| From: | Unknown sender |
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 18:29:18 +0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
In-Reply-To: <199707032201.SAA04289@******.san.uc.edu>
On 3 Jul 97 at 18:01, NightLife wrote:
> Because a gm has to deal with whiners who can't grasp his/her
> reasons behind why he/she belives in the lethality rules.
GM's have to deal with whiner's no matter what, unless you are lucky.
Again, that is no reason to change the rules.
--
==DREKHEAD=======================================================
drekhead@***.net --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html ---
=================================================================
=================================================================
Don't look back, they might be gaining on you.
=================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 18:29:17 +0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707032159.RAA13591@********.mcit.com>
On 3 Jul 97 at 14:32, Caric wrote:
> They are for the incredibly powerful spells. A force 6 firball is
> resisted with 6's by the target and the caster has 6's as well, and
> they both are resisting deadly. Under the full force rule, the mage
> needs 9's and needs more successes than his target does (assuming
> the caster doesn't get 8 successes) and is taking more damage than
> the target. It's just not cost effect to cast spells this way.
It makes no sense at all. I can't understand how someone would
endorse this method.
--
==DREKHEAD=======================================================
drekhead@***.net --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html ---
=================================================================
=================================================================
Help Wanted: Telepath. You know where to apply.
=================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:21:39 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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| >yes, but how many times have you seen a sammie fire on full auto five or
| >six times without breaking a sweat...and with lower target numbers?
|
| A samme isn't wielding the eldtrich(sp?) force of the cosmos like they
were
| juggling a few spheres. They need a gun! They need their cyber, they need
| all of their gear in order to cut it. Take it all away and you have a
normal
| kighly skilled warrior. Take away a mages gear, gun, and whatever cyber
he
| might have and he's still a mage capable of slinging spells like there
was
| no tomorrow. Each has his speciality every mage doesn't need to be a
combat
| junkie.
throw a mage mask on a mage and he's useless to. If you take all the cyber
and gear away from a sammie you don't have a sammie, if you take all the
magic away from a mage you don't have a mage. Mages need magic in the same
way sammies need cyber. Both can be neutralized. I've seen sammies that
could rip your freakin' head off with their bare hands. The point is that
they both have strenghts and weaknesses...that's why they are balanced.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:35:27 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 03 Jul 1997 15:24:29 -0400"
<199707031924.PAA16710@******.san.uc.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
You wrote:
> It's excuse my french to damn easy for a mage to toss force 6 and 8
> fireballs with out taking much drain or drain at all. They're already to
> powerful this just stands to balance things out. They toss a force 6
> fireball and the reciever has to roll 6's to resist but the nage only has
> threes to worry about. I've seen to many games where a even battle was won
> only buy the efforts of the mage while the others are getting slaughtered.
> If they wanna toss a force 6 fireball let them face the full brunt of the
> power required to shoot it off.
How in Gaia's name are they getting T#'s of _3_ for a force 6 Fireball, pray
tell? Enquiring minds want to know. "Like me!"
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:39:20 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 02:46 PM 7/3/97 -0400, Johnathan wrote:
>On Wednesday, July 02, 1997 11:30, woneal@*******.NET wrote:
>> On 1 Jul 97 at 23:24, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>>> The mere fact that a target is a megacorporation doesn't change the
>>> financial cost of a given run against it, and your fixation that every
>>> run against any megacorp involves a cost of billions is the crux of the
>>> problem here. If the cost is small, the benefit of pursuit is similarly
>>> small.
>>That's half the crux. I get the distinct impression that Bob thinks all
>>runners are pond scum, low-lives, street trash and rank amatuers. He
>>seems to think that there are no professionals in the shadow business,
>>that they are all lying, thieving criminals. That a very limit view of a
>>very diverse group. Obviously *some* runners fit into that category, but
>>there are plenty who don't.
I've no thoughts along the lines that runners are all "pond scum, low-lives,
street trash and rank amatuers". There are professional runners. However,
all runners *are* lying criminals (many thieves) from the lowliest ganger to
the uber-runner living in a penthouse apartment. They're of no use if they
aren't criminal in some way or another (preferably many) and if they don't
lie they could find themselves in deep trouble really fast in the shadows.
To corporations runners are tools: no more, no less. Even if said tool
wears black and a mask and makes a lot of stealth successes and plans things
out, if he walks into a place that has every square inch under a security
camera, he'll be seen. That's just cameras, include all the other security
goodies and even a "professional" runner with the right attitude and a plan
is noticed and security on his tail from the beginning to the end.
Johnathan later posted this...
>Just to make a point about how you get 'professional' runners as
>opposed to gutterpunks, I'm going to give an exemple of how a PC
>could be such a thing, drawn from my PCs
>Team leader: Ex-military, left because his team got the knobby
>purple shaft and were set up to die. Wanted for being AWOL and
>stealing Govt Property (a tactical computer.) Mercing would
>involve too much exposure. Hence, he disappears into the shadows.
So that's a character history. Let me guess, the guy plans things, wears
black, makes a lot of stealth successes and would still be seen if he walked
by a camera? Professional in attitude won't keep you from being seen.
Wearing day-glo wetlook leathers and running around screaming like an idiot
just makes it easier (I wouldn't consider such a person a shadowrunner, I'd
consider them dead). Wearing black still doesn't prevent you from being
noticed. So once again, your point would be?
>Exactly. Read the first section of Fields of Fire. TopCat apparently
>believes that *all* runners fit into the mold that Matador puts them in.
>Even Hatchetman (who is apparently a runner, and should know better, agrees
>with him.)
Far from, but you've deluded yourself to the point where you truly believe
that I do and I don't think you're likely to come back from said delusion.
>But not all runners are like that. My players aren't. They do not wander
>over the wire and aimlessly search the compound. They have a plan. They use
>their brains. Most importantly, they use stealth, magic, and technology to
>defeat security systems. (Motto: Any system can be beaten. Some are just
>harder than others. Remember, security *cannot* be impenetrable. Otherwise,
>whatever it guards *cannot* be accessible.)
Stealth, magic, and tech and a plan can only get you so far when the degree
of stealth, magic, and tech that the megacorps have is so far beyond your
runners abilities as to make them laughable. Can any system be beaten?
Perhaps one part of it, but single-layer security is foolish. You combine
cameras with pressure sensors, motion sensors, physical security, magical
security, matrix security, building layout, fences, walls, locks, doors,
drones, and whatever else to create a security web which no-one can get
through without being detected. So what if a scientist is detected, there's
no reason to shoot him. But if nobody is supposed to be in Room 412 after
7pm and someone's there, then security takes effect. Most security
techniques now essentially become inpenetrable when layered. In 205X
there's so much more to play with...
A good plan and a professional attitude is going to get you by that?
>Now, I will admit that I don't run sessions where they have to penetrate a
>corporate high-security facility very often. It isn't the kind of mission
>the PC's enjoy, and they don't have the personnel to be effective. (No
>full-time decker, for example.) But they can and have done it.
Then you invoked divine intervention of the unrealistic sort in order to get
them through it. Of course, I don't believe in divine intervention...
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:39:26 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 03 Jul 1997 15:35:45 -0400"
<199707031942.PAA02551@****.provide.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> I disagree. Correction, I STRONGLY disagree. ;) Magic has it's
> advantages. Especially when it comes to versatility. However, I would
> only support Drain being as hard to eat as the damage caused by the spell
> when Street Sams have to start eating an amount of fatigue equal to the
> damage of the bullets they are firing. I played 1st Ed. mages, and let me
> tell you, it sucked. It sucked hard. It seems completely worthless to
> spend years of your life learning the ways of magic, just to go unconscious
> every time you actually succeed in casting a spell strong enough to make a
> dent in the opposition.
A big part of that problem with 1st Ed was the base damage of light for all
spells, but I still agree with you on this. If mages have to work really hard
to do any damage in combat, why play one? We all know that SR centers on
combat, and that there are mages that specialize in it, there's no reason to
handicap them.
> And as far as the topic of Street Sams being more suited to battle, because
> that's all they do, my response would be to say: so what about combat
> mages?
Exactly.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:40:29 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
>Stim patches possibly causing magic loss has always been a rule AFAIK.
Not much of one until awakenings.
>Knocked out means also that if your team loses you're just as dead, and
>couldn't help them past the first spell.
You're automatically assuming that the mage will fall over out cold from one
spell. More than likely even under force rules he will get off 2 or 3 in
thwe worst case scenario. Meanwhile the sammie already been shreaded because
he doesn't have a bullet barrier.
>Dead means Doc wagon shows up and
>that platinum contract gets deducted for one of your five free
>resusitations.
No dead means dead. Doc Wagon only arrives if you've paid for them to show
up. it's a piece of gear take it away and guess what you've got.
> It all depends on how the fight goes and what your enemy is
>like, so as far as I see it 10 boxes of damage screws you either way.
If you've lost the battle you're hosed anyways. If you win you've won and
the unconscious get back up those unlucky enough to have died stay dead. No
resurections, no cloing, etc...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:44:16 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
>My point is no other character type faces danger doing what they do
>as you insist a mage should.
Wrong! A decker can get hosed by black IC, a sammy/merc can get slaughtered
in a gun battle, the rigger can get shot down just as easily. Any archetype
faces certain dangers inherent in their job. There's no reason why the mage
shouldn't have some danger to his profession as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:23:50 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
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| >yes, but how many times have you seen a sammie fire on full auto five or
| >six times without breaking a sweat...and with lower target numbers?
|
| And secondly that's all their good at. they can read aura, summon and
| control spirits/elementals, heal a wounded body instantly, talk to the
| enities beyond the realm of man, invent cybermancy, kill without a
weapon,
| strike a world away, do you want me to go on?
That solely depends on what skills you give them...i've never once seen a
kick ass mage decker, but I sure have seen sammie do it.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:25:05 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
| >They are for the incredibly powerful spells. A force 6 firball is
resisted
| >with 6's by the target and the caster has 6's as well, and they both are
| >resisting deadly. Under the full force rule, the mage needs 9's and
needs
| >more successes than his target does (assuming the caster doesn't get 8
| >successes) and is taking more damage than the target. It's just not
cost
| >effect to cast spells this way.
|
| Ones maybe knocked out cold the other is most likely dead! Who won that
| little fight. Also assume that the mage will get more successes that the
| target he usually has a lot more dice.
No he won't because his target numbers are higher, and he has to save it
all for drain if he wants to make it. Also the mage NEEDS more successes.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:46:14 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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>GM's have to deal with whiner's no matter what, unless you are lucky.
>Again, that is no reason to change the rules.
You play more than you gm don't you? Aside from physical violence it's not
that easy to shut someone up when they've think they've got something in
black and white and it's official.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:48:23 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 06:57 AM 7/1/97 -0600, David wrote:
>TopCat wrote:
>| At 09:19 PM 6/30/97 -0600, David wrote:
>| >Bob, how do you do it? After reading your last post I realized that my
>| >post on the subject, in which I thought I was argueing with you, was in
>| >agreement with you. And I think you did the same thing to Paul.
>| Hmm, I doubt Paul agrees with me or that he ever will or that he'd admit
>| that he did if he did. Regardless, I think it's just the fact that people
>| like to argue with me. Not that I do anything to detract from that, mind
>| you, but I'm pretty sure that's it. Even I admit that my style can be...
>| abrasive.
>I think you were both argueing two points of view that never
>conflicted with eachother.
Yes and no...
>IMO, You believe that if runners take on the first, or even second,
>tier of a Megacorp, that if they don't get wacked in the attempt that
>the Megacorp will seek retribution.
I also believe that in the attempting they most likely won't survive.
Should they make it, they'll be in trouble shortly thereafter.
>IMO, Paul believes that the lower tiers of a Megacorp have defense
>that can be bypassed (though it will take a little work) and that
>said Corp won't seek retribution unless they have a good reason (the
>runners geeked the CEO's daughter during the run (don't you hate
>stray rounds?)).
Paul also believes that the higher tiers as well can be penetrated without
problem whereas I do not. Herein lies the gist of the argument.
>Hey, just before you left last time we were just getting into the art
>of writing a good mystery and placing clues. Have you learned
>anything new since then?
Ummm... I'm not sure, LOL.
I've been playing more Shadowrun (and a lot of WoD stuff) than I've been
running over the past year (though that appears to be changing). I'm still
in the middle of a one-on-one amnesiac campaign that has been extremely
interesting. Last time I was running it was a detective level campaign, but
since I started running again I don't know if I'm too keen on releasing my
trade secrets to my new players...
If I get some time after this "Runners Attitudes" thread is over, I may get
that thread going again... :)
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:45:41 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 03 Jul 1997 15:30:38 -0400"
<199707031930.PAA17476@******.san.uc.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
You wrote:
> but the thing is that that they don't even think twice about sending off a
> force 6 or better spell because they won't risk falling over. There's been
> two many time i've seen a mage toss five and six spells at force 6 or better
> and not even break a sweat.
A) This depends on which spells you are talking about. If you're talking
manabolt or manaball, where's the problem with that?
B) I've seen a group of basically sammies gun down a group of gangers at close
range, with only firearms (no grenades, etc) at four-to-one odds, without
breaking a sweat, in a round and a half. Same thing.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:39:48 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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| You're automatically assuming that the mage will fall over out cold from
one
| spell. More than likely even under force rules he will get off 2 or 3 in
| thwe worst case scenario. Meanwhile the sammie already been shreaded
because
| he doesn't have a bullet barrier.
And you are assuming these force 2 or 3 spells are gonna actually hit
anything...any decent sammie is going to shrug these off like so many
flies.
|
| >Dead means Doc wagon shows up and
| >that platinum contract gets deducted for one of your five free
| >resusitations.
|
| No dead means dead. Doc Wagon only arrives if you've paid for them to
show
| up. it's a piece of gear take it away and guess what you've got.
A buddy with a medkit.
| > It all depends on how the fight goes and what your enemy is
| >like, so as far as I see it 10 boxes of damage screws you either way.
|
| If you've lost the battle you're hosed anyways. If you win you've won and
| the unconscious get back up those unlucky enough to have died stay dead.
No
| resurections, no cloing, etc...
The guys who don't go unconscious have a chance to help those that have, or
those that have died, or run away screaming...that's the point. Once you
go down for any reason you are useless for the rest of the encounter.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:49:32 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: SR 3rd Ed. CD-Rom
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970703141354.0092baf0@******.ba.best.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 14:13 7/3/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>One day I advocate Acrobat format, the next, I shall slam it. Don't
>>release the rulebooks in a format such as Acrobat, PDF, DOC, TXT, Anything
>>like that!
>>Write a custom reader, with a custom filetype. BLOAT the size of the
>>reader. And the filesize, for that matter. Otherwise, its just too damned
>>easy to pirate.
>
>1. FASA is a gaming company, not a software company. Writing a custom
reader
> is *waaay* far away from their line of work, and would require an
>amount of
> investment that would make a CD-ROM project completely unprofitable.
You think they might be able to throw it down the hall to FASA Interactive?
Gee...
>2. Bloating the reader and filesize will just mean you need to ship it on
> more CD-ROMs and that it will take longer to ship around the Net once
> someone cracks it. Meanwhile, it's inconvenient for the real customers
>who
> have to swap CD-ROMs.
Not past the point of 1 CD-Rom, that truly would be pathetic. Do we really
care about people shipping it around the net once it is cracked? I would
just as soon it be larger and harder to pirate, to discourage people from
doing it.
Why do you think companies put FMV on games? Its not to make money, its to
discourage piracy.
>Laser printing costs a fair amount of money; so does Xeroxing. If you use
>the PDF documents to create paper output, it'll probably run you about as
>much money as it costs to buy the sourcebook by the time you have a stable
>binding attached to the paper.
I'm not sure about most places, but all the schools here, including the
university, let you print as much as you like on paper as long as you
provide the paper. Binding? Three ring hole punch it and throw it into a
binder. Alot of the time I find my net.books are easier to navigate than
proper books.
>CD-ROM publishing will probably have very
>little effect on book sales. Preventing CD-ROM piracy is more problematic,
>as most of the really good schemes for prevention entail investing in
>infrastructure back at FASA (which would make the project less profitable),
>but how many people are going to want to take up 200MB of their hard drive
>with the documents?
I probably have pretty close to that much in SR stuff already. Anyways,
I'm done with this thread. The chances of FASA doing a CD are so remote it
isn't worth bickering over, since we obviously see things from a different
end of a spectrum.
--
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
"Can I have a cup of angst to go with my un-happy meal?" -- Hi & Lois
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:41:07 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
| >My point is no other character type faces danger doing what they do
| >as you insist a mage should.
|
| Wrong! A decker can get hosed by black IC, a sammy/merc can get
slaughtered
| in a gun battle, the rigger can get shot down just as easily. Any
archetype
| faces certain dangers inherent in their job. There's no reason why the
mage
| shouldn't have some danger to his profession as well.
Everyone faces death by bullet, to sammies face death by recoil?
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:52:14 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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>throw a mage mask on a mage and he's useless to. If you take all the cyber
>and gear away from a sammie you don't have a sammie, if you take all the
>magic away from a mage you don't have a mage. Mages need magic in the same
>way sammies need cyber. Both can be neutralized. I've seen sammies that
>could rip your freakin' head off with their bare hands. The point is that
>they both have strenghts and weaknesses...that's why they are balanced.
Striping each of all their gear is what I was refering to not to striping
away of what you consider natural abilities. Take away each ones gear and
the mage is still a mage unlike the sammie who a just good warrior. You
can't strip a mage of his magic as easily as you can a sammies gun and
cyber. As for the ripping off someones head is that without the cyber. I
kind of doubt it. As for the mage mask he can still cast spells it's just
really difficult.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:53:14 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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>How in Gaia's name are they getting T#'s of _3_ for a force 6 Fireball, pray
>tell? Enquiring minds want to know. "Like me!"
Fireball was a bad example excuse me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:51:43 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 03 Jul 1997 17:06:12 -0400"
<199707032106.RAA28500@******.san.uc.edu>
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You wrote:
> For the possibility to bring down a building with no more equipment that the
> suit you were born in. Thats a pretty hefty advantage espically when
> characters start to intiate I know it's spelled wrong but i wearing new
> glass everything looks like I watching the world from inside a fish bowl.
Then Initiation is a problem, as I've said time and time again.
> As a gm I had way to much difficult in keeping mages under control with the
> vanilla rules. Thank god for the companions gradual intiation. And I try in
> insult you either but considering the past couple of days I've had it may
> sound that way unintentionally. ;-)
Again, initiation is your problem, either disallow it or allow it gradually ala
the Companion. Still no reason to put F in place of F/2 as the basic drain
category.
losthalo
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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:54:48 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 03 Jul 1997 17:09:18 -0400"
<199707032109.RAA28813@******.san.uc.edu>
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You wrote:
> Don't even try it the stun equal nearly being dead. Stun fades espically
> with the vanilla rules using stim patches.
And comes back X minutes later with an extra box...
And I think he was pointing out that in a fight, unconscious is about as good
as dead.
losthalo
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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:55:58 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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>That solely depends on what skills you give them...i've never once seen a
>kick ass mage decker, but I sure have seen sammie do it.
All full blown mages can summon, cast spells, read aura, go astral etc... As
for the mage-decker what's that got to do with this debate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:56:39 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 03 Jul 1997 17:14:39 -0400"
<199707032114.RAA29323@******.san.uc.edu>
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You wrote:
> >What about the sammie that kills three people before the mage even
> >gets an action?
> And he pays a price with his essence and money. The mages job isn't supposed
> to be death on two legs.
Says you. Shark shaman? Death on two legs? You betcha.
losthalo
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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:30:05 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 03 Jul 1997 15:07:26 -0400"
<199707031907.PAA14511@******.san.uc.edu>
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You wrote:
> But with your general biotech you can still do the advanced stuff. I don't
> know it just doesn't jive with me what else can I say.
Okay, I'll try again then: someone with both training in first aid *and*
surgery, etc. has a general Biotech skill. Someone with only skill in first
aid has a general biotech skill with a conentration in first aid. Simple?
Otherwise you get stuck paying for two separate, pretty related skills, and
it's hella more expensive, esp. at char creation. I think biotech as written
in the rules is very comparable to firearms and other pretty broad skills
(negotiation, for instance).
losthalo
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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:02:00 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: [Admin] Runner's Attitudes
In-Reply-To: <199707032037.PAA28786@*******.fgi.net>
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Lets steer this thread back to SR relevance, or end it. Right now its
mainly name calling, finger pointing, etc.
Besides, you all have 3rd edition suggestions to be making :)
-Adam
--
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
"Can I have a cup of angst to go with my un-happy meal?" -- Hi & Lois
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:02:53 -0800
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: SR 3rd Ed. CD-Rom
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At 16:49 7/3/97 -0600, Adam J wrote:
>>1. FASA is a gaming company, not a software company. Writing a custom
reader
>> is *waaay* far away from their line of work, and would require an
amount of
>> investment that would make a CD-ROM project completely unprofitable.
>You think they might be able to throw it down the hall to FASA Interactive?
> Gee...
I'd completely forgotten about FASA Interactive :-) but the reason stands:
a good viewer is still not a trivial thing to write.
>Not past the point of 1 CD-Rom, that truly would be pathetic. Do we really
>care about people shipping it around the net once it is cracked? I would
>just as soon it be larger and harder to pirate, to discourage people from
>doing it.
>Why do you think companies put FMV on games? Its not to make money, its to
>discourage piracy.
They could include very high resolution artwork for a similar effect.
"300dpi made it not fit on one CD-ROM? OK, drop it down to 150dpi..."
>>Laser printing costs a fair amount of money; so does Xeroxing. If you use
>>the PDF documents to create paper output, it'll probably run you about as
>>much money as it costs to buy the sourcebook by the time you have a stable
>>binding attached to the paper.
>I'm not sure about most places, but all the schools here, including the
>university, let you print as much as you like on paper as long as you
>provide the paper. Binding? Three ring hole punch it and throw it into a
>binder. Alot of the time I find my net.books are easier to navigate than
>proper books.
At UCSB, we had to pay for laser printer usage, and when I took a huge
stack of Plastic Warriors stuff over to the copy shop to Xerox from 2 pages->
2 sides of 1 page, it ran me around $80. Unless you've got a very delicate
touch, you'll find the three hole punched paper tends to rip very easily.
I consider binders a great deal more inconvenient than standard FASA
sourcebooks,
and am very glad I picked up SR2 in hardcover when it was out...
>I probably have pretty close to that much in SR stuff already.
Anyways,
>I'm done with this thread. The chances of FASA doing a CD are so remote it
>isn't worth bickering over, since we obviously see things from a different
>end of a spectrum.
*shrug* How will we know if it's remote or not? R. Talsorian is going to
be doing some CD-ROMs, and TSR already did one. We'll have to see.
Meanwhile,
it can't hurt to let them know there's at least *some* market for it.
--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:06:21 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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>And you are assuming these force 2 or 3 spells are gonna actually hit
>anything...any decent sammie is going to shrug these off like so many
>flies.
I'm not talking about force 2 and 3 spells. The sammies gonna fall over from
a force 6 spells anyway. The mage should atleast break a sweat in doing just
that.
>A buddy with a medkit.
With three dice wow I'm impressed. You keep throwing in gear to balnce the
equation. I'm talking buck naked.
>The guys who don't go unconscious have a chance to help those that have, or
>those that have died, or run away screaming...that's the point. Once you
>go down for any reason you are useless for the rest of the encounter.
Let me steer this away from combat for a second or two If you've lost your
just as screwed as those taken prisoner. They have a chance top eascape not
the dead guy. The next arguementhopefully will go beyond combat because your
not gonna change my mind or alter my views.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:58:32 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 03 Jul 1997 23:19:37 +0000"
<199707032123.XAA01842@***.uio.no>
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You wrote:
> I prefer drain at F/2. As a lot of others has allready mentioned,
> that way the mage doesn't hurt himself as much or more than his
> opponent when he casts a spell. A mana bolt is the same as a
> shotgun, more or less, and then it is reasonable that the mage
> shouldn't suffer so much drain.
Agreed.
> On the other hand, mages' are supposed to be versatile rather than
> specialists;
Why? No more than sammies are specialists, some learn demolitions, stealth,
and skills for defeating security, etc. Talking about what mages are
'supposed' to be is a problem, imo.
in addition to their mental shotgun they can also fly,
> make walls, control people, turn into toads, and otherwise do a lot
> of fancy stuff. They shouldn't be as powerful in a direct fight as a
> samurai.. more like a physad. As it is now a mage can, with a little
> adjustments and a few spell locks, become as dangerous as a street
> samurai, and far cheaper. So some adjustments might be in order...
Ah yes, the dreaded spell locks. Either give them reasons to be careful
leaving their locked spells on (opposing mages ansd spirits), they're easy to
break and expensive, or disallow them. This still doesn't make the
_low_spell_drain_ a problem.
> An option would be to have each mage choose one area of spells
> where he takes F/2 drain, and F drain in the rest.. :)
Bleh... don't care for this tack. What about the guy who wants to be good at
both areas his totem gives him advantages for (say, Illusion and Detection or
something)? Again, you're turning mages into a specific type of thing: "I'm a
healer, Bob's the artillery of the group".
> 'pet peeve spells'
> Incr. reaction +1 & +3 is identical once on a spell lock. No reason
> to ever use +1. (Same goes with the other attribute spells).
If you use it on a spell lock. Could always use it on someone else in the
group who needs a reflex boost... I won't repeat the solution to spell locks.
> Fix: Bonding/quickening cost is multiplied by drain level. (1,2,3,4)
> (As if mages didn't have enough karma drains.. tough luck.).
And Quickened spells can be killed in Astral, too, send a spirit to harry the
mage's Quickenings, he gets to decide to face you or the spirit...
> Sleep: Triple whammy: Cheap drain, takes out enemies
> effectively, and you can also interrogate the suckers afterwards.
Perhaps a little broken. Fix the few broken spells. Why change the whole
Drain system to fix a few problems that aren't _in_ the drain section of the
rules?
> Damaging manipulations - not enough bang for the buck.
> (Resisted against lower target numbers and usually more dice.. and
> also a lot more drain, makes these spells underpowered compared to
> their drain.)
> Should it be fixed? No, they shouldn't be as powerful as combat
> spells.
Why not? I'd like to hear the reasoning why they 'shouldn't' be as powerful as
Combat Spells. They're different, they do slightly different things, they have
advantages and disadvantages, and I like that.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:08:04 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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>Everyone faces death by bullet, to sammies face death by recoil?
Not everyone faces death by a bullet. As for the recoil does it kill a mage
any faster?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:10:42 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-version: 1.0
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>Everyone faces death by bullet, to sammies face death by recoil?
Comabt is the sammies only job unlike the mages who get to do two things at
once. Sammies can't go astral last time I checked. A mage doesn't need to be
as good at combat like the sammies if he wants he can go sling spells in a
magic department for pat and fun. No matter where the sammie works death is
what he faces every time he does his job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:09:26 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 03 Jul 1997 14:23:44 -0700"
<199707032134.QAA17366@********.mcit.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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How about this for limiting the effectiveness of magicians: delete Magic Pool.
Force them to resist Drain and incoming spells like everyone else, without a
bonus pool of dice to draw upon. Let Sorcery limit the maximum Force of spells
they can cast along with Magic Attribute. Less discretionary dice to throw
into augmenting the spell or resisting drain, and he's going to be more careful
about what he casts...
losthalo
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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:13:46 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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>Again, initiation is your problem, either disallow it or allow it gradually ala
>the Companion. Still no reason to put F in place of F/2 as the basic drain
>category.
>
>losthalo
Honestly I've got better things to discuss right now because you're not
making a dent in my arguement and I'm not making a dent in yours. Forget it.
My views are mine and your are yours. Later.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:19:20 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
On Thursday, July 03, 1997 18:39, TopCat[SMTP:topcat@***.NET] wrote:
> >Just to make a point about how you get 'professional' runners as
> >opposed to gutterpunks, I'm going to give an exemple of how a PC
> >could be such a thing, drawn from my PCs
> >Team leader: Ex-military, left because his team got the knobby
> >purple shaft and were set up to die. Wanted for being AWOL and
> >stealing Govt Property (a tactical computer.) Mercing would
> >involve too much exposure. Hence, he disappears into the shadows.
>
> So that's a character history. Let me guess, the guy plans things, wears
> black, makes a lot of stealth successes and would still be seen if he
walked
> by a camera? Professional in attitude won't keep you from being seen.
> Wearing day-glo wetlook leathers and running around screaming like an
idiot
> just makes it easier (I wouldn't consider such a person a shadowrunner,
I'd
> consider them dead). Wearing black still doesn't prevent you from being
> noticed. So once again, your point would be?
Nope. He doesn't walk in front of the camera in the first place. Not unless
he *knows* that it has been neutralized. A camera is actually fairly easy
to fool/spoof. Other sensors (motion/heat in particular) are much harder to
beat. So he (and the rest of the team) doesn't. They go after the slag who
is manning the sensor if they absolutely cannot go around it (or otherwise
suppress whatever the sensor is reporting to.
> >Exactly. Read the first section of Fields of Fire. TopCat apparently
> >believes that *all* runners fit into the mold that Matador puts them in.
> >Even Hatchetman (who is apparently a runner, and should know better,
agrees
> >with him.)
>
> Far from, but you've deluded yourself to the point where you truly
believe
> that I do and I don't think you're likely to come back from said
delusion.
I apologize. My take on your comments (and everyone else's re-comments)
made me think this.
> >But not all runners are like that. My players aren't. They do not wander
> >over the wire and aimlessly search the compound. They have a plan. They
use
> >their brains. Most importantly, they use stealth, magic, and technology
to
> >defeat security systems. (Motto: Any system can be beaten. Some are just
> >harder than others. Remember, security *cannot* be impenetrable.
Otherwise,
> >whatever it guards *cannot* be accessible.)
>
> Stealth, magic, and tech and a plan can only get you so far when the
degree
> of stealth, magic, and tech that the megacorps have is so far beyond your
> runners abilities as to make them laughable. Can any system be beaten?
> Perhaps one part of it, but single-layer security is foolish. You
combine
> cameras with pressure sensors, motion sensors, physical security, magical
> security, matrix security, building layout, fences, walls, locks, doors,
> drones, and whatever else to create a security web which no-one can get
> through without being detected. So what if a scientist is detected,
there's
> no reason to shoot him. But if nobody is supposed to be in Room 412
after
> 7pm and someone's there, then security takes effect. Most security
> techniques now essentially become impenetrable when layered. In 205X
> there's so much more to play with...
So don't be in the room in a black-out period. Have a legitimate reason to
be there. You are apparently thinking that the runners are going to beat
their head against the brick wall of security. Why should they? I tell you
three time: The human element is the most vulnerable element of a security
system, and any security system MUST have it. If security is hair-trigger
enough that any spoofing attempt will be detected, tickle it. Degrade the
responses of who/whatever is responding to the security alert. (Calling up
the ready-alert squad three nights running for a false alarm is going to
tick them off.)
I said it before, I'll say it again: No security is impenetrable. It is too
bloody expensive, too bloody difficult, and too bloody annoying to the
people who have to work around it.
> A good plan and a professional attitude is going to get you by that?
Yep. And if a plan cannot be found in a reasonable time, I've had the team
return their front money to the employer.
> >Now, I will admit that I don't run sessions where they have to penetrate
a
> >corporate high-security facility very often. It isn't the kind of
mission
> >the PC's enjoy, and they don't have the personnel to be effective. (No
> >full-time decker, for example.) But they can and have done it.
>
> Then you invoked divine intervention of the unrealistic sort in order to
get
> them through it. Of course, I don't believe in divine intervention...
I resent that. I guess you would consider a voluntary extractee giving them
inside aid "divine intervention," then. Or intra-corporation politics
preventing effective response to a threat? As someone else pointed out, a
corporation is not a group mind (certain parts of Aztechnology
probationarily excluded...) and does not always act as such. Classic
examples of this in the SR world would be a run where one part of Fuchi
(Nakatomi) commissions a run against another (Villiers) - a situation where
the security officers' loyalties will most certainly be strained.
Now all the ideas in this post are just me bouncing ideas off my keyboard.
Some may work, some may not.
> --
> Bob Ooton
> topcat@***.net
--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers.
-Leonard Brandwein
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 01:12:34 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <runefo@***.uio.no>
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Organization: The University of Oslo
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707032134.QAA17366@********.mcit.com>
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> | So to me, an average spell force level (4) against a significantly more
> | difficult-than-average target (a sammie) is /supposed/ to be difficult.
>
> Try in the realm of impossible...lets assume a Sammie with a body of 6 (low
> for a Sammie if you ask me) and the mageboy is casting Powerbolt (fairly
> common spell) if that spell is force four the mage is doing more damage (I
> know one is stun the other physical, but the mods are the same) to himself
> than he is to the Sammie and he will probably never succeed in doind any
> damage unless he lets himself get nailed with the drain. Say the mage has
> a sorcery skill of 6 and even a willpower of 6, he rolls 7 dice at a TN of
> 6 (we'll say he split his magic pool) to hit the Sammie. The Sammie then
> rolls 6 dice at a TN 4, needing only one more success than the mage to take
> absolutely no damage. The mage then rolls 9 dice at a target number of
> five (assuming that drain is full force), and he needs six of those to be
> success to avoid any damage. Now if there two Sammies the mage is just
> flat out screwed.
Let's take another example then.. F/2 exclusive manaball at force 6.
The mage takes 2S drain; not hard to avoid. Add two dice and it's
no drain at average with some margin of safety. (assuming he has 6
willpower.). This leaves 10 dice for the success test.
If the samurai has willpower 6, he has a slim chance. (Severely
wounded on average, can resist, but can also get deadly all too
easily.). At will 5 he's dead... and so is any number of his
buddies. And 5 willpower is supposed to be pretty ok.
A nice rule of thumb is, use power spells on mages, mana spells on
trolls and samurai. I assume you chose your example with that in
mind.
--
Fade
"It's better to burn out, than to fade away!"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:15:04 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
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That's nice to know.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 01:12:34 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <runefo@***.uio.no>
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Organization: The University of Oslo
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
In-Reply-To: <199707032125.OAA09755@****tod-102.bryant.webtv.net>
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> >Am I the only one whose BBB hasn't fallen >apart...?
> Nope, got two softbacks, and everyone in my group
> has a copy of it (either hardback or not), and only one has fallen apart
> (outta 21 people).
Our Big Blue Book fell apart, so has the two Big Black Books we
bought.. we're on to our third now. I guess it will have to extend
its tour of duty until the Big New Book comes out.
Hm.. which color should it be in? Brown? (so that all three books
have differenct colors but same initials.. :)
--
Fade
"It's better to burn out, than to fade away!"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 01:12:34 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <runefo@***.uio.no>
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Organization: The University of Oslo
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707032135.RAA09903@www.ctghub.com>;
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> > Powerful enough to bring a big bad elemental/spirit around with them with
> > only their birthday suit on.
>
> As if a sammy or merc can't run around in his birthday suit sporting
> his new TacCom and panther cannon on a gyro mount. And he doesn't
> drop close to death everytime he uses it.
'birthday suit' = what he was born with. I pity that sammie's mother.
The difference is also obvious - the mage can walk in anywhere with
his magic; heavy weapons is something quite different. Since subtlety
is very stressed in shadowrun, it is not exactly a sensible, or
valid, example.
--
Fade
"It's better to burn out, than to fade away!"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:00:07 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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>A) This depends on which spells you are talking about. If you're talking
>manabolt or manaball, where's the problem with that?
>B) I've seen a group of basically sammies gun down a group of gangers at close
>range, with only firearms (no grenades, etc) at four-to-one odds, without
>breaking a sweat, in a round and a half. Same thing.
Point A never mind. Point B No it's not. A group of sammies with firearms
are supposed to wreak this kind of damage. Without their guns and cyber
they're close to equal terms with the gangers. The mage however even if hes'
named has a really good chance of taking them all out with a area effect spell.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:16:52 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 03 Jul 1997 17:59:53 -0400"
<199707032159.RAA03994@******.san.uc.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
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You wrote:
> the sammy or merc needs equipme to do the job. Not the mage it's all natural
> like his birthday suit.
> No but they get in a natural weapon. That only damage and cyber can take away.
> money an be lost, cyber damaged, and karma burnt away but unless a mage
> loses his juju he's always got it with him. Besides a mage can duplicate
> everyhing a sammy or a merc can do with a few force one spells.
Well, mages also when taking a Deadly wound risk losing a point of Magic same
as sammies risk losing a dear piece of Cyber. They also suffer a +2 on
attempts to heal them, or again risk Magic loss. And mages also stick out like
a sore thumb to any other mage, whereas a sammie does not, in astral. There
are drawbacks both ways, arguing which are worse seems kinda pointless to me.
Why don't we start talking about how riggers are weaker tham magicians now?
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:15:31 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
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At 03:25 PM 7/2/97 -0005, you wrote:
>On 1 Jul 97 at 20:50, TopCat wrote:
>> I've been personally attacked in this, so now I have to reply. My
>> apologies in advance for continuing the thread after I said I would let
>> it die...
>IIRC you fired the first shots. And if I also RC you were so "generous"
>as to say that Paul could have the last word. Not Paul's fault if you
>didn't like those last words.
I fired shots? I merely tore down his argument and if successful opposition
to an argument is firing shots then I guess I am, indeed, guilty. Is it? I
was being generous, but Paul took my moment of generosity as a good
opportunity to rant and scream and flame a little and I took exception to
that. Just as I take exception to your little tantrum here.
>What's the matter, you can dish it out but you can't take it?
I haven't dished out anything. I haven't taken anything either, as I firmly
believe in my views and stress the realism behind them over some heated
little whinings as you seem to prefer. The only thing I plan to dish out is
more evidence that your view is wrong. Maybe there'll be a bit of sarcasm
within, but as I've mentioned in another post, it's only because I like to
keep my wit sharp. If all it takes is some mild sarcasm to get you so riled
up, you should have a breakdown after a couple months on the list with me :)
>What happened to that smug arrogant "I'm calm and in control"?
I'm still calm and in control. Remember, it's only arrogance if you aren't
beneath me. By this little tantrum of yours I'm sure we can all see that
you're down somewhere in the cracks of my sneaker soles.
>Do the world a favor, pull your bottom lip up over your face
>and swallow.
Aww, now that's just mean. Next thing you know you'll be swearing at me.
Remember my comment about the apes...
>You've criticized everything Paul had to say from the
>start, and been none to polite in how you went about it.
I may've not been polite, but I've been correct and quite clear. Paul and
yourself have been none of the three.
>You've proudly announced you would attack any opinion or POV he offered,
>regardless.
On this topic and if he continued with his shortsighted views, yes. I
would. I'd also be right in doing so.
>You've misquoted him, called him a liar, and refused to concede any point
>at all. When he offered factual information, you claimed it to be
>"immaginary".
I already went over this in another post. Quite funny really how you are
THAT far off. Is he related to you or something?
> You're egotistical blatherings have labelled you a foolish,
>immature, narrow-minded, bigoted, slandering idiot!
Foolish? Far from the fool am I. Immature? At times, yes, though not in
debate. Narrow-minded? I've opened my mind to thoughts few ever have and
ever will. That's why I can support my opinions with rational and logical
evidence rather than resorting to flames. Bigoted? Sometimes, but not
here. Slandering? I haven't reduced anyone's character from where it
already is, and certainly not to criminal levels if I did. Idiot? A 180
I.Q. and test scores of rather amazing levels prove me far above that.
Genius is the word commonly used.
Perhaps you should learn the language before you attempt to use it. Or
maybe think of who you try to use it upon? Or maybe think at all?
>And now you want to whine because somebody finally got fed up
>with your constant attacks and stood up to you.
Whine? Whining is what you've been doing throughout this tantrum. I merely
stated points and shot down Paul's mad ravings in my return post to the
thread. Just as I'm doing here, with you. I've made no attacks, merely
stated points in an often satirical, witty, and/or sarcastic manner. If you
can't handle this, perhaps you should refrain from reading my posts. You'll
lead a happier life for it.
>Don't expect anybody who's followed this thread to for
>even the slightest instant believe you to be the innocent party here. You
>picked a fight, you got your nose bloodied, and now your crying about it.
But they do, and in sending your little tantrum to the list they all get to
see exactly how weak you and your argument really are. I picked no fight
nor has one been directed at me, my nose is not bloodied, and I've yet to
cry and I can't see where, even figuratively speaking, this could have
occured. I've stated points, offered evidence, refuted the evidence
supported against my argument, and proved my argument. I've also proven
myself a better man for not resorting to such tantrums as you appear prone
to. Evolution does indeed backtrack now and then, I guess...
>Try posting something useful, after you've grown up.
I've posted many useful things here and I'll post many more. Whether or not
they're of use to you is, like you, inconsequential to me. Others here
certainly agree with me, though you and your chosen liege do not (at least
here). I'm quite "grown up" and it's rather funny to me how someone could
speak of such things in a tantrum such as this.
On to your next post, Ashlocke... TTFN ;^D
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:24:21 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
Something that I am playing around with right now is having (bad)
background count add to the force of the spell for purposes of determining
drain.
(I suppose (good) background count could reduce the force for purposes of
drain but it has never come up.)
--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers.
-Leonard Brandwein
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:21:37 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 03 Jul 1997 18:01:58 -0400"
<199707032201.SAA04289@******.san.uc.edu>
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You wrote:
> Because a gm has to deal with whiners who can't grasp his/her reasons behind
> why he/she belives in the lethality rules.
It's not our problem if your PCs are whiners, nor if anyone else's are whiners.
Anyone starts giving me crap over my decisions of how to play, I tell them they
can try running instead. This isn't a reason to change the rules, imo. If you
explain to your PCs why you're doing it, and they don't agree, they don't
*have* to play, y'know. There's always Monopoly.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:27:27 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [Admin] Runner's Attitudes
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 05:02 PM 7/3/97 -0600, Fro wrote:
>Lets steer this thread back to SR relevance, or end it. Right now its
>mainly name calling, finger pointing, etc.
And I was just getting started on taking the li'l flamer through the
proverbial ringer for his tantrums... Ah well, I'll stick to the SR meat of
the thread for now. Though I guess I've addressed the points that have been
made by my opposition on the subject (often remade and readdressed) so maybe
there really isn't anything more to say.
>Besides, you all have 3rd edition suggestions to be making :)
True enough... and on this side, how about the 3rd edition suggestions going
straight to Mr. Kenson instead of going to the list? This way, many hours
of needless argumentative posting can be avoided. For example, one person
says drain should be F one person says drain should be F/2, they argue for
days over it and nothing gets accomplished except a lot of posts of "I'm
right" "No, I'm right". If they go straight to Steve, then we avoid this
problem and suggestions actually get to be suggestions instead of debates.
That's just my take, though.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:30:16 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
In-Reply-To: <199707020150.UAA16969@*******.fgi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In message <199707020150.UAA16969@*******.fgi.net>, TopCat
<topcat@***.NET> writes
>I've been personally attacked in this, so now I have to reply.
Oh, dear, someone insult your approach to playing Shadowrun or
misrepresent your opinions? Yeah, that gets annoying, doesn't it?
>>If I'd seen anyone suggesting that, I'd agree it was pretty apathetic.
>>Interestingly, I've never claimed it, so why you persist in attributing
>>it to me is a mystery.
>
>Then why would a corp let a runner slide when any given shadowrun will cost
>a given corporation millions of nuyen in the big picture?
"Millions in the big picture"?
Interesting Widgets Inc. of Seattle (down in the small print it says "A
Mitsuhama Company - Making Tomorrow Brighter!") get raided, misses a
contractual delivery date, and loses half a million or so in follow-on
orders as a result.
Yup, that's going to shake the financial capitals of the world to the
core. I can see the screens flashing red, traders screaming "Sell all
the MCT you can get!", Mitsuhama's CEO leaping out of a high window...
Most people would have to dig through the annual report to even know
that Interesting Widgets wera a MCT subsidiary.
And you forget follow-on and linkups. Someone hits Miles Roystone and
shuts down their production line for a few weeks while they clear
rubble. Miles Roystone are small and independent, so the runners are
safe from their wrath. Right?
Except M-R make a special-to-type connector that Yamaetsu need for this
season's Hot Seller(TM) product, and now Yamaetsu have lost a quarter's
sales on a marvellous high-margin item while they either second-source
it or wait for Miles Roystone to reassemble their factory. Guess what?
You _did_ cost Yamaetsu big money and you never went near them.
This is the fundamental reason why "megas savagely hunt anyone who
crosses them, no matter what" is a foolish idea: because just about
anything a shadowrunner does ends up affecting a megacorporation, and
more often adversely than favourably.
>>I don't subscribe to the notion that, in the extreme, a corporation will
>>spend multiple millions of nuyen in hunting down and destroying a few
>>petty criminals. Most shadowruns don't involve that sort of cost to the
>>target, why throw good money after bad?
>
>Here's where you're wrong again. As I've explained before, market share and
>confidence play a huge part in stock value. If your research is stolen and
>a competitor can now take a chunk out of your market share, it'll cost you
>millions easy.
There are occasionally shadowruns that do _not_ involve stealing SOTA
research. Many such, in fact. Anything from internal faction fights, to
insurance frauds, to a site's security officer justifying a budget
increase or discrediting a superior. Most don't involve anything like
this level of cost.
And today's British stock market doesn't respond to every burglary and
break-in at a GEC or British Aerospace site. They don't even notice. Nor
do major companies comment on incidents like that unless forced to.
Markets can only respond to what they know (or think they know).
> Then the fact that it was stolen and nothing could/would be
>done about it would lower shareholder confidence and your stock would
>plummet. That's the way the world works now and it'll be worse in SR.
You persist in the assumption of total disclosure. Might it not be in
the corporate interest to keep this sorry affair quiet?
Of course, if you're already in all-out pursuit of the runner team, they
lose nothing by fully publicising their exploits. If you merely have
feelers out in case they make themselves obvious and have them on your
shit list for any future opportunity, they have incentive to keep quiet
and avoid embarrasing disclosures: once they blab, they _have_ done the
damage you describe and hunting them becomes much more sensible.
Large corporations in 2058 are extraterritorial: think what that means
to reporting. A UCAS investigative journalist researching a story can be
tried and convicted of espionage if necessary.
>As to a shadowrun not being worth that much, if it isn't worth that much, it
>isn't worth it for a corp to go through the effort to get runners to go
>after it.
If the benefit to the hirer outweighs the cost, it's worthwhile.
What's it cost to hire a typical runner team? Five runners, 20K each, a
hundred thousand nuyen.
>Unless of course a given corp really wants that office clerk's
>shopping list or the janitor's favorite plunger for personal reasons. If
>someone wants something bad enough that they'll hire runners, that given
>thing will be worth HUGE nuyen.
"That chosen something" might be an exec's promotion to Site Manager.
Worth every penny of a hundred thousand to _him_ to have his boss
discredited.
>>If you have cost the corporation ten or twenty million (and that's a
>>_big_ run), then you can expect a pretty savage hunt. If your run simply
>>planted some evidence that meant John Doe got knocked out of the running
>>for a certain promotion, and Richard Roe got the post instead; why is
>>the corporation even going to get involved? Why is it even going to know
>>there was a problem?
>
>Because runners broke in and tampered with official files.
You assume you're breaking into corporate HQ to do this? Much easier to
go for the guy's residence.
>>It puzzles me that Bob has so much trouble understanding this
>>distinction.
>
>I can understand where you're coming from, it's just wrong in many if not
>all cases. Said exceptions being found in the runner-friendly bumbling-corp
>worldview.
ECHO.... Echo... echo....
Nope. Still not a sign of comprehension. I type, the words appear, Bob
ignores them yet again.
>>It's also silly to go bankrupt hunting petty criminals.
>
>You still have no concept of the amount of cash that goes through a given
>megacorp.
You might be surprised.
Divide that across the globe. Across tens of thousands of sites, from
arcologies to retail outlets. Remember that just because you have huge
cash flow doesn't promise _anything_ about your profitability; you have
to earn a return to cover overheads like security.
In many ways small corporations are _more_ dangerous. They have a much
smaller area to cover, and much more to lose, and will fight
correspondingly harder for their survival.
> Microsoft is nowhere near the level of a megacorp (I think that's
>in CorpShad) now and look at the absolutely staggering amount of cash they have.
Corporate Shadowfiles states that no 2050s megacorporation exceeds the
size of Nestle in the first decade of the 21st century. Nestle is
currently capitalised at about 50 billion Swiss francs, or roughly 35
billion dollars.
You want to know about cash mountains, Bob? I'm an employee of, and
shareholder in, the General Electric Company (UK plc). Capitalised at
about five billion US dollars, yearly turnover seventeen billion
dollars, currently sitting on about two billion dollars in cash (down
from a 1993 peak of about four billion).
I know about being an employee of a large corporation. I know, for
instance, that I don't hear damn all about the day-to-day woes of units
outside GEC-Marconi Radar and Defence Systems, Underwater Weapons
Division. We get the odd rumour from the Broad Oak sites because they're
only a few miles away, and that's it. Donibristle I have some contact
with because we subcontract ATE manufacture to them, ditto Hill End for
PCBs, but I know a lot more about problems at Lucas Aerospace (not even
slightly related to us in corporate terms) than I do at other GEC sites.
>>The response will be in proportion to the damage done, Bob. How many
>>different ways do I have to say this?
>
>If the run would do no damage, the run would not be contracted in the first
>place. People don't just hire runners for fun, they hire them for
>industrial espionage.
Or to eliminate rivals, embarrass rival factions, as provocations to
corporate conflict, or for a hell of a lot of reasons. There are only so
many ultra-secret prototypes to steal in a year.
>Damage will be done in myriad ways and severe amounts
>from any run and backlash should go into the very high 6-digit range easily.
Six figures? Under a million. What's the benefit of spending as much
again on a manhunt for the perpetrators? Not much.
>Seven-digit would be more common and much higher being very possible. See
>the overall picture and it becomes quite clear.
It seems we radically disagree on "the overall picture", then. Runs of
that scale _are_ major events: they're enough to erase most smaller
corporations altogether. If you insist _every_ run against _every_ facet
of _every_ AAA corporation is of such scale, then while the risks are
high the rewards will match: one success and the survivors are
financially set for a long and happy retirement.
>How many ways should I say this?
Stop speaking and start listening.
>>I've snipped all your post, because I find your attitude bemusing and
>>your inability to comprehend what I write inexplicable: and while I
>>tried to come up with a response, I found your writing so bizarre on
>>occasion that it was virtually impossible to reply to.
>
>I've seen what you write and your claims and I find your worldview to be far
>too light even by today's standards let alone the world of 205X.
Just a small question, Bob: who do you work for? I'm employed by one of
the biggest engineering businesses in Britain. I have some experience of
corporate life, business culture, et cetera. I'm really curious as to
where you draw your conclusions, since they are so much at variance with
my own experiences.
>I've
>repeated this often while refuting your points and still you wonder what I'm
>trying to say? Come now, it is English that you speak, correct? Also,
>until you manage to come up with replies to what I've written, I'll simply
>(and righteously) believe that you could not refute my words.
Whatever you say, Bob. When I write "corporations will vary the vigour
of their hunt for those who have opposed them" and you quote me as "Paul
believes all megacorps are lax, lazy and stupid, and will pursue runners
in the style of the Keystone Cops", tell me again why you're worth
debating with?
I snipped your post because you started with either a misunderstanding
or a deliberate misstatement of my position, and proceeded to attack it.
Fine: but don't expect me to reply when you're not talking to me. You
want to debate, read what I write.
>>The mere fact that a target is a megacorporation doesn't change the
>>financial cost of a given run against it, and your fixation that every
>>run against any megacorp involves a cost of billions is the crux of the
>>problem here. If the cost is small, the benefit of pursuit is similarly
>>small.
>
>Millions, Paul. If it wasn't worth that to the group that contracted the
>run, then it wouldn't ever have been done. Industrial espionage isn't done
>for a smile and a handful of nuyen...
Not all shadowruns, even against megacorporations, are done for big
bucks. You think the Seattle branch of the West Coast division of the
UCAS arm of a megacorp isn't riddled with internal politics, feuds,
rivalry? Then you've never been in business.
If you're a relatively small business supplying epoxy adhesive, it might
be economic to attack a Fedederated-Boeing supply shipment or disable
their usual supply, since you'll be well-placed to make good the
deficit. Cost to Fed-Boeing, low. Benefit to the small corporation,
enormous. What's F-B going to spend hunting those runners down, Bob?
>>Many runs have no apparent cost: planting evidence to skew a promotion
>>board or influence a corporate disciplinary hearing, for instance. Done
>>properly they will never be detected, let alone pursued. You seem unable
>>to consider anything beyong The Big Datasteal as employment for
>>shadowrunners.
>
>Oh, I indeed do consider things beyond datasteals as runs, I don't think
>I've ever run a datasteal in fact. I get to smiling when you say "Done
>properly they will never be detected, let alone pursued". I find this
>laughable. Security done even at mediocre levels will detect and therefore
>will lead to pursuit.
Of course it will. Just as anyone committing a crime today will
invariably be pursued, arrested and convicted.
Oh, the national justice system today can't guarantee that? Then how is
a corporation operating in a foreign country going to do so?
>Try breaking into a local corporation's office building sometime.
Don't need to, I work in one.
>The corps
>here use everything from cameras to pressure sensors to keypad/keycard locks
>to guards to animals to motion sensors and I'm sure some things that I,
>myself, have not had the privilege to see as of yet.
So do we. In some areas. In others, we use a lot less.
Some sites are virtually open. Mine is well secured. It varies a lot,
amazingly enough. Guess what? Huge megacorporations are rather diverse.
>Those places are
>secure and at a rather minimal cost. There's no way that I or anyone could
>walk in there unnoticed, change a computer file or plant evidence, and get
>out without being noticed and pursued.That's 199X technology and 199X
>degree of paranoia and 199X degree of corporate resources devoted to
>security. Now expand this to 205X...
So, there are no shadowruns in your future, Bob?
Or your runners dream of they day when they are sufficiently capable to
heist the local Mexican restaurant's tortilla shipment, because any
larger target means certain detection and certain death?
You've yet to explain how your runners unerringly avoid any target that
might give offence to a megacorp, while still finding worthwhile
employment.
You're also assuming that runners walk up to security cameras saying
"Hi, my streetname is Diamond, I live at 235A North Drive in Renton, and
I'm going to take my gloves off and leave a full set of prints on this
glass-topped coffee table here so your security can find me more
easily".
Your security cameras might get you clothing and weapons. If your
runners give you faces or fingerprints (notwithstanding the difficulty
of getting prints off the inside of a busy corporate building) then you
still have the problem that SINless people don't appear in databases.
You have, in fact, a group of four dark-clad and masked people: one
unarmed, two with HK227s and one with a AK-97. They used the names
"Foxtrot", "Uniform", "Charlie" and "Kilo" among
themselves, though one
apparently slipped and referred to a colleague as "Bob".
There are three million registered and an uncertain number of SINless
citizens in Seattle. Assuming these people were from Seattle, their
accents place them from the MidWest, the East Coast, northern England
and perhaps South Africa respectively: but the computer gives a 78%
chance of voice masking being used by all four.
Explain how you get a clear enough identification for assassination out
of that little lot. I had to patch up a burglary where the perpetrators
were recorded by security camera: still didn't help find them, though.
>>One wonders whether that says more about you or me.
>
>It says a lot about both. I'm grounded in the reality of the situation and
>you... are not.
Whatever you say, Bob.
>Even if my view runs a bit darker and maybe isn't as kind
>to the runners,
Amazing how you insist mine is. Oh, I forgot, this is _your view_ of my
runs, not how I actually play.
>>Corporations exist for one single solitary purpose: to make profit.
>>The shadows are there as a tool to that end. Not as an end in
>>themselves.
>
>If the corps didn't want the shadows, they'd be gone. If the corps need
>something from the shadows, it's at their fingertips in seconds. Profit is
>the biggest driving goal (both on the streets and in the boardrooms) and
>through industrial espionage, more profit can be gained. If it couldn't
>bring profit, it wouldn't happen. If it isn't worth millions to a corp, it
>isn't worth bothering with.
So what, in the scheme of things, are half-a-dozen anonymous corpses
worth, if they were shadowrunners who pulled off a successful but
discreet raid against you?
Only you, they and their employer's chosen intermediary knew what they
did. So, you're not noticeably suppressing publicity: you're in more
danger of internal leaks throughout.
Their being dead doesn't noticeably reduce the cost of what they did,
and you had to divert assets from other employment to find and kill
them: possibly lost a couple in the process. More costs, still no
benefit.
Their being dead doesn't act as a deterrent, since effectively nobody
knows they carried out a successful run against you: and advertising
that you killed them because they crossed you publicises the hitherto-
unknown fact that they successfully defeated your security and got away.
There's also the technicality of having your hit squads operating in a
foreign country. It would be embarrasing, to say the least, to be
interrupted in an ambush of a group of runners by a Lone Star SWAT team
summoned by someone who noticed your strike force preparing to attack.
In fact, there still isn't a benefit in sight.
Now, if these runners are letting it be known that they "just pulled a
score on Shiawase" then they change that equation, and hunting and
killing them suddenly becomes much more profitable (just the act of
bragging would be enough to drive away most of their more intelligent
acquaintences, not to mention the more mercenary contacts who might make
a quiet call to Shiawase security).
Darwin would suggest, then, that successful runners are discreet
runners.
>Even if all that happens is one guy gets the new position while another guy
>is passed up, it has to be worth millions overall or it'd never happen.
>The
>pay raise is only the tiniest fraction of it. The real power gained by said
>promotion will be found in the greater amount of resources controlled than
>before. It becomes worth a considerable amount when you bring this aspect
>into view, which is what I've been asking you to do throughout this thread
>and steadfastly you refuse to do just that, looking only at the immediate
>situation. Rather shortsighted, don't you think?
And where does the corporation as a whole even become aware of this? The
moment they do, our newly-promoted exec can count his career as over. He
has as much interest in silence as the runners.
You can only respond to what you know about, be you an investor playing
the markets or a corporate CEO.
>>Thank you so much for demonstrating your open mind. No matter what I
>>say, you will try to attack and disprove it?
>
>Not try, I will as I have here.
Bob, if I say "TopCat claims that the moon is made of green cheese", I
can "prove you wrong" very easily indeed. So what?
You have to do something about my _actual_ opinions, not this bizarre
construct you persist in attributing to me.
>>If you genuinely believe that's all I've said, then I'd suggest you
>>killfile me; because I don't want to waste words on someone determined
>>to misinterpret them.
>
>You claim they will let them slide if it isn't worth it for them to pursue
>the runners, correct? I know this is correct because I have indeed been
>reading this.
Comprehension dawns upon Mr Ooton at last.
>Anyways, you then follow this up with "runs aren't worth
>enough to merit pursuit anyway" statements and "if done right, no can
>defend" thoughts on running which are shortsighted in the extreme and
>positively hilarious, respectively.
Oh, dear. The promising beginning peters out into satire once again.
Bob, I have - repeatedly - tried to explain to you that perhaps not
every shadowrun is a matter for the personal attention of a megacorp's
CEO. That there exists, in fact, a scale of shadowrunning, ranging from
little more than burglary of less-secure sites (low benefit, hence low
pay and low pursuit) to the theft of the 2050s equivalent of the first
F-22 Raptor prototype, which is a retirement job in anyone's terms
(probably demanding permanent asylum in the corporation the mission was
undertaken for as part of the payment).
Try to understand the concept of "flexibility".
>Then there's the "once I get to the
>Barrens, I'm safe" and "I'll take my story to the media too" and
"they won't
>sell me out" statements. Those are like the icing in the comedy cake for me...
In some cases they are true, too. In others they are not. Not everyone
plays for the highest stakes, Bob.
>>If you were determined at the outset that you would not, could not, be
>>persuaded to even slightly alter your view, why bother posting your
>>views at all? This group is for _discussion_.
>
>Because you've done just the same and so has anyone else posting here in
>this thread. We've all posted our views and we all feel we are in the
>right. You've never discussed anything throughout this thread.
I'm not the one who suggests that _any_ interference with a
megacorporation, no matter how low-profile or minor, will result in a
totality of pursuit matched only by the Mossad going after the Black
September terrorists. (Not a bad analogy for what will happen when you
annoy a megacorporation enough, by the way).
> You've
>stated and restated a shortsighted view of the economic impact any given run
>will have as well as a shortsighted view of the societal interactions which
>make Shadowrun the great game it is. I've refuted it and offered new
>evidence, you simply restate. I refute and offer, you restate. Who is
>truly discussing here, Paul?
Well, I'm trying to answer what you write, at least when can be
considered even a tenuous reply to a statement of mine. But I'm not the
one claiming to speak for FASA and "how the game is meant to be played"
and never have been. Nor have I ridiculed either you or your playing
style: I've merely attempted to explain why I disagree with your
position.
>>I don't particularly mind the fixity of your views: what I find
>>extremely offensive is the way you misrepresent my position and then
>>post lengthy and largely irrelevant diatribes on that misrepresentation.
>>Believe what you like: but try to allow others the same privilege.
>
>Come now Paul, if you read and understand my postings you'll know that you
>can't refute them due to the scope of which I've taken this particular
>situation.
My, my, aren't we modest?
If you are so convinced that your worldview of the 2050s is infallible,
when can we expect you to replace FASAMike as line developer?
And if you are so convinced of the rightness of your opinions, why can't
you honestly represent mine in the debate?
>>No, thank you. I post to this list for the discussion. You are not
>>interested in discussion.
>
>Quite the contrary, I do so enjoy discussion on certain topics. This
>happens to be one of them.
Then discuss it, Bob. That does, unfortunately, entail a measure of
understanding of the opposing point of view, even a degree of
flexibility. It also requires treating contending views with respect.
While any dissent from your position is dismissed as "babble" then
there's little point.
>I do not, however, accept incorrect and
>shortsighted viewpoints. I try to explain to the person who would hold such
>a viewpoint that they need to think on a grander scale. You obviously will
>not do just that or you'd have agreed with me days ago as many others have.
On the contrary: I don't accept your monotheistic view of corporations
unhindered either by internal politics or external rivalry, aware of
every pinprick, possessing infinite resources with which to crush the
handful of SINless individuals who cross their paths.
Even megacorporations make mistakes, whether at Board level or whether
in the person of a single site's head of security. A megacorporation is
not a discrete, homogenous entity: it's a collection of millions of
individuals.
>Why not take the long view, Paul?
The long view, Bob, is that in my personal experience (nine years with a
major multinational) your thesis is fundamentally flawed. That means I
can consider your views carefully, then disagree with them. That means I
can play a Shadowrun game where it's possible to run against a
megacorporation and live. Funnily enough, FASA seem to agree with me:
play "Ivy and Chrome" and you take on an Aztechnology strike force. That
strikes me as "opposing the corporation", yet this is a module where
survival appears possible. Aztechnology want the whole incident
forgotten; and if the runners remain silent they are relatively safe.
Not my opinion, Bob. Ivy and Chrome, page 57.
You are entirely welcome to your opinions. But where they directly
contradict both my personal experience and FASA's published material, ,
I am totally entitled to disregard them. What I resent is your
insistence that you and only you are right; and the way you are unable
to tackle the questions raised by others, relying on distortion of their
arguments instead.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:34:01 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [Admin] Runner's Attitudes
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
And for part two...
I've deleted all of the posts in my mailbox about the subject (except for a
couple of mine which I'll be keeping for later conversations). This'll
ensure that I won't stoke the fires any further by replying to the tantrums
anymore, despite a great personal desire to do so...
Now to figure out what I want out of SR3...
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:33:50 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 03 Jul 1997 15:17:12 -0700"
<199707032228.SAA28293@********.mcit.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
You wrote:
> Stim patches possibly causing magic loss has always been a rule AFAIK.
Ever since 1st ed, yup.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:54:53 -0400
Reply-To: shergold@***********.net
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: shergold <shergold@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Nightlife wrote:
>
> but the thing is that that they don't even think twice about sending off
a
> force 6 or better spell because they won't risk falling over. There's
been
> two many time i've seen a mage toss five and six spells at force 6 or
better
> and not even break a sweat.
>
I don't know how it was in the game you were in, but the game I was in I
saw plenty of the magic types pass out, or hurt something casting a force 6
or better spell. Also in the game I was in frequently the sammies and a
couple of phys ads cleaning everything up before the magicker got a spell
off or could get into a position he/she could do the most without damaging
the rest of the team (some of the characters liked to get into h-t-h
because they could do more damage IMHO or didn't like guns) with an area
effect spell or be able to see past the mass of bodies.
SilverFire
"I merely chewed in self-defense."
-Draco the Dragon
"Dragonheart"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:45:31 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 04 Jul 1997 01:12:34 +0000"
<199707032316.BAA09162@***.uio.no>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
You wrote:
> The difference is also obvious - the mage can walk in anywhere with
> his magic; heavy weapons is something quite different. Since subtlety
> is very stressed in shadowrun, it is not exactly a sensible, or
> valid, example.
Anywhere? Mages are easier to pick out of a crowd than sammies if you have
magical support. "There he is!!"
losthalo, again pointing out that the advantages/disadvantages are situational
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:46:25 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Greg Childress <greg@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707032109.RAA28813@******.san.uc.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 05:09 PM 7/3/97 -0400, Nightlife wrote:
>Don't even try it the stun equal nearly being dead. Stun fades espically
>with the vanilla rules using stim patches. As for when is better to be
>knocked out rather than dead. Almost every game that I'm involved in.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
No, I think I will try it... if you don't mind
What is the target number for a serious stun wound?
Why, it's +3, just like the physical wound
How about the initiative adjustment?
Well, imagine that -3, just like physical damage
As far as knocked out vs. nearly dead;
if you fall unconscious to the ground in the middle of a fire fight after
casting spell that didn't even begin to damage the opposition then guess
what... you are dead
But wait, stun damage heals faster than physical
Sure, one box an hour; "Excuse me, angry SWAT guys, could you give me an
hour to rest please?"
Still there ARE stim patches...
"The magician makes a Magic test against a target number equal to the
patch's rating. If the test fails, the magician must follow the
procedure for possible essence loss as if he had taken a Deadly wound"
BBB pg 250
Yeah, that's just great, no worries about stun damage now
Look, maybe an alteration in the system is necessary, maybe even good. My
beef is with THIS alteration. Incorporating staging numbers seems like a
good idea to me, not to mention one that would be as easy to implement as
the F/2-F change. Frankly I don't think that there is anything wrong with
the basic game mechanics of magic. The problems are really with the theory
and explanation. The system as it is vague and confusing on issues like
the mechanics of relationships in astral space, where the Physical Adepts
fit into the picture (Initiation for Physads SUCKS for the amount of Karma
involved, but it's the only way to grow magically so you're just stuck) It
is the theory and background that needs to be clarified and compiled in any
new tome discussing the SR magic system.
<greg>
"You slump to the ground just as a grenade
roles into the room"
"Well, I'm just damn glad I'm only
unconscious!"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:48:40 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Greg Childress <greg@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
In-Reply-To:
<c=US%a=_%pÞSHAW%l=MSBOSTON1-970703211542Z-4425@*********.boston.deshaw.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 05:15 PM 7/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
> Why doesn't everyone just use the Increased Lethality Rules for
>drain, listed in the Shadowrun, 2nd edition rule book, IF it suits their
>campaign, instead of trying to enforce a system wide moritorium on what
>drain should be? I thought that's what they were there for.
>
>Victor
Because we're discussing the rules for SRIII
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Instead of trying to build newer / Greg Childress
and bigger weapons of destruction, /
Mankind should be thinking about / greg@***.edu
getting more use out of the ones / pcstud3@***.edu
we have. / http:\\jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu\child_gp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
When you've seen one non-sequitur, the price of tea in China.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 01:51:38 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <runefo@***.uio.no>
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Organization: The University of Oslo
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <01IKT76550M09I49K9@******.acs.muohio.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Bruce Nagel wrote:
> > On the other hand, mages' are supposed to be versatile rather than
> > specialists;
> Why? No more than sammies are specialists, some learn demolitions, stealth,
> and skills for defeating security, etc. Talking about what mages are
> 'supposed' to be is a problem, imo.
Okay. Mages are not restricted much in spells, so most mages can take
a wide selection of spells. In addition, buying new spells,
especially at moderate force, is extremely cheap. Therefore they
usually end up with a wide selection of spells, which, unless the
mage takes a lot of identical spells, makes him versatile. Now, they
do not have to do this, but they *can* so very easily do this that
it is reasonable for the sake of this discussion to assume they will
do so. That's why.
> Ah yes, the dreaded spell locks. Either give them reasons to be careful
> leaving their locked spells on (opposing mages ansd spirits), they're easy to
> break and expensive, or disallow them. This still doesn't make the
> _low_spell_drain_ a problem.
It's a matter of balance we're speaking of, remember? And a lot of
things enter into this discussion. It seems the conclusion will then
be wether drain should be F or F/2. And spell locks, and quickenings,
enter the picture here.
> > An option would be to have each mage choose one area of spells
> > where he takes F/2 drain, and F drain in the rest.. :)
> Bleh... don't care for this tack. What about the guy who wants to be good at
> both areas his totem gives him advantages for (say, Illusion and Detection or
> something)? Again, you're turning mages into a specific type of thing: "I'm a
> healer, Bob's the artillery of the group".
Notice the smiley? It's not a serious suggestion.
>
> > 'pet peeve spells'
> > Incr. reaction +1 & +3 is identical once on a spell lock. No reason
> > to ever use +1. (Same goes with the other attribute spells).
> If you use it on a spell lock. Could always use it on someone else in the
> group who needs a reflex boost... I won't repeat the solution to spell locks.
Well, most of them have incompatiblle reflex boosts allready, so that
is a rare use, to put it mildly. And even then, why use +1? It's cast
at very low force anyway, so there's no drain almost no matter what.
> > Fix: Bonding/quickening cost is multiplied by drain level. (1,2,3,4)
> > (As if mages didn't have enough karma drains.. tough luck.).
> And Quickened spells can be killed in Astral, too, send a spirit to harry the
> mage's Quickenings, he gets to decide to face you or the spirit...
As long as he can make a quickening a fair bit tougher than any
spirit, I do not see the point. And spells and constructs are not
susceptible to outnumbering, so sending a horde of watchers only gets
a horde of watchers killed.
> > Sleep: Triple whammy: Cheap drain, takes out enemies
> > effectively, and you can also interrogate the suckers afterwards.
> Perhaps a little broken. Fix the few broken spells. Why change the whole
> Drain system to fix a few problems that aren't _in_ the drain section of the
> rules?
I should have stated more clearly that this is part of the things I
would like fixed about third edition, not drain itself.
(A question which arose out of that discussion).
> > Damaging manipulations - not enough bang for the buck.
> > (Resisted against lower target numbers and usually more dice.. and
> > also a lot more drain, makes these spells underpowered compared to
> > their drain.)
>
> > Should it be fixed? No, they shouldn't be as powerful as combat
> > spells.
> Why not? I'd like to hear the reasoning why they 'shouldn't' be as powerful as
> Combat Spells. They're different, they do slightly different things, they have
> advantages and disadvantages, and I like that.
Again, versatility. You can have elemental adepts. If elemental
(earth) adepts could cast combat spells as effective as an elemental
(fire) adept, in addition to all the other manipulation spells
available, then there is no reason to create elemental fire adepts. I
prefer things to be at least somewhat balanced, and no 'class'
totally uninteresting.
Guys, the listserv appears to be suffering from accute Drain
Dhiarreah...
--
Fade
"It's better to burn out, than to fade away!"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:01:04 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Sub-Runners
In-Reply-To: <199707031655.KAA27395@******>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In message <199707031655.KAA27395@******>, David Buehrer
<dbuehrer@****.ORG> writes
>The runners have
>been stripped of their weapons, and I'm thinking of arming the sub
>personnel with nothing larger than a pistol (is that appropriate for
>subs?).
Sub crews (idiot movies like Crimson Tide aside) are unarmed. There are
something like two rifles aboard a RN sub, secured in a locker (they're
only there in case the boat puts into port and it's necessary to post
armed sentries). By tradition, our bombers have a truncheon hanging by
the safe holding the missile launch codes, too. That's it for firearms.
Firefights inside metal cylinders full of delicate equipment get nasty
fast.
The USN used to have slightly more firearms aboard, mostly due to the
carriage of SUBROC and TLAM-N whose nuclear warheads demanded that the
TMOW double as armed sentry. With those weapons retired, so did a lot of
the weapons locker.
No other weapons, unless you manage to swipe one of the cook's knives
from the galley or feel like throwing potatoes from the spud locker :)
>Basically, its the end of the adventure and I want all hell to break
>loose.
>
>Got any good ideas?
Sure. Forget the guns, have a confused and vicious melee amidst an
engineering casualty or even battle damage (maybe the sub was hit and is
flooding during the fight, the power's failing, the reactor's SCRAMmed,
smoke is curling from the vents from a fire in A-Div...)
Submarines are _wonderful_ places to have fights in. _Everything_ you
break by accident is vital, or it wouldn't be there in the first place.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:49:18 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
| >A) This depends on which spells you are talking about. If you're
talking
| >manabolt or manaball, where's the problem with that?
| >B) I've seen a group of basically sammies gun down a group of gangers at
close
| >range, with only firearms (no grenades, etc) at four-to-one odds,
without
| >breaking a sweat, in a round and a half. Same thing.
|
| Point A never mind. Point B No it's not. A group of sammies with firearms
| are supposed to wreak this kind of damage. Without their guns and cyber
| they're close to equal terms with the gangers. The mage however even if
hes'
| named has a really good chance of taking them all out with a area effect
spell.
True he does under the current rules have a good chance at that, and he
should. Why should the mage autmatically suck in combat? The sammies did
the job in the same amount of time without any repurcussions of a physical
nature, the mage had to resist drain. Granted the sammies need
gear...that's fine that's one of their drawbacks in the same way that a
mage can't add cyberware without paying the price.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:46:30 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
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| Let's take another example then.. F/2 exclusive manaball at force 6.
| The mage takes 2S drain; not hard to avoid. Add two dice and it's
| no drain at average with some margin of safety. (assuming he has 6
| willpower.). This leaves 10 dice for the success test.
Exclusive spells are a completely different animal and not what we are
discussing.
| If the samurai has willpower 6, he has a slim chance. (Severely
| wounded on average, can resist, but can also get deadly all too
| easily.). At will 5 he's dead... and so is any number of his
| buddies. And 5 willpower is supposed to be pretty ok.
|
| A nice rule of thumb is, use power spells on mages, mana spells on
| trolls and samurai. I assume you chose your example with that in
| mind.
Sure why wouldn't you, in even the above example if you use the F drain
option, then the mage resists 4 S drain, which means we needs to devote
more pool if he wants to take care of the drain, plus he's still got to get
6's which is the same targetnumber the sammie needs. The only thing that
gives the mage any chance at all is lucky rolls and magic pool. Magic pool
will always be there regardless of drain. It would be safe to assume that
the sammie has already unloaded 20 rounds down range by now doing god knows
what to who and now the mage has a slight chance of hurting him. I think
that you over estimate the rolls that this mage is going to make.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:25:42 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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| All full blown mages can summon, cast spells, read aura, go astral etc...
As
| for the mage-decker what's that got to do with this debate.
The point that I was trying to make is that there will always be things
that certain people can do and others cannot. If a sammie is worthless
outside of combat then the person who made him was either a munchkin or
made a mistake. If a mage is bad in combat it should be for the same
reason, not because the rules forbid him from having a decent chance in a
fight.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:36:05 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
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| >Everyone faces death by bullet, to sammies face death by recoil?
|
| Not everyone faces death by a bullet. As for the recoil does it kill a
mage
| any faster?
So characters in your game don't ever get shot at? Do they stay inside?
(This is an honest question.)
Recoil doesn't kill anyone, that's my point. A sam can deal out 18D damage
with no side effect to resist, but ammo expenditures. Can a mage do that
with magic?
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:07:17 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes <OT-burn, baby, burn (it's a disco infern
In-Reply-To: <199707032037.PAA28786@*******.fgi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In message <199707032037.PAA28786@*******.fgi.net>, TopCat
<topcat@***.NET> writes
>Here's what Paul said... read and enjoy...
>
>"Let's assume it doubles between now and 2007"
>
>Score! "Let's assume it doubles" that's what I call imaginary numbers.
>Wouldn't you call that imaginary? Disagree with me here at will, I'd love
>to see you claim that "assumption" to be anything but imaginary... heh
Okay, Bob. I took a stab at an upper limit because not many corporations
of that size, maturity and variety pull off the feat of doubling in a
decade.
What's _your_ opinon, then? Come on, Bob, show us the big picture. Give
us your educated opinion. You don't like my numbers? Don't whine about
how I'm "making them up", offer something better.
You _do_ have a better idea and evidence to back it, surely?
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:33:28 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
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| > Damaging manipulations - not enough bang for the buck.
| > (Resisted against lower target numbers and usually more dice.. and
| > also a lot more drain, makes these spells underpowered compared to
| > their drain.)
|
| > Should it be fixed? No, they shouldn't be as powerful as combat
| > spells.
| Why not? I'd like to hear the reasoning why they 'shouldn't' be as
powerful as
| Combat Spells. They're different, they do slightly different things,
they have
| advantages and disadvantages, and I like that.
I disagree here ALOT. Damaging manipulations have nasty drain yes, but
they are more powerful thatn combat spells IMO. Low target numbers to hit,
and the damage works like ranged combat...definately negates the whole
shielding adding to the target number bonus.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:55:26 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
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| > Why doesn't everyone just use the Increased Lethality Rules for
| >drain, listed in the Shadowrun, 2nd edition rule book, IF it suits their
| >campaign, instead of trying to enforce a system wide moritorium on what
| >drain should be? I thought that's what they were there for.
| >
| >Victor
|
| Because we're discussing the rules for SRIII
Because Greg, Steve K. asked how we felt about the drain of spells and what
the "default" should be F/2 or F. Since then Nightlife and Myself among
others have been discussing it, with what I would like to believe are
legitimate points on both sides...Steve asked for reasons and gosh durnit
Nightlife and I gave 'em some. :)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:56:39 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
In-Reply-To: <199707032248.RAA05055@*******.fgi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In message <199707032248.RAA05055@*******.fgi.net>, TopCat
<topcat@***.NET> writes
>>IMO, Paul believes that the lower tiers of a Megacorp have defense
>>that can be bypassed (though it will take a little work)
>Paul also believes that the higher tiers as well can be penetrated without
>problem whereas I do not. Herein lies the gist of the argument.
Now, here we go again...
One wonders if Bob subscribes to the list. I _know_ what I believe, I
know what I have repeatedly told Bob, and it is most surely not the
above.
You claim to have archived all the posts. Please state where I said
anything like that... I'm interested to know what slip of the keyboard
planted this pernicious weed in your mind to the exclusion of all else.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:38:00 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
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| Comabt is the sammies only job unlike the mages who get to do two things
at
| once. Sammies can't go astral last time I checked. A mage doesn't need to
be
| as good at combat like the sammies if he wants he can go sling spells in
a
| magic department for pat and fun. No matter where the sammie works death
is
| what he faces every time he does his job.
Combat should not be the sammies only job any more than it should be the
mages only job. Leaving damage codes where they are doesn't bring the mage
on par with the sammie for combat abilities, it just give him a fighting
chance to not get his ass kicked.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:17:05 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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At 07:09 PM 7/3/97 -0500, you wrote:
>How about this for limiting the effectiveness of magicians: delete Magic Pool.
>Force them to resist Drain and incoming spells like everyone else, without a
>bonus pool of dice to draw upon. Let Sorcery limit the maximum Force of spells
>they can cast along with Magic Attribute. Less discretionary dice to throw
>into augmenting the spell or resisting drain, and he's going to be more careful
>about what he casts...
>
>losthalo
I like that idea.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:31:12 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
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| I'm not talking about force 2 and 3 spells. The sammies gonna fall over
from
| a force 6 spells anyway. The mage should atleast break a sweat in doing
just
| that.
Okay that's cool, but if those are combat spells they are pretty much
worthless is my point.
| >A buddy with a medkit.
|
| With three dice wow I'm impressed. You keep throwing in gear to balnce
the
| equation. I'm talking buck naked.
A Sammie uses gear absolutely, but we aren't talking about naked people
running around, and even if we were if the mage goes unconscious trying to
powerbolt the naked sammie and he takes a serious stun while the sammie
takes nothing (because he has a body of 6 and the spell was force 2 or 3)
that mage is pretty much screwed.
| >The guys who don't go unconscious have a chance to help those that have,
or
| >those that have died, or run away screaming...that's the point. Once
you
| >go down for any reason you are useless for the rest of the encounter.
|
| Let me steer this away from combat for a second or two If you've lost
your
| just as screwed as those taken prisoner. They have a chance top eascape
not
| the dead guy. The next arguementhopefully will go beyond combat because
your
| not gonna change my mind or alter my views.
