| From: | Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE> |
|---|---|
| Subject: | Re: gamemastering |
| Date: | Wed, 23 Aug 1995 02:15:07 +0200 |
agree with him, and not only negative responses should hit the
list:
> On 22 Aug 95 at 14:35, Terry Amburgey wrote:
>
> > >This is starting to look like a
> > >personal verdetta against GM's,
> > No, I just want to discuss refereeing rpg's.
>
> I read your post where you gave your reasons for phrasing the first
> one the way you did. And I think its a lame excuse; you maybe you
> would have gotten less answers, but they would be more constructive
> than the ones you got now, so failed attempt, try again.
And, IMnajsHO there is to add: Accusing GMs (in general) to fudge dice
rolls for their own ends is not what I would call "discussion" (of course
this point of view _is_ open to discussion :-)
> The only
> thing you'll achieve by this is that people tend to think after the
> umptied "Terry against the GM" post: "delete, the guy doesn't phrase
> his questions politely and he just wants to be a pain in the *ss".
>
> > >and I do not like the way you phrase
> > >your "point of view/question".
> > As Eve pointed out, life isn't fair.
>
> I know, but that has nothing to do with the rude way you accused the
> GM's on the list.
>
Hm. If life isn't fair (a quote from "Bride of Prince" (??? Don' know
English Tile, is a book by Morgenstern, re-written by some other guy,
german Title is "Braut des Prinzen")?), this should be no excuse for
you, me, Cugel, Eve, anyone, not to be fair in discussions!
> > >As a GM I try to give my players a
> > >good evening/night full of fun by writing and running the
> > >adventures.
Hm, I GM to have fun, too... along with the players.
> > >Not because I like to kill them of, want to play God,
> > >am a notorious cheater, or want to "win". My first and most
> > >important concern is that my players like the game. I see myself
> > >more like an author writing a book for his audience, than an
> > >all-powerfull God.
>
> > As the author of the book, it's 'your' book. Maintaining the
> > integrity of 'your' game is how gm's 'win'.
>
> Nonsense, the "book" was just a metaphore. I write the start and
> think of a plot and then the players and I finish it.
> It's impossible to maintain the integrity of "my" game when you work
> together with your players, who give most of the input. The thing I
> /can/ do is by using logic and common sense think of the ways the
> players will go and prepare myself for that. But sometimes I just go
> with the flow and let my players do all the work and just react to
> their input. But that doesn't work all the time, so my task as a GM
> cannot be just a referee, I need to guide the players most of the
> time. As the book says I'm their eyes, ears and other senses. You
> cannot be a referee, you'll need to add your own creativity to the
> game to make it a great game.
And since you develop the world, the feeling to it, or at least take
a given world and develop it, you _start_ with your own creativity!
>
> > The proprietary attitude
> > of some [not all I will grant you] gm's is one of the elements of
> > gamemastering where I have a different view. Think back to the
> > fudging-dice-rolls thread. One commonly cited situation was 'the
> > plotline required something to happen/not happen so I fudged the
> > dice to make it happen/not happen'. That's how gm's can 'win' -
> > they've created a scenario and its gonna happen come hell/high
> > water/bad dice rolls.
>
> Don't continually use "black and white" examples. Live isn't black
> and white, and so is gaming. I only fudge the dice when it's
> absolutely going to ruin the game for my players if I don't.
> And, what's wrong with that? Think of the James Bond movies;
> Bond gets captured at least once every film. If you were the bad
> guy you would kill him directly, not by some devious, and mostly
> stupid, way.
I did this _once_ to one of my players. Have the bad guy capture him,
then place a bullet right between his eyes. Heck, it was no fun. The
player _did_ feel cheated!
> But then the film ends after 15 minutes, and the only
> thing you have achieved is that your audience feels cheated. So it's
> sometimes necessary to cheat in order not to cheat your players out
> of an evening of fun.
Agree!
> > >And about the "winning": what the heck is there to win for a
GM??!!
> > >If he kills all the PC's? I'm never even thinking about winning
> > >when I'm GM-ing. If you're still roleplaying in terms of "winning
> > >and losing" its time to play normal games and move away from RPG's.
> > >The only way I "win" a game, is when my players have enjoyed
> > >themselves and liked the adventure.
>
> > Is it your game or the group's game? If it's your game and not the
> > group's then you have an agenda and a way of winning and losing.
>
> I lost you completely here. WE play Shadowrun, not: I AM GM and
> there are some spesky nuisances called players who want to ruin my
> great story (hey, if you continue to put it in black and white, I can
> do it also).
> And if I want a great NPC to survive and he/she gets hosed by a lucky
> shot, yes I use some of my GM-karma pool to save him/her.
As one would save a great PC who was developed over a long, long time
and hit by a lucky shot (well, _lucky_ is just a matter of sides :-)
and would drop dead if the GM does _not_ "use some of [his/her] GM-
karma pool to save him/her." Well, I do i by fudging dices, do not use
"GM-karma pool" :-), but hey, it's easier that way :-)
> How would
> you like it if Darth Vader stumbled over a step in part 1 and Luke
> chopped his head of? I'm sure my players get al lot of satisfaction
> out of killing a very old enemy (I like their manically laughter when
> they do so :).
I just like that "Wheeew, finally" that comes up when that nasty old NPC
drops down backward some Austrian waterfall! (Hm, didn't I read that
before somewhere? Hm... :-)
> > Sometimes it is wrong and it is cheating and I've tried very
> > reasonably to explain why I hold that opinion.
> Perhaps, but you don't offer any alternatives, and that's my biggest
> problem with your posts. Tell me what you would do if the PC's ruin
> the plot in such a way that it is absolutely impossible to continue
> the adventure. Would you just stop and say: "well that's it for tonight.
> I know it's only 21.00, but sorry the adventure is finished. Anyone
> wanna see a film?" ?
>
> > If you like, you and Mr. Ely, and I can compare gaming experience
> > via private email.
I would _not_ like to see this discu... dialo... threat vanish from the
list, for the reasons Cugul will give us:
> > At any rate, as long as it's within the
> > guidelines of the list, I feel free to whine as necessary.
>
> I think the list will do fine for now, because there is a lot of
> reaction on this thread. And you're free to whine, only don't do it
> all the time, and try to offer some constructive arguments to this
> thread.
>
> (Eve was right, this is great for letting of steam! :)
:-), as I said before :-)
> Many an ancient lord's last words had been, "You can't kill me
> because I've got magic aaargh."
> (Terry Pratchett, Interesting Times)
"Archchancelor, may I say 'Yo'?"
Well, at the end, for those of you who styed with me this long, I would
like to apologize.
_Normally_ I do not quote whole series of post-answer-answer_to_answer,
but this one time I thought it necessary since I fully agree to Cugel and
disagree to Terry, and just _had_ to add some own statements, and thought
it rediculus to fetch just the lines I would comment to.
So I quoted the whole text, just deleted (most of) Cugel's signature.
Again, my apologies for this, it will not happen again (in the (very) near
future (I hope :-)).
Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
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| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
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