From:	"Like, dude, where's the firefight?" <MURRAYMD@******.BITNET>
Subject:	Herr Dokter, a refutation of your proposal...
Date:	Fri, 16 Apr 1993 11:33:02 -0400

>Meine Kamaraden:

> A local Game Master (and good friend of mine) who does not,
>incidentally, participate in the discourse on this list approached me with a
>request as to modification of the ShadowRun Magic System.

Ohhh... Now what!!! He probably wants to make Initiates more
powerful or something. Aaarrrggghhh!!! :)

>(Ahhh...hearken unto the groans from the audience!)

> Part of her motivation was due to the feeling that Initiates should
>receive far more tangible benefits--true, the become privy to the powers of
>Metamagic, but this is rather removed from day-to-day spellcasting, with the
>possible exception of Centering--although its effects are rather indirect for
>my taste.

He does!!! He does!!! Run for your lives!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> Another motivation of this is that the Magic Attribute, or as expressed
>in ShadowRun II, the Magic Rating, has precious little bearing on everyday
>spellcasting. She is of the opinion (a sentiment which I share, incidentally),
>that Magic is, or rather should be, composed of a three-tiered system:

Here I would have to disagree. While it does not have too much to
do with the casting of Fire Balls which would rarely be cast at a high
rating, your innocuous/low drain area effect detection spells are affected.
The Magic Attribute defines the max force of the spell and the area that it
covers. The higher the magic attribute, the more that you could
potentially detect.

>Aptitude: The Sorcery Skill
>Experience: The Magic Attribute, raised via Initiation
>Power Level: The Force of the spell

WHOOAA!!! Hang on. Magic Attribute does not equate into
experience. Experience comes in the way of karma. This is expressed in
the character with a higher Sorcery skill or Initiation. Magic Attribute
is a measure of the body's ability to handle magical energies. The body
can be conditioned to handle more magical energy through Initiation. The
Magic Attribute is not a measure of experience, but experience can be used
to allow the body to accept more magical energy: Initiation.

>All three should be important to the role and implementation of magic in the
>System. And this is the assumption from which I shall be drawing conclusions
>in this proposal.

(Shadowrun I stuff deleted.)

>However, now there is Initiation, the ability to raise the Magic Attribute, and
>yet, it plays NO substantial role--considering how much it cost to Initiate,
>and the supposed natural potency of Vampires, it SHOULD be more important.

When you Initiate you are not paying boatloads of karma primarily
for the increased Magic Attribute but for the Metamagic capabilities.
Snicker not at these metamagic capabilities! If some metamagic is not good
enough for you then my assumption is that you are not using it correctly!

>GRIMOIRE II:
>Magic Pool: Sorcery Skill
>Casting-- Magic Pool + Force of Spell
>Resist: Force of Spell

>Sounds familiar, eh? The force of the spell has been re-integrated into the
>system, after a long absence. However, NOW the Magic Attribute determines
>precious few things: Radius of spells and maximum spell force cast without
>physical drain... and how many dice of one's Magic Pool may be brought to bear
>into spell casting. Experience and aptitude only count as far as the Sorcery
>skill is considered.

How right you are! You did forget one thing though: Higher force
spells. While you and you group may not your magic users as such, some
groups have their magic users expand their spell list with more diverse
and/or powerful spells. Do not discount this path to power for Initiation
is only a more popular path.
Another path that should not be overlooked is Sorcery skill
raising. For roughly the same karma cost of Initiating to Level 0 (plus or
minus a few points) you can raise your Sorcery skill by 2 points. These 2
points are added to your Magic Pool. When you sit back and actually think
about the implications I think you'll get as many goosebumbs as I do. :)

>THE PROPOSAL...
>Magic Pool: Magic Attribute
>Casting-- Sorcery Skill (for casting only) + Magic Pool (for drain or casting)
>Resist: Force

>This way, all three tiers in the system are salient. Initiates will have an
>easier time making spells hurt, as they simply possess more dice.

>In this way, EXPERIENCE COUNTS both ways... Adroitness with the skill of
>Sorcery is obviously a great boon. In addition, the new Magic Pool gives the
>magician the edge that such experienced and INITIATED magic-users should have.
>Further, the innate magical capabilities of Vampires are facilitated using
>this.

But what about the magic user that through their experiences has
*lost* magic attribute? Not all magic users go and Initiate. Those that
don't have a possibility of losing Magic Attribute via Deadly wounds,
hospital visits, etc...