And that's fine, I don't want to change how you play SR that would be lame,
I just think that if FASA made F drain the default they would be doing a
great disservice to the newbie players of SR.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:27:39 PDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Jul 1997 09:01:06 PDT."
<199707031659.MAA24164@********.mcit.com>
>Agreed...if you don't want or do want something that's fine we've all been
>using net stuff forever anyway, but please make sure you close as many
>loopholes as possible and finalize those damn contorversies. I say avoid
>"powered armor," but that's just me.
Actually, that warning's a bit late... See the entry on millitary
grade armor in FoF.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:33:46 PDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Jul 1997 10:12:34 PDT."
<970703131213_-1293565612@*******.mail.aol.com>
>OK, survey question #2 (following up on the Pet Peeves thread):
>
>Many people have suggested setting Spell Drain TNs back at Force instead of
>F/2. What do people think of this? Please remember, I need to know WHY you
>think the idea is good or bad.
What about having it as variable?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:27:24 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Joshua T Brown <spamquat@****.COM>
Subject: Corp Politics (Repost)
Since no one answered my questions, I'll assume there was an error in the
sending of this.... here it is again....
Let me know If you got it the first time, and for God's sake, reply in
some form so I know my mail is getting to the list... Even If it's just a
"Kumquat, you suck" Message.
(Shudders, realizing he has just invited a flood of "You Suck" mail, as
usual.<smirk>)
On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:06:06 -0500 TopCat <topcat@***.NET> writes:
>Okay... let's find that point and stretch it out a bit :)
Happy to oblige. I always enjoy discussing this kind of thing with
someone else bright enough to not take everything personally and let it
degenerate into a complete flamefest.... Don't let me down... Yer not
done yet, the argument (er... discussion) is just getting good.
>I've already gone through my reasons why I feel it is very much worth
>it to a megacorp to track down runners who hit them, so check back on
those
>previous postings for the particulars...
> What I propose requires such minimal effort & resources as to be almost
nothing to > a megacorp.
Don't forget, Even the Megas are comprised of individuals... MANY
individuals whose personal carelessness could be exploited. Persons of
responsibility who have flaws which might require selective
miscommunication to avoid their own faults being exposed. For example,
the mid-level exec who has a taste for joyboys, and is careless enough to
reveal something which the enterprising youth steals/remembers/videotapes
for sale to Joe Shadowrunner. Even if the exec finds out about his
mistake, he may not tell anyone for fear that his own stupidity or even
his exotic sexual habits may come to light. The potential for
miscommunication, coverups, etc, is mind-boggling and could explain how a
team gets in... totally discounting the "inside job" concept. Corps do
NOT think as a singular entity, as they have far too many individuals who
could screw up communication, and also see politics, below... (With the
notable possible exception of the Lofwyr-controlled S-K.... Ya mess with
Saeder-Krupp in my game, the most ya can hope for is an interesting death
scene and a nice funeral... see "Threats" for why)
Though you have identified your strength in debate by selectively
addressing only the points made which you can easily defeat with
semantics, and I do respect that.... (a man after my own heart <smirk>)
There *are* still valid arguments, the best of which have been left
unaddressed.
1) Politics - The matter of inside "scapegoats". Most corps, even the
leanest, meanest megas are riddled with the All-too-(meta)human weakness
of company politics. You seem to have completely failed to take this into
account. Behind the scenes, there is someone (We'll call him Bob) who
has access to the godlike technology, which for the sake of argument
we'll assume exists, to track and kill the runners. (Who are likely
SINless, and don't exist in most databases, likely were bright enough to
not reveal their faces, leave fingerprints, shell casings, material links
(Damn, I'm shedding again), etc, etc....)
Bob, due to human error, erroneous timing, an exploited flaw in
technology or planning, or just plain real bad luck, is in trouble. Some
runner jerks just busted in, and stole the new whatchamajigger. Yeah,
that's right, the blue one. <smirk>
If he releases the "hounds", then the corporate sharks who want his job,
or just don't want HIM to have it, might smell blood, and he might spend
his own energy finding someone else to blame further down the food chain,
to cover his own butt. Or, Alternatively, maybe the sharks DO smell
blood, and use their own resources to make Bob impotent until it is too
late, and the runners have gotten away with it, and Bob just sort of
vanishes when the bosses find out. There are 101 other company politics
reasons, conspiracies and other stuff which is beyond the runners
control, which to me, adds to both the paranoia and the overall
intelligence level of the game, taking it beyond "BLAM!" "Plugged me
another Shadowrunner," style games, to a complex web of intrigue,
doublecrosses and unlikely temporary allies which seems to better sum up
the overall flavor of the game as we know it.
2) "The way the game was designed to be played" -- Now THAT's egotism. In
many FASA-published modules (best examples are the ones with the Aztech
Assassin from Mercurial, his name slips the mind) Inter-corporate games,
good luck, or even less potentially compelling reasons allow the runners
to break in, get out, and even *gasp* get away from the Big Boys and
their hired guns, and it is often explained by politics.
If you're citing game design as the correct way for the Corps to be run,
you're as far off the mark as someone who makes the megas too easy.
FASA's made a point that though it may be as hard as fraggin' hell to
prove it, NO ONE is untouchable, mainly because the runner groups have no
Corp bosses to placate, no Corporate Court to worry about, less media
attention, a smaller consumer base to hide dirty deeds from, less large
scale competition, and fewer people to hide if things go wrong.
>
>Now here's where you missed... I specifically stated that swearing is
>the last resort of the person who has no way to express himself. <smirk>
Point taken, I stand corrected.
Hopefully, I'll not miss again. <smirk>
==============================================================
The Kumquat -- Josh Brown -- Kumquat@*****.com -- Spamquat@****.com --
Shadowrun Page Still Under Development -- Coming Soon!
"Support Whirled Peas" -- <smirk> -- "Whatever, Man" --
"Woo Hoo!" --
....Don't hate me Because I'm... ahh, screw it, hate me. <smirk>
==============================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:53:48 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Harlequin <harlequin@*********.CA>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Fasa should include NERPS, TSS and *MANY* stuff on the Paolo Marcucci's
Archive on the 3rd edition!!!
and also a LOT of stuff from this mailing list too... ;o)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:53:02 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
On Thu, 3 Jul 1997 04:06:18 -0500 Barbie <barbie@**********.COM> writes:
>A good formular would be
>0.08988xinchx0.08988xinchx0.0888xinchx0.0136x47.
>Inch means hight and the result would be in pound.
Eh?
Wouldn't it be easier if it was expressed as:
(all the decimal numbers multiplied together) x (height in inches)^3
..and even then where'd that formula come from?
~Tim
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:09:05 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
>Why don't we start talking about how riggers are weaker tham magicians now?
Sounds like fun.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:09:10 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
>No, I think I will try it... if you don't mind
Actually I do mind. Adding on damage possibilities doesn't even change what
I orginally said. You're altering the argument to suit your needs as it
needs to change. My arguement was buck nacked and without gear fresh without
wound now you go and alter the situation.
>What is the target number for a serious stun wound?
> Why, it's +3, just like the physical wound
Are bleeding to death a a serious stun I thought not.
>How about the initiative adjustment?
> Well, imagine that -3, just like physical damage
Awww too bad take a stim patch and deal with it.
> Sure, one box an hour; "Excuse me, angry SWAT guys, could you give
me an
>hour to rest please?"
Sure after your budy takes 4 - 6 weeks in intensive care to get back on his
feet.
>Still there ARE stim patches...
> "The magician makes a Magic test against a target number equal to the
> patch's rating. If the test fails, the magician must
follow the
> procedure for possible essence loss as if he had taken a Deadly wound"
> BBB pg 250
>
> Yeah, that's just great, no worries about stun damage now
Sure do it rating one four or five times.
> "You slump to the ground just as a grenade roles into the room"
> "Well, I'm just damn glad I'm only unconscious!"
Cheap shot. Of course if the guy is already wounded might be a little
unhappy as he gets shreadded into jerky by another wounbd onto of what he
already has and the unconsious guy gets it with serious unless he rolls
down. Aww too bad. Who get to wake up later in a hospital the unconsious guy
or the one already wounded. In the case that they were both fresh the
unconsious guys no worse off and the seriously guy gets to fight on. Same
difference either way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:11:20 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
>True he does under the current rules have a good chance at that, and he
>should. Why should the mage autmatically suck in combat? The sammies did
>the job in the same amount of time without any repurcussions of a physical
>nature, the mage had to resist drain. Granted the sammies need
>gear...that's fine that's one of their drawbacks in the same way that a
>mage can't add cyberware without paying the price.
If he wanted to be a sammie then he shouldn't have decided to be a mage. TS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:09:08 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
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Ahh hell with it. take it to the curb.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:12:23 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <Dreadnaut1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In a message dated 97-07-03 22:10:38 EDT, Caric wrote:
> Recoil doesn't kill anyone, that's my point. A sam can deal out 18D damage
> with no side effect to resist, but ammo expenditures. Can a mage do that
> with magic?
>
no, but the mage doesn't have to lug around an assault cannon to use his
magic...
Later-
Duncan
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:13:42 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-version: 1.0
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>The point that I was trying to make is that there will always be things
>that certain people can do and others cannot. If a sammie is worthless
>outside of combat then the person who made him was either a munchkin or
>made a mistake. If a mage is bad in combat it should be for the same
>reason, not because the rules forbid him from having a decent chance in a
>fight.
Or just trying to follow what the precepts of the game set up for him.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:16:54 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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>So characters in your game don't ever get shot at? Do they stay inside?
>(This is an honest question.)
No, thats an insult. As for the question it's called bullet barrier.
>Recoil doesn't kill anyone, that's my point. A sam can deal out 18D damage
>with no side effect to resist, but ammo expenditures. Can a mage do that
>with magic?
If he picks up the same gun he can. The sammie needs the gun to hand out
that kind of damage. The mage can design a spell to duplicate it. Can the
sammie summon a spirit?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:18:39 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
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> Since then Nightlife and Myself among
>others have been discussing it, with what I would like to believe are
>legitimate points on both sides...Steve asked for reasons and gosh durnit
>Nightlife and I gave 'em some. :)
Damn right ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 04:40:56 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <runefo@***.uio.no>
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Organization: The University of Oslo
Subject: Re: Sub-Runners
In-Reply-To: <20d0mEAw8CvzEwpo@********.demon.co.uk>
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Paul wrote:
> Submarines are _wonderful_ places to have fights in. _Everything_ you
> break by accident is vital, or it wouldn't be there in the first place.
*LOL*!
I just hope they have a troll on steroids in the team... :)
--
Fade
"It's better to burn out, than to fade away!"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 04:40:56 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <runefo@***.uio.no>
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Organization: The University of Oslo
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707040000.TAA16404@********.mcit.com>
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Caric wrote:
> | Let's take another example then.. F/2 exclusive manaball at force 6.
> | The mage takes 2S drain; not hard to avoid. Add two dice and it's
> | no drain at average with some margin of safety. (assuming he has 6
> | willpower.). This leaves 10 dice for the success test.
>
> Exclusive spells are a completely different animal and not what we are
> discussing.
Oh, so ways to reduce drain has no bearing on a discussion of what
base drain should be? How remiss of me. It is clear I have no idea
whatsoever of how the magic system works, and withdraw from
the argument... COME ON! Grow up!
You guys argue like little children. You try to dredge up points
where mages are weaker than samurai, and to prove the point, you use
totally pointless examples. (A mage facing a samurai in a straight
shootout fight with a power friggin bolt at force 4.. what mage in
his right mind would do that? And then when someone comes up with an
example of a normal spell use that would waste the samurai, you go,
Naa, naa, it has no bearing, and besides, the samurai would win
initiative anyway.(Yeah, I snipped that part) Think a little before
typing, because you can perfectly well figure out the next logical
step in *that* armsrace. The mage will always be able to stay one
step ahead of the samurai. Disregard, physical mask, control actions,
influence could all be pieces in that game; several moves against
which there is few countermoves except for another magician.
What, there isn't an appropriate spell? The magician can MAKE one.
My opinion is that F/2 coupled with fetishes and exclusive spells
leave drain too easy to resist. Make the disadvantages with using
fetishes and exclusive spells real, then it's okay enough, but as it
is, it's flawed. Now you can argue that F drain is too much; but
both you and I know that drain of a force 6 spell can be resisted as
if it was force 2, so your arguments sound a bit hollow in my ears.
But that's ok enough, since a force 11 spell can, with F/2, then be
resisted against a base drain TN of 3. Now if that isn't 'major mojo'
reduced a bit too easily, then nothing is. And of course if
exclusivity and fetishes was not part of the picture, then a drain of
F would be far too much; F/2 would then be fair.
It's late, I'm tired. Be kind.
--
Fade
"It's better to burn out, than to fade away!"
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 04:47:05 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
In-Reply-To: <199707010306.WAA06738@*******.fgi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In article <199707010306.WAA06738@*******.fgi.net>, TopCat
<topcat@***.NET> rambled on endlessly about Runner's Attitudes
Excuse me interjecting here old chap, but I have a small question for
you.
Totally ignoring the fascinating conversation that is once again
expanding between yourself and Paul, you use the word "Megacorp" as if
it is some magical mantra that will explain everything.
Could you possibly explain to me what your definition of "Megacorp" is.
As I see it, and I could be wrong, you appear to view them as a single
entity, something like Weyland Yutani (Alien) Tyrrel (Bladerunner), OCP
(Robocop) - or do you follow the more realistic vision of a Megacorp as
a multitudinous conglomeration of corporations, which is, as far as I
know more accurate.
The reason I ask, is that your answer depends very much on how seriously
I take anything else you have to say on the subject. It's just a little
clarification, and I'm sure you won't mind explaining it to someone who
may have missed your earlier definition.
The main reason I ask, is that as far as I know Paul views megacorps as
multiple entities formed into a single named unit by a Board of
Governors, much like the corporations around today, for example the
giant Kingfisher group, which holds a wide variety of companies under
it's wings. You appear to treat them as single uniits, wielding vast
power. If that's the case, then it is safe to assume that you and Paul
are never going to agree. Which makes your arguments pointless, albeit
interesting. :)
--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:59:02 +0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707032244.SAA07469@******.san.uc.edu>
On 3 Jul 97 at 18:44, NightLife wrote:
> >My point is no other character type faces danger doing what they do
> >as you insist a mage should.
>
> Wrong! A decker can get hosed by black IC, a sammy/merc can get
> slaughtered in a gun battle, the rigger can get shot down just as
> easily. Any archetype faces certain dangers inherent in their job.
> There's no reason why the mage shouldn't have some danger to his
> profession as well.
Yea, but can a sammy die or go unconscious just from using his
cyberware? Nope. Can a rigger die or go unconscious flying around
minature drone killing machines? Nope. Will a decker die or go
unconscious just from casual use of his deck? Nope. Will a mage take
damage from casual use of magic? He shouldn't. Under your way he
does.
Tell me Nightlife, just what is balanced about that?
--
==DREKHEAD=======================================================
drekhead@***.net --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html ---
=================================================================
=================================================================
There cannot be a crisis today; my schedule is already full.
=================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:07:29 +0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707032300.TAA08552@******.san.uc.edu>
On 3 Jul 97 at 19:00, NightLife wrote:
> Point A never mind. Point B No it's not. A group of sammies with
> firearms are supposed to wreak this kind of damage. Without their
> guns and cyber they're close to equal terms with the gangers. The
> mage however even if hes' named has a really good chance of taking
> them all out with a area effect spell.
Nightlife I have come to the conclusion that if you don't like magic
in your game, play CP2020. It doesn't have any.
--
==DREKHEAD=======================================================
drekhead@***.net --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html ---
=================================================================
=================================================================
Ethernet (n): something used to catch the etherbunny
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:01:38 +0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
In-Reply-To: <199707032246.SAA07568@******.san.uc.edu>
On 3 Jul 97 at 18:46, NightLife wrote:
> >GM's have to deal with whiner's no matter what, unless you are lucky.
> >Again, that is no reason to change the rules.
>
> You play more than you gm don't you? Aside from physical violence
> it's not that easy to shut someone up when they've think they've got
> something in black and white and it's official.
Actually, nope, I have always GM'ed. Never had the occassion to play,
except in PBEM games. Whiners usually get shone to the door if they
disrupt play too much. There is no reason to tolerate that or any
disruption of your game.
--
==DREKHEAD=======================================================
drekhead@***.net --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html ---
=================================================================
=================================================================
As a computer, I find your faith in technology amusing.
=================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:24:06 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-version: 1.0
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>Yea, but can a sammy die or go unconscious just from using his
>cyberware?
Sure check out the move by wire system and cybermancy. Nice try.
>Nope. Can a rigger die or go unconscious flying around
>minature drone killing machines?
Yep. Any bad weather conditions, simple malfunction or how about a bit of
jamming ecm to really ruin his day. Does a mage have to play tens maybe even
hundreds of thousands of credits to get his recon no I didn't think so.
Unless he summons a elemental in the double digits it's a heck of a lot cheaper.
> Nope. Will a decker die or go
>unconscious just from casual use of his deck?
Yep just browse the wrong random host.
> Nope. Will a mage take
>damage from casual use of magic? He shouldn't. Under your way he
>does.
Is the casual use of magic tossing for 6 or better spells? How does actually
having to worry about slinging a spell or force 6 equal damage stun isn't
damage it's stun. If you toss one spell over your magic rating then you
should already know what your getting yourself into.
>Tell me Nightlife, just what is balanced about that?
Sling the major mojo take the risks just like every other profession except
fot the rocker who can get themselves killed it they stir up to much
trouble. It was a nice try really.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:26:39 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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>Nightlife I have come to the conclusion that if you don't like magic
>in your game, play CP2020. It doesn't have any.
You can have your conclusions. I just want a mage that has to try. But as I
can see once again this week somebody's telling me I can't have MY opinion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:28:30 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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>Actually, nope, I have always GM'ed. Never had the occassion to play,
>except in PBEM games. Whiners usually get shone to the door if they
>disrupt play too much. There is no reason to tolerate that or any
>disruption of your game.
Later when he's back I'll have my co-gm fill you in on how much I've had to
tolerate lately.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:46:43 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
You could always require a mage to expend a simple action to ready a fetish
before being able to use it. That should cut down on fetish abuse.
As for exclusivity, none of the mages I have ever run or seen in my game
have gone that route. Define allocating spell defense dice as a magical
activity?
Just some ideas
--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers.
-Leonard Brandwein
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:39:35 +0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707032317.TAA09776@******.san.uc.edu>
On 3 Jul 97 at 19:17, NightLife wrote:
> At 07:09 PM 7/3/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >How about this for limiting the effectiveness of magicians:
>>delete Magic Pool.
>
> I like that idea.
Of course you do. I bet your all for taking away sammie's Combat Pool
too. No? I thought not...
--
==DREKHEAD=======================================================
drekhead@***.net --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html ---
=================================================================
=================================================================
Be nice to your kids. They'll choose your nursing home.
=================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:42:51 +0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707040000.TAA19167@********.mcit.com>
On 3 Jul 97 at 16:36, Caric wrote:
> | >Everyone faces death by bullet, to sammies face death by recoil?
> |
> | Not everyone faces death by a bullet. As for the recoil does it kill a
> mage
> | any faster?
>
> So characters in your game don't ever get shot at? Do they stay
> inside? (This is an honest question.) Recoil doesn't kill anyone,
> that's my point. A sam can deal out 18D damage with no side effect
> to resist, but ammo expenditures. Can a mage do that with magic?
Yea, Caric, a mage can deal out 18D by stacking spells. But
the drain from that will probably frag him, even at F/2. See
Nightlife? The system does work.
--
==DREKHEAD=======================================================
drekhead@***.net --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html ---
=================================================================
=================================================================
Be nice to your kids. They'll choose your nursing home.
=================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:52:14 +0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707040209.WAA18980@******.san.uc.edu>
On 3 Jul 97 at 22:09, NightLife wrote:
> serious unless he rolls down. Aww too bad. Who get to wake up later
> in a hospital the unconsious guy or the one already wounded. In the
> case that they were both fresh the unconsious guys no worse off and
> the seriously guy gets to fight on. Same difference either way.
Nightlife, if I came up with a weapon or piece of cyberware that
dealt out Serious Physical damage, but each time you use it you take
Serious or Deadly Stun, would your sammy use it? No way! Then why is
that okay in your opinion for mages?
I just don't get it...
--
==DREKHEAD=======================================================
drekhead@***.net --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html ---
=================================================================
=================================================================
Does fuzzy logic tickle?
=================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:53:38 +0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <970703221221_59432612@*******.mail.aol.com>
On 3 Jul 97 at 22:12, Duncan McNeill-Burton wrote:
> no, but the mage doesn't have to lug around an assault cannon to use
> his magic...
True, but a sammy doesn't drop unconscious when he fires it either.
--
==DREKHEAD=======================================================
drekhead@***.net --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html ---
=================================================================
=================================================================
COFFEE.EXE Missing - Insert Cup and Press Any Key
=================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:01:05 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
>Of course you do. I bet your all for taking away sammie's Combat Pool
>too. No? I thought not...
Actually I'm for removal of all the pools if you have to ask. My fixer has
more combat pool dice than he has a right to because to the ceberal booster
and the encephalon. As for any thing else you're getting persoanl if you
want to keep taking shots at me take to private e-mail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:03:39 +0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707040326.XAA23255@******.san.uc.edu>
On 3 Jul 97 at 23:26, NightLife wrote:
> >Nightlife I have come to the conclusion that if you don't like magic
> >in your game, play CP2020. It doesn't have any.
>
> You can have your conclusions. I just want a mage that has to try.
> But as I can see once again this week somebody's telling me I can't
> have MY opinion.
You can have your opinion. I just don't want it to be the rule,
because I don't agree with it. And neither did FASA when they wrote
F/2 into the 2nd edition.
--
==DREKHEAD=======================================================
drekhead@***.net --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html ---
=================================================================
=================================================================
Demons are a Ghouls best Friend.
=================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:03:39 +0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
In-Reply-To: <199707040328.XAA23318@******.san.uc.edu>
On 3 Jul 97 at 23:28, NightLife wrote:
> >Actually, nope, I have always GM'ed. Never had the occassion to play,
> >except in PBEM games. Whiners usually get shone to the door if they
> >disrupt play too much. There is no reason to tolerate that or any
> >disruption of your game.
>
> Later when he's back I'll have my co-gm fill you in on how much I've
> had to tolerate lately.
>
Had to? Why? You don't live on an island. Get rid of the problem and
find new players. If the whiner wants to play with your group, he
will learn to keep his mouth shut.
--
==DREKHEAD=======================================================
drekhead@***.net --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html ---
=================================================================
=================================================================
Does fuzzy logic tickle?
=================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:14:01 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
>Nightlife, if I came up with a weapon or piece of cyberware that
>dealt out Serious Physical damage, but each time you use it you take
>Serious or Deadly Stun, would your sammy use it? No way! Then why is
>that okay in your opinion for mages?
Because it takes a piece of gear or cyber to do something like that. Onto of
that most spells aren't going to deal out unless the dice hate the mage that
paticular day. Most reducing tests will come of to a light worst case
scenario. That's after something pretty spetacular like healing a person
who's almost dead back up to fighting form. As for me playing a sammie I've
only played a sammy once, ex-military for a couple of years after that
currently I'm playing believe it or not a FIXER. I hire street sam these
days not play them. As for cyber/bio that's detrimental look no further than
the move by wire systems and sythacardium, adrenal pump, etc.. do you want
me to go on?
>I just don't get it...
Oh well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:15:10 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
>True, but a sammy doesn't drop unconscious when he fires it either.
And neither does the mage unless the universe hates the player that
paticular day.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:11:42 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Greg Childress <greg@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
In-Reply-To: <199707040006.UAA30087@********.mcit.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:55 PM 7/3/97 -0400, Caric wrote:
>| > Why doesn't everyone just use the Increased Lethality Rules for
>| >drain, listed in the Shadowrun, 2nd edition rule book, IF it suits their
>| >campaign, instead of trying to enforce a system wide moritorium on what
>| >drain should be? I thought that's what they were there for.
>| >
>| >Victor
>|
>| Because we're discussing the rules for SRIII
>
>Because Greg, Steve K. asked how we felt about the drain of spells and what
>the "default" should be F/2 or F. Since then Nightlife and Myself among
>others have been discussing it, with what I would like to believe are
>legitimate points on both sides...Steve asked for reasons and gosh durnit
>Nightlife and I gave 'em some. :)
>
Huh?
I thought I was involved in this discussion already, are my posts getting
through?
I was just clarifying for Victor why we were discussing this; or more
accurately why I am involved in discussing this. In cases like the F
vs.F/2 debate I would normally take the position that it doesn't matter,
use whatever makes you happy, then I wouldn't have to stress over
nightlife's insistence that mages take damage every time they cast a spell
;-> That's why, although I've been on the list for like two years now I
hardly ever post.
Geez I'm feeling sorta invisible...
<greg>
(s)He seems to have an invisible touch,
yeah!
P.S. I just got my draft of the SR Origins
tournament and, hoo boy...
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:23:28 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
>Had to? Why?
I was trying to be a nice guy.
> You don't live on an island. Get rid of the problem and
>find new players.
That's what I had to do.
>If the whiner wants to play with your group, he
>will learn to keep his mouth shut.
Actually he didn't he organized a little conspiracy behind my back
thankfully my loyalists made me aware of this before it was to late.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:27:10 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Greg Childress <greg@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707032306.TAA08921@******.san.uc.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:06 PM 7/3/97 -0400, Nightlife wrote:
>>And you are assuming these force 2 or 3 spells are gonna actually hit
>>anything...any decent sammie is going to shrug these off like so many
>>flies.
>
>I'm not talking about force 2 and 3 spells. The sammies gonna fall over from
>a force 6 spells anyway. The mage should atleast break a sweat in doing just
>that.
>
>>A buddy with a medkit.
>
>With three dice wow I'm impressed. You keep throwing in gear to balnce the
>equation. I'm talking buck naked.
But WHY are you talking buck-naked?!
So what, a mage is better because his power is intrinsic... the same could
be said of an accountant but with the added advantage of rarely getting
involved in gunfights
The issue is F vs F/2 for drain calculation NOT the old "my sammie is
better than your mage!" or the even more boring "your mage shouldn't be
more powerful than my sammie!" the latter is even more ridiculous in a
cross campaign context when there is really NO WAY to determine if the mage
is unbalancing. FYI I play in a great campaign here in Baltimore that
involves a mage, a shaman, two physads, a pacifist decker,a combat monster
refrigerator and a docWagon Paramedic with a fear of guns. All are great
characters, all are useful in almost every situation and no one has
complained. But so what? That's my party the issue is what the default
rule should be.
>
>>The guys who don't go unconscious have a chance to help those that have, or
>>those that have died, or run away screaming...that's the point. Once you
>>go down for any reason you are useless for the rest of the encounter.
>
>Let me steer this away from combat for a second or two If you've lost your
>just as screwed as those taken prisoner. They have a chance top eascape not
>the dead guy. The next arguementhopefully will go beyond combat because your
>not gonna change my mind or alter my views.
>
You restricted it to combat in the first place. Combat or no, Drain that
is damn near statistically impossible to resist is just silly. It worked
marginally well in SRI due to the use of Sorcery as resist and the varying
staging. It wouldn't work in SRIII without major rule revamping.
<greg>
revamping... (giggle) I just got an image
of Pacino in a cape: "They keep
pulling me back in!"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:30:45 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> I would normally take the position that it doesn't matter,
>use whatever makes you happy, then I wouldn't have to stress over
>nightlife's insistence that mages take damage every time they cast a spell
>;->
At last a smiley. No I'm stressing drain not damage. Stun doesn't equal damage.
That's why, although I've been on the list for like two years now I
>hardly ever post.
Hmm sounds like a complex. ;-) BTW I just heard a great line on the tube.
Greg don't worry we'll cover for you you can plead insanity.
Yeah I hear Van Gogh did some of his best work in a asylum.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:36:32 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Return of MC23
On Tue, 1 Jul 1997 17:04:01 -0700 Caric <caric@********.COM> writes:
>MC23 and TopCat...can you say oil and water? I think you can. :)
>
>This is gonna be fun!
Ummm...Caric? How do you define 'fun'?
:)
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:36:32 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
Figured I'd go ahead and give a few more comments while I was at this:)
My personal pet peeves with SR:
What does all this stuff do???
-Three fourths of the the cyberware isn't really explained as to how it
does what it does. Wired Reflexes is my current favorite example. What
about the blood filter? How on earth do you filter *everything* that goes
into someone's blood? :) I guess I just like to have answers.
Lots of people have problems with the binding, I've seen this, too. I've
watched four different people buy copies of the SR softcover, only for
three of the four to have the covers falling off and pages falling out
within months. The one guy whose book isn't suffering this problem is the
guy who had the covers and spine laminated (via contact paper) to protect
them.
Sample adventure. I don't know how many times I've wished to have had a
sample adventure in the main book I coul look at, just for reference, if
nothing else.
Staging. I've seen some of the stuff on the staging from SR1, and it
really looks to me like it could provide mmore variety and realism to the
game. It'd be nice to at least provide alternate rules for the use of
staging.
Allergies. Nuisance allergies shouldn't give any bonuses at all, and the
allergies rule needs to be better described. As it is, it is *totally*
vague and *very* open to abuse by munchy players (voice of experience
here, having seen players create characters with something like 20+ extra
attribute points with nothing except nuisance allergies - and no, they
didn't tell me first).
Grounding. Of course:)
What does all this stuff look like? We've got pics for heavy pistols,
HMGs, and ligt pistols, but what about everything else? Just how big *is*
an assault cannon, anyway?
Lethality rules. Leave them as-is. Be sure, however, that they're a
little more obvious, and that references are made for people who might
want to use them.
More metas. Leave as optional. It's a good idea to leave it in as a
possible idea. It might be a good idea to put some of this stuff in a
sort of 'GM's Chapter' of the book.
Negotiation, Etiquette, Languages, et al. Put the rules for social skills
in a more prominent fashion. Don't toss them in the miscellaneous
section, make sure to emphasive that SR isn't just about blowing things
up.
Encumbrance rules. ditto. Might put these as guidelines in the character
creation section, it avoids things like characters lugging around 100kg
of C-12 at a time.
Color plates. I like 'em, but they seem to be among the first things to
fall out of the books I've seen other people abuse. So, either put them
all together in the middle of the book (like in every other SR Sourcebook
I've seen), or space them out, one at a time throughout (like in Seattle
Sourcebook).
Maps. Lots of people want more of a map, I'd wouldn't be against it
myself. I'm curious to see just where the Heavenherders founded Azania
and all:)
Intro fiction. I think Plus ca Change was a good story, because it
involved most of the major archetypes and it wasn't very hard to figure
out what Nameless and company were.
Decker comments. The player will probably see lots of these as they play,
might as well get 'em started early. "And So It Came To Pass..." might be
a good place to put these (and get listmember names in <hint, hint> :)
Let the player get familiar with people like Capt. Chaos, The Smiling
Bandit, Bung and the other Shadowland people early on.
Timeline. An updated, complete timeline would be really nice. See the
previous comment:)
Listmember names:) I'm sure lots of us are feeling pretty darn envious of
a certain group of four or five listmembers right now (I know I am:)
Heck, I'd be happy to find my name in the background as graffiti on a
wall in a picture in the book:) Just something to point to and say "This
is why *I* am your GM" ;)
Websites. If you do that, pick only a couple, things that are a) stable
and b) well-known. The Shadowrun Archive, Dave Hyatt's Shadowland and The
Shadowrun Webring are all good ideas. Definitely include a URL for FASA's
website. My website would not be a good idea (I think it's rather nice,
but it's not *that* stable, and I wouldn't call it well-known)
Sourcebook updates/Errata sheets. I don't know if any of these will be
necessary, but I want to find out about any mistakes in my books, even if
they are corrected in a later printing. I don't mind if FASA corrects it
later, I would just like for them to be willing to let me know, anyway,
so that I can make those corrections to the copy of the book that *I*
have. Put both Sourcebook Updates (unless they list *massive* amounts of
gear, etc stats - like the ones for the SSC) and Erratas on the SR
website, probably also include in printings of the Shadowland magazine.
Critter stats. I think I'm hearing that both of the critter's books are
out-of-print. Could we at least get a listing of stats/descriptions
somewhere (not necessarily in SR3). What about things like the
Loup-Garou? Or the Talis Cat? Or Dzoo-Noo-Qua?
Define 'cyberpunk'. Very few people who will pick up this game *really*
know what it means. And define by example. Not everyone necessarily
connects written definitions with words when they use them. I, for one,
tend to connect abstract concepts to them instead.
Keep the Twenty Questions, but put them near the beginning of the
character creation chapter, rather than the end. One thing that I have to
say I liked about Vampire was that you defined your characters
personality before you defined his stats.
Tables. The copy of Aerotech I have from - whew! - too long ago (8th or
9th grade, anyway) had all the tables in two different places, on the
back cover and right next to the fighter sheets. You could barely read
them, but they were there.
Character Sheets. I don't know anyone who *wants* to fold their book
cover flat to make copies of the character sheet, at least not when the
book is that big. Could you make them perforated or something? Not
necessarily removable, but perhaps more accessible. Especially for the
hardcover (that I have *got* to get:)
What all does the rating 6 cap apply to at character creation? It doesn't
apply to MPCP, for instance, is there anything else?
Shapeshifters are, IMO, one of the most poorly defined things in the
entire book. Lots could be done with them, if we could ever get some
positive stats nailed down on them. And what about the wolf-man form
(Crinos to those of you who play Werewolf) that has become prevalent in
myth? Vamps could also use some more definition for starting players and
GMs.
The trode setup talked about briefly in VR2 and SR2 (Matrix section,
third page, first column, about halfway down, I think). How well does it
work?
BTL chips?
Place archetypes? Could we get these put in with a revised GM's screen?
Spirits of the Fiery Firmament - I know these appear in the Tir Na nOg
book, will they be listed in SR3? Will we get to find out about a fifth
elemental for us hermetics:) (Wood, please, please, please, let it be the
Wood elemental, if only so I don't have to do my own conversions:)
Computer Theory - What's it do?
Will Elementalists be included in SR3's Magic Chapter(s:)?
Negamages - ehh...sorta dealt with in the Companion, not really
necessary, but you might hint to that sort of thing.
Gear - at least add a few new things and expand on some old. Also, bring
back Program Carriers. They look *real* interesting.
Could we at least get basic rules for modifying vehicles in SR3? Things
like adding on firmpoints and hardpoints, etc. (How *do* you disguise a
hardpoint - mounted LMG on a Westwind?)
Some discussion on what realism is in SR. And at least nominal
explanation of the game background, aside from timeline and intro
fiction. I know of a guy who GMs every so often without any idea
whatsoever of the game's background. Also, define 'power-gamer' and
'munchkin' for new players, and explain why such ideas are generally
discouraged. A little discussion on what can and can't be done with SR's
tech level, for instance.
What about the Astral/Physical stuff? What can an Astral body affect on
the Physical plane without grounding? What stuff can and can't be
grounded through (list, please, for less confusion:)?
Art. Tap your *really* good artists for this book. Karl Waller, Jeff
Laubenstein, Mike Nelson, Joel Biske, (Bradstreet, if you can get him),
Elmore, Jim Nelson are all _very_ good, to a greater or lesser extent.
Ones to avoid (IMO) are Knutson (Okay, but I think I can do as well) and
possibly Bergting. Bergting's okay, but his drawings tend to be real
rough, two color things. They worked well with Bug City, because they
projected the gritty kind of feel that was necessary. However, the art in
this book could make or break it, because a new player doesn't have time
to browse and consider the rules system in the book store (assuming they
don't shrink wrap the copies there like they do in mine). I know that
strong, good art can be used to j
Again, like someone else said, Kudos! Keep up the good work and make this
version as high-quality or better than previous books.
--
-Canthros, the shapeshifter-mage who's still hoping to find his name in
Target: UCAS by some weird fluke:)
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:36:32 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
On Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:47:42 -0500 "Faux Pas (Thomas)"
<thomas@*******.COM> writes:
<<(how many links are still out there that go to Doctor Doom's Defunct
Dark Tower?)>>
Actually, by my guess, Doc Doom's Tower is still there, it just hasn't
been updated recently, it may not even still be maintained, but it is
still there (not unlike a previous copy of my page, which should be
deleted as of three months ago - but isn't). For example, try hitting
http://members.gnn.com/lenoj/johns.htm
I'm betting you'll find a copy of my page that is now more than six
months out of date and should have been deleted long ago.
<<Rather, have a Shadowrun Links page on the www.FASA.com website that's
updated every so often, and mention the FASA web site in the new book.
It would be much more easier to keep that current, rather than realizing
that in the sixth printing of SR3 that nine of the ten URLs mentioned in
the "Shadowrun Web Sites" section all come back with "404 - Not Found"
messages.>>
But that would require more maintenance on FASA's SR website than they
seem willing to put into it. I'll admit that FASA's site is slicker than
mine, but I really think that I put more into keeping it up than they do,
some days. <shrug> For some reason, the web doesn't seem to be a high
priority for the SR people, even though SR is the one game FASA publishes
that has any relation to the current Matrix (aka the Internet).
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:36:32 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: B>]#
On Tue, 1 Jul 1997 20:08:28 -0400 MC23 <mc23@**********.COM> writes:
><poltergeist>
> I'm baaaaaack!!!
></poltergeist>
Oh, dear. And the list was just getting back to normal (alright, so
TopCat got here before that could happen. Even so...)
:)
--
-Canthros:)
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:19:05 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
>You can have your opinion. I just don't want it to be the rule,
>because I don't agree with it. And neither did FASA when they wrote
>F/2 into the 2nd edition.
And I'm supposed to care why? Steve asked for opinions I gave mine even
Caric didn't try to brow beat me into submission. I gave my reason and so
did he. You took it to the personal nature. Must be some weird lunar thing
going on around.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:50:51 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
>But WHY are you talking buck-naked?!
BECAUSE that was my original example.
>So what, a mage is better because his power is intrinsic... the same could
>be said of an accountant but with the added advantage of rarely getting
>involved in gunfights
We're not talking about accountants. And yes that's basically what I've been
trying to say.
>The issue is F vs F/2 for drain calculation NOT the old "my sammie is
>better than your mage!" or the even more boring "your mage shouldn't be
>more powerful than my sammie!" the latter is even more ridiculous in a
>cross campaign context when there is really NO WAY to determine if the age
>is unbalancing.
Umm excuse me but when others starting using combat as the main focus that's
how I responded.
> FYI I play in a great campaign here in Baltimore that
>involves a mage, a shaman, two physads, a pacifist decker,a combat monster
>refrigerator and a docWagon Paramedic with a fear of guns.
Nice to know.
>You restricted it to combat in the first place. Combat or no, Drain that
>is damn near statistically impossible to resist is just silly. It worked
>marginally well in SRI due to the use of Sorcery as resist and the varying
>staging. It wouldn't work in SRIII without major rule revamping.
Actually Caric took it there first. As for silly SR1 mages actually has to
try to sling the major mojo unlike SR2 mages who have it all and the kitchen
sink too.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:53:09 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION! (force points)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
David Buehrer once dared to write,
>MC23 wrote:
>|
>| Force Points at Character Generation. (Like every one on the list
>| didn't expect me to bring this point up). Which adepts get them in the
>| first place (1st edition spell casting adepts only ruling or the not
>| mentioned approach in 2nd). Also what are the only things these points
>| are allowed to be spent on and if there are any optional rulings for it
>| as well.
>
>While you've been gone I've been re-reading the rules and found some
>references to this subject.
We've gone through this before, Grimoire 1st edition clearly states
no, 2nd rulebook forgets to consider it when it added the option
spending of force points on bonding, Shadowrun Companion has it in the
point based CharGen, and FASA says officially PhysAds get none. Why
people can still overlook all this is beyond me.
Trivia on 1st edition Archetypes. Those Characters with spell locks
were bonded with them using starting force points. Do the math for proof.
Argument note: From this precedent you can't say that FASA never
considered using those force points for anything but spells when Grimoire
1st was written.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:53:36 -0700
Reply-To: granite@**.net
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <granite@**.net>
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Organization: Granite Forge Productions
Subject: Re: [GC] Plans and other foolishness
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
>........What more do you want??
> Ummm...how about a place where the food isn't really expensive and doesn't
> suck, and isn't over crowded with all the _other_ people who are going
> because "it's called the safehouse".
Details..details... ;)
> Man, now I'm gonna hafta find out what the password is so I don't have to
> do something stupid all night
Hmm..That would be a good idea..How does one usually do this anyway??
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
===============================================
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:53:36 -0700
Reply-To: granite@**.net
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <granite@**.net>
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Organization: Granite Forge Productions
Subject: Re: SR II
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Hey..Haven't see your sig around in a while..Have you been gone..or
have I just not been paying very close attention??
> Can we all say:
>
> FAB?
SSSHHhhhh!!!!
I can clear that one up for you if you want..Let me know and I'll
forward you the pertenant messages..Which I keep close at hand to
crush this debate as quickly as it can start... ;)
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
===============================================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:50:11 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Greg Childress <greg@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707040209.WAA18980@******.san.uc.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:09 PM 7/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>No, I think I will try it... if you don't mind
>
>Actually I do mind. Adding on damage possibilities doesn't even change what
>I orginally said. You're altering the argument to suit your needs as it
>needs to change. My arguement was buck nacked and without gear fresh without
>wound now you go and alter the situation.
<angry retort> who cares how you "feel" about it </angry retort>
WHY was your argument buck naked and without gear? I just don't get it.
As for me altering the situation, i didn't know that anyone had declared a
"situation" I thought we were discussing the F vs. F/2 question posed by
Steve. I think it is a ridiculous sanction against magic and you think
that it is a much needed repair to an unbalanced system (I believe, if I am
misrepresenting you than I apologize.)
Of course I'm bringing up new twists... as are you. That's how any
discussion of a major rule change has to proceed.
>
>>What is the target number for a serious stun wound?
>> Why, it's +3, just like the physical wound
>
>Are bleeding to death a a serious stun I thought not.
No but my point is that it doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference in
the middle of a firefight
>
>>How about the initiative adjustment?
>> Well, imagine that -3, just like physical damage
>
>Awww too bad take a stim patch and deal with it.
>
>> Sure, one box an hour; "Excuse me, angry SWAT guys, could you give
>me an
>>hour to rest please?"
>
>Sure after your budy takes 4 - 6 weeks in intensive care to get back on his
>feet.
Or gets healed by a mage... wait who'd risk it with the potential for
tremendous Drain.
>
>>Still there ARE stim patches...
>> "The magician makes a Magic test against a target number equal to
the
>> patch's rating. If the test fails, the magician must
>follow the
>> procedure for possible essence loss as if he had taken a Deadly
wound"
>> BBB pg 250
>>
>> Yeah, that's just great, no worries about stun damage now
>
>Sure do it rating one four or five times.
then it comes back +4 or +5 in a few minutes, great solution. Anyway the
arguement is whether magic is unbalancing. What if your character (I
wonder if you play a sammie) was given the choice of losing a point of
Firearms skill every time he got in a battle? Would you be as nonchalant
about that?
>
>> "You slump to the ground just as a grenade roles into the room"
>> "Well, I'm just damn glad I'm only unconscious!"
>
>Cheap shot. Of course if the guy is already wounded might be a little
>unhappy as he gets shreadded into jerky by another wounbd onto of what he
>already has and the unconsious guy gets it with serious unless he rolls
>down. Aww too bad. Who get to wake up later in a hospital the unconsious guy
>or the one already wounded. In the case that they were both fresh the
>unconsious guys no worse off and the seriously guy gets to fight on. Same
>difference either way.
>
No more so than your continued use of brilliant arguments like "Don't even
try x" or "No your wrong"
doesn't matter anyway the point is that the mage is useless for the rest of
the encounter and the low level spells that he was forced to use by the
drain codes rendered him completely ineffective before he kissed the ground
except for making the GM roll some dice.
<greg>
No I won't back down... Gonna stand my
ground
No I... won't... back...down.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Love is not something you can | Greg Childress 0 O
put chains on and throw into | greg@***.edu >
a lake. That's called Houdini | pcstud3@***.edu ----
Love is liking someone a lot. | http://jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu/~child_gp
--------------------------------------------------------------------
When you've seen one non-sequitur, the price of tea in China.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:48:17 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
In-Reply-To: <199707031659.LAA04334@********.mcit.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Is it just me that's seeing the pattern here, or does it seem that every
time a rigger black book comes out, within a short amount of time a new
edition of the core rules comes out.
Hmmmm
Also, how many books will have "updates" published, like the grimoire was
the last time.
Jaymz
/-justin@****.mcp.com----------------------jbell@****.mcp.com--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:53:31 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: SR 3rd Ed. comments and questions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970703211145.00c65060@****.interware.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>That would SERIOUSLY affect it's marketability. Think about it.
>>Not ALL players and GMs are computer active. Not all have computers, and of
>>those that do, not all have CD ROM drives.
>
>Read it again. Supplemental. Not required. Think of it as a bonus. Well,
>thinking of this, why wait until sr3? :)
>
How did TSR's product fare?
>>(I have a computer, but no CD ROM. And the chances of getting a CD ROM are
>>slim, because it'll only be capable of viewing text/graphics, not run the
>>programs..... It's not a PC or Apple y'know...)
>
>html?
HTML is too easily distributable, it would have to be something that cannot
be transferred to another medium.
If it were HTML it could EASILY be put on the web somewhere, and people
could download it to local hard drives, burn it to CD, etc.
Jaymz
/-justin@****.mcp.com----------------------jbell@****.mcp.com--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:56:55 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
In-Reply-To: <199707031733.NAA07414@www.ctghub.com>;
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 01:34 PM 7/3/97 +0000, you wrote:
>On 3 Jul 97 at 13:12, Steve Kenson wrote:
>
>> Listmembers getting their names in the book: I doubt the rulebook will
>> contain much in the way of "fiction," but I will try and keep
listmember
>> names in mind when writing examples for the game rules : )
>
>Yay!
>
>Steve, would it be possible, maybe in an appendix section, a list of
>all the fine Shadowrun related websites? I sure Paolo and others
>would appreciate the nod to their efforts. Most importantly, how
>about a reference to this list? We could be your support group :).
>
I see a problem with this idea.
What of those web sites will be around in 5 years?
SRII was pubbed 5 years ago.
Jaymz
/-justin@****.mcp.com----------------------jbell@****.mcp.com--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 01:01:10 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: New GM seeking more stuff :)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hello again, folks. :)
I have spent the last couple of weeks digesting all the useful input from
my inquiry about GM advice for a new GM. I greatly appreciate all the
positive and helpful input I received from so many of you. If you haven't
already gotten a thank you from me, well....thank you! :) If you have
already gotten one, you can have another...they're not that expensive to
make. ;)
There are still a few things I could use some input on. One of which is
building a good pool of NPCs. I can see how it could take forever to do
this, and I am not good enough with the entire SR system yet to do them all
on the fly. Thus, I am asking that if any of you have any colorful
contacts/NPCs you like to use or have had fun with in the past, PLEASE send
them to me. I will help immortilize them by giving them life in my
campaign. :) Also, I will be as true as possible to their personalities.
After all, it's the personalities I am really after. If I just wanted
stats, I could photocopy some of the pages from a few books. :)
Another thing I need are some good ideas for businesses/clubs/decker
hangouts/fronts for the black market, etc. I have the Seattle Sourcebook
(my campaign is set in Seattle). However, I would like more input on
styles and flavors (not just stats).
Even though my creative juices are flowing, I am having a hard time coming
up with a slew of NPCs and places to go. I know that I can wing some of
the basic street types that the runners come across, but I will have to
start coming up with a ton of contacts really soon. I am afraid. ;) (I
think my 13+ pages of house rules that I just compiled took a lot outta me.
;) Many of the rules weren't even thought of until I scoured the books
and decided what I just didn't like, etc.)
The other thing I could REALLY use is some input on creating a truly useful
GM screen. I mean, there are a bazillion tables and charts in SR! I just
can't imagine being able to fit them all on anything smaller than the broad
side of a barn. ;) If anyone has any files they can send me, or a URL
that I can check out, that would be great! :)
In fact, that goes for all of it...if you want to spare the list, feel free
to e-mail me suggestions, files, URLs, links, etc. at vanyel@*******.net
Again, I thank you all for your help. :) My only wish is to make this
campaign as interesting for my players as a couple of my past GMs have done
for me. :) It's so hard to find a good GM that is creative and flexible!
I don't want to fall to the wayside as a railroader with cardboard NPCs and
unimaginative runs.
Thanks!
Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:10:15 -0800
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Skye Comstock <bilbo@****.NWLINK.COM>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
In-Reply-To: <19970704.003504.3343.9.lobo1@****.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
><<Rather, have a Shadowrun Links page on the www.FASA.com website that's
>updated every so often, and mention the FASA web site in the new book.
>It would be much more easier to keep that current, rather than realizing
>that in the sixth printing of SR3 that nine of the ten URLs mentioned in
>the "Shadowrun Web Sites" section all come back with "404 - Not
Found"
>messages.>>
>
>But that would require more maintenance on FASA's SR website than they
>seem willing to put into it. I'll admit that FASA's site is slicker than
>mine, but I really think that I put more into keeping it up than they do,
>some days. <shrug> For some reason, the web doesn't seem to be a high
>priority for the SR people, even though SR is the one game FASA publishes
>that has any relation to the current Matrix (aka the Internet).
FASA's site has some really huge and annoying .gif's! ;) I've always
wished that they'd tone them down size-wize or making them into
.jpg's. The site has come a long way since they first made it, though.
It'd be nice to have a volunteer do the page (I'll do it!) and
update it weekly/bi-weekly with new information and stuff.
BTW, is it me, or is the first page (srhome.html) the home of a
really weird background? It comes out puke green/grey on my
screen and looks really weird.
I actually do love their site because I can get the release schedule
but it could have a lot more "customer interaction."
-Skye, "What do you mean, Target: UCAS is still being shipped! Damn!
And I was going to tell you a secret, too!"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 01:11:50 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: SR3 Debate
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
TopCat once dared to write,
>True enough... and on this side, how about the 3rd edition suggestions going
>straight to Mr. Kenson instead of going to the list? This way, many hours
>of needless argumentative posting can be avoided. For example, one person
>says drain should be F one person says drain should be F/2, they argue for
>days over it and nothing gets accomplished except a lot of posts of "I'm
>right" "No, I'm right". If they go straight to Steve, then we avoid
this
>problem and suggestions actually get to be suggestions instead of debates.
I like reviewing things through debate. With feedback the
troublesome issues can be properly viewed or, more to my style, ripped
apart to see what's broken so it can be rebuilt into a "stronger" idea,
as it were. I would have loved to have gotten into some type review on
the companion before it hit. That book does make me wary of what could
happen with the new rules. <shudder>
Now the trick would be to recognize when a topic has gone from a
debate to just flogging a dead horse.
Besides, I hate the idea that people could be sending in silly ideas
that could get published without me ever having a chance for countering
it.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:11:04 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: ping
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
is my message getting through?
/-justin@****.mcp.com----------------------jbell@****.mcp.com--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 01:14:59 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Bull <bull_22@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 01:12 PM 7/3/97 -0400, Steve Kenson wrote these timeless words:
>OK, survey question #2 (following up on the Pet Peeves thread):
>
>Many people have suggested setting Spell Drain TNs back at Force instead of
>F/2. What do people think of this? Please remember, I need to know WHY you
>think the idea is good or bad.
>
I actually think it should be on a spell by spell basis, maybe...
A Fireball has a hideous drain code, while it actual in-game effect is
often minimum. rarely does a force 5 Fireball do half teh damage that I
imagine it would, even when boosted by Magic Pool. After all, the TN is
Body, and this is often a firly high number, meaning that staging is hard
to do...
Meanwhile, the STun spells, while admittedly non-lethal, can be quite
lethal in a game, as Willpower is often MUCH lower than body. And on top
of it, the drain is pathetic...
Mostly this is coming from a recent game I ran... I have a Physical
Shaman, with only 1 Magic Point for spell casting, meaning that all his
spells casue physical damage from drain. He has, wisely, takenm a lot of
low drain/high powered spells like stun cloud. He managed to drop a group
of gangers (all with 4 - 6 Willpower) in one shot, without taking a like of
drain. Meanwhile, another player is playing a full mage, casts a level 6
fireball, and passes out from the drain, while causing several moderate
wounds, at best. i find this a little out of balance, and is my major
gripe with the spells...
<shrug>
Just my comments, I suppose... Like I said, instead of making it strait
f/2 or plain Force, make it a case by case deal. Some spells are F/2,
while others are F.
Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]
The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html
"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 01:15:04 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Bull <bull_22@*******.COM>
Subject: A slight bitch about house rules and optional rules (was Re:
Magical drain)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 06:01 PM 7/3/97 -0400, NightLife wrote these timeless words:
>At 05:37 PM 7/3/97 +0000, you wrote:
>>On 3 Jul 97 at 17:15, Fisher, Victor wrote:
>>
>>> Why doesn't everyone just use the Increased Lethality Rules for
>>> drain, listed in the Shadowrun, 2nd edition rule book, IF it suits their
>>> campaign, instead of trying to enforce a system wide moritorium on what
>>> drain should be? I thought that's what they were there for.
Also, as a note here, I'm gonna bitch for a moment...
<sigh>
I'm real tired of every time someone brings up a gripe with the way a
particular rule works, the first thing everyone automatically suggests is
to "make up a rule" or "Follow optional rule 32X".
Maybe I'm just tired and grouchy from not having my normal e-mail account
back, but this doesn;t make sense to me. Wjhat the hell is the point of
having a rulebook if half of it gets thrown out?? makes life a royal bitch
when you want to play your character with another group, or even when you
strat a new character with a new group. You need to spend an hour just
learning which rules the new GM does and doesn;t use.
I'm just tired of running into this up here. W've got a couple GM's for
SR, and the players bounce back and forth between games fairly regularly.
Since me and Tinner (the other GM) run virtually the same game, it's no
problems... However, a few of ou players go to College a few hours drive
away from here, and we run into problems between games, because the GM up
tehre runs a vastly differnt game, both in power levels, style, and some of
the new optional rules.
And now that I'm gonna be hitting some Cons, and meet a few other players,
the one thing coming to my mind is "How differnt is my game compared to
others?" I mean, I know that our game world is a little warped. Just look
at the Mantids in Tinner's world compared to pretty much everyone else's
world. It's frustrating to join a game, and then do something that's
normal for your game, but is totally different from how they play their
game. I've even had someone want to play a fragging Kender from Dragonlace
in SR. It was a standard race in his old game, and he hadn't even realized
that they WEREN'T a standard character race (or that they didn;t even exist
in SR).
I have no problems with addidng stuff to the game, or modifying rules to
suit a particular game (i.e., a lower powered game you would want less
money/power in the characters). After all, just look at the new metatypes
and stuff that I've created. But when you start fragging up a lot of
rules, just because you can;t come to grps with the way they are intended
to run, and no one wants to bother explaining WHY they work the way they
do, then it gets annoying...
<sigh>
Hope this made sense, and I hope noone takes offence... it wasn;t a flame
intended towards anyone, and I don;t want to strat a long drawn out flame
war. We've had enough of them lately... I just kinda wanbted to get a
little gripe out...:]
Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]
The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html
"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:21:32 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Justin Bell <justin@****.MCP.COM>
Subject: ping
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
are my messages getting through?
--
/-justin@****.mcp.com--justin@***.mcp.com--jbell@****.mcp.com--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 01:37:44 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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><angry retort> who cares how you "feel" about it </angry retort>
Nice to know you're upset. One more angry retort this week isn't going to
affect me one way or the other.
>WHY was your argument buck naked and without gear? I just don't get it.
Let me explain carefully. Magic is natural built in not aquired with a piece
of cyber that costs money, essence etc.. It always there like the
cyberknights psi sword in Rifts it can't be taken away like a piece of
equipment, deactivated etc... That's what I used as a example for powerful
magic is along with all it's other abilities conjuring, etc...
>As for me altering the situation, i didn't know that anyone had declared a
>"situation" I thought we were discussing the F vs. F/2 question posed by
>Steve. I think it is a ridiculous sanction against magic and you think
>that it is a much needed repair to an unbalanced system (I believe, if I am
>misrepresenting you than I apologize.)
That's what Caric and myself started out with. He keep going on about new
twists to a situation. I argued for a neutral situation where gear didn't
make a bit of difference.
>Of course I'm bringing up new twists... as are you. That's how any
>discussion of a major rule change has to proceed.
My twists, I believe started after new twists were used to try and make me
change my mind.
>No but my point is that it doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference in
>the middle of a firefight
Stun isn't going to kill you unless it crosses over into physical.
>Or gets healed by a mage... wait who'd risk it with the potential for
>tremendous Drain.
If it's in a controlled situation it doesn't matter now does it.
>then it comes back +4 or +5 in a few minutes, great solution.
If you're still fighting long enough for it to come back to haunt you, you
were already in to much trouble.
> Anyway the
>arguement is whether magic is unbalancing. What if your character (I
>wonder if you play a sammie) was given the choice of losing a point of
>Firearms skill every time he got in a battle? Would you be as nonchalant
>about that?
Magic with it's lack of penalties is unbalancing. Persoanlly I preferred the
1st edition drain rules. Any mage actually had to think about what spell he
was going to toss unlike now. As for losing a Firearms skills point every
time I went into battle now I wouldn't be so nonchalant but no mage has to
worry about losing a sorcery skill point. But my sammies doesn't get a whole
lot of perks for initiating like a mage does. It's pretty easy to gather up
enough kp's quickly enough to get to Grade 0. Back on track, the sammie has
to worry about essence loss just like every other character types. Less than
0 essence means your dead regard less of whether or not your a mage. And no
I don't play a sammie any more for the 3rd time I play a fixer. I pay people
to shoot guns, I just negotiate.
>No more so than your continued use of brilliant arguments like "Don't even
>try x" or "No your wrong"
>doesn't matter anyway the point is that the mage is useless for the rest of
>the encounter and the low level spells that he was forced to use by the
>drain codes rendered him completely ineffective before he kissed the ground
>except for making the GM roll some dice.
He's not forced to use any force level spell he just has to think about what
he's doing before he actually does it. As for kissing the ground only once
in a given combat even in 1st edition did I ever witness a mage fall over
out cold from using to many spells.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 01:20:48 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes <OT-burn, baby, burn (it's a disco infern
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At 12:07 AM 7/4/97 +0100, Paul wrote:
>TopCat <topcat@***.NET> writes
>>Here's what Paul said... read and enjoy...
>>"Let's assume it doubles between now and 2007"
>>Score! "Let's assume it doubles" that's what I call imaginary numbers.
>>Wouldn't you call that imaginary? Disagree with me here at will, I'd love
>>to see you claim that "assumption" to be anything but imaginary... heh
>Okay, Bob. I took a stab at an upper limit because not many corporations
>of that size, maturity and variety pull off the feat of doubling in a
>decade.
Who knows exactly what Nestle did in SR over that time? Maybe they bought
out several other companies, worked their way into computer software,
whatever. I don't know, you don't know. The point is that nobody really
has a number there and there's nothing anyone can do but guess.
>What's _your_ opinon, then? Come on, Bob, show us the big picture. Give
>us your educated opinion. You don't like my numbers? Don't whine about
>how I'm "making them up", offer something better.
There are situations where there is no answer, your magical number is one of
them. I don't like to make up numbers, I like canon. So as long as canon
doesn't give a number, a number shouldn't be assumed. I can guess, but then
I'd be guessing and as guilty as you of making up numbers. I don't do that,
but it doesn't mean that I have to accept someone else's imaginary numbers
either. It isn't canon, it isn't known. Anything guessed at is nothing
more than a guess.
I've shown you the big picture and you've chosen not to look. Am I to fault?
>You _do_ have a better idea and evidence to back it, surely?
Not for that given number (or lack thereof) I don't. I could make up a
number (999,999,999,999,999 sounds good) and I'd be making up a number.
Yay, that went nowhere. You assumed something that effectively can't be
assumed, it could only be guessed and it couldn't be supported by anything
more than "well, it sounds good to me".
Bad way to argue, Paul, and a bad piece of "evidence" to pick an argument
over. Surely you have *some* debate experience? I'd think that anyone
would've known that or are you just too angry to think clearly? If so, take
a couple of deep breaths, count to ten, and then reply. I'll be here waiting...
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 01:20:45 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
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At 12:56 AM 7/4/97 +0100, Paul wrote:
>In message <199707032248.RAA05055@*******.fgi.net>, TopCat
><topcat@***.NET> writes
>>>IMO, Paul believes that the lower tiers of a Megacorp have defense
>>>that can be bypassed (though it will take a little work)
>>Paul also believes that the higher tiers as well can be penetrated without
>>problem whereas I do not. Herein lies the gist of the argument.
>Now, here we go again...
>One wonders if Bob subscribes to the list. I _know_ what I believe, I
>know what I have repeatedly told Bob, and it is most surely not the
>above.
Yep, still here. Guess that "one" doesn't have to wonder anymore. And it
is exactly what you've been telling me throughout your argument. The posts
are out there now (in archive form whenever those things get done).
>You claim to have archived all the posts. Please state where I said
>anything like that... I'm interested to know what slip of the keyboard
>planted this pernicious weed in your mind to the exclusion of all else.
As you should know by now, I've deleted them in an effort to kill the
tantrums born by yourself and your supporters. If you truly wish to see
them, grab the archives for the day and you'll see exactly how often you
explained that higher tiers can indeed be penetrated and even remain
unnoticed. For it was the higher tiers all along which I've been speaking
of (and quite clearly so) and you've been replying to what I was posting,
correct? If not, then I can see easily where your problem is...
If you truly believe that upper tier corps can't be penetrated, by all means
please state that now in no uncertain terms and I'll be happy regardless of
anything you've said in the past.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 02:25:56 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 04 Jul 1997 04:40:56 +0000"
<199707040244.EAA17475@***.uio.no>
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You wrote:
> My opinion is that F/2 coupled with fetishes and exclusive spells
> leave drain too easy to resist. Make the disadvantages with using
> fetishes and exclusive spells real, then it's okay enough, but as it
> is, it's flawed.
So argue for the revision or removal of exclusive and fetish-requirement
modifiers. Nice and simple.
Now you can argue that F drain is too much; but
> both you and I know that drain of a force 6 spell can be resisted as
> if it was force 2, so your arguments sound a bit hollow in my ears.
> But that's ok enough, since a force 11 spell can, with F/2, then be
> resisted against a base drain TN of 3.
Pardon me, but how?
Now if that isn't 'major mojo'
> reduced a bit too easily, then nothing is.
I cannot argue with you there. But.... how?? (incredulous)
And of course if
> exclusivity and fetishes was not part of the picture, then a drain of
> F would be far too much; F/2 would then be fair.
Aha!! Yes. Work on the part of the system that's a problem. :)
> It's late, I'm tired. Be kind.
I just really want to know how people get such low T#'s. Are people being
allowed to _stack_ the two (excl. and e.Fet.?). My, that's munchkin. I'd
laugh at any player that suggested it to me, but that's just me. Making mages
myself, I tend to go for one or two spells as exclusive, the rest as standard
(as I do sometimes want to sustain spells and do other things - maintain a mask
spell and still add some fire support, etc.).
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 02:36:01 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 03 Jul 1997 23:46:43 -0400"
<01BC880B.5D37FF60@***rley1.u96.stevens-tech.edu>
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You wrote:
> You could always require a mage to expend a simple action to ready a fetish
> before being able to use it. That should cut down on fetish abuse.
I kinda like that. :) That's a nice, elegant solution, that balances out the
+2 Force nicely.
> As for exclusivity, none of the mages I have ever run or seen in my game
> have gone that route. Define allocating spell defense dice as a magical
> activity?
Not meself, not sure how pick-nitty the rules are on the subject. I'd say it'd
count as magical activity, but that's just my opinion. The rules are pretty
vague in describing it, but I'd say he's manipulating mana, it says in talking
about Exclusive spells he cannot use any other magical skill, so... nope. No
spell defense in conjunction with excl. spells. :)
There, two nice little drawbacks that work to bring two nifty force modifiers
back into line.
And while I'm at it, some further thought on my earlier idea of eliminating
Magic Pool. Since I'd still like Spell Defense to be available, how's this?
1) The character gets a Sorcery Pool based from their Sorcery skill.
2) This pool can be used for three things: casting spells (via Ritual or direct
spellcasting), Spell Defense, and Drain Resistance.
3) The dice in this pool must be allocated to a spell as it's being cast to
give it Force (i.e., casting a Force 5 Manabolt, 5 dice come out of the pool).
4) The dice must be allocated to Spell Defense to be available to defend anyone
other than the mage (i.e. announced before the offending spell to be defended
against).
5) The dice may be allocated to help resist drain rather than adding to the
possible force of the spell.
6) Power Foci add to this Sorcery Pool, as they allow the magician to channel
more power safely (their primary purpose). Power Foci also still give their
benefit of adding to the char's Magic Attribute (which still acts as a limit
for safe spellcasting, as before).
This makes the decision to allocate dice to spell defense harder than before,
as those dice lost really limit the max. force of spells you may want to cast.
This keeps all the old options for spelltossers, but limits their mondo-dice
accumulation ability. Also, in regard to Initiation: note that you must still
advance your Sorcery skill to cast higher force spells, even if you raise your
Magic attribute with Initiations.
This, along with Fade's suggestions about force modifiers above, I think could
easily make everybody happy who has been participating in this li'l debate.
Hope I'm right. :)
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 02:52:05 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 03 Jul 1997 23:46:43 -0400"
<01BC880B.5D37FF60@***rley1.u96.stevens-tech.edu>
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You wrote:
> Quicksilver rides again
Just responded to something, and misattributed it to Fade. Sorry. :( It's
laaate...
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 02:52:55 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 04 Jul 1997 23:39:35 +0500"
<199707040342.DAA64034@****.ibm.net>
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You wrote:
> Of course you do. I bet your all for taking away sammie's Combat Pool
> too. No? I thought not...
*I* sure as frag am. Kill the Combat Pool, the Magic Pool, and all other excuses
to add more dice in for free. I especially hate the Combat Pool because it
comes straight out of Attributes, not even a skill like Magic Pool or the
defunct (and mourned) Defense Pool. Sammies don't need those dice. They get
along fine now that their targets don't get auto successes from armor...
losthalo, always tinkering with game systems, but usually coming up with things
he likes better
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 02:57:16 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 04 Jul 1997 00:14:01 -0400"
<199707040414.AAA26106@******.san.uc.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
You wrote:
> As for cyber/bio that's detrimental look no further than
> the move by wire systems and sythacardium, adrenal pump, etc.. do you want
> me to go on?
Don't recall Synthacardium having a drawback, but the Adrenal Pump?? Does
*anyone* use this thing? I cringed when I first read the rules for it, read it
through again to be sure I got it right, and then ruled it out of being used...
Move-By-Wire? The drawback more than makes up for its benefit, that's for
sure. Worry bout someday losing your nervous system... Something for those
char's who've decided they don't care if they die, not for normal char use,
imo.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 02:14:58 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 07:19 PM 7/3/97 -0400, Jonathan wrote:
>On Thursday, July 03, 1997 18:39, TopCat[SMTP:topcat@***.NET] wrote:
>> >Just to make a point about how you get 'professional' runners as
>> >opposed to gutterpunks, I'm going to give an exemple of how a PC
>> >could be such a thing, drawn from my PCs
>> >Team leader: Ex-military, left because his team got the knobby
>> >purple shaft and were set up to die. Wanted for being AWOL and
>> >stealing Govt Property (a tactical computer.) Mercing would
>> >involve too much exposure. Hence, he disappears into the shadows.
>> So that's a character history. Let me guess, the guy plans things, wears
>> black, makes a lot of stealth successes and would still be seen if he
>> walked by a camera? Professional in attitude won't keep you from being seen.
>> Wearing day-glo wetlook leathers and running around screaming like an
>> idiot just makes it easier (I wouldn't consider such a person a shadowrunner,
>> I'd consider them dead). Wearing black still doesn't prevent you from being
>> noticed. So once again, your point would be?
>Nope. He doesn't walk in front of the camera in the first place. Not unless
>he *knows* that it has been neutralized. A camera is actually fairly easy
>to fool/spoof. Other sensors (motion/heat in particular) are much harder to
>beat. So he (and the rest of the team) doesn't. They go after the slag who
>is manning the sensor if they absolutely cannot go around it (or otherwise
>suppress whatever the sensor is reporting to.
Have you seen the camera? Do you know that there aren't others? Do you
know that there are no further security measures present? Is there only one
camera? Tough questions to have to answer on the fly, pray that you don't
get noticed while answering them...
Also, getting to the security center has to be perhaps the single most
difficult run imaginable to me. You have to get through everything from the
perimeter outside to the security center without setting off anything in
between. Impossible in my game, possible in some others...
>>>Exactly. Read the first section of Fields of Fire. TopCat apparently
>>>believes that *all* runners fit into the mold that Matador puts them in.
>>>Even Hatchetman (who is apparently a runner, and should know better,
>>>agrees with him.)
>> [I, of course, don't...]
>I apologize. My take on your comments (and everyone else's re-comments)
>made me think this.
Accepted if you accept mine for this later bit. You were merely agreeing
with someone who didn't know what he was talking about before I could
interject to clear the muddied waters and I got a bit defensive as a result.
>> Stealth, magic, and tech and a plan can only get you so far when the
>> degree of stealth, magic, and tech that the megacorps have is so far
beyond >> your runners abilities as to make them laughable. Can any system
be beaten?
>> Perhaps one part of it, but single-layer security is foolish. You
>> combine cameras with pressure sensors, motion sensors, physical security,
>> magical security, matrix security, building layout, fences, walls, locks,
>> doors, drones, and whatever else to create a security web which no-one can
>> get through without being detected. So what if a scientist is detected,
>> there's no reason to shoot him. But if nobody is supposed to be in Room 412
>> after 7pm and someone's there, then security takes effect. Most security
>> techniques now essentially become impenetrable when layered. In 205X
>> there's so much more to play with...
>So don't be in the room in a black-out period. Have a legitimate reason to
>be there. You are apparently thinking that the runners are going to beat
>their head against the brick wall of security. Why should they? I tell you
>three time: The human element is the most vulnerable element of a security
>system, and any security system MUST have it. If security is hair-trigger
>enough that any spoofing attempt will be detected, tickle it. Degrade the
>responses of who/whatever is responding to the security alert. (Calling up
>the ready-alert squad three nights running for a false alarm is going to
>tick them off.)
Security personnel know they have a job to do and they'll do it. If they
don't, that great corporate wallet they've been living off of for the past
however many years will suddenly shut on them and they'll be fired. Being
fired to most people isn't a good thing, but to literally be thrown out in
the street (lose your house and such) when you get fired is another. Also,
in some cases (Renraku, Mitsuhama, Fuchi, Shiawase, and other corps of that
sort) this means loss of face for one's self and one's family. Bad news all
around if you don't take your job seriously.
Corporate installation security isn't akin to retail security simply because
of how it's handled and viewed by the corporation or gov't that installed
it. Woneal has had many problems with this concept so far, and I dont think
he will get around to udnerstanding this. I'm pretty sure you've got it
down, at least it seems like you do, but I wanted to throw that in because
it seemed like a good place to do so.
Also, detection doesn't necessarily mean alarm. Security should *always*
detect, then it should act if there's something wrong. When I walk through
the hallways of a given corp or gov't facility, I'm noticed. If I'm
supposed to be there (visiting and with a worker or working there myself)
then nothing happens. If I'm not supposed to be there, then problems can
and have occured. If I was really trying to sneak in and deactivate
security, I (an anyone else) would have a hell of a time getting on the corp
grounds let alone doing anything after that. CorpSec goes into this in
great detail and does it better than I could here in a few long posts.
>I said it before, I'll say it again: No security is impenetrable. It is too
>bloody expensive, too bloody difficult, and too bloody annoying to the
>people who have to work around it.
It's a lot cheaper and easier, as well as less noticeable, than I ever
would've thought. Read through CorpSec and then think to yourself "how the
hell does anyone get through all this to the goodies?". I know that's what
I thought...
>> A good plan and a professional attitude is going to get you by that?
>Yep. And if a plan cannot be found in a reasonable time, I've had the team
>return their front money to the employer.
Now there's something that makes a great deal of sense. Every once in a
while I throw a suicide run at players just to see if they'll accept it or
if they'll look for something else or even stop the run if it gets too hot
for them. Mike, Mike, and Jason... you guys get that? ;)
>I resent that. I guess you would consider a voluntary extractee giving them
>inside aid "divine intervention," then. Or intra-corporation politics
>preventing effective response to a threat?
It all depends on how you view security. If you view security of a given
installation as being the only security force for the installation, then
intra-corporate politics and voluntary extractees won't help a whole lot as
they'll be their own entity within the installation. If you view every
division represented in the installation as having their own security, then
there could well be problems, though I can't think of a situation where that
might be the case.
Security will be totally separate (and in many ways, above) all other
departments of a given installation. It is their job to keep corporate
resources safe and make sure that things run smooth and sure around the
clock so the wishes of someone in another division will have to conform in
some ways to the practices of security. In simpler words, an inside guy
helps, but not a whole lot if there's security around.
> As someone else pointed out, a
>corporation is not a group mind (certain parts of Aztechnology
>probationarily excluded...) and does not always act as such. Classic
>examples of this in the SR world would be a run where one part of Fuchi
>(Nakatomi) commissions a run against another (Villiers) - a situation where
>the security officers' loyalties will most certainly be strained.
An interesting situation and something that could often be found no doubt.
However, security officer's loyalties will rarely, if ever, find themselves
strained. Most of this is due to paranoia: any Villers site will have
Villiers security and any Nakatomi site will have Nakatomi security. They
wouldn't even think of letting one of their rivals place troops at their
door. In the big, happy megacoporate picture, they all wear the same Fuchi
uniform.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 03:01:16 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 04 Jul 1997 00:36:32 -0400 (EDT)"
<19970704.003504.3343.8.lobo1@****.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
You wrote:
> Figured I'd go ahead and give a few more comments while I was at this:)
> My personal pet peeves with SR:
> What does all this stuff do???
> -Three fourths of the the cyberware isn't really explained as to how it
> does what it does. Wired Reflexes is my current favorite example. What
> about the blood filter? How on earth do you filter *everything* that goes
> into someone's blood? :) I guess I just like to have answers.
The body does this all the time, just not to the extent that the cyber does. A
pump and a screen which catches nasties and removes them from the flow. 2050
tech that should be possible.
> Sample adventure. I don't know how many times I've wished to have had a
> sample adventure in the main book I coul look at, just for reference, if
> nothing else.
Problem here is length. Let people buy one module, if they need an example, it
doesn't need to be in the general rulebook, enough to clutter it up already.
> Staging. I've seen some of the stuff on the staging from SR1, and it
> really looks to me like it could provide mmore variety and realism to the
> game. It'd be nice to at least provide alternate rules for the use of
> staging.
:) Can't argue with you there. I think I really want variable staging back in
SR3.
> Allergies. Nuisance allergies shouldn't give any bonuses at all, and the
> allergies rule needs to be better described. As it is, it is *totally*
> vague and *very* open to abuse by munchy players (voice of experience
> here, having seen players create characters with something like 20+ extra
> attribute points with nothing except nuisance allergies - and no, they
> didn't tell me first).
I wasn't aware you could take multiple allergies, thought it was only one. And
they sorta balance the losses you take in points for being Metahuman, imo.
> What does all this stuff look like? We've got pics for heavy pistols,
> HMGs, and ligt pistols, but what about everything else? Just how big *is*
> an assault cannon, anyway?
Not to rip too hard on 2nd ed, as it had some vast improvements, but...
I liked the illustrations in SR1 better for weapons. More realistic (the
Streetline looks like a hold-out, etc.).
> Intro fiction. I think Plus ca Change was a good story, because it
> involved most of the major archetypes and it wasn't very hard to figure
> out what Nameless and company were.
Again (geez I sound like an old geezer) I liked the SR1 intro story better.
Not for the characters, just the feel of it. Grittier, a little darker.
> Define 'cyberpunk'. Very few people who will pick up this game *really*
> know what it means. And define by example. Not everyone necessarily
> connects written definitions with words when they use them. I, for one,
> tend to connect abstract concepts to them instead.
Not only yes, but hell, yes.
> Gear - at least add a few new things and expand on some old. Also, bring
> back Program Carriers. They look *real* interesting.
I admit that I miss the idea of running 'naked' with a program carrier, not to
mention that they'd have been appropriate for techies and riggers
(maintenance, man). Better, they were a piece of mundane, day-to-day tech in
cyberware, that wasn't developed just to make runners into bigger badasses. It
was a nice bit of atmosphere.
> Art. Tap your *really* good artists for this book. Karl Waller, Jeff
> Laubenstein, Mike Nelson, Joel Biske, (Bradstreet, if you can get him),
> Elmore, Jim Nelson are all _very_ good, to a greater or lesser extent.
So..... the first Edition art team, you mean? Seriously, look at that list,
and go page through the 1st ed book. You just named most of the art staff.
And I agree, only adding that the person who signed their artwork 'Alexander'
needs to be begged to come back, as those were the best images for atmosphere.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 03:24:00 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: A slight bitch about house rules and optional rules (was Re:
Magical drain)
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 04 Jul 1997 01:15:04 -0400"
<3.0.16.19970704001739.214f69c8@*****.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
You wrote:
> Hope this made sense, and I hope noone takes offence... it wasn;t a flame
> intended towards anyone, and I don;t want to strat a long drawn out flame
> war. We've had enough of them lately... I just kinda wanbted to get a
> little gripe out...:]
1) it's the unfortunate price of playing in a variety of groups. Try to grin
and bear it and feel fortunate you have so many people to play with. Tha't
about all the consolation I can offer.
2) at cons, try to make the char's as vanilla as possible, don't deviate from
the rulebook, remember to go back and read it as you make the char, so you
don't fall into your old ruts of house rules (it's easy to do, I muck with
rules a LOT, but am lucky enough to easily remember the originals)
3) I looooooove changing things, especially game systems, to suit my tastes. I
don't care *what* the FASA foilks had in mind, I'm using a tool to my ends. I
paid for the right to do so, by GMing as much as I have, and still like to hack
at game systems (sometimes ones I'm not even currently involved with!)
Good luck, try not to worry over it.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 03:30:07 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
>Don't recall Synthacardium having a drawback, but the Adrenal Pump?? Does
>*anyone* use this thing? I cringed when I first read the rules for it, read it
>through again to be sure I got it right, and then ruled it out of being used...
All that was asked was to name some cyber that caused the user damage. As
for synthacardium if memory serves it can amoungst other things high blood
pressure.
>Move-By-Wire? The drawback more than makes up for its benefit, that's for
>sure. Worry bout someday losing your nervous system... Something for those
>char's who've decided they don't care if they die, not for normal char use,
>imo.
Like I said somebody asked for cyber that is dangereous to the user that was
what came to mind.
-------------------------------------------------------Sig------------------
-----------------------------------------
Ah at last! The TRANSFORMATION is complete!
For YEARS they mocked me! They took the name EMMANUEL LEWIS in vain!
But tonight RETRIBUTION will be mine!
For I am REBORN as --WEBSTER--, The adorable scamp of DOOM!
Ma'am's and Georges beware Webster walks the earth and he's got a
HANKERIN' for some SPANKERIN'!
Man did I nail this mad doctor routine or WHAT?
"Deadpool #4"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 02:46:30 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET>
Subject: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I would love for SR3 to address the Physad problem...
It seems (to me anyways) that almost every ability a physad can get using
his magic, the chromed to the hilt cyber-sammauri can get cheaper.
Compared to all the cyber/bio reflex enhancers, the increased reflexes
ability is much too expensive... Killing hands is nice, but then, the sammie
with hand razors, swords, etc is capable of matching this. Increased
reaction and improved attributes are rediculously overpriced for physads...
improved senses are nice, but again, the cyber-sammie can get most of these
too.... Improved ability can be quite useful, but only in large
amounts...Astral perception is one of the few advantages available to a
physad that isnt available to sammies. An extremely useful advantage too...
Some abilities in the Grimoire and Awakenings are rather interesting, but I
really dont think it makes up for the power edge available to sammies and
full magic users...
And of course initiation is a collossal rip-off for physads... They have to
spend at least 20 karma to get to grade 1 at which time they get to spend
another whole point! Wow, I can buy a general skill at level 4 or get a
whole physad point!
