| From: | Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE> |
|---|---|
| Subject: | Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO! |
| Date: | Tue, 6 Jun 1995 15:39:21 +0200 |
> > system is not bad. Its pretty good actually, much better than most of the
> > stuff you get out there. But SR's magic is way better - its more straight
> > forward (something that can be said for the whole system) and yet it
> > manages to remain interesting.
> I don't dispute that SRs system is straightforward, game mechanics wise
> its really good, and yes there are a lot of interesting spells out there;
Not only spells, it has all kinds of cool (and detailed) stuff about
summoning, the metaplanes, spell design, enchanting (anchorings/quieckenings)
and loads of other stuff that only get lip service in other systems.
> its just I'd like to see a theme, or underlying principle to the
> collection of Spells a Mage knows. I guess my perceptions are coloured by
> WWGS's Mage:The Ascension where a Mage who studies the sphere of Forces
> can use that knowledge to 'cast spells' like FireBall (Kinetic Forces
> increased in molecules to the point of combustion) and Lightning Bolt
> (electrical forces) but also to spell like Darksight (able to perceive
> the Infra Red forces), this leads to a variety of seemingly unrelated
> spells which do have a commonality. Now maybe SR magic does have this
> commonality as well, but FASA don't explain it -and that is my gripe.
Well there is nothing stopping you from selecting your spells
just that way. I mean thats one of the best things about the SR
system, it doesnt cram anything down your throat. If you want such
a restriction, go ahead and choose your spells that way, no one
is stopping you.
> > Well, we live in an imperfect world so what did you expect. Nevertheless
> > FASA has the most solid background I have ever seen.
> Background in terms of history -yes. But background in terms of
> explaining *why* magic works I believe could do with a bit of work.
Well I cant force my view on you, but as I see it SR has the
most solid basis for its magic system.
> > I agree that there
> > is the ocasional slip-up (even though most of them can be explained away
> > with WYTIWYG),
> WYTIWYG? If this means what you think is what you get, then my whole
> point is that yes I probably could fill in FASA's gaps but I shouldn't
> have to. I don't know how you're using the acronym WYTIWYG (or even if I
> have interpreted it correctly) so please correct me if I have
> misinterpretted you.
WYTIWYG means What You Think Is What You and was coined a coupla
months back during a somewhat intense discussion about HB.
Anyway it means that the magician projects his own perception of
reality (or what he expects from reality) on the energies
of the astral thereby giving himself the ability to use those
energies to alter "real reality". The problem is that people
also take the limitations of their perception with them
thereby limiting their own selves.
> > What makes you think that a magician should be able to cast with
> > the help of a magically generated image in the first place ?
> Ah this is how your interpretation of how this spell works and mine
> conflict. I don't see Clairvoyance as bringing an image to a mage (and
> thus it being a magically *generated* image. I see Clairvoyance as the
> mage 'relocating' his senses so that he sees the image as if he was
> there. But this emphaises my point anyway. You ask 'What makes me think
> that a magician should be able to cast with the help of a magically
> generated image in the first place?', my reply is 'What has FASA written
> that explains why a Mage can't in terms of the metaphysics of magic and
> not game balance?' (they might have done something about having to
> synchronise auras -I can't remember- but then to do that surely a
> Sorcerer Adept would need to perceive astrally, if only for a split
> second).
Well as far as Clairvoyance is concerned, I think that the rules
speak for the "image generating" explanation. So I think that further
debate is of no use. As for sorcerer adepts and aura synchronisation
(believe it or not we've had this before :) I can only say, WYTIWYG.
In other words the adepts believes (wants) myself to be an adept
and therefore is an adept with limited sences.
> > Anyway to answer your other question, I think that its only a matter
> > of perspective. From a WYTIWYG POV there is no problem whatsoever,
> > the caster belives that he can ground through someone with a combat
> > spell and he knows that if its an area of effect spell it'll hit everyone
> > in the vimcinity and so it happens.
> Hold on, I think I may have misinterpretted your use of WYTIWYG before.
> Now you seem to be saying that What the *Mage* thinks is what he gets,
> right? Well if this is your explanation, then my reply is what do I tell
> my player when he says 'but my mage doesn't think like that, maybe others
> mages do but I don't. So why can't I just do X?'
Easy, there is such a thing called "the current world view". Each
member of the society of SR shares that world view, either they want
it or not. In the NAGM you can find some pretty cool examples of
people that are mentaly sick and therefore have their own world view.
Anyway, such a player character is out of the question as he can no
longer be considered controlable - the same as overcybered dudes.
> If FASA puts these game balance limitations into the game I feel that
> they should also give a Story reason why as well. And WYTIWYG just won't
> cut it in my games, as not all mages think the same they have different
> paradigms (sorry, too much M:tA :)
Different paradigms - same planet - same physical reality :)
> Personally I actually like my solution better which I thought of on the
> fly on my last post, and that was that a Mage can cast spells at non
> astral targets when he is astral, but only *if* he can calibrate the
> spell to traverse the gap between teh Astral Plane and Real Space, and
> because Astral Space is continually fluctuating in its 'closeness' to
> real space (as the tides of mana ebb and flow) then the mage always needs
> an immediate measuring guage by which to calculate that 'gap'. When he is
> not astral, this is instinctive as he is in Real Space and he draws the
> spell from the astral, so by his own location he knows when he's pulled
> the spell far enough across the divide. But when that mage is astral he
> has no guage to tell him if he has pushed the spell enough or too much
> across the divide between Astral and Physical. The only Guage possible
> are dual beings, including active foci etc, in which case the mage has to
> focus (ie target/centre) upon these guages when casting the spell. Once the
> spell has been calibrated it can travel across the divide and 'hit' any
> target, astral or not.
I dont meant to be an ass, but this is totally out of bounds as it
allows for magicians to cast spells at people when projecting.
> Sorry, I didn't mean to do that, but this illustrates what I think the SR
> magic system is lacking. I just explained 3 game balancing rules (need of
> a dual being to cast spells at physical targets, why spells can't be
> sustained in the astral, and why a Mage receives a +2 TN for sustaining a
> spell) with a single in-game metaphysical explanation which doesn't rely
> on how a Mage thinks. Now my explanation may not be very good, but at
> least I atempted to do it and do it so there don't seems to be
> inconsistencies, whereas FASA don't always manage this (or attempt it even).
There are perfectly good explanations for all 3 cases. In order to
cast a spell to the physical from the astral you need a gate (dual being)
a perfectly logical explanation AFAIK. As for your second example
(sustained spells in the astral) well, I know that you cant go
astral *and* sustain spells (wich is perfectly logical as its an
exclusive action) but I am not that sure that you canot sustain spells
while projecting. As for the +2, I cant nonestly see your problem,
what did you expect ? Magicians sustaining x gazillion spells with no
significant overhead ? I dont think so, this is not a case of
game balance, but rather a case of common sence.
--
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