided that the
contents are unchanged and this copyright notice remains attached.
--
[> Robert Hayden ____ <] Black Holes result from God
[> \ /__ <] dividing the universe by zero.
[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ / <]
[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ <] # include std_disclaimer.h
--
(SMURF CODE 1.04): S6 b g+ l- y- z- n+ o+ x- a+/-- u+ v-- j++
(GEEK CODE 0.2): GSS d- p--/+p- c++ m++/* s-/++ g+ w++ x+
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1993 18:58:24 -0700
Reply-To: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Jeremy Roberson <ROBERSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Rolling on the Fly
Here, Here! Three cheers for "make half the rules up as the seem appropriate!"
A competent GM can cut down Munchkins and help "character-intensive" types live
longer when he adjusts the rules as needed.
J Roberson
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1993 21:25:03 -0500
Reply-To: TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Rob Rubin <TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Decking...
Decking from the main book (Blue or black) is fairly basic. Rather cut-n-dry.
The book encourages creativity, but Hey, an attack 5 is stil an attack 5.
What it really takes is a creative GM to make a Martix come alive. Case in
point : (GACK! ANOTHER PLAYER STORY!!!) A GM needed a PC decker, being the
only player in my group who's willing to put up with the Matrix, I ran one.
The GM made it worth my while. "You can't get into the Datastore." "Why
not?"
"Well, it looks like there's three programs in there that use about 150 MP of
memory. The line leading to the node can only hold 148 MP." "Neat!"
He also described EVERYTHING in full Matrix detail. It was fun.
Come to thinking of it though, there is something to be said about letting
players be creative too. You can avoid the 'munchkin' by encouraging a
creative mind. ("Can I get a Mega-Blaster 9000?" 'Yeah, but how do you go
about getting one, eh?' "Umm, Ummm..... Gimme a minute...")
-Tyger
**************************************************
"My sense of God is my sense of wonder about the universe"
-Albert Einstein
"What's right is what's left if you've done everything else wrong."
-Robin Williams
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
(The above post)
-Tyger
**************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1993 21:38:11 -0500
Reply-To: TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Rob Rubin <TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: LRP w/ Paintball
This is something I posted on "Rec.Sport.Paintball". A few guys wanted to
see a scenario game that wasn't a re-enactment of a real battle. If you
want to delete it, I understand. IF not, It's some fairly good stuff. I
used 'Cyberpunk' because it was easier to understand. (No magic to understand
or deal with...) But, with some work, it can be modified to make for a LRP
of Shadowrun. Someone would have to make a working magic system...
Anyhow, opinions are appreciated!
*******************
X-NEWS: vax2.winona.msus.edu rec.sport.paintball: 2807
Relay-Version: VMS News - V6.0-3 14/03/90 VAX/VMS; site msus1.msus.edu
Path: msus1.msus.edu!vax2.winona.msus.edu!tyger
Newsgroups: rec.sport.paintball
Subject: Re: Wierd idea... (A SCENARIO STARTER!)
Message-ID: <1993Apr25.212608.1@****.winona.msus.edu>
From: tyger@****.winona.msus.edu
Date: 25 Apr 93 21:26:08 CST
References: <0096B2F8.08733580@***.oscs.montana.edu>
<1raei5INNiud@****.unm.edu>
Organization: Winona State University
Nntp-Posting-Host: vax1.winona.msus.edu
Lines: 118
> If you are familiar with the concept of a "role playing
> game" you would be aware that that combat, in my system
> paintball, is only one part of the experience. Other
> types of challenges must be met and overcome.
>
> If you are not familiar with RPGs, imagine being characters
> in an adventure novel or movie. While combat may be an important
> aspect of what the protagonists do, it is not the only thing
> they must do.
>
> Hope a few more of you die hards see fit to comment.
> Thanks in advance.:wq
How about us 'dye hards'? :X)
Anywhoo, as an avid gamer (Read, playes the afformentioned RPG's alot!) I would
like to post a quick idea for a 'role-playing intensiv type of scenario
(Besides, I got a letter from someone asking for it...)