Anyone else have any imput/suggestions?
Thanks for letting me rave
John Dukes
aka: TheGrinch
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 03:31:31 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Initiative
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Since I may lose my EMail soon, and since I've been bouncing this idea around
in my head for some time now, looking for somewhere to get some feedback on it,
I've decided to post it here. The original idea was to come up with an
initiative system which didn't rely on combat _rounds_, thus keeping combat and
other initiative actions flowing along rather than 'my action this round
is...'. Rather than being a simple die roll as SR's, it is based off an
attribute roll (perhaps SR's Reaction in this case) against a target number,
fairly low (a 2 or a 3 in this case). The number of successes determine who
acts first but, rather than running down the order for the next person 'in
line' until the 'round' is over, instead the character who acted re-rolls, and
only that character. Everyone else simply adds one or two successes to their
total and the person with the new highest total acts (and then re-rolls, ad
infinitum). This means that characters with an enhanced Reaction would have a
much higher chance of acting first, but no minimum value. They also have the
possibility of acting more than once before their opponents, but it isn't
guaranteed so much as it is in SR. But as I said before, the primary aim of
developing this was to eliminate combat rounds... SR's 3-second round never
made any damn sense to me. It also nicely simulates other char's coming into
the fight late... they just roll init. and come into the fight with that total,
their lower total reflecting their time spent 'catching up' and figuring out
what to do. I think this system, if worked into SR, could make combat a bit
less predictable (same folks always go first, and always get X number of
actions, etc.) and more 'realistic' (much as I know the term makes some around
this list cringe). One might even go so far as forcing char's who dodge, etc.
to re-roll rather than keeping their built-up initiative total (since they have
to re-evaluate their situation).
Please note that the system I was originally coming up with this for was an RPG
system for my own use (still in progress, natch) and so was based off multiple
d-12's (yes I'm odd, they just seem nice and random to me). In SR terms, I'd
figure that the difficulty for the init roll should be a 2 or a 3, and add 1
to the totals for each round they've not acted. Dice pools would refresh as
with SR2, on your actions. The Simple, Free, and Complex Actions could be used
as-is.
If this makes no sense whatsoever, say so and I'll try to explain it further,
or post an example or two. If anyone likes the idea, great, if not, I'll go
back into my li'l mad scientist's lab and putter away at it some more myself.
:) Sorry Bull for posting something more about tinkering and house rules,
but... It may be a while before I get another chance.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 03:55:29 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Elemental Totems (was: Fire Totem)
In a message dated 97-07-03 11:38:42 EDT, Dscher@****.CO.ZA (Dion Scher)
writes:
>
> Awakenings gives a fire totem and one of my players is a shaman who
belongs
> to such.
> I was wondering if any other groups/players/gms use this totem as I'd like
> to share some ideas on how to handle this totem.
>
> I'm looking for ideas on characteristics of sucha a shaman.
>
>
Actually, yeah, in the games here, the concept of the "Totemic Elements" has
been used for some time, and after it came out, the Underworld Sourcebook's
"Wu Xing" seemed to have built up quite a bit of it...
Fire = Combat, Fire Manipulations
Water = Illusions & Health Magic
Air = Detection, Mental & Telekinetic Manipulations
Earth = Transformation Manipulations & Health
Granted this just general stuff, the normal +2 bonus to such things, with a
-2 towards the contacting of opposing elemental spheres type stuff...
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 03:51:43 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 04 Jul 1997 02:14:58 -0500"
<199707040714.CAA01459@*******.fgi.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
You wrote:
> Have you seen the camera? Do you know that there aren't others? Do you
> know that there are no further security measures present? Is there only one
> camera? Tough questions to have to answer on the fly, pray that you don't
> get noticed while answering them...
Detect <device>. Physical Invisiblity (modified to also cover Thermo, jsut for
kicks). Distractions (fires, explosives, a hostage situation elsewhere that
the corp has interest in). Power outages, matrix intrusion, harassment, and
other 'not fair' tactics. Tracking employees home and getting info from them
with Mind Probe, or using them as a way in with Control thoughts or Influence.
There are ways. There are ways to get things done. And there are ways to help
insure an escape should things hose up royally. Bomb threats.
> Also, getting to the security center has to be perhaps the single most
> difficult run imaginable to me. You have to get through everything from the
> perimeter outside to the security center without setting off anything in
> between. Impossible in my game, possible in some others...
I reall yhate the word 'impossible'. It basically means the GM is saying
'don't do that'. Is every site so secure? I *need* to get into doing corp
security...
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 04:01:14 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 04 Jul 1997 02:46:30 -0500"
<1.5.4.16.19970704024250.61178e64@********.linknet.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
You wrote:
> I would love for SR3 to address the Physad problem...
> It seems (to me anyways) that almost every ability a physad can get using
> his magic, the chromed to the hilt cyber-sammauri can get cheaper.
Personally, I kinda dislike physads nowadays... At first, in Grim1, I loved
'em, a neat new type of character for folks to play. But in recent years, I've
realized why I don't care for them, and have never played one: they were made
to be sammies without the big drawback of a sammie, namely Essence loss. My
groups have always taken Essence losses for char's rather seriously, prtraying
people with low Essence as less sane, more paranoid, and less humane and human
than everyone else. This is only hinted at in the rules, but it was our take
on things, and I liked it, it fit SR's gritty feel for me. Then along come
physads and, especially in 2st ed, they were the magical replacement for
sammies. It blurred the line between mages and other types of characters.
Physads didn't have the drain problems of mages, or the Essence-loss problems
of sammies... Not that I'm going to sit and advocate that PAs be dumped fromt
he rules, too many would mourn them now, but they could be more distinct from
sams.
> Compared to all the cyber/bio reflex enhancers, the increased reflexes
> ability is much too expensive... Killing hands is nice, but then, the sammie
> with hand razors, swords, etc is capable of matching this. Increased
> reaction and improved attributes are rediculously overpriced for physads...
> improved senses are nice, but again, the cyber-sammie can get most of these
> too.... Improved ability can be quite useful, but only in large
> amounts...Astral perception is one of the few advantages available to a
> physad that isnt available to sammies. An extremely useful advantage too...
> Some abilities in the Grimoire and Awakenings are rather interesting, but I
> really dont think it makes up for the power edge available to sammies and
> full magic users...
This was ovverraction from their 1st Ed abilites, which were too good for the
price. Things swung the other way in 2nd Ed.
> And of course initiation is a collossal rip-off for physads... They have to
> spend at least 20 karma to get to grade 1 at which time they get to spend
> another whole point! Wow, I can buy a general skill at level 4 or get a
> whole physad point!
This is a good candidate for revision in 2nd Ed.: Physad power purchasing,
perhaps not linking it to Magic Attribute so much. Perhaps letting that
attribute be a limit on how *high* a physad's powers can be bought, let them
purchase with experience or the like...
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:22:37 -1000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "... ..." <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
>Things swing the other way in SR2
What? I find the PA a rather fun character, provided he isn't used for
combat. It's really difficult to get anywhere near what a sam can.
What powers do you consider overpriced?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 03:35:57 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Personally, I kinda dislike physads nowadays... At first, in Grim1, I loved
>'em, a neat new type of character for folks to play. But in recent years, I've
>realized why I don't care for them, and have never played one: they were made
>to be sammies without the big drawback of a sammie, namely Essence loss. My
>groups have always taken Essence losses for char's rather seriously, prtraying
>people with low Essence as less sane, more paranoid, and less humane and human
>than everyone else. This is only hinted at in the rules, but it was our take
>on things, and I liked it, it fit SR's gritty feel for me. Then along come
>physads and, especially in 2st ed, they were the magical replacement for
>sammies. It blurred the line between mages and other types of characters.
>Physads didn't have the drain problems of mages, or the Essence-loss problems
>of sammies... Not that I'm going to sit and advocate that PAs be dumped fromt
>he rules, too many would mourn them now, but they could be more distinct from
>sams.
>
I really find cyberware/bioware distasteful... I very rarely play a cybered
character.
I wish the system had magic based as a learnable skill... like anyone has
the natural talent to use magic, however the years of training required to
harness the ability is beyond the willpower of most people... like say any
mundane given enough years of study could learn magic... I dont like the
idea of magic being based entirely on genetics...
>This is a good candidate for revision in 2nd Ed.: Physad power purchasing,
>perhaps not linking it to Magic Attribute so much. Perhaps letting that
>attribute be a limit on how *high* a physad's powers can be bought, let them
>purchase with experience or the like...
>
>
>losthalo
>
I guess a Physad has an advantage in that it is possible to break the 6
magic points through initiation, whereas a sammie cant really break his 6
essence without taking some highly risky procedures like cybermancy... The
thought of a physad initiate of like grade 14 gives me the shudders... he
could have deadly hands D and distance strike... could hit you for
(strength)D from 20 meters away, and would probably have 4d6 for
initiative... yuck...
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 03:43:27 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:22 PM 7/3/97 -1000, you wrote:
>>Things swing the other way in SR2
>What? I find the PA a rather fun character, provided he isn't used for
>combat. It's really difficult to get anywhere near what a sam can.
>What powers do you consider overpriced?
>
A physad spends 6 magic points for +3d6 while a sammie spends 5 essence for
+3d6 and gets +6 reaction as well (using wired refelxes). A sammie can fit
more combat-monster stuff into his essence than a physad can into his magic
points...
And whats the deal with Suspended State? 1 pt for an ability I've never
seen anyone actually take...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:47:45 -1000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "... ..." <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
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MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
>A PhysAd can get....
What I was referring to was everything a physad can take that isn't
directly combat oriented. I've particularly enjoyed the stealth and
athletics.
>What's up with suspended state?
I have no idea. That one may have to go back.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 02:11:29 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: A slight bitch about house rules and optional rules (was Re:
Magical drain)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
---Bull wrote:
<snip>
> I'm just tired of running into this up here. W've got a couple GM's
for
> SR, and the players bounce back and forth between games fairly
regularly.
> Since me and Tinner (the other GM) run virtually the same game, it's
no
> problems... However, a few of ou players go to College a few hours
drive
> away from here, and we run into problems between games, because the
GM up
> tehre runs a vastly differnt game, both in power levels, style, and
some of
> the new optional rules.
I can sympathize with you here, I've had a couple of my players want
to splinter off and start GMing there own groups outside of when we're
playing. The core group has tried to stay away from anyone else really
playing in under these other GM's to avoid squabbles coming up like
"Well, Loki ruled it this way" or "Asher has decided to use the house
rule in his game and I like it better."
We've kicked around ideas off and on about alternating between two
games each Saturday (our regular gaming night) so I'd get a chance to
play as well as GM. So far we haven't because an underlying feeling
has been to alternate not just between GM's but also gaming systems.
We want to avoid confusion between my and their GMing styles, the
rulings and house rules, as well as S/R world I've built up with the
group over the last several years.
> And now that I'm gonna be hitting some Cons, and meet a few other
players,
> the one thing coming to my mind is "How differnt is my game compared
to
> others?"
Understood, same concerns on my part. Hell, when I started in Victor's
PBEM game I had to bounce a few clarifications off him with his style
before I started making my character.
> I've even had someone want to play a fragging Kender from Dragonlace
> in SR.
Got a Kender NPC that "oops'd" his way into S/R, but I won't go there.
;o)
> I have no problems with addidng stuff to the game, or modifying
rules to
> suit a particular game (i.e., a lower powered game you would want
less
> money/power in the characters)...But when you start fragging up a
lot of
> rules, just because you can;t come to grps with the way they are
intended
> to run, and no one wants to bother explaining WHY they work the way
they
> do, then it gets annoying...
Agreed again. Why pay 35¥ for a Rule Book if you're gonna rewrite 1/2
of it yourself anyways.
> Hope this made sense, and I hope noone takes offence...
Nope. Well said and no offense taken, I think we're in the same
ballpark on this one.
> I don;t want to strat a long drawn out flame
> war. We've had enough of them lately...
I'll refrain from too much comment, since I think my feelings on this
reference have been noted. :o)
===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:13:56 -1000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "... ..." <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
>It's not that easy to shut someone up...
If you're gming and someone is whining about rules that are in black and
white and therefore "official" just tell him that it's your game and if
they don't like the rules you'll take your books and go home.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:36:19 -1000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "... ..." <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
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>no limit to CP dice used for defense
Maybe it's a house rule, but we use the attribute/skill used in
conjunction as an upper limit.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:56:46 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Weight was: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
In-Reply-To: <19970703.185943.2375.0.z-i-m@****.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
At 03-Jul-97 wrote Tim Cooper:
>Eh?
>Wouldn't it be easier if it was expressed as:
>(all the decimal numbers multiplied together) x (height in inches)^3
>..and even then where'd that formula come from?
Sure it would be simpler, but I never used it that way.
So I posted it the way I had it in mind.
And the formula come from the Rolemaster Compainion I back in the late
eighties.
They had a similiar problem then.
The whole section is about one page of weight/mass/race stuff very
interresting.
--
Barbie
==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.
(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)
==================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:17:46 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <runefo@***.uio.no>
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Organization: The University of Oslo
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707040730.DAA07675@******.san.uc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> >Don't recall Synthacardium having a drawback, but the Adrenal Pump?? Does
> >*anyone* use this thing? I cringed when I first read the rules for it, read it
> >through again to be sure I got it right, and then ruled it out of being used...
>
> All that was asked was to name some cyber that caused the user damage. As
> for synthacardium if memory serves it can amoungst other things high blood
> pressure.
>
> >Move-By-Wire? The drawback more than makes up for its benefit, that's for
> >sure. Worry bout someday losing your nervous system... Something for those
> >char's who've decided they don't care if they die, not for normal char use,
> >imo.
>
> Like I said somebody asked for cyber that is dangereous to the user that was
> what came to mind.
Monofilament whip?
--
Fade
"It's better to burn out, than to fade away!"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:17:46 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Organization: The University of Oslo
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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> You wrote:
> > My opinion is that F/2 coupled with fetishes and exclusive spells
> > leave drain too easy to resist. Make the disadvantages with using
> > fetishes and exclusive spells real, then it's okay enough, but as it
> > is, it's flawed.
> So argue for the revision or removal of exclusive and fetish-requirement
> modifiers. Nice and simple.
I've done so but got ignored. :)
Anyway I do not think they should be *removed*, only changed.
(As you say, revised.).
> > Now you can argue that F drain is too much; but
> > both you and I know that drain of a force 6 spell can be resisted as
> > if it was force 2, so your arguments sound a bit hollow in my ears.
> > But that's ok enough, since a force 11 spell can, with F/2, then be
> > resisted against a base drain TN of 3.
> > Now if that isn't 'major mojo'
> > reduced a bit too easily, then nothing is.
> I cannot argue with you there. But.... how?? (incredulous)
Exepndable fetish and exclusive modificatin reduces effective force
to 7, divide by two and round down gives 3.
As munchkin as anything I've seen, but perfectly legal. Would be
one big whopper manaball.
> > And of course if
> > exclusivity and fetishes was not part of the picture, then a drain of
> > F would be far too much; F/2 would then be fair.
> Aha!! Yes. Work on the part of the system that's a problem. :)
Well, I said in another post that these two subjects are connected
and *REALLY* should be discussed together.. :)
QUESTION: What house rules do people use to regulate this?
> > It's late, I'm tired. Be kind.
> I just really want to know how people get such low T#'s. Are people being
> allowed to _stack_ the two (excl. and e.Fet.?). My, that's munchkin. I'd
> laugh at any player that suggested it to me, but that's just me. Making mages
> myself, I tend to go for one or two spells as exclusive, the rest as standard.
As a matter of fact, I didn't laugh at the player, I told him I
didn't want his char in my game, but the effect was the same, I
guess. He left. He had *every* spell exclusive & exp. fetish. Still,
the vanilla rules allow it. (Or so I think; might be wrong. Still,
even without combo then the F11 spell would be resisted at 4
instead... not *that* much worse... 5 is sort of a limit; then it's
hard. 6 is bloody hard.).
--
Fade
"It's better to burn out, than to fade away!"
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:24:12 -1000
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>Monofilament whip?
Maybe the oral version. (Yikes!)
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:00:57 +1000
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From: Glenn Munro <eazy@*****.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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>OK, survey question #2 (following up on the Pet Peeves thread):
>
>Many people have suggested setting Spell Drain TNs back at Force instead of
>F/2. What do people think of this? Please remember, I need to know WHY you
>think the idea is good or bad.
>
From what I've seen resisting spells at Force will KO your spell thrower
quickly if he's being effective. He needs a chance to be effective hurling
force 3 or 4 spells which the opposition shrug off too easy. To overcome
this how about allowing the mage to stage up the opponents target number to
resist?
QuickFix
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:08:10 +0100
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: MANA vs PHYSICAL spell
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Dion Scher said on 15:59/ 3 Jul 97...
> Magic rules regarding use of MANA vs PHYSICAL spells:
>
> When can you use what and what is the advantage of a mage using
> powerbolt on another being as opposed to manabolt?
>
> More often then not, a person will have a lower willpower than body.
> The NPC stats also reflect this.
So the question is whether you think the NPC's Willpower is less than his
Body, and you base your spell choice on that assessment (or should I say
"guess"?). Also, Power Bolt can be cast at inanimate objects, like doors,
walls, cars, and so on, which can't be targeted using Mana Bolt.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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Steve Kenson said on 13:12/ 3 Jul 97...
> Many people have suggested setting Spell Drain TNs back at Force instead of
> F/2. What do people think of this? Please remember, I need to know WHY you
> think the idea is good or bad.
I don't think it's a good idea. Many of the spells that are really worth
knowing have S or D drain, often with a plus to the Drain Target, and
basing Drain off the full force will IMHO only make magicians pass out
after a few spells, or at least take so much Stun damage they're hardly
useful anymore because of the TN and initiative modifiers. An often-seen
argument in favor of keeping Drain at F/2 is that someone with a gun can
shoot someone dead without suffering Stun damage from doing so, and it's
an idea I support.
Put Drain at full Force and I think you'll find lots of magicians won't
bother with combat spells, for the simple reason that a firearm will kill
just as well (say a 10S shotgun against someone wearing an armor jacket)
as a spell (Force 5 power bolt for example) and without any fatigue for
the shooter.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:08:10 +0100
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: SR 3rd Ed. comments and questions
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Spike said on 18:44/ 3 Jul 97...
[CD-ROM]
> That would SERIOUSLY affect it's marketability. Think about it.
> Not ALL players and GMs are computer active. Not all have computers, and of
> those that do, not all have CD ROM drives.
And of those that do own a computer with CD-ROM and have it at/near the
game table (like me), not all want to use it for something like this. I
don't like reading things from a computer screen if I can have a hardcopy;
computers are useful for playing RPGs, but mostly for things computers are
good at -- rolling lots of dice, quickly generating NPCs and names, stuff
like that.
> (I have a computer, but no CD ROM. And the chances of getting a CD ROM are
> slim, because it'll only be capable of viewing text/graphics, not run the
> programs..... It's not a PC or Apple y'know...)
OTOH the majority of the market will be using PCs, the majority of them
running Windows, so from that point of view T$R's AD&D disc wasn't such a
bad venture, the books being on the CD as Windows help files AFAIK. Oh,
and since those help files are not executables, you should be able to
write an interpreter for the QL for them :)
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:08:10 +0100
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
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Caric said on 9:13/ 3 Jul 97...
> We have found that the new races aren't a big deal, just make sure that you
> play up the racism that is rampant against these new races...it makes life
> hell at times.
One thing I've done is make all normal metahumans available at C priority,
and the new races from the Companion at A. That makes them less common, as
well as making players give up more Attribute or Skill points to get one
of these races, hopefully offsetting their skewed racial modifiers a bit.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:08:10 +0100
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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David Buehrer said on 13:35/ 3 Jul 97...
> When you brought this up on a previous post my first reaction was,
> "Great, more numbers." But that fireball reference made sense. The
> only problem is going through *everything* and coming up with it's
> staging number.
That would be easy enough to take from SR1 for things like weapons and
spells. For things introduced after 1992, you're right in that someone
would have to look through all the books to find all items and give them a
Staging. But since SR isn't all that gear-oriented this shouldn't be all
that hard (it's mainly FoF anyway).
> And BTW, the very fact that I like the idea might mean there's something
> critically wrong with it :)
You can always come up with a house rule for it... *grin*
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:08:10 +0100
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: SR3
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Bull said on 13:04/ 3 Jul 97...
> Do -*NOT*- change the basic rules the way you did from 1st ed. to 2nd ed.
Well, like Spike said re-introducing the variable Staging could be a good
move, since the addition of only one number and a relatively simple
rule can make a real difference in dealing out and taking damage.
> include full lists for spells, phys-ad powers, and weapons and such.
> Don;t bother with descriptioons and such though... taht way we still
> have to buy the sourcebooks if we want anything more than basic numbers
> on it...:]
I definitely don't like that idea. Ever read a Phoenix Command rulebook?
The basic rules often say things like "This value is used in the Advanced
Phoenix Command Combat Supplement." which makes me wonder why they
didn't include the rules in the main book in the first place, especially
since it's often only a small section that's being pointed to. Referring
to other books in the basic rules feels like a cheap marketing trick to
me: "If you want to know more about all these spells, buy The Grimoire and
Awakenings, available from your local game store or direct from FASA! (All
major creditcards accepted.)"
> Don't include the new optional stiff from the companion (i.e., Variant
> metatypes and Edges and Flaws.) If you include it in the main rulebook,
> regardless of whether you stick the <optional> tag on it or not, too many
> players will want to use it as standard ("Well it's in the main book!").
Some other optional rules would be useful to put in the main book, though.
The Reach rules come to mind, as well as the explosive staging rules.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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Drekhead said on 17:40/ 3 Jul 97...
> Stim patches can cause Magic loss! Who in there right mind is going
> to risk it?
I know I wouldn't, if I had another way out...
> Knocked out is only one step from dead in a firefight. As soon as
> someone comes across the body, your dead anyway.
Only if they find the body after the fight, IMHO. Someone who's gone down
(either unconscious or dead) isn't a threat right now, and I think you
could better spend your time fighting the people who are still shooting
back at you.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:08:10 +0100
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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NightLife said on 17:16/ 3 Jul 97...
> >Either way, David, the TN wound mods are the same. And you can heal
> >physical damage. The mage has to wait it out.
>
> And healing cost money and a lot mroe time unless aided by magic. The mage
> may have to wait 10 hrs max the damage could last for several weeks.
There are always Heal or Treat spells; I'm not in favor of doing this, but
it is possible and totally legal to cast a spell that gives physical
drain, and then use Heal/Treat to remove that damage again. You're looking
at a higher TN because of your wounds, but as most magicians have an
Essence of 6, so with a Moderate wound a Treat spell is still only looking
at TN 4. You should get 3 successes easily, then with some Magic Pool 4
successes on the Drain Resistance Test is also easy enough to do.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Surgery costs
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Simon T. Sailer said on 15:40/ 3 Jul 97...
> Good Idea, but the cost's are way too high... 250k nuyen is a joke
> even for drastic invasive surgery.
A joke as in being way too little, or way to much?
> And no player could ever hope to pay this for delta-grade sugery. Maybe
> i'ts intended to be that way, but 50 millions just for the surgery....
That's one of the troubles I have with surgery costs too. Alpha grade and
higher just costs too much in surgery to be available to anyone except
those with a corporation paying the tab. OTOH there are only very few
delta-grade clinics in the world, and nobody gets into them without the
owner's consent. Still, 50 times the normal price would make alpha grade
drastic invasive surgery still cost 12.5 million, which is a bit much
IMHO.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:08:11 +0100
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Adrenal pump
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Not NightLife said on 3:30/ 4 Jul 97...
> >Don't recall Synthacardium having a drawback, but the Adrenal Pump?? Does
> >*anyone* use this thing? I cringed when I first read the rules for it, read it
> >through again to be sure I got it right, and then ruled it out of being used...
One of my old characters once had an adrenal pump. It looked great when I
designed the char, but after some time I got really tired of having the
thing jump on in firefights all the time... In the end I decided it'd be
best to have it removed, and I can't say I regretted the decision.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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Caric said on 15:41/ 3 Jul 97...
> Everyone faces death by bullet, to sammies face death by recoil?
They are if they're carrying miniguns :)
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: Sub-Runners
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Paul J. Adam said on 0:01/ 4 Jul 97...
> Sure. Forget the guns, have a confused and vicious melee
That would certainly be something different than the usual fight where
everyone pulls out guns and blasts away at each other. Graphic
descriptions of the fast-moving melee would help, especially if you
let it take place in all the small hallways and other cramped places
aboard a submarine. Why have a fight in a relatively open space when
there's a narrow halway just beyond the door? :)
> amidst an engineering casualty or even battle damage (maybe the sub was
> hit and is flooding during the fight, the power's failing, the reactor's
> SCRAMmed, smoke is curling from the vents from a fire in A-Div...)
How about watching Das Boot, especially the last hour or two, to get some
inspiration?
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:08:10 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707040033.RAA14487@****.parc.xerox.com>
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Benjamin said on 17:33/ 3 Jul 97...
> >Many people have suggested setting Spell Drain TNs back at Force instead of
> >F/2. What do people think of this? Please remember, I need to know WHY you
> >think the idea is good or bad.
>
> What about having it as variable?
What do you mean? Roll a die to decide on the Drain?
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:08:11 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Combat Pool (was Re: [SR3] Drain)
In-Reply-To: <199707040401.AAA25299@******.san.uc.edu>
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NightLife said on 0:01/ 4 Jul 97...
> Actually I'm for removal of all the pools if you have to ask. My fixer has
> more combat pool dice than he has a right to because to the ceberal booster
> and the encephalon. As for any thing else you're getting persoanl if you
> want to keep taking shots at me take to private e-mail.
Perhaps Combat Pool should be based on skills as well as on attributes.
SR1 had Dodge Pool and Defense Pool; the former (equal to Quickness) was
used to dodge incoming attacks, the latter (equal to the skill being used)
was for melee combat only. If you're not happy with the way Combat Pool
works in SRII, you could re-introduce the Defense and Dodge pools like
this.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 01:18:52 -1000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "... ..." <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
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>Alpha grade ....12.5 million.
As of Cybertechnology Alpha is a little more frequent. I'd give it the
standard medical costs.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:08:10 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: <01IKSPGJNIWS9I4850@******.acs.muohio.edu>
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Bruce H. Nagel said on 10:37/ 3 Jul 97...
> > Drop heavy pistol damage from 9M to 6M (or to the same as SMGs, if damage
> > codes/rules will be changed).
> Ummmm, *why*? Heavy pistol ammo (.357, .44, etc.) is _not_ used in SMGs, they
> use lighter rounds like the 9mm or 10mm. And the damage codes are low enough
> as-is, imo.
That's exactly the argument I had with a player of mine when I said I
planned to make this change... *sigh* :)
I view heavy pistols as 9 mm Para (+ equivalents) and up; since this is
the same round that lots of SMGs fire IRL, it makes no sense to me that a
heavy pistol should do more damage than an SMG. .357s and other
high(er)-powered weapons are catered for by the Ruger Warhawk, which does
10M under SRII rules, and 7M in my house rules.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:08:11 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
In-Reply-To: <19970703.185943.2375.0.z-i-m@****.com>
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Tim Cooper said on 21:53/ 3 Jul 97...
> >A good formular would be
> >0.08988xinchx0.08988xinchx0.0888xinchx0.0136x47.
> >Inch means hight and the result would be in pound.
>
> Eh?
> Wouldn't it be easier if it was expressed as:
> (all the decimal numbers multiplied together) x (height in inches)^3
I think (but I'm not sure) the three different inches are height, width,
and depth of the body. In that case it would still be easier to write it
as 7.173E-4 x height x width x depth.
> ..and even then where'd that formula come from?
...and why do you measure things in inches if you're from Germany? :)
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:08:11 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <01IKT7DN0L6S9I49K9@******.acs.muohio.edu>
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Bruce H. Nagel said on 19:09/ 3 Jul 97...
> How about this for limiting the effectiveness of magicians: delete Magic Pool.
> Force them to resist Drain and incoming spells like everyone else, without a
> bonus pool of dice to draw upon. Let Sorcery limit the maximum Force of spells
> they can cast along with Magic Attribute. Less discretionary dice to throw
> into augmenting the spell or resisting drain, and he's going to be more careful
> about what he casts...
Bad idea. This would mean that a magician would HAVE to have a certain
Willpower in order to totally resist drain, namely 2 for Light, 4 for
Moderate, 6 for Serious, and 8 for Deadly. That means nobody is going to
take no drain at all from Deadly drain spells, and staging Serious drain
all the way down is also highly unlikely. Magic Pool gives magicians the
choice of either having a really powerful spell and likely taking drain,
or casting a less powerful spell and concentrating on not taking any Stun
damage from it themselves.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:03:05 +1000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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> It is a /great/ idea. The key issue is game balance. When you let mages
toss
> spells at force level six (really tough to get successes to defend
against), but
> only resist drain based on 3, you create an strong game imbalance. This
interacts
> with the magic pool (that non-mages /don't/ get) to really allow
mages/shamans
> to get incredible mileage with their spells. The way the spell force
levels
> are described, you would /think/ that force levels 3 and 4 are supposed
to be
> pretty good. But they're not (in practice).
But changing the drain TN would not affect that in any way. A force 4
spell would still be fairly useless. As it is, and as most everyone says,
it has to be high force to affect most characters.
> Anytime that it's trivial to min-max (get combat spells at force 6 and
utility
> spells <not resisted by other people> at force 1), one has to consider
that
> the system is a bit unbalanced or unrestricted in certain ways. In this
case,
But if you use the rule that more one rolled than the spell has force =
spell failure, then you start to fix this problem. Not that I see a
problem with low power utility spells, I see it that a spell that fights or
attacks a person would have to be higher force and intrinsically more
powerful than a spell that does nothing more than make the target look
better or some such useless thing.
> My thoughts: If a mage wants to toss the "big juju" that is REALLY tough
to
> resist (target resistance TN of 6), then the mage/shaman should be facing
> drain codes based on the same numbers. This would introduce the tactical
> option to mage/shaman players where, even though they have manaball at
force
> 6, they /rarely/ cast it at that level. They use it at force 3 or 4
unless the
> drek really hits the fan. Then (and only then), they pull out the stops.
But
> that has a price...
But what about the fact that a sam can throw a grenade that is more
powerful than most spells, for a simple action, and without taking any
drain at all?
> Nowadays, it is very much the norm to see mages launching combat spells
at
> force 6 left and right and NEVER taking drain. They, of course, take WPs
of
> 6 at character creation and pull just enough dice from magic pool to
account
> for the odd extra '1' roled or so.)
I see it that the mage would be taking drain, but just not enough for it to
have a game effect most of the time. However, occasionally they do stuff
up, and then it starts to make a difference. But the game cannot remain
playable for mages if they take drain every time they throw a combat spell
that they want to actually damage someone with.
> I think that you need to keep in mind that a lot of people like to play
> the "freewheeling mage/shaman" that can sling juju with little or no
> ill effects. But in the part of the SR3 rulebook that explains the
> "lethality/difficulty" levels of force drain, it should be /clearly
noted/
> that F/2-based drain codes gives one a game and gameworld where mages are
> VERY powerful. A lot of people enjoy that sort of world and that, of
course,
> is just fine. But the insidious thing about the lethality-of-campaign
tables
> in the SR2 rules is that the /default/ is F/2. The spells are all based
on
> F/2 drain codes - both in the SR2 rulebook and in Awakenings and the
Grimoire
> as well. This leads beginning GMs to go with F/2 because it's the
"default".
> It's not until later that they realize what happened. At that time, it
might
> be real inconvenient to make overall game changes in his or her campaign.
I can't really say much more than I disagree. I think that there is no
problem with mages at the moment. The only change I can suggest is maybe
back to the way things worked in 1st Ed, with different staging for
different spells.
That's all.
Ray.
-----------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens,|
| You will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------
EMAIL: macey@*******.com.au
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:55:34 +0200
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Fire Totem
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>I'm looking for ideas on characteristics of sucha a shaman.
>
>>>>>>>I'd look to M:tg for characteristics of a fire shaman.
Go for the chaotic, destructive, power hungry, pyromaniac thing.
A char that acts on instinct and reacts with his/her most
effective/powerful weapon first. That char is quite likely to take no BS
from any body and be direct to the point of bluntness in his/her dealings
with others. That's me , Thanks<<<<<<<
>>>>>>BRUCE
"Dont hit me, I just drive the car!"
-Sharkboy, our Rigger to peeved razorgal<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:55:29 +0200
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Megacorp's Attitudes
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 07:56 AM 03-07-97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>I agree with you about Corps having the resources to kill runners and not
>choosing to do so. It that was always the case ( killing runers for
>screwing things up or messing w/their interests) there would be no runners
>for hire when they wouldn't like to dirt their hands.
>
>
>>>>>>>> Lets also consider that these killings must be done by
someone, that
someone must be highly compensated for their trouble (often on
goverment, not corp ground), and that such persons are rarer than we
like to think. That's me. Thanks<<<<<<<
>
>
>>>>>>BRUCE
"Dont hit me, I just drive the car!"
-Sharkboy, our Rigger to peeved razorgal<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:55:22 +0200
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain and other magic gripes
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 01:12 PM 03-07-97 -0400, you wrote:
>OK, survey question #2 (following up on the Pet Peeves thread):
>
>Many people have suggested setting Spell Drain TNs back at Force instead of
>F/2. What do people think of this? Please remember, I need to know WHY you
>think the idea is good or bad.
>
>Steve K.
>
>>>>>>>I want back Jonathan Hurley up on his suggestion of going back
to the
use
of the sorcery skill as the t# to resist hostile magic. This would
represent the skillful application of magical power rather than the
current "raw force" approach. The force of the spell will then be used to
determine the number of dice rolled and of course the drain code.
Speaking of Drain; Straight F drain codes are a better idea if you
use the above idea (resisting vs. sorcery skill) as the more
expierienced mage is going to impose some high t#. This makes
slinging even minor force spells very dangerous and will take the
emphasis off the force 6 manabolt kills trolls attitude most mages
i've played with seem to have.
A further suggestion is to base the magic pool on the current Magic
rating of the character as this will throw magicians even deeper into the
karma hole, (where they belong IMO) having to spend karma on improving
sorcery skill getting initiated and on learning spells.
One more thing that I've mentioned before. It would be nice if FASA
gave a sense of mysticism to their Magic rules. The flavour is
currently very scientific and calculated. I would like to know how
rare certain spells are, and thereby limiting acces to them, what the
metaplanes look like whats there and who chars are likely to meet
there. It looks like FASA is afraid to tread on quasi-occult ground
to make their system more engrossing. Please take a look atgiving
magic a deeper more mysterious feel. Thats me. Thanks<<<<<<<
>>>>>>BRUCE
"Dont hit me, I just drive the car!"
-Sharkboy, our Rigger to peeved razorgal<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:15:24 +0200
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>And of course initiation is a collossal rip-off for physads... They have to
>spend at least 20 karma to get to grade 1 at which time they get to spend
>another whole point! Wow, I can buy a general skill at level 4 or get a
>whole physad point!
>
>>>>>>>Agreed. I solved this by cutting the costs of Physad powers in
half
after character generation.<<<<<<<
>
>>>>>>BRUCE
"Dont hit me, I just drive the car!"
-Sharkboy, our Rigger to peeved razorgal<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 10:06:19 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Staging Codes and New Additions to SR3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
I'm sorry to say that I am against changing back to the old codes.
The standard staging code of 2 greatly helped game play speed. And what
ever is difficult to stage up can also be difficult stage down. Making a
success tests and resistance tests handled slightly differently is not
that bad but does make Shadowrun even just a little more difficult for a
new player to learn. Don't forget that most of the rule books would also
now need an errata sheet for this new code. It sounds better as an
optional rule (companion 2?) than core rule book.
Don't forget that what we are actually talking about here is just a
better version of 2nd edition brought up to date with VR 2.0 and RBB2.
This is about updating the core rulebook and not the entire system. Most
optional rules should be in supplements where they belong. I don't like
seeing a main rule book littered with optional rules. It doesn't show
much conviction from the designers and it doesn't make me feel good about
running it. Leave the rules checklist to Rolemaster. Additional rules for
realism that are optional does not bother me though as they do not
contradict what was previously written.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 16:26:28 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <bginc@***.zeelandnet.nl>
From: Gabriel <bginc@***.ZEELANDNET.NL>
Organization: Black Gate Inc.
Subject: introduction
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hail to all!
I just got on the list and figured I'd introduce myself.
My name (or at least one of 'em :) is Gabriel, I've been playing
Shadowrun for a couple of years now, and decided to see what this was
all about. So far I've read in on a couple of discussions, and think
I'm going to be sticking around for a while. I'll try not to ask to
many stupid questions, or give stupid answers (at least not in the
beginning :).
"Uhuhu, I'm all shook up @:-)"
signed,
-Gabriel "Lance Cooney", who's still cracking up about his last run.
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:01:58 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
On Friday, July 04, 1997 03:14, TopCat[SMTP:topcat@***.NET] wrote:
> At 07:19 PM 7/3/97 -0400, Jonathan wrote:
> >On Thursday, July 03, 1997 18:39, TopCat[SMTP:topcat@***.NET] wrote:
> Have you seen the camera? Do you know that there aren't others? Do you
> know that there are no further security measures present? Is there only
one
> camera? Tough questions to have to answer on the fly, pray that you
don't
> get noticed while answering them...
No kidding. But these objections apply to *any* penetration of *any*
security perimeter. Mega-corps have a little (not a lot) more money to
spend on security than their smaller competitors (cash flow, as Paul
pointed out, is one thing; profits are another(but see the next of the
paragraph)) and they would tend to spend the "extra" money to make their
"zero-zones" even harder to get into, rather than spending a few thousand
nuyen on each and every corporate site. Yes, the corporations have sites
that are impenetrable by runners. Even second-tier corporations do. Not
every second-tier corp, but all the big 8. Most of them are archive sites.
(It's easy to secure a site if the only thing coming in is a data packet,
and your outside "line" only has to be up for a short, unpredictable (to
everyone else but you) time.) Some of them are not. The CEO's office might
be another. (I doubt it, though. CEO's *hate* things that get in their way,
and heavy security is intrusive. I have done technical support for VP's and
CEO's, and the security breaches these guys commit are incredible. {Plus,
they *have* to see people.)) But most megacorporate sites? No better
secured than an independent second-tier corp. You know why? It cuts into
the dividends that the corporation pays to its stockholders. One of the
reasons that people invest in the Big 8 is because they take their larger
profitability (Yes, megacorps have a larger profitability than the smaller
ones) and send it out in dividends.
Besides, expensive security cuts into funding for "pet projects" and other
stuff. Security is a business expense, not a profit-generator. (Unless you
are selling it.) Furthermore, after a certain point, security effectiveness
goes up incrementally while cost rises exponentially.
>
> Also, getting to the security center has to be perhaps the single most
> difficult run imaginable to me. You have to get through everything from
the
> perimeter outside to the security center without setting off anything in
> between. Impossible in my game, possible in some others...
I'm not saying that (any, but especially Mega-)corporate security is a
piece of cake. And, yes, the security center is one of the more highly
secured areas on any compound. But, why penetrate all that security if you
can get to a security officer at his home?
[snip, on the grounds that I couldn't think of anything directly relevant
to the snipped material]
> >I said it before, I'll say it again: No security is impenetrable. It is
too
> >bloody expensive, too bloody difficult, and too bloody annoying to the
> >people who have to work around it.
>
> It's a lot cheaper and easier, as well as less noticeable, than I ever
> would've thought. Read through Corsica and then think to yourself "how
the
> hell does anyone get through all this to the goodies?". I know that's
what
> I thought...
Great book. Live it, learn it, be it. (Just kidding.) But other than the
closed-circuit simsense, there not a lot of gadgetry in there. Security
philosophy, yes. Enough ideas to really put a damper on shadowrunners
plans, yes. But it is defeatable. The question the runners have to ask
themselves, is it defeatable for what they are being paid?
> >> A good plan and a professional attitude is going to get you by that?
>
> >Yep. And if a plan cannot be found in a reasonable time, I've had the
team
> >return their front money to the employer.
>
> Now there's something that makes a great deal of sense. Every once in a
> while I throw a suicide run at players just to see if they'll accept it
or
> if they'll look for something else or even stop the run if it gets too
hot
> for them. Mike, Mike, and Jason... you guys get that? ;)
>
> >I resent that. I guess you would consider a voluntary extractee giving
them
> >inside aid "divine intervention," then. Or intra-corporation politics
> >preventing effective response to a threat?
>
> It all depends on how you view security. If you view security of a given
> installation as being the only security force for the installation, then
> intra-corporate politics and voluntary extractees won't help a whole lot
as
> they'll be their own entity within the installation. If you view every
> division represented in the installation as having their own security,
then
> there could well be problems, though I can't think of a situation where
that
> might be the case.
A voluntary extractee will be able to tell you a whole lot about security.
Not everything, I know, but a lot. As for politics, if security is hired,
that gives a fair amount of politics. Funding also generates a certain
amount of friction, especially if a proposed increase in security means
that someone's project isn't funded to the level it "needs" to be. Hell,
that applies even if security is "corporate."
> Security will be totally separate (and in many ways, above) all other
> departments of a given installation. It is their job to keep corporate
> resources safe and make sure that things run smooth and sure around the
> clock so the wishes of someone in another division will have to conform
in
> some ways to the practices of security. In simpler words, an inside guy
> helps, but not a whole lot if there's security around.
No. Security is one of the most hated groups in every corporation I've
worked for (given that I've worked for a few pharmaceutical corps, who have
strong security) because they interfere with everybody else's job. In many
cases, security will have to conform to the rest of the site's business.
Security does not run the corp. It doesn't even make money for them. Why
should they be given plenipotentiary powers?
> > As someone else pointed out, a
> >corporation is not a group mind (certain parts of Aztechnology
> >probationarily excluded...) and does not always act as such. Classic
> >examples of this in the SR world would be a run where one part of Fuchi
> >(Nakatomi) commissions a run against another (Villiers) - a situation
where
> >the security officers' loyalties will most certainly be strained.
>
> An interesting situation and something that could often be found no
doubt.
> However, security officer's loyalties will rarely, if ever, find
themselves
> strained. Most of this is due to paranoia: any Villers site will have
> Villiers security and any Nakatomi site will have Nakatomi security.
They
> wouldn't even think of letting one of their rivals place troops at their
> door. In the big, happy megacorporate picture, they all wear the same
Fuchi
> uniform.
Be careful of generalizations. As others have pointed out, the big, happy,
megacorporate picture is almost never the case. Corporate politics are
vicious. (See corporate shadowfiles.) Corporate activities are not always
instigated for the good of a corp as a whole, because a corp is made up of
people.
--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:06:40 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain and other magic gripes
On Thursday, July 03, 1997 07:55, Bruce[SMTP:gyro@********.CO.ZA] wrote:
> >>>>>>>I want back Jonathan Hurley up on his suggestion of going
back to the
> use
> of the sorcery skill as the t# to resist hostile magic. This would
> represent the skillful application of magical power rather than the
> current "raw force" approach. The force of the spell will then be used to
> determine the number of dice rolled and of course the drain code.
Eeek! I said that was how it was done, not how it should be done. Sorcery gives you your
magic pool, which gives you more dice. I like that.
--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:30:11 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
On Friday, July 04, 1997 03:36, Bruce H.
Nagel[SMTP:NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU] wrote:
> You wrote:
> > You could always require a mage to expend a simple action to ready a
fetish
> > before being able to use it. That should cut down on fetish abuse.
> I kinda like that. :) That's a nice, elegant solution, that balances out
the
> +2 Force nicely.
No, if the fetish is reusable, I can't see much of a reason that the act of
casting the spell would "unready" it. So, the mage could carry it
"readied"
as a samurai might carry a gun. Of course, this would make him somewhat
obvious a s a mage. Class, what to we do to mages? ("Geek them first!!!")
> > As for exclusivity, none of the mages I have ever run or seen in my
game
> > have gone that route. Define allocating spell defense dice as a magical
> > activity?
> Not meself, not sure how pick-nitty the rules are on the subject. I'd
say it'd
> count as magical activity, but that's just my opinion. The rules are
pretty
> vague in describing it, but I'd say he's manipulating mana, it says in
talking
> about Exclusive spells he cannot use any other magical skill, so... nope.
No
> spell defense in conjunction with excl. spells. :)
>
> There, two nice little drawbacks that work to bring two nifty force
modifiers
> back into line.
It isn't defined as such... but could be in SR3 with little difficulty.
>
> And while I'm at it, some further thought on my earlier idea of
eliminating
> Magic Pool. Since I'd still like Spell Defense to be available, how's
this?
[snip]
> 3) The dice in this pool must be allocated to a spell as it's being cast
to
> give it Force (i.e., casting a Force 5 Manabolt, 5 dice come out of the
pool).
Makes sorcery too important. As it is, an unskilled mage can be dangerous
to someone (as well as himself) because he can cast those force 5-6 spells.
(With little chance of surviving drain, true, but hey, he is unskilled...)
Ad it gives PC mages an even better reason to dump karma into sorcery to
raise it to ungodly levels. Makes Power foci than much more important, as
well.
> 4) The dice must be allocated to Spell Defense to be available to defend
anyone
> other than the mage (i.e. announced before the offending spell to be
defended
> against).
Spell defense dice are allocated to a spell defense pool at the top of the
round, and don't return until the end.
>
> This makes the decision to allocate dice to spell defense harder than
before,
> as those dice lost really limit the max. force of spells you may want to
cast.
They do anyway, as you will then have less dice to resist drain with, and
they must be allocated *before you know a spell is coming.*
> This keeps all the old options for spelltossers, but limits their
mondo-dice
> accumulation ability. Also, in regard to Initiation: note that you must
still
> advance your Sorcery skill to cast higher force spells, even if you raise
your
> Magic attribute with Initiations.
Wow. Double penalization with a vengeance. And it doesn't make much sense.
Also limits role-playing oppoortunities. Say I want to play a mage who
isn't very skilled. Under your system, I can't do much of anything. Under
the regular system, I can cast a high-force spell, but I'm as much a danger
to myself as to my target if I do.
If magic is that overbalancing in your world, increase the frequency of
background count.
> This, along with Fade's suggestions about force modifiers above, I think
could
> easily make everybody happy who has been participating in this li'l
debate.
> Hope I'm right. :)
Enh. As I said earlier, try adding background count to the force of a spell
for drain purposes.
--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:32:22 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
On Friday, July 04, 1997 08:08, Gurth[SMTP:gurth@******.NL] wrote:
> David Buehrer said on 13:35/ 3 Jul 97...
>
> > When you brought this up on a previous post my first reaction was,
> > "Great, more numbers." But that fireball reference made sense. The
> > only problem is going through *everything* and coming up with it's
> > staging number.
>
> That would be easy enough to take from SR1 for things like weapons and
> spells. For things introduced after 1992, you're right in that someone
> would have to look through all the books to find all items and give them a
> Staging. But since SR isn't all that gear-oriented this shouldn't be all
> that hard (it's mainly FoF anyway).
Especially since weapon damage codes are standardized anyway.
--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 16:35:55 GMT
Reply-To: M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Organization: The Robert Gordon University
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
Steve Kenson writes
> release of NEXT year: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
Email explosion detected! i estimate the last 24Hours at around 300
mails! which is crazy even for this list.
I am therfore going to answer the whole thread here not just the base
stuff.
> It's been five years since Shadowrun's last edition in '92 and FASA felt it
> was time for Shadowrun to be updated to go for another ten years. The main
> rulebook is going to be cleaned up and the rules updated to reflect the many
> changes to Shadowrun in the past few years,
Looks like a good idea as the SR2 main book will start getting a bit
old with Riggers 2.
> including the new decking system
> from VR 2.0 and the new vehicle rules from the Rigger Black Book 2.0. The
> existing rules will also be cleaned up and, hopefully, made more clear so the
> game will be easier to run and play for new players and experienced
> SR-players alike.
>
> be fixed, but the game will remain Shadowrun. So, please, no suggestions
> about fixtures of the Shadowrun world, just the rules of the Shadowrun game.
>
I will second that we need a few things added, eg physical adept
archtype. It would also help to have a more balanced mixture, i.e.
magicians that use increased reflexes and wear some armour (but not
all like that of course) and have a really thorough check through
them for errors, there are plenty more than the ones listed in the
errata. Ok the limited kit range in the main book doesn't help but.
As to rules and kit in the main book i agree that excessive
references to things in other sourcebooks are not a good idea but
when vital sections of the rules such as 'bioware/cyberware/magic'
compatability and grounding are discussed the 3rd edition really has
got to cover everything. A lot of the problems with magic in 2nd
edition stem from the fact SR2 ignores the existance of the 1st
edition grimoires rules for quickening and the like when discussing
such subjects (though it refers to the 2nd edition version will
contain more rules for blah blah blah) and the grimoire doen't go back
to them properly.
There have been a LOT of comments on the drain thread!
I have been playing f/2 drain and requiring the targets of spells to
stage them all the way down, i.e. no 'spells bounce if the caster
doesn't get net successes' for years and haven't had too many
problems.
FACT, when playing once i terminated a willpower 3 mundane with a
force 1 (unmodified) manabolt with a willpower of 6 and pool of 8
(including the power focus) while taking no drain, and no i don't
think i used any karma! (nor was the roll staggeringly good). Magic
against average mundanes is fatal, but then a HK227 on bust or HP
with decent ammo is as well and fires two shots to the mages one.
My magician PC's have been known to select guns over spells to kill
things, despite knowing 2+expendable fetish+ exclusive fireballs and
manabolts at the time and being able to cast them because the gun was
a much better option despite having a sorcery skill twice my firearms.
Mages do win in a few places.
Diversity, most things that you can do with magic you can replicate
with tech (condor drones and ruthymoid polyers are amazing!) but
magic is generally more versitile. All that increasing drain to F not
F/2 will do to these spells is encourage folks to bond power foci to
make up for casting them at force 1 instead of having the more
important utility spells at slightly higher force because 2 more dice
in that invis spell is often another +2 to thier TN and worth it.
Low kit and subltlty. Yes a 'naked' magician can still cast spells
while the sam has no guns but fetishes are also taken with the guns
so. However get even a light pistol when no ones got any armour and
well. Internal cyberware generally is not compromised, unless they had
just as much chance to frag the mage.
As to things i would consider.
Expendable fetish AND exclusive spells are rather powerful however
they do have serious drawbacks in that exclusivity limits utility
spells a the same time (centring vs TN penalties being wonderful) and
fetishes can run out/be stolen/lost etc.
The -1 TN for stun spells is too kind. Getting 1 off drain so
critically you can have 'straight' force 6 spells for 2's for drain
and getting the opponents alive for questioning is too powerful. The
'stunball' in GR2 that does S area (ie 6S area) for ((f/2)-1)D drain
(ie 2D) is just devastating, though not half as much as an IPE
grenade, MGL6's really ruined game balance they are FAR more powerful
than just about anything else however realistic they might or might
not be.
The other area to look at is LOS range tables for magic. Just how
easy is it to see and identify someone 150m away? the 'short range'
for spells. Steps of 50m would probably balance things much better,
this would also stop the hilltop to hilltop spellcasting that can
occur.
It might be an idea to put a couple of pages in at the back listing
the address of the FASA web site (which is in the front of the newer
sourcebooks though not well placed unless you look for it) and a
paragraph about each of the sourcebooks and what sort of things they
cover. Then some adventure suggestion 'if you want a written
advenure these ones are reasonable for starting GM's and players,
stay way form HB, Celtic double cross etc until you feel you have a
good idea what you are doing, these as the back covers state are for
experienced characters'.
Someone made some comments about 'plus le chance'. This could do with
being edited a little so it is easier to keep track of who's
perspective you are looking at things from the first couple of times
you read it. An overview afterwards for new player of what the
characters were would also be a sensible idea if kept brief.
Firearms ranges. These need some attention as they just are not
right. Even if it amounts to a comment of 'these reflect useage of
weapons in fast moving urban combat, it is notable that in 'military'
style combat many weapons can be effective beyond these ranges this
sort of thing is not that common in SR, multiply them by 3 (or
whatever) if out in the open and the firer takes time to aim the
weapon using sights etc.
Initiative. Easier said than done but the game does not balance well
as it stands if the difference in average initiatives is much over 10
or so, and these days there are several ways of getting initiative
scores over 40, which gets silly fast.
More might follow when i have time.
Mark
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:38:33 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <Dreadnaut1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In a message dated 97-07-04 11:14:34 EDT, you write:
> >Don't recall Synthacardium having a drawback, but the Adrenal Pump?? Does
> >*anyone* use this thing? I cringed when I first read the rules for it,
> read it
> >through again to be sure I got it right, and then ruled it out of being
> used...
>
Actually, it's not bad. It doesn't activate until the character is injured,
and then it let's hiom save his butt, then he's screwed for a day or two.
> All that was asked was to name some cyber that caused the user damage. As
> for synthacardium if memory serves it can amoungst other things high blood
> pressure.
>
> >Move-By-Wire? The drawback more than makes up for its benefit, that's
for
> >sure. Worry bout someday losing your nervous system... Something for
> those
> >char's who've decided they don't care if they die, not for normal char
use,
> >imo.
>
> Like I said somebody asked for cyber that is dangereous to the user that
was
> what came to mind.
How about the Platelet Factory...take your medicaation or all your blood
clots and you die of an Aneurism < sp? >
Later-
Duncan
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 17:46:22 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Organization: University of Innsbruck, Austria
Subject: Re: Surgery
In-Reply-To: <199707031519.JAA14014@******>
> Regular people have insurance and are comped 80%, or they belong to
> an HMO and the operation costs them 10 bucks. If you don't have some
> sort of insurance coverage surgery expenses are outrageous.
>
> -David
Well, outrageous is up to definition... 50 millions are well behind
outrageous, IMHO.
But I could just ask my father about the costs of a complicated
operation. I gues he'll know... And I bet that surgery is very
expensive, granted. But 250k nuyen are too much.
ss
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:53:23 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: [Admin] Runners Attitudes
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
This thread is now completely over. DEAD. I'm sick of it, I'm sick of
people complaining to me about it. Failure to comply with this will result
in unsubscription from ShadowRN.
I'm paying per hour for my damned internet now, and I'm in no mood to put
up with grown men acting like 8 year olds fighting over the good hockey
stick at recess.
Don't even bother replying to this, anyone. I'm in no mood to hear it.
</Rant>
-Adam
--
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
"Can I have a cup of angst to go with my un-happy meal?" -- Hi & Lois
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 17:56:14 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Organization: University of Innsbruck, Austria
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
In-Reply-To: <199707041106.NAA02238@**********.xs4all.nl>
> A joke as in being way too little, or way to much?
Way too much.
> Still, 50 times the normal price would make alpha grade
> drastic invasive surgery still cost 12.5 million, which is a bit much
> IMHO.
>
> --
> Gurth
Compare the surgery cost with the cost of the implants... even if you
get alpha-wired reflexes, the surgery costs about 20 times as much as
the implant... and that's the point I do not understand.
ss
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:56:34 -0700
Reply-To: granite@**.net
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <granite@**.net>
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Organization: Granite Forge Productions
Subject: Re: A slight bitch about house rules and optional rules (was Re
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> I'm real tired of every time someone brings up a gripe with the way a
> particular rule works, the first thing everyone automatically suggests is
> to "make up a rule"
Which is precisely why I no longer discuss "House Rules" It took me a
while to figure it out..But House rules don't have to jive with the
rest of the gaming world..and as long as they work for you..Have
fun..I personally try and keep the rules in my games as close to the
books as possible..they are there..I figure..Let's use them..ANd then
there is the Convention thing..If I run a varient game..and you drop
in to play..How the heck are you supposed to know the what and why of
my game..
>or "Follow optional rule 32X".
Here..I can only say..they -are- in the books..And should be noted
somewhere for easy referance by the GM and players..so everyone knows
what applys and what doesn't...Otherwise a gaming session can turn
into a 4 hour argument...Not exactally how I want to spend an
evening..If I want to do that I can spend the night alone with my
wife..Oops..Did I say that??
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
===============================================
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:30:11 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: [SR3] Combat Spells
[lots and lots of Drain discussion snipped]
O-kaaaaay. I would like to put the Drain discussion on hold for a bit. I've
gotten a lot of good feedback, but it seems like things have gotten down to
the "is not! is so!" level of discussion.
One thing the discussion pointed out to me was this: it is difficult to
discuss Drain in a vacuum, since there are other factors influencing spell
Drain. One of the main ones seems to be the effectively of Combat Spells
relative to their drain. With most unresisted spells like Detect Enemies or
Magic Fingers, you can throw them at a low Force and pump in Magic Pool to
make up the difference. For Combat Spells, where the Force of the spell is
more relevant, a higher Force is needed to make the spell effective.
How about this: make Combat and Damaging Manipulation (DM) spells both work
just like Ranged Combat damage; the target of the spell has to stage the
damage ALL the way down to nothing instead of just beating the caster on
successes (I know DMs already work this way, but bear with me). The
proceedure:
1. Spell Sucess Test: Caster rolls Force + allocated Magic Pool against the
spell TN (Body/Will for Combat, 4 for DMs). Count successes. If no successes
are rolled, the spell fails and the caster resists Drain.
2. Spell Resistance Test: The subject rolls resistance dice against the
spell. For Combat spells this is the Resistance attribute (Body or Will) for
DMs it is Body + Combat Pool dice. TN = the Force of the spell (modified by
armor for DMs). Count successes.
3. Determine effect: Compared the caster and the target's successes. If the
caster has more successes than the target, he may stage up the damage of the
spell: 1 damage level per 2 successes. If the target has more successes than
the caster, he may stage down damage from the spell at the same ratio. A tie
means the spell does its Base Damage.
4. Resist Drain: The caster makes a Drain Resistance Test using Willpower +
any allocated Magic Pool dice against the Drain Code of the spell.
In this scenario, the target needs MANY successes than the caster to avoid
damage (how many depends on the Base Damage of the spell). To completely
resist a Power Dart cast with 1 success, you need only 3 successes on the
Resistance Test. To completely resist a Powerbolt cast with 1 success, you
need 7 successes. This makes Power Dart the equal of a light pistol, Power
Missile the equal of a heavy pistol and Power Bolt the equal of an assault
rifle, roughly.
Since Combat spells are not reduced by armor, and guns are, it is possible to
throw one of the above spells at Force 4 or 5 with a very good chance of
hurting a target badly. You could also make something like Mana Missile more
of the "standard sidearm" than Manabolt, just like a samurai would be more
likely to use an Ares Predator than whip out an AK-97 right away. This would
lessen the Force and Drain needed for an effective combat spell, but Drain
could still be set at F instead of F/2.
EXAMPLE:
Caric the street mage squares off against NightLife, the samurai : )
Caric has Mana Missile: 4, Sorcery: 6 and Willpower: 6
NightLife has Willpower: 6
We'll assume Caric gets the drop on NightLife somehow (surprise,
invisibility, etc.) since I don't want to bring Wired Reflexes into this
argument right now.
Caric throws his Mana Missile at Force 4, adding in 4 dice from his Magic
Pool. He rolls 8 dice against TN 6 (NightLife's Will). He gets 1 success.
NightLife rolls 6 dice (his Will) to resist against TN 4 (the spell's Force).
He gets 4 successes.
NightLife has 3 successes more than Caric, so he stages the damage of the
spell down to Light and takes a Light wound. (The extra success has no
effect). If the spell had been manabolt, NightLife would have taken a
Moderate wound.
Caric resists 4M Drain with 8 dice (his Will + 2 dice from Magic Pool). He
rolls 4 successes for no Drain. If he were using Manabolt instead, he would
have taken Light Drain.
The above is an extreme example: a Willpower 6 target SHOULD be tough to
affect, but under this sceheme, Caric still did damage. Under the current
system, he would have done none. Against an opponent of equal Will 4:
Caric rolls 8 dice vs TN 4 with 6 successes
Target rolls 4 dice vs TN 4 with 2 successes
Caric has 4 net successes and stages the damage up to Deadly, then rolls 8
dice vs. TN 4, scoring 3 successes, so he takes Light drain.
How does something like this work for everyone?
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 18:41:36 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Organization: University of Innsbruck, Austria
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
In-Reply-To: <970704123011_847095145@*******.mail.aol.com>
> Caric throws his Mana Missile at Force 4, adding in 4 dice from his Magic
> Pool. He rolls 8 dice against TN 6 (NightLife's Will). He gets 1 success.
>
> Steve
Just one thing: Caric would be veeeeery stupid if he had learnt the
spell at level 4. Why not at level 6? costs just 2 spell points
more, while it makes the spell really deadly. This was a problem in
my group: every single combat spell was at level 6, and there was no
thing that could have been done about it.
Combat spells only make sense at level 6.
ss
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 18:52:01 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Organization: University of Innsbruck, Austria
Subject: Re: Eurowars
In-Reply-To: <199707020917.LAA10926@**********.xs4all.nl>
> The above info is from SRII page 28. DidS (pages 27 and 28 of my v2.01D)
> gives a bit more detail about where and how the fighting took place (it
> says the Russians got close to starting a nuclear war), and estimates a
> quarter of a million people died and a million were wounded as a result of
> the war.
> --
> Gurth
Thanks. I just wonder why fasa has never fully explained the wars.
maybe the'lll do so in the future..
(seems you know german quite well)
ss
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:50:50 +0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: A slight bitch about house rules and optional rules
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970704001739.214f69c8@*****.com>
On 4 Jul 97 at 1:15, Bull wrote:
> I'm real tired of every time someone brings up a gripe with the way
> a particular rule works, the first thing everyone automatically
> suggests is to "make up a rule" or "Follow optional rule 32X".
The problem is, Bull, you can't please all the people all the time.
My gripe (and the incident you referred to) has been with someone who
doesn't like the drain codes the way they are, even though the
majority of SR gamers have no problem with them. In that situation,
you should make up house rules or use defined lethality adjustments,
not campaign to change what works for the majority.
> Maybe I'm just tired and grouchy from not having my normal e-mail
> account back, but this doesn;t make sense to me. Wjhat the hell is
> the point of having a rulebook if half of it gets thrown out??
That is what Steve is trying to do, I believe, by asking for our
input. We represent a great cross section of the SR gaming customer
base, and by getting our opinions, he can comfortably suggest things
to Mike and FASA, and they can produce a book with rules that work
for the majority. But still, some will take fault at the rules, and
they are the ones that need to make adjustments to fit their game.
> makes life a royal bitch when you want to play your character with
> another group, or even when you strat a new character with a new
> group. You need to spend an hour just learning which rules the new
> GM does and doesn;t use.
I see your point, but I don't see how it can be avoided. A GM is
going to do things this way. And I really don't think it is a problem
that most of us have to deal with... I would feel lucky to have more
than one group to game with... as would most, IMHO.
> Hope this made sense, and I hope noone takes offence... it wasn;t a
> flame intended towards anyone, and I don;t want to strat a long
> drawn out flame war. We've had enough of them lately... I just
> kinda wanbted to get a little gripe out...:]
Hope you feel better, now. :)
--
==DREKHEAD=======================================================
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Windows: Just another pane in the glass.
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:56:54 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
In a message dated 97-07-04 12:16:16 EDT, Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT (Simon T.
Sailer) writes:
>
> > Still, 50 times the normal price would make alpha grade
> > drastic invasive surgery still cost 12.5 million, which is a bit much
> > IMHO.
> >
> > --
> > Gurth
>
> Compare the surgery cost with the cost of the implants... even if you
> get alpha-wired reflexes, the surgery costs about 20 times as much as
> the implant... and that's the point I do not understand.
Let me try and help out Simon, please note, I said try...
It has been indicated in the Shadowtech and Cybertechnology sourcebooks that
cyber-implant surgery requires some incredibly impressive technology -AND-
magic.
On the Tech side of things, not only are the reuirements including sterile
wraps, bandages, tools and site, but they are also requiring sub-cellular
implant work, which includes nanites (not Star Trek things, but neat
none-the-less) and probably viral rna/dna/mna (mycorybonucleic) protein
compatibility controllers.
On the Magic side, especially with the heavier stuff, you are looking at
monitoring the aura and body-to-mind interaction scale. Even if the subject
is drugged up, his body and mind are very much at work, even if it is at the
subconscious level. Being able to monitor and even control (never thought
about Control Actions or Control Thoughts this way?) to assist the
physician's job by having the body perform some VERY strange, non-normal,
actions. How about, stop/alter bio-electrical pathways to the lower right
ulnary nerve, that way when the new Wired Reflex Implant goes in to that
region, it doesn't automatically create an autoresponse (read as reflex
action) which could disrupt the surgery or tear off the physicians head.
Standard Cyberware (and Bioware) implant work is not reliant upon these extra
measures as much, such is -part- of the reason that the essence loss is so
drastic. Alpha, Beta, and Gamma (and whatever comes next, in the games here,
it was Delta and Theta) class cyberware also includes the ability to implant
same said hardware. That means more initially delicate neurofibril
connections, more broad spectral compatibility requirements and technicians
with higher degrees of understanding (which are usually rarer).
And as for a magician with that scale of knowledge, well, I admit that in the
games here, it is very common for the PC's to aquire newer skills themselves
(the ultimate rarity, the cyberdoc is a PC)...but a magician who actually
goes into the medical field is a real rarity...most are security types or
detective types, health magic is more off-the-side, and usually harder drain
for the really good/desired stuff.
But those are just part of it, sorry if I lost you in any of it.
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:54:44 +0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
In-Reply-To: <199707040430.AAA27203@******.san.uc.edu>
On 4 Jul 97 at 0:30, NightLife wrote:
> At last a smiley. No I'm stressing drain not damage. Stun doesn't
> equal damage.
It doesn't? Then why are there target number mods?
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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:03:14 +0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
In-Reply-To: <199707040423.AAA26746@******.san.uc.edu>
On 4 Jul 97 at 0:23, NightLife wrote:
> >Had to? Why?
>
> I was trying to be a nice guy.
Well, there is a lot to be said for that. But after awhile, it ruins
everyone's fun, especially yours.
> > You don't live on an island. Get rid of the problem and
> >find new players.
>
> That's what I had to do.
It sucks at first, but things are ok now, neh?
> >If the whiner wants to play with your group, he
> >will learn to keep his mouth shut.
>
> Actually he didn't he organized a little conspiracy behind my back
> thankfully my loyalists made me aware of this before it was to late.
Oh yeah, I remember you talking about that. IMHO, that player had
serious mental instability, How did that turn out, BTW? Did
everything work out?
--
==DREKHEAD=======================================================
drekhead@***.net --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html ---
=================================================================
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3 kinds of people: those who can count & those who can't.
=================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:03:20 +0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707040419.AAA26401@******.san.uc.edu>
On 4 Jul 97 at 0:19, NightLife wrote:
> >You can have your opinion. I just don't want it to be the rule,
> >because I don't agree with it. And neither did FASA when they wrote
> >F/2 into the 2nd edition.
>
> And I'm supposed to care why? Steve asked for opinions I gave mine
> even Caric didn't try to brow beat me into submission. I gave my
> reason and so did he. You took it to the personal nature. Must be
> some weird lunar thing going on around.
I don't see how I "took it personal", but if you say I did, then I
apologize. I do get blunt and somewhat harsh when talking about
something I strongly believe in.
The bottom line is, it doesn't matter. Magic has never been too
powerful in my game, and never will, regardless of the outcome of
SR3. If I don't like what they do, I will either stick with SR2, or
change it.
And again, Nightlife, sorry if I offended.
--
==DREKHEAD=======================================================
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My software never has bugs. It just develops random features.
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:06:45 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In a message dated 97-07-04 11:59:48 EDT, NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
(Bruce H. Nagel) writes:
> Now you can argue that F drain is too much; but
> > both you and I know that drain of a force 6 spell can be resisted as
> > if it was force 2, so your arguments sound a bit hollow in my ears.
> > But that's ok enough, since a force 11 spell can, with F/2, then be
> > resisted against a base drain TN of 3.
> Pardon me, but how?
>
> Now if that isn't 'major mojo'
I think that stuff would be mighty impressive myself...
> > reduced a bit too easily, then nothing is.
> I cannot argue with you there. But.... how?? (incredulous)
>
> And of course if
> > exclusivity and fetishes was not part of the picture, then a drain of
> > F would be far too much; F/2 would then be fair.
> Aha!! Yes. Work on the part of the system that's a problem. :)
Suggestions found at the end of this...
>
> > It's late, I'm tired. Be kind.
> I just really want to know how people get such low T#'s. Are people being
> allowed to _stack_ the two (excl. and e.Fet.?). My, that's munchkin. I'd
> laugh at any player that suggested it to me, but that's just me. Making
> mages
> myself, I tend to go for one or two spells as exclusive, the rest as
> standard
> (as I do sometimes want to sustain spells and do other things - maintain a
> mask
> spell and still add some fire support, etc.).
>
I think I agree with Bruce (losthalo) somewhat here. I can only imagine that
getting a Force 11 spell down to a TN# 3 drain would require some kind of
special circumstance or exclusive modifier, especially since the base drain
would have to come down three points (I round fractions up) from a base of 6.
I also have the magicians in my game try and work with design time or target
number modifiers more if they are going to make something a bit odd.
Remember, if the spell is non-lethal AND non-unique (aka generic heal or
makeover), then it can be found ON-line somewhere or at a talismongers for no
real difficulty. Anything else, needs special contacts or special materials
(read as, do it yourself design).
Also, if a magician is going to make some spell fetish requiring, then I
don't allow for something to be "just a manipulation fetish". I have it
designated a bit more, usually means changing the costs and availability of
such things. I know, fetishes are cheap, but I'm talking about something
"spell specific" here. Jack the cost up to 50 to 5000 nuyen a crack. For
instance,
A druid in the games had a dust storm spell and wanted to get the drain
reduced, so she decided to include "a bag of sand" with the spell. I told
her it couldn't be from a beach or along the side of the road...it had to be
-desert- sand and with no impurities in it.
You want that drain reduction, earn it. Normal spells make the mage work for
the target number. No reason to say the special ones don't make you earn it
in other ways.
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:06:56 +0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707040414.AAA26106@******.san.uc.edu>
On 4 Jul 97 at 0:14, NightLife wrote:
> >Nightlife, if I came up with a weapon or piece of cyberware that
> >dealt out Serious Physical damage, but each time you use it you take
> >Serious or Deadly Stun, would your sammy use it? No way! Then why is
> >that okay in your opinion for mages?
>
> Because it takes a piece of gear or cyber to do something like that.
True, but my point was you wouldn't use that gear, and on the same
token, who would play a mage for the same reason?
It is obvious you feel strongly about the power of mages. Have you
had a problem with them in your campaign? If so, maybe we can come up
with some ways that deal with it that don't involve a complete
rewrite of the magic system.
--
==DREKHEAD=======================================================
drekhead@***.net --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html ---
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 19:12:27 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Organization: University of Innsbruck, Austria
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
In-Reply-To: <970704125653_-326408570@*******.mail.aol.com>
Wow, now this is a detailed answer. I'll save it just in case the
same question might arise again..
> Let me try and help out Simon, please note, I said try...
>
> It has been indicated in the Shadowtech and Cybertechnology sourcebooks that
> cyber-implant surgery requires some incredibly impressive technology -AND-
> magic.
Ok, after having read your explanations, I see why cyber surgery is
that expensive. (I still find it too expensive... but since I have no
idea which tools are needed to implant a cyberarm, this discussion
might lead to nowhere)
But what if there is no cyber or bioware
involved? what if you just have a arm amputated, which counts as
drastic invasive surgery, but should be a real routine job.
> Alpha, Beta, and Gamma (and whatever comes next, in the games here,
> it was Delta and Theta)
I've never heard of theta or gamma cyberware... where are they
mentioned? (Fasa does not seem to stick to the greek alphabet... they
are mixing upo the letters.. ;-)
<snip magicians>
IMHO, magicians are only involved in cybermantic procedures... it
would be prohibitively expensive to employ a mage who waches the
patients aura... I guess in 2055, computers are advanced enough to do
that jobat lower cost.
> But those are just part of it, sorry if I lost you in any of it.
> -Keith
Thanks for the answer.
ss
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:14:42 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In a message dated 97-07-04 07:06:08 EDT, runefo@***.UIO.NO (Fade) writes:
>
> If the samurai has willpower 6, he has a slim chance. (Severely
> wounded on average, can resist, but can also get deadly all too
> easily.). At will 5 he's dead... and so is any number of his
> buddies. And 5 willpower is supposed to be pretty ok.
>
>
Why is he dead? Manaball is a base "M" damage, the drain is a base
"S". The
mage has to stage up from Moderate to "KILL" the sammie, he has to stage down
from a Serious to fight off the drain. IMHO, both sides are now hurting, the
law of check's and balances has made the day.
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 19:16:26 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Organization: University of Innsbruck, Austria
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <970704130644_-1594411893@*******.mail.aol.com>
> > Now you can argue that F drain is too much; but
> > > both you and I know that drain of a force 6 spell can be resisted as
> > > if it was force 2, so your arguments sound a bit hollow in my ears.
> > > But that's ok enough, since a force 11 spell can, with F/2, then be
> > > resisted against a base drain TN of 3.
> > Pardon me, but how?
> >
> > Now if that isn't 'major mojo'
No major mojo..
fetish-exclusive spell level 11 is resisted as if it were level 7...
7/2 = 3,5 rounded down to 3...
I as a GM disallow combining fetishes and exclusivity... Those mages
get too damned powerful...
ss
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:17:04 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: James Paulsen <lowfyr@***********.COM>
Organization: Northern Net
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
TopCat wrote:
>
> At 03:25 PM 7/2/97 -0005, you wrote:
> >On 1 Jul 97 at 20:50, TopCat wrote:
>
> >You've criticized everything Paul had to say from the
> >start, and been none to polite in how you went about it.
>
> I may've not been polite, but I've been correct and quite clear. Paul and yourself
have been none of the three.
>
At the beginning I thought this thread was very cool. It included valid
and well thought out arguments from both sides and got me thinking about
how I might handle this in my game. To me this is the ideal I look for
in a mailing list, especially this one.
But now it has turned into a mean-spirited, arrogance-filled, wanker
waving, pissing contest that has virtually nothing to do with the
subject heading. How can one argue about a FICTIONAL future where
megacorporations rule a world filled with magic, orks, trolls, dragons
etc?
My long-winded point is that everybody has a style of GMing and if that
style includes hunting down the team and killing them after a run on a
megacorp, (not my cup of tea)cool. If not, just as cool. But remember
it's YOUR game. I get a little insensed when people try to tell me
"that's the way it is." It's my world I'll do exactly what I want with
it, end of story (though the players may not like it :)
Pretty-please take the flames to private mail.
Now ring the bell and get back to your corners before someone loses an
ear ;)
The Formerly Silent Jim (who-can't-believe-he-posted-this)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:22:21 +0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
In-Reply-To: <970704123011_847095145@*******.mail.aol.com>
On 4 Jul 97 at 12:30, Steve Kenson wrote:
> [lots and lots of Drain discussion snipped]
>
> How about this: make Combat and Damaging Manipulation (DM) spells
> both work just like Ranged Combat damage; the target of the spell
> has to stage the damage ALL the way down to nothing instead of just
> beating the caster on successes (I know DMs already work this way,
> but bear with me). The proceedure:
<snipped examples>
> How does something like this work for everyone?
I like it, it is simple, and I think it reflects the spirit of a mage
using different spells as a sammy would different firearms.
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Be nice to your kids. They'll choose your nursing home.
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:33:36 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: [SR3] Drain
Guys?
Have you figured out yet that you're talking about totally different
things?
Equating the removal of a sammie's gear to the removal of a mage's gear
is not the same. The sammie is going to put more importance on his gear
than the mage will, because that gear is waht makes the sammie what he
is. A better equivalent would be to take away the sammie's cyber and
mage's magic. You wind up with two highly skilled, but not nearly as
tough, people.
Also: the rule on Stim-patches appears on page 250 of SR2 and the variant
on pg 99 of Awakenings does not significantly change it. If anything, now
you can hit me with lots of big stimpatches and I won't lose more than 1
Magic point in 24 hours.
I already sent my opinion of this earlier, I won't restate it.
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:35:01 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 04 Jul 1997 13:08:10 +0100"
<199707041106.NAA02247@**********.xs4all.nl>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
You wrote:
> Bruce H. Nagel said on 10:37/ 3 Jul 97...
> That's exactly the argument I had with a player of mine when I said I
> planned to make this change... *sigh* :)
> I view heavy pistols as 9 mm Para (+ equivalents) and up; since this is
> the same round that lots of SMGs fire IRL, it makes no sense to me that a
> heavy pistol should do more damage than an SMG. .357s and other
> high(er)-powered weapons are catered for by the Ruger Warhawk, which does
> 10M under SRII rules, and 7M in my house rules.
Okay, here we go... would you rather take a round from a .357(or.44) or the
9mmP? I know the 9mm is a respectable round, but it has nowhere near the
energy or mass of a .44mag slug. I figure the .357 or so is the typical heavy
round, or something close to it (I recall Dirk in 2XS bitching about the heavy
recoil on his Manhunter...). The 9mm, if anything, should fall into the
category of a 'medium' pistol, with a 6M or 7M damage code. Look at the Uzi
III, 6M. SMGs use a ligher round to get controllable bursts (recall hearing
the .45 Mac10 had big problems with recoil). Heavy pistols are supposed to be
big, scary weapons, and I don't think the 9mm round qualifies.
losthalo
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
> children, and no advertising industry.
> -> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
> -> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:43:46 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 04 Jul 1997 13:08:11 +0100"
<199707041107.NAA02362@**********.xs4all.nl>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
You wrote:
> Bruce H. Nagel said on 19:09/ 3 Jul 97...
> Bad idea. This would mean that a magician would HAVE to have a certain
> Willpower in order to totally resist drain, namely 2 for Light, 4 for
> Moderate, 6 for Serious, and 8 for Deadly. That means nobody is going to
> take no drain at all from Deadly drain spells, and staging Serious drain
> all the way down is also highly unlikely. Magic Pool gives magicians the
> choice of either having a really powerful spell and likely taking drain,
> or casting a less powerful spell and concentrating on not taking any Stun
> damage from it themselves.
I later on revised this idea to allow them a pool, but one which they must use
up in order to give spells a force value when casting. Thus:
casting a force 4 Fireball, I take 4 dice from my magic pool and allocate it to
casting, the other two I allocate to resisting drain.
Also it allows for magicians to have spell defense, which I like (as it allows
them to protect others). And bear in mind this is keeping F/2 as the base
drain...
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:51:26 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Staging Codes and New Additions to SR3
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 04 Jul 1997 10:06:19 -0400"
<199707041406.KAA09256@*********.mindspring.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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You wrote:
I don't really care if the game is a neency bit harder to learn, if it makes it
better. I managed to learn SR1 and run it without ever having seen it played
and with my only previous experience being AD&D... And SR2 was clarified and
simplified to encourage newer gamers, so it could be their first game, a trend
I don't like, and hope isn't carried further in 3rd Ed.
> Don't forget that most of the rule books would also
> now need an errata sheet for this new code. It sounds better as an
> optional rule (companion 2?) than core rule book.
What happened when SR2 came out? Major rules revisions, some of which really
improved the game:
* new rules for burst and autofire that really sped up play and made full-
auto weapons worth something
* completely new damage codes
* completely new drain codes
* new rules for attacking through foci, making mages a little more squeamish
about using them
*complete change in combat dice pools, elimination of Astral Pool
All these required people to adjust a lot, but most people seem to like 2nd Ed
a *lot* better than first...
> Don't forget that what we are actually talking about here is just a
> better version of 2nd edition brought up to date with VR 2.0 and RBB2.
> This is about updating the core rulebook and not the entire system. Most
> optional rules should be in supplements where they belong. I don't like
> seeing a main rule book littered with optional rules. It doesn't show
> much conviction from the designers and it doesn't make me feel good about
> running it. Leave the rules checklist to Rolemaster. Additional rules for
> realism that are optional does not bother me though as they do not
> contradict what was previously written.
I don't want just an 'update', if they're going to bother doing this, I'd like
to see a better system come out of it. Remember 2nd Ed AD&D? Few rules really
changed, I could have been playing with the old books. Why bother? Sorry, not
trying to sound preachy.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:01:26 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 04 Jul 1997 11:30:11 -0400"
<01BC886D.A3135FE0@***rley1.u96.stevens-tech.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
You wrote:
> On Friday, July 04, 1997 03:36, Bruce H.
> Nagel[SMTP:NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU] wrote:
> No, if the fetish is reusable, I can't see much of a reason that the act of
> casting the spell would "unready" it. So, the mage could carry it
"readied"
> as a samurai might carry a gun. Of course, this would make him somewhat
> obvious a s a mage. Class, what to we do to mages? ("Geek them first!!!")
