From:	"Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject:	Re[4]: The Physical/Astral Affecting Debate
Date:	Tue, 10 Sep 96 17:15:21 EST

=> is my reply. [ferri]

>%Okay, look: There's a one-ton mass over there. Now, by applying force
>%to it, I shold be able to move it, right? So I wander over, and try to
>%lift it. In a microgee environment, I would be able to move it (though
>%I, being far less massy, would be move further and faster). However,
>%it's not in orbit. It's in my living room. I can't move it because the
>%force my arms exert on the weight is so much lower than the force
>%gravity exerts on it as to be laughable.
>
>ok, let me explain something. your MASS has N O T H I N G to do with the
>amount of force you can exert, only with the amount of force your body
>exerts in a collision. More so if you stand on the ground [yes you can
>do that while astral]

My example was to show how just because you can apply force, it doesn't
mean something is going to happen. I only mentioned my mass, because the
force I exert on the one-tonne mass is exerted back on me, and so, in
microgee, I'd move further and faster.

=> The comment was not really meant for you, but I forgot the name of the
=> person it refers to.


>%Similarly: a trapped mage can try to lift the net's aura. But the force
>%generated by the interactions of auras is so much weaker than the force
>%generated by gravity acting on the net as to be ignored. And while you
>%could try to strangle someone via their aura, it won't work because you
>%can't exert anywhere near enough force to close their windpipe.
>%Clearer?
>
>nonononononono!. if that were true the net would PASS THROUGH the mage,
>just as a steel mesh weighed down by a 10 ton weight would pass through
>you [ripping you to shreds in the process]. Though the limited
>interaction "model" would indeed disallow strangling.

Umm... that's what I said.

=> sorry, 10 000 postings tend to give you a headache.

>picture this with an example: mage stands on ground, net falls on him.
>if the net is ever to stop falling instead of going through the mage
>then the interaction MUST be of sufficient force to keep the net from
>falling.

Why? The net will stop falling when it hits the ground. Force is ALWAYS
exerted two ways. The same force that is trying the move aside the
bacteria (and can't, cause of the net) is squashing the mage down to the
point where the astral body will fit underneath the net. And yeah, I'd
say it hurts. As Magister says, it's an experience he wouldn't wish on
anyone.

=> well, you are implying that force is not necessarily exerted two ways
=> between the physical and the astral, I thought that was the whole
=>point of your theory.

> So why can't the mage lift the net? the interaction is surely
>enough.

Okay, I place, say, two hundred kilos of stuff on you. Not enough to
squash you, but enough to hold you down. You're stopping it from falling,
aren't you? Why can't you lift it? SURELY, the interaction is great
enough.

=>your argument is invalid, or else I misunderstood your premise, the
=>issue here is that there is a net that could be lifted by the mage,
=>either with force or with magic, the question was whether he'd be able
=>to or whether it'd "slip" or pass through him or whatever.I couldn't
=>ever lift 200 kg , but a better example might be done with 10kg of
=>water,or of air. I COULD lift it if I only could grasp it!

> What you might mean is that an astral being while "solid"in a
>certain manner, cannot exert much force. This , while having nothing at
>all to do with mass, is a more sustainable hypothesis.... well until you
>consider spirit combat with an astral mage that starts pummeling
>[astrally] the spirit, that is....either the astral cohesion of a body
>is rather slim [in which case the fab net will probably kill the mage

Sounds good. What's your point?

=> Just thinking aloud, trying to understand the full implications of these
=> "theories". Kind of fun though, imaginary physics :)

>or astral beings can exert a reasonable amount of force [enough to
>pummel]... the more I think about it, the more I think a mage should be
>able to lift a fat-bac thingie or for that matter a normal living thing
>[a cat, ...]. Well never mind, the more I think about it the more
>problems I find with the whole idea. I better stop now before I convince
>myself of abolishing the whole astral in my games :(

The problem is that, in the real world, something like this doesn't
happen because the item either shatters, or the force resisting increases
eventually to compensate. As an example, try to hold two similarly
aligned magnets close. It's easy for a while, but the closer you get, the
harder it gets. If you COULD force them to touch, you'd be applying
sufficent force to smash the nuclei apart (or to hold it together... :)
). I've never said anywhere that this factor of distance is necessarily a
component of my astral aura interaction concepts.

=> The best theory is the simplest one that explains most of the
=> phenomena without being inconsistent. I'm just looking for simpler
=> alternatives other than "it's magic" [which btw is still a fine
=> explanation]

Ferri