The game is (loosely) based on 'Cyberpunk', a near future game that has the
quintecential gunplay, but there is a heavy 'social' aspect to it. Players
choose characters from basic templates. (LEGAL NOTE! The following is
copyrighted to R. Talsorian Games and they have full rights thereof. If anyone
uses this type of scenario, I'd suggest calling THEM before you use it. (Mail
me, and I'll produce their phone number for you...) You've been warned)
The basic types of characters are 'Solos' (Mercenaries for hire), Nomads
(Roaming bikers/car drivers with an entitre 'family' behind them),
Rockerboys/Rockergirls (Musicians with a message, and a talent), Fixers (People
who can get what you need, regardless of problemns), Cops (Even a chaotic
future needs law & order), Techies / Medtechies (The former fixes machines, the
latter fixes people), Corporates ('nuff said), Streetpunks (The gangs that run
the streets, or at least that's what they say), and Netrunners (What most of us
probably will end up being in 30-40 years...)
All the 'action' takes place in Night City. (Problem "A", getting a city-scape
big enough to make one end of the action be obscure, and the other end unaware.
If you know a big enough field, problem solved.) Now, granted, and city that
runs a 'body lotto' every night (with numbers in the 20-40 range) has a small
gun problem. The fact that most everyone has cyberwear (Metal parts grafted
onto the 'meat' body) dosn't help much either. So, odds are that everyone is
packin'. At least the smart ones.
As a 'role-playing' intensive scenario you have to tell these people that they
get one 'life' for an entire day of play. (Or, if you want a paint-fest, you
can give them 2 or 3...) Plant several 'gangs' with NPC (Non-Player
Characters, these people are controled by the 'game master' or GM. More on him
later) leaders. Also have several PC (Player Characters, or players) Fixers,
Nomads, Cops, Techies/Medtechs, and Corporates.
Slip in as many NPC's as you want. My personal suggestions are to have NPC
Netrunners, Fixers, Gang-leaders, and Cops. Just about everyone wants to play
either Nomads or Solos, so let them.
You can run as many intertwining plots as you can come up with. A suggestion
drawn from a local game of 'punk:
A fixer (NPC for a LRP game) got her hands on a hot ticket. A program that
does nasty stuff to computer mainframes. So, she hired a small rag-tag group
to keep her protected. (PC solos mostly) Across town, a streetgang called the
'brainiacs' got wind of this program (PC Streetpunks with an NPC boss), and
started 'tailing' her to get more info.
Meanwhile, the corporation that MADE the program wants it back. They send a
fixer to 'negotiate' a way to get it back. However, a rival corp [who's
keeping tabs on the first corp] sees this, and wants to stop this 'transaction'
ASAP (Another PC group for both corps, consisting of corps, solos, and a techie
or two)
Just to add a bit of chaos to the mix [like it needs it], what if another
streetgang decided that tonight would be the night to move in on the Brainacs?
And what if the rival stretgang, 'the rakers' found a new type of drug called
foolkiller that makes someone a combat god?
I'd say the Police would find out, and try to 'get rid of' the drug and the
dealers (PC cops, PC gang, and a PC fixer who's selling the drug...)
Nifty little soap opera, neh?
Now, the role playing! IMAGINE what you can do if you tell the players they
get one life, and that's it. I think people would think with their HEAD and
not their GUNS. You'll have a gun-happy person or two, but the most people
won't get into a gunfight if they don't need to.
Speaking of guns, players will want the maximum. I'd suggest that you let them
bring all they want. However, reming them that casually strolling around with
a semi-auto slung around the back will either make you a target or a prine
suspect if there was a gunfight recently. This is where >Concealability< comes
in handy. How easy is it to hide, say, a PGP over a 68 Special?
'punk also has "Armor", like a 'bullet-proof vest' and the like. This is
harder to regulate, because paintballs are an "all-or-nothing" attack form.
So, you can let players wear 'armor', but you have to make rules for what stops
what. Example : A quick & easy cardboard chest piece stops one splat. (The
second one will make you 'dead'), VENTS body armor (or the like) will stop two
splats (third counts,) JT body armor stops three (fourth counts) and so on.