No, just that you have to ready it before you cast, and can continue holding it
'readied' if you want to. But if you've been doing something else, you have to
dig out that fetish to cast, and it takes time. And yeah, walking around with
a fetish in your hand is a giveaway, it's a drawback. What do you want for two
free Force points? See, there's a damn good reason to not take the force
modifier unless you really think you need that power.
> It isn't defined as such... but could be in SR3 with little difficulty.
Well, I see spell defense as manipulating mana, and that's using a magical
skill, and that's what the Exclusive modifier mentions.
> Makes sorcery too important. As it is, an unskilled mage can be dangerous
> to someone (as well as himself) because he can cast those force 5-6 spells.
> (With little chance of surviving drain, true, but hey, he is unskilled...)
Why is that a good thing? Why let someone blast things with spells when he's
not even very good at Sorcery? Oh no, he has to take a lot of drain, I can't
feel that sorry for the character.
> Ad it gives PC mages an even better reason to dump karma into sorcery to
> raise it to ungodly levels. Makes Power foci than much more important, as
> well.
Yes, but where's the problem with them being important? The idea was to make
people prioritize a little more, rather than relying on a big magic pool to
fill in the gaps with extra dice. People on this list complain about big dice
pools, so I thought this would be a good revision. They also complain about
mages casting wizzer spells with no drain, this also fixes that problem. And
why shouldn't mages pump karma into their Sorcery skill? They shold have to,
imo, to get better at casting spells, to handle more powerful ones. Rather
than just buying Magic attribute through initiation and buying higher force
spells...
> > 4) The dice must be allocated to Spell Defense to be available to defend
> anyone
> > other than the mage (i.e. announced before the offending spell to be
> defended
> > against).
> Spell defense dice are allocated to a spell defense pool at the top of the
> round, and don't return until the end.
Exactly, I wasn't contradicting that.
> >
> > This makes the decision to allocate dice to spell defense harder than
> before,
> > as those dice lost really limit the max. force of spells you may want to
> cast.
> They do anyway, as you will then have less dice to resist drain with, and
> they must be allocated *before you know a spell is coming.*
That hasn't changed, in the past you had to allocate dice to SD before the
spell in question was cast at the folks you want to defend with it.
> Wow. Double penalization with a vengeance. And it doesn't make much sense.
> Also limits role-playing oppoortunities. Say I want to play a mage who
> isn't very skilled. Under your system, I can't do much of anything. Under
> the regular system, I can cast a high-force spell, but I'm as much a danger
> to myself as to my target if I do.
I'm sorry to all those inexperienced mages out there, but it makes perfect
sense to me. Those who haven't learned enough don't know how to channel such
an amount of energy. Under the current system, Sorcery isn't important except
to get a Magic Pool to augment your tests, it doesn't really determine your
ability with spells. Under my system, it does. That makes more sense to me
than a character who might build Willpower really high, learn high force
spells, and never raise Sorcery, but is still a very effectice mage, that
doesn't make sense (remember Willpower is cheaper to raise than a skill).
> If magic is that overbalancing in your world, increase the frequency of
> background count.
Actually I was responding to the complaints of others that magic was being
slung with too little drain and too many dice. My games, magic has stayed
nicely balanced, because my players don't munch (too much, anyway). But I
still may try this out the next time I run an SR campaign. :)
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:44:52 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells -- Level 6?
In-Reply-To: <A338166F17@********.uibk.ac.at>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 18:41 7/4/97 +0100, you wrote:
>> Caric throws his Mana Missile at Force 4, adding in 4 dice from his Magic
>> Pool. He rolls 8 dice against TN 6 (NightLife's Will). He gets 1 success.
>>
>> Steve
>
>Just one thing: Caric would be veeeeery stupid if he had learnt the
>spell at level 4. Why not at level 6? costs just 2 spell points
>more, while it makes the spell really deadly. This was a problem in
>my group: every single combat spell was at level 6, and there was no
This is my biggest pet peeve, and I'm in the middle of writing an article
about it for TSS. Characters will 4 or 5 skills/spells at 6, and nothing
lower. I know that everyone wants to make a character that is going to
survive a few encounters, and I can respect that. However, some people
have the attitude that 'If its not useful in extremely obvious ways, its
useless'. The street sammy with Firearms, Street Eti, Stealth, and Armed
Combat, all at 6, and nothing else. Is he so good at all of that, and so
bad at everything else that it doesn't rate?
A real human, most of us, have a TON of skills, too many to fit in any game
description, and all at varying levels. While most of us have several that
shine, we have alot that don't, but still are useful once in awhile. How
come most Shadowrun characters don't?
Well, this has nothing to do with third edition, but :)
-Aj
--
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
"Can I have a cup of angst to go with my un-happy meal?" -- Hi & Lois
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:46:18 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Greg Childress <greg@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <19970704.133249.20159.1.lobo1@****.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 01:33 PM 7/4/97 -0400, Canthros wrote:
>Guys?
>
>Have you figured out yet that you're talking about totally different
>things?
I'm still sure I don't know how the argument became about naked runners.
<snip>
>Also: the rule on Stim-patches appears on page 250 of SR2 and the variant
>on pg 99 of Awakenings does not significantly change it. If anything, now
>you can hit me with lots of big stimpatches and I won't lose more than 1
>Magic point in 24 hours.
ONLY one magic point in 24 hours. Gee, that's reassuring. That's sorta
like saying the civil war wasn't all that bad because hardly anybody lost
more than one limb in a battle. Unless the cost of initiation is at least
halved or MASSIVE karma awards are given the loss of a magic point is a big
deal. But let's not get sidetracked, as the rules stand noew the possible
loss of Magic through stim patches is fine because it is possible to cast
two or three spells of moderate force in combat without having to use a
stimpatch. Change the drain to F and this changes. If that's what you
want the price of casting magic to be in your campaign (ala Nightlife) then
fine, play it that way. But I still hold that it is bad idea to change the
default rule to F.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Instead of trying to build newer / Greg Childress
and bigger weapons of destruction, /
Mankind should be thinking about / greg@***.edu
getting more use out of the ones / pcstud3@***.edu
we have. / http:\\jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu\child_gp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
When you've seen one non-sequitur, the price of tea in China.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:55:51 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: [SR3] Damage
Something I just thought about:
How about some clearly defined examples of what consitutes Light,
Moderate, etc Damage (Physical and Stun) in RL? We have a few examples,
but it would be real nice to get a few ideas on what kinds of side
effects a person might be suffering from with a given wound (Especially
for those of us with no experience in RL combat).
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:55:51 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
On Fri, 4 Jul 1997 03:01:16 -0500 "Bruce H. Nagel"
<NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> writes:
<<The body does this all the time, just not to the extent that the cyber
does. A pump and a screen which catches nasties and removes them from
the flow. 2050 tech that should be possible.>>
Ah, but we know how the body screens out the various nasties, by use of
things like the intestines and lungs as well as the immune system. But
how does *cyber* do it?
> Sample adventure. I don't know how many times I've wished to have had a
<<Problem here is length. Let people buy one module, if they need an
example, it doesn't need to be in the general rulebook, enough to clutter
it up already.>>
I wasn't looking for anything huge or involved. Something like the
Stuffer Shack scenario I've heard about being in SR1 would be nice. It
just needs to be something that can get the players into the game.
<<:) Can't argue with you there. I think I really want variable staging
back in SR3.>>
Well, I think it would be an interesting idea, but I'm not sure I'd want
them to go full-bore and do that. Rather, I'd prefer that they offer it
as an optional rule, especially on firearms. Magic might be a problem
that way, because the drain codes aren't that easy to convert.
<<I wasn't aware you could take multiple allergies, thought it was only
one. And they sorta balance the losses you take in points for being
Metahuman, imo.>>
As it reads, they probably can't take more than one. It needs to be
better explained, however. Even minor changes in the wording (like change
'an allergy' to 'one allergy') and emphasive that it only applies to
metas, something I did not even know until I re-read the rule a few
moments ago. I spent the first two and half or three years of
playing/GMing this game without regular access to a copy of the BBB and
only got my own copy not quite a month ago. These days, you've really got
to write to lowest IQ, spell things out in short, simple and clear
sentences to get your point across. Otherwise, even the smart people miss
stuff because they're not reading closely enough.
<<Not to rip too hard on 2nd ed, as it had some vast improvements, but...
I liked the illustrations in SR1 better for weapons. More realistic (the
Streetline looks like a hold-out, etc.).>>
Well, what about the cyber? The only pics I've seen of the cyber in the
main book came from SR1, and only then when someone included them in a
.net publication for that express purpose. And what do the assault rifles
look like? Or the SMGs? I would just like to know what the normative SR
weapon in a given class looks like.
<<Again (geez I sound like an old geezer) I liked the SR1 intro story
better. Not for the characters, just the feel of it. Grittier, a little
darker.>>
I'll have to see if I can borrow a copy of SR1 from a friend, look into
some of this stuff.
<<Not only yes, but hell, yes.>>
:)
<<I admit that I miss the idea of running 'naked' with a program carrier,
not to mention that they'd have been appropriate for techies and riggers
(maintenance, man). Better, they were a piece of mundane, day-to-day
tech in cyberware, that wasn't developed just to make runners into bigger
badasses. It was a nice bit of atmosphere.>>
Agreed.
> Art. Tap your *really* good artists for this book. Karl Waller, Jeff
> Laubenstein, Mike Nelson, Joel Biske, (Bradstreet, if you can get him),
> Elmore, Jim Nelson are all _very_ good, to a greater or lesser extent.
<<So..... the first Edition art team, you mean? Seriously, look at that
list, and go page through the 1st ed book. You just named most of the
art staff. And I agree, only adding that the person who signed their
artwork 'Alexander' needs to be begged to come back, as those were the
best images for atmosphere.>>
:)
Hmmm, definitely need to borrow my friend's copy of Big Blue.
Also, I missed one: Janet Aulisio. A very good artist. And I meant Mike
'Nielsen', not Mike Nelson (I'm getting names confused, I think). Also,
John Zeleznik, the guy who did the cover for Awakenings is real good.
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:55:51 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Fire Totem
On Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:13:59 +0200 Dion Scher <Dscher@****.CO.ZA> writes:
>Awakenings gives a fire totem and one of my players is a shaman who
>belongs to such.
>I was wondering if any other groups/players/gms use this totem as I'd
>like to share some ideas on how to handle this totem.
>
>I'm looking for ideas on characteristics of sucha a shaman.
You are talking, I suppose, about the "Fire-bringer" totem (actually an
'icon', like from Germany sourcebook) on page 109? The Firebringer is
based on the story from Greek mythology of Prometheus, a Titan who
brought fire from Mount Olympus to the man, out of pity for the plight of
man. For his troubles, Prometheus was chained to the face of a cliff,
where buzzards would come and eat his liver during the day, only for it
to grow back each night. That's most of the background surrounding the
totem, there's also a detailed description of the totem on page 109 (as
previously stated). There is no actual 'Fire' totem that I know of.
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:56:54 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Mike Buckalew <mike_buckalew@******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>more, while it makes the spell really deadly. This was a problem in
>my group: every single combat spell was at level 6, and there was no
>thing that could have been done about it.
>Combat spells only make sense at level 6.
Related to the Drain equals F or F/2: With F/2, a force 5 and a force 6
both have identical drain. There is no reason beyond initial spell
acquisition cost to learn an odd force spell with F/2.
When modifying FASA modules, the first thing I do with magician NPCs is
round all spell forces to the next highest even number.
Buck (Mike Buckalew)
Test Manager, FileMaker Pro
Email: buck@******.com
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
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!V PS+(+++) PE++ Y+ PGP- t+ 5+ !X R++ tv+>(+++) b++ DI+++
D---- G e++ h--- r+++ y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:48:02 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells -- Level 6?
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 04 Jul 1997 12:44:52 -0600"
<3.0.2.32.19970704124452.006cb228@****.lis.ab.ca>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
You wrote:
> This is my biggest pet peeve, and I'm in the middle of writing an article
> about it for TSS. Characters will 4 or 5 skills/spells at 6, and nothing
> lower. I know that everyone wants to make a character that is going to
> survive a few encounters, and I can respect that. However, some people
> have the attitude that 'If its not useful in extremely obvious ways, its
> useless'. The street sammy with Firearms, Street Eti, Stealth, and Armed
> Combat, all at 6, and nothing else. Is he so good at all of that, and so
> bad at everything else that it doesn't rate?
> A real human, most of us, have a TON of skills, too many to fit in any game
> description, and all at varying levels. While most of us have several that
> shine, we have alot that don't, but still are useful once in awhile. How
> come most Shadowrun characters don't?
I agree to some extent, those that take all their combat spells at Force 6 and
their invis and such at 2's, and always stack up a bunch of force modifiers, ad
nauseum, annoy me. Fortunately I haven't played with too many of them. Most
char's I've seen do prioritize their skills, ranging from some 6's to some 2's
or 3's, have even seen char's take a 1 because they were 'just learning'.
People who do the 4 skills at a 6 thing should be playing BattleTech(TM) and
leave roleplaying to people who want to actually do it.
OTOH, regarding Willpower, I figure most runners need to have a decent amount
of guts and gumption, and I figure that means a mid-to-high willpower (4-6
range). Taking the risks they do isn't easy or comfortable. And most of the
char's I've created were of the fairly bitter or sinister variety, and so a
decent willpower rating suited them. The first SR sammie I saw created
was a guy name of Demon Soulstone, made by my friend Ben, and he had a Body and
a Willpower of 6 each. Demon was in his 40's, and had been kicked around and
chewed on by life, scarred emotionally and physically, he was tough. Those two
attributes defined the character, and it was great to see him play that 'I've
been through drek like this before, hand me that grenade launcher, I'll teach
them to take hostages' bit. Of course, this comes down to the character that's
being played, but a high willpower is often appropriate role-wise. However,
when folks do it just to give the mage a high T#, they should just be drawn and
quartered...
losthalo, waxing nostalgic
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:55:38 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Bull <bull_22@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: A slight bitch about house rules and optional rules
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:50 PM 7/5/97 +0500, Drekhead wrote these timeless words:
[SNIP me whining and Drekhead replying]
>Hope you feel better, now. :)
>
Much, thanks...:]
In fact, I use a number of houserules (Mostly holdovers from 1st edittion
or a mix of 1st and 2nd edition rules due to Tinner). I just got tired of
everyone's solution being "Use a house rule".
I know some of the rules need work still, and am *VERY* happy to see FASA
(And Mr. Kenson there:)) taking the time out of their busy creative
schedules to actually listen to use, and maybe "fix" some of the rules, so
that hopefully, we'll have a game where more people can be satisfied with
the existing rules, as written, rather than change them.
See ya!
Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]
The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html
"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:06:13 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 2: Gargoyles (long)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970703160939.2d8f1220@*****.com> from "Bull" at
Jul 3,
97 05:25:56 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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|Stone Hibernation: Wherever they are in the world, gargyles will transorm
|into stone from as soon as the sun rises to just when it sets. This
|transformation is not dependant on sunlight, and will occur even if the
|Gargoyle is somewhere that Sunlight can not penetrate. This is a magical
|transformation, and cannot be prevented except through magical means (i.e.,
|the enchanted amulets Worn by the gargoyles in the Amzon in one episode).
Hmmmm....
I've not seen that one....
What about the spell Demona's under? From that tricky little git of a
faerie?
(She transforms into a human now during the day..... Much to her dismay)
Hey, that rhymes....
:)
|The Stone that the gargoyles turn into is very resilient and tough. Treat
|it as having a barrier rating of 16.
Not sure I'd go that high. The vikings had little trouble smashing them....
|(NOTE: In case someone wants to bring it up, Coldstone was a special case.
| he was built from the remains of three shattered gargoylkes and brought
|back to life with magic. In essence, he was Cybermanced with Blood Magic.
|He doesn't count.)
Exactly what I was thinking....
I like it....
Think I'll save that....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:10:35 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
On Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:46:18 -0400 Greg Childress <greg@***.EDU> writes:
<<ONLY one magic point in 24 hours. Gee, that's reassuring. That's
sorta like saying the civil war wasn't all that bad because hardly
anybody lost more than one limb in a battle. Unless the cost of
initiation is at least halved or MASSIVE karma awards are given the loss
of a magic point is a big deal.>>
Well, the difference is that before, you could (conceivably) lose a Magic
point *every* time you used a stim patch. If you used multiple patches in
that 24-hour period, then you could lose more magic under the old rule
than under the newer (optional) rule. That's the advantage. The
disadvantage is that multiple Level 1 stim-patches can become a serious
problem.
In a way, stim-patches have become less dangerous now.
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:14:51 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SR 3rd Ed. comments and questions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970703130707.006ce534@****.lis.ab.ca> from "Adam
J"
at Jul 3, 97 01:07:07 pm
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|Write a custom reader, with a custom filetype.
Only if they publish the specs. Otherwise, you'd be locking out a lot of
people with the wrong TYPE of computer.....
BLOAT the size of the reader.
AAAARGH! NO! Not bloatware please!
Code should be optimised for speed and size. The smaller the better.
You don't NEED 50 Megs for a word processor. I've got a decent one in less
that 200K.
(In fact, if I run it without the spellchecker, it fits nicely into less
than 100....)
And the filesize, for that matter. Otherwise, its just too damned
|easy to pirate.
There are other ways to prevent piracy, but no matter what the way, someone
will always find a way around it.
Bloatware is not the answer, because someone WILL write a FASA to
RTF/Acrobat/Pagemaker4/whatever comversion routing.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:25:38 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707032230.SAA06430@******.san.uc.edu> from "NightLife"
at Jul
3, 97 06:30:46 pm
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|Unconsious = dragged out later if your team wins or at least imprisionment.
|A body bag = the morgue. As for the magic loss I'm talking about the vanilla
|rules not the optional rules from awakenings the risk is minimal at best.
Minimal? Try telling that to a 3rd grade initiate who's just had a Stim
III......
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:33:38 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707032252.SAA08068@******.san.uc.edu> from "NightLife"
at Jul
3, 97 06:52:14 pm
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|As for the mage mask he can still cast spells it's just
|really difficult.
Errr....
How exactly? If you can't see someone, you can't cast.
The only spells you'd be able to cast would be touch or self affecting
spells....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:43:39 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707032316.BAA09162@***.uio.no> from "Fade" at Jul 4,
97 01:12:34 am
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|> As if a sammy or merc can't run around in his birthday suit sporting
|> his new TacCom and panther cannon on a gyro mount. And he doesn't
|> drop close to death everytime he uses it.
|
|'birthday suit' = what he was born with. I pity that sammie's mother.
Ouch!
I wish you hadn't said that...
It made my eyes water.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:56:15 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707040000.TAA19164@********.mcit.com> from "Caric" at
Jul 3,
97 04:31:12 pm
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|Okay that's cool, but if those are combat spells they are pretty much
|worthless is my point.
Why do you think that?
I think what people in this argument are forgetting is that mages are
intelligent enough to SELECT the correct spell for the target!
Troll or street sam. Combat spell. USELESS?
WTF????? Trolls are a pushover with a well placed mana or stun bolt!
(And in you alternate between them the combined T# penalties of stun and
physical effectively remove them from combat!
NOTE: Stun and Mana boltêsy drain. F/2 in these cases = TOO easy.)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:57:43 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707040033.RAA14487@****.parc.xerox.com> from "Benjamin"
at
Jul 3, 97 05:33:46 pm
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|
|>OK, survey question #2 (following up on the Pet Peeves thread):
|>
|>Many people have suggested setting Spell Drain TNs back at Force instead of
|>F/2. What do people think of this? Please remember, I need to know WHY you
|>think the idea is good or bad.
|
|What about having it as variable?
|
What about doing what I suggested in the first place, delete the F/2 crap
and re-implement the variable stagings!
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:59:03 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Okay, time for my take on physads...
Now as we all know, physads must use B magic (C for metahumans unless you
use some optional thing). What they get for B magic should be roughly
equivalent to what other adepts get for B magic.
They should not be the equal of an A resources samurai, because the samurai
put a higher priority into his defining feature. They already get many
powers not available to samurai and sometimes they're cheaper. Sometimes,
however, they are more expensive...
Even if they are more expensive, they aren't illegal and they aren't
detectable (increased reflexes as compared to wired reflexes appears to be
the favorite topic). And at level one, increased reflexes is half as costly
as having wired reflexes one installed. At level two, it is just slightly
more expensive (1 point of magic more) and it remains just that slight bit
higher at level three.
Frankly, having the legal, undetectable, unremovable (organ-/cyber- leggers
know what I mean) speed enhancer is always preferable to having the speed
enhancer that could get me thrown in jail in most countries, can be detected
by even mediocre cyberware detectors, and is worth a lot of money to someone
if they rip it out of my body.
They also don't have to mess with the SOTA on their physad abilities, which
samurai might find themselves facing if those rules are used...
As physads are now, they're perfect. There is a lot of opposition on this
point due to the fact that they were severely imbalancing to the game in 1st
edition Shadowrun and many people are used to playing them as easy/cheap to
make demigods. When you sit down and really look at what they pay to become
physads and what they can get for that rather small amount, they still
appear to get more "bang for their magical buck" than sorcery adepts,
conjuring adepts, elemental adepts, and certainly astral adepts. I'm more
than willing to overlook this slight imbalance in favor of playability which
the current physad rules supply.
Also, nothing stops a physad from using cyberware if they really want to
have the exact same thing as the samurai's have. Take wired reflexes two if
you really want to save that one magic point, but remember how much it was
really worth when you're running from cyber-leggers or trying to stealth
past a cyberware scanner.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:00:22 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707040209.WAA18980@******.san.uc.edu> from "NightLife"
at Jul
3, 97 10:09:10 pm
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|Sure do it rating one four or five times.
Wonderful idea. If they tried that in my game, I'd have the effects stack.
What is a rating 4 stim patch if not a stronger dose of rating 1?
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:03:28 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707040324.XAA23138@******.san.uc.edu> from "NightLife"
at Jul
3, 97 11:24:06 pm
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|>Nope. Can a rigger die or go unconscious flying around
|>minature drone killing machines?
|
|Yep. Any bad weather conditions, simple malfunction or how about a bit of
|jamming ecm to really ruin his day.
You forgot dump shock in there.
Drone destroyed? Dump shock test.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:07:56 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Staging Codes and New Additions to SR3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:06 AM 7/4/97 -0400, MC23 wrote:
> I'm sorry to say that I am against changing back to the old codes.
>The standard staging code of 2 greatly helped game play speed. And what
>ever is difficult to stage up can also be difficult stage down. Making a
>success tests and resistance tests handled slightly differently is not
>that bad but does make Shadowrun even just a little more difficult for a
>new player to learn. Don't forget that most of the rule books would also
>now need an errata sheet for this new code. It sounds better as an
>optional rule (companion 2?) than core rule book.
I agree with MC23 here. Keep the staging codes as they are maybe work with
the damage codes and power levels to get them more realistic.
Light pistols (what I would call 9mm and below) should do more than 6L base
damage. I would think that 4-6M would be more representative of the
weapons. Heavy pistols (10mm, .40 cal and above) should have damages
ranging from 7-9M. Submachineguns should be based on the ammo-type used,
since most rely on light pistol ammo, most would do light pistol damage.
Some do use heavy pistol ammo and their damage should reflect this. Assault
rifles appear to be fine, as do sporting rifles, but sniper rifles are a
disaster. Lower them to the 7-10S range and they should be fine. There are
many hunting rifles out there that exceed the power of many sniper rifles...
Anyway, there's my opinion on damage-related SR3 stuff...
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:13:44 +0000
Reply-To: shadowrn@********.ITRIBE.NET
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <goll1@****host.hab-weimar.de>
From: Raven <florian.goll@******.UNI-WEIMAR.DE>
Subject: Re: introduction
In-Reply-To: <199707041424.QAA14159@***.zeelandnet.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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<snip intro>
> "Uhuhu, I'm all shook up @:-)"
>
> signed,
>
> -Gabriel "Lance Cooney", who's still cracking up about his last run.
Hi!
The Bull bot is maybe out cold but else... he will greet you soon (we
all hope):)
--Raven
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
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w+ O M+ V PS+++ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5+ X+++ R* tv+(++) b+++ DI? D+
G(++) e>++++ h--(---) !r z?
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:22:21 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
MIME-Version: 1.0
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---Gurth wrote:
<snip>
> I view heavy pistols as 9 mm Para (+ equivalents) and up; since this
is
> the same round that lots of SMGs fire IRL, it makes no sense to me
that a
> heavy pistol should do more damage than an SMG. .357s and other
> high(er)-powered weapons are catered for by the Ruger Warhawk, which
does
> 10M under SRII rules, and 7M in my house rules.
That's exaclty the same way we handle it in our game, and I really
like the game balance we've seen as a result.
===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:23:17 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 12:30 PM 7/4/97 -0400, Steve wrote:
>One thing the discussion pointed out to me was this: it is difficult to
>discuss Drain in a vacuum, since there are other factors influencing spell
>Drain. One of the main ones seems to be the effectively of Combat Spells
>relative to their drain. With most unresisted spells like Detect Enemies or
>Magic Fingers, you can throw them at a low Force and pump in Magic Pool to
>make up the difference. For Combat Spells, where the Force of the spell is
>more relevant, a higher Force is needed to make the spell effective.
>How about this: make Combat and Damaging Manipulation (DM) spells both work
>just like Ranged Combat damage; the target of the spell has to stage the
>damage ALL the way down to nothing instead of just beating the caster on
>successes (I know DMs already work this way, but bear with me). The
>proceedure:
>[snip]
>Since Combat spells are not reduced by armor, and guns are, it is possible to
>throw one of the above spells at Force 4 or 5 with a very good chance of
>hurting a target badly. You could also make something like Mana Missile more
>of the "standard sidearm" than Manabolt, just like a samurai would be more
>likely to use an Ares Predator than whip out an AK-97 right away. This would
>lessen the Force and Drain needed for an effective combat spell, but Drain
>could still be set at F instead of F/2.
>EXAMPLE:
>[snip]
>The above is an extreme example: a Willpower 6 target SHOULD be tough to
>affect, but under this sceheme, Caric still did damage. Under the current
>system, he would have done none. Against an opponent of equal Will 4:
A Force 4 spell (mediocre), cast at a Willpower 6 opponent (max human) was
still able to cause damage. This damage didn't have to go through armor and
couldn't be staged down by a body test. This change would make combat
spells WAY too powerful. If you wish combat spells to act like DMs, then
make them face the same drain codes as DMs and give the opponent a
resistance test to resist the damage. Nobody would use damaging
manipulations if combat spells were this easy to cast and this devastating
in power. *Please* don't make that change...
On another note, please consider taking elemental effect spells (e.g.
fireball and hellblast) out of the combat spell section and making them
damaging manipulations. Elemental effects on combat spells get kinda
strange and there's been an endless debate/rant about the "real" drain codes
for Hellblast and the effects it would have. Simply moving these
complicating aspects from one section and placing them in another would make
life a lot simpler all around.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 16:20:17 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Bull <bull_22@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Optional Metatypes, part 2: Gargoyles (long)
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At 08:06 PM 7/4/97 +0100, Spike wrote these timeless words:
>|Stone Hibernation: Wherever they are in the world, gargyles will transorm
>|into stone from as soon as the sun rises to just when it sets. This
>|transformation is not dependant on sunlight, and will occur even if the
>|Gargoyle is somewhere that Sunlight can not penetrate. This is a magical
>|transformation, and cannot be prevented except through magical means (i.e.,
>|the enchanted amulets Worn by the gargoyles in the Amzon in one episode).
>
>Hmmmm....
>I've not seen that one....
>
It was fairly interesting... It was kinda Politicallt Correct, with a
couple of the dudes from The Pack helping out one of Xanatos's companies
that was cutting lumbar, and had a definate Save teh Trees motif that
normally annoys me, but a few laser bolts and some fight scenes, and I can
forgive...;]
Anyways, they met a group of garg's living in the Brazilian Rain Forest who
had a couple ancient Aztec necklaces that were given to their ancestors
whcih allowed them the remain flesh during the day, thus allowing them to
continue "protecting the forest" even during the day.
I'm thinking a group of these protecting and enforcing down in Amazonia
would be cool...:]
>What about the spell Demona's under? From that tricky little git of a
>faerie?
>(She transforms into a human now during the day..... Much to her dismay)
>
>Hey, that rhymes....
>
Silly git...:]
That's another special case. In that case, she is turned Human during the
day, and becomes a gargoyle at night. makes you wonder when she sleeps...;]
>:)
>
:]
>|The Stone that the gargoyles turn into is very resilient and tough. Treat
>|it as having a barrier rating of 16.
>
>Not sure I'd go that high. The vikings had little trouble smashing them....
>
True... I really hadn't thought about it too much. basically I used the
rating for "Hard Building Material", which I would assume would include
Stone... But maybe an 8 to a 10 would be better.
I just wanted to make it hard enough so that they would be able to survive
somewhat while their helpless. Plus, the thought that popped into my head
while writing that was "Gee, I can just picture one of my players carving
his initials into the garg while it slept...:)
>|(NOTE: In case someone wants to bring it up, Coldstone was a special case.
>| he was built from the remains of three shattered gargoylkes and brought
>|back to life with magic. In essence, he was Cybermanced with Blood Magic.
>|He doesn't count.)
>
>Exactly what I was thinking....
>I like it....
>Think I'll save that....
>
Cool, thanks... Glad someone saw it, read it, and responded... made the
writing worth while...;]
I guess even when no one responds to a post like that, at least you know it
didn;t suck too badly and must seem somewhat balanced. Cause guys on this
list wouldf jump all over you if they thought it was unbalanced or just
plain silly... <grin>
Either that, or they just plain have my idiot posts killfiled...;]
Bull-the-Hey!-When-did-this-become-the-Gargoyle-Mailing-List?-Ork-Decker
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]
The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html
"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:31:46 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: ping
In-Reply-To: <199707040521.AAA12014@****.mcp.com> from "Justin Bell" at
Jul 4,
97 00:21:32 am
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|
|are my messages getting through?
Will you PLEASE read the FAQ!
It specifically states DO NOT PING the list!
There is a noiseless means to find out if you're on, and that is simply to
e-mail listserv@***tproc.itribe.net and query shadowrn.
If you want a copy of your mails, SET SHADOWRN REPRO.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:46:21 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970704033217.61e72dbe@********.linknet.net> from
"John Dukes" at Jul 4, 97 03:35:57 am
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|I wish the system had magic based as a learnable skill... like anyone has
|the natural talent to use magic, however the years of training required to
|harness the ability is beyond the willpower of most people... like say any
|mundane given enough years of study could learn magic... I dont like the
|idea of magic being based entirely on genetics...
The magic level isn't high enough yet in shadowrun.
In Earthdawn however, that's exactly how it is.
ATM though, only people born with the talent can access it.
Hmmm... How about introducing Level 3 mages? (i.e. people with ONE special
ability and nothing else magical, to reflect on the increase in Magic???
Say, like, a human chooses magic at 3, and can choose ONE ability.
He could choose, say, one spell (but not get sorcery or pool), or astral
sight, or telekinesis, or whatever he wanted).
That'd make a nice evolution in the game.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 16:49:35 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 04 Jul 1997 13:22:21 -0700"
<19970704202221.17246.rocketmail@*****.rocketmail.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
You wrote:
> That's exaclty the same way we handle it in our game, and I really
> like the game balance we've seen as a result.
Well, since SMGs have damage codes now equivalent to heavy pistols, and
comparable concealabilities, why _ever_ bother with a heavy pistol? Why
wouldn't they have been phased out long ago? Why do people now prefer
(sometimes) a Colt Python to a .38 service revolver? Because it does more
damage, that's why. Some distinction between SMG calibers and heavy pistol
calibers (here I mean 9-10mm and the .44mag/11mm respectively) needs to be
made. Otherwise, no one will carry a heavy pistol unless they just like the
style better, whereas in reality (don't cringe when I say that) there are
reasons to want the hand cannon that is the Ruger Warhawk or equivalent. They
knock *big* holes in things with one shot, whereas SMGs and assault rifles
concentrate on sending multiple lighter rounds at the target at once. The m16
round is honestly little, as are most SMG rounds, compared to any manstopping
handgun.
And in a game balance light, reducing heavy pistols to 7M? Hmm, 2M to resist,
no one ever worries about pistols hurting them any more. The to-hit is harder
than the resistance test... Although if you've found it balanced i nyour
compaigns, more power to you, I know what it'd do to mine.
losthalo, just babbling, don't mind me
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:59:01 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: introduction
In-Reply-To: <199707041424.QAA14159@***.zeelandnet.nl> from "Gabriel" at
Jul
4, 97 04:26:28 pm
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|
|Hail to all!
Hello.... I imagine the Bull bot will be by shortly, if he manages to get
past his bug ridden front end....
:)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 16:58:41 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 04 Jul 1997 15:23:17 -0500"
<199707042023.PAA32462@*******.fgi.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
You wrote:
> On another note, please consider taking elemental effect spells (e.g.
> fireball and hellblast) out of the combat spell section and making them
> damaging manipulations. Elemental effects on combat spells get kinda
> strange and there's been an endless debate/rant about the "real" drain
codes
> for Hellblast and the effects it would have. Simply moving these
> complicating aspects from one section and placing them in another would make
> life a lot simpler all around.
Agreed, DMs seem to belong to Manipulations, Combat Spells being sort-of an odd
category to begin with... Basically Combat spells are those which damage an
aura directly, why should they even be capable of Elemental Effects? I've
tried to explain it to players, only to find it doesn't make any sense to me.
Make Fireball a DM. :) This will also make the distinction between the two
categories clearer to new players.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 17:04:08 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 04 Jul 1997 21:46:21 +0100"
<4160.199707042046@******.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
You wrote:
> Hmmm... How about introducing Level 3 mages? (i.e. people with ONE special
> ability and nothing else magical, to reflect on the increase in Magic???
> Say, like, a human chooses magic at 3, and can choose ONE ability.
> He could choose, say, one spell (but not get sorcery or pool), or astral
> sight, or telekinesis, or whatever he wanted).
You could even do a GURPS-style chargen wherein everything you get you pay some
points for, and you just decide how much to invest in Attributes, Skills,
Resources, Magical Aptitude, etc. I haven't read the Companion, but it seemst
o lean in this direction, shouldn't be impossible (though it'd take some
numbers crunching to get it balanced) to do this.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:11:44 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
In-Reply-To: <970704123011_847095145@*******.mail.aol.com> from "Steve
Kenson"
at Jul 4, 97 12:30:11 pm
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|NightLife has 3 successes more than Caric, so he stages the damage of the
|spell down to Light and takes a Light wound. (The extra success has no
|effect). If the spell had been manabolt, NightLife would have taken a
|Moderate wound.
That's how it SHOULD be in ShR II.
Unfotunately, it isn't unless you make house rules.
One success was all Nightlife needed to prevent the damage using 2nd Ed.
(In first edition, all spells started with Base damage L, but had variable
stagings. Darts had staging of 3, making it difficult to up the damage,
bolts had staging of one, making it dead easy..... In this case too, the
damage would have been resisted.... But in this case, the target for
resisting was sorcery....)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:13:45 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
In-Reply-To: <199707041657.QAA126096@****.ibm.net> from "Drekhead" at Jul
5,
97 12:54:44 pm
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|
|On 4 Jul 97 at 0:30, NightLife wrote:
|
|> At last a smiley. No I'm stressing drain not damage. Stun doesn't
|> equal damage.
|
|It doesn't? Then why are there target number mods?
And why does punching someone in the face do STUN?
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 16:19:24 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 09:46 PM 7/4/97 +0100, Spike wrote:
>Hmmm... How about introducing Level 3 mages? (i.e. people with ONE special
>ability and nothing else magical, to reflect on the increase in Magic???
>Say, like, a human chooses magic at 3, and can choose ONE ability.
>He could choose, say, one spell (but not get sorcery or pool), or astral
>sight, or telekinesis, or whatever he wanted).
>That'd make a nice evolution in the game.....
Check out the Shadowrun Companion Edges & Flaws section (pg. 33). You can
pick up an Edge which will allow you very limited magical ability. My only
suggestion here would be watch the player who takes this carefully, it's
easy to powergame (why spend 2 magic points for astral perception as a
physad when you can spend 3 Edge points?).
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:21:46 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells -- Level 6?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970704124452.006cb228@****.lis.ab.ca> from "Adam
J"
at Jul 4, 97 12:44:52 pm
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|>Just one thing: Caric would be veeeeery stupid if he had learnt the
|>spell at level 4. Why not at level 6? costs just 2 spell points
|>more, while it makes the spell really deadly. This was a problem in
|>my group: every single combat spell was at level 6, and there was no
|
|This is my biggest pet peeve, and I'm in the middle of writing an article
|about it for TSS. Characters will 4 or 5 skills/spells at 6, and nothing
|lower.
I don't blame you. My personal rule on buying spells is 4 or 5 for a few
combat spells, 1 for health spells, and 2 or 3 for various others.
The only spells I'd go the full six on are threshold spells, like control
thoughts or control actions....
I like having a lot of different spells, as opposed to being BAMBAM.....
:)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:24:11 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
In-Reply-To: <19970704.145434.19815.2.lobo1@****.com> from "John E
Pederson"
at Jul 4, 97 02:55:51 pm
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|Ah, but we know how the body screens out the various nasties, by use of
|things like the intestines and lungs as well as the immune system. But
|how does *cyber* do it?
The same way kidney machines do it now.
They just finally found a way to minaturise that big thing on the trolley to
a managable size....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:25:55 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
---"Bruce H. Nagel" wrote:
>
> You wrote:
> > That's exaclty the same way we handle it in our game, and I really
> > like the game balance we've seen as a result.
>
> Well, since SMGs have damage codes now equivalent to heavy pistols,
and
> comparable concealabilities, why _ever_ bother with a heavy pistol?
Why
> wouldn't they have been phased out long ago?
Legality/permits. Weight. Quick draw. Ever try to put an SMG in a
concealable holster?
> And in a game balance light, reducing heavy pistols to 7M? Hmm, 2M
to resist,
> no one ever worries about pistols hurting them any more.
Exactly why we ruled as thus. This makes alot more sense when Lone
Star's street cops (as an example) are wearing armor jackets or plated
vests as stock gear. More often then not, the opposition they
encounter on patrol will be bearing pistols and this stopping power
against a 6M round is what you'd be looking for. Against 9Mor 10M with
a Ballisting Armor or 4 or 5 your cops are getting waxed quite easily,
and you'd have to go to layering armor or security armor as a standard.
> Although if you've found it balanced i nyour
> compaigns, more power to you, I know what it'd do to mine.
We've done just that. It has made a lot of difference in game balance,
and the rule was actually brought up and approved by our group's hand
gun connoisseur.
> losthalo, just babbling, don't mind me
Just replying...
===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:42:22 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
In-Reply-To: <199707042119.QAA02214@*******.fgi.net> from "TopCat" at Jul
4,
97 04:19:24 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
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|Check out the Shadowrun Companion Edges & Flaws section (pg. 33). You can
|pick up an Edge which will allow you very limited magical ability. My only
|suggestion here would be watch the player who takes this carefully, it's
|easy to powergame (why spend 2 magic points for astral perception as a
|physad when you can spend 3 Edge points?).
That's why I suggested it as an option for setting magic one further level
below adepts.
It allows one ability, but if you're a physad, you can't have both.
The bloke is just a normal, VERY slightly magical guy.
(Think X-Files and all the wierdos they have on that Like the bloke who can
control lightning, or the telekinetics/telepathics/etc).
He could be a rigger or decker, or even a merc or sam (as long as he didn't
screw his essence up too much).....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 18:33:02 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
On Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:24:11 +0100 Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
writes:
>|Ah, but we know how the body screens out the various nasties, by use
>of
>|things like the intestines and lungs as well as the immune system.
>But
>|how does *cyber* do it?
>
>The same way kidney machines do it now.
>They just finally found a way to minaturise that big thing on the
>trolley to
>a managable size....
Question then: Assuming that a dialysis machine does this by running
*all* of the body's blood through it, doesn't that mean that a blood
filter would have to be placed somewhere that *all* the person's blood
would go through? However, it doesn't necessarily catch the toxin before
damage is done, so you'd want to put it somewhere it could catch the
toxin before it could do damage. And the only places I can think of that
would work would be on the portal vein, the aorta and the vena cava, as
well as the vessels exchanging blood between heart and lungs (can't
remember what they're called). That's mainly being thorough:) That would
be, in my mind, some serious surgery. And even if you only get that much
stuff on by the time you get to something like the level 10 filter,
you're talking some seriously nasty surgery (having looked, this is
probably pretty well evidenced by the equally nasty Essence cost, so I'll
shut up now).
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:43:00 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Kim Christiansen <kimc@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Exocybernetics
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
> From: Mark Imbriaco <mark@******.NET>
> Subject: Re: Exocybernetics
> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:58:50 -0400
>
> What I did was treat the powered suit as a vehicle, and have
> the characters control it as such .. with a few limitations.
> Some of the systems could only be operated by those with a
> datajack or vehicle control rig, but other than that it
> was done using (pretty much) the vehicle rules.
>
> -Mark
Why not some real BIG armor... oh, sorry, wrong game.
But think of it, mech suits that carry the firepower of an MBT!
Controlled via a rig, with advanced avionics almost anything is possible,
even short flight. (lets get serious here, physics is still around and
moving
a few tons of armor ain't easy by anyone's standards.
kim
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 18:54:08 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
On Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:56:46 -0500 Barbie <barbie@**********.COM> writes:
>At 03-Jul-97 wrote Tim Cooper:
>
>
>>Eh?
>>Wouldn't it be easier if it was expressed as:
>>(all the decimal numbers multiplied together) x (height in inches)^3
>
>>..and even then where'd that formula come from?
>
>Sure it would be simpler, but I never used it that way. So I posted it
the way I had it in mind.
>And the formula come from the Rolemaster Compainion I back in the late
eighties.
>They had a similiar problem then.
>The whole section is about one page of weight/mass/race stuff very
interresting.
Ahhhh... thank you.
I've always wondered why Rolemaster got such a bad rap about being overly
complex or something, and now I understand. :)
~Tim (still not understanding WHY anyone wouldn't simplify formula...)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 09:35:17 +1000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
In-Reply-To: <199707030111.VAA13944@*********.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> Steve Kenson once dared to write,
>
> >So... now you know why I need to know what people think needs to be fixed in
> >the Shadowrun magic system, since it will be my main contribution to the new
> >edition.
>
> Force Points at Character Generation. (Like every one on the list
> didn't expect me to bring this point up). Which adepts get them in the
> first place (1st edition spell casting adepts only ruling or the not
> mentioned approach in 2nd). Also what are the only things these points
> are allowed to be spent on and if there are any optional rulings for it
> as well.
And please, clear definitions on the terms "mage", "magician",
"adept"
etc, and exactly to whom they apply in any situation... :)
Lady Jestyr
-----------------------------------------------
All stressed out and no-one to choke...
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home..ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 09:39:26 +1000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION! [Binding]
In-Reply-To: <6F5DA97899@**.opp.psu.edu>
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> Hey, can I get my name in this?
*grin* That was the first thing I thought of, too... :)
Lady Jestyr
-----------------------------------------------
All stressed out and no-one to choke...
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:10:06 -1000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "... ..." <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
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>As physads are now, they're perfect.
Someone who agrees! Thanks TopCat!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:10:32 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Slight Rules Bitching (was Re: Magical drain)
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In a message dated 97-07-04 15:36:58 EDT, daddyjim@**********.COM (Loki)
writes:
>
> I can sympathize with you here, I've had a couple of my players want
> to splinter off and start GMing there own groups outside of when we're
> playing. The core group has tried to stay away from anyone else really
> playing in under these other GM's to avoid squabbles coming up like
> "Well, Loki ruled it this way" or "Asher has decided to use the house
> rule in his game and I like it better."
This is one of the few things that can really piss me off, at least as far as
gaming is concerned. In the end, what seems to keep happening is that
friendships get harmed by many, maybe not all, but many involved.
>
> We've kicked around ideas off and on about alternating between two
> games each Saturday (our regular gaming night) so I'd get a chance to
> play as well as GM. So far we haven't because an underlying feeling
> has been to alternate not just between GM's but also gaming systems.
> We want to avoid confusion between my and their GMing styles, the
> rulings and house rules, as well as S/R world I've built up with the
> group over the last several years.
Same here on my end, but we usually restrict ourselves to SR...what we've
been flat out stating is that the GM's simply don't mix storylines, unless
they both/all agree to confer on the basic line.
>
> > And now that I'm gonna be hitting some Cons, and meet a few other
> players,
> > the one thing coming to my mind is "How differnt is my game compared
> to
> > others?"
>
> Understood, same concerns on my part. Hell, when I started in Victor's
> PBEM game I had to bounce a few clarifications off him with his style
> before I started making my character.
I don't know if I said it here on RN or on the Rec.games, but in the end, ALL
of us can be downright nervous the first time or two encountering other GM
styles, and I've seen people respond as if they are -always- playing the game
(insert favorite system here) a certain way, just so they can look more tame
or more -realistic- to the proposed game cliche.
>
> > I've even had someone want to play a fragging Kender from Dragonlace
> > in SR.
>
> Got a Kender NPC that "oops'd" his way into S/R, but I won't go there.
> ;o)
And I'm certain that we all have had our terms of game crossovers, even if it
is just an idea (the mildest) to a direct character translation (stronger
variations DO occur).
> > I have no problems with addidng stuff to the game, or modifying
> rules to
> > suit a particular game (i.e., a lower powered game you would want
> less
> > money/power in the characters)...But when you start fragging up a
> lot of
> > rules, just because you can;t come to grps with the way they are
> intended
> > to run, and no one wants to bother explaining WHY they work the way
> they
> > do, then it gets annoying...
>
> Agreed again. Why pay 35¥ for a Rule Book if you're gonna rewrite 1/2
> of it yourself anyways.
Because you often need a basis to begin with. I've designed game systems,
did it for a Psychology Project WAY back from my days at Purdue. Try
developing a game based on coins...an entire system, not something around a
little card table like a game of cards (no insult against those gamers that
use card tables... ;)
>
> > Hope this made sense, and I hope noone takes offence...
>
> Nope. Well said and no offense taken, I think we're in the same
> ballpark on this one.
Very Much Agree
>
> > I don;t want to strat a long drawn out flame
> > war. We've had enough of them lately...
>
> I'll refrain from too much comment, since I think my feelings on this
> reference have been noted. :o)
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:13:36 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Healing Magic (Re: [SR3] Drain)
In a message dated 97-07-04 15:53:56 EDT, gurth@******.NL (Gurth) writes:
>
> There are always Heal or Treat spells; I'm not in favor of doing this, but
> it is possible and totally legal to cast a spell that gives physical
> drain, and then use Heal/Treat to remove that damage again. You're looking
> at a higher TN because of your wounds, but as most magicians have an
> Essence of 6, so with a Moderate wound a Treat spell is still only looking
> at TN 4. You should get 3 successes easily, then with some Magic Pool 4
> successes on the Drain Resistance Test is also easy enough to do.
>
Okay, now this is one of those little areas that has irked me for years
now...I've had more than one character pull this stunt...so I came up with
something to give it a bit of counterbalance.
Since the magician chose to cast the magic and chose to take the risk of the
drain/damage from the casting, the 'wounds' are a bit more tricky. Stronger
magic, that much more so. Hence, I have two options. (A) the drain code is
that of the Spell they just threw around or (B) the target number for the
Health Magic is increased by the Force of the spell they just lobbed.
This way the trick is still usable, but a bit harder...
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:15:00 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In a message dated 97-07-04 16:03:01 EDT, NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
(Bruce H. Nagel) writes:
>
> How about this for limiting the effectiveness of magicians: delete Magic
> Pool.
> Force them to resist Drain and incoming spells like everyone else, without
a
> bonus pool of dice to draw upon. Let Sorcery limit the maximum Force of
> spells
> they can cast along with Magic Attribute. Less discretionary dice to
throw
> into augmenting the spell or resisting drain, and he's going to be more
> careful
> about what he casts...
>
> losthalo
Admittedly, I have seen this, but to be fair (I'm asking for this one I know)
then go ahead and delete karma pool, combat pool, dodge pool, the swimming
pool, etc...basically anything and everything to make things a bit more
intensely interesting and possibly a bit more survivable.
-K
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:17:00 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In a message dated 97-07-04 16:15:59 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK (Spike)
writes:
>
> Errr....
>
> How exactly? If you can't see someone, you can't cast.
> The only spells you'd be able to cast would be touch or self affecting
> spells....
> --
>
Actually, there are modifiers for blindness in the books and they are
applicable, unless of course the GM/Group agrees on the argument of Aura
Symmetry (how spells are ground into manifestation in the first place), and
then it wouldn't work at all, you are correct. Also, be VERY careful of
Clairvoyance and Mind Link, they can really change the way things are
handled.
-K
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:18:18 -1000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "... ..." <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Healing Magic (Re: [SR3] Drain)
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>>Treat/Heal drain damage
>This is one of those tricky areas...
House rule we use, and I know it hurts the mages somethin' fierce
sometimes, is that magic cannot effect the mage casting.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 10:21:34 +1000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <970703131213_-1293565612@*******.mail.aol.com>
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> OK, survey question #2 (following up on the Pet Peeves thread):
>
> Many people have suggested setting Spell Drain TNs back at Force instead of
> F/2. What do people think of this? Please remember, I need to know WHY you
> think the idea is good or bad.
We actually are using a variant house rule on this. We've said that any
spell which adversely affects another (anything from Combat spels to
Damaging Manipulations, to Influence, Control Thoughts etc) is based of
Force drain, the rest are at F/2.
This makes magic still a very useful tool, but not overpoweringly grisly
and dangerous. (You might want to do something about the drain code on
Sterilise. D drain? Yeouch... they're only measly li'l bacteria...) The
rationalisation was that spells which damage or control others are much
harder to cast because you have to struggle against the target's aura to
do so. Stuff like pHysical Mask is different.
And no, I don't want this to turn into a debate about how magic works
(stay away, Mr. Stainless Steel Rat!); I was presenting this as our
house rule. Please excuse my rabid frothings if you don't like them. :)
Lady Jestyr
-----------------------------------------------
All stressed out and no-one to choke...
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:22:57 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In a message dated 97-07-04 17:12:30 EDT, runefo@***.UIO.NO (Fade) writes:
> > And of course if
> > > exclusivity and fetishes was not part of the picture, then a drain of
> > > F would be far too much; F/2 would then be fair.
> > Aha!! Yes. Work on the part of the system that's a problem. :)
>
> Well, I said in another post that these two subjects are connected
> and *REALLY* should be discussed together.. :)
> QUESTION: What house rules do people use to regulate this?
>
>
Sure can, Round UP on the drain codes, as it states in the books, only the
Otaku get the "round in their favor" attitude. Initiation for magicians also
gets to round down, but that is about it.
-K
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:28:10 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Resisting Spell Force (Re: [SR3] Combat Spells)
In a message dated 97-07-04 18:19:40 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK (Spike)
writes:
>
> (In first edition, all spells started with Base damage L, but had variable
> stagings. Darts had staging of 3, making it difficult to up the damage,
> bolts had staging of one, making it dead easy..... In this case too, the
> damage would have been resisted.... But in this case, the target for
> resisting was sorcery....)
>
> --
>
The only problem that came of this was that it became easier on the economy
of karma to make EVERYTHING lethal and take nothing for drain or spell usage.
Simply up the Sorcery skill and buy/learn/develop a bunch of spells at force
1. That is the PRIME reason for the changes in SRII. I'm not saying that
SRII is great, but it -IS- better in many ways than SRI...sure, not all, but
many.
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:28:50 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Combat Pool (was Re: [SR3] Drain)
In a message dated 97-07-04 18:28:28 EDT, gurth@******.NL (Gurth) writes:
>
> Perhaps Combat Pool should be based on skills as well as on attributes.
> SR1 had Dodge Pool and Defense Pool; the former (equal to Quickness) was
> used to dodge incoming attacks, the latter (equal to the skill being used)
> was for melee combat only. If you're not happy with the way Combat Pool
> works in SRII, you could re-introduce the Defense and Dodge pools like
> this.
>
>
That idea was intro'd in SR Companion...
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:51:02 -1000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "... ..." <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
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>initiation is a collosal rip-off for physads.
We nixed zero grade for physads.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:48:52 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: NPC maintenance
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Any GMs out there have good tips for keeping NPCs easily? I was thinking
of using index cards, but feel that might require a lot of writing. Are
there any computer programs out there that make life easier when it comes
to NPC generation and/or filing? The only program I have found is on
Paolo's site, but the address is incorrect.
Help! :)
Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:56:57 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
In a message dated 97-07-04 19:43:00 EDT, Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT (Simon T.
Sailer) writes:
>
> Ok, after having read your explanations, I see why cyber surgery is
> that expensive. (I still find it too expensive... but since I have no
> idea which tools are needed to implant a cyberarm, this discussion
> might lead to nowhere)
> But what if there is no cyber or bioware
> involved? what if you just have a arm amputated, which counts as
> drastic invasive surgery, but should be a real routine job.
I guess I can agree with you there, the rules are a bit out of touch in these
regards. However, if someone were to want complete compatibility, then the
only way for COMPLETE to occur is if the aura's are synchronized fully.
Remember, though the flesh may remember, the Spirit knows the lies for what
they are.
> > Alpha, Beta, and Gamma (and whatever comes next, in the games here,
> > it was Delta and Theta)
>
> I've never heard of theta or gamma cyberware... where are they
> mentioned? (Fasa does not seem to stick to the greek alphabet... they
> are mixing upo the letters.. ;-)
Delta (Gamma) Class Cyberware is mentioned in the Cybertechnology
book...Sorry about the Theta Grade mentioning, that is something for the
House Rules' here after the space games...
> IMHO, magicians are only involved in cybermantic procedures... it
> would be prohibitively expensive to employ a mage who waches the
> patients aura... I guess in 2055, computers are advanced enough to do
> that jobat lower cost.
Sadly, no computer as yet can see the aura...if you get into Kirlian
Photography (OLD Topic), then who knows...
> > But those are just part of it, sorry if I lost you in any of it.
> > -Keith
>
> Thanks for the answer.
>
> ss
Not a Problem
-K
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:44:07 GMT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Shadowrun ML demon <shadowrn-ml@*******.hanse.de>"
<shadowrn-ml@*******.HANSE.DE>
Organization: Nightmare on Coin Street
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM> writes:
> OK, survey question #2 (following up on the Pet Peeves thread):
> Many people have suggested setting Spell Drain TNs back at Force instead of
> F/2. What do people think of this? Please remember, I need to know WHY you
> think the idea is good or bad.
I vote for F/2, too - some people think it is not enough, but that is
mainly because they let their mages gain insane amount of Karma... we
never had a problem with the spells. If the drain was based on F, you
could as well change it to: A mage can throw X Spells a day like in
AD&D or other fantasy RPGs - kinda the same thing. I think I don't
have to say I think this sucks.
The only real problem we always have is that mages imbalance the
situation by their astral activities - they just spot everything and
it is impossible to hide properly. I sometimes wish the range of
astral senses would be kinda more limited or less connected to the
mundane plane.
Later,
Georg
- --
Georg C. F. Greve <greve@*******.hanse.de>
http://porter.desy.de/~greve/
"People who fight may lose. People who do not
fight have already lost." -- Bertold Brecht
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 01:28:49 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <970703131213_-1293565612@*******.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In message <970703131213_-1293565612@*******.mail.aol.com>, Steve Kenson
<TalonMail@***.COM> writes
>OK, survey question #2 (following up on the Pet Peeves thread):
>
>Many people have suggested setting Spell Drain TNs back at Force instead of
>F/2. What do people think of this? Please remember, I need to know WHY you
>think the idea is good or bad.
While I'm somewhat anti-magic (SR1 made them too powerful), SR2 fixed
the balance in my opinion. Magiciains in SR2 are potent, but the spells
hurt to cast at high Force, low-force spells aren't too effective, and
generally the system works.
I wouldn't like to see magicians cut down the way physical adepts were
in SR2: yes, with autosucesses the powergamed SR1 physad was obscene,
but many balanced and playable PCs needed creative adaptation to bring
into SR2 without emasculation. The end result worked reasonably, but I
feel personally that FASA overcompensated somewhat on physical adepts
for SR2.
I'd personally suggest limiting magical initiative increases rather than
increasing Drain. They want to be fast, they get Wired Reflexes and the
corresponding Essence lost, or risk spell locks and quickenings (and
have those, or long-term Increase Reaction spells, have a painful cost).
Otherwise, they are slower than the samurai, but much more powerful and
especially much more flexible (the firepower of a samurai, the stealth
of a physad, the reconnaisance capability of a rigger...)
What troubles me is that a magician with magically enhanced reflexes and
Enhanced Aim can out-samurai a samurai, with Extended Range Clairvoyance
can out-reconnaisance a rigger, and still do many other things besides.
Call me old-fashioned, but given what cost Wired Reflexes or a VCR can
entail I prefer to make their benefits a little harder to attain by
magic than in SR2.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 01:13:19 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
In-Reply-To: <8830100D79@********.uibk.ac.at>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In message <8830100D79@********.uibk.ac.at>, "Simon T. Sailer"
<Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT> writes
>Good Idea, but the cost's are way too high... 250k nuyen is a joke
>even for drastic invasive surgery.
For the cost of delicate neural interfacing, it sounds about right.
They're spinning gold thread into the most delicate parts of your brain,
you're pinching pennies when the cost of a mistake is - for you - a
lifetime as a vegetable?
>And no player could ever hope to
>pay this for delta-grade sugery. Maybe i'ts intended to be that way,
>but 50 millions just for the surgery....
As things stand, if you have access to delta-grade cyber, whoever is
letting you get it is probably covering the surgery costs in exchange
for reports about its performance in the field (remember, delta-grade is
cutting edge, available in only a dozen clinics...)
It's a plot hook rather than a "I have =Y%,000, I want a deltaware
smartlink" decision.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 01:02:56 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
In-Reply-To: <01IKSAORCPNG9I47D3@******.acs.muohio.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
>(Think of this in the same way as Firearms, a hunter has only
>the Rifle concentration, whereas a Merc has the general skill which covers
>_many_ firearms)
Not necessarily.
Many mercenaries will know how to fire an AK-series weapon and... er...
Point to note: while I was in the British Army I shot thousands of
rounds of rifle, a few hundred rounds of GPMG, a few dozen rounds of
pistol, and four rounds from an 84mm Carl Gustav. I never fired a SMG,
even when it was still an official issue (though I did train extensively
in how to use one, and could have made good use of it if necessary).
I never laid hands on a guided missile (MILAN or SWINGFIRE), any MG
heavier than a GPMG or Bren, or a 66mm or 94mm LAW. This in five years
of very lively reservist training.
I did, though, recieve hands-on training on the AKM, AK-74, RPK, RPG-2,
RPG-7, RPG-18, Dragunov SVD (a very nice weapon for its intended role)
and Makarov PVD, and I also got some informal instruction in the care
and feeding of the M-16A2 from a friendly soldier in the 335th Battalion
of the 101st Airborne during an exercise.
The point? Just that picking up an unfamiliar weapon shouldn't be
totally easy, even leaving aside the zero on the sights; where the hell
is the magazine release? Is that thing there the safety? No, it's a
takedown latch, and you just shot a toe off discovering that. Et cetera.
If you have a few minutes to figure it out, or thirty seconds of "safety
here, slide release here, mag release here, there you go..." from
someone who knows the weapon, fine.
If not... the first exposure to an Ares Alpha could be amusing. Do you
take the safety clips off the minigrenades during loading or not? How do
you strip and clean it? Which parts need TLC, and which can be beasted
with Scotchbrite and Tabasco sauce? Et cetera.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 01:36:15 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Sub-Runners
In-Reply-To: <199707031745.LAA06887@******>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In message <199707031745.LAA06887@******>, David Buehrer
<dbuehrer@****.ORG> writes
>Doh! Sorry, I forgot that I had planned for CAS and Ares to attempt
>to disable and capture the sub, because destoying the sub and
>releasing the chemicals would be a *very* bad thing. So, how do you
>think Ares and CAS forces are going to go about trying to
>capture/disable the sub? And what happens when they try to keep the
>other one from getting the sub first?
Read the novel of "The Hunt For Red October": it's a very good book, and
teaches a lot about submarine warfare. It also centres on the hunt for a
rogue boomer.
Disabling a submarine without sinking it is an extremely difficult task.
A nuclear-powered submarine doesn't run out of fuel or air, and can run
faster than you can hunt unless you have air assets with sonobuoys or
dipping sonar. Any attack powerful enough to damage the sub risks
cracking the pressure hull, dropping the electrics, rupturing a HP air
flask, or triggering one of the scores of single-point failure modes
that a submarine is prone to.
>I was just thinking of tossing however many feels right, enough to
>present a challenge, but not so many as to kill the runners. I also
>want to burn through their karma pool before they face the bad guy's
>head thugs.
For today, an Ohio-class SSBN has a listed crew of 155, a Los Angeles-
class SSN has a complement of 133.
For a 2050s bomber boat, figure on around a hundred crew.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 02:01:06 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
In-Reply-To: <199707040714.CAA01459@*******.fgi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In article <199707040714.CAA01459@*******.fgi.net>, TopCat
<topcat@***.NET> rambled on endlessly about Runner's Attitudes
<big snip - because it's this bit in particular that I wish to answer>
>Have you seen the camera? Do you know that there aren't others? Do you
>know that there are no further security measures present? Is there only one
>camera?
OK, before a debate on cameras ensues, I would suggest that anyone
considering such a reply should watch some extremely informative
programs on CCTV (closed circuit television). These cameras exist
everywhere, shopping malls, street corners, highways (monitoring traffic
flow) and a miriad of other places. In cases where garages are being
broken into, and car spares stolen it is possible to place a camera that
is no larger than a match book, the lens is about the size of a UK
penny, or US cent. Utilising current technoloy, the lens on the camera
gives a clear - very clear, still or motion picture view of the area,
this area can cover several hundred square metres. The camera is, to
all intents and purposes "invisible". Stuck in the rafters of the
garage/warehouse, it is incredibly difficult to spot, unless you know
precisely where the thing is. These units alone are available to the
common user for about 800 Uk pounds - say 1,000 US. Now that's just one
example of the kind of preventative measures available today.
An informative series of programs was aired on the Discovery channel
recently (for those who get it) covering exactly this type of
technology. It's a serious and extensive situation that has some highly
organised opposition to it, on the grounds that CCTV is a direct breach
of privacy - however, as of yet, US, UK and European governments don't
agree with that, they view it as a means of crime prevention.. and under
that tag - anything is plausible.
Corporations in California are installing CCTV to monitor staff and
their loyalty to the company, in offices, lavatories, washrooms,
corridors and other areas - this is without informaing the staff. When
questioned about the installation of the cameras, it is covered by the
simple expedient of "security", at which point the units are ignored and
forgotten by the majority of staff. A court case a couple of years back
brought the situation to the public view, with an incident that resulted
in the sacking of several members of staff for "unpleasant verbal
opinions" of the company they worked for. These workers sued the
corporation unsuccessfully, opening a precedent for other companies and
corporations in the US, and probably other countries to install CCTV
without informing the staff in a effort to combat espionage and spiteful
sabotage by disgruntled employees. Basically the Court allowed that the
corporation was not only allowed to install these monitoring devices,
but was correct in doing so.
So, TopCats view on undectable cameras, isn't unfortunately incorrect.
Extrapolating this nasty little concept into 205*, and you have a high
tech situation where pretty much anything is possible. In my games CCTV
is used extensively to monitor the heavy traffic experienced in the
metroplexes, to assist and complement Law Enforcment patrols, (in much
the same way as it is used in city centres and trouble spots in the UK),
it's not 100% foolproof, and can be spoofed by electronic counter
measures, not something generally available to the public. :) Although
I don't agree with Bob's severe and brutal thoughts on corporate power,
I do agree that they are tough mothers, and certain areas of corporate
facilities, and certain installations are going to possses intensive, if
not state of the art security systems.
Certain situations don't require heavy duty equipment to protect things,
so the main concentration of security is going to be in intensive areas.
I use that concept as a warning to my players that they are stepping
into the realms of "serious" when they are inside a company building.
The rest of the coverage is likely to be down to locked doors - always a
favourite way of "discouraging" casual crime, monocolour video feeds to
a recording centre which is monitored by one or two permanent guards.
In certain offices pressure pads and motion detectors. Large companies
will have a permanent security on hand, for a reference on how that
security is likely to be set up, watch the beginning of Die Hard.
Although not representative, it's a useful pointer.
The camera however, is always a favourite, in fact, in a recent game, my
players used a patch into traffic monitoring cameras, to find something
out, so they can be friendly as well as the worst kind of enemy for a
Shadowrunner.
Top level areas are going to be covered by all sorts of exotic items,
but this doesn't mean they are impregnable, US military bases aren't
impregnable, and lose materials or items from time to time, as do other
places throughout the world, so even with todays paranoia, it's possible
to get in and out, relatively undetected, certainly unidentified. But,
it takes a great deal of planning, expense, thought and skill.
Blundering in through the main doors and indulging in a running gun
battle with security isn't exactly sensible and certainly not effective
penetration of secure areas.
I guess what I'm trying to say, is that up to a point TopCat is right
about security levels, I just feel that he's a tad over the top in
brutality when it comes to reaction and reprisals. Myself, I encourage
players to use thought, care and very careful planning if they are going
to infiltrate something that is considered "secure" - even light
security. I don't however, follow the "they broke in and stole
something - kill 'em" attitude. Yes, certain levels of loss would
require certain levels of reprisal, however, even the mega corp has to
consider it's public image, and cost effectiveness of a manhunt, not to
mention the possible international incidents that may arise from a -
shall we say - "mistake".
--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:36:25 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: NPC maintenance
In-Reply-To: <199707050055.UAA07435@****.provide.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 20:48 7/4/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Any GMs out there have good tips for keeping NPCs easily? I was thinking
>of using index cards, but feel that might require a lot of writing. Are
>there any computer programs out there that make life easier when it comes
>to NPC generation and/or filing? The only program I have found is on
>Paolo's site, but the address is incorrect.
I'm currently working on a NPC database program, although its still in its
very rough stages. Actually I'm working on a multifaceted Shadowrun
program called Pocket Secretary. (Original name, not.. but I like it.) My
tendancy to do WAY too many things at once has left it in its infancy
still, but the features I'm planning on it having:
* Dice rolling and initiative.
* Random LTG Number generator.
* NPC Database and Random NPC Generator
* Location Databank
* And, of course, anything else I can think of.. :) (Ideas welcome!)
I need to re-install MS Access, and then it should go speedy quick, or else
I could just use random access files to do it all.. Anyways, I think I'll
go for a nap, its hot as hell here :)
I had previously (Read, before internet access) used a MS works database
for holding NPC profiles, and it worked fairly ok.
-Aj
--
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
"Can I have a cup of angst to go with my un-happy meal?" -- Hi & Lois
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 01:09:40 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
In-Reply-To: <199707031430.KAA05372@www.ctghub.com>;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In message <199707031430.KAA05372@www.ctghub.com>;, Drekhead
<drekhead@***.NET> writes
>If you ever had an extended stay in a hospital after a surgery, you
>would realize that 250k is pretty close to realistic. All I can say
>is I'm glad I have insurance.
I still praise the Lord for the National Health System: flawed or not,
it works.
>On a similar note, a better explanation of the lifestyles. I would
>like to see more of the perks or lack of that are available to each
>lifestyle category. Have the lifestyle mean something other than a
>maintenance cost, and a roleplay hook. Perhaps social modifiers, or
>availability modifiers, or some such.
Yep. Split it out a little, too, so at Medium lifestyle you can trade
off apartment size or neighbourhood quality in order to uprate your
"routine" car from a Jackrabbit to a 295X-Terminator Turbo sports bike:
and a few more pointers about pushing the envelope of your lifestyle at
any level (like the way every teenager on that street knows you as "the
dude with the kewl bike").
>I would like to see an update to everyday life in 2058 (2059 by this
>is out, I guess). Entertainment, personal electronics, like trid,
>simsense, etc. I would like to finally find out just what a telecom
>is, does, and looks like.
Yup. Still, since Shadowrun proposed the pocket secretary seven years
before the Nokia Communicator, we can cut them _some_ slack...
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:54:53 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 04 Jul 1997 20:15:00 -0400"
<970704201459_443224402@*******.mail.aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
You wrote:
> Admittedly, I have seen this, but to be fair (I'm asking for this one I know)
> then go ahead and delete karma pool, combat pool, dodge pool, the swimming
> pool, etc...basically anything and everything to make things a bit more
> intensely interesting and possibly a bit more survivable.
I'm all for the demise of the Combat Pool. Dodge/Defense I kinda liked, but
could live without them (or some equivalent). I despise the Karma Pool as much
as Combat Pool, hate the idea of becoming permanently more lucky...
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:14:14 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NightLife wrote:
>
> At 07:09 PM 7/3/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >How about this for limiting the effectiveness of magicians: delete
> Magic Pool.
> I like that idea.
You would. how about we delete all the dice pools while we are at it,
and you decker can run about without the help of his hacking pool, your
rigger without his rigging pool, and the st sam without his combat
pool. Suddenly having a rating 6 skill/attribute becomes all the more
important, and next thing we know, skill rating or 8 (zen master level
with 20 years under his belt) will be in every runner with less than two
years practical experience.
--
Dvixen Code-word : Weevil-chuck. dvixen@********.com
"And I thought First Ones were rare." - Ivanova - Babylon 5
First High Priest of the Church of the Squooshy Ball.
Been there, done that, got the tshirt, wore it out. Now what do I wear?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:14:23 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Spike wrote:
>
> |NightLife has 3 successes more than Caric, so he stages the damage of
> the
> |spell down to Light and takes a Light wound. (The extra success has
> no
> |effect). If the spell had been manabolt, NightLife would have taken a
> |Moderate wound.
>
> That's how it SHOULD be in ShR II.
Should be? That is how we play it. Hrm... Time to take another good look
at the rules...
Guess I cast my vote in for magical attacks being resolved the same as
combat, since it never occured to me that resolving magical combat would
be any different than resolving mundane combat...
> Unfotunately, it isn't unless you make house rules.
> One success was all Nightlife needed to prevent the damage using 2nd
> Ed.
If that is what is in the books, it should be changed.
We have always played: a character gets hit by a spell doing 6M damage
(6 being the force, M being the base damage) and the caster gets two
more successes than the defender, we've done it same as mundane combat,
the two extra successes stage the damage up one, similarly, if the
defender gets two more successes, damage gets staged down.
--
Dvixen Code-word : Weevil-chuck. dvixen@********.com
"And I thought First Ones were rare." - Ivanova - Babylon 5
First High Priest of the Church of the Squooshy Ball.
Been there, done that, got the tshirt, wore it out. Now what do I wear?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:14:19 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NightLife wrote:
> Wrong! A decker can get hosed by black IC, a sammy/merc can get
> slaughtered
> in a gun battle, the rigger can get shot down just as easily. Any
> archetype
> faces certain dangers inherent in their job. There's no reason why the
> mage
> shouldn't have some danger to his profession as well.
Hrm... So the danger of having a light stun kill a mage while he is
jaunting on the astral doesn't compare? How about the magical beasites
that are attracted to magical activities. How about perhaps a decent
forensic mage being able to identify a mage because of the astral
signature his force 6 spells left behind? (and the rotten luck of having
high essense material links left behind...)
--
Dvixen Code-word : Weevil-chuck. dvixen@********.com
"And I thought First Ones were rare." - Ivanova - Babylon 5
Vodka corrupts. Abolut Vodka corrupts absolutely.
"Aren't FBI agents openminded? Silly me."
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:14:27 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NightLife wrote:
>
> At 05:37 PM 7/3/97 +0000, you wrote:
> >On 3 Jul 97 at 17:15, Fisher, Victor wrote:
> >
> >> Why doesn't everyone just use the Increased Lethality Rules for
> >> drain, listed in the Shadowrun, 2nd edition rule book, IF it suits
> their
> >> campaign, instead of trying to enforce a system wide moritorium on
> what
> >> drain should be? I thought that's what they were there for.
>
> Because a gm has to deal with whiners who can't grasp his/her reasons
> behind
> why he/she belives in the lethality rules.
If a GM can't set ground rules, then I think the GM shouldn't be.
My players, desipte their many failings, whining amongst them, don't
argue with my interpretation of the how letha the game is. It's *my*
world they are playing in. If they didn't like it, they'd play with
someone else.
--
Dvixen Code-word : Weevil-chuck. dvixen@********.com
"I'd rather have a face people fear." - Ivanova - Babylon 5
First High Priest of the Church of the Squooshy Ball.
Been there, done that, got the tshirt, wore it out. Now what do I wear?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 02:19:56 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707032134.QAA17366@********.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In message <199707032134.QAA17366@********.mcit.com>, Caric
<caric@********.COM> writes
>Try in the realm of impossible...lets assume a Sammie with a body of 6 (low
>for a Sammie if you ask me)
Human maximum is low for a samurai?
Yes, there's orthoskin or dermal plating: both of which, among other
things, have detrimental effects on your sex life. Which, personally, I
consider extremely important, and most of my characters do too.
>and the mageboy is casting Powerbolt (fairly
>common spell) if that spell is force four the mage is doing more damage (I
>know one is stun the other physical, but the mods are the same) to himself
>than he is to the Sammie and he will probably never succeed in doind any
>damage unless he lets himself get nailed with the drain.
So what?
The mage has spent a maximum of four Karma points learning that spell.
Less, probably (exclusive spell, re-usable fetish, and _one_ Karma point
buys you a Force 4 Powerbolt).
How much Karma does it cost to buy Firearms-4? Or even Ares Predator-4?
Add in the minor point that the samurai has to _have_ his Predator to
hand, loaded and ready: has to draw it and aim it: has to fire it. All
very public and noticeable events.
A magician has to look at the target, and by the harshest interpretation
make a small gesture and whisper a few words.
You have all these advantages and you're still complaining? :)
>Now if there two Sammies the mage is just
>flat out screwed.
Moral: make sure the samurai don't see you. Or don't take on two samurai
alone. These guys are _meant_ to be combat monsters. A magician with
fifty force points can learn one combat spell and take the rest in
healing, detection, manipulatiom, et al. Samurai focus on combat.
After I give up most of my Essence and starting cash for cyber and a
third of my skill points for Firearms skill, I want to be a lethal
combat machine that others tread lightly around. I don't like it when
the team mage can out-recon the rigger, out-fight the samurai and out-
heal the paramedic all at once.
I don't personally like the idea of "combat magic". Does anyone remember
Fred Saberhagen's "Books of Swords"? Where magic was powerful and
effective... until swords were drawn, whereupon magicians tended to find
places to hide. Magic is the most versatile and powerful force in
Shadowrun as it is: demanding that magicians, by virtue of two spells,
be as potent as street samurai cuts no ice with me.
Want to outshoot a samurai? Get wired reflexes and a smartlink and
Firearms skill better than his. Or else pit spells against Mach 2 lead.
>I'm saying that mages should have at least a chance of hurting a Sammie
>without killing themselves.
Why?
I _hated_ SR1's balance of magic and cyber, where with a fetish focus a
locked Combat Sense spell left magicians totally out-reacting samurai:
and where magicians avoided armour autosuccesses they could kill
multiple enemies per action, while Firearms-8, a smartgun link and APDS
ammo couldn't guarantee to take down a single adversary in one action.
A human samurai in my own experience tends to put Attributes at A, Tech
at B, Skills at C. (We used to use 'sum-to-ten' in which case read
Attributes A, Skills B, Tech B). That gets you wired reflexes at level
2, good attributes, and Firearms-6.
Why should a magician be able to dish out more hurt than he takes to
such a character - one who has sacrificed as much to skill-at-arms as
the magician has to magic - without corresponding injury? Why, in fact,
play a non-magician at all?
Magicians _must_ be weaker than other character types in those types'
area of expertise, or else you will see all-mage character groups. It
takes a lot of willpower to deliberately play an inferior character.
>I'm not saying that they should be as good...there not going to be able to
>drop three or four people every action forever like a Sammie could,
Three or four? How?
Two per action at absolute most, if the enemy is halfway smart. If they
line up in the open and say "Shoot us! Shoot us!" then you might get
many. But taking down (meaning Moderate wounds) four enemies in one
action was a major feat for a samurai using a smarlinked SMG with
Firearms-9.
>but
>they should have at least a fighting chance of succeffulyy casting a combat
>spell without totally draining themselves.
Depends how effective you want that combat spell to be. You want to
throw Force 6 spells? Get set for a major headache. Force 4? you can get
a _lot_ more of them off.
>And you definately want to do that, I enjoy the non-combat experience, but
>as much fun as the social skills are for role-playing once the lead does
>start to fly they mage should be able to do something other than run and
>hide.
The magician can do a _lot_ more than run and hide.
Mask spell: to put the most recently exposed enemy in a rival's uniform.
Confusion or Chaos, or Alienating an enemy observer via spirits.
Barrier, to cover a retreat.
Imvisibility, to hide a sniper.
Clairvoyance, to watch those enemy making what they think is a covert
flanking manoevre.
Et cetera et cetera. Can a samurai do any of those?
No?
Then why are you demanding all that _and_ parity in stand-up combat?
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 02:12:42 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
In-Reply-To: <01IKTPSM0QCM9I4AZC@******.acs.muohio.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In article <01IKTPSM0QCM9I4AZC@******.acs.muohio.edu>, "Bruce H. Nagel"
<NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> rambled on endlessly about Runner's
Attitudes
>You wrote:
>> Have you seen the camera? Do you know that there aren't others? Do you
>> know that there are no further security measures present? Is there only one
>> camera? Tough questions to have to answer on the fly, pray that you don't
>> get noticed while answering them...
>Detect <device>.
Plausible, but not necessarily successful on all devices, the spell
isn't the end answer for a situation, merely the beginning of a series
of clues. Magic is not all powerful.
>Physical Invisiblity (modified to also cover Thermo, jsut for
>kicks).
Maintaining the spell over several people for any period of time is
going to cause drain on the character of horrendous proportions,
individually, it's pointless as someone else will give the situation
away, also, again, it's not perfect. Covering invisibility for optical
detection does not mean you are undetectable, just that you can't be
seen. Again, not a perfect solution, merely a means to a possible end.
> Distractions (fires, explosives, a hostage situation elsewhere that
>the corp has interest in).
Too noisy, starts to involve Federal and other branches of law
enforcement. Extraterritoriality does not mean the corporation covers
the hostage situation, it's highly likely that the FBI would be involved
in this, after all those hostages may well be UCAS (whatever) citizens.
For isntance, the hostage situations that occur in embassies around the
world, they aren't ignored because the land belongs to another country,
they are countered with all possible forces. So, you've just made a
hell of a lot of noise, and achieved very little.
>Power outages,
Instantly attracts the attention of the relevant utility supplier, any
evidence of tampering or sabotage and you again have federal law
enforcement investigating, if the sabotage looks like common vandalism,
then local law enforcement is going to be alert and watching for other
incidents.
>matrix intrusion,
too noisy. Matrix intrusion is designed to be subtle, if you want to
make it noisy to attract attention, then alarm bells are going to start
ringing elsewhere in the complex and you have alert security again.
>harassment, and
>other 'not fair' tactics.
Don't understand this one. Sorry.
>Tracking employees home and getting info from them
>with Mind Probe,
Again magic... Sad that so many people have this mistaken belief that
magic is the answer to everything. It's a powerful tool, nothing more.
>or using them as a way in with Control thoughts or Influence.
Not a guaranteed success, and can result in totla failure, or only
partial success.
>There are ways. There are ways to get things done. And there are ways to help
>insure an escape should things hose up royally. Bomb threats.
Bomb threats again create vast amounts of noise, media coverage,
involvement of large quantities of law enforcement, bomb squad and
federal involvement, and any company worth it's salt in the hostile
situation of 205* is going to run a security scan to make sure it's not
also a potential target. Again - alert security and too much noise.
Shadowrunning is intended to be what it suggests - "Shadow" running, not
full media and federal bureau involvement.
>> Also, getting to the security center has to be perhaps the single most
>> difficult run imaginable to me. You have to get through everything from the
>> perimeter outside to the security center without setting off anything in
>> between. Impossible in my game, possible in some others...
>I reall yhate the word 'impossible'. It basically means the GM is saying
>'don't do that'. Is every site so secure? I *need* to get into doing corp
>security...
