From:	mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject:	Re: My take on Munchkinism
Date:	Wed, 15 May 1996 11:36:23 -0500

>
>
>On Wed, 15 May 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:
>
>> > ANY ACT THAT UNBALANCES THE GAME IS ANY MANNER IS BY DEFINITION
>> >MUNCHKINOUS, REGARDLESS WHO MADE IT.
>> >
>> >-Jonas Gabrielson, worthless as a rules-lawyer
>>
>> So basically, anything that gives one person any kind of an advantage over
>> another is munchkin? Thats stupid. No game is perfectly balanced. No game
>> will be. Power gaming can make games less fun for the other players. If
>> the character is played correctly, however, it won't. I agree more with
>> Topcat, that munchkinism goes out side of the rules.
>
> If you had read on (you know, the little print beneath the large
>flaming letters... :-)
I did read it.

> BTW, thanks for the "you're stupid" comment. I needed that. I
>think it in a very nice way added flavour to your post. I could insult you
>back, but I know you won't read this far, so what's the use? :-)
Oh, an attempt at a back handed slap! So why did you keep writing?
Everyone elses education?

No, I didn't say _you_ were stupid, I said the _idea_ was stupid. If I was
going to say "you're stupid" like you misread me saying (and you say I don't
read the posts? Thats rather hypocritical) I would've very clearly said
"Hey, and I not only think your idea is dumb, I think you are too." But I
didn't, and I'm not going to. But back on topic.

I think it's idiotic to believe that unless everything is equal, then it's
munchkinous. If a player role plays better in my campaign, he's going to
get more karma to use on his character than the player that doesn't do as
well. Their character is going to get more powerful. I'm not favoring
their character, I'm being fair, yet, that's munchkinous? I think that's
stupid, so I said as much. Don't expect me to lie to make you feel better.

>> How about this, (allow me to make a sweeping generality) overall, most
>> mages are not as good, starting out, in combat as a street sam. Not
>> that they can't be, but a more well rounded one won't be. Well, there's
>> a lot of combat in SR, so isn't that unfair torwards the mage? Oh,
>> maybe they can make up for it with other things, but it's not the
>> combat, and thats unfair. Thats munchkin?
>
> Nope, because it's not the whole picture. Taking everything into
>account, most characters are balanced, more or less. We've been through
>this - all character types has some kind of an edge over the others. But
>if you min/max the sam, then it's munchkinous, because all of a sudden
>he's invincible in combat, and it upsets the balance.
But you just said everyone has their weaknesses. If the starting street sam
can take out four cards in one combat turn, a squad of five can drop him
just as easily, especially after his pool is gone. :)

So, it's munchkinous to use the standard rules to your advantage? That's
what I don't get. If you use the rules, make a good character, who, while
they may be powerful in some aspects, has a good background, fits with the
group, and is fun to play, that is somehow munchkinous. I don't believe
that's right or fair to any player.

>> Cause that's what your saying.
>
> No, again.
Then I misunderstand what you're trying to say. Or maybe I don't, and we're
just going to have views at two ends of the spectrum

>> Do you also shoot down any idea with potential because you think it's
>> "unbalancing"?
>
> What do you mean, "idea"? Is that, like, allowing a Tank Troll
>into the campaign? Then the answer is no, if the player hasn't got a
>*very* good excuse and plenty of words to back it up.
Exactly. That and the GBD are stats on a page that could have very good
historys/backgrounds/etc to go with them and make very good characters.
Yes, they are tough, but as it's been demonstrated, everyone has a weakness.

>Why would a balanced group be more boring? It just means no-one can blast
the >others to bits over an argument. I'm not sure I can see your POV, mister.
A balanced group isn't boring. Fun isn't based off just how balanced a
group is. Why would an unbalanced group be boring? Because in some
situations one person has an advantage over the other. So you have the
Troll Tank and the GBD on your team. Maybe your other members are a sorcery
adept who used to huny paranormal animals for bountys, an on the run Samurai
phys-ad, and a detective. You go into combat, the Troll Tank and GBD womb
some ass, the Samurai helps out some with a magical being (cause
hand-to-hand works better) and so does the sorcery adept. The detective
hugs mother earth and hopes not to get shot with all the lead flying around.
So later the players want to find out who they went up against. The
detective starts hitting the streets, checking his people, etc. The adepts
each check with some friends of theirs they made in their respective
communitys, and the GBD and Tank Troll...sit around cause they aren't
exactly the greatest talkers in the world. Oh, their ok, but their so
cybered out and psycho people get edgy and nervous around them and don't
usually hang around long enough to give out the good dirt. Sounds to me
like, if its done correctly, everyone can do all their stuff and still have
fun. Now, if that troll tank also was handed massive karma awards by the
gm, or the gm gave him some super power, something normally outside the
rules, then yes, I can see that being a definate problem. But just because
things aren't "balanced" doesn't mean that no one has any fun and that
everyone gets boring. Combat is a big part of SR, as I said, but it's also
the most boring to play. "I shoot him, he shoots back, blah, blah, blah"

I'll just restate my entire point, in case you just skipped to the bottom.
You take the meaning of "munchkin" to an extreme. To you, it's anything
that makes a character more powerful than another, no matter what the
reason. Whether it's extra karma, using the rules to their advantage, or
whatever. I personally only think it's "munckinous" if it goes outside the
rules of the game. Now, if I was in a group and I played the GBD and the
group asked me not to play him anymore, because I'm ruining the entire game
for everyone else (and I don't know how being a combat god can do that,
unless everyone else is trying to be a combat god and aren't.) then I would
change. What's fun and what's not depends on your group. Hey, some people
like to take the rules, break them in half, and play some weird game that
resembles shadowrun. Again, it all depends on if you and the group are
having fun. If you are, then it's good. If you're not, then it's bad. But
just because my character is tougher in combat than someone elses doesn't
mean he's a munchkin. I think that term gets slung around to easily by
people who don't care for the power level of somebody elses whatever.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"An object at rest cannot be stopped! YEAH, BABY! YEAH!" - The Evil Midnight
Bomber What Bombs at Midnight.