| From: | Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE> |
|---|---|
| Subject: | Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO! |
| Date: | Wed, 7 Jun 1995 16:23:24 +0200 |
> > summoning, the metaplanes, spell design, enchanting (anchorings/quieckenings)
> > and loads of other stuff that only get lip service in other systems.
> Agreed, I guess my main gripe is with the spell exlpanations.
I know what you mean, and I cant say that I blame you. Spell
explanations are however not an integral part of the magic system, you could
after all redesign the spells bugging you (check out Gurth's Tech Specs for a
complete list of all SR spells with reverse engineering data on them) and give
your own explanations about each and every one of them.
> > Well there is nothing stopping you from selecting your spells
> > just that way. I mean thats one of the best things about the SR
> > system, it doesnt cram anything down your throat. If you want such
> > a restriction, go ahead and choose your spells that way, no one
> > is stopping you.
> Yeah, I may as a player do that but nine times out of ten a player will
> go for a collection of all the most useful spells and to heck with any
> other logic in their choices.
You are once again correct, but as I said one of SR's main virtues
is the freedom of choice it gives to the players. So if you feel that
this freedom is too much, feel free to restrict it in any way you see fit.
> > WYTIWYG means What You Think Is What You and was coined a coupla
> > months back during a somewhat intense discussion about HB.
> > Anyway it means that the magician projects his own perception of
> > reality (or what he expects from reality) on the energies
> > of the astral thereby giving himself the ability to use those
> > energies to alter "real reality". The problem is that people
> > also take the limitations of their perception with them
> > thereby limiting their own selves.
> Yeah, I sort of got that impression later on, and while i agree its a
> factor it seems that lately its has been the non-specific answer to any
> magic question -which I feel is a cop out, I want other theories, the
> theories that these *Mages* have which in turn make them think they can
> only do X and not anything more. IE WYTIWYG may be the limit of magic
> (and when you break that barrier to a large degree it becomes magicK (too
> much Mage:tA :) )but I want the reasons why mages think like that in the
> first place -there must be a reason.
Dont get me wrong I did not mean to use WYTIWYG as the answer to
every question concerning magic. What I meant to say is that WYTIWYG
is the basis of the magical reality, a sort of hidden truth. It is
something totally useless to us in game terms, but it nevertheless
has the power to demonstrate that the SR magic system is something more
than a jumble of game-balance decisions. And as far as I know its
the only theory that unifies both SR and ED magic systems :)
I only mention it when people start asking fundamental questions
like "why is glass transparent in the astral".
> > Well as far as Clairvoyance is concerned, I think that the rules
> > speak for the "image generating" explanation. So I think that further
> > debate is of no use. As for sorcerer adepts and aura synchronisation
> > (believe it or not we've had this before :) I can only say, WYTIWYG.
> > In other words the adepts believes (wants) myself to be an adept
> > and therefore is an adept with limited sences.
> Again, I prefer the reason why the person believes he is only an adept.
I understand, that reason may range form something as dramatic as your own
example to basic phobias and early childhood experiences (i.e. a magically
active child accidentaly played around with fire as a child, setting
his room on fire and therefore has a lifelong mental block when it comes
to spells.) Anyway what actually matters for us is the fact that
addepts only have reduced powers, the actuall reason maybe WYTIWYG,
or it could just as easily be a defective/mutated gene or something, but
it all comes down to reduced powers. This is a fact and it canot be changed
everything else is academic.
> having the Avatar corrupted in some way -Gilgul perhaps- or being blocked
> from learning the Sphere of Spirit. BUT FASA GIVE NO SR EXPLANATIONS!
> (and yet I can give explanations in terms of another system!!!!!!!!!!)
Well the infamous magus-factor has been directly and indirectly mentioned
in numerous FASA products.
> > > Now you seem to be saying that What the *Mage* thinks is what he gets,
> > > right? Well if this is your explanation, then my reply is what do I tell
> > > my player when he says 'but my mage doesn't think like that, maybe others
> > > mages do but I don't. So why can't I just do X?'
> >
> > Easy, there is such a thing called "the current world view". Each
> > member of the society of SR shares that world view, either they want
> > it or not.
> Okay I agree that there are such things as world wide paradigms but I
> don't believe that all magicians (the individuals who are supposed to
> challenge mundane logic) would share the same view -and in fact they
> don't, hence the difference between Hermetics and Shamans, however I
> believe there should be more divisions than justy two (I hate to use M:tA
> as an example again but there they have the *9* Traditions each with a
> different world view paradigm, and then there are the Conventions,
> Nephandi, Marauders etc)
Well there are more divisions that the famous two. In SR we have
Hermetics, North Amerikan Shamen, Celtic Druids, English Druids,
European Pagans, Elves of the Ways and the Paths, Initiates, Afrikan
Shamen and hosts of variations of these basic motifs.
> > In the NAGM you can find some pretty cool examples of
> > people that are mentaly sick and therefore have their own world view.
> > Anyway, such a player character is out of the question as he can no
> > longer be considered controlable - the same as overcybered dudes.