As has been said by people far better educated and more intelligent than
I - "nothing is impossible to a person who is determined" - Just bloody
difficult. :)
--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 18:50:49 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: MANA vs PHYSICAL spell
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David Buehrer wrote:
> If the spell is Mana, the target resists with his Willpower. If it's
> a Physical spell the target resists with his Body. Both Mana and
> Physical combat spells can cause either Physical or Stun damage,
> depending on the spell. Mana Bolt is a mana spell that causes
> physical damage. Power Dart is a physical spell that causes physical
> damage. Sleep is a mana spell that causes stun damage.
You taken a look at Manaball? quote pg 151 'This mana version only
effects living targets', yet the type of spell is physical, not mana.
*sigh* Oh the arguments I had with my gm cause he took the spell as it
was written, typo and all...
My suggestion to Steve K, btw, was to clean up the spells and thwap the
editors that missed the typos in the spells. ;)
--
Dvixen Code-word : Weevil-chuck. dvixen@********.com
"And I thought First Ones were rare." - Ivanova - Babylon 5
First High Priest of the Church of the Squooshy Ball.
Vodka corrupts. Abolut Vodka corrupts absolutely.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 01:50:55 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707031827.LAA10149@*****.oce.orst.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In message <199707031827.LAA10149@*****.oce.orst.edu>, Brett Barksdale
<brett@***.ORST.EDU> writes
>That's why I believe strongly in not allowing a player to generate their
>characters freely. If so, they tend to choose a min/max profile. At the
>very least, they go for a WP of 6 because it is SO important - even to a
>sammie.
Isn't it a hint that magic is over-dominant where Willpower 5 or 6 is
seen as a _prerequisite_ for a character, because anything less leaves
the PC dead against magical attack? It's not quite as extreme as SR1,
but still I feel very exposed even with a Willpower 5 character, because
magic is extremely powerful and you _must_ design your character in
accordance with that.
(Kudos to Pete Sims and his lower-magic campaign where PC Willpowers
dropped from a 5.5 average to something like 3.7: because magic was
rare, and even NPC magicians had to step carefully).
Given what proper use of magic can do, I don't see the need for
magicians to be able to conveniently defeat wired and trained military
or security personnel in a stand-up fight: rather, to use illusion or
manipulation to get themselves or others into a position to attack by
surprise.
> I try to throw some variability into the process. And then I
>try to create a world (and game system) where there are distinct advantages
>to having better "side" (non combat) skills and higher INT and CHAR
>attributes. That way, they don't feel "shafted".
Charisma is the great neglected attribute. How many PCs were generated
as Body 6, Quickness 6, Strength 6, Willpower 6, Intelligence 5,
Charisma 1 or some minor variation thereof, because slashing Charisma
was essentially free? Intelligence at least affects Reaction. When does
Charisma ever come into play?
I've played a PC with Charisma 8: but let me tell you, under SR1 and SR2
it's a waste of generation points compared to putting them into Strength
(melee damage), Willpower (survive hostile magic), or Quickness (run
fast). It made sense for roleplaying that particular character, but SR3
needs to make the Charisma attribute useful in the same way that others
can be.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 02:31:06 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707031942.PAA02551@****.provide.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In message <199707031942.PAA02551@****.provide.net>, Justin Pinnow
<vanyel@*******.NET> writes
>And as far as the topic of Street Sams being more suited to battle, because
>that's all they do, my response would be to say: so what about combat
>mages? They fall into the same category...battle is all they do.
Their choice. What I object to is that one single combat spell (most
usually Stun Bolt or Mana Bolt) lets a magician inflict more damage per
action than a samurai with Firearms-6 and a heavy pistol: and with a
Exclusivity the drain is very low.
Great; so it becomes very easy to disarm the samurai, while the magician
can kill whatever he sees.
>Magic is
>supposed to be deadly. It's a wild card. That's why it costs 20 points or
>A priority to even get the privaledge of using it to it's full potential.
And its potential encompasses far more than merely combat. I really
resent the way magicians can out-samurai samurai and do so much more
besides.
I don't mind magicians being effective in a fight, but if you insist
Increase Initiative +3 and a Mana Bolt-6 spell are enough to equal a
samurai, then for six Karma samurai can get a Magic attribute and start
learning Sorcery and Conjuring.
>That makes a mage much weaker in either, skills, attributes, or resources.
>These weaknesses can be exploited. Try to use some creativity instead of
>just slamming the mage.
>
>None of this was intended as insulting. It just bothers me to see the
>thread of mages being too powerful all the time. I have had mages smeared
>all over the floor many times. They aren't all that.
Mages _are_ extremely powerful, by virtue of their flexibility and
versatility. They don't need to be face-stomping combat machines on top
of that. I support enthusiastically the "cast this and fall over" area-
effect nuke spell, but for a combat situation a magician has many more
options (Invisibility, Physical Mask, Confusion, Control Thoughts, et
cetera) to avoid being shot at.
With all that, saying you "need" combat capability is like demanding
deckers be given Firearms-6 and wired-2 so they don't get left behind in
combat scenes.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:18:49 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
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>Caric has Mana Missile: 4, Sorcery: 6 and Willpower: 6
>NightLife has Willpower: 6
>
>We'll assume Caric gets the drop on NightLife somehow (surprise,
>invisibility, etc.) since I don't want to bring Wired Reflexes into this
>argument right now.
>
>Caric throws his Mana Missile at Force 4, adding in 4 dice from his Magic
>Pool. He rolls 8 dice against TN 6 (NightLife's Will). He gets 1 success.
>
>NightLife rolls 6 dice (his Will) to resist against TN 4 (the spell's Force).
>He gets 4 successes.
>
>NightLife has 3 successes more than Caric, so he stages the damage of the
>spell down to Light and takes a Light wound. (The extra success has no
>effect). If the spell had been manabolt, NightLife would have taken a
>Moderate wound.
>
>Caric resists 4M Drain with 8 dice (his Will + 2 dice from Magic Pool). He
>rolls 4 successes for no Drain. If he were using Manabolt instead, he would
>have taken Light Drain.
>
>The above is an extreme example: a Willpower 6 target SHOULD be tough to
>affect, but under this sceheme, Caric still did damage. Under the current
>system, he would have done none. Against an opponent of equal Will 4:
>
>Caric rolls 8 dice vs TN 4 with 6 successes
>Target rolls 4 dice vs TN 4 with 2 successes
>Caric has 4 net successes and stages the damage up to Deadly, then rolls 8
>dice vs. TN 4, scoring 3 successes, so he takes Light drain.
>
>How does something like this work for everyone?
>
>Steve
>
Heh, heh now it my turn. I know I'll blast him twice on a two round burst
from my CMDT shotgun and remember I have a smart link and a shock pad. ;-)
So does this mean me and Caric can get our names in a book now? Pleeease.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:22:12 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
MIME-version: 1.0
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>It doesn't? Then why are there target number mods?
Becuase you're fatigued. You however aren't two steps away from deaths door
just working on being unconsious.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:27:13 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
MIME-version: 1.0
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>It sucks at first, but things are ok now, neh?
Almost. They've been replaced it remains to be seen if the new guys are any
better.
>Oh yeah, I remember you talking about that. IMHO, that player had
>serious mental instability, How did that turn out, BTW? Did
>everything work out?
It turned out that he got torked then his buddy got torked, then onto e-mail
harrassment again with finally his buddy telling me to F-off. Hopefully now
theyre gone for good. Sorry for going off on you and a couple of others in
this debate though I've had a lousy week. But on the bright side I just
turned 24 as of 25 minutes ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:28:19 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
>And again, Nightlife, sorry if I offended.
It's time for a group hug everybody. ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:31:47 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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>True, but my point was you wouldn't use that gear, and on the same
>token, who would play a mage for the same reason?
>
>It is obvious you feel strongly about the power of mages. Have you
>had a problem with them in your campaign?
I could go on and on about those two idiots.
>If so, maybe we can come up
>with some ways that deal with it that don't involve a complete
>rewrite of the magic system.
I think something like I don't know so astrl monsters to just randomly
attack yoyo' with to many focuses etc... I'll go into depth later I still
have toget for work tomorrow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:46:34 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-version: 1.0
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>You would. how about we delete all the dice pools while we are at it,
>and you decker can run about without the help of his hacking pool, your
>rigger without his rigging pool, and the st sam without his combat
>pool. Suddenly having a rating 6 skill/attribute becomes all the more
>important, and next thing we know, skill rating or 8 (zen master level
>with 20 years under his belt) will be in every runner with less than two
>years practical experience.
Didn't I already advocate that. And you point is what? Ohhh with out the
pools somebody would actually have to rely on high skills dice and not a
pool to pull his bacon out of the fire. Ooo scary, brains over brawn who
would have thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:50:45 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
MIME-version: 1.0
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>If a GM can't set ground rules, then I think the GM shouldn't be.
If a Gm was trying to be a nice guy and a peace keeper he might have a bit
of troublw with people who want their way.
>My players, desipte their many failings, whining amongst them, don't
>argue with my interpretation of the how letha the game is. It's *my*
>world they are playing in. If they didn't like it, they'd play with
>someone else.
Lucky you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:56:52 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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>Hrm... So the danger of having a light stun kill a mage while he is
>jaunting on the astral doesn't compare?
Last time I checked a light stun didn't kill anyone.
>How about the magical beasites
>that are attracted to magical activities. How about perhaps a decent
>forensic mage being able to identify a mage because of the astral
>signature his force 6 spells left behind? (and the rotten luck of having
>high essense material links left behind...)
Go to the nether realm of the universe and expect the big baddies guarding
the power of the cosmos. As for identify the mage is he was sloppy enough
not to have cleaned up after himself by cleansing the area, well he deserves
to get found out and arrested or roasted for leaving a fetish or something
else behind.
Get sloppy get geeked cold hard fact of life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 01:20:48 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <Dreadnaut1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In a message dated 97-07-05 01:16:30 EDT, you write:
> >Hrm... So the danger of having a light stun kill a mage while he is
> >jaunting on the astral doesn't compare?
>
> Last time I checked a light stun didn't kill anyone.
>
Sure it does. When a mage is astrally projecting, most any injury to the
comatose body can send his body into fatal shock. p147, BBB.
Later-
Duncan
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 01:37:17 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In a message dated 97-07-04 21:28:53 EDT, shadowrn-ml@*******.HANSE.DE
(Shadowrun ML demon <shadowrn-ml@*******.hanse.de>) writes:
>
> The only real problem we always have is that mages imbalance the
> situation by their astral activities - they just spot everything and
> it is impossible to hide properly. I sometimes wish the range of
> astral senses would be kinda more limited or less connected to the
> mundane plane.
>
> Later,
> Georg
>
Two things to this answer...Drones, they come up as "dead mundane
materials"...and "Astral Wind"...sure, it's something of a cop out, but
supplying a visibility modifier...well, that's kind of nice once in a
while...
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 01:39:00 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: (OT) Admin by the Hour?
In a message dated 97-07-04 21:04:03 EDT, fro@***.AB.CA (Adam J) writes:
> I'm paying per hour for my damned internet now,
When did that Happen? Is there anything we can do to assist in any way???
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 01:45:50 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Game Lethality (was: Magic Drain)
In a message dated 97-07-04 23:28:53 EDT, dvixen@********.COM (Dvixen)
writes:
>
> If a GM can't set ground rules, then I think the GM shouldn't be.
>
> My players, desipte their many failings, whining amongst them, don't
> argue with my interpretation of the how letha the game is. It's *my*
> world they are playing in. If they didn't like it, they'd play with
> someone else.
>
>
I did this once, I still have a noted rule to the players "Play whatever type
or power level of character you wish, just remember one thing, I will adjust
the overall threat of the game to match in order to create a
challenge....Problem, Greedy Players who don't give a fat devil rat's ass
about their fellow players...
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 01:49:17 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Cameras & CCTV (was a Dead Topic- won't say the words)
On the topic of cameras, privacy, CCTV, etcetera etcetera...I have recently
discovered that AOL has cameras located in major cities around the nation
(US) and several foreign nations...with a website where you can get
"pictures" from these cameras. They only give a sort of "Horizon's
Viewpoint", but their kind of neat and kind of scarey at the same time.
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 01:46:32 -0400
Reply-To: shergold@***********.net
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Shergold <shergold@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Isn't it a hint that magic is over-dominant where Willpower 5 or 6 is
> seen as a _prerequisite_ for a character, because anything less leaves
> the PC dead against magical attack? It's not quite as extreme as SR1,
> but still I feel very exposed even with a Willpower 5 character, because
> magic is extremely powerful and you _must_ design your character in
> accordance with that.
Really? I don't mean to sound nasty, sacastic or offend anyone. Well not
too badly anyway, but the Street Sams I've made started off with 3 or 4
willpower and didn't get blasted too badly by opposing mages using Manaball
or Manabolt or whatever. In fact my Street Sams still have 4 Willpower and
the only things they've gotten fragged by was claws, sharp, pointy, man
made objects, or flying pieces of metal, not all of which came from a gun
of any type.
As for increasing body there are alternatives beside Orthoskin (which
makes skin like armor not adds extra body) and dermal plating. Those things
include: bonelacing (kinda tough to pass those airport gates, but there are
ways around obstacles like that: really good fake permits and getting
creative), Suprathyroid gland( you eat more, get slightly hyper, and you
show a little warmer. Eating more is hard to get around, but some of the
stuff out on the net helps get around that, hyper-well just take deep calm
breaths (if possible) or meditate, whatever (makes for good roleplaying
though, one of my Sams learned how to be REAL calm from having a gland with
wired refs, not always a good combo. The higher high sig can be gotten
around with the right stuff, I don't feel like listing anymore stuff for
this.) and there are things on the net for additional body with bioware, I
think some of the Plastic Warrior stuff has things like that, I can't quite
remember.
Well I've talked long enough, sorry if I rambled a bit, it's a little
late.
SilverFire
"I merely chewed in self-defense."
-Draco the Dragon
"Dragonheart"
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:05:13 -0700
Reply-To: granite@**.net
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <granite@**.net>
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Organization: Granite Forge Productions
Subject: Re: NPC maintenance
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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> Any GMs out there have good tips for keeping NPCs easily?
I have a passion for page protectors and three ring binders...This
keeps things organized and right at your fingertips..And Page
protectors can be picked up on the cheap at places like Wal-Mart..
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
===============================================
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:05:12 -0700
Reply-To: granite@**.net
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <granite@**.net>
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Organization: Granite Forge Productions
Subject: Re: Cameras & CCTV (was a Dead Topic- won't say the words)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> On the topic of cameras, privacy, CCTV, etcetera etcetera...I have recently
> discovered that AOL has cameras located in major cities around the nation
> (US) and several foreign nations...with a website where you can get
> "pictures" from these cameras. They only give a sort of "Horizon's
> Viewpoint", but their kind of neat and kind of scarey at the same time.
I recall in East Berlin..before the wall came down..There were
camera..sort of half hidden..all over the place..watching the people
wandering about..Talk about scary..
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
===============================================
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 02:54:41 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: David <Mandichd@******.EDU>
Subject: Effects of Bioware on magic...
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My name is David and this is my second post. I figured that it would be
more fun to be known as my street name here so refer to me as Gabriel.
Anyways, to my questoin:
I don't own the source book(s) that refer to bioware and its effects on
essence and magic. The character generaters I have for SR both show
that bioware has no effect on magic. I was just recently told that
bioware does indeed affect magic the same way that cyberware does. It
however does not affect essence. My questions then are this: First,
does bioware affect a character's magic rating? Second if it does
affect magic then why does it not affect essence? Finally, if there is
a difference between someones essence and magic, then why do they
correspond almost exactly to each other (essence loss reduces magic,
initiation increases essence and magic both)?
As I said before I'm new to this mailing list and to the SR game
itself. So any knowledge is helpful!
Gabriel
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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 03:11:52 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 04 Jul 1997 20:14:14 -0700"
<33BDBC06.5B747D84@********.com>
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You wrote:
> NightLife wrote:
> >
> > At 07:09 PM 7/3/97 -0500, you wrote:
> > >How about this for limiting the effectiveness of magicians: delete
> > Magic Pool.
> > I like that idea.
> You would. how about we delete all the dice pools while we are at it,
> and you decker can run about without the help of his hacking pool, your
> rigger without his rigging pool, and the st sam without his combat
> pool. Suddenly having a rating 6 skill/attribute becomes all the more
> important, and next thing we know, skill rating or 8 (zen master level
> with 20 years under his belt) will be in every runner with less than two
> years practical experience.
How about we not assume everyone on the face of the planet is out to minmax,
since you can't prevent that one way or the other. Dice Pools didn't cut down
on it, they just gave char's free extra dice to use. I prefer having the
char's skill level count for something, if that's okay with you. What I saw
when people minmaxed in 2nd ed was people taking the 5 or 6 firearms anyway,
then being able to double _that_ to a hideous 10 or 12 dice attack.
Unpleasant, imo.
losthalo
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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 03:21:44 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 05 Jul 1997 02:12:42 +0100"
<zcQibJAK+ZvzEwbJ@*******.demon.co.uk>
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You wrote:
> In article <01IKTPSM0QCM9I4AZC@******.acs.muohio.edu>, "Bruce H.
Nagel"
> <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> rambled on endlessly about Runner's
> Attitudes
*ahem* Not as endlessly as some feel the need to.
> Plausible, but not necessarily successful on all devices, the spell
> isn't the end answer for a situation, merely the beginning of a series
> of clues. Magic is not all powerful.
Never said it was. It's a part of the operation, it solves some of the
problems. Stealth skills, technical skills to defeat individual security
items, and other factors (bribes, inside info, ad infinitum) can come into
play, and solve other problems.
> Maintaining the spell over several people for any period of time is
> going to cause drain on the character of horrendous proportions,
> individually, it's pointless as someone else will give the situation
> away, also, again, it's not perfect. Covering invisibility for optical
> detection does not mean you are undetectable, just that you can't be
> seen. Again, not a perfect solution, merely a means to a possible end.
As I said, stealth skills help. Casing the place helps. KNowing something
about the site you're entering helps. Et cetera. I do not recall saying that
magic does everything.
And as for maintaining spells, the Nature Spirit powers also come in handy, no
add'l drain beyond summoning, no sustaining. Or have an Elemental hold the
spell for you. _Design_ an Area-effect version so you don't have to cast and
sustain multiple spells (done that the hard way, 'tis very tricky).
> > Distractions (fires, explosives, a hostage situation elsewhere that
> >the corp has interest in).
> Too noisy, starts to involve Federal and other branches of law
> enforcement. Extraterritoriality does not mean the corporation covers
> the hostage situation, it's highly likely that the FBI would be involved
> in this, after all those hostages may well be UCAS (whatever) citizens.
> For isntance, the hostage situations that occur in embassies around the
> world, they aren't ignored because the land belongs to another country,
> they are countered with all possible forces. So, you've just made a
> hell of a lot of noise, and achieved very little.
And I didn't _say_ it was going to do the job by itself. Having a planned
distraction to draw attention when things do hose up can help a lot (precious
moments needed). This can be a *part* of the plan, I didn't say it *was* the
plan or that it had to be used, it might be a contingency...
> >Power outages,
> Instantly attracts the attention of the relevant utility supplier, any
> evidence of tampering or sabotage and you again have federal law
> enforcement investigating, if the sabotage looks like common vandalism,
> then local law enforcement is going to be alert and watching for other
> incidents.
Yeah, but by the time that happens, my run is over. Maybe I can't use this
trick next time, but it may work right now. Or have a decker jack in and do it
via the building's systems, or...
> >matrix intrusion,
> too noisy. Matrix intrusion is designed to be subtle, if you want to
> make it noisy to attract attention, then alarm bells are going to start
> ringing elsewhere in the complex and you have alert security again.
I was thinking more of using quiet intrusion to divert security and/or find
relevant info about the site.
> >harassment, and
> >other 'not fair' tactics.
> Don't understand this one. Sorry.
Someone elsewhere mentioned 'tickling' the security for some time prior, to
deaden responses to what looks like fairly innocent activity. Basically,
anything that can be done to divert their attention, give them a bad day ahead
of time, make them uncomfortable or afraid, it comes down to opportunity and
creativity.
> >Tracking employees home and getting info from them
> >with Mind Probe,
> Again magic... Sad that so many people have this mistaken belief that
> magic is the answer to everything. It's a powerful tool, nothing more.
I don't, but it has _SOME_USES_. Combined with sammies, stealthy types, and
folks with security-defeating skills, it makes a nice tool, as you say. Does
that mean that since you can't do it all with magic that magic's useless? Why
do you keep talking about this?
> >or using them as a way in with Control thoughts or Influence.
> Not a guaranteed success, and can result in totla failure, or only
> partial success.
Never said it was guaranteed.
> >There are ways. There are ways to get things done. And there are ways to help
> >insure an escape should things hose up royally. Bomb threats.
> Bomb threats again create vast amounts of noise, media coverage,
> involvement of large quantities of law enforcement, bomb squad and
> federal involvement, and any company worth it's salt in the hostile
> situation of 205* is going to run a security scan to make sure it's not
> also a potential target. Again - alert security and too much noise.
> Shadowrunning is intended to be what it suggests - "Shadow" running, not
> full media and federal bureau involvement.
Yeah, but it all depends on what you need to do to get a given job done.
_I've_ never used an explosion or bomb threats or hostage-taking to get a job
done. I was merely laying out some possible methods to oversome what someone
else seems to think are *impregnable* defenses...
And let's not talk about what shadowrunning is 'intended' to be, eh?
> As has been said by people far better educated and more intelligent than
> I - "nothing is impossible to a person who is determined" - Just bloody
> difficult. :)
Exactly. You seemed to be writing this post to show how every thing I
mentioned wasn't enough by itself to do the job, or to point out the downsides.
I'm already well aware of the downsides, and don't need you to point out to me,
for instance, that magic can't do the job by itself, or that 'terrorist'-style
methods have big drawbacks. Doesn't mean I wouldn't do some major property
damage to help cover an escape, though...
I knew I was going to regret posting to this thread again, but this part seemed
fairly innocent. Guess some things are just born evil.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 03:46:25 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 05 Jul 1997 01:50:55 +0100"
<XznXRaAvpZvzEw8L@********.demon.co.uk>
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You wrote:
> Charisma is the great neglected attribute. How many PCs were generated
> as Body 6, Quickness 6, Strength 6, Willpower 6, Intelligence 5,
> Charisma 1 or some minor variation thereof, because slashing Charisma
> was essentially free? Intelligence at least affects Reaction. When does
> Charisma ever come into play?
INT is also used for Perception tests, which is why I like it. As for
Charisma, try lying with a CHA of, say, 2 or 1. Whatever. I've seen char's
deficient in this try to get by with roleplaying as if they had higher, and the
GM didn't let it fly. Not to mention things like seducing someone or the like,
if it ever comes up...
> I've played a PC with Charisma 8: but let me tell you, under SR1 and SR2
> it's a waste of generation points compared to putting them into Strength
> (melee damage), Willpower (survive hostile magic), or Quickness (run
> fast). It made sense for roleplaying that particular character, but SR3
> needs to make the Charisma attribute useful in the same way that others
> can be.
Well, I can just see problems trying to roleplay a Charisma of 8, that'd be a
helluva challenge for me. :) And I'll bet it did come in handy once in a
while, yes? Characters usually find ways to get their strengths to work for
them.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 03:51:58 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 05 Jul 1997 02:31:06 +0100"
<$gqtFhAaPavzEwIh@********.demon.co.uk>
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You wrote:
> Mages _are_ extremely powerful, by virtue of their flexibility and
> versatility. They don't need to be face-stomping combat machines on top
> of that. I support enthusiastically the "cast this and fall over" area-
> effect nuke spell, but for a combat situation a magician has many more
> options (Invisibility, Physical Mask, Confusion, Control Thoughts, et
> cetera) to avoid being shot at.
Hell yes. First spell a character of mine ever used in SR was Invisibility.
Walked up to a troll who was giving my sammie friend some trouble (and we
*really* needed to get out of that place). Walked up behind said troll invis,
emptied UziIII clip into siad troll. Vermin, Rat Shaman, was introduced to the
role he was to play again and again, "Oh shit, how did I get myself into
this??" 'Course Vermin, being Rat totem, couldn't kill much with a combat
spell...
> With all that, saying you "need" combat capability is like demanding
> deckers be given Firearms-6 and wired-2 so they don't get left behind in
> combat scenes.
What if I feel like playing a combat-oriented mage, who has the right spell for
every target but not much outside of combat? Should I be disallowed that?
What about a Shark Shaman who takes no spells for helping others, or anything
not useful for killing or boosting his fighting ability? He was a fun
character, Randy has the credit for that one, he thought a great deal about
what to take and what not to. Just because some folks minmax doesn't mean the
rules should be changed to prevent it, since you can't. Someone can still
easily minmax in SR2, even if you change the base drain. You can keep
weakening mages in one way or another until they're useless, or accept the fact
that munchkin characters should be laughed out of a group. And if the group
wants to be so munchkin, and the GM doesn't mind, then technically it *isn't*
munchkin... Physads got shafted from 1st to 2nd ed, as far as I can tell, I'd
rather not see the same done to mages (and I'm the one mentioned killing the
Magic Pool a while back :).
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 04:04:20 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 05 Jul 1997 00:50:45 -0400"
<199707050450.AAA08163@******.san.uc.edu>
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You wrote:
> >If a GM can't set ground rules, then I think the GM shouldn't be.
> If a Gm was trying to be a nice guy and a peace keeper he might have a bit
> of troublw with people who want their way.
> >My players, desipte their many failings, whining amongst them, don't
> >argue with my interpretation of the how letha the game is. It's *my*
> >world they are playing in. If they didn't like it, they'd play with
> >someone else.
> Lucky you.
Sorry to hear you have trouble with your players, but the game system doesn't
need to change to reflect that, does it? Wasn't that where this thread
started, the SR3 rules?
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 04:06:32 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Game Lethality (was: Magic Drain)
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 05 Jul 1997 01:45:50 -0400"
<970705014549_1959883531@*******.mail.aol.com>
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You wrote:
> I did this once, I still have a noted rule to the players "Play whatever type
> or power level of character you wish, just remember one thing, I will adjust
> the overall threat of the game to match in order to create a
> challenge....Problem, Greedy Players who don't give a fat devil rat's ass
> about their fellow players...
I figure if people can't let the GM set the rules and just try to get along
with what he says, they prolly aren't too much awful fun to game with anyway.
I've seen the folks that can't listen instead of quoting the book, and they 're
not much fun to run for or to play with.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:22:46 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Variable staging
In-Reply-To: <01BC886D.F1519640@***rley1.u96.stevens-tech.edu>
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Jonathan Hurley said on 11:32/ 4 Jul 97...
> > That would be easy enough to take from SR1 for things like weapons and
> > spells. For things introduced after 1992, you're right in that someone
> > would have to look through all the books to find all items and give them a
> > Staging. But since SR isn't all that gear-oriented this shouldn't be all
> > that hard (it's mainly FoF anyway).
>
> Especially since weapon damage codes are standardized anyway.
Exactly. There was some minor variation in SR1, like some SMGs doing 4M3
and others 5M3, but that's it -- and since SR2's Damage Codes differ in
the same way (6M and 7M for those same SMGs) it would be a trivial
matter to add a Staging to the Damage Codes.
Hmm... I may have to try this next time we play...
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:22:46 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
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Steve Kenson said on 12:30/ 4 Jul 97...
> How about this: make Combat and Damaging Manipulation (DM) spells both
> work just like Ranged Combat damage; the target of the spell has to
> stage the damage ALL the way down to nothing instead of just beating the
> caster on successes (I know DMs already work this way, but bear with
> me).
[snip]
This is actually the way I played combat spells four years ago, after I'd
just bought the SRII rulebook 1) which I hadn't read too carefully about
this, and 2) I still had SR1 in mind at the time :)
It works, and makes combat spells more useful since the target needs more
successes to resist. At the same time, though, it removes one of the
differences which make a magician choose a DM at certain times over a
combat spell. I'm not sure I like that idea.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:22:47 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Skills at level 6
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970704124452.006cb228@****.lis.ab.ca>
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Adam J said on 12:44/ 4 Jul 97...
> This is my biggest pet peeve, and I'm in the middle of writing an article
> about it for TSS. Characters will 4 or 5 skills/spells at 6, and nothing
> lower. I know that everyone wants to make a character that is going to
> survive a few encounters, and I can respect that. However, some people
> have the attitude that 'If its not useful in extremely obvious ways, its
> useless'. The street sammy with Firearms, Street Eti, Stealth, and Armed
> Combat, all at 6, and nothing else. Is he so good at all of that, and so
> bad at everything else that it doesn't rate?
My characters don't :) I happily take 40 skill points and assign no skill
more than 4 points (including some at 1 or 2, just so I have a realistic
chance of rolling a fumble...) but I know what you mean. I distinctly
remember one guy who, when I GMed SR for the very first time for the
people I normally played AD&D with, took 24 skill points and then chose
four skills and gave them all 6 points. I believe two of them were
Firearms and Unarmed Combat (what else?).
> A real human, most of us, have a TON of skills, too many to fit in any game
> description, and all at varying levels. While most of us have several that
> shine, we have alot that don't, but still are useful once in awhile. How
> come most Shadowrun characters don't?
Because their players are powergamers to some degree or other? I actively
discourage players from taking many level 6 skills, and recommend all
kinds of skills to them when they design characters. Only one of the three
characters in my current campaign has a skill at level 6 (Firearms, but he
wanted to play a hitman-type character so this makes sense).
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:22:47 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: NPC maintenance
In-Reply-To: <199707050055.UAA07435@****.provide.net>
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Justin Pinnow said on 20:48/ 4 Jul 97...
> Any GMs out there have good tips for keeping NPCs easily? I was thinking
> of using index cards, but feel that might require a lot of writing. Are
> there any computer programs out there that make life easier when it comes
> to NPC generation and/or filing? The only program I have found is on
> Paolo's site, but the address is incorrect.
I've got a program from someone whose name I can't remember right now;
it's intended to keep track of NPCs in combat, and allows you to save and
load them. I could mail it to you if you want. Oh yeah, it's for Win95.
Alternatively, do what I do and don't worry about all of an NPC's stats.
I've printed out a whole page of condition monitors and put sticky
plastic over them; that way I can use a whiteboard marker to keep track of
damage, and I write initiative and an identifier (usually a letter or a
number) next to each monitor. Since this is only used in combat, all I
need to know are combat stats like Body and Firearms skill, which are easy
enough to remember if there are only a few NPCs. (And if there are many,
most of them use the same stats. The players won't know about it, so it
doesn't matter :)
If you're talking about the major NPCs in a campaign, you could just use a
database or word processor. Set up a kind of standard fill-out form, and
fill in the NPC's details in it. When something important changes, open
the file and adjust the description or stats.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:22:47 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707050456.AAA08607@******.san.uc.edu>
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NightLife said on 0:56/ 5 Jul 97...
> >Hrm... So the danger of having a light stun kill a mage while he is
> >jaunting on the astral doesn't compare?
>
> Last time I checked a light stun didn't kill anyone.
It can when you're astrally projecting, although it's more likely IMHO
that you'd be snapped staright back into your physical body. A light
physical wound to the comatose body, though, and you'd better have your
DocWagon contract paid up...
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:22:47 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
In-Reply-To: <A3BCBA1E90@********.uibk.ac.at>
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Simon T. Sailer said on 19:12/ 4 Jul 97...
> But what if there is no cyber or bioware
> involved? what if you just have a arm amputated, which counts as
> drastic invasive surgery, but should be a real routine job.
Not so: organic limb replacements are major invasive surgery, which costs
25,000 nuyen. For a simple amputation where no new limb of any kind is
installed, I think I'd charge for minor invasive, since it's not much more
than sawing off the old limb and treating the wound.
> > Alpha, Beta, and Gamma (and whatever comes next, in the games here,
> > it was Delta and Theta)
>
> I've never heard of theta or gamma cyberware... where are they
> mentioned? (Fasa does not seem to stick to the greek alphabet... they
> are mixing upo the letters.. ;-)
AFAIK it's because Tom Dowd got the Greek alphabet mixed up, and thought
delta came after beta...
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:22:47 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: introduction
In-Reply-To: <199707041424.QAA14159@***.zeelandnet.nl>
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Gabriel said on 16:26/ 4 Jul 97...
> Hail to all!
Gabriel is a player in my campaign, so I guess I'll have to be careful
about what I say on the list now...
> "Uhuhu, I'm all shook up @:-)"
>
> signed,
>
> -Gabriel "Lance Cooney", who's still cracking up about his last run.
In case anyone's wondering, this somewhat strange behavior is due to David
Lowe's Elvis adventure, which I ran recently... Very funny :)
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:22:46 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
In-Reply-To: <A338166F17@********.uibk.ac.at>
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Simon T. Sailer said on 18:41/ 4 Jul 97...
> Just one thing: Caric would be veeeeery stupid if he had learnt the
> spell at level 4. Why not at level 6? costs just 2 spell points
> more,
What if he had only 4 Good Karma to spare at the time? Not all spells are
learned at chargen, and once you're in the game you know how much
magicians need Karma...
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:22:47 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: Eurowars
In-Reply-To: <A365290945@********.uibk.ac.at>
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Simon T. Sailer said on 18:52/ 4 Jul 97...
> Thanks. I just wonder why fasa has never fully explained the wars.
> maybe the'lll do so in the future..
Don't hold your breath... The Euro-Wars don't really impact the game
setting and they took place about 25 years ago, so unless there will be
some major event (or perhaps an adventure) that has something to do with
them, I doubt they'll offer us any more explanations for what happened
where and why.
> (seems you know german quite well)
Well enough to get by, though it's easier to read than to get the grammar
right when speaking or writing it :)
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:22:47 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: <01IKUA30NRLK9I4BTZ@******.acs.muohio.edu>
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Bruce H. Nagel said on 13:35/ 4 Jul 97...
> Okay, here we go... would you rather take a round from a .357(or.44) or the
> 9mmP?
I'd rather not get shot at at all, thank you very much :)
I'm not going to get involved n this. "This round is better." "No that one
is." leads absolutely nowhere except to endless arguments that will never
be resolved... All I'm going to say here is that since SR doesn't use
actual calibers, onl generalized classes of weapons that can all
magically share ammunition, everyone can have their own view on the
matter; mine is that heavy pistols fire similar ammo to SMGs, yours is
that they don't. Let's leave it at that, okay?
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:22:47 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: Effects of Bioware on magic...
In-Reply-To: <33BDEFB1.1076@******.edu>
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David said on 2:54/ 5 Jul 97...
> My name is David and this is my second post. I figured that it would be
> more fun to be known as my street name here so refer to me as Gabriel.
Welcome to the list :) That makes two Gabriels in a day, though (hint!) my
mailer will keep referring to you as David unless you alter the name your
mailer displays in your address.
> I don't own the source book(s) that refer to bioware and its effects on
> essence and magic.
That's covered in Shadowtech, the book that introduced bioware to the
game.
> The character generaters I have for SR both show that bioware has no
> effect on magic. I was just recently told that bioware does indeed
> affect magic the same way that cyberware does. It however does not
> affect essence. My questions then are this: First, does bioware affect
> a character's magic rating? Second if it does affect magic then why
> does it not affect essence?
To be precise, it works like this: for magicians, bioware not only adds
to the Body Index, but also costs Essence equal to its Body Cost. That
is, a magician who has no implants except for a level 1 mnemonic enhancer
(Body Cost .2) has a Body Index of .2 and an Essence of 5.8; this would
set his/her Magic Rating at 5.8 rounded down, or 5. If this magician also
has a cyberlimb (1.0 Essence cost), the stats would be Body Index .2,
Essence 4.8, and Magic 4.
However, many people use the house rule that bioware does ot cost Essence,
but does reduce the Magic Attribute _as_if_ it costs Essence. The
above-mentioned magician would have a Body Index of .2, an Essence of 6.0,
but a Magic Rating of 5. With the cyberlimb, the stats using this house
rule are Body Index .2, Essence 5.0, and Magic 4.
> Finally, if there is a difference between someones essence and magic,
> then why do they correspond almost exactly to each other (essence loss
> reduces magic, initiation increases essence and magic both)?
Initiation does NOT increase Essence; _nothing_ increases Essence, except
the Essence Drain power of vampires and other critters. The deal with
initiation is that a character's Magic Rating is equal to his or her
Essence, rounded down, plus the initiation grade, minus Magic loss (from
Deadly wounds, stim patch use, etc.).
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:22:47 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <A3CD9C19AF@********.uibk.ac.at>
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Simon T. Sailer said on 19:16/ 4 Jul 97...
> No major mojo..
> fetish-exclusive spell level 11 is resisted as if it were level 7...
> 7/2 = 3,5 rounded down to 3...
Fetishes and exclusivity also add to the TN to resist the spell, not just
the number of dice rolled. In fact, it adds to the Force for all purposes
except the Drain Target and deciding whether Drain is physical or stun.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:29:27 +0000
Reply-To: shadowrn@********.ITRIBE.NET
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <goll1@****host.hab-weimar.de>
From: Raven <florian.goll@******.UNI-WEIMAR.DE>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707050428.AAA07334@******.san.uc.edu>
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> >And again, Nightlife, sorry if I offended.
>
> It's time for a group hug everybody. ;-)
If you say so <Raven goes around and hugs Nightlife, MC23, Bull,
Gurth, Steven and all the others>
Think that's enough ;)
--Raven
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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:29:27 +0000
Reply-To: shadowrn@********.ITRIBE.NET
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <goll1@****host.hab-weimar.de>
From: Raven <florian.goll@******.UNI-WEIMAR.DE>
Subject: Re: Effects of Bioware on magic...
In-Reply-To: <33BDEFB1.1076@******.edu>
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> My questions then are this: First,
> does bioware affect a character's magic rating? Second if it does
> affect magic then why does it not affect essence?
Bioware does not affect the Essence Rating of a Mage, it has a Body
Index Rating which says you can't get any more Bioware than you have
Body. It has effects on the magic rating though in the same manner as
Cyberware because with the Bioware another DNA is implanted into the
Mages Body.
> Finally, if there is
> a difference between someones essence and magic, then why do they
> correspond almost exactly to each other (essence loss reduces magic,
> initiation increases essence and magic both)?
Initiation does not restor Essence, it just increases the Magic
Atrribute an so can compensate effects of magic loss by deadly wounds
and Cyber- or Bioware. It also helps you get rid of some Geasa you
had to pick because of magic loss.
Again Initiotion does under no circumstances restore Essence.
Hope that helped a bit.
--Raven
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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:22:46 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
In-Reply-To: <199707041118.EAA13228@****tod-103.bryant.webtv.net>
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... ... said on 1:18/ 4 Jul 97...
> >Alpha grade ....12.5 million.
> As of Cybertechnology Alpha is a little more frequent. I'd give it the
> standard medical costs.
That's just the problem: Cybertechnology says on page 44, "For alpha- and
beta-grade cybersurgery, doctor's fees and hospitalization are 50 times
the rates listed on page 145 of the Shadowrun basic rules." However, page
145 is in the Magic chapter; SR1 has the medical fees on page 145, though,
so now I'll have to check the SSC... Yep, looks like someone copied that
line of text straight out of the Street Samurai Catalog and forgot to
update the page number :)
Anyway, seeing that Cybertechnology gives a 50x multiplier to the costs,
that still makes drastic invasive alpha grade surgery cost 12.5 million,
and puts it out of the reach of just about everyone.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 09:39:35 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Effects of Bioware on magic...
On Sat, 5 Jul 1997 02:57:59 EST David <Mandichd@******.EDU> wrote:
<<I don't own the source book(s) that refer to bioware and its effects on
essence and magic. The character generaters I have for SR both show that
bioware has no effect on magic. I was just recently told that bioware
does indeed affect magic the same way that cyberware does. It however
does not affect essence. My questions then are this: First, does
bioware affect a character's magic rating?>>
Yes, bioware affects a character's Magic Attribute (if they have one).
<<Second if it does affect magic then why does it not affect essence?>>
Because the guys who programmed those character generators didn't manage
to put that in? Technically, bioware increases Body Index. If the
character is a magician, then it also reduces Essence, thus affecting
their Magic attribute.
<houserule>
A common house rule is that it reduces Magic _as_though_ it had reduced
Essence (Magic Rating becomes Essence-Body Index, rounded down).
</houserule>
<<Finally, if there is a difference between someones essence and magic,
then why do they correspond almost exactly to each other (essence loss
reduces magic, initiation increases essence and magic both)?>>
As at least two other people explained, Initiation does not restore
Essence, it only increases the Magic attribute (after Grade 0) and gives
access to metamagic. Nothing actually increases Essence (with the
exception of a few special cases in the form of vampires).
<<As I said before I'm new to this mailing list and to the SR game
itself. So any knowledge is helpful!>>
Well, good luck to you, I hope that has helped. It took me a while to
figure out Bioware myself. My advice is to not mess with it at all until
you can find the rules for the items in question. (for instance, did you
know that an adrenal pump can cause a heart attack? Not so attractive
now, eh?)
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 09:39:35 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
On Sat, 5 Jul 1997 03:11:52 -0500 "Bruce H. Nagel"
<NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> writes:
<<How about we not assume everyone on the face of the planet is out to
minmax, since you can't prevent that one way or the other. Dice Pools
didn't cut down on it, they just gave char's free extra dice to use. I
prefer having the char's skill level count for something, if that's okay
with you. What I saw when people minmaxed in 2nd ed was people taking
the 5 or 6 firearms anyway, then being able to double _that_ to a hideous
10 or 12 dice attack. Unpleasant, imo.>>
How about we assume that not everybody is out to absolutely abuse the
rules system in such a way that they always have those obscenely
dangerous 10 or 12 dice attacks to use? I, for one, don't know of too
many starting characters who can do something like that and still have
many dice left in their combat pool. Nightlife is right: you remove the
dice pools, people will start getting higher skills and attributes to
compensate for fewer dice. In doing so, you'll probably throw what the
numbers mean a bit out of whack. And, while you're removing thos dice
pools, drop all the threat ratings from your NPCs, since TR is supposed
to replace dice pools. People are going to minmax no matter what you do.
Just as there's no reason we should alter the rules of the game to suit a
minority opinion on the power of magicians, there's no reason we should
alter the rules to support a minority opinion on the power of dice pools.
All IMO, like (almost) always.
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 16:05:33 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Healing Magic (Re: [SR3] Drain)
In-Reply-To: <970704201336_-1796373037@*******.mail.aol.com> from "J. Keith
Henry" at Jul 4, 97 08:13:36 pm
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|Since the magician chose to cast the magic and chose to take the risk of the
|drain/damage from the casting, the 'wounds' are a bit more tricky. Stronger
|magic, that much more so. Hence, I have two options. (A) the drain code is
|that of the Spell they just threw around or (B) the target number for the
|Health Magic is increased by the Force of the spell they just lobbed.
How about this?
They MUST xast the healing spell at the force of the spell that damaged
them....
What? What do you mean you don't have healing that high?
Oh dear, what a shame, never mind.....
As the body slowely recovers, the heal spell could be used (as the golden
hour is up), and the force required could drop by 1 every 6 hours or so.....
This stops them lobbing massive force spells in combat, but still allows
them to heal themselves eventually.....
(But more slowely than if it'd been normal Stun)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 16:10:33 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Resisting Spell Force (Re: [SR3] Combat Spells)
In-Reply-To: <970704202809_646000473@*******.mail.aol.com> from "J. Keith
Henry" at Jul 4, 97 08:28:10 pm
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|The only problem that came of this was that it became easier on the economy
|of karma to make EVERYTHING lethal and take nothing for drain or spell usage.
| Simply up the Sorcery skill and buy/learn/develop a bunch of spells at force
|1. That is the PRIME reason for the changes in SRII. I'm not saying that
|SRII is great, but it -IS- better in many ways than SRI...sure, not all, but
|many.
That's why several people on the list are advokating bringing back SOME
aspects of 1stEd. Especially variable staging.
Keep the force as the target to resist the damage, because that makes more
sense.
The sorcery skill can already be used to enhance spells by using the magic
pool
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 16:16:03 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
In-Reply-To: <5DNc9IAEDZvzEw7t@********.demon.co.uk> from "Paul J. Adam"
at
Jul 5, 97 01:09:40 am
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|
|In message <199707031430.KAA05372@www.ctghub.com>;, Drekhead
|<drekhead@***.NET> writes
|>If you ever had an extended stay in a hospital after a surgery, you
|>would realize that 250k is pretty close to realistic. All I can say
|>is I'm glad I have insurance.
|
|I still praise the Lord for the National Health System: flawed or not,
|it works.
I agree.
I don't know where I'd be if it wasn't for that....
I certainly wouldn't have been able to afford to pay anything towards my
mums medical bills over the last year, I can tell you....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 16:27:06 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707050456.AAA08607@******.san.uc.edu> from "NightLife"
at Jul
5, 97 00:56:52 am
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|
|>Hrm... So the danger of having a light stun kill a mage while he is
|>jaunting on the astral doesn't compare?
|
|Last time I checked a light stun didn't kill anyone.
When you're astrally projecting, ANY damage to your helpless body can cause
enough system shock to kill the projecting mage.
(I can't remember how it's worked out though...)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 11:29:23 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
> Date: Saturday, July 05, 1997 7:22 AM
> NightLife said on 0:56/ 5 Jul 97...
> > Last time I checked a light stun didn't kill anyone.
> It can when you're astrally projecting, although it's more likely IMHO
> that you'd be snapped staright back into your physical body. A light
> physical wound to the comatose body, though, and you'd better have your
> DocWagon contract paid up...
This has always bothered me. It states in the BBB that an astrally
projecting magician can feel that damaged is being caused to his meat body,
but not much else can be sensed from it. But, it also states that even the
slightest amount of damage will kill the meat body. What's the point of
having a warning system if you don't have time to react?
Personally, I am considering ignoring the "any damage will kill you while
astrally projecting" rule. I feel that since all damage you take astrally
will manifest on the meat body, that would just decrease the amount of
damage you can take before dying. Also, you are not going to dodge an
attack on your meat bod, so you have no combat pool and are considered
prone. This in itself makes it pretty damned easy to kill your meat bod.
I don't see the need for a rule that makes it easier to kill you while
projecting. Also, this gives the mage a chance to reenter his meat body
after sensing some damage being done to it. This assumes, of course, that
the attacker didn't do enough damage to kill him instantly. Also, this
allows for anyone watching his body to slap him real hard in order to get
his attention. If we use the standard ruling, this would kill him. I
think that's absurd. :)
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 16:33:39 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Effects of Bioware on magic...
In-Reply-To: <33BDEFB1.1076@******.edu> from "David" at Jul 5, 97
02:54:41 am
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|
|My name is David and this is my second post. I figured that it would be
|more fun to be known as my street name here so refer to me as Gabriel.
|Anyways, to my questoin:
|
|I don't own the source book(s) that refer to bioware and its effects on
|essence and magic. The character generaters I have for SR both show
|that bioware has no effect on magic. I was just recently told that
|bioware does indeed affect magic the same way that cyberware does. It
|however does not affect essence.
That is a house rule. If you read Shadowtech, is specifically states that
Bioware DOES affect essence.
My questions then are this: First,
|does bioware affect a character's magic rating?
Only as the side effect of losing essence, but yes.
Second if it does
|affect magic then why does it not affect essence?
It does affect essence.
Finally, if there is
|a difference between someones essence and magic, then why do they
|correspond almost exactly to each other (essence loss reduces magic,
|initiation increases essence and magic both)?
Essence is fixed. You can lose it, but there is no way to raise it.
Magic can be increased by initiating. (Grimoire 2nd edition).
|As I said before I'm new to this mailing list and to the SR game
|itself. So any knowledge is helpful!
If Bull can pull himself together, I'm sure the Bull-bot will be by
shortly..... Maybe.....
|Gabriel
|
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 16:44:14 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Effects of Bioware on magic...
In-Reply-To: <199707051024.MAA12431@******.scc.uni-weimar.de> from
"Raven" at
Jul 5, 97 12:29:27 pm
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|
|> My questions then are this: First,
|> does bioware affect a character's magic rating? Second if it does
|> affect magic then why does it not affect essence?
|Bioware does not affect the Essence Rating of a Mage,
I suggest you re-read the book. It does indeed cost essence.
Don't start quoting house rules at people please! It'll only confuse 'em.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:45:22 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 05 Jul 1997 09:39:35 -0400 (EDT)"
<19970705.093744.19847.1.lobo1@****.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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You wrote:
> How about we assume that not everybody is out to absolutely abuse the
> rules system in such a way that they always have those obscenely
> dangerous 10 or 12 dice attacks to use?
Even using Archetypes from the main rulebook you get a bit of this.
I just don't think trying to eliminate any possible means of minmaxing from the
game is a good reason to adjust the rules. I dislike the dice pools because it
basically multiplies the advantage of a high skill in combat, or of a cast
spell. People complain again and again on this list about char's getting too
many dice to smack the target with, and Dice Pools are a big part of the cause.
This is why I prefer 1st Ed's Dodge and Defense Pools, as they cannot augment
attacks, and are based off of _skills_ so a char with no Unarmed Combat is
fairly helpless in melee. And I think that a general imbalance in power, as
quite a few have ascribed to mages, is a good reason to adjust the rules, not
the possibility of minmaxing.
I, for one, don't know of too
> many starting characters who can do something like that and still have
> many dice left in their combat pool. Nightlife is right: you remove the
> dice pools, people will start getting higher skills and attributes to
> compensate for fewer dice. In doing so, you'll probably throw what the
> numbers mean a bit out of whack.
I didn't see a big change when 2nd Ed came out as to points division in skills.
And, while you're removing thos dice
> pools, drop all the threat ratings from your NPCs, since TR is supposed
> to replace dice pools.
I use Dice Pools for my NPCs anyway, as it is more realistic and more fair to
both sides. Threat Ratings were too vague for me.
People are going to minmax no matter what you do.
> Just as there's no reason we should alter the rules of the game to suit a
> minority opinion on the power of magicians, there's no reason we should
> alter the rules to support a minority opinion on the power of dice pools.
I don't know whether it is a minority opinion or not. I was responding to
hearing others complain about Dice Pools or too many dice being a problem in
2nd ed.
> All IMO, like (almost) always.
Same here.
losthalo out
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 10:57:31 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: [Admin] Bi-weekly Posting Guidelines.
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Ta-da! :)
You are all members of the ShadowRN mailing list, some of you dating for
years before me, both age and list-wise. This list is growing in size by
the day, and so I've whipped together a Posting Guidelines that should go
out every other Satuday. *Runs off to check that today is Saturday in
Canada.* Good, it is :)
The Full FAQ's are currently at http://shadowrun.home.ml.org, and are
presently being expanded and updated.
1. When replying to a message, be sure to quote what you are replying too.
1a. Snip the part that you aren't replying too, but don't snip so much it
becomes illegible
1b. Be sure to Correctly identify who said what you are quoting.
Good example:
----
On Friday July 4th Gurth Said:
>My real name is Bob. Bob Smith.
>So now you know.
Wow that a really cool name there Bob!
-Adam
-----
Bad Example:
-----
On suchaday Chez said
On suchaday Lucid said
On suchaday Hayden said
>>>Some text
>>20 lines of unreleated text.
>A few more lines of even more unrelated text.
>>Some stuff from the other poster.
Cool.
-Adam
-----
1d. Snip a persons signature file, unless it is vital to the reply.
1e. Do not use Old-Shadowrun style quotes.
Example
[>>>>> Cool! <<<<<]
This confuses the people who are on both ShadowRN and ShadowTK, and looks
ugly, to boot.
2. After writing your email, take ten seconds to think "Should this go to
the list, or directly to the person I'm replying too?" If its indepth and
rather specific, it may be better just going to the one person.
3. Do not Start a thread that is already OFF TOPIC. [OT]. We get enough
[OT] from topic drift, anyhow.
4. Full logs since the inception of the list are available via anonymous
ftp at listproc.itribe.net, and at http://www.itribe.net/~mark
5. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.
Assistant Fearless Leader
Adam Jury
--
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
"Can I have a cup of angst to go with my un-happy meal?" -- Hi & Lois
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 11:01:57 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: (OT) Admin by the Hour?
In-Reply-To: <970705013241_1993853189@*******.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 01:39 7/5/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-07-04 21:04:03 EDT, fro@***.AB.CA (Adam J) writes:
>
>> I'm paying per hour for my damned internet now,
>
>When did that Happen? Is there anything we can do to assist in any way???
Starting in April, LIS moved to a 90hrs a month/30 bucks, after 90 hours
each hour was billed at a dollar. I was not notified of this until May
10th, when I had already wracked up a charge of 262 dollars for April.
I should be switching ISP's soon, but since I'm trying to con my way to
gencon, I can't exactly be nagging my folks for a loan for internet stuff
right away.
As for the offer of help, thanks, but no :) Most of you are just as broke
as me, anyways.. :)
Seriously, I am online less frequently now, and I get online, download
mail, say Hi to the folks on IRC, log off, read mail, write mail, log on,
send, log off, and then do other stuff. Do that 4 times a day, and my 3
hours is pretty much burned up :P
I want F#$@#$ing cable modems!
-Adam
--
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
"Can I have a cup of angst to go with my un-happy meal?" -- Hi & Lois
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 11:04:53 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: NPC maintenance
In-Reply-To: <199707051021.MAA05484@**********.xs4all.nl>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:22 7/5/97 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>I've got a program from someone whose name I can't remember right now;
>it's intended to keep track of NPCs in combat, and allows you to save and
>load them. I could mail it to you if you want. Oh yeah, it's for Win95.
I think thats SRMCP, Shadowrun Master Persona Control Program? Its still
available on a web page, they'res a link from Paolo's archive, I'm almost
sure..
>Alternatively, do what I do and don't worry about all of an NPC's stats.
>I've printed out a whole page of condition monitors and put sticky
>plastic over them; that way I can use a whiteboard marker to keep track of
>damage, and I write initiative and an identifier (usually a letter or a
>number) next to each monitor. Since this is only used in combat, all I
>need to know are combat stats like Body and Firearms skill, which are easy
Something I used with good success was a plain chalkboard. I used part of
it for drawing basic maps and letting the players keep notes, and the other
half for jotting down initiative, damage, etc.
A whiteboard would probably work even better and be much cleaner, but also
more expensive..
-Adam
--
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
"Can I have a cup of angst to go with my un-happy meal?" -- Hi & Lois
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:30:49 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Mike Buckalew once dared to write,
>Related to the Drain equals F or F/2: With F/2, a force 5 and a force 6
>both have identical drain. There is no reason beyond initial spell
>acquisition cost to learn an odd force spell with F/2.
Drain is the only Shadowrun rounding that rounds down. Odd numbered
force spells are better.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 08:06:26 GMT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Shadowrun ML demon <shadowrn-ml@*******.hanse.de>"
<shadowrn-ml@*******.HANSE.DE>
Organization: Nightmare on Coin Street
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
TopCat <topcat@***.NET> writes:
> Okay, time for my take on physads...
> Now as we all know, physads must use B magic (C for metahumans unless you
> use some optional thing). What they get for B magic should be roughly
> equivalent to what other adepts get for B magic.
Exactly. Other adepts cast killer spells or conjure nasty spirits
while taking some cyberware (that doesn't really degrade their
performance) to match up with sammies in the fighting section. PhysAds
lose power for everything they get - so Cyberware/Bioware is not the
way to go to make them stand up against others.
And another thing you should keep in mind: I don't think the priority
was meant to provide some "I put priority A on superhero"
mechanism... it was more an idea to create a lot of different
characters with EQUAL power !
> They should not be the equal of an A resources samurai, because the samurai
> put a higher priority into his defining feature. They already get many
> powers not available to samurai and sometimes they're cheaper. Sometimes,
> however, they are more expensive...
Usually they are more expensive (I didn't dare to say always because
there might be an exeption I cannot think of at the moment) and there
is just a handful that cannot be simulated by some cyber stuff.
Uhm. You are partially right, but there is one major thing you do not
pay attention to: While Sammies have a split up preference between
Karma and NuYen the PhysAdsa just need Karma. Sammies can always do a
run for some company that builds wiz Cyberware and get one of their
products in reward. There is nothing comparable to this for a PhysAd.
PhysAds start extremely weak in comparison to a Sammy (even weaker
than mages), but while Sammies gain power pretty fast (they feed on
two sources) and are pretty soon being overtaken by mages (getting new
spells is relatively cheap and this can give you a lot of power) a
PhysAd solely relies on the two most Karma eating process known in the
SR universe: *Initiation and Skills* plus there is no way of getting
bonuses on these for special runs like Sammies do.
Another pretty bad thing is: Most PhysAds are warrior types - this
means they stand right where the Sammies do. This means they will get
injured - and one day they will receive deadly injuries. While Sammies
just replace a broken part a PhysAd loses magic rating (that he can
not fill up with Cyber without further magic loss) and is crippled for
his life. PhysAds have less power but much more to lose than Sammies.
In general I really love PhysAds because they have style - but at the
moment you got to pay a big price for this style... making powers
cheaper or maybe thinking about other ways of improving their
potential would be a good idea, afaik.
Later,
Georg
- --
Georg C. F. Greve <greve@*******.hanse.de>
http://porter.desy.de/~greve/
"People who fight may lose. People who do not
fight have already lost." -- Bertold Brecht
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 14:00:56 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Steve Kenson once dared to write,
>One thing the discussion pointed out to me was this: it is difficult to
>discuss Drain in a vacuum, since there are other factors influencing spell
>Drain. One of the main ones seems to be the effectively of Combat Spells
>relative to their drain. With most unresisted spells like Detect Enemies or
>Magic Fingers, you can throw them at a low Force and pump in Magic Pool to
>make up the difference. For Combat Spells, where the Force of the spell is
>more relevant, a higher Force is needed to make the spell effective.
I remembered hearing about the last time Tom Dowd was going to run
his game again and he was considering using the full force options. When
asked why and whether he thought it should be changed he replied that it
was more of a style of play they used than the system itself. They used a
lot of fetishes and exclusive spells. That style would never go over well
here since my friends and I are too paranoid to ever be in a situation
where they might not be able to cast that spell they might need.
On a similar note, we had a problem for a while that the best use of
Karma we had was maxing all attributes. That style of play also changes
the effectiveness of magic and game play in general which is why we
limited it.
Also consider what if the campaign is set somewhere (like the CAS)
where the cost for everything magical is through the roof. Players can
now no longer afford to buy the trinkets that make spell casting easier
since they are selling their soul just to purchase their new library or
medicine lodge. This does create more of a raw magic alone style of game.
>How about this: make Combat and Damaging Manipulation (DM) spells both work
>just like Ranged Combat damage; the target of the spell has to stage the
>damage ALL the way down to nothing instead of just beating the caster on
>successes (I know DMs already work this way, but bear with me). The
>procedure:
<snip>
>How does something like this work for everyone?
I like it better but I'm not sold on full force drains. Full force
being used for area of effect spells I possibly might be. I've never had
any problems knowing there was a lethality adjustment chart in the Behind
the Scenes section. I think it works just fine.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 14:08:14 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: [SR3] Equipment and Upgrades
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
I've had this problem recently and if it could be addressed in the
3rd edition rules ir would be great. What equipment is upgradeable as
opposed to having to buy the bigger version. My primary interest is
Medicine lodges and Magical libraries. Noting what else could be would be
useful as well. Cyberware, cyberdecks and vehicles are covered elsewhere
so there is no need for them.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 14:10:38 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 05 Jul 1997 14:00:56 -0400"
<199707051801.OAA28699@*********.mindspring.com>
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You wrote:
> I remembered hearing about the last time Tom Dowd was going to run
> his game again and he was considering using the full force options. When
> asked why and whether he thought it should be changed he replied that it
> was more of a style of play they used than the system itself. They used a
> lot of fetishes and exclusive spells.
Well, what I say to this is: if spells are to powerful with the force
modifiers, you're adjusting all the force rules to accomodate something that is
an add-on. Eliminate the mods or, as someone else suggested, attach real
problems to the mods (spend a simple action to ready a fetish, can't use spell
defense while using an exclusive spell).
> On a similar note, we had a problem for a while that the best use of
> Karma we had was maxing all attributes. That style of play also changes
> the effectiveness of magic and game play in general which is why we
> limited it.
Yes, and attributes have always been cheap compared to skills. :(
> Also consider what if the campaign is set somewhere (like the CAS)
> where the cost for everything magical is through the roof. Players can
> now no longer afford to buy the trinkets that make spell casting easier
> since they are selling their soul just to purchase their new library or
> medicine lodge. This does create more of a raw magic alone style of game.
And mages may really suffer to get their Elementals, and use them sparingly. :)
> I like it better but I'm not sold on full force drains. Full force
> being used for area of effect spells I possibly might be. I've never had
> any problems knowing there was a lethality adjustment chart in the Behind
> the Scenes section. I think it works just fine.
I have no problem with full-force drain if instituted as damaging spells must
be staged all the way down, you don't just have to overcome the caster's
successes to not take damage. As for the lethality, I knew it was there,
considered it several times (esp considered raising melee lethality a bit) but
have never used them. Things always seemed to balance themselves after a bit
in my compaigns. NPCs tended to show up using the same abuse-the-game-system
tricks as the PCs, if/when the PCs found neat ways to bend the rules in their
favor.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:46:10 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: William Monroe Ashe <wma6617@****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
In-Reply-To: <970704123011_847095145@*******.mail.aol.com>
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Bill replies to Steve's idea;
I like it ... I like it
Regards
Bill
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 19:54:13 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970705134536.14282A-100000@******.tamu.edu> from
"William Monroe Ashe" at Jul 5, 97 01:46:10 pm
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|
|Bill replies to Steve's idea;
|
|I like it ... I like it
What was Steves idea?
My memory of 400 e-mails isn't that GOOD!
Quote! Please!
You must've got Adams posting guidlines by now.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:11:30 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
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I play up the stealth-undetectable aspects of PhysAds in my game. I
have considered though giving the iniatition cost a .5 multipler
reduction for physical adepts only. I haven't quite given over completely
to it though. I would say this is all they would need.
Also don't forget that PhyAds can get magically healed easier than
their Sammie buddy lying next to him. I've seen that happen in plenty a
game, Serious to Light with just "a wave of the hand".
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 16:09:01 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Bull <bull_22@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Game Lethality (was: Magic Drain)
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At 01:45 AM 7/5/97 -0400, J. Keith Henry wrote these timeless words:
>In a message dated 97-07-04 23:28:53 EDT, dvixen@********.COM (Dvixen)
>writes:
>> If a GM can't set ground rules, then I think the GM shouldn't be.
>>
Bravo, Dvix...:]
>> My players, desipte their many failings, whining amongst them, don't
>> argue with my interpretation of the how letha the game is. It's *my*
>> world they are playing in. If they didn't like it, they'd play with
>> someone else.
>>
>I did this once, I still have a noted rule to the players "Play whatever type
>or power level of character you wish, just remember one thing, I will adjust
>the overall threat of the game to match in order to create a
>challenge....Problem, Greedy Players who don't give a fat devil rat's ass
>about their fellow players...
>
I always tell my players during Char Gen that anything they have, ALL the
enemies could have it. This usually keeps them in line.
Well, one time we had some wise ass powermunch make a Munched out Sammy
with Wired 3, and lots of other boosts... Well, the fastest anyone else in
the group was was 2d6 Initiative (He started the campign late, and did this
despite my warnings and the protests of the other players). After 2 game
sessions, where the other players got their asses kicked cause suddenly
their facing guys with wired 2 and 3, and LMG's, and even a panther, they
told the Munchy to leave the group. He was a shmuck, so I didn;t argue in
the least...:]
Sometimes, if you're lucky enough to have a few decent players, they'll
regulate the group them selves, especially when they know you're more than
willing to up the power levels...;]
Bull
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 16:09:05 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Bull <bull_22@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: introduction
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At 12:22 PM 7/5/97 +0100, Gurth wrote these timeless words:
>In case anyone's wondering, this somewhat strange behavior is due to David
>Lowe's Elvis adventure, which I ran recently... Very funny :)
>
I'd be VERY interested to here the details of the run, Gurth, if you don;t
mind...
I'm considering modifying that run to utilize my "First Church of Elvis"...:]
Bull
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:38:20 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970704033947.61e79f24@********.linknet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In message <1.5.4.16.19970704033947.61e79f24@********.linknet.net>, John
Dukes <dukes@*******.NET> writes
>At 10:22 PM 7/3/97 -1000, you wrote:
>>>Things swing the other way in SR2
>>What? I find the PA a rather fun character, provided he isn't used for
>>combat. It's really difficult to get anywhere near what a sam can.
>>What powers do you consider overpriced?
>>
>
>A physad spends 6 magic points for +3d6 while a sammie spends 5 essence for
>+3d6 and gets +6 reaction as well (using wired refelxes).
Now walk through the scanners at a major international airport. The
physad wears a secret smile. The samurai wonders why the security
console sounds like it's a Vegas slot machine hitting the jackpot, and
where all those armed guards came from so fast...
>A sammie can fit
>more combat-monster stuff into his essence than a physad can into his magic
>points...
Yup. But the physad is a lot more stealthy and subtle. They aren't meant
to be the same characters, they have very different abilities.
You want an extra 6+3d6 reaction? Get Wired Reflexes III, and you've
still got a magic point's worth of physad abilities.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 20:21:33 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
On Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:30:49 -0400 MC23 <mc23@**********.COM> writes:
>Mike Buckalew once dared to write,
>
>>Related to the Drain equals F or F/2: With F/2, a force 5 and a force
>6
>>both have identical drain. There is no reason beyond initial spell
>>acquisition cost to learn an odd force spell with F/2.
>
> Drain is the only Shadowrun rounding that rounds down. Odd
>numbered
>force spells are better.
Everything in Shadowrun rounds down, unless the rules specifically state
otherwise. I don't remember where I saw that, but I'm pretty sure it's in
the main book somewhere.
--
-Canthros, sticking his neck out
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 20:21:33 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
On Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:45:22 -0500 "Bruce H. Nagel"
<NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> writes:
<my comments have been snipped, leaving losthalo's replies>
<<Even using Archetypes from the main rulebook you get a bit of this.
I just don't think trying to eliminate any possible means of minmaxing
from the
game is a good reason to adjust the rules. I dislike the dice pools
because it
basically multiplies the advantage of a high skill in combat, or of a
cast
spell. People complain again and again on this list about char's getting
too
many dice to smack the target with, and Dice Pools are a big part of the
cause.
This is why I prefer 1st Ed's Dodge and Defense Pools, as they cannot
augment
attacks, and are based off of _skills_ so a char with no Unarmed Combat
is
fairly helpless in melee. And I think that a general imbalance in power,
as
quite a few have ascribed to mages, is a good reason to adjust the rules,
not
the possibility of minmaxing.>>
Well, as far as I know, you don't get dice pools when a) you're
defaulting or b) you're chipping the skill. So a character without
Unarmed Combat still can't defend himself decently, he just has a lot
more dice to throw into damage resistance. And of the archetypes, I
didn't see too many of them who had more than 1 die to spare if they
threw as much combat pool into a given attack to double it. And the ones
that did usually didn't have combat skills that were *that* high anyway.
<<I didn't see a big change when 2nd Ed came out as to points division in
skills.>>
Can't comment here, I didn't play SR1.
<<I use Dice Pools for my NPCs anyway, as it is more realistic and more
fair to
both sides. Threat Ratings were too vague for me.>>
<shrug> To each his own, I suppose. Dice pools wind up being a lot of
extra paperwork, though.
<<I don't know whether it is a minority opinion or not. I was responding
to
hearing others complain about Dice Pools or too many dice being a problem
in
2nd ed.>>
I just don't hear too many others advocating the removal of dice pools:)
> All IMO, like (almost) always.
<<Same here.>>
<aol>
me too!
</aol>
:)
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 20:34:29 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
Mime-Version: 1.0
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John E Pederson once dared to write,
>Everything in Shadowrun rounds down, unless the rules specifically state
>otherwise. I don't remember where I saw that, but I'm pretty sure it's in
>the main book somewhere.
Oops, not enough coffee I guess. The only rounding down that works
in your favor. That's why it always stood out for me.
- MC23, who is trying to recover face -
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 20:40:29 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
> Date: Saturday, July 05, 1997 8:34 PM
> John E Pederson once dared to write,
> >Everything in Shadowrun rounds down, unless the rules specifically state
> >otherwise. I don't remember where I saw that, but I'm pretty sure it's
in
> >the main book somewhere.
> Oops, not enough coffee I guess. The only rounding down that works
> in your favor. That's why it always stood out for me.
We play with a house rule that everything rounds "bad" for everyone. Since
there are only a couple of exceptions to this anyway, it makes it easier to
keep track of stuff. Whenever left with a fraction, round in whichever
direction is worse for you. This works the same for both PCs and NPCs.
IMO, it adds to the oppressive feel of Shadowrun. :)
> - MC23, who is trying to recover face -
Don't worry about it. :)
Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:02:56 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
On Fri, 4 Jul 1997 18:41:36 +0100 "Simon T. Sailer"
<Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT> writes:
>Just one thing: Caric would be veeeeery stupid if he had learnt the
>spell at level 4. Why not at level 6? costs just 2 spell points
>more, while it makes the spell really deadly. This was a problem in
>my group: every single combat spell was at level 6, and there was no
>thing that could have been done about it.
>Combat spells only make sense at level 6.
Yeah, but that's irrelevant to what Steve is saying (which BTW is how
combat spells have been run in our SR games for quite some time now).
~Tim
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:02:57 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
On Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:46:21 +0100 Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
writes:
>|I wish the system had magic based as a learnable skill... like anyone
has
>|the natural talent to use magic, however the years of training required
to
>|harness the ability is beyond the willpower of most people... like say
any
>|mundane given enough years of study could learn magic... I dont like
the
>|idea of magic being based entirely on genetics...
>
>The magic level isn't high enough yet in shadowrun.
>In Earthdawn however, that's exactly how it is.
>
>ATM though, only people born with the talent can access it.
>
>Hmmm... How about introducing Level 3 mages? (i.e. people with ONE
special
>ability and nothing else magical, to reflect on the increase in Magic???
>
>Say, like, a human chooses magic at 3, and can choose ONE ability.
>He could choose, say, one spell (but not get sorcery or pool), or
astral
>sight, or telekinesis, or whatever he wanted).
>
>That'd make a nice evolution in the game.....
Could be interesting... wait, doesn't that sound a bit like the "magical
edges" in the companion?
(I don't own, nor have I read the companion, but I've heard enough about
it from this list...)
You *could* also do it by letting the character have magic at C (or what
ever corresponding point value that would be), with the restriction that
they can get NONE of the skills at char-gen, nor do they get ANY force
points.... which consequently means that they get no pools or spells at
all, these must be learned "from the ground up" as it were.
I don't know what you'd do about Astral Perception or Projection
though...
~Tim
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:30:28 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: [SR3] Consolidated Health Spells
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
I have never understood the need for separate spells for healing
different levels of disease, poison, raise/lower attribute, etc. Why
would anyone take the lower levels of these spells knowing that they
might need one of a different level. These should all be unified like
Heal and Treat were when 2nd edition came out. It just makes more sense
to do so. They should be 1 spell with different drains for the different
levels.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:45:55 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Consolidated Health Spells
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
> Date: Saturday, July 05, 1997 9:30 PM
> I have never understood the need for separate spells for healing
> different levels of disease, poison, raise/lower attribute, etc. Why
> would anyone take the lower levels of these spells knowing that they
> might need one of a different level. These should all be unified like
> Heal and Treat were when 2nd edition came out. It just makes more sense
> to do so. They should be 1 spell with different drains for the different
> levels.
I agree fully. I was just discussing this the other night. Thanks for
bringing it up, MC23. :)
Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 18:57:52 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "David R. Lowe" <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Re: introduction
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Gosh, I feel like I should be pulling royalties off this. Seriously, glad
you enhjoyed it, I'm curious to know how ya'll fared with the run. Thanks
to you, I'm thinking of writing it up all nice and submitting it to TSS so
the rest of the innocent out there can enjoy it too.
D.
At 4:09 PM 7/5/97, Bull wrote:
>At 12:22 PM 7/5/97 +0100, Gurth wrote these timeless words:
>
>>In case anyone's wondering, this somewhat strange behavior is due to David
>>Lowe's Elvis adventure, which I ran recently... Very funny :)
>>
>I'd be VERY interested to here the details of the run, Gurth, if you don;t
>mind...
>
>I'm considering modifying that run to utilize my "First Church of
Elvis"...:]
>
>Bull
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:00:02 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: William Monroe Ashe <wma6617@****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: something different ... actors for SR
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
It's not that I'm getting tired of all of the SR-3 comments ... well I'm
a little tired of the sniping and name calling.
so to introduce something a little different:
I was thinking about which actors would play the human forms of the various
great dragons if SR ever made it to a screen (big or small).
Here's my votes:
Hasselich (sp?) yeah, yeah, not a great dragon, but still appeared in
many SR books: I see him as young, aggressive so I would argue that Gary
Oldham would do well.
Lofwyr; I see him as very urbane, witty, european ... so no question,
Patrick Stewart
Dunkelzahn: I see him as very charming, very "pretty" So I would cast
Tom Cruise (both for cheesy marketing reasons, and he can actually act
sometimes)
Hestaby: I've never read CFS all of the way through so I don't really
have a good grasp on her personality. So perhaps Theresa Russell
and for your debate:
Ehran the Scribe: Roger Moore
Harlequin: I have no idea
Jenna Ni Farrian (sp?) Winona Ryder (w/ read hair <grrrowwl>)
Sean Laverty: Sean Connnery
any body else I forgot?
regards
Bill
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:11:35 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 03:11 PM 7/5/97 -0400, MC23 wrote:
>I play up the stealth-undetectable aspects of PhysAds in my game. I
>have considered though giving the iniatition cost a .5 multipler
>reduction for physical adepts only. I haven't quite given over completely
>to it though. I would say this is all they would need.
I also, utilize the great potential for stealth that physads have access to.
Since stealth is cheap to raise by Magic (.25 magic/level) and it has no
limit (most skill enhancements are limited to your base "natural" skill
level), it can be raised to obscene levels cheaply. Athletics, I believe,
also functions this way. Throw in abilities like *natural* heightened
senses (much better than the cybered equivalents), and traceless walk and
you've got yourself one vicious infiltration expert with great perceptive
skills, speed like a track star, climbing ability like a spider monkey, and
can use it all with unparalleled stealth...
I'd hold off on giving physads a 0.5 initiation modifier, that would produce
monstrous physads over a very short time, killing game balance between
characters. If you truly feel they need an initiation boost, try what
someone else mentioned and allow them to skip the 0 level of initiation.
>Also don't forget that PhyAds can get magically healed easier than
>their Sammie buddy lying next to him. I've seen that happen in plenty a
>game, Serious to Light with just "a wave of the hand".
Physads have a lot of benefits (most of which were already mentioned by
myself and others in this thread) that some physad players take for granted.
The only problem appears to be satisfying those who remember playing the
unstoppable demigods that physads were in 1st edition. Just remember one
thing... B priority, it all makes a lot more sense when you look at it from
a priority standpoint. They're fine as they are and they're still superior
to the rest of the adepts...
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:46:53 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Archie Burks <Dragathor@***.COM>
Subject: Pools
Hi,
I have a small problem, My SR2 manual was lost and I need some clarification
on the combat pool. To calculate its value you would add INT, WIL, and QIC
then divide by two? I believe this is the proper way, if I am wrong then
please let me know.
Thank you, Archie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:04:48 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Archie Burks <Dragathor@***.COM>
Subject: SR/ED ties
Has FASA released anything or plan to release anything concerning the ties of
Earthdawn to Shadowruns past? Our gaming group has come to the conclusion
that ED is the 3rd age whilr SR is the 6th age. It should follow as
1st: Creation of magic and all else
2nd: the age of Dragons,
3rd: the therans &
the first scourge
4th: The world of Earthdawn
5th: Our world: Midevil to Present day
6th: Shadowrun
Each world was classed by the rise and fall of magic, most likly there were
many Scourges, Which in the modulr Harliquenns Back He hints at the coming
evil and there are Shadows (a lesser horror that appears before the big
horrors appear)
in the module. Its enough to raise quite a few questions:
!) is SR magic a limited form of adept magic or is a new form alltogether,
maybe Psionics?
2) is BigD also the famed ED dragon?
3) just how old is Erhan the Scribe,
4) just when will all the elves in Tir start having thorns pop out of thier
skin ( didn't one of the SR books have illistration of a blood elf?)
5) when will Tir turn into a jungle full of wood spirts ( or has it allready
and we just don't know.) ?
Just some food for thought, Archie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:35:10 PDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Scott Spencer <java@**********.COM>
Subject: NPC Maitnence
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
With all this talk of Npc Maitnence, I feel that I must contribute.
As the only person who runs Shadowrun for my little circle of devotee's I
find I must fall back on the old tried and true method of coming up with
new NPC, I let the players do all the dirty work!
Any Character that is killed, Retires without sanction, or heads for the
hills never to be heard from again gets the official title of (insert drum
roll here) GOD'S Cannon Fodder!
I just rename them, tweak their skills and so on. (My puppets I mean
Players swear that I tack 30 Karma points on as well.) and after the game,
I secretly assign Karma points to these NPC and up skills etc, usually
chortleing with glee. After 8 glorious years of playing God, I have quite
a collection amassed. Lately, however, I have noticed that all my players
are wearing lighters around their necks, are they on to Me? :}
Java
Come worship at the alter of the Coffee God....
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:39:44 PDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Scott Spencer <java@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Pools
In-Reply-To: <970705224652_93137952@*******.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Hi,
>
> I have a small problem, My SR2 manual was lost and I need some
clarification
> on the combat pool. To calculate its value you would add INT, WIL, and
QIC
> then divide by two? I believe this is the proper way, if I am wrong then
> please let me know.
>
> Thank you, Archie
Yepper
Java
And the Coffee God was pleased....
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:33:02 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: WILLIAM T COLEMAN <darkknight12@****.COM>
Subject: Request for feedback.
I was looking for some feedback on three things that had recently came up
in our campaign:
1- What do other GM's think of using the Tattoo Magic rules (pps. 96 -
97 UNDERWORLD SOURCEBOOK) to "etch" a Quickened spell on a sword or some
other object?
2- What would happen if a magician quickened a spell that was only
active on the astral? Would the spell sit at the spot it was cast at?
What if the spell was Astral Blade (p.10 Shadowland Volume 6?)
3- When speaking about the Physical Adept Ability of Improved Physical
Senses (p.125 SRII) the book says that, "Unless an improvement involves a
radio or similar technological phenomena, anything that can be improved
by cyberware can be improved by this power." Would the GM's out there
support buying Physical Adept versions of the Spatial Recognizer and the
Balance Augmentor (p. 24 CYBERTECHNOLOGY)?
---------------
Bill Coleman
--To achieve things beyond the reach of ordinary men requires
foreknowledge.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:21:54 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Request for feedback.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:33 PM 7/5/97 EDT, Bill wrote:
>1- What do other GM's think of using the Tattoo Magic rules (pps. 96 -
>97 UNDERWORLD SOURCEBOOK) to "etch" a Quickened spell on a sword or some
>other object?
It sounds to me that you'd be more interested in checking out Anchoring than
the Tattoo Magic rules. I would rule that Tattoo Magic could not be used on
anything other than living beings due mainly to the fact that it is always
clearly stated that the wearer of any given tattoo gains the benefit and the
fact that I've never heard of an item having a tattoo before...
>2- What would happen if a magician quickened a spell that was only
>active on the astral? Would the spell sit at the spot it was cast at?
>What if the spell was Astral Blade (p.10 Shadowland Volume 6?)
Ach! Non-canon spells have a tendency to cause little problems like this.
I don't know anything about the spell "Astral Blade" so I really can't say...
>3- When speaking about the Physical Adept Ability of Improved Physical
>Senses (p.125 SRII) the book says that, "Unless an improvement involves a
>radio or similar technological phenomena, anything that can be improved
>by cyberware can be improved by this power." Would the GM's out there
>support buying Physical Adept versions of the Spatial Recognizer and the
>Balance Augmentor (p. 24 CYBERTECHNOLOGY)?
Sure, I'd allow it. The Spatial Reconizer enhances and filters hearing to a
degree that allows more pinpointed location than regular hearing so it's
fine. The Balance Augmentor is perhaps a bit powerful for 0.25 magic, so
maybe give a -1 modifier per level of "enhanced balance" for game-balance
purposes. Sounds good to me anyway...
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:41:24 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Pools
On Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:46:53 -0400 Archie Burks <Dragathor@***.COM>
writes:
>Hi,
>
>I have a small problem, My SR2 manual was lost and I need some
>clarification
>on the combat pool. To calculate its value you would add INT, WIL,
>and QIC
>then divide by two? I believe this is the proper way, if I am wrong
>then
>please let me know.