Armor would have to be repaired after every 'hit'. And, unfortunately,
it's kinda hard to tell an old hit from a fresh one. Player integrity will
have to prevail. Armor can be replaced, but it'll cost ya. (NOTE:This will
require a monetary system integral to the game.) You can also make an 'armored
clothing' for the game too, your choice.
As far as clothing goes, players will want to play in BDU's. Dicourage that!
Attitude is everything! Get them to wear denims. Tell the corporate guys to
wear a suit! Convince the techies to enter the part! Live it up! Which
brings me to...
***
SAFETY
***
EVERYONE on the field of play MUST WEAR GOGGLES! The idea of wearing a mask
makes it harder to communicate, so they're optional (Besides, if your not
wearing a mask, you PROBABLY don't want to get shot in the face, and therefore
won't be as prone to getting into a gunfight.)
Well, that should do it. I would suggest purchasing the book "Cyberpunk 2020"
if you'd like more ideas. All in all, this should give a launching point to
other ideas. If you actually USE this, please drop me a line and I'll do all
in my power to either be there or help write a thought out set of rules and
guidelines. Have fun!
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
"Well, what do you think, sirs?"
-Tyger
**************************************************
"My sense of God is my sense of wonder about the universe"
-Albert Einstein
"What's right is what's left if you've done everything else wrong."
-Robin Williams
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
(The above post)
-Tyger
**************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1993 10:07:00 EST
Reply-To: ArkAngel <DUNN@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: ArkAngel <DUNN@******.BITNET>
Subject: ANDCON '93
ANDCON '93, Ohio's Biggest and Best convention
September 24-26, Independence (just outside of Cleveland) Ohio
Over 500+ events. 23 FIRST RUN RPGA events. 50 page pre-reg.
Held at the Holiday Inn in Independencemost events have their own private
rooms, you've tried the con's that have a noise level through the roof, this
isn't one of them.
Includes an Live Interactive RPGA Living City Event--Yes it's sanctioned, yes
you get to walk through Raven's bluff and see the sights...
If you can think of an RPG system, it's probably going to be played here,
because of that, I'm not listing every system known to man.
Want to get a pre-reg? Want to be on the mailing list? Want to GM one of the
RPGA events (yes, we still need GMs...) then send me private e-mail...
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=Dunn@******.jcu.edu-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
First law of RPG adventure writing:"In any given scenario, there are 4
possible player actions, the three reasonable ones the GM expects, and the one
the players ultimately divise and use."
>>>>>[ArkAngel.Logout]>>>>>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1993 08:59:00 CDT
Reply-To: chuck martin <martin@***.NRLSSC.NAVY.MIL>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: chuck martin <martin@***.NRLSSC.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: skill chips
I have a question. How many skills (or MPs) can a single skill chip hold?
Is it just one? Or is it the size of the single largest program (a level 9
general skill, I think -- I don't have my book with me, and I don't
remember.)? Or is there a maximum number of skills?
If anyone knows, or can point me in the right direction, I would appriciate
it.
Chuck Martin
<martin@***.nrlssc.navy.mil>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1993 16:00:18 BST
Reply-To: "P. Steele" <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: "P. Steele" <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Skill chips
> I have a question. How many skills (or MPs) can a single skill chip hold?
> Is it just one? Or is it the size of the single largest program (a level 9
> general skill, I think -- I don't have my book with me, and I don't
> remember.)? Or is there a maximum number of skills?
>
> If anyone knows, or can point me in the right direction, I would appriciate
> it.
Intresting question as I can see where the idea leads to as I had a similar
idea a while ago. If for example there was no aparent limit on the size of
skill chips, or datachips in general, and we are not given any info to presume
that there is such a limit. Then in theory you could place lots of skills
on one chip. Slot that into your datajack, then using the monitor program
in headware memory you would be able to download whatever skill you needed.
If you had skillwires and I would hazard a guess at a SPU as well, then it
should be possible to download active skills as well.
As to a real limit you can only guess, I would probably say take the largest
skill chip available, double it then round upwards to the nearest 100 MP. But
thats just my opinion.