> But there shouls be someway to keep them playable, I mean they managed it
> with hermetics and shamans, A mage believes that the only way he can
> conjure a spirit is through long rituals while a shaman believes he can
> just conjure one up in a second -yet shamans are not thought of as
> uncontrollable as they have other limitations imposed (eg the *number* of
> spirits they believe they can control at one time).
Well this is a basic principle in SR, that individuals who cross a certain
line (i.e. lower than 0 essense dudes) are no longer viable as players. So
I guess the same goes with those "other world view magicians". I mean there
is nothing that could stop you as a GM to allow your players to play a character
like that, but if you decide to do somarhing like that be prepared to
face all sorts of weird problems.
> > > If FASA puts these game balance limitations into the game I feel that
> > > they should also give a Story reason why as well. And WYTIWYG just won't
> > > cut it in my games, as not all mages think the same they have different
> > > paradigms (sorry, too much M:tA :)
That may be so, but we are all human beings that grew up on the planet earth.
This might sound prety rediculus, but just stop for a seconds and think about
the common cultural background this gives us. We all expect to live in a 3D
environment, we expect glass to be transparent, we all aknoledge the existence
of animals/plants. This list is huge, and its made up of all the basic stuff
that help us shape our perception of the astral in way that our intelect can
cope with it.
> I may not have been clear in what I was proposing, basically the mage
> would need to recalibrate the spell each time it was used (as the Divide
> ebbs and flows with the Mana, as before the Sixth world the Divide was
> too wide to allow spells to be 'brought' over or too allow Astral
> Travel). And a mage needs to focus (ie centre the spell) on the dual
> being/item to act as the guage. The mechanics and limitations remain the
> same as in the SR rules, I've just given it what I consider a more
> coherent explanation. I just never liked how FASA explained it as
> *grounding* a spell as this seems to imply that the astral spell
> traverses the divide to the physical plane through the bridge, and then
> an area effect spell would radiate out from the bridge *in the physical
> plane* which Combat spells do not.
As I said before, the answer to that is quite simple. If you cant live
with a WYTIWYG explanation just say that damaging manipulations (instead of
combat spells) can ground like that. Now they do spread in the physical plane
thereby relieving you of your problem :)
> > There are perfectly good explanations for all 3 cases. In order to
> > cast a spell to the physical from the astral you need a gate (dual being)
> > a perfectly logical explanation AFAIK.
> But see my reservations about the use of the word "grounding" and the
> fact that area effect combat spells don't go through that gate but
> continue on in Astral space until they reach the target and *then*
> manifest themselves on the physical plane (apparently not needing a gate
> now).
I understand, as I said the solution are damaging manipulations. I mean
for all we know this could be a fragging typo. Mybe FASA wanted to say
damaging manipulations and some dumbass wrote combat spells instead.
> > As for the +2, I cant nonestly see your problem,
> > what did you expect ? Magicians sustaining x gazillion spells with no
> > significant overhead ? I dont think so, this is not a case of
> > game balance, but rather a case of common sence.
> I didn't have *any* problem with this, all I was doing was showing that as
> a side effect of explaining why an Astral mage needs a dual being to cast
> a spell at non-astral targets, I also was able to give a description on
> the type of concentration needed to sustain a spell and which led to the
> +2 TN modifier. Another explanation of what leads to the +2 TN is that
> the mage is concentrating on trying to prevent the spell's Astral form
> unravelling, or perhaps its because the mage must concentrate to on
> feeding the spell astral energy. These are two more reasons why the mage
> needs to concentrate on sustaining a spell (and thus receive a +2 TN
> modifier), my original reason of having to concentrate on adjusting the
> spell so it can continue to bridge the Divide, was just another
> explanation of what caused the +2 Tn. I wasn't saying there was anything
> wrong with the +2 TN i was merely showing that my one explanation gave
> *reasons* for three different game mechanics which are already in the SR
> game.
Well if I am not grossly mistaken the is an oficial FASA explanation
concerning the +2 modifier. The explanation is that "raw casting"
(as oposed to casting using matrices - this bit of info comes from ED)
requires that the magician channel the energy used up by the spell
through his own body. This proces is not that easy (and it gets
harder if the astral energy becomes tainted - like in background count
situations) and thats why masting magicians get the +2 modifier.
> I am looking for in-game theories and reasons (beyond the WYTIWYG reason),
> *not* game mechanics and a reiterance of FASA's in-game theories -which
> I believe are flawed and which was the whole reason for this thread.
I am a staunch believer in the SR system and I always try to find
explanations that are within the system. Anything non-canonical is
just that, non-canonical.
> Sorry to go on but I have not yet been convinced that the SR magic system
> is perfect and yet there are a few people out there who are convinced it
> is -I'd either like you to convert me.....<puts on best Darth Vader
> impression>.....or you can come over to the Dark Side.<sounds as if he is
> having an asthma attack and then switches off Darth Vader mode> :)
I'm working on it :)
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