That is correct.
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:41:24 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties [possible spoilers]
On Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:04:48 -0400 Archie Burks <Dragathor@***.COM>
writes:
!!!SPOILERS!!!
W
A
T
C
H
O
U
T
!
F
A
L
L
I
N
G
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
Z
O
N
E
Okay, so there may not be too many spoilers, even so...
<<Has FASA released anything or plan to release anything concerning the
ties of Earthdawn to Shadowruns past?>>
Doubtful. They have yet to release any official "here-it-is" stuff on the
ED-SR links, however, various crossovers exist (like Bottled Demon).
<<Our gaming group has come to the conclusion that ED is the 3rd age
whilr SR is the 6th age. It should follow as
1st: Creation of magic and all else
2nd: the age of Dragons,
3rd: the therans &
the first scourge>>
Now, I'm not an ED person, but I thought that was part of the 4th world
(Earthdawn)?
<<4th: The world of Earthdawn
5th: Our world: Midevil to Present day
6th: Shadowrun
Each world was classed by the rise and fall of magic,>>
Actually, each world was determined by the point at which the mana curve
reached a certain limit on the slope. As X approaches, lets say 10 for
the sake of discussion, either mana rises or falls, depending on what X
equals. When X reaches 10, a new world begins. The odd-numbered worlds
are generally those w/o magic, the even-numbered are those with it (so
far as we know).
<<most likly there were many Scourges, Which in the modulr Harliquenns
Back He hints at the coming evil and there are Shadows (a lesser horror
that appears before the big horrors appear) in the module.>>
Thought so. That's called a spoiler, Archie. Lots of people don't like
'em 'cause they tend to spoil (hence the name) possible surprise at later
points in the adventure. I intend to later run this adventure for my
players (one of whom is on the list), I don't need any help giving any of
it away (luckily, ignorance shields me, as I haven't yet bought HB). In
any case, big stuff like that needs to have some spoiler space, or else
you're gonna get flamed. Just a warning.
<<Its enough to raise quite a few questions:
!) is SR magic a limited form of adept magic or is a new form
alltogether,
maybe Psionics?>>
Again, I'm not an ED person, but I've heard it referred to as "raw"
magic.
<<2) is BigD also the famed ED dragon?>>
You mean Mountainshadow/Dark Tooth? So far as we know, yes. Well, he used
to be.
<<3) just how old is Erhan the Scribe,>>
Not as old as Harlequinn's socks:) Actually, Wordsmyth, Laughing Man, and
most of the other 4th worlder elves are approximately 7000 years old by
the time SR rolls around.
<<4) just when will all the elves in Tir start having thorns pop out of
thier
skin ( didn't one of the SR books have illistration of a blood elf?)>>
When the mana gets high enough (which is to say, we don't have a clue,
but sometime).
<<5) when will Tir turn into a jungle full of wood spirts ( or has it
allready
and we just don't know.) ?>>
<shrug>
Who knows if it ever will?
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:02:49 +1000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707031949.PAA08962@www.ctghub.com>;
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> > It's excuse my french to damn easy for a mage to toss force 6 and 8
> > fireballs with out taking much drain or drain at all. They're already to
> > powerful this just stands to balance things out. They toss a force 6
>
> How are they powerful if you take this away? Spells are the only
> thing that makes them powerful. It makes no sense to throw a spell
> and take as much or more damage that what you are dishing out.
That doesn't actually happen, you know. I recently retired a sorceror
adept that I was playing under the force-drain rules. Her favourite
spell was her Mana Dart 8. A little centering, some magic pool and a
decent Willpower (and hers was only 4 to start with) and it was quite
conceivable that she'd take NO drain - yet, with 8 spell dice and (say)
4 magic pool dice, against an opponent with (say) 4 willpower, that's an
average of 6 successes. And I'd like to see someone with willpower 4
resist an 8D, while I take no drain (or a Light drain at worst).
The Force Drain rule is QUITE workable for mages... you just have to be
careful with what you cast and at who. (It also makes Fetish Foci
REALLLLLLLY useful :)
Lady Jestyr
-----------------------------------------------
All stressed out and no-one to choke...
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 02:07:33 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: (OT) Admin by the Hour?
In a message dated 97-07-05 13:26:24 EDT, fro@***.AB.CA (Adam J) writes:
>
> Starting in April, LIS moved to a 90hrs a month/30 bucks, after 90 hours
> each hour was billed at a dollar. I was not notified of this until May
> 10th, when I had already wracked up a charge of 262 dollars for April.
> I should be switching ISP's soon, but since I'm trying to con my way to
> gencon, I can't exactly be nagging my folks for a loan for internet stuff
> right away.
> As for the offer of help, thanks, but no :) Most of you are just as broke
> as me, anyways.. :)
> Seriously, I am online less frequently now, and I get online, download
> mail, say Hi to the folks on IRC, log off, read mail, write mail, log on,
> send, log off, and then do other stuff. Do that 4 times a day, and my 3
> hours is pretty much burned up :P
>
Maybe something you should check into is go to your local small business
administration department in the local government ... by law they were
supposed to have notified you of the changes in the billing procedure ... if
there is a lawyer you can also consult for free with do so, as he would be an
excellent source of information on what you should do.
The notification was also supposed to be in writing ... nothing electronic
...
Document what has happened since you received the notification via a bill and
not a written notice explaining the changes ahead of time ...
Be persistent with them ... and if you have to, change you and your families
account over to aol ... and yes ... I would be able to help you pay for the
account ... $24 a month is not a problem for me ...
And you may be surprised by any of the others in the group that decide to
contribute ...
FYI ... I am one of Keith's roommates, Mike, I go by the handle of AirWisp.
I am not subscribing as I do not want our mail buffer to become overloaded
with duplicate mail ... but I do read over his shoulder ...
Don't give up on the bill ... unless someone did not share with you the
information ...
Keep us posted ... though individually we may not be able to help completely
... as a group we could help you ... all you need to do is ask ... some of us
can help ...
Take care,
AirWisp, Mike Bobroff
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:32:22 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: introduction
In-Reply-To: <v01540b01aff179400ea8@[140.174.162.175]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 18:57 7/5/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Gosh, I feel like I should be pulling royalties off this. Seriously, glad
>you enhjoyed it, I'm curious to know how ya'll fared with the run. Thanks
>to you, I'm thinking of writing it up all nice and submitting it to TSS so
>the rest of the innocent out there can enjoy it too.
Yes! A submission I don't have to beg for! :)
:)
:):)
-Adam
--
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
"Can I have a cup of angst to go with my un-happy meal?" -- Hi & Lois
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:15:21 +1000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707032134.QAA17366@********.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> Try in the realm of impossible...lets assume a Sammie with a body of 6 (low
> for a Sammie if you ask me) and the mageboy is casting Powerbolt (fairly
> common spell) if that spell is force four the mage is doing more damage (I
Any mageboy who tries to drop a sammy with a POWERBOLT (*rotfl*)
deserves whatever damage he does to himself with drain. Pfah!
Lady Jestyr
-----------------------------------------------
All stressed out and no-one to choke...
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:28:25 +1000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <970704202256_457249877@*******.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> Sure can, Round UP on the drain codes, as it states in the books, only the
> Otaku get the "round in their favor" attitude. Initiation for magicians
also
> gets to round down, but that is about it.
Actually, hate to nitpick, but somewhere in GrimII (early in the book)
it says something along the lines of "blah blah blah round down, as is
always the case in SRII unless stated otherwise". Can't remember the
exact words, and I don't own the Grimmy... anyone care to be more exact?
Lady Jestyr
-----------------------------------------------
All stressed out and no-one to choke...
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 02:44:40 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Request for feedback.
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 05 Jul 1997 23:33:02 -0400 (EDT)"
<19970705.232904.10071.1.darkknight12@****.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
You wrote:
> 3- When speaking about the Physical Adept Ability of Improved Physical
> Senses (p.125 SRII) the book says that, "Unless an improvement involves a
> radio or similar technological phenomena, anything that can be improved
> by cyberware can be improved by this power." Would the GM's out there
> support buying Physical Adept versions of the Spatial Recognizer and the
> Balance Augmentor (p. 24 CYBERTECHNOLOGY)?
I'd say both of those would be prime candidates for this Physical Adept power,
and good uses for the points. :)
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:54:09 +1000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
In-Reply-To: <9c2h7EASzZvzEw7T@*******.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> all intents and purposes "invisible". Stuck in the rafters of the
> garage/warehouse, it is incredibly difficult to spot, unless you know
> precisely where the thing is. These units alone are available to the
> common user for about 800 Uk pounds - say 1,000 US. Now that's just one
> example of the kind of preventative measures available today.
As another example, a company in Australia (Oatley Electronics, for
anyone who knows or cares) sells kits for teeny-weeny li'l cameras.
Remember the camera that was concealed in Vanessa Williams' brooch in
Eraser? It's that camera. It's sold in kit form to everyday Australians
for $130 AUS (about $100 US). For about the same price you can buy a kit
transceiver, and the two together will fit into a cigarette softpack.
The lens of the camera itself is less than 1cm in diameter. You can
then tune your VCR or television to the transceiver signal and record
and/or watch what the camera sees. Presto. :)
Lady Jestyr
-----------------------------------------------
All stressed out and no-one to choke...
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 02:55:36 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 05 Jul 1997 20:21:33 -0400 (EDT)"
<19970705.202029.20311.2.lobo1@****.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
You wrote:
> Well, as far as I know, you don't get dice pools when a) you're
> defaulting or b) you're chipping the skill.
Actually I was unaware of this, but it makes sense in both cases.
So a character without
> Unarmed Combat still can't defend himself decently, he just has a lot
> more dice to throw into damage resistance.
And that's part of my problem. Before, people ran out of dice in their Defense
Pool, now it's a lot harder, based off of attributes. Mages can throw spells
to wear a target down for the party, safe and secure that their Combat Pool is
there to help pull their butt out of the fire (Quickness and Willpower usually
being fairly high for mages anyway). I don't like folks who don't participate
in much combat (meaning firearms or melee skills) being able to dodge and
defend against those pretty well. It was a good reason for a lot of characters
to take at least some Unarmed Combat, and diversify their skills a bit, imo.
And of the archetypes, I
> didn't see too many of them who had more than 1 die to spare if they
> threw as much combat pool into a given attack to double it. And the ones
> that did usually didn't have combat skills that were *that* high anyway.
Street Samurai: Firearms 5, Unarmed Combat 6 (and hand razors)
Mercenary: Firearms 6, Armed Combat 6 CP: 8
Former Company Man: Firearms 6, Unarmed Combat 6 CP: 5
Bodyguard: Firearms 6, Unarmed Combat 6 CP: 8
No, they don't have a great many dice left following that, but have likely
waxed the target with 4 added dice to the attack (10 dice), at least that's
been my experience. I liked that the old pools (dodge/defense) represented
your ability to defend against incoming attacks, representing your dividing
your attention between incoming threats, and that one or two attacks usually
depleted your reserve of defending dice, you had to rely on Body after that.
I'd almost like to see something like what I proposed for Sorcery Pools (under
the drain discussion): Base a dice pool off of firearms (or whichever combat
skill you use on your action) to attack _and_ defend with. If you don't use all
your Firearms dice in the attack test, you can save them to dodge (this meaning
you're snapping off quick shots and keeping in cover a lot and watching for
possible attacks). And you could only use the *appropriate* skill to defend
against an incoming attack (though melee weapons and unarmed combat would be
interchangeable, as might firearms and projectile/thrown weapons).
> <shrug> To each his own, I suppose. Dice pools wind up being a lot of
> extra paperwork, though.
I found Threat Ratings too abstract for me, and GMing the most I found the dice
pools comfy. They were simpler when they only came into defense (1st ed) and I
still prefer them that way.
> I just don't hear too many others advocating the removal of dice pools:)
Maybe it's my pet peeve. I see it as the simplest way to remove excess dice,
as they're the single biggest source of extra dice.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 04:02:11 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Name Players in Books (OT)
Okay, I have also gotten the Target UCAS, and I just want to say this much...
Granite...Fro....(congrats)
(bows in heavy admiration, kisses the ground...okay, maybe not that far...)
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 04:05:06 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Resisting Spell Force (Re: [SR3] Combat Spells)
In a message dated 97-07-05 11:12:14 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK (Spike)
writes:
> The sorcery skill can already be used to enhance spells by using the magic
> pool
> --
>
Sure it can, but the target number to resist in First Ed was the Sorcery
skill itself, so it's easier to raise the base skill itself (which is also
the magic pool) and get the spells cheaper. It doesn't make the magicians
(spellcasters) less powerful, it makes them FAR more powerful.
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 04:19:54 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Game Initiative (was Game Lethality)
In a message dated 97-07-05 16:13:55 EDT, bull_22@*******.COM (Bull) writes:
>
> Well, one time we had some wise ass powermunch make a Munched out Sammy
> with Wired 3, and lots of other boosts... Well, the fastest anyone else
in
> the group was was 2d6 Initiative (He started the campign late, and did
this
> despite my warnings and the protests of the other players). After 2 game
> sessions, where the other players got their asses kicked cause suddenly
> their facing guys with wired 2 and 3, and LMG's, and even a panther, they
> told the Munchy to leave the group. He was a shmuck, so I didn;t argue in
> the least...:]
Ya know Bull, I think that would be fun if people paid attention to that
fact. I almost have that for the games that I'm running now. The three
really heavy combat types (the merc, the physad and the combat mage) all hit
somewhere between the upper 20's to the upper 30's. The slightly combat
types (the enchanter and the healer) usually hit somewhere in the lower to
upper 20's. It was stunning watching them all come within an action set of
each other. And yes, the game here is a bit powerful.
>
> Sometimes, if you're lucky enough to have a few decent players, they'll
> regulate the group them selves, especially when they know you're more than
> willing to up the power levels...;]
>
> Bull
Yeah, but that luck needs to be cultivated. Damn I wish I had the money for
Gen Con now...I'd love to play with some of the people on this list.
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 04:41:06 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Consolidated Health Spells
In a message dated 97-07-05 21:34:28 EDT, mc23@**********.COM (MC23) writes:
>
> I have never understood the need for separate spells for healing
> different levels of disease, poison, raise/lower attribute, etc. Why
> would anyone take the lower levels of these spells knowing that they
> might need one of a different level. These should all be unified like
> Heal and Treat were when 2nd edition came out. It just makes more sense
> to do so. They should be 1 spell with different drains for the different
> levels.
>
>
Okay, don't quote me on this, but I believe that when they changed the
Heal/Treat spells to the variable drain concept, they were just barely done
with testing it. I don't know how true that little rumor from way back is.
I agree with you though, and we've changed the rules a bit for the games
here. We kept the drain modifier though, to reflect some of the differences
that each type has between standard healing magic.
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 04:53:21 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: something different ... actors for SR
In a message dated 97-07-05 22:01:28 EDT, wma6617@****.TAMU.EDU (William
Monroe Ashe) writes:
>
> Hasselich (sp?) yeah, yeah, not a great dragon, but still appeared in
> many SR books: I see him as young, aggressive so I would argue that Gary
> Oldham would do well.
Oh yeah, that would work nicely...
>
> Lofwyr; I see him as very urbane, witty, european ... so no question,
> Patrick Stewart
I would agree except that Patrick isn't tall enough. Give him lifters or
stilt shoes...yeah, it'd be neat.
>
> Dunkelzahn: I see him as very charming, very "pretty" So I would cast
> Tom Cruise (both for cheesy marketing reasons, and he can actually act
> sometimes)
OH God NO!!! Please, I beg you...I got into this conversation with someone
else here in Lafayette a few years back...please no...
How about, yeah this will sound strange, John Travolta...he's actually
starting to come into his own...and he's a big name now as well.
>
> Hestaby: I've never read CFS all of the way through so I don't really
> have a good grasp on her personality. So perhaps Theresa Russell
Possibly, but I somehow think that Jody Foster would actually do it better,
or perhaps Melissa Gilbert (did you catch her as the returned from the dead
Wife of Sheridan on B5?)
>
> and for your debate:
>
> Ehran the Scribe: Roger Moore
Though a nice idea...I don't think so. See below...how about...
> Harlequin: I have no idea
How about the red-headed guy from Pulp Fiction and Prophecy (the angel
Simon). Or Simon's evil counterpart... (Gabriel in Prophecy) Christopher
Walken (he's got an honestly twisted sense of humor in real life)
> Jenna Ni Farrian (sp?) Winona Ryder (w/ read hair <grrrowwl>)
Oh brother...
> Sean Laverty: Sean Connnery
NO!!! He'd be a far better Ehran...Sean Laverty could be Mel Gibson...
> any body else I forgot?
> regards
> Bill
Yeah, how about...
Alachia (Queen Dike of the Universe)...Uma Thurman (loved that Gorilla
drop-the-fur-suit in Batman & Robin)
Arleesh (Feathered Serpent of Bottling Fame)...Whitney Houston (slimmer
version, for the looks)
Prince Surehand (the lost kid on the block) ... David Duchovny (of X-Files
Fame)
I'm too tired to think of others...
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 04:55:31 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
In a message dated 97-07-05 22:13:11 EDT, topcat@***.NET (TopCat) writes:
>
> I'd hold off on giving physads a 0.5 initiation modifier, that would
produce
> monstrous physads over a very short time, killing game balance between
> characters. If you truly feel they need an initiation boost, try what
> someone else mentioned and allow them to skip the 0 level of initiation.
>
>
I would have to agree with TopCat here. Other options would be to perhaps
give the player-character the chance to meet some nice Free Spirit with
Astral Gateway. Could help him initiate a bit sooner if need be. Sure, the
karma to the spirit is a bit expensive, but it might help.
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 05:01:30 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Request for feedback.
In a message dated 97-07-06 00:13:52 EDT, darkknight12@****.COM (WILLIAM T
COLEMAN) writes:
>
> 1- What do other GM's think of using the Tattoo Magic rules (pps. 96 -
> 97 UNDERWORLD SOURCEBOOK) to "etch" a Quickened spell on a sword or some
> other object?
Very nice idea actually...I've got me favorite Enchanter doing stuff like
this LONG before the UwS came out. Give's rise to the development of
artistic skills.
>
> 2- What would happen if a magician quickened a spell that was only
> active on the astral? Would the spell sit at the spot it was cast at?
> What if the spell was Astral Blade (p.10 Shadowland Volume 6?)
That sounds like copyright infringement (I'm the creator of the Magesword
spells)...just kidding on the infringement, but seriously...the idea of
"Astral Only" quickenings rises up a lot of debate. I have house rules for
such "free form magic", but they require some thinking I'm not really good to
do at 4 am in the morning...
>
> 3- When speaking about the Physical Adept Ability of Improved Physical
> Senses (p.125 SRII) the book says that, "Unless an improvement involves a
> radio or similar technological phenomena, anything that can be improved
> by cyberware can be improved by this power." Would the GM's out there
> support buying Physical Adept versions of the Spatial Recognizer and the
> Balance Augmentor (p. 24 CYBERTECHNOLOGY)?
Oh yeah, without a doubt. I have had the physads in the games here pay for
stuff with levels (like Sound Filter and Optic Magnification) on a level per
purchase basis.
> ---------------
> Bill Coleman
>
> --To achieve things beyond the reach of ordinary men requires
> foreknowledge.
>
-Keith (who can't believe what time it is)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 05:06:55 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Request for feedback. (question at the end)
In a message dated 97-07-06 00:44:07 EDT, topcat@***.NET (TopCat) writes:
>
> It sounds to me that you'd be more interested in checking out Anchoring
than
> the Tattoo Magic rules. I would rule that Tattoo Magic could not be used
on
> anything other than living beings due mainly to the fact that it is always
> clearly stated that the wearer of any given tattoo gains the benefit and
the
> fact that I've never heard of an item having a tattoo before...
I think that is why he mentioned the word "etch" in his posting...(wishing I
had blocked that section of the article)
> >3- When speaking about the Physical Adept Ability of Improved Physical
> >Senses (p.125 SRII) the book says that, "Unless an improvement involves a
> >radio or similar technological phenomena, anything that can be improved
> >by cyberware can be improved by this power." Would the GM's out there
> >support buying Physical Adept versions of the Spatial Recognizer and the
> >Balance Augmentor (p. 24 CYBERTECHNOLOGY)?
>
> Sure, I'd allow it. The Spatial Reconizer enhances and filters hearing to
a
> degree that allows more pinpointed location than regular hearing so it's
> fine. The Balance Augmentor is perhaps a bit powerful for 0.25 magic, so
> maybe give a -1 modifier per level of "enhanced balance" for game-balance
> purposes. Sounds good to me anyway...
> --
> Bob Ooton
> topcat@***.net
Ah come on Toppers, and here everyone's having this deep conversation about
Phys Ads getting the rip off compared to Street Samurai...
Hey, on the note of Cyber vs. Magic...the Shadowtech book introduces the
Enhanced Articulation modification. What about the Enhanced Articulation
ability in the Awakenings? Could they do the same thing? Okay, I know I'm
asking for the fire, but it was a question a couple of my players had a while
back.
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 05:11:39 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
Uhm, er, pardon me dear Lady...but I think the Admin EOD'd the topic...but
yours was a very enlightened post...
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 02:19:09 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Request for feedback.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
---WILLIAM T COLEMAN wrote:
>
> I was looking for some feedback on three things that had recently
came up
> in our campaign:
>
> 1- What do other GM's think of using the Tattoo Magic rules (pps.
96 -
> 97 UNDERWORLD SOURCEBOOK) to "etch" a Quickened spell on a sword or
some
> other object?
Sounds more like an anchoring issue than tattoo magic.
> 2- What would happen if a magician quickened a spell that was only
> active on the astral? Would the spell sit at the spot it was cast
at?
> What if the spell was Astral Blade (p.10 Shadowland Volume 6?)
Haven't seen the spell so I can't comment. My impression is that a
quickend spell is tied to the "physical" item the quickening was
placed on, much like a spell lock w/o the foci.
> 3- When speaking about the Physical Adept Ability of Improved
Physical
> Senses (p.125 SRII) the book says that, "Unless an improvement
involves a
> radio or similar technological phenomena, anything that can be
improved
> by cyberware can be improved by this power." Would the GM's out
there
> support buying Physical Adept versions of the Spatial Recognizer and
the
> Balance Augmentor (p. 24 CYBERTECHNOLOGY)?
I'd say yes, both could easily be physad abilities. However, w/o
having my books right with me, I can't if I'd rule each at the .25
cost.
===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 02:29:08 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: All-ones rule and spells
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
An issue came up in tonites games that I'd wanted to bounce off you
guys.
We play the "Oops" of "All-ones" rule under the FoF option where 1's
equal to or greater than the skill rating in dice means an oops. (i.e.
- A character with Firearms 5 also adds 5 dice from Combat Pool, for a
total of 10 dice. Should five or more of those ten dice come up as 1's
some EGM bad thing happens.)
Anyways, how does such a rule apply to spell casting since a skill
isn't directly involved in the roll? Is it 1's equal to or greater
than the force of the spell means an oops? This means force 1 spells
are rather touchy. Is it equal to or greater than Sorcery? This means
someone with a Sorcery skill of 6 that's rolling five dice or less
from spell force and pool can never screw it up.
We finally ruled that 1's equal to or greater than Sorcery -OR- all
dice coming up 1's, whichever is lower, means the spell caster flubbed
it.
Ideas, comments or suggestions?
===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 06:03:55 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> From: J. Keith Henry <Ereskanti@***.COM>
> Date: Sunday, July 06, 1997 4:55 AM
> In a message dated 97-07-05 22:13:11 EDT, topcat@***.NET (TopCat) writes:
> > I'd hold off on giving physads a 0.5 initiation modifier, that would
> produce
> > monstrous physads over a very short time, killing game balance between
> > characters. If you truly feel they need an initiation boost, try what
> > someone else mentioned and allow them to skip the 0 level of
initiation.
> I would have to agree with TopCat here. Other options would be to
perhaps
> give the player-character the chance to meet some nice Free Spirit with
> Astral Gateway. Could help him initiate a bit sooner if need be. Sure,
the
> karma to the spirit is a bit expensive, but it might help.
As a house rule, I allow PAs to gain access to 1.25 points in powers for
every 1 point of Magic Rating they "spend" on powers. However, they can
only use a total amount of powers equal to their Magic Rating at once.
Basically, this allows them to change the powers they have access to
slightly whenever they like, without giving them any more power. The
process for altering their powers takes a few hours and basically requires
undisturbed meditation.
This give the PA more flexibility, but not more power at any given time.
I already use a take on the gradual initiation rules. I allow anyone who
is initiating 2 Metamagical abilities per initiate grade. Also, in my
campaign, there is no Grade 0. Thus, when you first initiate, you are a
grade 1 initiate.
> -Keith
Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 06:07:58 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
> Date: Sunday, July 06, 1997 5:29 AM
> An issue came up in tonites games that I'd wanted to bounce off you
> guys.
> We play the "Oops" of "All-ones" rule under the FoF option where
1's
> equal to or greater than the skill rating in dice means an oops. (i.e.
> - A character with Firearms 5 also adds 5 dice from Combat Pool, for a
> total of 10 dice. Should five or more of those ten dice come up as 1's
> some EGM bad thing happens.)
> Anyways, how does such a rule apply to spell casting since a skill
<Snippage>
> Ideas, comments or suggestions?
The following is a snippet from my house rules:
Magical Misfires
The basics of this rule are taken from the Shadowrun Companion. Basically,
a magical misfire occurs when the number of 1s rolled on a magical success
test EXCEED the rating of the skill being used or the base force of the
spell being cast (whichever is appropriate). Keep in mind that this
includes ALL dice from Magic Pool, Fetishes, Foci, Exclusivity, and Totem
Modifiers. If a magical misfire occurs, use the rules regarding failing
the Willpower test when distracted while extended casting on page 3. If
the number of 1s rolled are EQUAL to the skill being used or the base force
of the spell being cast, then some odd effect will occur, but the basic
intention will be kept. For example, if casting a spell, the spell will
still go off and will still strike the desired target, but it may not be
quite as effective as it would have been normally. Or perhaps the spirit
being conjured will be more resistant to your influence, thereby reducing
the amount of services you can earn from it. The effect of this is
entirely up to the GM's discretion.
The magical misfire rules are not being implemented in order to treat magic
as a completely random and chaotic force. However, when trying to shove
too much energy into the framework of a spell not designed to handle more
than a small amount of excess energy, you are asking for trouble.
Also, in my campaign, I don't use this rule for anything other than spell
casting. Hope that helps! :)
> ===
>
> @>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:58:42 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Mentioning house rules (was Re: Effects of Bioware on magic...)
In-Reply-To: <199707051024.MAA12431@******.scc.uni-weimar.de>
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Raven said on 12:29/ 5 Jul 97...
> Bioware does not affect the Essence Rating of a Mage, it has a Body
> Index Rating which says you can't get any more Bioware than you have
> Body. It has effects on the magic rating though in the same manner as
> Cyberware because with the Bioware another DNA is implanted into the
> Mages Body.
Note that that is a house rule. It is always a good idea to mention that,
if you know it, because else David (or someone else) will get his hands
on Shadowtech some day, read that it _does_ cost Essence, and possibly
start to wonder which of the two is right.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:58:43 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: Request for feedback.
In-Reply-To: <970706050128_-1494460725@*******.mail.aol.com>
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J. Keith Henry said on 5:01/ 6 Jul 97...
> That sounds like copyright infringement (I'm the creator of the Magesword
> spells)
I thought so! :)
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:58:43 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties
In-Reply-To: <970705230447_1046885544@*******.mail.aol.com>
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Archie Burks said on 23:04/ 5 Jul 97...
Spoilers for Horrors and other ED-related subjects!
> Has FASA released anything or plan to release anything concerning the
> ties of Earthdawn to Shadowruns past?
It's not likely that will ever happen, but there is a file with the links
between ED and SR somewhere on an ED site on the WWW.
> Our gaming group has come to the conclusion that ED is the 3rd age whilr
> SR is the 6th age. It should follow as
>
> 1st: Creation of magic and all else
> 2nd: the age of Dragons,
> 3rd: the therans &
> the first scourge
> 4th: The world of Earthdawn
> 5th: Our world: Midevil to Present day
> 6th: Shadowrun
You're on the right track, but not quite there yet. ED is the fourth
world, SR the sixth. Even-numbered worlds have mana levels high enough to
have magic exist in, odd-numbered worlds don't. Each world is
approximately 5200 years long, and since the sixth world started in 2011,
the fourth world ended around 3190 BC ED is set some time after the peak
in mana level in the fourth world, so subtract a little less than 2500
years from that and you get the conclusion that it's set around 5500 BC,
or about 7500 years ago.
> Each world was classed by the rise and fall of magic, most likly there
> were many Scourges, Which in the modulr Harliquenns Back He hints at the
> coming evil and there are Shadows (a lesser horror that appears before
> the big horrors appear)
The Horrors have a "window" of about 200 years IIRC on either side of the
peak in mana level in which they can reach the astral and physical planes
from their native metaplane. Because of the Great Ghost Dance there is a
really big spike in the mana level in one spot in North America (and
another one in Hawaii because of a similar ritual) where they can almost
cross. One Horror, Ysrtgratehrgwehwewjhwrhwssblahblahblah, has certainly
come through (see Worlds Without End), and possibly one or two others as
well.
BTW, I thought the Shadows are from B5, not SR? :)
> in the module. Its enough to raise quite a few questions:
> !) is SR magic a limited form of adept magic or is a new form alltogether,
> maybe Psionics?
SR magic is a different way of doing magic than in ED. ED spellcasters
weave threads to patterns, while SR magic is essentialy ED's raw
spellcasting, though in SR it's safer because astral space isn't polluted
by the Horrors yet.
> 2) is BigD also the famed ED dragon?
Most likely he's Mountainshadow, who has a "human agent" called Darktooth;
translate that name into German and you get ...
Exactly.
> 3) just how old is Erhan the Scribe,
I believe he's younger than Harlequin, but not by much. At any rate he's
thousands of years old, for ease say about 7000 like Harley.
> 4) just when will all the elves in Tir start having thorns pop out of thier
> skin ( didn't one of the SR books have illistration of a blood elf?)
Only a mention of a painting of one. Whether they will ever have thorns
grow or not is open to speculation, and one theory was that the Tir
Tairngire elves are heavy into genetic research because of this
possibility, but IIRC that was denied by Mike Mulvihill, the SR line
developer.
BTW, I think you should know that Mike doesn't like immortal elves, so
there won't be (m)any new books dealing with them.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:58:43 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: [Admin] Bi-weekly Posting Guidelines.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970705105731.006e8954@****.lis.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Adam J said on 10:57/ 5 Jul 97...
> On Friday July 4th Gurth Said:
> >My real name is Bob. Bob Smith.
> >So now you know.
>
> Wow that a really cool name there Bob!
>
> -Adam
Hey! What did I tell you about mentioning my name where any idiot can read
it?!
:)
Seriously, this posting guidelines may be a good idea, except you may want
to replace the "good" example by something else, since it's totally OT for
ShadowRN. How about something like:
On 5 July 1997 Adam J said:
> We really need a ruling from FASA as to whether spells can be ground
> through quickenings.
Yeah, that's been long overdue. Hopefully SR3 will cover it...
-- Joe Blow
> 1e. Do not use Old-Shadowrun style quotes.
> Example
>
> [>>>>> Cool! <<<<<]
For the record, those quotes were >>>>>[ ]<<<<<...
Also maybe a more explicit mention of the Me Too syndrome would be useful.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:58:43 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: NPC maintenance
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970705110453.006e8ca8@****.lis.ab.ca>
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Adam J said on 11:04/ 5 Jul 97...
> I think thats SRMCP, Shadowrun Master Persona Control Program? Its still
> available on a web page, they'res a link from Paolo's archive, I'm almost
> sure..
It's called Encounter Tracker, written by Andy Adamczak; the URL and email
address in the readme.txt file that came with the prog are
http://www.teleport.com/~adamczak/ and <adamczak@********.com> though I
think I got a mail from him several months ago telling me that his address
had changed.
> Something I used with good success was a plain chalkboard. I used part of
> it for drawing basic maps and letting the players keep notes, and the other
> half for jotting down initiative, damage, etc.
> A whiteboard would probably work even better and be much cleaner, but also
> more expensive..
It's really cheap to DIY: just get a sheet of paper and have someone put
plastic around it (go to a copy shop for this), that doesn't cost a lot
of money and it's both strong and flexible. Alternatively, get a roll of
sticky plastic, the kind used for book covers, and put that around a
piece of thin cardboard. You should be able to write on either with a
whiteboard marker, just remember to erase it as soon as you don't need it
anymore -- I once had some problems cleaning the sheet when I left it for
a week.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:58:43 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707051529.LAA05595@****.provide.net>
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Justin Pinnow said on 11:29/ 5 Jul 97...
> This has always bothered me. It states in the BBB that an astrally
> projecting magician can feel that damaged is being caused to his meat body,
> but not much else can be sensed from it. But, it also states that even the
> slightest amount of damage will kill the meat body. What's the point of
> having a warning system if you don't have time to react?
I must say that it isn't on of my favorite rules either. Technically, you
could be killed just by astrally projecting while you're standing up
straight: your body falls to the floor, you get a bruised knee, and you
die. Very nice for the Really Evil GMs out there, but I tend to ignore
this.
> Personally, I am considering ignoring the "any damage will kill you while
> astrally projecting" rule. I feel that since all damage you take astrally
> will manifest on the meat body, that would just decrease the amount of
> damage you can take before dying.
As a house rule, you could say that all attacks against the magician's
body are resolved as if they do one damage level more than normal, IOW
that they get two automatic successes. This makes it dangerous for the
projecting magician if someone attacks the body, but not instantly lethal.
> Also, this allows for anyone watching his body to slap him real hard in
> order to get his attention. If we use the standard ruling, this would
> kill him. I think that's absurd. :)
In Burning Bright (though I know how that book mangles the magic system on
several occasions), the main character whose name I forgot tells someone
to slap him hard if something happens while he's astrally projecting, as
that will snap him back to his body almost instantly.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 07:12:19 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Mime-Version: 1.0
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J. Keith Henry once dared to write,
>I would have to agree with TopCat here. Other options would be to perhaps
>give the player-character the chance to meet some nice Free Spirit with
>Astral Gateway. Could help him initiate a bit sooner if need be. Sure, the
>karma to the spirit is a bit expensive, but it might help.
>-Keith
The problem I see with that is if you have to involve some outside
force to make the cost affordable then there is something wrong with the
original cost. The stripped down, bare bones rule should make sense in
itself. You shouldn't have to go through a Deus ex Michina everytime just
to make it affordable. That sounds broken to me.
And it doesn't help that my friends and I play lower karma award
games. We just don't feel comfortable giving awards of much more than 3
Karma per session. Amongst three GM's running three different campaigns
with three different styles of play there were different sets of
characters for those games. Karma totals never got that high to begin
with. It's probably the reason Karma pools never became such a grand
issue for our games.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:58:43 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: [SR3] Consolidated Health Spells
In-Reply-To: <199707060131.VAA09575@*********.mindspring.com>
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MC23 said on 21:30/ 5 Jul 97...
> I have never understood the need for separate spells for healing
> different levels of disease, poison, raise/lower attribute, etc. Why
> would anyone take the lower levels of these spells knowing that they
> might need one of a different level. These should all be unified like
> Heal and Treat were when 2nd edition came out. It just makes more sense
> to do so. They should be 1 spell with different drains for the different
> levels.
Remember that in SR1 the four different Heal spells all had their own
fixed Drain Code: if you used Heal Serious Wounds on someone who only had
a Light wound, you still took S2 drain, and you couldn't use that spell to
heal a Deadly wound.
Although since SR2 incorporated the eight different Heal and Treat into
two basic ones, it is strange that the same didn't happen with the other
health spells, yes.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:07:24 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
In-Reply-To: <19970705.180903.15575.1.z-i-m@****.com> from "Tim Cooper"
at Jul
5, 97 09:02:57 pm
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|Could be interesting... wait, doesn't that sound a bit like the "magical
|edges" in the companion?
|(I don't own, nor have I read the companion, but I've heard enough about
|it from this list...)
I don't have it either....
But I think that works in such a way that every smuck gets edge points.
Even a phys ad could buy extra abilities with them.
The level 3 mage would only get ONE ability, and that's it...
(He might be able to improve it with Karma, but it should be expensive.)
With edges, a phys ad could buy ALL his abilities AND get astral perception
effectively free.....
I don't like the idea of edges. Too munchy.
|You *could* also do it by letting the character have magic at C (or what
|ever corresponding point value that would be), with the restriction that
|they can get NONE of the skills at char-gen, nor do they get ANY force
|points.... which consequently means that they get no pools or spells at
|all, these must be learned "from the ground up" as it were.
Hmmmm.... I think I prefer mine better.
After all, after a few adventures, the disadvantage of that one would not be
as strong, and they'd begin to look like any other adept...
(Especially if he chose conjuring.... No spells)
|I don't know what you'd do about Astral Perception or Projection
|though...
I'd allow it as a special ability. They could only perceive/project, but not
much else. Any astral combat would default to a stat, say willpower with
penalties to T#... etc....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
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Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:12:26 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Consolidated Health Spells
In-Reply-To: <199707060131.VAA09575@*********.mindspring.com> from "MC23"
at
Jul 5, 97 09:30:28 pm
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|
| I have never understood the need for separate spells for healing
|different levels of disease, poison, raise/lower attribute, etc. Why
|would anyone take the lower levels of these spells knowing that they
|might need one of a different level.
Eh? 2nd edition there ARE only 2 health spells for healing. Heal and Treat.
In 1st Ed, they had treat light/moderate/serious/deadly, but not in second.
And believe me, it worked. The drain increased with the level, so if you'd
only taken a light wound, treat light worked fine.
Casting treat serious on a moderate wound was asking for unneeded drain....
I imagine that's the way the toxin spells are. It's a but more expensive
force wise, but hey....
These should all be unified like
|Heal and Treat were when 2nd edition came out. It just makes more sense
|to do so. They should be 1 spell with different drains for the different
|levels.
Oh, I get you now....
Maybe.... (It's probably a carry over from 1st. All I can say is, if you
want your players to have more force to play with, give 'em the unified
spell)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
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Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:14:09 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: something different ... actors for SR
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970705204707.10652A-100000@******.tamu.edu> from
"William Monroe Ashe" at Jul 5, 97 09:00:02 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Ahhhh, the old "who'd play who in shadowrun" thread....
It's been a few months since this one came up....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:29:40 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties
In-Reply-To: <970705230447_1046885544@*******.mail.aol.com> from "Archie
Burks" at Jul 5, 97 11:04:48 pm
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|
|Has FASA released anything or plan to release anything concerning the ties of
|Earthdawn to Shadowruns past? Our gaming group has come to the conclusion
|that ED is the 3rd age whilr SR is the 6th age. It should follow as
|
|1st: Creation of magic and all else
|2nd: the age of Dragons,
|3rd: the therans &
| the first scourge
|4th: The world of Earthdawn
|5th: Our world: Midevil to Present day
|6th: Shadowrun
Slightly wrong....
1st. Null magic time remembered by story/writing???/racial memory
2nd. First Magic remembered by VERY long lived beings (or their ancestors)
3rd. Null Magic. CLose to the end of this time, a book was found from the
end of the 2nd world warning of the horrors. The book contained valuable info
of protecting onesself from the horrors. (And gave the people who found it a
LOT of power. These people were the Therans).
4th. Earthdawn. The therans sold their secrets in exchange for
slaves/obedience and the submission of Barsaive to their rule. Etc etc etc.
We don't know how it all ends apart from the fact that the magic eventually
fades into....
5th. Our world. No magic. Technology slowely starts to form, and then
increases exponentially until cyberware and the matrix are formed. Which
leads us to....
6th. Shadowrun....
I think that just about sums it up... Although the Therans MIGHT have found
the book at close to the beginning of the 4th world....
|Each world was classed by the rise and fall of magic,
Nope. The worlds alternate. Odd numbers are no magic. Even high magic.
most likly there were
|many Scourges, Which in the modulr Harliquenns Back He hints at the coming
|evil and there are Shadows (a lesser horror that appears before the big
|horrors appear)
|in the module. Its enough to raise quite a few questions:
| !) is SR magic a limited form of adept magic or is a new form alltogether,
|maybe Psionics?
Nope. It's very limited adept magic. Think about it.
A quickening viewed from astral resembles a thread. We just haven't figured
out how to weave them into REALLY powerful spells.... Yet.....
|2) is BigD also the famed ED dragon?
It is generally believed that D is (or was) Darktooth?
|3) just how old is Erhan the Scribe,
Oh, about the same age as -H- I'd imagine.... Maybe 6 or 7 thousand years
old.... Possibly a bit more...
|4) just when will all the elves in Tir start having thorns pop out of thier
|skin ( didn't one of the SR books have illistration of a blood elf?)
They won't. At least, none of them that aren't immortal will.
They haven't undergone the ritual of thorns after all....
|5) when will Tir turn into a jungle full of wood spirts ( or has it allready
|and we just don't know.) ?
I thought that was what Aztlan was for.....
:)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:39:23 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Name Players in Books (OT)
In-Reply-To: <970706040210_783300270@*******.mail.aol.com> from "J. Keith
Henry" at Jul 6, 97 04:02:11 am
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|
|Okay, I have also gotten the Target UCAS, and I just want to say this much...
|
|Granite...Fro....(congrats)
|
|(bows in heavy admiration, kisses the ground...okay, maybe not that far...)
What about ME???????
Come on... Bung in some spoiler space and let me know WHAT WE SAY!!!!
Pretty please????
With loads of sucrose on it????
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
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Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:40:57 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Resisting Spell Force (Re: [SR3] Combat Spells)
In-Reply-To: <970706040504_-693571153@*******.mail.aol.com> from "J. Keith
Henry" at Jul 6, 97 04:05:06 am
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|
|In a message dated 97-07-05 11:12:14 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK (Spike)
|writes:
|
|> The sorcery skill can already be used to enhance spells by using the magic
|> pool
|> --
|>
|Sure it can, but the target number to resist in First Ed was the Sorcery
|skill itself, so it's easier to raise the base skill itself (which is also
|the magic pool) and get the spells cheaper. It doesn't make the magicians
|(spellcasters) less powerful, it makes them FAR more powerful.
I know that! I wasn't advokating going back to the Sorcery is the power of
the spell, I was just saying that the Sorcery skill is already used once in
spell casting in the form of the Magic pool, and SHOULDN'T be used twice.
It's overkill....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:46:36 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
In-Reply-To: <19970706092908.14875.rocketmail@*****.rocketmail.com> from
"Loki" at Jul 6, 97 02:29:08 am
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|Anyways, how does such a rule apply to spell casting since a skill
|isn't directly involved in the roll? Is it 1's equal to or greater
|than the force of the spell means an oops? This means force 1 spells
|are rather touchy. Is it equal to or greater than Sorcery? This means
|someone with a Sorcery skill of 6 that's rolling five dice or less
|from spell force and pool can never screw it up.
If it was me GMing, I'd have the mage lose it.
He'd lose all control over the energy he was wielding, and it would ground
out... Through HIM.....
Resist for damage AND drain....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
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Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 10:03:41 GMT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Shadowrun ML demon <shadowrn-ml@*******.hanse.de>"
<shadowrn-ml@*******.HANSE.DE>
Organization: Nightmare on Coin Street
Subject: Re: Effects of Bioware on magic...
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John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM> writes:
> Because the guys who programmed those character generators didn't manage
> to put that in? Technically, bioware increases Body Index. If the
> character is a magician, then it also reduces Essence, thus affecting
> their Magic attribute.
> <houserule>
> A common house rule is that it reduces Magic _as_though_ it had reduced
> Essence (Magic Rating becomes Essence-Body Index, rounded down).
> </houserule>
Uhm - I don't consider this a houserule, because the rules say: "the
character loses as much essence has he loses body" and "no body is
ever really lost". This implies that the essence loss due to bioware
is merely virtual as well.
Of course there has been quite a discussion about this because the
rules just can be read in two ways. So there are bascially three
positions:
1.) The rules say "Bioware costs Essence" and the rules are paramount
so we will follow them
2.) The rules say "Bioware costs Essence", but this doesn't make any
sense at all (Bioware is more intrusive than Cyberware that way and so
on) - so we create the houserule "Bioware just costs Magic".
3.) The rules say "Bioware justs costs Magic as if it had cost
essence" and this makes perfect sense.
Everyone should just pick whatever he likes the most, because this can
of worms has been opened too many times and we should not discuss this
anymore.
Later,
Georg
- --
Georg C. F. Greve <greve@*******.hanse.de>
http://porter.desy.de/~greve/
"People who fight may lose. People who do not
fight have already lost." -- Bertold Brecht
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=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 14:35:47 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Effects of Bioware on magic...
In-Reply-To: <ufoh8gv6o2.fsf@*******.hanse.de> from "Shadowrun ML demon
<shadowrn-ml@*******.hanse.de>" at Jul 6, 97 10:03:41 am
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|Uhm - I don't consider this a houserule, because the rules say: "the
|character loses as much essence has he loses body" and "no body is
|ever really lost". This implies that the essence loss due to bioware
|is merely virtual as well.
Now that what I call pedantic.
It was badly worded yes, but it's obvious what it MEANS.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 10:51:45 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Spike once dared to write,
>If it was me GMing, I'd have the mage lose it.
>He'd lose all control over the energy he was wielding, and it would ground
>out... Through HIM.....
>
>Resist for damage AND drain....
That's what I like about you. B>]#
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
"One can't complain. I have my friends.
Somebody spoke to me only yesterday."
-Eeyore, Winnie-the-Pooh
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:06:41 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Consolidated Health Spells
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Spike once dared to write,
>And believe me, it worked. The drain increased with the level, so if you'd
>only taken a light wound, treat light worked fine.
>
>Casting treat serious on a moderate wound was asking for unneeded drain....
>
>I imagine that's the way the toxin spells are. It's a but more expensive
>force wise, but hey....
<snip>
>Oh, I get you now....
>
>Maybe.... (It's probably a carry over from 1st. All I can say is, if you
>want your players to have more force to play with, give 'em the unified
>spell)
Now you see what I was talking about. All of those adjustable spells
should be one generalized spell with a sliding drain code for the
different levels. The drain could be perhaps slightly high than the
specific level spells to take in account the added versitility. For just
safety reasons now I don't know of any player that didn't take the
highest level of those spells anyway. In practice those lower level
spells were not being used.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 10:20:59 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: William Monroe Ashe <wma6617@****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: something different ... actors for SR
In-Reply-To: <4988.199707061214@******.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sun, 6 Jul 1997, Spike wrote:
> Ahhhh, the old "who'd play who in shadowrun" thread....
>
> It's been a few months since this one came up....
>
> --
I stand guilty before the crowd; But, I was really getting tired of the
name calling on all of the SR-3 stuff. Now people can call me names for
a while. Its not much of a switch, but its still a change.
Regards (and donning his asbestos suit, and recharging his home fire
extinquisher)
Bill
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:13:43 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Astral Projection and Death (was: [SR3] Drain)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Date: Sunday, July 06, 1997 7:58 AM
> Justin Pinnow said on 11:29/ 5 Jul 97...
<Snip>
> > Personally, I am considering ignoring the "any damage will kill you
while
> > astrally projecting" rule. I feel that since all damage you take
astrally
> > will manifest on the meat body, that would just decrease the amount of
> > damage you can take before dying.
> As a house rule, you could say that all attacks against the magician's
> body are resolved as if they do one damage level more than normal, IOW
> that they get two automatic successes. This makes it dangerous for the
> projecting magician if someone attacks the body, but not instantly
lethal.
That's a possibility. I feel that being prone to any attack and not being
able to dodge are pretty much enough to get you killed in one blow anyway,
if someone is intentionallay trying to kill you. I don't think anyone
needs the extra successes. ;)
> > Also, this allows for anyone watching his body to slap him real hard
in
> > order to get his attention. If we use the standard ruling, this would
> > kill him. I think that's absurd. :)
> In Burning Bright (though I know how that book mangles the magic system
on
> several occasions), the main character whose name I forgot tells someone
> to slap him hard if something happens while he's astrally projecting, as
> that will snap him back to his body almost instantly.
I recall that, yes. And although that book mangles the magic system a bit
in a few places, I also feel that it (ironically) gives the best
perspective on how magic works in SR - especially ritual magic.
Go figure... :)
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> Two words: therapy.
Heh
Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:23:50 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Magical Edges (was: [SR3] Physical Adepts)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
> Date: Sunday, July 06, 1997 8:07 AM
<Snip snip snip>
> The level 3 mage would only get ONE ability, and that's it...
> (He might be able to improve it with Karma, but it should be expensive.)
<Snip>
> |I don't know what you'd do about Astral Perception or Projection
> |though...
> I'd allow it as a special ability. They could only perceive/project, but
not
> much else. Any astral combat would default to a stat, say willpower with
> penalties to T#... etc....
Try visiting this URL:
http://www.arc.unm.edu/~james/skenson/magic_edges.html
The document is entitled "Magical Ability Breakdown" by Steve Kenson. I
think it's an excellent breakdown of the different magical abilities
available in Shadowrun. I use it in my game, and you may find it useful as
a reference for Magical Edges (as compared to the Comanion's version).
I have e-mailed Mr. Kenson a few times back and forth about these
abilities, and I feel he is a very patient and helpful person. If you have
any questions about the magical abilities presented in his document, you
can send him an e-mail and I am sure he won't mind. :) The e-mail links
are on his page.
Happy reading!
> |u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering
Pinky?" |
> |Andrew Halliwell |
|
Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:24:57 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
In a message dated 97-07-06 06:05:34 EDT, vanyel@*******.NET (Justin Pinnow)
writes:
>
> As a house rule, I allow PAs to gain access to 1.25 points in powers for
> every 1 point of Magic Rating they "spend" on powers. However, they can
> only use a total amount of powers equal to their Magic Rating at once.
> Basically, this allows them to change the powers they have access to
> slightly whenever they like, without giving them any more power. The
> process for altering their powers takes a few hours and basically requires
> undisturbed meditation.
A few hours? Though your idea to me has some very nice merit, I would have
to know what they have to do in order to change powers inside of a few
hours...
>
> This give the PA more flexibility, but not more power at any given time.
That much I really do like the idea of, but IMHO, this may not be the best
way for it to occur. I admit that I just haven't seen this in action, though
I've heard about on the nets for years now.
>
> I already use a take on the gradual initiation rules. I allow anyone who
> is initiating 2 Metamagical abilities per initiate grade. Also, in my
> campaign, there is no Grade 0. Thus, when you first initiate, you are a
> grade 1 initiate.
> Justin :)
I think I got lost in the "2 Metamagical" abilities area...could you describe
this a bit more, personal email if you like would be fine, but in the open
would be nicer. I'm just not familiar with what you are saying at all.
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:32:59 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Goofy Player Design on Magesword (OT)
After somestuff about "Astral Blade" and the game from the other night
here...one of my players decided to do something interesting...he decided to
"undesign" his magesword anchoring.
The reason is this, he had made a variation on the spell to do both versions,
the Mana and the Physical, through "Light" Elemental effect (yeah, big drain,
but the guy is Power-motif at it's finest and funniest) and boom, big bad
ugly blade that fit in the space of a flashlight (actually, he anchored it to
one)
Anyway, he kept trying to get the "no armor" bonus of the mana version and
the sheer guts/glory of the physical blade. Didn't understand what was going
on when it kept failing or acting weird with spell and blade barrier's.
Then he discovered the old Dual Nature rules of combat.
It was just a memory that crept up on me...had to get it out of my system...
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:35:16 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (spoilers removed for the unknowing)
In a message dated 97-07-06 07:01:06 EDT, gurth@******.NL (Gurth) writes:
>
> BTW, I thought the Shadows are from B5, not SR? :)
>
>
Hey, the SHADOWS!!!! Ultimate in Horror Manifestation (if they aren't,
nothing the frag is)
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:39:12 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
In a message dated 97-07-06 07:14:26 EDT, mc23@**********.COM (MC23) writes:
>
> The problem I see with that is if you have to involve some outside
> force to make the cost affordable then there is something wrong with the
> original cost. The stripped down, bare bones rule should make sense in
> itself. You shouldn't have to go through a Deus ex Michina everytime just
> to make it affordable. That sounds broken to me.
>
The problem MC23, is that a Physical Adept is going to need to do something
on the part of Astral Gateway in order to initiate, or at least find the
Astral Contact initially. On that topic, could people out there please give
me their impressions of Astral Contacts....what they are, etcetera
etcetera...
I know it's been covered before, but something on the game mechanics has been
tweaking my interests lately...it's on the topic of AC's and the Passions
from ED.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:42:56 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Archie Burks <Dragathor@***.COM>
Subject: Apology ( was:Re: SR/ED ties )
Sorry to all.
I didn't realize that my post would be considered by some as a spoiler. I
was just trying to see if anyone out there had a simular opion on the topic.
In the futur I will try to contain my post to general knowledge or the rules
themselves.
Also, when I siad the the worlds were defined by the rise and fall of magic,
I did mean that odd were without and even with magic. I just didn't say it
that way.
Archie
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:44:10 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
In a message dated 97-07-06 08:12:49 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK (Spike)
writes:
>
> With edges, a phys ad could buy ALL his abilities AND get astral
perception
> effectively free.....
Oh yeah sure, but -I- wouldn't want to have my character near the guy. Sure
he could have all sorts of bonuses, but he'd probably have God Himself as the
ultimate, level 6 enemy. I have used the enemies, bad karma, and dark secret
flaws to the safer limits. Even had a player choose Bad Karma as a flaw
after she went to far and her totem got upset with her. Her idea, not mine.
I liked her choice though.
>
> I don't like the idea of edges. Too munchy.
No No No, not munchy...crunchy, with cream filling in the middle...
Seriously, Munchkinism, like Power, is a Choice. People choose to play that
level, even if they've done it so long they forget why they choose it.
-Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 14:51:44 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: CCTV,
damn should have changed the header - was RE:Runner's Attitudes
In-Reply-To: <970706051137_1013513039@*******.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In article <970706051137_1013513039@*******.mail.aol.com>, "J. Keith
Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM> rambled on endlessly about Runner's Attitudes
>Uhm, er, pardon me dear Lady...but I think the Admin EOD'd the topic...but
>yours was a very enlightened post...
>-Keith
Admin ended the Runners Attitudes/corporate attitudes posts, Lady J and
I were talking about cameras - technology - something different tot he
original subject, and I must apologise for not having changed the
subject header.
--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:49:47 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
In a message dated 97-07-06 08:31:25 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK (Spike)
writes:
> | !) is SR magic a limited form of adept magic or is a new form
alltogether,
> |maybe Psionics?
>
> Nope. It's very limited adept magic. Think about it.
> A quickening viewed from astral resembles a thread. We just haven't
figured
> out how to weave them into REALLY powerful spells.... Yet.....
>
And I hope it never does. No offense guys, one of the reasons I dropped AD&D
is because it became very obvious that people, read as players, were just
hooked on getting lots of powers/magic/abilities and become something nasty.
I liked the fact that in order to get magical power above the old 5th level
of spells (give or take) required nasty ritual magic. Even Limited Wish
just irked me.
And then comes along ED, with spells that can level cities, adept powers that
rival the Spice Melange (spelling?) in pure form, and who knows what else...
Sounds like it'll destroy SR to me...
(sorry for the rant)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:52:22 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Archie Burks <Dragathor@***.COM>
Subject: Physical Adepts ( cost odf powers )
How do you find the power point for a Physical Adept?
When we first played ( years ago ) in our niaveity we used the same points as
magi do: Tech\resourses Spens an a priority and get 50 or so. If the adept
had essense lose then it came off of his magic rating and the x amount of
points. as long as he had at least one fvull magic point left hae had most of
his original points.
But then recently ( still years ago ) we decided that was over-board and
began using whatever the adepts magic rating was. This caused a definate
drop in thier power level.
Did anybody out there make this same mistake?
Archie
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:53:16 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> From: J. Keith Henry <Ereskanti@***.COM>
> Date: Sunday, July 06, 1997 12:24 PM
> In a message dated 97-07-06 06:05:34 EDT, vanyel@*******.NET (Justin
Pinnow)
> writes:
> > As a house rule, I allow PAs to gain access to 1.25 points in powers
for
> > every 1 point of Magic Rating they "spend" on powers. However, they
can
> > only use a total amount of powers equal to their Magic Rating at once.
> > Basically, this allows them to change the powers they have access to
> > slightly whenever they like, without giving them any more power. The
> > process for altering their powers takes a few hours and basically
requires
> > undisturbed meditation.
> A few hours? Though your idea to me has some very nice merit, I would
have
> to know what they have to do in order to change powers inside of a few
> hours...
The following are house rules and should not be taken as canon:
Basically, if the PA wants to alter his abilities to other powers he has
access to (remember that he has access to 1.25 points of powers per Magic
Rating point, but can only use 1.0 powers per Magic Rating point at once),
he must meditate without interruption for a number of hours equal to his
Magic Rating divided by 2 (round bad). If this meditation is interrupted,
the process is aborted and the powers remain as they were before the
meditation was attempted. This meditation does not provide rest as if
sleep had occurred, however. If the PA wants to gain the benefits of sleep
that day, he must also sleep the standard 6-8 hours, or whatever.
> > This give the PA more flexibility, but not more power at any given
time.
> That much I really do like the idea of, but IMHO, this may not be the
best
> way for it to occur. I admit that I just haven't seen this in action,
though
> I've heard about on the nets for years now.
I feel it's a reasonable way to allow a PA to have a little more
flexibility, without going overboard. Keep in mind that when they "spend"
their point of Magic Rating, they must also "spend" the other .25 point.
This way, they don't have access to any powers that exist, only the chosen
ones. Thus, a beginning PA with 6 points "spent" for PA powers would get
to "buy" 8 points worth of powers. He could only have 6 points active at
any given time, however. In order to activate any different powers he
knows, he would have to meditate for 3 consecutive hours.
> > I already use a take on the gradual initiation rules. I allow anyone
who
> > is initiating 2 Metamagical abilities per initiate grade. Also, in my
> > campaign, there is no Grade 0. Thus, when you first initiate, you are
a
> > grade 1 initiate.
> > Justin :)
> I think I got lost in the "2 Metamagical" abilities area...could you
describe
> this a bit more, personal email if you like would be fine, but in the
open
> would be nicer. I'm just not familiar with what you are saying at all.
Okay. :) Shielding, Centering, Masking, etc. are all Metamagical
abilities. When you Initiate, you are gaining access to Metamagic and the
abilities within the realm of Metamagic. Thus, in my campaign, when you
initiate the first time you choose 2 Metamagical abilities available to
your character (as appropriate) and you know them. You are also a Grade 1
Initiate. However, in order to learn Reflective Shielding, you would need
to already know Shielding (think of it as a prerequisite). You could NOT
learn both of these during the same Initiation. (There are other examples
of prerequisites, I believe, but this one came to mind first.) I also
require my players to find an instructor to introduce them into their first
Initiation. That way, the instructor can tell them that he doesn't feel
they are ready for the realm of Metamagic yet if they try to Initiate too
soon. Keeps some control in the hands of the GM.
To offset these limitations a little, I have done away with Grade 0
Initiation. It just doesn't exist.
Hope that helps. :)
The above were house rules, and should not be taken as canon.
> -Keith
Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:54:54 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Resisting Spell Force (Re: [SR3] Combat Spells)
In a message dated 97-07-06 08:45:04 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK (Spike)
writes:
>
> I know that! I wasn't advokating going back to the Sorcery is the power of
> the spell, I was just saying that the Sorcery skill is already used once
in
> spell casting in the form of the Magic pool, and SHOULDN'T be used twice.
>
> It's overkill....
> --
>
Oops, sorry, a bit hard to read that from the original line. My apologies...
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:56:02 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
In a message dated 97-07-06 08:47:59 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK (Spike)
writes:
>
> If it was me GMing, I'd have the mage lose it.
> He'd lose all control over the energy he was wielding, and it would ground
> out... Through HIM.....
>
> Resist for damage AND drain....
> --
>
I've done that before...player kind of stared at me like I was the
plague...my normal ruling is if they do the "Roll of 1's", then the drain
code is increased by 1 category.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:59:16 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Archie Burks <Dragathor@***.COM>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
<< And I hope it never does. No offense guys, one of the reasons I dropped
AD&D
is because it became very obvious that people, read as players, were just
hooked on getting lots of powers/magic/abilities and become something nasty.
I liked the fact that in order to get magical power above the old 5th level
of spells (give or take) required nasty ritual magic. Even Limited Wish
just irked me.
And then comes along ED, with spells that can level cities, adept powers
that
rival the Spice Melange (spelling?) in pure form, and who knows what else...
Sounds like it'll destroy SR to me...
( >>
If you want to play SR, then play it. If you want to play ED, then play it.
If and when they come out with the ties then you can euther play it or stick
with the old stuff. Your choice. But me I like the idea of tieing the two
together. It gives a sense of history , a true sense of an epic story. Just
wait until the "Hunter of dragons" shows up and then decides to get Wired
Reflexes 3 nd mabye orthoskin then tries to hunt you down. then you'll be
praying for the passions to teach you to tie threads .
Archie ( no flame intended)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:06:32 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
In a message dated 97-07-06 12:55:35 EDT, vanyel@*******.NET (Justin Pinnow)
writes:
>
> I feel it's a reasonable way to allow a PA to have a little more
> flexibility, without going overboard. Keep in mind that when they "spend"
> their point of Magic Rating, they must also "spend" the other .25 point.
> This way, they don't have access to any powers that exist, only the chosen
> ones. Thus, a beginning PA with 6 points "spent" for PA powers would get
> to "buy" 8 points worth of powers. He could only have 6 points active at
> any given time, however. In order to activate any different powers he
> knows, he would have to meditate for 3 consecutive hours.
>
Okay, now I understand the idea of the extra points better. Solution
Found...thanks
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Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:07:46 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
In a message dated 97-07-06 12:55:35 EDT, vanyel@*******.NET (Justin Pinnow)
writes:
>
> Okay. :) Shielding, Centering, Masking, etc. are all Metamagical
> abilities. When you Initiate, you are gaining access to Metamagic and the
> abilities within the realm of Metamagic. Thus, in my campaign, when you
> initiate the first time you choose 2 Metamagical abilities available to
> your character (as appropriate) and you know them. You are also a Grade 1
> Initiate. However, in order to learn Reflective Shielding, you would need
> to already know Shielding (think of it as a prerequisite). You could NOT
> learn both of these during the same Initiation. (There are other examples
> of prerequisites, I believe, but this one came to mind first.) I also
> require my players to find an instructor to introduce them into their
first
> Initiation. That way, the instructor can tell them that he doesn't feel
> they are ready for the realm of Metamagic yet if they try to Initiate too
> soon. Keeps some control in the hands of the GM.
>
And I understand this better now as well. You are like many that have people
develop their initiate talents over time. Not bad...but not for us (this
group here).
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Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:11:51 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
In a message dated 97-07-06 13:01:28 EDT, Dragathor@***.COM (Archie Burks)
writes:
>
> If you want to play SR, then play it. If you want to play ED, then play
it.
> If and when they come out with the ties then you can euther play it or
> stick
> with the old stuff. Your choice. But me I like the idea of tieing the two
> together. It gives a sense of history , a true sense of an epic story.
> Just
> wait until the "Hunter of dragons" shows up and then decides to get Wired
> Reflexes 3 nd mabye orthoskin then tries to hunt you down. then you'll be
> praying for the passions to teach you to tie threads .
>
>
Oh my, Verji with cyberware...now ain't that a nightmare waiting to happen.
But hey, I've just been reminded...Move-by-Wire, NOT Wired Reflexes...I
mean, it's only the best....and not Orthoskin, how about Dermal Sheathing
with color adaptation...Verji in a variety...Ruby Rod (of 5th Element) eat
your heart out...maybe make it mood sensitive, and lie about the mood
translator....Verji in Pink!!! when pissed...
But don't get me wrong, on the serious side I understand...I actually use the
crossovers, pretty heavily...right now the characters here are after Ubyr on
the Illinois River (seemed toxic enough).
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Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 14:20:54 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts ( cost odf powers )
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 06 Jul 1997 12:52:22 -0400"
<970706125221_-626459411@*******.mail.aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
You wrote:
> How do you find the power point for a Physical Adept?
> When we first played ( years ago ) in our niaveity we used the same points as
> magi do: Tech\resourses Spens an a priority and get 50 or so. If the adept
> had essense lose then it came off of his magic rating and the x amount of
> points. as long as he had at least one fvull magic point left hae had most of
> his original points.
> But then recently ( still years ago ) we decided that was over-board and
> began using whatever the adepts magic rating was. This caused a definate
> drop in thier power level.
> Did anybody out there make this same mistake?
Have some friends who did, using Force Points for Physical Adept powers...
And of course the munchiest member of the group had to make one with Resuorces
A, 50 Force Points... *sigh*
losthalo
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Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:06:03 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: NPC maintenance
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
---Gurth wrote:
>
> I've got a program from someone whose name I can't remember right
now;
> it's intended to keep track of NPCs in combat, and allows you to
save and
> load them. I could mail it to you if you want.
There a utility something like this that should work for characters
and NPC's on Grifter's page. It's called Shadowrun pad.
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/2055/
Only drawback is that he hasn't put a print feature in it yet. :o(
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:33:02 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <bxb24@**.opp.psu.edu>
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Organization: Office of Physical Plant
Subject: Fixers (Long) part 1
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
I wrote this up last night....I'm not totally satisfied with my final
product. Let me know what you think.
Note: This has Text tables in it.....Hope you are using a Fixed Width
Font. (Text rules!)
Note: This document is available at the Shadowrun Central Website,
http://www.opp.psu.edu/~bxb24/sr/srcenter.htm
FIXERS (V 0.9)
==============
Of all the elements in the Shadowrun world, perhaps the most
central, the most dear to the heart of every runner, is the Fixer.
Your Fixer can make or break you. Your runs, your gear, your info,
the largest slice of every pie comes from the hands of your fixer.
This document is a tool for GM's to help generate and
maintain fixer information, to make life easier on the GM, and to act
as a tool to help enrich the Shadowrun world. Depending on the "size"
of your world, using this document should take about 30 minutes, and
later use to update and maintain it should take only a minute every
few runs. This is not meant to complicate matters for the GM, but to
enrich the world.
This document consists of two parts: Creating Fixers and
Using Fixers. To help illustrate the use of this document, a set of
sample fixers from my world will be used to demonstrate.
I. Creating Fixers
------------------
A. Concepts
+++++++++++
Just as with characters, the most important aspect of the
fixer, and the part to be considered is the concept. Here, numbers
and die can play little part, and role-playing is key. If you already
have an established world, simply describe the fixers here. If not,
create some concepts. Even if you already have fixers, you may wish
to create a few more here, as these rules are intended to help you be
able to use multiple fixers easily and in such a manner as to make
your world more complex.
Remember that the average fixer will not engage in personal
combat, so don't worry overly much about keeping their stats balanced.
If you want one character to be a Froce 20 Free Spirit, and the other
to be a paraplegic dwarf, that's okay (at least as far as these rules
are concerned...I'd expect and REAL good story for a Force 20 Spirit
doing ANYTHING.)
Simply write down the concepts behind the fixers...I suggest
using some method...some use computer programs, others keep one text
file. I myself use 3 x 5 notecards, and have a box of them for all
major NPC's, contacts, groups, Johnsons, and unique items.
Example:
I have been playing SR since it's beginnings in 1989. Over
time i've had many fixers, some borrowed, some original, some that
were just boring "shells" that had no real personality. Mostly only
the recent ones are worth keeping. Of these, I have 6, and one more
concept that my players have never encountered, so that makes 7, and
one concept that isn't a total fixer, but will use similar rules for a
total of 8.
Santa--One of my earliest and most enduring fixers, the name
and very basic concept stolen from some contributor to the KAGE SR
mag. (I recently saw Santa refered to in the Shadowland, but whether
it was the same contributor, same Santa, or even who these
contributors were, I couldn't say. Just as long as I am not taking
total credit for someone else's idea.) Santa is very popular among
those that work for him, rewarding good effort (and punishing bad). He
plays up the Santa image...his chauffers are named after the Reindeer,
he himself is a jolly white bearded fat man (or so he appears on the
rare occasions the runners meet him).
Yan Po--The Zen master of the fixer world. Human, Mixed
Asian heritage. Total Poker face, rewards runners who keep their cool
over flighty and/or emotional ones, even if the calm ones don't quite
do as well. (Within reason of course.) Is shamanic (Cat) but hides
this fact from most runners. Is more likely to be involved in
complex, twisted plots than many other fixers.
King Lear--Never seen by runners, always uses a Matrix icon.
This persona always appears differently, the only constant being a
circlet of silver. Likes to quote Shakespeare at appropriate moments,
and usually has a slight sardonic smile on his(?) digital face.
Uncle--Never met, not even in the Matrix. Works with
runners by way of custom comm boxes, about the size of a walkie
talkie. This box transmits voice only, as well as having a few other
goodies inside, including enough C-4 to demolish it if anyone tries to
tamper with it (No need for numbers until a runner tries it...if they
do, I'd make it tough but not impossible).
Calypso--Fixer of the old school...no fancy matrix icons, no
funky attitudes, no posturing...he lays it on the line. Tends to try
and get talent as it is starting to raise a few prime runners rather
than having a host of incompetents. He'll try and overlook a few
mistakes, but if you screw up too much, you just aren't profitable.
Weasel--A real slimy character...he even resembles his
namesake. Unpopular, expensive, and there is some evidence he sold
his grandmother to the organleggers. The only reason he's around is
that he is real GOOD at being slimy...he has enough dirt on enough
people, and enough favors owed him that he is one of the more powerful
fixers.
Cilantro--New kid on the block...only started working as a
larger time Fixer recently...his rapid rise in power and rep have
caused the other fixers to scramble for good relations even as they
worry about his origins. In truth, he is a free City spirit (player)
who is enjoying the intricacy of being a fixer, and his unique talents
have led him to some of the better runners, not to mention a good dose
of street info. Cilantro worries less about money and more about
influence. He'll keep his real identity secret from most runners,
prefering to garner karma from gutter trash that he helps out
anonymously.
Keith and Eman Bubal--(Not real Fixers yet, not taken as
Fixer Contact). Identical twins...VERY identical, down to most
mannerisms and the clothes they wear. Keith, however, is of
moderate intelligence, enjoys beer, sports, and most of all, money. A
sloppy, greedy man using his brother for profit, but he does truly
care about his brother. Eman is autistic, speaks in a very high
pitched voice. He can remember almost every fact that he every heard
or read, but isn't real good about connecting them. His only two
loves are his brother and Choco Dreams chocolate Bars, and Keith
routinely includes in his fee one bar, which Eman will delightedly
savor. Their apartment is a mess, with a dozen telecoms bringing in
newsfeeds which Eman, prompted by the promise of Choco Dreams, will
memorize.
B. Ratings
++++++++++
The concepts only provide the broadest of details, so know we
being to flesh them out. First, every Fixer has a rating that sums up
their overall abilities. You may wish to keep all beginning fixers
balanced, or may create them unbalanced (who said life was fair?) and
only give street descriptions to the players before letting them
choose their fixers (or just assign them one). Personally, I like
balance, so all my fixers will start at Rating 5 (which I recommend
for decent but not godly fixers) except for the Bubal twins, who will
be rating 2.
The rating you provide will be divided among the different
areas a fixer has strength or weakness in. Remember the chart below,
as these number will become very important for the following sections:
Excellent(Rare) 3
Great 2
Good 1
Normal 0
Poor -1
Bad -2
Abyssmal(Rare) -3
C. Relations
++++++++++++
The first area of a fixers domain is the area of the other
fixers...that is, the relations (s)he has with the other fixers. You
can use the chart given above to get a general rating, but that
doesn't add much detail, which is the general point of this document.
I suggest using a relations chart like the one below. If you are
feeling particularly sadistic, you can have realtions vary with
direction...that is Fixer A may have good relations with B, but B
doesn't like A. I prefer an easier method, so I kept the relations
the same both ways (with one exception, noted below)
Relations represent the likelyhood of each fixer being able to
get info, connections, and cooperation from the others. Remember,
fixers are in competition with each other so relations tend to be
tense. Still, like corporations, they have a bottom line, and often
profit or favors will make it worth their while.
Use the chart to detail your characters. Don't worry overly
much about the Ratings yet, just assign a rank to each relation using
the chart above (ignore relations to themselves, thus the XXX'd
boxes).
Example:
I'll start by declaring a mutual hatred between Yan Po and
King Lear. Next, I'll say that just about every one dislikes Weasel,
excpet Calypso, who seems to have some unknown connection with Weasel,
and has very good relations with him. Cilantro, being the courted new
kid on the block, will have good relations (for the moment) with most
every one...except Calypso and Weasel...Weasel will hate him because
of his lower prices....cutting into his profits, and if Weasel hates
him, it will at least somewhat harm relations with Calypso. Santa
should have fairly good relations, except for Weasel and Calypso
(Calypso and Santa seem to vie for the same type of runners) which
will naturally affect relations with Weasel. Uncle has had a pretty
free ride here, so let's put a small bump between he and
Santa....maybe a few screwed up meets in the past, just enough to bump
relations down a notch.
I use any remaining open spots to try and balance out the
characters a bit...I don't want anyone have Relations too high or low.
Weasel I'll want low since he has more info than the others, and
that's about it. Don't worry overly much about getting it exactly
right...you'll usually comeback to the chart before you are finished
to adjust some ratings. Details on why this chart matters can be
found in the Using Fixers section.
I don't include the Bubal twins, since I rule they have too
little influence for relations with them to be important. I'll say
that if the Bubals try and work with these guys, they work as if they
had Abyssmal relations (-3) and if any the fixers work with the
Bubals, they'll work as if they had Great (2) relations (Keith will
jump at any opportunity to move up in the world).
A=Yan Po B=Santa C=King Lear
D=Uncle EÊlypso F=Weasel G=Cilantro
|A |B |C |D |E |F |G |
|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|
A |XXXXXXX|good 1 |bad -2 |normal0|good 1 |bad -2 |good 1 |
B |good 1 |XXXXXXX|good 1 |poor -1|bad -2 |poor -1|good 1 |
C |bad -2 |good 1 |XXXXXXX|good 1 |good 1 |bad -2 |good 1 |
D |normal0|poor -1|good 1 |XXXXXXX|normal0|good 1 |good 1 |
E |good 1 |bad -2 |good 1 |normal0|XXXXXXX|great 2|poor -1|
F |bad-2 |poor -1|bad -2 |good 1 |great 2|XXXXXXX|bad -2 |
G |good 1 |good 1 |good 1 |good 1 |poor -1|bad -2 |XXXXXXX|
|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|
Totals: | -1 | -1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | -4 | 1 |
We'll treat the Bubal twins as -3.
D. Resources
++++++++++++
The real meat of a fixer, this measures the info the fixer can
obtain, the contacts (s)he has, the gear (s)he can get, and the
Johnsons (s)he has a good reputation with. First, assign a rating
(don't use the rating chart like the others yet) that represents the
general skill level....use it as a you would a normal SR skill, as
this does indeed represent the number of die you will roll for them
(see Using Fixers). Remember, however, that this represents a
Professional Skill, so a rating 4 is more than competant to be well
connected throughout the city.
If any areas deviate from this level, put the modifier on
them. Try to keep all the modifiers balanced out. What areas you
ask? Generalize. Below is a suggested "tree" of items, but don't be
afraid to overlap or create new areas. Again, as with Relations,
don't be afraid to set it and change it slightly later to adjust to
get your desired rating.
Info
-Corp and Media
-Gang and Underworld
-Governments and NAN
Gear
-Magical
-Military
-Cyber
-Medical
-Matrix
Contacts
-Matrix related
-Muscle related (sammies, etc)
-Magic related
-Medical related
-Group (Mafia, Yakuza, etc)
Johnsons and Runs
-Particular corp
-Particular style of run
Example:
First the ratings. Pretty general here:
Yan Po: 3
Santa: 3
King Lear: 4
Uncle: 5
Calypso: 4
Weasel: 8 (this is high, but I'll compensate)
Cilantro: 4
Bubal Twins: 1
Now to flesh them out.
Yan Po--By nature, he doesn't get overly interested in any one
area, prefering to remain broad. However, his competition with King
Lear has led him to reject the muscle types King Lear prefers slightly
and to nurture the Magical side. His tendancy to reward subtlety has
affected both the runners he knows and the rep with Johnsons for his
work.
Yan Po: 3
Johnsons and Runs: Good (1) Magically related runs
Contacts: Good(1) Magically related
Johnsons and Runs: Poor (-1) Muscle related runs
Johnsons and Runs: Good (1) Subtle Runs
Contacts: Bad(-2) Heavy Cyber-combat types.
Santa--Santa is even more across the board than Yan Po. He
has a slight strength in Street Info, and a slight weakness in the
Magical department.
Santa: 3
Johnsons and Runs: Poor (-1) Magic Related Runs
Contacts: Poor(-1) Magically related
Gear: Poor(-1) Magical gear
Info: Good(1) Gangs
Info: Good(1) Mafia
Info: Good(1) Lone Star
King Lear--Prefering a clean strike to complicating matters
more than necessary, King Lear has focused on quality strike teams and
related runs. He has not, however, totally neglected the other areas.
King Lear: 4
Johnsons and Runs: Great(2) Muscle and Combat Runs
Johnsons and Runs: Poor(-1) Magically related Runs.
Contacts: Good (1) Muscle
Contacts: Poor (-1) Magically related
Gear: Poor(-1) Magical
Uncle--Uncle likes to have a finger in every pot. He also has
some Yakuza connections. He does have a weakness in the Matrix
department.
Uncle: 5
Info: Good(1) Yakuza
Info: Good(1) Mafia
Contacts: Good(1) Yakuza
Gear: Poor(-1) Matrix related
Contacts: Bad(-2) Matrix related
Johnsons and Runs: Poor(-1) Matrix work
Gear: Good(1) Military
Calypso--Calypso works the weaknesses of the other fixers.
Strong on the Matrix and Medical, weak on reputation with the Johnsons
and on Street info. He works there because the others have left him a
void...he'll switch if anyone makes this too hard. Flexibility is his
motto.
Calypso: 4
Johnsons and Runs: Poor(-1) Overall
Gear: Good(1) Overall
Contacts: Good(1) Matrix Related
Contacts: Good(1) Medical
Info: Poor(-1) Gangs
Info: Poor(-1) Mafia
Weasel--Weasel has dirt on everybody in every area. He
does, however, have slightly less dirt in the area of Magic.
Johnsons, while admiring his resources, are leery of details of the
run being sold to the highest bidder.
Weasel: 8
Johnsons and Runs: Bad (-2) Overall
Info: Good(1) Overall
Gear: Good(1) Overall
Contacts: Poor(-1) Magical
Contacts: Poor(-1) Medical
Cilantro--Cilantro specializes in people and info, finding
material resources harder to come by. Despite his relative newness in
the field of the big players, he has established a good reputation,
particularly with Ares, with whom he has worked with several Johnsons.
Cilantro: 4
Johnsons and Runs: Good(1) Overall
Info: Great(2) Gangs
Info: Good(1) Ares
Gear: Poor(-1) Overall
Contacts: Bad(-2) Matrix
Contacts: Good(1) Magical
Contacts: Poor(-1) Military
Info: Poor(-1) Yakuza
Bubal Twins--They know few people, have little access to
gear, and have next to no Rep with Johnsons. What they do have is a
great source of info.
Bubal Twins: 1
Johnsons and Runs: Poor(-1) Overall
Info: Great(2) Overall
Gear: Poor(-1) Overall
Contacts: Good(1) Matrix
Contacts: Poor(-1) Muscle
Contacts: Good(1) Medical
Contacts: Poor(-1) Magical
E. Price
++++++++
Every man has his price, and the fixer's price may be steep.
Here you simply use the rating chart to describe the fixer's prices.
You can specialize them as you did with Resources, but you shouldn't
be as extensive...if they manage to get something, the price shouldn't
change much beyond their personal markup, and if they don't, then the
money won't matter anyway.
This rating includes both monetary prices, as well as
"favors" asked for.
Example:
Yan Po--Prefering to have the control his position offers, Yan
Po is one of the better fixers when it comes to the price tag.
Yan Po: Great(2)
Santa--The jolly old elf(well, human) is also fairly good with
the prices. He also gets hit by his weakness with Magical goods.
Santa: Good(1)
Gear: Poor(-1) Magical
Gear: Good(1) Combat
King Lear--Normal pricing. Has an advantage in Miltary
goods, and a disadvantage in Magical gear.
