| From: | Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO> |
|---|---|
| Subject: | Re: Runner's Attitudes |
| Date: | Thu, 3 Jul 1997 02:51:31 +0000 |
conclusion, or a short version of the post, at the top.
Disclaimer: Of course it is possible to do runs without breaking any
laws anywhere. But a runner doing *only* such jobs is usually not
called a shadowrunner; he might be a SR CHARACTER but that is
something entirely different.
Finishing comment: (Short version)
Your assertion is that shadowrunners = legal, since shadowrunner =
black ops, and black ops = legal. While logically correct, it is
wrong. Shadowrunners do not work under the domestic protection of
'protecting national interests', so they are not = black ops.
Secondly, in the county in which the operation is done, the operation
is by nature illegal. The area of doubt, if any, is wether it is
legal in the originating country. If whoever hired the team can take
public responsibility for sending it, it is then legal (or will not
carry significant repercussions) , but if that is the case, they send
their own forces, not shadowrunners. The runners' prime advantage is
their deniability, but this advantage usually makes all runs they do
illegal.
(My assertion: shadowrunner=illegal by proof of contradiction.
If shadowrunner=legal then it follows that shadowrunner=official.
(No need to be deniable.). But Shadowrunner=/= official, so
shadowrunner=/=legal. ).
Ashlocke wrote:
> On 28 Jun 97 at 3:43, Rune Fostervoll wrote:
>
> > > That was more my point: crimes committed on corporate turf do not
> > > automatically make you top of the Lone Star Most Wanted.
> >
> > Of course. But you are still effectively a criminal. And if the corp
> > wants you bad, it means that if Lone Star catches you, they can exchange
> > you for someone they want from the corporation badly.
>
> Except the since you didn't break any law (so far as LS is aware) in an
> area where LS has a contract, then LS has *no* reason to arrest you. Corp
> property is extraterritorial, LS has no jurisdiction and frankly doesn't
> give a frag what you do there. Remember LS officers are not police
> officers they are corporate security personnel contracted by a city or
> government to enforce the laws within a specified area. LS will happily
> watch the fireworks outside their jurisdiction and never lift one finger
> to intervene because they aren't being *paid* to do so.
First of all, Lone Star is contracted to BE POLICE. That is their
job. Policing. Now that means they get paid for doing police work, so
they are paid to arrest criminals or wanted people in their
jurisdiction. If someone does something in a corporate area and
leaves, they become wanted when a corporation requests them
extradited. As long as requested extradited, they can also be hunted
by bounty hunters legally. But they would still have to go through a
rather complex extradition trial. (Which is greased considerably by a
prisoner exchange.).
It states in Corporate Shadowfiles that corporations has
extradition treatments with LS and each other. Wether they honor them
is uncertain. If Ares asks LS to extradite Mr. Jonathan Smith for
bombing Ares Central Stadion and 10000 people, LS will do so as
quickly as possible. Why? They cannot let something like that slide,
and it's a good PR boost if they catch the bastard. Now if it's Joe
Schmoe, LS doesn't have that incentive, but if Ares wants him bad
enough, they offer someone LS has wanted extradited from Ares in
return - and then it's in LS's interest.
> > (I assume you are not going to argue that being a lawbreaker
> > 'somewhere else' doesn't mean that you aren't a lawbreaker, only
> > that you are somewhat safer from persecution.).
>
> I will argue it.
Excellent!
> Most shadowrunners work for either Corporations or
> Governments, hired to pull black ops in *another* corps territory.
> This situation is akin to rl special forces performing similar acts in foriegn
> countries. They are breaking the laws of those countries, often violently so,
> does that mean they are criminals? Of course not, they're soldiers carrying
> out the wishes of their governments.
Interesting. Do you consider an Iranian terrorist a criminal? I
assume you do not, since you do not view terrorist or hostile actions
undertaken by persons in the employment of governments criminals.
The problem is that your choice of black op organizations
'(such as US Rangers or British SAS or Israeli Mussad)' is 'good'.
The SAS, for instance, is an anti-terrorist force; they are not the
only kind. Terrorist groups, assassins, saboteurs all is similar,
only less palatable, and their actions and MO is more in line with
those of shadowrunners. In any case I assume you by 'black op' means
operations which is legally carried out by the government
instigating it.
>*snip* shadowrunners = black ops team/spies.
> Is this criminal activity, or just the Corp equivalent of a "cold war"?
As for black ops, remember that all black ops are sent anonymously.
They are intended as DENIABLE ASSETS - a word associated with
shadowrunners... and for the same reason. Governments cannot take
official responsibility for sending a black ops team into another
nation, simply because it is illegal to do so - domestically
and internationally - unless this action can in some way be directly
protecting the nation's interests. (Rescuing hostages, for
instance.).
A detail about how legality works internationally.. when an American
black operation kidnapped Manuel Noriega, he was taken to USA for a
trial there. Calling it a legal nightmare is an understatement, but
on the whole it was not that big a problem, since they managed to
prove the operation was directly protecting the nation's interests.
The cold war actions are domestically protected by the constitution
and 'due to national security'. Corporations has no such clause. It
wouldn't look good in a Corporate Charter, since they are not a
nation and not under military threat, and has no agencies to handle
this.
If corporations did get to the level of government symbiosis they
would have 'national security' clauses then they would no longer be
corporations, but communist governments.
(Whaaaaa? Figure it out. :)
The Shiawase judgement giving corporations the right to protect
themselves and their personell is not enough for a 'national
security' clause to allow them to assassinate, steal or kidnap
something from another corporation.
> I'm not talking about "shadowrunners" who commit random acts of violence,
> who gleefully and *deliberately* gun down innocent bystanders, who steal
> whenever it suits them, who live by no code of ethics or standards at all.
> What I'm dealing with are professionals who are hired to do specific jobs
> under specific circumstances and the rest of the time live pretty normal
> lives.
I do not see the distinction. Wether you put a bullet in a man
because you're paid to, or because you just felt like it, doesn't
matter in the eyes of Lady Justice.
Finishing comment: (Short version)
Your assertion is that shadowrunners = legal, since shadowrunner =
black ops, and black ops = legal. While logically correct, it is
wrong. Shadowrunners do not work under the domestic protection of
'protecting national interests', so they are not = black ops.
Secondly, in the county in which the operation is done, the operation
is by nature illegal. The area of doubt, if any, is wether it is
legal in the originating country. If whoever hired the team can take
public responsibility for sending it, it is then legal (or will not
carry significant repercussions) , but if that is the case, they send
their own forces, not shadowrunners. The runners' prime advantage is
their deniability, but this advantage usually makes all runs they do
illegal.
(My assertion: shadowrunner=illegal by proof of contradiction.
If shadowrunner=legal then it follows that shadowrunner=official.
(No need to be deniable.). But Shadowrunner=/= official, so
shadowrunner=/=legal. ).
Disclaimer: Of course it is possible to do runs without breaking any
laws anywhere. But a runner doing *only* such jobs is not called a
shadowrunner; he might be a SR CHARACTER but that is something
entirely different.
--
Fade
"It's better to burn out, than to fade away!"