The Powerhouse
--
Phillip Steele |
|
P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk |
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1993 12:24:00 EDT
Reply-To: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Patric 'Procrastination' Rogers <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Subject: Skillchips: just an opinion
I was always under the impression that one chip held one skill. Not that
they were limited, but rather that was how they were produced. Personally,
I always uploaded them to headware memory or external memory + datajack.
Boy, this list has been quite lately - is this what the summer will bring?
Patric
progers@******.bitnet
GO d--- p/-p+ c+++ m++/m- s+++/+ g+ w+ x+
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1993 15:21:45 CDT
Reply-To: James Thomas O'Brien <jto@******.RICE.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: James Thomas O'Brien <jto@******.RICE.EDU>
nomail shadowrn Jim O'Brien
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1993 23:57:09 -0400
Reply-To: aa2486@*******.lorain.oberlin.edu
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Matt Jadud <aa2486@*******.LORAIN.OBERLIN.EDU>
Subject: Skillchips
There would be a lot less confusion if the book was
opened....
I will use two sources two explain Skillsofts: If you have
either, read it there for more indepth.
SR IInd Edition: Page 248, under Skillsofts....
ShadowTech: Pages 46,47,48
Skillwires are required for the use of ANY active skill -
ie. you must have skillwires to use ANY active skill chip. You may
access Knowsofts by loading them into internal memory IF you
have a datasoft link, or through a chipjack. Datasofts are the
same in most ways as Knowsofts.
There are defined limits on skillsofts! Read the BOOK!
Skillsoft rating may not exceed the level of skillwires, and
and no matter how many chips you have in a softlink, you may
never access more levels of chip than you have levels of softlink.
MP ratings for chips are given on the pages above.
Rules. Gotta love 'em.
--
"With the whine of transducers coming on Mr Spock beams
off into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas,
a dimension of sight.. and sound..."
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1993 15:44:34 -0500
Reply-To: Hobbes Patrol Headquarters <TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Hobbes Patrol Headquarters <TYGER@****.WINONA.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Multi-skill Skill Chips
(Pleaseworkpleaseworkpleasework...)
>I was always under the impression that one chip held one skill. Not that
>they were limited, but rather that was how they were produced. Personally,
>I always uploaded them to headware memory or external memory + datajack.
They do. But it can be a total GM call. I fall back to Cyberpunk (No
cringing, please) and Chrome book 1. They introduced multi-skilled chips.
Keep in mind that each skill was low (+1 on average) but the chip could
hold several skills (All at +1...)
So, an Idea! (Patented from Tyger industries...) How about a multi-chip
that holds lots of skills at low level?
(Idea follows, no cybercarping, please...)
Tourister Chip (For the NAN regions)
For X Nuyen (Debate is open for it...) you get the following skills at the
following levels on one chip...
Local Customs......1 Local Law.......1
Negotiate (Specialised Bargain/Haggle)..........2
And a call-up list of local eateries............2 (Easy Yellow pages)
Opinions?
>Boy, this list has been quite lately - is this what the summer will bring?
>progers@******.bitnet
Crickets in the astral, perhaps?
-Tyger
**************************************************
"My sense of God is my sense of wonder about the universe"
-Albert Einstein
"What's right is what's left if you've done everything else wrong."
-Robin Williams
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
(The above post)
-Tyger
**************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1993 22:18:19 +0100
Reply-To: Troy <T.Hoskison@********.AC.UK>
Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
From: Troy <T.Hoskison@********.AC.UK>
Subject: Floor plans for sr
Hello,
I have just invested some money in buying some Shadowrun minitures.
Unfortunately I can't get hold of any floor plans. Considering the number
of 21 centry RPG I am suprised that there must be some. Is there anyone
out there that could tell me if there is any and who makes them.
Thank you in advance.
_____ (!) Constipation means never having to give a SH*T
_ooO/_0 0_\Ooo__
|____|(_)_|____| If the world had piles they'd be in Wales.
|__|____|____|_|
|____|____|____| Troy Hoskion (t.hoskison@********.ac.uk)
|__|____|____|_| or (92230282@********.ac.uk)
Wot No bog roll