King Lear: Normal(0)
Gear: Poor(-1) Magical
Gear: Good(1) Military
Uncle--Also normal in the price range, but not the man to go
to for a deck.
Uncle: Normal(0)
Gear:Bad(-2) Matrix
Gear:Good(1) Military
Gear:Good(1) Vehicles
Calypso--The runners friend when it comes to patching
teammates together, but nothing wonderful. He also takes a hefty
percentage from any take on a run he sets up for you.
Calypso: Normal(0)
Services: Good(1) Medical
Gear: Good(1) Cyber
Gear: Poor(-1) Combat
Runs: Poor(-1) Percentage
Weasel--Weasel may have Resources, but he sure isn't giving
them away. He likes to charge top nuyen, and may ask for favors
besides.
Weasel: Bad(-2)
Services: Poor(-1) Magical
Gear: Poor(-1) Magical
Services: Good(1) Info
Gear: Poor(-1) Cyber
Cilantro--Cilantro cares little for the almighty nuyen, and
will sell his goods and services at little profit. It is not unknown
for him to ask for favors in exchange for dropping the price as well.
Cilantro: Great(2)
Services: Poor(-1) Matrix
Gear: Poor(-1) Matrix
Services: Good(1) Info
Services: Good(1) Magical
Bubal Twins--The twins specialize in knowledge only, and
their difficulty in obtaining other things affects their prices in
those areas. Despite his greed, Keith is a little clueless to normal
street prices, not to mention being aware that he is a minor player,
and his poor upbringing makes small sums large to his eyes.
Bubal Twins: Great(2)
Gear: Poor(-1) Overall
Services: Good(1) Info
F. Loyalty
++++++++++
Fixers are businessmen. As such, no runner is too precious to
sacrifice. Some fixers, for reasons of personal ethics or simply as a
business decision, take better care of individual runners than others.
This rating is a general guideline.
Example:
Yan Po--Yan Po treats his runners with what he considers
professional respect and honor.
Yan Po: Good(1)
Santa--Santa likes his pet runners, and figures if he takes
care of them, they'll take care of him.
Santa: Great(2)
King Lear--King Lear figures a business is a business. You
don't sell everyone out, because then no one will come back, but you
don't play the fool either.
King Lear: Good(1)
Uncle--Uncle keeps himself remote from the runners, and as
such, has little to stop him from harming them at his profit.
Uncle: Poor(-1)
Calypso--Calypso sees no reason to get sentimental about a
simply professional arrangement.
Calypso: Normal(0)
Weasel--As you might guess, Weasel will sell anyone out.
The only thing stopping him is that the opposition might not be
willing to pay his outrageous prices.
Weasel: Bad(-2)
Cilantro--Cilantro doesn't quite understand yet that the
runners' lives mean anything. They are just pawns on the chessboard
in this wonderful game he has discovered.
Cilantro: Bad(-2)
Bubal Twins--The Twins cling desperately to every customer
they can get.
Bubal Twins: Great(2)
G: Totals
+++++++++
No you total up all the categories for each fixer and make
sure they match the rating for that fixer. If they don't either
accept the total as the new Rating, or adjust some of the categories.
(Resources, Price, and Loyalty are particularly easy to adjust.
Relations tends to be complicated.)
Example:
Relations Resources Price Loyalty Total
Yan Po -1 3 2 1 5
Santa -1 3 1 2 5
King Lear 0 4 0 1 5
Uncle 1 5 0 -1 5
Calypso 1 4 0 0 5
Weasel -4 8 -2 -2 0
Cilantro 1 4 2 -2 5
Bubal Twins -3 1 2 2 2
Here we see that Weasel is not the rating 5 fixer I wanted. I can
either accept that he is a Rating 0, or I can adjust some stats. I
certainly would like to get him closer to a 5. Let's see what I can
do:
Improve Price: Pretty much against the character concept.
Improve Loyalty: This too. Improve Resources: This is
possible, but he already has an
8, which is very high.
Improve Relations: This is possible, but complicated.
Anything I change would affect the Relations of everyone else unless I
said it only worked one way.
I decide to split it. I'll bump his resources up to 10, and
I'll say that King Lear, will cooperate with at Normal instead of Bad
(more to annoy Yan Po than anything else). I'll also say that
Cilantro hasn't totally figured out that they are in such competition,
and only reacts at Poor(-1) to him instead of Bad(-2). This adds the
needed 5 points to the character.
II. Using the Fixers
--------------------
Now that you have created the Fixers, what do you do with
them? Well, first, what do your players use their fixers for? The
following is a list of things that my players have used their fixers
for. These are all considered Services. Also included are things
that fixer does not do himself, but acts as a middleman for. These are
called MiddleMan tasks. They may overlap, depending on the task and
the fixer. The distinction is almost never important.
Services and MiddleMan tasks
-Arrange Runs
-Info
-Contacts
-Work as a Fence
-Shadowbanking
-False ID's
-Acquire Gear
-Special Arrangements
Special Rule: Slots
+++++++++++++++++++
In many places I refer to "slots". Often a fixer rolls !d6 to
determine some somewhat random value (this number may be modified by
his stats). In any such case, a slot means one number. From 3 to 4
or from 6 to 5 is movement of one slot.
Special Rule: Favors
++++++++++++++++++++
A fixer may elect to accept a future favor, or a marker,
from a runner in exchange for all or part of a payment. A Fixer
will not accept a favor from a character who already owes him a
Level 9 favor or higher. Use the Fixer concepts to decide whether he
suggests favors instead. If the character already owes a Favor (but
it is less than level 9) and wishes another, roll 1d6 and add the
Fixers Price level. If the number is equal to or greater than the
level of the favor owed, the fixer will accept it.
Anywhere in these rules you roll 1d6(modified) to determine a
price, if the Fixer will allow a favor, the Character can either move
the roll 3 slots on this chart per level of Favor, or assume the best
case for a level 3 Favor. The Chart can be moved one slot in exchange
for a immediate Minor Favor. Minor Favors may be like: "I'll waive my
(rather small) percentage on this, but only if you tell me what the
item the Johnson has you get looks like, exactly." Such a Favor must
be quickly resolved, and at little effort to the player.
All Favors to a fixer by one individual are cumulative, and
can be (at the fixers discretion) paid off in parts. Favors are only
considered paid at the option of the Fixer...he decides when to
collect and how. If the player does not wish to accept the Fixers
demand (the Fixer can make it an offer, not a demand) roll 1d6 and add
half the current Level of Favor the character owes. If the number
rolled is higher than the character's Charisma/Etiquette Skill
(whichever is higher) PLUS the Fixer's Loyalty Rating, he will give
the play an ultimatum: Do it or else. "Else" may include a visit by
"collection agents", blackballing him on the street, or other such
nasty consequences.
Rule: Negotiation
*****************
If a character wishes to use the Negotiation skill with the
Fixer, make a standard Negotiation skill test (use whatever stats for
the Fixer are appropriate, or Will 5, Char 4, Negotiation 4 for
default). Have Net Character successes add to the roll on any pricing
chart. Note that this can go negatively.
Rule: Level of Contact
**********************
If the character has the fixer as a stronger contact (Buddy)
he can move any roll one slot to his advantage with no penalty.
Arrange Runs
++++++++++++
Most runners don't know their Johnson personally...at least
not at first. A fixer, using an established reputation, is contacted
by a Johnson with a run...the fixer, knowing only (or at least so the
Johnson thinks) vague details about the run arranges for some runners
to take the job. Sometimes the fixer hires the runners himself,
accepting Johnson's payment, sometimes the fixer merely gets the two
groups together.
Finder's Fees
*************
If the Fixer gets the two groups together, he may charge a
basic "finder's fee", payable by either group (This often an indicator
of the Johnson's money and/or desperation and/or knowledge of the
runners' reps. A Johnson who pays the finder's fee is at least one of
the following:
1) In possession of a larger than average account for Shadow
Ops 2) Desperate to get runners 3) Desperate to get _these_
runners, who he has heard such *cough* good things about. 4) A
fool.
Most often, for starting groups, the runners will get hit with
this fee. Such fees tend to be around 100-5,000 Y a person,
depending on the experience of the runners and the potential the fixer
figures the run is worth.
Finder's fees are most often used when:
1) The Johnson wants these runners specifically
2) The Johnson wants as few people to know about the run as
possible (this way the fixer is in the dark) 3) The fixer
wants to distance himself from possible fallout from the run
4) The fixer does not normally work with these runners
Random die rolls really can't decide how finder's fees work.
Decide whether there will be one, and if the Johnson is paying. If
the runners are stuck with the fee, you can use the follow rules to
decide how much it is.
Roll 1D6 and add Fixer's Price Rating.
-2: 50%
-1: 30%
0: 20% All Percentages are of the
1: 15% Basic payment offered by the Johnson.
2: 15% The randomness stems from the Fixer's
3: 10% lack of knowledge of the actual run.
4: 10%
5: 5%
6: 5%
7: 1%
8: 1%
9: Fee waived
The Finder's Fee is charged whether the runners accept the run
or not.
Percentages
***********
Another way a fixer can charge for arranging a run is to
simply charge a percentage of the take. Normally is such a case the
money gets paid to the Fixer, who then takes off his take and sends it
on to the team. Kind(?) Johnsons who were happy with the run have
been known to pad the credstick so that the runners end up with what
would have been full payment, but this is fairly rare.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:34:19 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <bxb24@**.opp.psu.edu>
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Organization: Office of Physical Plant
Subject: Fixers (long) Part 2.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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The difference between the Percentage and the Finder's Fee is
that the Fixer knows exactly what was paid, gets a percentage of any
bonuses as well, only gets paid if you take the job, and only gets
paid AFTER the job is done.
Roll 1d6 and add the Fixers Price Rating
-2: 50%
-1: 30%
0: 15%
1: 15%
2: 15%
3: 10%
4: 10%
5: 5%
6: 5%
7: 1%
8: 1%
9: Fee Waived.
Direct Hire
***********
This is when the fixer is hired, and he hires the runners. The
Fixers advantage here is complete knowledge of the run, and the amount
paid. If done with enough time, he may even be able to hire a second
team if you all fail. The disadvantage is that the Johnson holds him
directly responsible.
Roll 1d6, add Price Rating AND Loyalty Rating.
-5: Will rip runners off
-4: 1%
-3: 5%
-2: 10% Assume percentage includes bonuses unless -1:
20% otherwise stated.
0: 30%
1: 35%
2: 40%
3: 45%
4: 50%
5: 55%
6: 60%
7: 65%
8: 70%
9: 80%
10: 90%
11: Full Payment, minus bonuses
12: Full Payment, plus bonuses
Finding Runs
************
Sometimes the fixer contacts the runners with a job, other
times the runners ask the fixer for work. There are two ways a runner
can ask for work: Type specific or General.
Type Specific
*************
Most often, a runner or team of runners are particularly
skilled at a particular type of assignment. Extraction, Muscle,
Magical opposition, etc. The runners can request a type of job from
the fixer. To find out whether the fixer has any jobs like that
waiting, or can find one, roll the Fixers resource rating (modified
for the type) against a target of 6. Every two successes (round down,
so you need two successes to get the first possible run) indicate a
possible run. Some fixers (Normal or less) will charge a minor fee
((6-(1d6+Price Rating)*100 Y) for this search, in addition to getting
the finder's fee or percentage. (If the fixer is using direct hire,
then he already knows about the job and no search is needed. He
doesn't have to tell the runners that (Loyalty < Normal), and can
charge away.)
General Search
**************
If the fixer fails to have jobs of the type the runners are
searching for, they can request (usually out of desperation) ANY jobs
the fixer has available. The number of jobs the fixer has is equal to
the number of successes in a: Resource Rating [4] test. (Use base
Johnsons and Runs Rating, and avoid saying he has runs in areas he is
poor/bad in). In this case, the fixer is not searching for jobs, but
looking at what he knows is available, and almost never charges for
the search, content to take whatever his other fee is.
Getting Info
++++++++++++
A fixer is the ultimate source of information. Huge
databases of information lay at his fingertips, and contacts with more
info are just a phone call away. But does a fixer know what you need?
Can he get it?
Whenever information is asked for, first determine whether the
fixer can get the info. Roll Info Resources [target based on
difficulty of getting knowledge]. Compare successes to the chart
below. Don't allow the fixer to get impossible/ridiculous knowledge.
0: I'll get back to you. (he doesn't)
1: It'll take some time. (24 hours)
2: Null persperation,. (12 hours)
3: Just a minute... (1 hour)
4: Got that right here (1 minute)
5+: I thought you'd ask that. (instantly)
Another thing to consider is price. Fixer's don't get
wealthy and powerful by giving everything away. Die rolls can't do
all of this, you have to consider:
-The difficulty of getting the info
-Whether giving this info to the runners will make money for
the fixer. (He is more likely to give them the info free if
they need to know it to succeed in the run where he is netting
50%)
As a base price, try 4-(1d6+Price Rating-target# of info)*100
Nuyen.
Contacts
++++++++
Whenever the skills of a team aren't sufficient, they need to
call in backup. If their direct contacts aren't enough, it's time to
hire some others. This is where the fixer steps in. With his web of
contacts and runners, be it where the runners act as a Johnson, or
just getting the runners to meet with a contact.
The first thing to do is to determine whether the fixer has
the approprite contact. Simply roll Resources with a target number
based on the intricacy of the contact. Here are some samples:
4: generic talent (decker, rigger, etc)
6: Expert: (Parazoologist studying dracoforms)
8: Rare Expert: (Parazoologist studying dracoform
toenails.)
10+: Specific Individual.
Success indicates a contact. More successes can raise the
skill of the individual (in non-idividual cases) or decrease the time
needed for a meet. Assume a base time of 72 hours, and
Archtype/Contact skill levels for generic types, 6 for experts, 8 for
rare experts, and use individuals as they merit. Additional successes
can "raise" the contacts' skills one point for every two successes.
Successes are split between time and skill, they don't count towards
both.
Simply having a contact doesn't guarantee a meet. The
contact represents a person, and the character must provide a
reason for the contact to be interested in meeting, just as the
characters would demand a reason.
Normally in this the runners will be acting as a Johnson to
the contact, and the fixer would charge a Finder's fee or percentage
as he would for the runners. Remember, sometimes the Johnson pays the
Finder's fee, so...
Working as a Fence
++++++++++++++++++
The basic SR rules provide details for finding and meeting a
Fence. Sometimes, runners would just rather pass the hot material on
to the Fixer to deal with. While not as profitable, it helps the
runners get rid of something before it burns them. The fixer, in
turn, either takes it to a fence or does the work of a fence himself.
Use the standard rules for deciding the money the fixer has
available, and what material he has an interest in. For payment
though, subtract (20%-(Price Rating *10%))from the final payment.
(This may result in better prices, but rarely. You may consider Price
Rating in this case to be modifyable as slots for Favors and Buddies.)
Shadowbanking
+++++++++++++
Bankers tend to be anal. Particularly when it comes to
money. One thing they tend to really dislike is having accounts for
the SINless. Runners can get around this a few ways. They can have a
false ID/credstick, and thus have a legit account at the corner bank.
They can bribe a bank manager. They can use only scrip. Or, they can
use a shadowbank. If you don't have a false ID (or just don't want to
have to answer to the IRS), a shadowbank is the logical way to go.
Fixers are the most common shadowbankers (or middlemen for
shadowbankers.)
A shadowbank allows the characters to have functional
credsticks (certified, for financial purposes only), and protects your
funds in a manner similar to a normal bank. It also allows Johnsons
and others to transfer money to you. Without going into much detail,
through bribes, blackmail, and decking, many banks provide certain
accounts that don't seem to follow normal rules. Fixers/Shadowbankers
use these accounts to keep runners funds.
Doesn't this mean your fixer has a strangle hold on your
money? Sure it does. But you can transfer funds out of that
account to safe, anonymous accounts on Zurich-Orbital, for example, if
you are willing to pay the account creation fee. Plus, few fixers are
going to play with your funds lest word get around. Still, to be on
the safe side, most runners keep accounts under several fixers, not to
mention a few Swiss and Z-O accounts, and a few legit accounts under
false ID's.
Fixers normally take off ((1d6+Price Rating)/3) * 10% of any
money they put in a Shadowaccount.
False ID's
++++++++++
Few people have the resources and the skills to create false
ID's. To work with these few, runners go through Fixers.
Rules for False ID's/credsticks appear in the Neo-Anarchists
Guide to Real Life.
A fixer usually has a few "blanks", that is, low-level
credsticks that he can edit to fit just about anyone...but they will
only pass cursury inspection. For anything above a level three, or
above half(round down) a Fixers Resource rating (whichever is lower)
the fixer must contact his provider. A fixer cannot get a credstick
rated higher than twice his Resource rating...he simply doesn't have
the connections. He can try and go through another fixer, but that
involves it's own complications, among them is spreading the word that
you are getting this false ID, not to mention raising the price. A
fixer typically demands ((1d6+Price Rating)/3) * 10% of the cost of
the credstick for getting it to you. (negatives mean no charge)
Acquire Gear
++++++++++++
Runners use stuff up. Ammo, Magical Supplies, medical
supplies, vehicles, etc. Rather than hunt about to get material
themselves, runners usually try and get it through their fixer. The
advantage of this is the Fixer rolls his resource rating against the
availability of the item (always use the Street Availability and
Index) instead of the runners (often) miserable social skills. The
disadvantage is, you guessed it, the price.
Use standard rules to find material, only use the Fixer's
Resources rating instead of the runners Etiquette skill, and increase
the price by ((1d6+Price Rating)/2)*10%. (negatives do indeed drop the
cost below Street cost)
Special Arrangements
++++++++++++++++++++
You need your highly illegal heat-seeking elephant gun
shipped into the Tir where you can get it. You need the blueprints to
the VP's private mansion. You need a car to pick you up at such and
such a place. Everything your fixer does for you that is beyond the
keyboard in front of him is likely the result of other runners he has
hired to do that job. In such a case, he is doing a Direct hire of
those runners. Think about how much your players would want for that
job. Add in the Fixers amount. The total is how much it will cost
the runners.
Role Playing the Fixer
++++++++++++++++++++++
First, every fixer has motivation, just like every runner.
Sometimes they were runners, and can't calm down enough to retire.
Maybe they love feeling all-powerful. Maybe they're greedy. Decide
what motivates your fixer.
Make him a round person...he isn't going to reveal
everything to the players. He has hidden agendas.
The fixer shouldn't be the ultimate answer for the runners. He
can sell them out, send them bad info, or decide he's tired of waiting
for the runners to pay back that favor. Sometimes the runners he
hires fail, and that may affect the players' mission.
III. Credits
------------
My thanks to the ShadowRN Mailing list, from whom I have
profited a great deal as a player and as a GM.
Please email me with any comments concerning this document. I
certainly consider it a work in progress, and any suggestions are
welcome.
-=SwiftOne=-
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 15:19:43 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
MIME-Version: 1.0
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---John E Pederson wrote:
>
> Figured I'd go ahead and give a few more comments while I was at
this:)
>
> My personal pet peeves with SR:
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this for S/R III, but I'd
personally like some retouching on the barrier rules.
Maybe some further clarification or reworking on firing-through v.s.
breaking through. I've found the vanilla rules as they are leave too
many "what if's" and "that doesn't seem right." For example, would a
sniper rifle round that's made for havey penetration really punch a 2
meter hole (close to six feet for the metrically challenged) through a
barrier? Do explosive rounds have more less or the same effect when
trying to blow through a door as regular rounds? How about APDS?
When playing with armor degradation rules, do barriers also degraged
when someone is shooting through them, or do the only degrade if the
character is specifically trying to break-through.
A character is comparing his strength against the barrier rating of a
door to break it down, can he roll a STR test or do anything else to
improve his odds (i.e. kicking v.s. shoulder. How about a sledgehammer
or slamming the butt of his rifle into it?)
I was planning to get some clarification on this at GenCon's Shadowrun
Q&A, but I'd also like to seem it cleaned up in B&W.
===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:26:22 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Kabael <kabael@****.NET>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>1st. Null magic time remembered by story/writing???/racial memory
>2nd. First Magic remembered by VERY long lived beings (or their ancestors)
>3rd. Null Magic. CLose to the end of this time, a book was found from the
>end of the 2nd world warning of the horrors. The book contained valuable info
>of protecting onesself from the horrors. (And gave the people who found it a
>LOT of power. These people were the Therans).
>4th. Earthdawn. The therans sold their secrets in exchange for
>slaves/obedience and the submission of Barsaive to their rule. Etc etc etc.
>We don't know how it all ends apart from the fact that the magic eventually
>fades into....
>5th. Our world. No magic. Technology slowely starts to form, and then
>increases exponentially until cyberware and the matrix are formed. Which
>leads us to....
>6th. Shadowrun....
>
>I think that just about sums it up... Although the Therans MIGHT have found
>the book at close to the beginning of the 4th world....
>
works well, ever since I got Earthdawn, I wondered just what the sequence of
events was, and it ended up close to that. One question though...how can we
be sure that what we would call the 1st age was the first, maybe it was
merely the first recorded/remebered age, some might have become before.
Also, is each age the same for every planet in the universe or at least in
our solar system, does each rise and fall together, or is it only a
planetary phenomenon.
>| !) is SR magic a limited form of adept magic or is a new form alltogether,
>|maybe Psionics?
>
>Nope. It's very limited adept magic. Think about it.
>A quickening viewed from astral resembles a thread. We just haven't figured
>out how to weave them into REALLY powerful spells.... Yet.....
>
really! now that is interesting, but what does SR magic have drain, while ED
doesnt. Is that another step. Maybe Initiates become Adepts (ED style)
eventually, would other characters develop something akin to initiation,
imagine an Discipline for Decking, or a Street Samurai Adept (again, ED type : )
k a b a e l
meo nike a.d.i.d.a.s. reebok
My world is unaffected, there is an exit here
I say it is an it's true, there is a dream inside a
dream, I'm wide awake the more I sleep
-Marilyn Manson, Reflecting God
kabael@****.net
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:26:30 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Kabael <kabael@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Apology ( was:Re: SR/ED ties )
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 12:42 PM 7/6/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Sorry to all.
>
>I didn't realize that my post would be considered by some as a spoiler. I
>was just trying to see if anyone out there had a simular opion on the topic.
> In the futur I will try to contain my post to general knowledge or the rules
>themselves.
>
i didnt consider it a spoiler, but then I was already thinking along the
same line. : )
And dont stop posting such Dark material, just put a Spoiler Warning at the
top or something. I would love to keep discussing the Earthdawn/Shadowrun
connections.
>Also, when I siad the the worlds were defined by the rise and fall of magic,
>I did mean that odd were without and even with magic. I just didn't say it
>that way.
>
>Archie
>
>
k a b a e l
meo nike a.d.i.d.a.s. reebok
My world is unaffected, there is an exit here
I say it is an it's true, there is a dream inside a
dream, I'm wide awake the more I sleep
-Marilyn Manson, Reflecting God
kabael@****.net
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:08:01 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Dark Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Organization: Excaliburs Quest
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
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Bruce H. Nagel wrote:
>
> You wrote:
> > In article <01IKTPSM0QCM9I4AZC@******.acs.muohio.edu>, "Bruce H.
Nagel"
> > <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> rambled on endlessly about Runner's
> > Attitudes
> *ahem* Not as endlessly as some feel the need to.
Maybe not. :)
> And let's not talk about what shadowrunning is 'intended' to be, eh?
Why not? This is a list devoted to Shadowrun, it wouldn't be the first
time the subject has come up, and won't be the last, and every time it
does it'll eventually start a flame, so what the heck :)
> > As has been said by people far better educated and more intelligent than
> > I - "nothing is impossible to a person who is determined" - Just
bloody
> > difficult. :)
> Exactly. You seemed to be writing this post to show how every thing I
> mentioned wasn't enough by itself to do the job, or to point out the downsides.
Neither and both. The ideas you had were perfectly reasonable, except
that after reading it, I felt it might be worthwhile commenting on it in
case some of those new to the game didn't consider the consequences, and
thought that "Hey, that'd be a cool idea."
> I'm already well aware of the downsides, and don't need you to point out to me,
> for instance, that magic can't do the job by itself, or that 'terrorist'-style
> methods have big drawbacks. Doesn't mean I wouldn't do some major property
> damage to help cover an escape, though...
>
> I knew I was going to regret posting to this thread again, but this part seemed
> fairly innocent. Guess some things are just born evil.
Well, Bruce. I'm sorry you've taken it as a personal attack on yourself,
it wasn't intended that way, and I don't recall anywhere in the post,
where I mentioned you specifically, I merely played devil's advocate to
your suggestions, but if you want to take it personally, hey, that's
your privilege.
--
Dark Avenger
Giving up on reality becauae I don't like illusions.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:39:16 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PRONE <downsa@******.EDU>
Subject: sr/ed ties
-4) just when will all the elves in Tir start having thorns pop out of thier
-skin ( didn't one of the SR books have illistration of a blood elf?)
actually, i _think_ only the elves of tir na nog, which is either the physical
location of the bloodwood or the metaphysical location, will sprout the thorns
when the mana gets high enough. i believe that tir tairngire is the
<meta>physical location of city of spires, and the elves that lived there (such
as harly) did not and will not sprout thorns.
to add a little genetics to the magic, i think only elves whose ancestors came
from the bloodwood will have the genes to sprout the thorns. therefore,
perhaps not just tir na nog elves will grow thorns, but elven mr. o'connor,
whose family has lived in boston for generations will also grow thorns. some
evidence to back this idea that bloodelf thorns are genetic, jenna from tir
tairngire, daughter of ol' queen alachia (of bloodwood fame) had a painting in
her house of her with thorns. apart from that small bit o' evidence, this is
just a theory.
Aaron
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:49:25 +1000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties
In-Reply-To: <009B6DC4.5F10B620.26@******.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> actually, i _think_ only the elves of tir na nog, which is either the physical
> location of the bloodwood or the metaphysical location, will sprout the thorns
> when the mana gets high enough. i believe that tir tairngire is the
> <meta>physical location of city of spires, and the elves that lived there (such
> as harly) did not and will not sprout thorns.
The official word from FASA's Mike Mulvilhill is that the thorn growth
was due to a ritual performed at the birth of the elf, and is in no way
genetic. Thus, unless someone starts doing the rituals again, no elves
in Shadowrun will start looking like bald rosebushes.
Lady Jestyr
-----------------------------------------------
All stressed out and no-one to choke...
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 19:05:47 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 06 Jul 1997 23:08:01 +0100"
<33C01741.8DF@*******.demon.co.uk>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
You wrote:
> > And let's not talk about what shadowrunning is 'intended' to be, eh?
> Why not? This is a list devoted to Shadowrun, it wouldn't be the first
> time the subject has come up, and won't be the last, and every time it
> does it'll eventually start a flame, so what the heck :)
Umm, you answered your own question. Since it comes down to opinion, why
bother, eh? Gratuitously wasting time should be more fun than that. ;)
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:05:08 +0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <pTMYpQABVZvzEw4D@********.demon.co.uk>
On 5 Jul 97 at 1:28, Paul J. Adam wrote:
> SR2 fixed the balance in my opinion. Magiciains in SR2 are potent, but
> the spells hurt to cast at high Force, low-force spells aren't too
> effective, and generally the system works.
I agree.
> I'd personally suggest limiting magical initiative increases rather
> than increasing Drain. They want to be fast, they get Wired Reflexes
> and the corresponding Essence lost, or risk spell locks and
> quickenings (and have those, or long-term Increase Reaction spells,
> have a painful cost). Otherwise, they are slower than the samurai,
> but much more powerful and especially much more flexible (the
> firepower of a samurai, the stealth of a physad, the reconnaisance
> capability of a rigger...)
I would advocate this as well. The concept of "speed magic" has
always troubled me, except with PhysAds.
--
==DREKHEAD=======================================================
drekhead@***.net --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html ---
=================================================================
=================================================================
The name is Baud......, James Baud.
=================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:05:08 +0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: NPC maintenance
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970704203625.00697f2c@****.lis.ab.ca>
On 4 Jul 97 at 20:36, Adam J wrote:
> I'm currently working on a NPC database program, although its still
> in its very rough stages. Actually I'm working on a multifaceted
> Shadowrun program called Pocket Secretary. (Original name, not.. but
> I like it.) My tendancy to do WAY too many things at once has left
> it in its infancy still, but the features I'm planning on it having:
Might as well throw your monetary converter in there, too.
--
==DREKHEAD=======================================================
drekhead@***.net --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html ---
=================================================================
=================================================================
An error? Impossible! My modem is error correcting.
=================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:11:25 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Rambling???
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
----
From: Ereskanti@***.com
To: Avenger@*******.demon.co.uk
Date: 06 July 1997 19:04
Subject: Rambling???
>J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM> rambled on endlessly about Runner's
>Attitudes
>
>Hey Now...(thwap)....
>-K
<grin>
Ah, someone who understands my addiction to old smelly carp :)
--
Dark Avenger
Living life on the edge - the edge of a bottle that is.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:38:18 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
----
From: Bruce H. Nagel <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Date: 07 July 1997 01:08
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
>You wrote:
>> > And let's not talk about what shadowrunning is 'intended' to be, eh?
>> Why not? This is a list devoted to Shadowrun, it wouldn't be the first
>> time the subject has come up, and won't be the last, and every time it
>> does it'll eventually start a flame, so what the heck :)
>Umm, you answered your own question.
I know, it was quite deliberate. don't worry, you'll get used to me
arguing with myself and answering my own questions, it's a problem I have
:)
> Since it comes down to opinion, why
>bother, eh? Gratuitously wasting time should be more fun than that. ;)
Ah, someone else who fails to rise to the bait :) Agreed, wasting time
should definately be more fun than starting flames. Oh well, guess I'll
have to go find Nightlife and start quoting Jurassic Park at him again
<grin>
>losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:27:09 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts ( cost odf powers )
On Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:52:22 -0400 Archie Burks <Dragathor@***.COM>
writes:
<<How do you find the power point for a Physical Adept?
When we first played ( years ago ) in our niaveity we used the same
points as
magi do: Tech\resourses Spens an a priority and get 50 or so. If the
adept
had essense lose then it came off of his magic rating and the x amount of
points. as long as he had at least one fvull magic point left hae had
most of
his original points.
But then recently ( still years ago ) we decided that was over-board and
began using whatever the adepts magic rating was. This caused a definate
drop in thier power level.
Did anybody out there make this same mistake?>>
Oh, dear. You used force points when buying Physad powers. <sigh> That is
probably the *worst* and most vague section of the entire SR2 book, and
no, you aren't the first or only person to make that mistake. I spent a
very heated argument with one player on that. He's on the list, perhaps
he'll tell you about it:)
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:27:09 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
On Sun, 6 Jul 1997 02:55:36 -0500 "Bruce H. Nagel"
<NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> writes:
<snippage throughout>
>> Well, as far as I know, you don't get dice pools when a) you're
>> defaulting or b) you're chipping the skill.
>Actually I was unaware of this, but it makes sense in both cases.
I'm not entirely sure, but I know you don't get hacking pool if you're
chipping Computer skill, it makes sense to me that you wouldn't get it if
you don't have the skill.
>> So a character without
>> Unarmed Combat still can't defend himself decently, he just has a lot
>> more dice to throw into damage resistance.
>And that's part of my problem. Before, people ran out of dice in their
>Defense Pool, now it's a lot harder, based off of attributes. Mages can
throw
>spells to wear a target down for the party, safe and secure that their
Combat
>Pool is there to help pull their butt out of the fire (Quickness and
Willpower
>usually being fairly high for mages anyway). I don't like folks who
don't
>participate in much combat (meaning firearms or melee skills) being able
to
>dodge and defend against those pretty well. It was a good reason for a
lot of
>characters to take at least some Unarmed Combat, and diversify their
skills a
>bit, imo.
<boggle> You want your players to diversify *toward* combat??? I have
trouble breaking them away from it!
>> And of the archetypes, I
>> didn't see too many of them who had more than 1 die to spare if they
>> threw as much combat pool into a given attack to double it. And the
ones
>> that did usually didn't have combat skills that were *that* high
anyway.
>Street Samurai: Firearms 5, Unarmed Combat 6 (and hand razors)
>Mercenary: Firearms 6, Armed Combat 6 CP: 8
>Former Company Man: Firearms 6, Unarmed Combat 6 CP: 5
>Bodyguard: Firearms 6, Unarmed Combat 6 CP: 8
Rigger: Firearms 2 CP: 8
Combat Mage: Firearms 3, Unarmed Combat 2 CP: 7 (9)
Detective: Firearms 6, Unarmed Combat 6, CP: 7
And we'll ignore the deckers:)
>No, they don't have a great many dice left following that, but have
likely
>waxed the target with 4 added dice to the attack (10 dice), at least
that's
>been my experience. I liked that the old pools (dodge/defense)
represented
>your ability to defend against incoming attacks, representing your
dividing
>your attention between incoming threats, and that one or two attacks
usually
>depleted your reserve of defending dice, you had to rely on Body after
that.
OTOH, for low initiative characters (like mages, deckers and riggers),
having that combat pool gives them a chance at survival until their turn
finally comes up. And, if you really despise the new pools, go back to
the old ones. Or use the optional rules on page 48 of the SR Companion
for an SR2 Dodge pool.
>I'd almost like to see something like what I proposed for Sorcery Pools
(under
>the drain discussion): Base a dice pool off of firearms (or whichever
combat
>skill you use on your action) to attack _and_ defend with. If you don't
use
>all your Firearms dice in the attack test, you can save them to dodge
(this
>meaning you're snapping off quick shots and keeping in cover a lot and
>watching for possible attacks). And you could only use the
*appropriate*
>skill to defend against an incoming attack (though melee weapons and
unarmed
>combat would be interchangeable, as might firearms and projectile/thrown
>weapons).
Actually, what I saw for Sorcery seemed to be *exactly* the same as the
current rules for Magic Pool:)
>> <shrug> To each his own, I suppose. Dice pools wind up being a lot of
>> extra paperwork, though.
>I found Threat Ratings too abstract for me, and GMing the most I found
the
>dice pools comfy. They were simpler when they only came into defense
(1st ed)
>and I still prefer them that way.
As I said, to each his own:)
>> I just don't hear too many others advocating the removal of dice
pools:)
>Maybe it's my pet peeve. I see it as the simplest way to remove excess
dice,
>as they're the single biggest source of extra dice.
All depends on what you consider as 'extra' dice.
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:27:09 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Apology (was: re: SR/ED ties )
On Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:42:56 -0400 Archie Burks <Dragathor@***.COM>
writes:
<<Sorry to all.>>
Don't worry about it. Next time, just include spoiler space.
<<I didn't realize that my post would be considered by some as a spoiler.
I
was just trying to see if anyone out there had a simular opion on the
topic.
In the futur I will try to contain my post to general knowledge or the
rules
themselves.>>
Well, info that isn't supposed to be general knowledge among characters,
or includes recent events in the FASA game world (like the death of a
certain 'person' :) should probably be considered as spoilers. This
should include the endings to adventures, whether old or not. So, don't
worry about limiting yourself to rules and general knowledge stuff, just
be prepared to put in spoiler space for other stuff.
<<Also, when I siad the the worlds were defined by the rise and fall of
magic,
I did mean that odd were without and even with magic. I just didn't say
it
that way.>>
Well, why don't you say what you mean?
:)
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:56:27 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PRONE <downsa@******.EDU>
Subject: shotguns and silencers
hello all,
had a bit of a problem in my last gaming session. a player bought a
mossberg CMDT and equipped it with a Imp. gasvent IV. i disagreed with this
player, with the thought that niether silencers nor gasvents which are placed
on the ends of the barrels, could withstand the force of the exiting round of
a shotgun. however, i cannot find the ruling in the books to back my airy
statement. any help would be appreciated.
Aaron
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 02:06:50 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: FASA Site
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Is it me, or is there something wrong with the FASA site. I haven't been
able to access it all weekend?
Darned puzzling it is.
--
Dark Avenger
Reality was an illusion caused by a lack of alcohol, now it's not an
illusion anymore :)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:22:27 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Fortune Tellers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Okay, before you send buckets of big smelly carp my way, let me explain
what I am looking for. ;)
I am not really looking for any rules regarding whether fortune telling is
accurate, if/when/how it is allowable or anything of the like. I have
already made my own decisions for my campaign in this regard, and am pretty
sure that any decisions about this are considered house rules anyway. ;)
What I *am* looking for are some ideas for what an exotic fortune teller of
strong reputation would ask for payment. I have an idea for an exotic
fortune teller from the middle east who is very good at what she
does...almost too good. She has many powerful clients (who do their best
not to be seen with her, of course). She is blind to the physical world,
but has a strong psychometric (aura reading) ability.
Now, I could just say that she is very expensive. That in itself would
limit access to her. I could even give her an eclectic schedule, so
finding her when she is in isn't always easy. However, I don't want to cop
out and just have her charge money. Any ideas on what else she may expect
for payment besides nu yen?
Thanks :)
Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:25:48 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Physical Adpets, what do you play?
In-Reply-To: <19970706221943.7083.rocketmail@*****.rocketmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
OK,
I have managed to upset my wife by convincing her to play a Phys Ad in my
game.
What sort of characters do you play when playing a PA?
They never will be anywhere near as powerful as a sammy, right?
What are the advantages of playing one in SRII?
The last time I really played was SRI, where Adpets seemed to be more
powerful.
I know this is probably an old subject, but pointers to relative texts
would be extremely helpful.
Thanks,
Jaymz
/-justin@****.mcp.com----------------------jbell@****.mcp.com--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:31:40 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <Dreadnaut1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: shotguns and silencers
Aaron asked:
> had a bit of a problem in my last gaming session. a player bought
a
> mossberg CMDT and equipped it with a Imp. gasvent IV. i disagreed with
this
> player, with the thought that niether silencers nor gasvents which are
> placed
> on the ends of the barrels, could withstand the force of the exiting round
> of
> a shotgun. however, i cannot find the ruling in the books to back my airy
> statement. any help would be appreciated.
>
Actually, I'm pretty sure you can Gas Vent a shotgun, however, you can't fire
shot from a Gas Vented shotgun, and only a sound suppressor will keep the
noise down, and that only works with solid slugs as well.
In addition, since shotguns are so damn loud, the sound suppressor is less
efficient.
Later-
Duncan
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:33:59 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: The Spaceman <spaced@*.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Fortune Tellers
In-Reply-To: <199707070123.VAA08166@****.provide.net>
>>>>> Justin Pinnow didst say unto the aether thusly:
# Now, I could just say that she is very expensive. That in itself would
# limit access to her. I could even give her an eclectic schedule, so
# finding her when she is in isn't always easy. However, I don't want to cop
# out and just have her charge money. Any ideas on what else she may expect
# for payment besides nu yen?
The classic Mafia "you will owe me a favour to collected upon later"
pops immediately to mind. You could also have her ask for a unique item or
service ("you must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with.... a
herring!"). Maybe she's got exotic tastes, and wants the first bottle of
Beaujolais 2058 personally addressed and delivered to her. So the runners
have to deal with the vineyards, with the customer (undoubtedly a AAA mega)
who reserved the first bottle, deal with possible breakage, etc., etc.
The Spaceman |The man that hath no music in himself
spaced@*.washington.edu |...is fit for treasons, stratagems,
Check out the Bill Page! |and spoils - Lorenzo (Merchant of V.)
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~spaced/bill.html
New maintainer of the Shadowrun Player Directory:
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~spaced/srdir/
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:03:58 -0700
Reply-To: mbreton@**.netcom.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: NPC maintenance
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Any GMs out there have good tips for keeping NPCs easily? I was
thinking of using index cards, but feel that might require a lot of
writing. Are there any computer programs out there that make life
easier when it comes to NPC generation and/or filing? The only program
I have found is on Paolo's site, but the address is incorrect.
Amusing (?) story about notecards: I was running an ADnD game in
college when I discovered the great use of index cards - I kept
everything important on them, started the campaign off by holding up a
single adventure and declaring that I had the entire adventure written
on it.
I thought they were perfect, absolutely no flaws..
...until I overheard one of the players talking, after an adventure,
whether they thought a particular item had any importance. "Couldn't
be," said one of the guys, "He didn't have to look on an index card for
it."
After that, I started keeping quite a few important items in my head and
one full sheets of paper, but it was disheartening, to say the least.
Those were the days..
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 22:28:52 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: [SR3] Barriers
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Loki once dared to write,
>I don't know if anyone has mentioned this for S/R III, but I'd
>personally like some retouching on the barrier rules.
There's something I almost overlooked. An example of breaking
through would also be helpful. I had to make all sorts of notes and
charts to figure it out and even then it still wasn't that clear.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:36:26 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: FASA Site
In-Reply-To: <868237642.0715400.0@*******.demon.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 02:06 7/7/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Is it me, or is there something wrong with the FASA site. I haven't been
>able to access it all weekend?
>
>Darned puzzling it is.
They have some sort of instant ad for the SR CCG, I believe.. you load the
page, and its supposed to display the ad, then goto the main page. I know
lynx ( my primary browser ), just coughs on it, though..
-Aj
--
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
"Can I have a cup of angst to go with my un-happy meal?" -- Hi & Lois
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:03:31 -0700
Reply-To: mbreton@**.netcom.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: Fortune Tellers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Okay, before you send buckets of big smelly carp my way, let me explain
> what I am looking for. ;)
> I am not really looking for any rules regarding whether fortune telling is
> accurate, if/when/how it is allowable or anything of the like. I have
> already made my own decisions for my campaign in this regard, and am pretty
> sure that any decisions about this are considered house rules anyway. ;)
> What I *am* looking for are some ideas for what an exotic fortune teller of
> strong reputation would ask for payment. I have an idea for an exotic
> fortune teller from the middle east who is very good at what she
> does...almost too good. She has many powerful clients (who do their best
> not to be seen with her, of course). She is blind to the physical world,
> but has a strong psychometric (aura reading) ability.
Ahh, the question arises: Does she really tell fortunes? I had one
palmreader use spells; the players all assumed it was Foretelling (from
Awakenings, realeased the week before the particular adventure) when it
was really a Control Emotion spell (grin) - set to trigger the players
into more or less forcing the particular future the fortune teller
wanted to come true.
> Now, I could just say that she is very expensive. That in itself would
> limit access to her. I could even give her an eclectic schedule, so
> finding her when she is in isn't always easy. However, I don't want to cop
> out and just have her charge money. Any ideas on what else she may expect
> for payment besides nu yen?
She's really a bug shaman (no, that was done in the UB sourcebook..)
Definitely go with the eclectic schedule; maybe she follows solar
eclipses as they pan across the earth? And she might be more willing
(and thus able to see more clearly) if you presented her with magic
items, stolen infants, sacrifices of virginity (possibly to her), a
'loss of fortune' = giving all your money to the charity the characters
hate most (Aztech Security Guard Retirement Fund - she has a son in the
Jaguars) or just an trip of fate that causes them to lose most of hteir
money, or anything else that would prevent them from visiting her in the
future (rigger's copter blows up, etcet.)
Or possibly, she can 'sell' one possible future (make away with the
Secret Prototype) but only at the expense of another (your family dies)
and so it's possible to bargain all night and never come out ahead - the
very act of bargaining changing the future, blather.
> Thanks :)
Was it even comprehensible?
-Matt
> Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:03:38 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA Site
On Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:36:26 -0600 Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA> writes:
<<They have some sort of instant ad for the SR CCG, I believe.. you load
the
page, and its supposed to display the ad, then goto the main page. I
know
lynx ( my primary browser ), just coughs on it, though..>>
You're not along - the AOL browser (Gah!) loads the ad and stops. Good
thing I could remember that FASA's SR directory was
http://www.fasa.com/Shadowrun/ - and that they had an obvious SR home
page (SRHOME.html:) Haven't tried accessing the directories for BT or ED.
Probably work out the same way, though.
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:03:38 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Fortune Tellers
On Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:22:27 -0400 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
writes:
>Any ideas on what else she may expect for payment besides nu yen?
She's magical, correct? Send them on a trip after some rare, Awakened tea
leaves:) Perhaps she needs access to a magical library - only the letters
have to be printed with orichalcum ink so that she can read it from the
astral:) Or she needs some of a rare, expensive radical from some arcana
or other and can't enchant it herself. Or she needs help on some magical
theory somesuch and needs the players to contact her old teacher - who
happens to be stuck in Chi-town (might not work, depending on when the
game is set). Etc, etc, etc.
:)
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:12:47 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Skill Limits
In-Reply-To: <199707041844.MAA14297@******> from "Adam J" at Jul 4,
97 12:44:52 pm
Content-Type: text
Adam J wrote:
|
| This is my biggest pet peeve, and I'm in the middle of writing an article
| about it for TSS. Characters will 4 or 5 skills/spells at 6, and nothing
| lower. I know that everyone wants to make a character that is going to
| survive a few encounters, and I can respect that. However, some people
| have the attitude that 'If its not useful in extremely obvious ways, its
| useless'. The street sammy with Firearms, Street Eti, Stealth, and Armed
| Combat, all at 6, and nothing else. Is he so good at all of that, and so
| bad at everything else that it doesn't rate?
| A real human, most of us, have a TON of skills, too many to fit in any game
| description, and all at varying levels. While most of us have several that
| shine, we have alot that don't, but still are useful once in awhile. How
| come most Shadowrun characters don't?
Try this. Starting characters may have 1 skill at 6, 2 at 5, 4 at 4, 6 at
3, and so on. If multiples of 2 don't work use multiples of 3
(1,3,6,9,12,15). Or you could use powers of 2 (1,2,4,8,16,32) or 3
(1,3,9,27..), whatever works best for your campaign.
| Well, this has nothing to do with third edition, but :)
At least it's about Shadowrun :)
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink! - The sound of a crescent roll being stolen.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:14:11 -0700
Reply-To: mbreton@**.netcom.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Steve Kenson wrote:
> OK, survey question #2 (following up on the Pet Peeves thread):
> Many people have suggested setting Spell Drain TNs back at Force instead of
> F/2. What do people think of this? Please remember, I need to know WHY you
> think the idea is good or bad.
I'd vote for full Force on drain, but this is because I like to have
weird Force modifiers that aren't (yet?) in SR canon - Force*2 or
Force^2 for reallllly high-voltage spells. Just easier to calculate,
that's all.
> Steve K.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:15:48 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
In-Reply-To: <199707041356.HAA18848@******> from "Bruce" at Jul 3,
97 02:15:24 pm
Content-Type: text
Bruce wrote:
|
| >And of course initiation is a collossal rip-off for physads... They have to
| >spend at least 20 karma to get to grade 1 at which time they get to spend
| >another whole point! Wow, I can buy a general skill at level 4 or get a
| >whole physad point!
| >
| >>>>>>>Agreed. I solved this by cutting the costs of Physad powers
in half
| after character generation.<<<<<<<
As others have said, for Priority B the system is fine, IMHO. What I'm
thinking of doing is allowing Priority A PhysAds, which have 2 points to
spend on PA abilities per point of Magic. My reasoning is that Priority A
Magicians have basically twice as many options as Priority B Adepts.
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink! - The sound of a crescent roll being stolen.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:23:54 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA Site
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> You're not along - the AOL browser (Gah!) loads the ad and stops. Good
> thing I could remember that FASA's SR directory was
> http://www.fasa.com/Shadowrun/ - and that they had an obvious SR home
> page (SRHOME.html:) Haven't tried accessing the directories for BT or ED.
> Probably work out the same way, though.
Have patience people.
It appears to just be working on a timed "push" system.
Yes you get stuck at the ad for awhile, but eventually you skip ahead to
the main page.
Then again, some browsers may not support push tech after all ... sorry.
Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"Every word is nonsense, but I understand ..." - Counting Crows
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:29:30 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Walker of Shadows <OABBrother@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Effects of Bioware on magic...
In a message dated 97-07-05 03:29:14 EDT, you write:
<< My name is David and this is my second post. I figured that it would be
more fun to be known as my street name here so refer to me as Gabriel.
Anyways, to my questoin:
I don't own the source book(s) that refer to bioware and its effects on
essence and magic. The character generaters I have for SR both show
that bioware has no effect on magic. I was just recently told that
bioware does indeed affect magic the same way that cyberware does. It
however does not affect essence. My questions then are this: First,
does bioware affect a character's magic rating? Second if it does
affect magic then why does it not affect essence? Finally, if there is
a difference between someones essence and magic, then why do they
correspond almost exactly to each other (essence loss reduces magic,
initiation increases essence and magic both)?
As I said before I'm new to this mailing list and to the SR game
itself. So any knowledge is helpful!
Gabriel
>>
Actually, the rules say that it does affect essence. But only to magical
characters, because of the same reasons that doctors can't use their high
powered sergical toys...it frags with their magic. And since their magic is
so closly related to their essence, it reduces essence the same amount as the
body cout gained, and permanantly.
Walker of Shadows
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:32:23 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Walker of Shadows <OABBrother@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Pools
In a message dated 97-07-05 23:09:12 EDT, you write:
<< Hi,
I have a small problem, My SR2 manual was lost and I need some clarification
on the combat pool. To calculate its value you would add INT, WIL, and QIC
then divide by two? I believe this is the proper way, if I am wrong then
please let me know.
Thank you, Archie
>>
You have it correct.
I think.
Walker of Shadows
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:35:37 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Walker of Shadows <OABBrother@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Request for feedback.
In a message dated 97-07-06 00:13:48 EDT, you write:
<< - When speaking about the Physical Adept Ability of Improved Physical
Senses (p.125 SRII) the book says that, "Unless an improvement involves a
radio or similar technological phenomena, anything that can be improved
by cyberware can be improved by this power." Would the GM's out there
support buying Physical Adept versions of the Spatial Recognizer and the
Balance Augmentor (p. 24 CYBERTECHNOLOGY)?
---------------
Bill Coleman >>
Absolutally, it just represents the pycad's body improving it's balance and
hearing and soforth.
Walker of Shadows
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:39:56 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Walker of Shadows <OABBrother@***.COM>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
In a message dated 97-07-06 05:31:06 EDT, you write:
<< Anyways, how does such a rule apply to spell casting since a skill
isn't directly involved in the roll? Is it 1's equal to or greater
than the force of the spell means an oops? This means force 1 spells
are rather touchy. Is it equal to or greater than Sorcery? This means
someone with a Sorcery skill of 6 that's rolling five dice or less
from spell force and pool can never screw it up.
We finally ruled that 1's equal to or greater than Sorcery -OR- all
dice coming up 1's, whichever is lower, means the spell caster flubbed
it.
Ideas, comments or suggestions?
>>
I believe that it was the rating of the spell or force of the
spirit/elemental (check the Shadowrun Companion), and then if it went over
it was a misfire and something went wrong, like a different elemental was
conjured a level above or below or the spell blew up in the caster's face, or
one time I had a manipulation spell create a new paranormal <insert evil
laugh now> which attacked the runners. It is lots of fun what you can do.
Enjoy,
Walker of Shadows
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:03:56 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Aaron once dared to write,
>some evidence to back this idea that blood elf thorns are genetic, jenna
>from tir tairngire, daughter of ol' queen alachia (of bloodwood fame) had a
>painting in her house of her with thorns. apart from that small bit o'
>evidence, this is just a theory.
No, the picture was of Queen Alachia. And because I don't recall
anyone ever stating it before, Hasn't anyone ever considered that the
Ritual of Thorns was undone? There would be no need to prevent any growth
of thorns then.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:05:27 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
>Ah, someone else who fails to rise to the bait :) Agreed, wasting time
>should definately be more fun than starting flames. Oh well, guess I'll
>have to go find Nightlife and start quoting Jurassic Park at him again
><grin>
Doh! Nope no tonight I just finished a weekend of double shifts and I'm way
too tired.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:10:37 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Kabael once dared to write,
>>Nope. It's very limited adept magic. Think about it.
>>A quickening viewed from astral resembles a thread. We just haven't figured
>>out how to weave them into REALLY powerful spells.... Yet.....
>>
>
>really! now that is interesting, but what does SR magic have drain, while ED
>doesnt. Is that another step. Maybe Initiates become Adepts (ED style)
>eventually, would other characters develop something akin to initiation,
>imagine an Discipline for Decking, or a Street Samurai Adept (again, ED
>type : )
What do you think Strain is? If you like, you can consider Thread
Weaving a centering skill. Now if you follow the guideline that practiced
continual shared belief shapes magic then to get the adepts you speak of
would take a tightly focused dedication followed over generations to
achieve. We have no worries of this coming to pass in the Shadowrun time
line we play in.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:14:13 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PRONE <downsa@******.EDU>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties
Aaron once dared to write,
>some evidence to back this idea that blood elf thorns are genetic, jenna
>from tir tairngire, daughter of ol' queen alachia (of bloodwood fame) had a
>painting in her house of her with thorns. apart from that small bit o'
>evidence, this is just a theory.
MC23 wrote:
- No, the picture was of Queen Alachia. And because I don't recall
-anyone ever stating it before, Hasn't anyone ever considered that the
-Ritual of Thorns was undone? There would be no need to prevent any growth
-of thorns then.
if i remember correctly, there's an ed sourcebook for the bloodwood and the
ritual of thorns is theoretically reversible. but alachia, in her pride, won't
reverse it because it will mean that she made a mistake in allowing it to be
cast. the blood wood itself puts forth a reason, somehow the ritual changed
the wood (not just the name change of wyrm to blood) and the wood's pattern.
changing it back would take great amounts of power.
Aaron
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:21:21 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Aaron once dared to write,
>if i remember correctly, there's an ed sourcebook for the bloodwood and the
>ritual of thorns is theoretically reversible. but alachia, in her pride,
>won't
>reverse it because it will mean that she made a mistake in allowing it to be
>cast. the blood wood itself puts forth a reason, somehow the ritual changed
>the wood (not just the name change of wyrm to blood) and the wood's pattern.
>changing it back would take great amounts of power.
The 4th world has ended in Shadowrun but not in Earthdawn. By this
I'm saying that what happened to the Blood Wood in the end has yet to be
revealed. Don't forget there is a living legend cult dedicated to undoing
the Ritual of Thorns. Maybe they succeed.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:27:25 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
---Gurth wrote:
<snip>
> Anyway, seeing that Cybertechnology gives a 50x multiplier to the
costs,
> that still makes drastic invasive alpha grade surgery cost 12.5
million,
> and puts it out of the reach of just about everyone.
I ran into the same issues. The 50x for Alpha/Beta or the 200x for
Delta on surgery and recovery can make things just ridiculous. I
finally ruled that Alpha/Beta are 150% and Delta 200% of the normal
surgery and recovery fees. (Basically a Street Index of 1.5 and 2 for
medical costs on custom cyberware, which seems more in keeping with
the system.)
===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:31:49 -0700
Reply-To: mbreton@**.netcom.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Stick to the shadows, chummers,
> Steve
Congrats, Steve (ya lucky joik). Although there are a lot of ideas
bubbling around in my head, only one comes out clearly now, and it has
nothing to do with the magic system... I *swear* from my newbie days
that there were wo condition monitors in SR2, one that listed "Light"
wounds as Box 1 only, another that listed Light wounds as Boxes 1-2 - a
big difference when you take healing spells into account. I finally
settled my own way, I'm not sure if FASA has errata on it, but it
through off a new player I just introduced to the game today, so it
needs fixing.
And one of these days I'll stop using run-on sentences.
Congrats again, looking forward...
-Matt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:30:46 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <Dreadnaut1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Fortune Tellers
Justin said:
> # Now, I could just say that she is very expensive. That in itself would
> # limit access to her. I could even give her an eclectic schedule, so
> # finding her when she is in isn't always easy. However, I don't want to
> cop
> # out and just have her charge money. Any ideas on what else she may
expect
> # for payment besides nu yen?
>
Send the runner who wants his ( or her ) fortune told on a maniacly difficult
astral quest ( or a really strange hallucination/dream for the un-initiated
), revealing anything you wish in an inanely complicated metaphor...
She does very little for them herself, but to get anything major out of her
requires loads of work on the players' part, which is far better than sending
them a huge bill.
Then there is the ever popular exchange of information. She asks them for
info they don't have, thus forcing them to dig up a piece of dirt to find
what they really wish to know.
Later-
Duncan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:32:11 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 06 Jul 1997 20:27:09 -0400 (EDT)"
<19970706.202554.17111.3.lobo1@****.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
You wrote:
> <boggle> You want your players to diversify *toward* combat??? I have
> trouble breaking them away from it!
Well, not really. But when folks who don't have combat skills (i.e. experience
in combat) they tend to get waxed, simple as that. Instead they tend to
survive based on attributes in the right places... that doesn't make sense to
me.
> And we'll ignore the deckers:)
You know a lot of deckers go tanking in the gunfights, let me know. I want to
meet such brave individuals. :)
> OTOH, for low initiative characters (like mages, deckers and riggers),
> having that combat pool gives them a chance at survival until their turn
> finally comes up. And, if you really despise the new pools, go back to
> the old ones. Or use the optional rules on page 48 of the SR Companion
> for an SR2 Dodge pool.
That's what I did, and that's why I'm advocating said position.
> Actually, what I saw for Sorcery seemed to be *exactly* the same as the
> current rules for Magic Pool:)
Well, I posted something to the list earlier about magic pool to the effect
that: you had a pool of dice equal to sorcery skill which could be spent to
give force to a spell (the spell had no force unless dice were allocated from
this pool, that is), for spell defense, or to resist drain for casting spells.
That's what I was referring to, sorry for any confusion.
> >Maybe it's my pet peeve. I see it as the simplest way to remove excess
> dice,
> >as they're the single biggest source of extra dice.
> All depends on what you consider as 'extra' dice.
Aye.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:38:11 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: shotguns and silencers
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 06 Jul 1997 20:56:27 -0500 (EST)"
<009B6DD7.89599F60.54@******.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
> hello all,
> had a bit of a problem in my last gaming session. a player bought a
> mossberg CMDT and equipped it with a Imp. gasvent IV. i disagreed with this
> player, with the thought that niether silencers nor gasvents which are placed
> on the ends of the barrels, could withstand the force of the exiting round of
> a shotgun. however, i cannot find the ruling in the books to back my airy
> statement. any help would be appreciated.
Actually, Aaron, I don't think there's anything in the rules that says you
can't. You could certainly rule as such however, I've never heard of anyone
trying to silence a shotgun. Silencers for them may just be unavailable, but I
wouldn't say that the 'force of the exiting round' has anything to do with it,
any more than it would for a pistol, rifle, or SMG. Even the Barret I think
can be silenced (check Fields of Fire, if the Barret can be silenced, then
there should be no technical problem silencing a shotgun in like manner).
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:08:29 -0700
Reply-To: granite@**.net
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <granite@**.net>
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Organization: Granite Forge Productions
Subject: Re: Name Players in Books (OT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> Granite...Fro....(congrats)
Thanks..I still haven't seen it...And I probably won't until I hit
GenCon if this valley stays true to form...
> (bows in heavy admiration, kisses the ground........
You may rise... ;p
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
===============================================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:41:13 -0400
Reply-To: shergold@***********.net
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Shergold <shergold@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: Fortune Tellers
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> On Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:22:27 -0400 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
> writes:
>
>Any ideas on what else she may expect for payment besides nu yen?
If she uses Tarot Cards in addition to reading palms or whatever, how
about she sends the runners on a search for the deck used/created by
Aleister Crowley? Maybe send them into the Amazon for a truly rare plant
that blooms only on a full moon under certain conditions for a special
ceremony she has been researching during her entire adult life.
Hopefully my contributions help and don't sound too stupid.
SilverFire
"I merely chewed in self-defense."
-Draco the Dragon
"Dragonheart"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:51:01 -0400
Reply-To: shergold@***********.net
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Shergold <shergold@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: shotguns and silencers
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<stuff snipped>
losthalo wrote:
> Actually, Aaron, I don't think there's anything in the rules that says
you
> can't. You could certainly rule as such however, I've never heard of
anyone
> trying to silence a shotgun. Silencers for them may just be unavailable,
but I
> wouldn't say that the 'force of the exiting round' has anything to do
with it,
> any more than it would for a pistol, rifle, or SMG. Even the Barret I
think
> can be silenced (check Fields of Fire, if the Barret can be silenced,
then
> there should be no technical problem silencing a shotgun in like manner).
I believe there is sound suppresion for the Barret, but I don't believe
that it can be truly silenced considering the size and all. The only reason
I know that it can be muffled is that one of my Street Sams got it as part
of payment for a run for some guy in the Army who called himself Sgt.
Slaughter for some ungodly reason. Of course the less said about that run
the better.
SilverFire
"I merely chewed in self-defense."
-Draco the Dragon
"Dragonheart"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:11:05 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 06 Jul 1997 21:27:25 -0700"
<19970707042725.8602.rocketmail@*****.rocketmail.com>
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You wrote:
> I ran into the same issues. The 50x for Alpha/Beta or the 200x for
> Delta on surgery and recovery can make things just ridiculous. I
> finally ruled that Alpha/Beta are 150% and Delta 200% of the normal
> surgery and recovery fees. (Basically a Street Index of 1.5 and 2 for
> medical costs on custom cyberware, which seems more in keeping with
> the system.)
Just a note in defense of said original prices, if you control one of the
*only* sources in the *world*, you can name your price so long as someone is
willing to pay it, enough someone's to keep you in business.
Myself, I've always wondered a bit after the prices of WR 2 and 3 anyway. Look
at CP's prices on cyber, I think they're a lot more realistic. 500,000 Nuyen
for a Cortex bomb? Can't be worth it, I'm sorry. 9,000 for retractable hand
razors? Come on, can you see anyone paying that kind of money?
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:23:11 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
In-Reply-To: <01IKXQX1HWI89I4HLS@******.acs.muohio.edu>
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At 01:11 7/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Myself, I've always wondered a bit after the prices of WR 2 and 3 anyway.
Look
>at CP's prices on cyber, I think they're a lot more realistic. 500,000 Nuyen
>for a Cortex bomb? Can't be worth it, I'm sorry. 9,000 for retractable hand
>razors? Come on, can you see anyone paying that kind of money?
If they were much more cheaper, it would be cost effective for every corp
to wire every important employee with a remote detonated cortext bomb.
Same with spurs, if they were 1,000, anyone could afford to have the
suckers implanted after only a few months savings.
Except me, I still don't have a real job. :P
-Adam
--
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
"Can I have a cup of angst to go with my un-happy meal?" -- Hi & Lois
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:20:48 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Court Schuett <schuett@*****.IVCC.EDU>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970707084747.27566A-100000@*******.dialix.co m.au>
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>The official word from FASA's Mike Mulvilhill is that the thorn growth
>was due to a ritual performed at the birth of the elf, and is in no way
>genetic. Thus, unless someone starts doing the rituals again, no elves
>in Shadowrun will start looking like bald rosebushes.
>
>Lady Jestyr
What about IE though? Someone like Alachia would still have the thorns in
her, right, just not manifested so to speak.
?
-=Court
/* Court Schuett, a totally modern boy.
schuett@*****.ivcc.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When I made a shadow on my window shade
they called the police and testified
But they're like the people chained up in the cave
in the allegory of the people in the cave
by the Greek guy
No one understands
No one knows my plan
-They Might Be Giants
***************************************************************************/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:29:39 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 06 Jul 1997 23:23:11 -0600"
<3.0.2.32.19970706232311.006e3ccc@****.lis.ab.ca>
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You wrote:
> If they were much more cheaper, it would be cost effective for every corp
> to wire every important employee with a remote detonated cortext bomb.
> Same with spurs, if they were 1,000, anyone could afford to have the
> suckers implanted after only a few months savings.
It already is cost-effective for corps, they produce the things. Those prices
are retail, the cost of production cannot be even near 235K for WR2. I'm not
saying it isn't pertinent to gamebalance, rather that they are not even
remotely in keeping with real-world pricing. I'd say the essence cost, not the
nuyen price, keeps corps from implanting wire in all their security.
> Except me, I still don't have a real job. :P
Ah, join the club.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:35:45 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Physical Adpets, what do you play?
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 06 Jul 1997 20:25:48 -0500"
<3.0.1.32.19970706202548.007d9270@***.iquest.net>
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You wrote:
> They never will be anywhere near as powerful as a sammy, right?
All depends on your point of view.
> What are the advantages of playing one in SRII?
Subtlety, superior stealth, unusual and unexpected abilities.
> The last time I really played was SRI, where Adpets seemed to be more
> powerful.
They were, but too powerful in the eyes of many.
Think of the legends about ninja, berserkers, and the like, people who could
push their bodies beyond sane human limits. They can take some o fthe same
roles as samurai, but don't have the heavy reaction abilities of the street
sam. But they can out-stealth him, and outdo him in melee combat, among other
things. Some perform more like AD&D thieves, others simply boost their
attributes and fighting skills, etc...
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:02:31 -0800
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: david lowe <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: sr/ed ties (Dragons 'n stuff)
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Does anyone know of a section (I belive it's in the Atzlan sourcebook, but
for the life of me, I can't find it) where they talk about what's inside
Atzlan temples? I vaguely recall something like shrouded forms with astral
conduits to them, and a reply from someone like Dunk about "do you realize
what that means? etc?". I'm working on a theory about a particular horror
and I need to find that reference. Any help would be appreciated.
D.
David R. Lowe (dlowe@****.com)
Photography/Graphic Design
"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:08:37 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
In-Reply-To: <199707051021.MAA05502@**********.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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At 05-Jul-97 wrote Gurth:
>Anyway, seeing that Cybertechnology gives a 50x multiplier to the costs,
>that still makes drastic invasive alpha grade surgery cost 12.5 million,
>and puts it out of the reach of just about everyone.
Hmmm.........12.5million?
I can`t follow you here.
My calculations lead me to 45.500 for standard
2.275mega and 9.1mega for alpha/delta hospitalizion costs.
And thats for the worst case of no body successes.
--
Barbie
==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.
(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)
==================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:03:13 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
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---Walker of Shadows wrote:
>
> I believe that it was the rating of the spell or force of the
> spirit/elemental (check the Shadowrun Companion), and then if it
went over
> it was a misfire and something went wrong, like a different
elemental was
> conjured a level above or below or the spell blew up in the caster's
face, or
> one time I had a manipulation spell create a new paranormal <insert
evil
> laugh now> which attacked the runners. It is lots of fun what you
can do.
I remember the time a shaman in my original group oops'd when casting
Mana Missle at a security guard. I informed him he stammered in
casting the spell and it came out <spanish> Mañana </spanish>
Missle...but not to worry since the spell would hit him tomorrow. :o)
===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 03:21:31 -0700
Reply-To: mbreton@**.netcom.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: SR3
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Bull wrote:
> I have one comment to make...
> Do -*NOT*- change the basic rules the way you did from 1st ed. to 2nd ed.
On a completely non-related issue -- First Ed was Big Blue; Second Ed
was Big Black -- what color will Third Ed be? (Big Brown?)
> I think that would be a mistake. However, defiantely update the
> Matrix/Rigger sections, and include full lists for spells, phys-ad powers,
> and weapons and such. Don;t bother with descriptioons and such though...
> taht way we still have to buy the sourcebooks if we want anything more than
> basic numbers on it...:]
Bull, if you didn't have that smiley there...
I could possibly see a boxed set with one basic rules booklet and one
equipment booklet (as well as magic booklet and matrix booklet) <==
crappy idea. Scrap it.
I *would* like to see better descriptions of the Basic Tech (especially
Wired Reflexes!) offered, something along the lines of the Shadowtech
descriptions. Revise the Body Index rules, and perhaps inject some
crossover items (Bone Lacing, in my mind, should have both a BI rating
and cost Essence).
On a nearly-related thread, one way to end the problem of characters
starting out with the magnatech items is simply not to have any items in
the Basic Bxxx with an Availability over 6....
> Don't include the new optional stiff from the companion (i.e., Variant
> metatypes and Edges and Flaws.) If you include it in the main rulebook,
> regardless of whether you stick the <optional> tag on it or not, too many
> players will want to use it as standard ("Well it's in the main book!").
I'd drop the optional metatypes altogether, revamp the Flaws so as to
eliminate the hosers (Lightning Reflexes, Magic Invulnerability...)
-Matt
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 03:23:26 -0700
Reply-To: mbreton@**.netcom.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: Skill Limits
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> Try this. Starting characters may have 1 skill at 6, 2 at 5, 4 at 4, 6 at
> 3, and so on. If multiples of 2 don't work use multiples of 3
> (1,3,6,9,12,15). Or you could use powers of 2 (1,2,4,8,16,32) or 3
> (1,3,9,27..), whatever works best for your campaign.
Sounds a little like Vampire... do you have similar pyramids for the
different priority levels?
I fully admit the slanted-skill characters are definitely a problem, I'm
just not sure this is the solution :)
-Matt
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 03:41:31 -0700
Reply-To: mbreton@**.netcom.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
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John E Pederson wrote:
> Figured I'd go ahead and give a few more comments while I was at this:)
> My personal pet peeves with SR:
> What does all this stuff do???
> -Three fourths of the the cyberware isn't really explained as to how it
> does what it does. Wired Reflexes is my current favorite example. What
> about the blood filter? How on earth do you filter *everything* that goes
> into someone's blood? :) I guess I just like to have answers.
Heartily seconded. As I mentioned in another post, I'd like to see
Shadowtech-style write-ups for all, though I understand that might be a
bit large for the main rulebook.
Passing thought: Streetdoc sourcebook devoted to creating cyberware?
Or perhaps better linking from 'generic' cyberware to name-brand
cyberware - free upgrades from Smartlink I to II from ARES this month...
> Lots of people have problems with the binding, I've seen this, too. I've
> watched four different people buy copies of the SR softcover, only for
> three of the four to have the covers falling off and pages falling out
> within months. The one guy whose book isn't suffering this problem is the
> guy who had the covers and spine laminated (via contact paper) to protect
> them.
As far as the binding goes, both my SRI and SRII are fine -- it's the
covers I hate; they get all pebbly...
> Sample adventure. I don't know how many times I've wished to have had a
> sample adventure in the main book I coul look at, just for reference, if
> nothing else.
But better than the food fight...
> Allergies. Nuisance allergies shouldn't give any bonuses at all, and the
> allergies rule needs to be better described. As it is, it is *totally*
> vague and *very* open to abuse by munchy players (voice of experience
> here, having seen players create characters with something like 20+ extra
> attribute points with nothing except nuisance allergies - and no, they
> didn't tell me first).
Heartily seconded. More variety to them, too: allergies to animal fur,
cotton clothing, CRT emissions...
> What does all this stuff look like? We've got pics for heavy pistols,
> HMGs, and ligt pistols, but what about everything else? Just how big *is*
> an assault cannon, anyway?
Perhaps just reformating everything into an Uber-Tech sourcebook...
Glossies and full-page description of every piece of cyber/bio/nanoware
ever presented in SR...
> Negotiation, Etiquette, Languages, et al. Put the rules for social skills
> in a more prominent fashion. Don't toss them in the miscellaneous
> section, make sure to emphasive that SR isn't just about blowing things
> up.
> Encumbrance rules. ditto. Might put these as guidelines in the character
> creation section, it avoids things like characters lugging around 100kg
> of C-12 at a time.
Or under an explanation of the Strength attribute... Though they were
revamped in FoF, iirc, they are in Basic Black -- 5kg/point of Strength,
I think.
> Maps. Lots of people want more of a map, I'd wouldn't be against it
> myself. I'm curious to see just where the Heavenherders founded Azania
> and all:)
Ugh, no. Maybe a worldmap (though I thought I heard Steve say it wasn't
likely).
> Intro fiction. I think Plus ca Change was a good story, because it
> involved most of the major archetypes and it wasn't very hard to figure
> out what Nameless and company were.
A /better/ story this time. (g)
> Define 'cyberpunk'. Very few people who will pick up this game *really*
> know what it means. And define by example. Not everyone necessarily
> connects written definitions with words when they use them. I, for one,
> tend to connect abstract concepts to them instead.
'Tis to laugh. Shadowrun isn't cyberpunk anymore; I'm not quite sure it
ever was. Not to mention that cyberpunk's been mostly co-opted...
> Tables. The copy of Aerotech I have from - whew! - too long ago (8th or
> 9th grade, anyway) had all the tables in two different places, on the
> back cover and right next to the fighter sheets. You could barely read
> them, but they were there.
I'd prefer grouping everything together in the back, forget about
duplicating it in the text - the range chart in the firearms section
always bothered me because it's not complete enough to rely on.
> Character Sheets. I don't know anyone who *wants* to fold their book
> cover flat to make copies of the character sheet, at least not when the
> book is that big. Could you make them perforated or something? Not
> necessarily removable, but perhaps more accessible. Especially for the
> hardcover (that I have *got* to get:)
Probably need to up it to three or four different character sheets,
alas.
> Computer Theory - What's it do?
I'd like to see the "Physical Sciences" skill fleshed out to three or
four different skills...
> Could we at least get basic rules for modifying vehicles in SR3? Things
> like adding on firmpoints and hardpoints, etc. (How *do* you disguise a
> hardpoint - mounted LMG on a Westwind?)
Steve did say it would include parts of Rigger's 2.0. Hopefully not
enough of it to make it obsolete... I'd like to think FASA knows enough
of marketing to realize that :)
-Matt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 02:56:07 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Fortune Tellers
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
---Justin Pinnow wrote:
<snip>
> Now, I could just say that she is very expensive. That in itself
would
> limit access to her. I could even give her an eclectic schedule, so
> finding her when she is in isn't always easy. However, I don't want
to cop
> out and just have her charge money. Any ideas on what else she may
expect
> for payment besides nu yen?
I would keep with her eccentricy and the exotic feel. Don't have a set
fee for a reading, rather the one who approaches her must offer
something of his own accord. It would be understood among the circles
that she keeps that the offer must be a sacrifice to the person. If
they have not given something of themselves, the reading is not
personal to them. In other words, 50¥ may really hurt for a homeless
squatter to part with. However a hi-level V.P. with Yamtetsu probably
wouldn't squirm at coffing up 50,000¥ for a reading from your fortune
teller. Payments from clientelle like Mr. Johnson will probably come
more as favors, information, rare and unique gems and antiques,
quasi-mythological foci, and other imaginations.
This also leaves the runners area to squirm as they wonder what the
least they can get away with is, without insulting Madame Tarot
Reader. Meaning more fun for the GM. :o)
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:40:10 +0200
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Dion Scher <Dscher@****.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: MANA vs PHYSICAL spell
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>>The advantages of Mana spells is that the target resists with
willpower, which in most cases is low. If you're facing a troll toss
the mana spell at him, cuz the physical spell will probably bounce
off. FYI, a fun GM trick is to make a troll PA initiate with
shielding :)<<
Thanks for the reply, but I the responses are missing my question. I'm NOT asking whats
the advantage of a ManaMissile but what's the DISADVANTAGE of a MANAmissile. Why would I
bother, as a mage, to learn powermissile when I could learn ManaMissile. Statistically
speaking, I will have a better chance of combatting enemies with ManaMissile. So why
bother with PowerMissile?
I hope this clears up my question.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 06:48:44 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Andrew H <adh8@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: shotguns and silencers
Mime-Version: 1.0
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First of all, let's be clear on the basic design of silencers/sound
suppressors. Generally, it is a big fat cylinder that you attach to the end
of your closed chamber weapon [ie, revolvers can't be easily silenced] that
contains a number of baffles and absorbant muffles that trap and slow the
jet of gas that erupts from the muzzle. It is this gas which is pushing the
bullet, slug or mass of buckshot forward that possesses all the energy
which can be translated into a *bang*. By compartamentalizing and slowing
this gas, the noise of a gun can be muffled.
Now shotguns, being the ever popular and noisy urban fighting weapons that
they are, seem the prime target for silencing. Bottom line is: with solid
slug rounds, you can do the sound suppressor thing. You can't silence
buckshot because it spreads too much and doesn't maintain the seal needed
as the round travels through the supressor. Even if it did seal the
suppressor, the baffles would get torn up pretty quick, reducing the
suppressor's life rapidly.
The gout of flame and hot gas coming out of a shotgun's business end is
formidable. If you've ever seen a shotgun fired in darkness, you'd see that
the ball of flames is rather large. For this reason, I'd argue against
being able to fire the shotgun in burst or auto fire, just because the
supressor would not be able to handle that much stress at once.
Speaking of size, the size of a shotgun suppessor would be rather
formidable too. Think about a foot or so off the fat end of a softball bat
[maybe more] screwed onto the muzzle. Think no more concealability. It's a
hell of an intimidating sight though. Shotguns are pretty evil looking to
begin with; this should make chrome-boys scream.
Despite all this technical feasiblity, sound suppressed shotguns are
simply crazy. For practical application, the urban soldier should stick to
the silenced pistol or SMG. Shotguns are not subtle weapons, trying to
silence one goes against the whole premise of the weapon. It is simply an
act of monkeying with the rules, min-maxing, munchkin-ism or rules-abusing,
whatever you call it. I'm absolutely certain too, that the cops would come
down pretty hard on this brand of modification ["It's a sporting
modification, really officer!"]. If your PC's press you, let 'em do it, but
give them funny looks. Then give the opposition full-auto shotguns.
Andrew
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Huang '99 A&S Biology
adh8@*******.edu
"If you want to force your visitors to go out to lunch while your page
loads, fill it full of 8-bit dithered GIFS in the foreground, and don't
forget an enormous high-quality JPEG in the background."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:51:28 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
In-Reply-To: <19970706092908.14875.rocketmail@*****.rocketmail.com>
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Loki said on 2:29/ 6 Jul 97...
> Anyways, how does such a rule apply to spell casting since a skill
> isn't directly involved in the roll? Is it 1's equal to or greater
> than the force of the spell means an oops? This means force 1 spells
> are rather touchy. Is it equal to or greater than Sorcery? This means
> someone with a Sorcery skill of 6 that's rolling five dice or less
> from spell force and pool can never screw it up.
>
> We finally ruled that 1's equal to or greater than Sorcery -OR- all
> dice coming up 1's, whichever is lower, means the spell caster flubbed
> it.
That sounds like a good enough compromise. If you were to base it on the
spell's Force, then even the world's greatest spellcasters would have a
major chance of a fumble when casting low-Force spells, while avoiding
fumbles should be based on skill -- someone who doesn't know what he or
she is doing has a much greater chance of messing up big-time than someone
who's done the same thing a million times before.
OTOH this does mean that if you cast a spell with less dice than your
skill level you never ever mess up. Since spellcasting is supposed to be
more of an art than a science, that doesn't feel right either. In short,
I'd base it on the Sorcery skill, but let all ones take precedence, like
you suggest.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:19:52 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: SR3 & Valid Topics
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Matb once dared to write,
>On a completely non-related issue -- First Ed was Big Blue; Second Ed
>was Big Black -- what color will Third Ed be? (Big Brown?)
Now that would be ugly. Black has the best impact for the cover.
>I could possibly see a boxed set with one basic rules booklet and one
>equipment booklet (as well as magic booklet and matrix booklet) <==
>crappy idea. Scrap it.
Thank you.
>I *would* like to see better descriptions of the Basic Tech (especially
>Wired Reflexes!) offered, something along the lines of the Shadowtech
>descriptions. Revise the Body Index rules, and perhaps inject some
>crossover items (Bone Lacing, in my mind, should have both a BI rating
>and cost Essence).
Not that much of a description. Don't forget that Cybertechnology
does pick up some of the slack.
>On a nearly-related thread, one way to end the problem of characters
>starting out with the magnatech items is simply not to have any items in
>the Basic Bxxx with an Availability over 6....
I have problems with that fast rule. I can't agree with it. Maybe
some other way perhaps.
>I'd drop the optional metatypes altogether, revamp the Flaws so as to
>eliminate the hosers (Lightning Reflexes, Magic Invulnerability...)
Since those are options from the Companion, that's where they should
stay. This is about the CORE RULES, not what to do to the entire system
or how to make the book over a thousand pages. Please let's keep ideas
relavant to what's in the main rule book already and anything else that
HAS to be in there. If it's in another book, then you should ask yourself
if there is something wrong with an existing rule where it is at.
Optional and additional rules are fine where they are at. Anything that
need to cover or CORRECT the main book should be there. Rules for
handling Stealth and the expanded Threat ratings are two examples of what
should be in the book. Metavarients and Edges & Flaws are fine where they
are at.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:43:51 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: [SR3] Magical Magic
OK, I'm getting some good feedback. Here's Survey Question #3...
One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more of a
mystical/magical feel to it than it does now." I'm curious about the idea,
since I don't quite understand it. Since SR magic is currently (IMHO) based
on about 80% real-world magic theory and 20% fantasy magic (fireballs and
such) it feels pretty "mystical" to me. I'd like some feedback on the issue.
Is SR magic "magical" enough? If not, how could it be better?
The one caveat I will have to put in is please, please don't tell me "the
magic system should be more like Ars Magica, or Mage, or Earthdawn..." or any
other role-playing game. The basic concepts of SR magic aren't going to
change, but we might be able to fix some of the "feel" of it.
