From:	The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject:	Mana from Heavan
Date:	Sat, 23 Oct 1993 15:09:07 GMT

>>Initiations Grades and their definitions are a game construct.

> Wrong. I don't claim to know much about Amerindian shamanism, but
>Initiation has been part of European Paganism for as far back as our oral
>history goes. Which means at least before the development of agriculture.

Ah, but Initiation in Shadowrun is still a construct. It may be based on a
real belief system, but there's no way it can be wholly compatible with you
initiation systems, Druids, shamans, and innumerable other sets of 'magic rules'
both real and imagined. Furthermore, each of those Initiation systems are
construct themselves, to put order to the natural scheme of things.

Western Sorcery (the basis for the game's Hermetic Path) also
recognises Initation, and has a complex system of grades and levels.

Is this THE basis for Hermetic Magic? I think not. I believe Hume looked at a
variety of magical beliefs and created a system that could workably encompass
all of them. And it's entirely possible that he got his idea from someone else
who got the idea from Western Sorcery.

> BTW, you don't have to be an initiate to center or shield. I can do
>both.

How do you know you're not an Initiate. Sorry, but I don't think you need
some artificial man-made ceremony, even one dating back to times of yore,
to progress--that goes for anything. All these techniques and rituals, they
just help us focus-but it doesn't matter which one you use, and some people
are perfectly capable without them.

>Kristi Hunk-Ra, first magician in space. How did she come by her knowledge?

> Training from early childhood in a family tradition.

I assume you refer to the knowledge.

> Of course, as far as I know no magician has actually been in space,
>so it s only a theory. But it is a sound one.

Is there no way to test this theory?
I don't deny it validity, but it's not the only valid game in town.

>Shadowrun is a game. If magic is real the rules for magic in Srun are probably
>as close to the way magic really works as the Matrix is to showing how computer
>networks really work.

> The SR magick system is BASED on the real thing. No other game
>system even comes close, but the 1st Grimoire had echoes of my own training
>in it. In fact, I initially suspected Paul Hume of being a sorcerer,
>because of the accuracy and the Hermetic bias in terminology. However, the
>discrepancies between SR magick and real magick have lessened my
>suspicions. Of course, those discrepancies may be for the sake of game
>balance. Correcting them would make mages very powerful after the
>Awakening.

'course he edited things down for G2. A good magician never reveals his tricks
(or is that Trix?).

I only have to ask: WHICH real thing?

>Heck, we're powerful now. Just because we can't lob off fireballs-

Just what CAN you do?

> Like I said before. This is real magick, not SR magick. Take it or
>leave it.

I'll leave it, thank you. My fantasy worlds are MY fantasy worlds and I'll
tailor them to fit.


J Roberson
Playing Skeptic