>Force has not lost its importance. With the Force still being part of the
>resistance test, the magnitude of thaumaturgical force which is brought to bear
>is conveyed. An experienced Mage casting a Force 1 fireball, unless he has a
>box full of dice, shall witness his targets shrugging the spell off without
>issue. Therefore, a Magician shall still be inclined towards throwing Force 6
>spells, if for no other reason than he wishes his targets to have a difficult
>time rolling them down.

Yet you are still making the spell more powerful than what it was
under the unmodified rules. While what you say is nice for combat spells,
you have not considered the effects on Detection, Health, Illusion, and
some Manipulation spells. The force of the spell is expressed both in the
resistance target number (if applicable) *and* the number of dice thrown.
Under your revisions I could cast a force 1 Detect Life spell yet roll more
than 2 dice for the success test. And here there is no resistance roll.

>RATIONALE

>Casting is, in my opinion, a test to determine with what degree of ability did
>one successfully manipulate the thaumaturgical forces. Obviously, Sorcery
>skill belongs there. The resistance test determines how well the target's body
>can withstand the magnitude of the damaging metaphysical energies that are
>being channeled into his aura. Force is the best definition for this.
>Following this idea, it still shall behoove a Magician to cast high-force
>spells, to assure that his target will experience at least some difficulty in
>resisting the damage.

Part of that difficulty comes in how many successes the target has
to beat down. The number of successes is dependent upon how powerful the
spell is. Under your system the force of the spell has no bearing on how
many successes are possible. The more powerful the spell, the more
successful you potentially could be in casting an effective spell. Force
has less of an impact now.

>Now, as to Magic Attribute. If the level of Magic determines one's level of
>affinity with the Astral Plane--whe'er it is the level of the relationship to
>one's Totem, or the degree to which one is attuned and knowledgeable as to the
>nature and laws of Magic. This explanation also extends to the peculiar
>instance of Vampires, as due to their increased Essence, or Life Force (putting
>aside the rather questionable circumstances under which it was acquired) they
>possess an innately greater proximity to the Magical Realm.

Magic Attribute is not an attunuation of the body to the Astral.
It is a measure of how much magic you can handle. If the book says
otherwise I would like to know the page number for reference.
It is interesting that you mention vampires. By your postulate you
are saying that Vampires are inherently better magic users because of their
better attunuation. Why should magical virus infected individuals be
better spellcasters when they only suffer from wildly variating essence?
If you feel that Vampires should be better spellcasters then give them a
higher Sorcery skill to through against the players. If you are posting
these proposed changes so that PC Vampires can be more powerful then I will
let you find the wet carp on your own accord.

>In the case of all magic users, it stands to reason that this affinity, this
>familiarity can be employed in the process of the wielding spells, and hence
>it is logical that it occupies a place in the Casting spell test. Also, being
>attuned to the _nature_ of preternatural energies, it is not unreasonable to
>argue that one may receive insight as to methods by which one may utilize the
>metaphysical forces while lessening the impact upon the corporeal form. The
>closer one is, the greater ability one has to wield it without harm. This
>translates into the ability to use the Magic Pool to reduce drain.

Refer to above arguments.

>Why am I inclined towards this system? Initiates receive a more tangible edge
>in the day-to-day of magic for all their efforts. Also, neither Sorcery or
>Force has been discounted, as happened in Grimoire I.

Why should Initiates be more powerful in the brute force matters of
spellcasting? If anything they should be better at the goofy little things
in magic such as the meta-magical capabilities. When I hear a good reason
why Initiates should be better at the more brutish aspects of magic then we
will proceed from there.

>Now, as to disclaimers:

>If you are content with the present system, FINE. My desire is to formulate an
>equitable alternative for those who question the small role Magic Rating
>occupies in the system. My purpose is not to have members extolling the
>virtues of the present system and vilify me for impinging upon its pristine
>beauty...etc, etc.

I only question your interpretations of the various subjects
presented here. If your assumptions were correct then you might have some
ground to stand on. Unfortunately for your arguments I question the
validity of the assumptions and definitions made.

>I have not railed out against the present system, calling for reform and
>revision. I approached this problem as a theoretician would, that upon
>encountering a problem, proposed a solution, which is then put to the tests
>that it must be logical, rational, as well as both feasible and equitable in
>its role in the system. Note that I am not floccinaucinihilipilificating the
>present system--In truth, I am actually rather fond of the apparatus as
>presented in Grimoire II; what I put forth here is only intended as a viable
>alternative.

And hence why I have responded to your post in a hopefully
respectable manner. As can be expected this refutation of your posting was
intended in a non-inflammatory manner.

> Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc, PhD.

> Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark Thought Publications
> >>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
<<<
> [ Doctor Doom : jch8169@********.tamu.edu ]


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