Steve K.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:00:45 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Organization: University of Innsbruck, Austria
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells -- Level 6?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970704124452.006cb228@****.lis.ab.ca>
> This is my biggest pet peeve, and I'm in the middle of writing an article
> about it for TSS. Characters will 4 or 5 skills/spells at 6, and nothing
> lower.
the reason for combat spells exclusively at level 6 is obvious...
since their level is the target number for defending against them...
So there is absolutely nothing that could be done about it...
wait..
Maybe setting the maximum rating for attributes, spells and skills
to level 5 instead of 6... But I guess that would be too complicated,
and a too radical change...
> I know that everyone wants to make a character that is going to
> survive a few encounters, and I can respect that. However, some people
> have the attitude that 'If its not useful in extremely obvious ways, its
> useless'. The street sammy with Firearms, Street Eti, Stealth, and Armed
> Combat, all at 6, and nothing else. Is he so good at all of that, and so
> bad at everything else that it doesn't rate?
> -Aj
Hmm.. I see no reason to have skills only at level 6 since they don't
influence a target number... Sure, you'll save a bit karma if you
start with level 6 skills and learn the ones at lower level later,
but I always thought I was the only one who had noticed...
ss
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:03:31 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: MANA vs PHYSICAL spell
In-Reply-To: <199707071032.EAA25316@******> from "Dion Scher" at Jul 4,
97 08:40:10 am
Content-Type: text
Dion Scher wrote:
|
| >>The advantages of Mana spells is that the target resists with
| willpower, which in most cases is low. If you're facing a troll toss
| the mana spell at him, cuz the physical spell will probably bounce
| off. FYI, a fun GM trick is to make a troll PA initiate with
| shielding :)<<
|
| Thanks for the reply, but I the responses are missing my question.
I'm NOT asking whats the advantage of a ManaMissile but what's the
DISADVANTAGE of a MANAmissile. Why would I bother, as a mage, to
learn powermissile when I could learn ManaMissile. Stati| stically
speaking, I will have a better chance of combatting enemies with
ManaMissile. So why bother with PowerMissile? |
Oh. Well, the only reason I can think of to take a Power type combat
spell is for those magician targets (they generally have a lower Body
than Willpower). It depends on how many magicians your GM is going
to throw at you (and you never know untill its too late :). However,
later on in the campaign when your target is an initiate magician
with Shielding then it really doesn't make much difference whether
you cast ManaMissile or PowerMissile.
So, the best thing for a Magician to do is learn ManaMissile and
carry an Ares Predator :)
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink! - The sound of a crescent roll being stolen.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:08:48 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Skill Limits
In-Reply-To: <199707070723.BAA24191@******> from "Matb" at Jul 6,
97 03:23:26 am
Content-Type: text
Matb wrote:
|
| > Try this. Starting characters may have 1 skill at 6, 2 at 5, 4 at 4, 6 at
| > 3, and so on. If multiples of 2 don't work use multiples of 3
| > (1,3,6,9,12,15). Or you could use powers of 2 (1,2,4,8,16,32) or 3
| > (1,3,9,27..), whatever works best for your campaign.
|
| Sounds a little like Vampire... do you have similar pyramids for the
| different priority levels?
Nope. The priorities are fine the way they are.
| I fully admit the slanted-skill characters are definitely a problem, I'm
| just not sure this is the solution :)
Just an idea :) Another one that's come up before is to just flat
out not allow skill levels higher than 4 (or whatever number you
want). Did anyone ever try this to see how it worked?
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink! - The sound of a crescent roll being stolen.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:24 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Tables (was Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!)
In-Reply-To: <33BF765B.5F81@**.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Matb said on 3:41/ 6 Jul 97...
> > Tables.
>
> I'd prefer grouping everything together in the back, forget about
> duplicating it in the text - the range chart in the firearms section
> always bothered me because it's not complete enough to rely on.
Having the tables in the text makes them much easier to refer to while
reading a rule than when they're only in the back of the book. Doing it
like VR 2.0 did and putting the important tables in the back as well as in
the main text would be best for any rulebook, IMHO.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:25 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties
In-Reply-To: <199707070411.AAA01316@*********.mindspring.com>
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MC23 said on 0:10/ 7 Jul 97...
> What do you think Strain is? If you like, you can consider Thread
> Weaving a centering skill. Now if you follow the guideline that practiced
> continual shared belief shapes magic then to get the adepts you speak of
> would take a tightly focused dedication followed over generations to
> achieve. We have no worries of this coming to pass in the Shadowrun time
> line we play in.
But perhaps we can say to our grandchildren "I can remember when the only
magic you could use in SR was raw magic... What edition is out now anyway?
57th, 'Pink Book With Blue Spots And Yellow Stars'? Oh my, the game's come
a long way, hasn't it...?" :)
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:24 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: MANA vs PHYSICAL spell
In-Reply-To: <s3bcb6fd.042@****.co.za>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dion Scher said on 8:40/ 4 Jul 97...
> Thanks for the reply, but I the responses are missing my question. I'm
> NOT asking whats the advantage of a ManaMissile but what's the
> DISADVANTAGE of a MANAmissile. Why would I bother, as a mage, to >
First, press enter at the end of each line, that stops your posts from
showing up as one long line of text. Anyway, to answer the question: power
missile has the advantage of being able to hit inanimate targets. Since
most people will have a Body equally high or higher than their Willpower,
with the exception of many (human, dwarven, elven) magicians, power
missile isn't very useful against them, but if you have to break down a
door, casting mana missile even at force 50 won't help in any way
whatsoever.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:24 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: shotguns and silencers
In-Reply-To: <009B6DD7.89599F60.54@******.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PR said on 20:56/ 6 Jul 97...
> had a bit of a problem in my last gaming session. a player bought a
> mossberg CMDT and equipped it with a Imp. gasvent IV. i disagreed with this
> player, with the thought that niether silencers nor gasvents which are placed
> on the ends of the barrels, could withstand the force of the exiting round of
> a shotgun. however, i cannot find the ruling in the books to back my airy
> statement. any help would be appreciated.
SR doesn't differentiate between weapons, and I find it unlikely a muzzle
brake (gas vent in SR terms) _wouldn't_ work on a shotgun. They work fine
on weapons ranging from pistols to artillery pieces, so why not on a 12
gauge shotgun? The only problem there is with gas venting a shotgun (IRL)
is that shot will likely be caught in the gas vent.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:24 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties
In-Reply-To: <009B6DC4.5F10B620.26@******.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PR said on 18:39/ 6 Jul 97...
> actually, i _think_ only the elves of tir na nog, which is either the physical
> location of the bloodwood
I didn't know Ireland was in the Ukrain... :)
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:25 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Barrier Rating Rules part 1
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In the following posts is the Barrier Rating interpretations text, minus
the Source part of the tables (listing which books the various attacks
types come from), because they won't fit on the line :(
------------------
THE ULTIMATE (?) SHADOWRUN BARRIER RULES INTERPRETATION<
by Damion Milliken <milko@*ow.edu.au> and Gurth <gurth@******.nl>, with
some input from Vince Pellerin
Throughout these rules, unless otherwise stated, roundings are to be made
down, and performed after all calculations have been completed. Thus, 9 -
5.5 + 2 would equal 5.5, rounding down to 5, NOT 9 - 5 + 2 = 6, rounding
down the 5.5.
BARRIER RATINGS
---------------
These rules replace the Barrier Rating rules found on page 98 of SRII. They
are actually extrapolated house rules that are based upon many hours of
research through, and deliberation on, the SRII rules.
There are two Effective Barrier Ratings. The first, the Damage Barrier
Rating is for damaging the barrier (AKA "Break Through"). The Penetration
Barrier Rating is used for penetrating the barrier (AKA "Firing Through").
Both of these Effective Barrier Ratings can be calculated from the base
Barrier Rating, and the type of attack, as per the table below.
AMMUNITION/ATTACK DAMAGE BARRIER PENETRATION BARRIER
RATING RATING
APDS ammo Barrier Rating x 3 (1) Barrier Rating / 2
Armor-Piercing Anti-
Vehicle Weapons Barrier Rating x 3 (1) Barrier Rating / 2
Blasts Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Blunt melee weapons Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Cannon rounds (2) Barrier Rating / 2 Barrier Rating x 2
Combat spells Barrier Rating x 2 -- (3)
Damaging Manipulation
spells Barrier Rating Barrier Rating
Explosive ammo Barrier Rating / 2 Barrier Rating x 2
Flechette ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating x 2
Gel (Stun) ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Needle ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating (4)
Regular ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Sharp melee weapons Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating x 2
Shot shotgun rounds Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating x 2
NET.SOURCEBOOKS
#000 Triplex ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating x 2
Acid ammo Barrier Rating (5) Barrier Rating x 2
AP Flechette ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
APFSDS shotgun ammo Barrier Rating x 3 Barrier Rating / 2
API ammo Barrier Rating x 3 Barrier Rating / 2
Armor Piercing ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating - 2
Depleted Uranium ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Dual Purpose ammo Barrier Rating Barrier Rating
Duplex ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
EHI cannon ammo Barrier Rating Barrier Rating
Firepower ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Frag. Flechette ammo Barrier Rating Barrier Rating x 2
Flare shotgun ammo Barrier Rating x 2 --
Flash shotgun ammo Barrier Rating x 2 --
Gas shotgun ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Glaser ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating x 4
HE shotgun ammo Barrier Rating / 2 Barrier Rating x 2
HEAP ammo Barrier Rating / 2 Barrier Rating
HEAT shotgun ammo Barrier Rating / 2 Barrier Rating
HEP ammo Barrier Rating / 2 Barrier Rating x 2
HESH ammo Barrier Rating Barrier Rating x 2
Hollow Point ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating + 2
Incendiary ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating + 2
LAPHE ammo Barrier Rating x 1.5 Barrier Rating
Multi-flechette ammo Barrier Rating x 3 Barrier Rating / 2 (6)
Ramjet ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Rubber Bullets Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Safety Rounds Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating (6)
Silver ammo Barrier Rating x 3 Barrier Rating x 2
Smoke shotgun ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Stinger shotgun ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Stundart ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Teflon coating Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Tungsten ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
NOTES
(1) This is a house rule to make APDS and armor-piercing weapons (such as
many anti-vehicle weapons) less damaging to barriers, due to their higher
armor piercing ability than regular rounds and weapons. The SRII rule is to
use the Barrier Rating x 2.
(2) SRII does not specifically say so, but these are treated here as
explosive rounds.
(3) Combat spells cannot hit someone on the other side of a barrier they
are attacking, unless they are an area of affect physical combat spell.
(4) Will not penetrate an unmodified Barrier Rating of 3 or higher.
(5) If the Power Level exceeds twice the Damage Barrier Rating, the
Barrier Rating goes down by 1 in addition to any normal reductions.
(6) Will not penetrate an unmodified Barrier Rating of 4 or higher.
The Damage Barrier Rating is calculated and then compared to the Power
Level of the attack. There are three possibilities, per the Barrier Effects
Table on page 98, SRII:
a) the Power Level is smaller than one-half the Damage Barrier Rating. In
this nothing happens except for some chips and scratches to the
barrier.
b) the Power Level is less than, or equal to, the Damage Barrier Rating.
The Barrier Rating (not the Damage Barrier Rating) is reduced by 1.
c) the Power Level is larger than the Damage Barrier Rating. Subtract the
Damage Barrier Rating from the Power Level, multiply by 2, divide by the
Barrier Rating, and round up. Reduce the Barrier Rating by this number,
and a hole is made, with a width in meters equal to one-half this number
(do not round).
Any spells that have particular effects are to be used as per their
individual descriptions, with the Barrier Rating referred to in the
description being equal to the actual Barrier Rating of the barrier, not
the Damage Barrier Rating as calculated above.
Example A1: Carmen aims her Ares Predator at BlackFire, who's behind an
armored glass wall (Barrier Rating 4). The Predator does 9M damage, and
Carmen has loaded it with regular rounds. From the table, the Damage
Barrier Rating against regular ammo is equal to the Barrier Rating x 2,
which makes it 8 in this case. The Power Level of 9 exceeds this, so the
Barrier Rating is reduced by 1 (to 3) and a 50 cm diameter hole is made in
the glass.
Example B1: Edward comes under fire from a security guard and ducks behind
a concrete wall. The wall has a Barrier Rating of 20, and the guard is
firing explosive ammo from his AK-97 assault rifle. The Damage Barrier
Rating is halved against explosive rounds, making it 10. The weapon's Power
Level is 9, which is less than the Damage Barrier Rating, but more than
one-half the Damage Barrier Rating, so the Barrier Rating is reduced by 1.
Example C1: Cindy casts a Force 6 Power Bolt spell at a locked door, which
has a Barrier Rating of 3. This is doubled to 6 for combat spells like
Power Bolt, making that the Power Level of the spell (i.e. its Force) is
equal to the Damage Barrier Rating: the spell reduces the Barrier Rating of
the door by 1, to 2.
Example D1: Foobar takes his Panther Assault Cannon and fires it at an
interior wall in an office. Notoriously flimsy, this has a Barrier Rating
of 2. Against assault cannon rounds, the Damage Barrier Rating is equal to
the Barrier Rating / 2, in this case making it 1. The Power Level of 18 is
surely more than the Damage Barrier Rating, which means it opens a hole in
the wall. The hole's size is .5 meters for every increment equal to half
the base Barrier Rating that the Damage Barrier Rating is exceeded; the
difference between the Power Level and one-half the Barrier Rating is 18 -
(2/2) = 18 - 1 = 17. 17 x .5 meters = 8.5 meters, so a hole with a
diameter of 8.5 meters is blown in the wall, and the Barrier Rating is also
reduced by 17. Since that would make it -15, the Barrier Rating drops to 0.
For burst attacks containing more than a single round, there are three
alternative methods of calculating the damage to the barrier, with method a
being recommended:
a) Simple, Shadowrun method: the Power Level of the attack, modified for
the burst, is compared to the Damage Barrier Rating to determine the loss
of Barrier Rating. The comparison is only made once.
b) Simple, SRII Errata method: compare the Power Level of the attack,
without modifying it for the burst, to the Damage Barrier Rating to
determine the loss of Barrier Rating. The comparison is only made once.
c) More realistic, but time consuming method: the calculation is performed
for each round in a burst, with reductions in the Barrier Rating of the
barrier being taken into account between each bullet.
PENETRATING THE BARRIER
If the attack was actually aimed at a target on the other side of the
barrier, then the Penetration Barrier Rating comes into play (in such a
case, this calculation is probably better off being carried out first). It
should be noted that both these effects are occurring simultaneously, and
that reductions to the Barrier Rating caused by the passage of a round do
not affect the Barrier Rating used to calculate the Penetration Barrier
Rating.
The Penetration Barrier Rating is subtracted from the Power Level of the
attack to determine the Effective Power Level of the attack. If the
Effective Power Level is zero or negative, then the round is stopped cold,
else targets on the other side of the barrier must resist an attack with a
Power Level equal to the Effective Power Level.
Example A2: Carmen's shot may now penetrate the armored glass. The
Penetration Barrier Rating against regular ammo is 4 (equal to the base
Barrier Rating), which is subtracted from the Power Level of the round. The
9M round is thereby reduced to 5M when it hits BlackFire. Keep in mind that
the reduction in Barrier Rating, that also resulted from the same shot,
doesn't apply just yet. If Carmen fires through the glass again, _that_
shot will face the reduced Barrier Rating of 3, however.
Example B2: With the explosive round from the guard's AK-97, the
Penetration Barrier Rating is equal to the Barrier Rating x 2, which makes
it 40 in this case. The Power Level is only 9, stopping the round dead in
the wall. Conclusion: explosive ammo is great for breaking down barriers,
but not for firing at targets on the other side.
Example C2: Cindy was casting a non-area of affect Combat spell, which
cannot hit anyone out of sight of the magician. Even if there is someone
on the other side of the door, he or she won't be hit.
Example D2: Like Cindy, Foobar aimed his cannon at the barrier, not at
someone behind it. However, for the sake of argument let's assume some
office worker happened to stand in direct line with Foobar's shot. The
Barrier Rating is doubled to find the Penetration Barrier Rating against
assault cannon rounds, so it becomes 4. The poor wageslave still faces 14D
damage from the cannon...
Resolving the affects of burst attacks on targets on the other side of
barriers will depend upon the method used above to determine the damage to
the barrier:
a) Simple, Shadowrun method: the Effective Power Level is merely equal to
the Power Level, modified for the burst, minus the Penetration Barrier
Rating.
b) Simple, SRII Errata method: the Effective Power Level is merely equal to
the Power Level, without modifying it for the burst, minus the Penetration
Barrier Rating. Burst modifiers are applied after calculation of the
Effective Power Level and determination of actualy penetration
c) More realistic, but time consuming method: when firing a burst at a
target on the other side of a barrier, it is possible that each round in
the burst will have a different Power Level after penetrating the barrier:
For example, an SMG (7M) firing at a target on the other side of a Barrier
Rating 7 barrier, using regular ammo:
Round 1: Stopped cold
Round 2: 1M
Round 3: 2M
Round 4: 3M
Round 5: 4M
Round 6: 5M
Round 7: 7M
Round 8: 7M
Round 9: 7M
For the purposes of calculating the final damage code, there are three
different options, the first being the recommended one:
1) Average the Power Levels of the penetrating rounds (rounding down) and
then apply the burst modifier to this. In the above example, the average
Power Level is (1+2+3+4+5+7+7+7)/8 = 4, and 8 rounds hit the target. Thus
the final damage code is 12D.
2) Take the highest Power Level and then apply the burst modifier to this.
In the above example, the highest Power Level is 7, and 8 rounds hit the
target. Thus the final damage code is 15D.
3) Take the lowest penetrating Power Level and then apply the burst
modifier to this. In the above example, the lowest Power Level is 1, and 8
rounds hit the target. Thus the final damage code is 9D.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:25 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
In-Reply-To: <yam7127.1851.136869856@****.amigaworld.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Barbie said on 9:08/ 7 Jul 97...
> At 05-Jul-97 wrote Gurth:
>
> >Anyway, seeing that Cybertechnology gives a 50x multiplier to the costs,
> >that still makes drastic invasive alpha grade surgery cost 12.5 million,
> >and puts it out of the reach of just about everyone.
>
> Hmmm.........12.5million?
> I can`t follow you here.
> My calculations lead me to 45.500 for standard
> 2.275mega and 9.1mega for alpha/delta hospitalizion costs.
> And thats for the worst case of no body successes.
Sorry, but what on earth are you talking about? Drastic invasive surgery
costs 250,000 nuyen for the surgery itself (Medical Costs Table,
Cybertechnology page 53). Alpha- and beta-grade cyberware multiply that by
50, so it becomes 12,500,000 nuyen for the surgery. I didn't mention
recovery costs at all, but figuring those in (hospitalization with no Body
successes at all, so the recovery time is 61 days), I get the following
costs:
Surgery + Recovery = Total
Standard 250,000 30,500 280,500
Alpha 12,500,000 1,525,000 14,025,000
Beta 12,500,000 1,525,000 14,025,000
Delta 50,000,000 6,100,000 56,100,000
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:25 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Barrier rules
In-Reply-To: <19970706221943.7083.rocketmail@*****.rocketmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Loki said on 15:19/ 6 Jul 97...
> I don't know if anyone has mentioned this for S/R III, but I'd
> personally like some retouching on the barrier rules.
As I've mentioned before, Damion Milliken and I worked up what we feel is
a good, workable interpretation of the barrier rules; I wanted to post it
here but I ran into some problems (Pegasus reformats line breaks so the
tables get messed up, and it's too long for a single message :/ ) which
means I'll have to mess round a bit until it fits.
I'll also send it to Paolo for inclusion in the SR archive.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:12:27 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: [OT] Manana
In-Reply-To: <199707070704.BAA24126@******> from "Loki" at Jul 7,
97 00:03:13 am
Content-Type: text
Loki wrote:
|
| I remember the time a shaman in my original group oops'd when casting
| Mana Missle at a security guard. I informed him he stammered in
| casting the spell and it came out <spanish> Manana </spanish>
| Missle...but not to worry since the spell would hit him tomorrow. :o)
... ow.
:)
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink! - The sound of a crescent roll being stolen.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:16:39 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Organization: University of Innsbruck, Austria
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells -- Level 6?
In-Reply-To: <4201.199707042121@******.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>
Spike said:
> I don't blame you. My personal rule on buying spells is 4 or 5 for a few
> combat spells, 1 for health spells, and 2 or 3 for various others.
>
> The only spells I'd go the full six on are threshold spells, like control
> thoughts or control actions....
>
> I like having a lot of different spells, as opposed to being BAMBAM.....
Then you are one of the rare exceptions. The character you describe
would be considerably less powerful than one with spells at level 6.
if you don't mind, fine. But most players do.
ss
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:24 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Barrier Rating Rules part 2
MIME-Version: 1.0
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VEHICLE ARMOR
-------------
Determine the damage to the vehicle, by first using the penetrating rules
(Penetration Barrier Rating) to see if the attack penetrates the vehicle's
armor. For this, we use the following table.
AMMUNITION/ATTACK EFFECTIVE VEHICLE ARMOR RATING SOURCE
APDS ammo Vehicle Armor Rating / 2 SRII + house rule
Armor-Piercing Anti-
Vehicle Weapons Vehicle Armor Rating / 2 SRII + house rule
Blasts Vehicle Armor Rating SRII
Blunt melee weapons Vehicle Armor Rating SRII
Cannon rounds Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 SRII (1)
Combat spells -- (2) SRII
Damaging Manipulation
spells Vehicle Armor Rating SRII
Explosive ammo Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 SRII
Flechette ammo Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 SRII
Gel (Stun) ammo Vehicle Armor Rating SRII
Needle ammo Vehicle Armor Rating (3) NAGRL
Regular ammo Vehicle Armor Rating SRII
Sharp melee weapons Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 SRII
Shot shotgun rounds Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 SRII
NET.SOURCEBOOKS
#000 Triplex ammo Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 Chromebook 2
Acid ammo Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 Chromebook 1
AP Flechette ammo Vehicle Armor Rating NERPS:ShadowLore
APFSDS shotgun ammo Vehicle Armor Rating / 2 BSW 2058
API ammo Vehicle Armor Rating / 2 Chromebook 1 & 2
Armor Piercing ammo Vehicle Armor Rating - 2 NERPS:ShadowLore
Depleted Uranium ammo Vehicle Armor Rating NERPS:ShadowLore
Dual Purpose ammo Vehicle Armor Rating Chromebook 2
Duplex ammo Vehicle Armor Rating Running Gear
EHI cannon ammo Vehicle Armor Rating Chromebook 2
Firepower ammo Vehicle Armor Rating SSC/Running Gear
Frag. Flechette ammo Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 Chromebook 2
Flare shotgun ammo -- Chromebook 2
Flash shotgun ammo -- Chromebook 2
Gas shotgun ammo Vehicle Armor Rating Chromebook 2
Glaser ammo Vehicle Armor Rating x 4 Running Gear
HE shotgun ammo Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 BSW 2058
HEAP ammo Vehicle Armor Rating NERPS:ShadowLore
HEAT shotgun ammo Vehicle Armor Rating BSW 2058
HEP ammo Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 Chromebook 1
HESH ammo Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 SWO Guns
Hollow Point ammo Vehicle Armor Rating + 2 NERPS:ShadowLore
Incendiary ammo Vehicle Armor Rating + 2 NERPS:Shadowlore
LAPHE ammo Vehicle Armor Rating Chromebook 2
Multi-flechette ammo Vehicle Armor Rating / 2 (4) Chromebook 1
Ramjet ammo Vehicle Armor Rating Chromebook 2
Rubber Bullets Vehicle Armor Rating Chromebook 2
Safety Rounds Vehicle Armor Rating (4) BSW 2058
Silver ammo Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 NERPS:ShadowLore
Smoke shotgun ammo Vehicle Armor Rating Chromebook 2
Stinger shotgun ammo Vehicle Armor Rating Chromebook 2
Stundart ammo Vehicle Armor Rating Chromebook 1
Teflon coating Vehicle Armor Rating NERPS:ShadowLore
Tungsten ammo Vehicle Armor Rating NERPS:ShadowLore
NOTES
(1) SRII does not specifically say so, but these are treated here as
explosive rounds.
(2) Combat spells resolve their affects on vehicles per the rules on page
109 of SRII.
(3) Will not penetrate an unmodified Vehicle Armor Rating of 3 or higher.
(4) Will not penetrate an unmodified Vehicle Armor Rating of 4 or higher.
Example D3: Foobar is outside the office, and turns his Panther against a
Chrysler-Nissan Patrol-One that is bringing in some reinforcements to stop
him. The Patrol-One has an Armor rating of 6, which is doubled against the
assault cannon, to make it 12. The Power Level of the cannon is 18, so it
can penetrate the armor.
The vehicle must resist an attack with an Effective Power Level = Power
Level - Effective Vehicle Armor Rating. If the Effective Power Level is
zero or less then the attack fails to penetrate the vehicle armor. If the
Effective Power Level is positive, then the vehicle must resist the damage.
However, the vehicle gets its Body Attribute as composite armor, and so may
subtract its Body Attribute from the Effective Power Level of the attack
(minimum of 2, as per normal Shadowrun armor rules). However, if the attack
is from an armor-piercing weapon or APDS ammunition, then the vehicle may
only subtract it's Body/2 at this stage.
The Damage Level of the attack is one less than the originating Damage
Level, except in the case of anti-vehicle weapons. For these weapons, the
Damage Level is not reduced.
The vehicle rolls (as always) Body+(Armor/2) to resist the damage.
Example D4: Foobar hits the Patrol-One. The vehicle has to resist 3S damage
from the shot: the Power Level is reduced by the Effective Vehicle Armor
Rating, from 18 to 6, and then another 3 points are subtracted because the
car's Body is 3; because the Panther cannon isn't a specific anti-vehicle
weapon its Damage Level is reduced by one category, from D to S. The
vehicle now gets its 3 Body dice and one-half its Armor dice to resist the
attack: a total of 6 dice against a target number 3.
Vehicle armor does not degrade or get reduced as per the Damage Barrier
Rating rules, however. It will suffer degradation by the armor degradation
rules outlined below.
There are also alternative, by the book, interpretations of the vehicle
armor rules:
By The Book interpretation of the Vehicle Armor rules 1: use the rules as
above but instead of using the armor degradation rules outlined below,
apply the barrier degradation rules to vehicle armor as well. This is
accomplished by using the Damage Barrier Rating rules exactly as they are
above, with the Vehicle Armor Rating in place of the Barrier Rating. A
question that must to be answered by each individual gamemaster is whether
or not holes will be opened up in the vehicle's armor, as per the Damage
Barrier Rating rules, or whether the armor will just be degraded, but no
holes produced. Either way this results in vehicle armor rapidly degrading
in the face of attacks.
Example D4a: the Damage Barrier Rating is equal to the Vehicle Armor Rating
/ 2 against cannon rounds, so that becomes 3 (6 / 2). The Power Level of
the Panther cannon exceeds the Damage Barrier Rating, so the Vehicle Armor
Rating gets reduced. The reduction is 4: one-half the Vehicle Armor Rating
is 3, which fits four times into the difference between Power Level and
Barrier Rating. The Vehicle Armor Rating after the shot is 6 - 4 = 2.
Depending on whether the gamemaster rules that holes are opened in the
armor or not, a 2-meter hole could now be in the Patrol-One's side.
By The Book interpretation of the Vehicle Armor rules 2: for vehicle armor,
do not use either Damage Barrier Rating or Penetration Barrier Rating, but
simply subtract the Vehicle Armor Rating from the Power Level of the
attack. If the attack is from an armor-Piercing weapon or ammunition, then
subtract half the Vehicle Armor Rating (round down) from the Power Level of
the attack. If the Effective Power Level is then zero or negative, the
round bounces off the armor. If the Effective Power Level is greater than
zero, then the vehicle resists the damage (at the appropriately reduced
Damage Level), using its Body attribute as composite Ballistic and Impact
armor. APDS and armor-piercing weapons halve (round down) the Body
attribute of the vehicle for the purposes of this calculation. (The minimum
target number is 2.) The Damage Level of the attack is one less than the
original Damage Level, except in the case of anti-vehicle weapons. For
these weapons, the Damage Level is not reduced. This is simple and easy,
but not entirely satisfying.
Example D4b: The Panther cannon's Power Level is 18, minus the Vehicle
Armor Rating and Body, which results in an Effective Power Level of 18 - 6
- 3 = 9. The vehicle has to resist 9S damage.
CRITTER HARDENED ARMOR
----------------------
Treat it exactly the same as vehicle armor, i.e. using the Penetration
Barrier Rating rules. The critters Body is to be treated the same as a
vehicle's Body, and hardened armor the same as vehicle armor, except that
critter hardened armor does not degrade at all. However, at the
gamemaster's option, critter hardened armor may degrade as per the armor
degradation rules explained below.
Example E1: Bob finds himself on a boat in the North Atlantic, hunting
leviathan for sport with some way too rich guy (he wonders why he's doing
this, too). The employer, as eccentric as is to be expected, has decided to
use normal hunting rifles, which do 9S damage; the leviathan has 2 points
of hardened armor and a Body of 11. APDS ammo is used, which can easily
penetrate the armor rating of 2, so the leviathan now has to resist a
damage of 2M: base Power Level 9 - (Armor Rating 2)/2 - one-half Body 5.5 =
Power Level of 2.5, rounding to 2; the Damage Level is reduced by one to M.
For this Damage Resistance Test, the critter gets 12 dice: its Body plus
one-half its Armor.
PERSONAL HARDENED ARMOR
-----------------------
Treat it exactly the same as critter hardened armor, except that the
Body attribute of the person inside does not count as composite armor
and reduce the Effective Power Level, and the Damage Level of the attack is
never reduced by one category. The personal hardened armor will be
penetrated as per the Penetration Barrier Rating rules, and will degrade as
per the rules below. This rule only applies to personal hardened armor, and
not to normal personal armor.
Example A3: BlackFire shoots back at Carmen, who wears a light military
armor (ratings 10/7). BlackFire is packing serious firepower, namely a 14S
sniper rifle firing regular rounds. The Effective Power Level is 14 - 10 =
4, and so the damage Carmen has to resist is 4S. In addition, some armor
degradation will occur (see below). At some later stage, Carmen has
acquired a new set of light military armor, and one of BlackFire's buddies
shoots 10 regular rounds from his HK227 (7M damage each) at Carmen. Using
method A for resolving burst attacks, the Power Level of a single round is
less than the Ballistic rating of Carmen's armor, so all rounds simply
bounce off without causing any damage to her at all. However, the attack
may damage the armor itself (see below).
GEL PACKS
In addition to the rules as above, each time the armor is penetrated
(i.e. each attack that the person inside must resist with their Body), both
the Ballistic and Impact armor ratings are reduced by 1. This reduction is
not applied on a bullet by bullet basis, rather it is applied per attack
(i.e. a single burst, no matter how large, will only reduce the ratings by
1, not by 1 per bullet, assuming that it penetrates at all, of course). The
gel pack armor will also degrade by the degradation rules outlined below.
Example A4: Carmen shoots back at BlackFire's chummer, this time using her
M22-A2 firing regular rounds on full auto. She fires 6 rounds and hits,
causing 14D damage. The target is wearing an armor jacket with gel packs
(5/3 armor), but, again using method A, Carmen's rifle has a base Power
Level of 8, so it penetrates and the guy has to resist the damage. The gel
packs' efficiency is automatically reduced by 1 point, regardless of any
other reductions that may result from the burst.
ARMOR DEGRADATION
-----------------
This rule replaces the armor degradation rules on page 75 of Fields of
Fire, and it applies equally to personal non-hardened armor, gel pack
armor, personal hardened armor, and vehicle armor. It may also, at the
gamemaster's discretion, apply to critter hardened armor, and maybe even to
regular critter armor.
Armor degradation uses the Damage Barrier Rating rules, but with the
following modifications:
* Light Damage Code Weapons, Effective Armor Rating = (Ballistic + Impact)
x 8 * Moderate Damage Code Weapons, Effective Armor Rating = (Ballistic +
Impact) x 4 * Serious Damage Code Weapons, Effective Armor Rating =
(Ballistic + Impact) x 2 * Deadly Damage Code Weapons, Effective Armor
Rating = (Ballistic + Impact)
The Effective Armor Rating is then used in the place of the Barrier Rating
in the Damage Barrier Rating rules. I.e. a /2 modifier for explosive
rounds, a x3 modifier for APDS, and the other modifiers would also apply.
Also, no holes are created in the armor as a result of armor degradation.
Additionally, only articles listed as armor in the sourcebooks abide by
these rules -- other impediments to attacks, like a steel plate worn in
front of a character's chest, use the standard barrier rules.
For vehicle armor and critter hardened armor, use the armor rating in
place of the (Ballistic + Impact) sum above. Alternatively, twice the
armor rating may be used to represent the greater robustness of hardened
armors, and takes into account that they really have Ballistic and Impact
ratings equal to their single rating.
Example A5: BlackFire's chummer (we won't bother giving him a name because
he's not going to survive this example anyway) had to resist 14D damage,
minus his Ballistic armor of 5. The base Damage Code of the weapon is 8M,
though, so for purposes of armor degradation his Effective Armor Rating is
(Ballistic + Impact) x 4, which is (5 + 3) x 4 = 8 x 4 = 32. This is then
doubled because Carmen fires regular ammo, to 64. No matter which way you
look at it, Carmen's attack is not powerful enough to cause armor
degradation.
Example D5: Foobar and his assault cannon aim at one of the sec guards
crawling out of the Patrol-One after Foobar pumped a few more rounds into
it. He fires, and hits. The guard is wearing a vest with plates (4/3 armor)
and because of Foobar's cannon rounds doing a base of Deadly damage, his
Effective Armor Rating is 4 + 3 = 7. This is then /halved/ to 3.5 because
it's an assault cannon round... The Armor rating is reduced by (18 - 7) /
3.5 = 11 / 3.5 = 4 points.
There are three alternatives to assigning the degraded armor points, with
the first being the recommended method.
1) Split it equally between both ratings, with any odd point going to the
armor rating used to resist the attack.
Example D6a: Of the 4 points, 2 are taken from the Ballistic rating and 2
from the Impact rating: the reduction is distributed evenly, though if
there was a point left over it would come from the Ballistic rating because
that is used to resist damage from assault cannons. The new Armor ratings
are Ballistic 2, Impact 1.
2) Apply the full reduction to both armor ratings.
Example D6b: Both Ballistic and Impact ratings are reduced by 4, giving the
armor a 0/0 rating.
3) Apply the full reduction to the rating used to resist the attack.
Example D6c: Ballistic is used to resist damage from the cannon, so it is
reduced by 4 points. The new armor ratings are 0/3.
In the case of vehicle armor, the Damage Level used is the same one which
the vehicle resists, not the original Damage Level of the weapon. I.e. all
weapons except anti-vehicle weapons have their Damage Level reduced by one.
BARRIER RATINGS
---------------
For those gamemasters who wish for an additional level of selection and
fine tuning for Barrier Ratings, the original SRI Barrier Ratings are
transportable directly into SRII. The SRI Barrier Ratings are outlined
below:
Material Barrier Rating
Thin Normal Thick Reinforced
Wood 0 1 2 4
Armor Glass 1 2 4 8
Plywood 1 3 6 12
Construction Plastic 2 4 8 16
Impact Plastic 2 5 10 20
Steel Sheet 3 6 12 24
Ballistic Composite 3 7 14 28
Concrete 4 8 16 32
The SRII Barrier Ratings are:
Material Rating
Standard Glass 2
Cheap Material/Regular Tires 3
Average Material/Ballistic Glass 4
Heavy Material 6
Reinforced/Armored Glass 8
Structural Material 12
Heavy Structural Material 16
armored/Reinforced Material 24
Hardened Material 32
If the two sets of Barrier Ratings are compared, it can be seen that they
are actually very similar. The SRI Barrier Ratings are more specific and
explicit in what they assign, but they only assign values for a limited
selection of materials. The SRII Barrier Ratings appear to have tried to
correct this with general ratings, at the expense of including thicknesses
for the materials. It is possible to use the SRI Barrier Ratings as a guide
for specific materials.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:29:13 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Organization: University of Innsbruck, Austria
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
In-Reply-To: <970707084349_1859766765@*******.mail.aol.com>
> The one caveat I will have to put in is please, please don't tell me "the
> magic system should be more like Ars Magica, or Mage, or Earthdawn..." or any
> other role-playing game. The basic concepts of SR magic aren't going to
> change, but we might be able to fix some of the "feel" of it.
>
> Steve K.
Well, I liked the semi-scientific view of magic in shadowrun very
much... and all of my players did as well. I would not change the
'feeling' of magic in the game... IMHO, it is very good as it is now.
Just fix the bugs in the magic-rules... everything will be perfect
then. ss
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:32:22 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Barrier Rating Rules part 1
In-Reply-To: <199707071314.HAA26582@******> from "Gurth" at Jul 7,
97 03:10:25 pm
Content-Type: text
Gurth wrote:
|
| THE ULTIMATE (?) SHADOWRUN BARRIER RULES INTERPRETATION<
|
| by Damion Milliken <milko@*ow.edu.au> and Gurth <gurth@******.nl>, with
| some input from Vince Pellerin
First, nice job!
| AMMUNITION/ATTACK DAMAGE BARRIER PENETRATION BARRIER
| RATING RATING
| Blasts Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Shouldn't there be two categories of Blasts, direct and indirect?
When I say direct I'm thinking of the demolitions expert placing a
shaped charge on the barrier itself, or a direct hit by a missile.
For indirect I'm refering to grenades and such going off in the
vicinity.
| Gel (Stun) ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
| Rubber Bullets Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Why isn't the Penetration Rating higher for these? I'd think that
gel and rubber rounds wouldn't have much of a chance penetrating any
barrier.
| a) the Power Level is smaller than one-half the Damage Barrier Rating. In
| this nothing happens except for some chips and scratches to the
| barrier.
Just a few gramatical criticisms. Try, "the Power Level is less than
one-half..."
| c) the Power Level is larger than the Damage Barrier Rating. Subtract the
| Damage Barrier Rating from the Power Level, multiply by 2, divide by the
"the Power Level is greater than the Damage..."
| Two words: therapy.
LOL
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink! - The sound of a crescent roll being stolen.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:47:23 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells -- Level 6?
In-Reply-To: <199707071320.HAA26679@******> from "Simon T. Sailer" at Jul
7,
97 03:16:39 pm
Content-Type: text
Simon T. Sailer wrote:
|
| Spike said:
|
| > I don't blame you. My personal rule on buying spells is 4 or 5 for a few
| > combat spells, 1 for health spells, and 2 or 3 for various others.
| >
| > The only spells I'd go the full six on are threshold spells, like control
| > thoughts or control actions....
| >
| > I like having a lot of different spells, as opposed to being BAMBAM.....
|
| Then you are one of the rare exceptions. The character you describe
| would be considerably less powerful than one with spells at level 6.
| if you don't mind, fine. But most players do.
It seems to be a carry over from AD$D (at least for us old farts :).
In AD$D every mage had Magic Missile, Fireball and Lightning Bolt.
And because everything was a dungeon crawl those where must have
spells. Even if your character had noncombat spells, he never
memorized them. They just took up space in his spellbook.
(Disclaimer: most AD$D campaigns, but not all.)
So you switch to Shadowrun and take ManaMissile and Fireball out of
habit, not realizing that the difference between AD$D and Shadowrun
is that Shadowrun is designed to be a Roleplaying game :) It takes a
little while to figure that out (in general).
And I blame GMs too for running combat intensive games (unless you
and your group like that, than more power to you). If you want to
fix the problem than force the issue at character creation with a
house rule, or run a campaign that requires a depth of skills.
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink! - The sound of a crescent roll being stolen.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:50:05 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
In-Reply-To: <199707071315.HAA26609@******> from "Gurth" at Jul 7,
97 03:10:25 pm
Content-Type: text
Gurth wrote:
|
| Surgery + Recovery = Total
| Standard 250,000 30,500 280,500
| Alpha 12,500,000 1,525,000 14,025,000
| Beta 12,500,000 1,525,000 14,025,000
| Delta 50,000,000 6,100,000 56,100,000
I don't have the rules handy, does it actually say that the recovery
costs are multiplied also? Cuz that doesn't make sense to me.
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink! - The sound of a crescent roll being stolen.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:52:17 +1000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Glenn Munro <eazy@*****.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
In-Reply-To: <tcppop3.372530@***.hydra.com.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 10:46 PM 05/07/97 -0500, Steve K. wrote:
>OK, I'm getting some good feedback. Here's Survey Question #3...
>
>One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more of a
>mystical/magical feel to it than it does now." I'm curious about the idea,
>since I don't quite understand it. Since SR magic is currently (IMHO) based
>on about 80% real-world magic theory and 20% fantasy magic (fireballs and
>such) it feels pretty "mystical" to me. I'd like some feedback on the issue.
>Is SR magic "magical" enough? If not, how could it be better?
>
>The one caveat I will have to put in is please, please don't tell me "the
>magic system should be more like Ars Magica, or Mage, or Earthdawn..." or any
>other role-playing game. The basic concepts of SR magic aren't going to
>change, but we might be able to fix some of the "feel" of it.
>
Perhaps this is more a GM thing.
Dove: OK I cast fireball
GM: Fine. Boom. Roll Dice.
There's not much in the rules to get players to be more creative than this
either. For the Shaman there is but it seems glanced at. IIRC there are
mentions of chanting and dancing and the like. (Don't have BBB with me to
check and haven't played a mage either so please forgive any ignorance)
I think for many people the mystic part comes from arcane symbols, complex
gesturing, secret unpronoucable languages and rare ingredients. Also
there's the spell length...all spell are whipped off at the speed of
thought (or thereabouts). Sure there's ritual sorcery but nothing in
between. Some may argue that having variable length spells will make mages
even worse in combat but this is not the point. Why should all should
spells take the same amount of time to cast?
The mechanics of the magic system seem to dominate discussions in BBB as
well. This makes magic feel more scientific than mystical (esp with the
reference to scientific methodology being used by some mages).
again forgive any ignorance on my part. I think its been a year since
reading that section in BBB and have not played a mage (maybe its time I
did. It would annoy our token Munchkin esp if I outdid him without
reverting to powergaming :)
QuickFix
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:02:51 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: William Monroe Ashe <wma6617@****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
In-Reply-To: <970707084349_1859766765@*******.mail.aol.com>
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The Great Steve wrote:
OK, I'm getting some good feedback. Here's Survey Question #3...
One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more
of a mystical/magical feel to it than it does now."
******
I am inclined to agree with the more "scientific" viewpoint. Most people
would approach magic using the only framewoek they have, which is a
scientific/mathematical backgound. The shamans while using dancing,
chanting etc etc would still view the big picture in a scientific way.
i.e. "Well mana is this it obeys these 'rules' ... I access and control
the mana via my totem, the ritual ..."
What would be interesting would be a discussion to GM's on how to
make it more "magical". The SR rules are clear as they stand (with a few
notable exceptions). I think that it is up to the individual GM to
tailor magic to his game. A bunch of research mages would not want to
have a more "magical" world because it would seriously challenge their
world view. But, that might make one really fun game.
I hope I have made my (a) point
regards
Bill
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:54:25 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 08:43:51 -0400"
<970707084349_1859766765@*******.mail.aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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You wrote:
> OK, I'm getting some good feedback. Here's Survey Question #3...
> One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more of a
> mystical/magical feel to it than it does now." I'm curious about the idea,
> since I don't quite understand it. Since SR magic is currently (IMHO) based
> on about 80% real-world magic theory
Whoah, hold on here a second, partner. Real-world magic theory. Could you try
to go over that a little again? I might have missed something. ;)
and 20% fantasy magic (fireballs and
> such) it feels pretty "mystical" to me. I'd like some feedback on the
issue.
> Is SR magic "magical" enough? If not, how could it be better?
I think they mean the fact that magic gets reduced to stats and combat abilites
rather than being somthing mysterious and special. The problems being that
a) the players all know and understand the basics of magic in the SR world, and
b) the cyberpunk feel of the original world means that magic could be taken as
'just another way to do biz'. I don't think SR needs more of a mystical feel
overall, personally, I just think that playing a spellcaster could be
roleplayed a bit better, if people want *magicians* to seem more mystical.
But I can see the Burned-out Mage archetype talking about how magic is just 'A
slick, a come-on... a lie.' ('course, he got dropped from the 2nd ed rulebook:).
Magic is there, but much like Elves, everyone has to realize that they're not
the happy singing elves of myth, magic isn't some strange imponderable. Magic
has been assimilated into the world of 2050, and things just kept moving on.
> The one caveat I will have to put in is please, please don't tell me "the
> magic system should be more like Ars Magica, or Mage, or Earthdawn..." or any
> other role-playing game. The basic concepts of SR magic aren't going to
> change, but we might be able to fix some of the "feel" of it.
Nah, SR's magic system was the first 'organic' magic system I'd seen, and it
has its own consistent feel. It's comfy now. Don't you dare turn it into ED's
magic system or anything else.
thanks,
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:24 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
In-Reply-To: <4957.199707061207@******.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>
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Spike said on 13:07/ 6 Jul 97...
> With edges, a phys ad could buy ALL his abilities AND get astral perception
> effectively free.....
I don't allow several edges in my game, and have adjusted the costs for
others. I'm not sure about the Magical Talent edges, so for the moment
I've disallowed them on the basis that they duplicate what actual
magicians do and can too much; High Pain Tolerance is another one: at 1
point per box, why would a physad want to spend .5 Magic Points per box on
what is essentially the same thing?
> I don't like the idea of edges. Too munchy.
Depends on the edge, IMHO. Some are just too easy to abuse, while others
make for interesting characters. The real trick is getting players to take
those instead of the easy bonuses :)
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:24 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
In-Reply-To: <970706125916_1111540336@*******.mail.aol.com>
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Archie Burks said on 12:59/ 6 Jul 97...
> If you want to play SR, then play it. If you want to play ED, then play it.
> If and when they come out with the ties then you can euther play it or stick
> with the old stuff. Your choice. But me I like the idea of tieing the two
> together. It gives a sense of history , a true sense of an epic story.
It can do that, yeah. However, introducing Horrors into SR would most
likely mean the quick annihilation of most of the population of the world,
with the rest held in slavery by the Horrors -- SR's magic hasn't
developed far enough to combat them (thread magic, spell matrices, etc.)
and the tech is probably not quite advanced enough either to rely on that
alone (and in combination with SR magic you'd do better to just run away).
Aside from that, it would make no sense for Horrors to come through en
masse around 2060 -- it's about 2000 years too soon.
> Just wait until the "Hunter of dragons" shows up and then decides to get
> Wired Reflexes 3 nd mabye orthoskin then tries to hunt you down. then
> you'll be praying for the passions to teach you to tie threads .
One quesiton: WHY would good old Verji want wired reflexes? Looks to me
like he's powerful enough already...
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:12:51 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells -- Level 6?
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 15:16:39 +0100"
<E7D29E6040@********.uibk.ac.at>
MIME-version: 1.0
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You wrote:
> > I don't blame you. My personal rule on buying spells is 4 or 5 for a few
> > combat spells, 1 for health spells, and 2 or 3 for various others.
> >
> > The only spells I'd go the full six on are threshold spells, like control
> > thoughts or control actions....
> >
> > I like having a lot of different spells, as opposed to being BAMBAM.....
> Then you are one of the rare exceptions. The character you describe
> would be considerably less powerful than one with spells at level 6.
> if you don't mind, fine. But most players do.
I usually prioritize my spells, a few at 5-6, and the rest at 4's or less, to
try to get enough variety. But we usually only have one magician in the party
and so I don't have any magical 'backup'. Usually one of the combat spells is
a 6, with an area-effect backup at 4, and one of the more utility spells is
also a 5-6, the rest at lower levels depending on what force I think I need for
the character. This is also what I've seen every other SR gamer I've played
with do, but I've had the luck of not playing with too many munchkins.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:22:52 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <bxb24@**.opp.psu.edu>
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Organization: Office of Physical Plant
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
In-Reply-To: <199707071309.PAA06036@**********.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> > Just wait until the "Hunter of dragons" shows up and then decides to
get
> > Wired Reflexes 3 nd mabye orthoskin then tries to hunt you down. then
> > you'll be praying for the passions to teach you to tie threads .
>
> One quesiton: WHY would good old Verji want wired reflexes? Looks to
> me like he's powerful enough already...
Simple. Verji's a Munchie. Isn't it obvious?
-=SwiftOne=-
(I should know better than to post my Fixers bit after SR3....no one
will notice it. :( Also: SR3: The Big Red. Count on it.)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:28:01 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <bxb24@**.opp.psu.edu>
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Organization: Office of Physical Plant
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
In-Reply-To: <970707084349_1859766765@*******.mail.aol.com>
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> I'd like some feedback on the issue. Is SR magic "magical" enough?
> If not, how could it be better?
Differentiate the Shaman/Hermetic bit.
Hermetics study it all, and it works through rigidly applied
rules...so say that.
Shamans....they totally lack mysticism....it's like they are
delusional hermetics. Same effects, same rules, only a +2 to
translate between them, and they don't have to be so anal.
Also, all the bits about "How Magic Works" pretty much support the
hermetic side....it isn't magical, its scientific.
('Course those same bits are important to settle disputes, so.....I
don't enyc your job. Yes I do, I want it a lot :) I just don't envy
the complaints you'll get when it's done.
-=SwiftOne=-
Please sir, save the world!
And if it isn't too much of a bother, could you do it before Tea
Time?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:29:25 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PRONE <downsa@******.EDU>
Subject: Re: shotguns and silencers
everyone's been helpful in dealing with shotguns and silencers. however, my
players also had gasvents on various shotguns as well. any idea on the
applications and consequences of gasvents on the end of shotguns?
Aaron
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:40:44 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Organization: University of Innsbruck, Austria
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells -- Level 6?
In-Reply-To: <01IKY9T40HEE9I4IK5@******.acs.muohio.edu>
> I usually prioritize my spells, a few at 5-6, and the rest at 4's or less, to
> try to get enough variety. But we usually only have one magician in the party
> and so I don't have any magical 'backup'. Usually one of the combat spells is
> a 6, with an area-effect backup at 4, and one of the more utility spells is
> also a 5-6, the rest at lower levels depending on what force I think I need for
> the character. This is also what I've seen every other SR gamer I've played
> with do, but I've had the luck of not playing with too many munchkins.
>
> losthalo
There is a bid difference between someone who uses the more effective
way and a munchkin.
Choose one spell less and increase the efficiency of 5 others by
100%. Thats not munchkinous, that's common sense.
(of course, this only counts for resisted spells... Not only combat
spells)
ss (who defends his players ;)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:43:45 EST
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <bxb24@**.opp.psu.edu>
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Organization: Office of Physical Plant
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells -- Level 6?
In-Reply-To: <01IKY9T40HEE9I4IK5@******.acs.muohio.edu>
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> I usually prioritize my spells, a few at 5-6, and the rest at 4's or
> less, to try to get enough variety. But we usually only have one
> magician in the party and so I don't have any magical 'backup'.
> Usually one of the combat spells is a 6, with an area-effect backup
> at 4, and one of the more utility spells is also a 5-6, the rest at
> lower levels depending on what force I think I need for the
> character. This is also what I've seen every other SR gamer I've
> played with do, but I've had the luck of not playing with too many
> munchkins.
I border on Munchie with my spells....I usually have one At
6....Manabolt or StunBolt. Maybe two at 4....Compel Truth, Mind
Probe..
All the rest are 1's, and I take a LOT of them. My shamans aren't
combat oriented....and If I do get into combat, I'm more likely to
use Levitate Person, or Magic fingers.
the True power of the Magician lies not in a few high force spells,
but in the endless versatility they provide.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:46:13 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Organization: University of Innsbruck, Austria
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells -- Level 6?
In-Reply-To: <199707071347.HAA27291@******>
> And I blame GMs too for running combat intensive games (unless you
> and your group like that, than more power to you). If you want to
> fix the problem than force the issue at character creation with a
> house rule, or run a campaign that requires a depth of skills.
>
> -David
If your mage has no spells that can be resisted, than every level
from 1-6 is ok. If your mage has even one resisted spell, than it
would be a unnecessary loss of effectivity if he had him at any level
but 6.
Accuse me of munchkinism all you want, to me this is just common
sense.
ss
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:58:28 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
On Monday, July 07, 1997 08:43, Steve Kenson[SMTP:TalonMail@***.COM] wrote:
> OK, I'm getting some good feedback. Here's Survey Question #3...
>
> One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more
of a
> mystical/magical feel to it than it does now." I'm curious about the
idea,
> since I don't quite understand it. Since SR magic is currently (IMHO)
based
> on about 80% real-world magic theory and 20% fantasy magic (fireballs and
> such) it feels pretty "mystical" to me. I'd like some feedback on the
issue.
> Is SR magic "magical" enough? If not, how could it be better?
>
> The one caveat I will have to put in is please, please don't tell me "the
> magic system should be more like Ars Magica, or Mage, or Earthdawn..." or
any
> other role-playing game. The basic concepts of SR magic aren't going to
> change, but we might be able to fix some of the "feel" of it.
There's gonna be a big discussion on this too...
Anyway, how about more descriptions. I'd like to see about a column-length
(assuming the same font/size as SRII) description of what a novice mage
sees in astral space when he first projects (perhaps as the intro to the
Astral Space section...(actually, I'd almost rather see a bunch of
vignettes as introductions to the sections than one story a la Plus ca
Change. But that would shoot the page count up.)) Also, make astral space
more threatening. If the magically capable PCs are taking a (small) risk
every time they project, they might be a little less willing to do so at
every opportunity. Creatures such as the corpselight and nomad (PANA) might
be nice to see in the main rules. OTOH, they might make astral space a
little *too* dangerous.
I think that the Astral Terrain chapter from the Grimoire belongs in the
main book. Background count is a useful tool to rein in mages, and finding
out *why* an area has a background count is a nifty little maguffin. The
rest of the chapter has (some) descriptions of astral space, too.
Another thing: how long can a spell be sustained? The only place this
question is even referred to is in _Who hunts the Hunter_ when one of the
mages states that she can only maintain her (paralysis) spell for another
45 minutes after casting it. Not good.
--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:56:58 -0400
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From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Skill Limitations...
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I'm pretty much against lowering the Skill Limits presented at
character generation. I've been playing for QUITE awhile, and have had
no problem with the rules as laid out. It's mostly a matter of personal
GM preference as to what power level he's comfortable running in his
game, and if his players agree, fine and dandy. The key point is to
always consider how your players feel about rulings like that, as
they're the ones who are going to be most affected by it.
A GM should try to set the parmeters in his world that his/her
players are comfortable with, AND that don't outrage the sensibilities
of the GM. I've been in games where the GMs have believed their words as
incontrivertable (?) as God's, and VERY inflexible. Needless to say,
neither myself or a few other players stayed in that group for long.
Players like it when they feel they have a character that can go on and
survive a 'high adventure', instead of being relegated to, to use a AD&D
euphemism, '1st Level dungeon crawls'.
AD&D was the first RPG I ever played [after a hiatus of 10 years, I
finally got back into a friend's AD&D campaign; I'm playing an grey
elven warrior ala Gary Oldman's Dr. Smith as will be portrayed in the
upcoming Lost in Space Movie], and I think I speak for a number of the
'older' players in that you don't want to feel that you're running over
the same ground over and over and over again. You don't have to start
firing megacannons at each other either[besides, you couldn't get one
under your armor jack :-].
Everyone sets their own 'limits of growth' for their games [I leave
the character gen as is, and tend to have a skill capping off point of
9, in extreme cases. This includes making sure someone doesn't load up
on,say, physad points to give themselves a character with 14 dice in
unarmed combat, not including combat pool!].
Instead of limiting players like that, GENTLY encourage them to use
some of their skill points to purchase other things they need, like
Etiquettes, Knowledges, etc. I tend to play a 50/50 action~ roleplaying
type game, and to be honest, Shadowrun campaigns are at least partly
about combat. [If I wanted to be in a game where it's 10% action/90%
roleplaying, I'd play White Wolf more often.]. You want a character
that's going to survive, but it's not necessary to make a killing
machine. [Just say NO to Robocop characters; but that's MY personal
peeve]. And almost no on in my games tends to take the 'fireball' type
spells, anyway.
Just because a player doesn't want his character mindwiped by a
Mage's mana spell, is no reason to penalize him for wanting a high
Willpower. PCs ARE supposed to be the heroes of the story, and they
shoudl tend to be better than the average NPCs they meet. Of course
they'll meet others in their class, and a few above, but they shouldn't
be utter 'wooses'.
If a GM is worried about their 'starting' players being to
powerful, don't attack the problem head on, go AROUND it. You're setting
the playing field, not the PC [unless they're ESPECIALLY devious, and
I've had a few of those too.]. If they have high stats and skills making
them diff for a GM to challenge, take a peek where they're weak points
are , and strike there. Don't always go for the frontal attack. Don't
always try to 'over power' a PC. Go around them, hit them where they
don't expect it.
Character tends to carry twenty guns, and has more ammo than the
National Guard, have a spirit cause accident on him, making him fall
down a flight of stairs, all of his guns discharging simultaneously!. If
he survives that and the tumble, have the sec guards or whatever lock
the poor slob away, probably laughing too hard to think of geeking him.
Unstoppable cybertroll charging you with a strength of 14? Hit him
with an Ice Slick spell, wait till he slides out of control towards you,
then slam him with a pipe, or whatever's hand, preferably in the
kneecaps or 'lower regions'.
Killer mage with a deadly Mana 6 mind fry and a Bullet Barrier?
Have someone distract him, then slide a claymore to his feet. That
should put a crimp in his underware.
The point I'm trying to make is, you don't have to severely limit
players to have a PLAYABLE game; the GM just has to be more creative. As
far as roleplaying for PCs, no matter how much you kick a Player, he's
NOT going to roleplay more if he doesn't WANT to. Gently coax him in
that direction. You get more with a kind word and a gun, than you do
with just a gun. And if they don't want to roleplay, maybe they'd be
happier with table top board games, Warhammer 40K.
Guess I gotta say no to lower attribute/skill starting maxes to 4
or 5.
Victor
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:24 +0100
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (spoilers removed for the unknowing)
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J. Keith Henry said on 12:35/ 6 Jul 97...
> Hey, the SHADOWS!!!! Ultimate in Horror Manifestation (if they aren't,
> nothing the frag is)
I don't own any of the recent ED books, so I guess I've missed them. Maybe
it's time to play ED sometime again...
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:18:43 EDT
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From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
Steve Kenson said:
<<OK, I'm getting some good feedback. Here's Survey Question #3...
One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more
of a
mystical/magical feel to it than it does now." I'm curious about the
idea,
since I don't quite understand it. Since SR magic is currently (IMHO)
based
on about 80% real-world magic theory and 20% fantasy magic (fireballs and
such) it feels pretty "mystical" to me. I'd like some feedback on the
issue.
Is SR magic "magical" enough? If not, how could it be better?>>
Well, I don't mind the hermetic viewpoint that SR magic is given myself,
all else aside, it does do a good job of not presenting the shaman's
view, though. I'll agree that hermetic theory is used most when dealing
with how magic works, etc, because it functions within a set of clearly
defined rules and guidlines. Shamanic magic, by its very nature, becomes
more unpredictable. But, like I said, the shamanic viewpoint isn't
presented *from* the shamanic viewpoint at any point in the books.
<<The one caveat I will have to put in is please, please don't tell me
"the
magic system should be more like Ars Magica, or Mage, or Earthdawn..." or
any
other role-playing game. The basic concepts of SR magic aren't going to
change, but we might be able to fix some of the "feel" of it.>>
:) You're lucky: SR's the only game I'm familiar enough with to discuss
such things on:)
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:32:34 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells -- Level 6?
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 16:46:13 +0100"
<E950EC4309@********.uibk.ac.at>
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You wrote:
> If your mage has no spells that can be resisted, than every level
> from 1-6 is ok. If your mage has even one resisted spell, than it
> would be a unnecessary loss of effectivity if he had him at any level
> but 6.
> Accuse me of munchkinism all you want, to me this is just common
> sense.
Unless, of course, those points would help you more somewhere else (i.e. you
can get enough out of a force 4 fireball...). I've tended to take only one or
two spells at a force of 6, if that. But I'm also using some force points to
pay for a focus, so I'm a little shy on points for what I want, usually. And
sometimes the high-force spells are the Invisibility and Physical Mask, to make
them hard to see through... I'm not accusing you of munchkinism, though it may
be the case, just of giving a sweeping generalization that is really untrue.
losthalo
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:51:21 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
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> From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
> Date: Monday, July 07, 1997 8:43 AM
> OK, I'm getting some good feedback. Here's Survey Question #3...
> One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more
of a
> mystical/magical feel to it than it does now." I'm curious about the
idea,
> since I don't quite understand it. Since SR magic is currently (IMHO)
based
> on about 80% real-world magic theory and 20% fantasy magic (fireballs and
> such) it feels pretty "mystical" to me. I'd like some feedback on the
issue.
> Is SR magic "magical" enough? If not, how could it be better?
<Snip>
Okay, here is the problem I have. However, it's not with the game system -
it's with GMs and Players. Many PCs seem to know everything about magic in
SR because the players know how it works. I absolutely despise this. I
can't stand it when Player and Character knowledge is intertwined. In my
house rules I make it very clear that if you want your PC to know more than
absolutely zilch about magic, the PC *must* have a Magical Theory skill.
If your backround states that you are comfortable with magic, or have
worked with mages in the past....buy a Magical Theory skill. The only way
any PC is going to know what's going on when trying to figure out something
magical, is to roll a successful Magical Theory test (although full blown
mages and shamans will be cut a little slack on the simple stuff).
The other thing I do to make things more unpredictable is use the rule of
magical misfires, mana fluctuation, null zones, etc.
Hopefully, my new group of players will keep the mystical feel of magic
with adequate role playing. We'll see. I don't see what the game system
can do to improve this situation, though.
> Steve K.
Justin :)
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:58:52 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
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> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Date: Monday, July 07, 1997 7:51 AM
> Loki said on 2:29/ 6 Jul 97...
<Snip>
> > We finally ruled that 1's equal to or greater than Sorcery -OR- all
> > dice coming up 1's, whichever is lower, means the spell caster flubbed
> > it.
> That sounds like a good enough compromise. If you were to base it on the
> spell's Force, then even the world's greatest spellcasters would have a
> major chance of a fumble when casting low-Force spells, while avoiding
> fumbles should be based on skill -- someone who doesn't know what he or
> she is doing has a much greater chance of messing up big-time than
someone
> who's done the same thing a million times before.
> OTOH this does mean that if you cast a spell with less dice than your
> skill level you never ever mess up. Since spellcasting is supposed to be
> more of an art than a science, that doesn't feel right either. In short,
> I'd base it on the Sorcery skill, but let all ones take precedence, like
> you suggest.
Here's another suggestion. How about you use the standard magical misfire
rules (basing it on the force of the spell), BUT when casting a spell you
make an extra wound modified (4) test with your sorcery skill. Every
success earned offsets one 1 rolled while casting the spell. This does
NOT, however, apply to rolling all 1's. That is a botch, and can only be
avoided with karma, per the normal rules. Of course, there is no need for
making this extra test unless you are going to misfire with the way the
dice rolled. If you don't roll enough 1's to misfire, just don't make this
test. This test is an attempt to hold the magic together in the form of
the spell being cast, while it is trying to come apart at the seams. I
allows for knowledge of magic to offset some of the hazards of stuffing too
much mana into too small of a base spell. Comments?
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:06:00 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (spoilers removed for the unknowing)
In-Reply-To: <199707071517.JAA01678@******> from "Gurth" at Jul 7,
97 03:10:24 pm
Content-Type: text
Gurth wrote:
|
| J. Keith Henry said on 12:35/ 6 Jul 97...
|
| > Hey, the SHADOWS!!!! Ultimate in Horror Manifestation (if they aren't,
| > nothing the frag is)
|
| I don't own any of the recent ED books, so I guess I've missed them. Maybe
| it's time to play ED sometime again...
Nope. It's time to watch Babylon V. The Shadows are a race of Old
Ones (aliens that have been around for billions of years). They fit
the Horror mold pretty well.
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink! - The sound of a crescent roll being stolen.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:57:08 -0700
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From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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| Nightlife I have come to the conclusion that if you don't like magic
| in your game, play CP2020. It doesn't have any.
I think was kind of a cheap shot and unnecessary. NIghtlife has never even
hinted that he wanted to do away with magic, just that he feels the normal
"default" drain is too light. Lets try to keep it friendly, we're better
than that.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:39:11 -0700
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From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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| >The point that I was trying to make is that there will always be things
| >that certain people can do and others cannot. If a sammie is worthless
| >outside of combat then the person who made him was either a munchkin or
| >made a mistake. If a mage is bad in combat it should be for the same
| >reason, not because the rules forbid him from having a decent chance in
a
| >fight.
|
| Or just trying to follow what the precepts of the game set up for him.
I don't agree with this...I have always liked that SR didn't flat out
forbid anything from anyone...with the exception of magical ability after
character gen, but my point is the sammie should have some other skills
that have bearing on the game, whether they are electronics, or computer
skills, or some driving ability, or even negotiation for those pesky
meetings. That was my point, not that the sammie should not have any
combat skills.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
p.s. Sorry I am lagging, i'm a few days behind and it's a bit daunting to
say the least.
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:03:10 -0700
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From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
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| >If the whiner wants to play with your group, he
| >will learn to keep his mouth shut.
|
| Actually he didn't he organized a little conspiracy behind my back
| thankfully my loyalists made me aware of this before it was to late.
For some reason this made me laugh really hard. :)
I can just see a man dressed in black coming to Nightlife and they would be
calling each other "Patriot," and such. Sorry the loyalist part just got
to me. =)
Proceed.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:55:19 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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| > | Let's take another example then.. F/2 exclusive manaball at force 6.
| > | The mage takes 2S drain; not hard to avoid. Add two dice and it's
| > | no drain at average with some margin of safety. (assuming he has 6
| > | willpower.). This leaves 10 dice for the success test.
| >
| > Exclusive spells are a completely different animal and not what we are
| > discussing.
|
| Oh, so ways to reduce drain has no bearing on a discussion of what
| base drain should be? How remiss of me. It is clear I have no idea
| whatsoever of how the magic system works, and withdraw from
| the argument... COME ON! Grow up!
The reason I said that it has no bearing is because for one thing the base
spell that someone is going to have is not exclusive, new players (which is
what the "default" is mainly for) will typically in my experience not take
exclusive spells because they have dreams of tossing spells around like
they are candy. Also exclusive do have their drawbacks as i'm sure you are
well aware and they benefits even out in the end.
| You guys argue like little children.
DO NOT!!!! <stamping foot>
You try to dredge up points
| where mages are weaker than samurai, and to prove the point, you use
| totally pointless examples. (A mage facing a samurai in a straight
| shootout fight with a power friggin bolt at force 4.. what mage in
| his right mind would do that?
That was exactly the point of what I was saying. You can't hope to do much
with a force 4 spell, but is the F drain was in effect force 6 spells would
be drain heavy.
And then when someone comes up with an
| example of a normal spell use that would waste the samurai, you go,
| Naa, naa, it has no bearing, and besides, the samurai would win
| initiative anyway.(Yeah, I snipped that part) Think a little before
| typing, because you can perfectly well figure out the next logical
| step in *that* armsrace. The mage will always be able to stay one
| step ahead of the samurai. Disregard, physical mask, control actions,
| influence could all be pieces in that game; several moves against
| which there is few countermoves except for another magician.
| What, there isn't an appropriate spell? The magician can MAKE one.
I still hold to the fact that exclusive and fetish requiring spells
benefits even out in the end and are generally not used be the players who
would not know the system well enough to adjust drain for their game to the
appropriate level. As for the arms race it will be pretty much equal
unless one side or the other gets stupid.
| My opinion is that F/2 coupled with fetishes and exclusive spells
| leave drain too easy to resist. Make the disadvantages with using
| fetishes and exclusive spells real, then it's okay enough, but as it
| is, it's flawed. Now you can argue that F drain is too much; but
| both you and I know that drain of a force 6 spell can be resisted as
| if it was force 2, so your arguments sound a bit hollow in my ears.
| But that's ok enough, since a force 11 spell can, with F/2, then be
| resisted against a base drain TN of 3. Now if that isn't 'major mojo'
| reduced a bit too easily, then nothing is. And of course if
| exclusivity and fetishes was not part of the picture, then a drain of
| F would be far too much; F/2 would then be fair.
And I have said from the beginning that Nightlife and yourself have had
viable points and if that kind of Mojo is being slung in your game then you
should use F drain, but I don't want to see a point reached where exclusive
and fetish requiring is a necessity for the more heavy duty spells (ala
fireball) to stay conscious. I still hold to the fact that new players who
will not know enough to change the drain code, should stay with the F/2 if
for no other reason but to show how deadly magic is in SR...that and the
fact that it is so rare is why it is feared. F drain will keep people from
taking the high force spells due to drain and then they will be much less
effective. That jump from 4 to 6 makes a huge difference.
| It's late, I'm tired. Be kind.
:p~~ Take that. :)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:42:57 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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| >So characters in your game don't ever get shot at? Do they stay inside?
| >(This is an honest question.)
|
| No, thats an insult. As for the question it's called bullet barrier.
I t was not meant as such...I have seen people who play mages as almost
strictly astral backup and as such they would never be shot at. Bullet
barrier is not a cure all as it either gives you plus 2 to TN's, or is on
an active lock, and adds to visibility mods. Doesn't mean I don't use it
too, but it has some drawbacks as well.
| >Recoil doesn't kill anyone, that's my point. A sam can deal out 18D
damage
| >with no side effect to resist, but ammo expenditures. Can a mage do
that
| >with magic?
|
|
| If he picks up the same gun he can. The sammie needs the gun to hand out
| that kind of damage. The mage can design a spell to duplicate it. Can the
| sammie summon a spirit?
Granted the mage can use the canon as well, and the sammie cannot use magic
(he could bond a free spirit though :), but the sammie cannot sling mojo
because he chose not to...it's not fair to penalize the mage to excess
because of it.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:07:35 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 11:51:21 -0400"
<199707071551.LAA12592@****.provide.net>
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You wrote:
> Okay, here is the problem I have. However, it's not with the game system -
> it's with GMs and Players. Many PCs seem to know everything about magic in
> SR because the players know how it works. I absolutely despise this.
So point out to your players their lack of knowledge, I guess. And if they
can't take the hint, no Karma awards for roleplaying, etc., though I don't
really believe in enforcing roleplaying. If they don't want to, hey, do
Warhammer or Battletech instead. :)
I
> can't stand it when Player and Character knowledge is intertwined. In my
> house rules I make it very clear that if you want your PC to know more than
> absolutely zilch about magic, the PC *must* have a Magical Theory skill.
> If your backround states that you are comfortable with magic, or have
> worked with mages in the past....buy a Magical Theory skill.
True, but what if you don't really understand it, but you are comfortable with
its general effects (you're a sammy, but you've partnered with this shaman for
over three years now, you'ver worked out your tactics together, you have a
grasp of how magic is used in combat, but no real understanding of how it's
done)? That isn't a skill, per se, it's character background.
The only way
> any PC is going to know what's going on when trying to figure out something
> magical, is to roll a successful Magical Theory test (although full blown
> mages and shamans will be cut a little slack on the simple stuff).
That would require a pretty hefty number of points in the skill, not the 1 or 2
that 'familiarity with magic' would represent, rather a year or two at least of
serious study, imo. I'd think a point or two in the skill would be enough to
recognize general effects without rolling for it, myself. After all, we don't
force characters to 'roleplay' their unfamiliarity with combat when bullets
start flying, even if they're a mage. Most people their first time in combat
are a little stunned, especially if not trained in it.
> Hopefully, my new group of players will keep the mystical feel of magic
> with adequate role playing. We'll see. I don't see what the game system
> can do to improve this situation, though.
I think more the example descriptions and 'flavor text' is what conveys the
mood of magic in SR, that's what he's talking about to some extent, the way
magic is portrayed. Of course game mechanics cannot easily portray mood
(though detailed ones like Ars Magica do so, they are cumbersome for a
fast-paced system like SR).
And as for roleplaying, well, some people would be really comfortable and bored
with magic. It becomes just another tool to them. Think of the Combat Mage
and Burned-out Mage Archetypes, they're not googly-eyed over magic, it's
something they use, every day, and they don't try to make it mysterious and
interesting to others.
losthalo
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:00:29 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
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| Huh?
| I thought I was involved in this discussion already, are my posts getting
| through?
Sorry about that Greg my faux pas (uh huhuhuh I said faux pas) I was in
such a hurry to keep up with the mail that I misunderstood who was asking
the question...sorry 'bout that.
| I was just clarifying for Victor why we were discussing this; or more
| accurately why I am involved in discussing this. In cases like the F
| vs.F/2 debate I would normally take the position that it doesn't matter,
| use whatever makes you happy, then I wouldn't have to stress over
| nightlife's insistence that mages take damage every time they cast a
spell
| ;-> That's why, although I've been on the list for like two years now I
| hardly ever post.
That's what I was trying to do also, just in a more roundabout way. =)
| Geez I'm feeling sorta invisible...
Anyone else hear that? <grin>
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:32:34 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Drain, devolving into Selection of Skills...
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Caric says:
> I don't agree with this...I have always liked that SR didn't flat out
>forbid anything from anyone...with the exception of magical ability after
>character gen, but my point is the sammie should have some other skills that
>have bearing on the game, whether they are electronics, or computer
>skills, or some driving ability, or even negotiation for those pesky
>meetings. That was my point, not that the sammie should not have any combat
>skills.
>
>Victor says:
> I echo Caric's statements. Other than the 'Mage' abilities avaliable at
>character gen, you're not limited by 'fighter' or 'magik user' classes. Newer
>players won't necessarily see the reasoning behind giving their characters
>skills like Driving or Electronics, etc. [and a few powergammers :-{}
><grrrrr> ], so GMs should subtly place them in situations where such skills
>are required. That is if the player responds well to 'expanding' the scope of
>his character. He may like just being from the 'CONAN' school of
>shadowrunning.
>
>'There's Mayhem, and then there's SMART Mayhem!'.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:32:03 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Greg <greg@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: shotguns and silencers
In-Reply-To: <199707070453.AAB42526@*****.frontiernet.net>
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At 12:51 AM 7/7/97 -0400, SilverFire wrote:
> I believe there is sound suppresion for the Barret, but I don't
believe
>that it can be truly silenced considering the size and all. The only reason
>I know that it can be muffled is that one of my Street Sams got it as part
>of payment for a run for some guy in the Army who called himself Sgt.
>Slaughter for some ungodly reason. Of course the less said about that run
>the better.
>
I actually know of an infantry Sargeant in the US Army that is named
Slaughter... by birth.
<greg>
Knowing is half the battle
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:05:40 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Return of MC23
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| >MC23 and TopCat...can you say oil and water? I think you can. :)
| >
| >This is gonna be fun!
|
|
| Ummm...Caric? How do you define 'fun'?
Not very well i'm sure.
:)
Muahahaha!!!!
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:12:36 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Wide World of Maps
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| Maps. Lots of people want more of a map, I'd wouldn't be against it
| myself. I'm curious to see just where the Heavenherders founded Azania
| and all:)
Okay so I was reading through Canthros' post thinking "mm hmm, yes, I like
what you've done here <nod>," when I remembered something. I had gotten a
ride to our SR game this Saturday, which I am later going to use as an
excuse so bear with me, when I notice that about a block from Loki's house
where we normally play there is a store called "World of Maps." Now I took
a double take and then thought that might be a good place to check out and
I can't beleive that I had never seen it before since I drive right by
there about four or six times every week. I will stick to the story that
because I am such an alert driver I was always watching the road and so
never saw it. :) Anyway it was too late to check it out that night, but
i'll check it out later this week and if it has a wide selection of good
maps i'll let you guys know.
World of Maps...who would of thunk it.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:31:48 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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| >Many people have suggested setting Spell Drain TNs back at Force instead
of
| >F/2. What do people think of this? Please remember, I need to know WHY
you
| >think the idea is good or bad.
| >
| I actually think it should be on a spell by spell basis, maybe...
<snip Bull's points and examples>
Alright that's it!!!! Here we are trying to have a legitimate debate about
drain codes, and Bull has to come along and offer an alternative that might
make sense. I'll not stand for it!!!! Stop this foolishness at once.
:)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:28:29 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: SR3 Debate
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| >True enough... and on this side, how about the 3rd edition suggestions
going
| >straight to Mr. Kenson instead of going to the list? This way, many
hours
| >of needless argumentative posting can be avoided. For example, one
person
| >says drain should be F one person says drain should be F/2, they argue
for
| >days over it and nothing gets accomplished except a lot of posts of "I'm
| >right" "No, I'm right". If they go straight to Steve, then we avoid
this
| >problem and suggestions actually get to be suggestions instead of
debates.
|
| I like reviewing things through debate. With feedback the
| troublesome issues can be properly viewed or, more to my style, ripped
| apart to see what's broken so it can be rebuilt into a "stronger" idea,
| as it were. I would have loved to have gotten into some type review on
| the companion before it hit. That book does make me wary of what could
| happen with the new rules. <shudder>
| Now the trick would be to recognize when a topic has gone from a
| debate to just flogging a dead horse.
| Besides, I hate the idea that people could be sending in silly ideas
| that could get published without me ever having a chance for countering
| it.
I must agree with MC23 on this one. I think that Steve wants some ideas
that have been hashed out and discussed, calmly and with forethought. (I'm
tryin' guys)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:20:58 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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| >You restricted it to combat in the first place. Combat or no, Drain
that
| >is damn near statistically impossible to resist is just silly. It
worked
| >marginally well in SRI due to the use of Sorcery as resist and the
varying
| >staging. It wouldn't work in SRIII without major rule revamping.
|
| Actually Caric took it there first. As for silly SR1 mages actually has
to
| try to sling the major mojo unlike SR2 mages who have it all and the
kitchen
| sink too.
True, it probably was I who used combat as an example, and I still think
that it is the best one to use because that is where drain is going to be
the most crucial. Who cares if they take a light drain when casting a
spell right before bedtime? :) SR1 rules weren't bad and I liked them for
magic as well, but I don't see that SR2 mages became more powerful, just
different, I mean after all they lost "Turn to Goo" as a spell in the main
book. :)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:14:13 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: B>]#
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| ><poltergeist>
| > I'm baaaaaack!!!
| ></poltergeist>
|
|
| Oh, dear. And the list was just getting back to normal (alright, so
| TopCat got here before that could happen. Even so...)
|
|
| :)
I think the list was set up on an ancient indian burial ground. It would
sure explain alot. =)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:53:58 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
In-Reply-To: <970706124946_-1260214228@*******.mail.aol.com> from "J. Keith
Henry" at Jul 6, 97 12:49:47 pm
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|And then comes along ED, with spells that can level cities, adept powers that
|rival the Spice Melange (spelling?) in pure form, and who knows what else...
I wouldn't worry too much.
Those kinds of magics are still centuries away in the Shadowrun
timeline.....
(Apart from our old buddies the IE....)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:01:35 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707071614.LAA11722@********.mcit.com>
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On 7 Jul 97 at 8:57, Caric wrote:
> | Nightlife I have come to the conclusion that if you don't like magic
> | in your game, play CP2020. It doesn't have any.
>
> I think was kind of a cheap shot and unnecessary. NIghtlife has never even
> hinted that he wanted to do away with magic, just that he feels the normal
> "default" drain is too light. Lets try to keep it friendly, we're better
> than that.
Your right, and you should read all your mail before replying, as
this thread ended this weekend with apologies all around.
--
=DREKHEAD========================================================
drekhead@***.net --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html ---
=================================================================
=================================================================
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot
stomping on a human face...forever. -George Orwell
=================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:54:32 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: something different ... actors for SR
On Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:00:02 -0500 William Monroe Ashe
<wma6617@****.TAMU.EDU> writes:
[...]
>Dunkelzahn: I see him as very charming, very "pretty" So I would cast
>Tom Cruise (both for cheesy marketing reasons, and he can actually act
>sometimes)
What???!?!?!?!
[...]
~Tim (not envisioning Tom Cruise as a great-wyrm anything...)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:54:32 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: NPC maintenance
On Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:06:03 -0700 Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM> writes:
>There a utility something like this that should work for characters
>and NPC's on Grifter's page. It's called Shadowrun pad.
>
>http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/2055/
>
>Only drawback is that he hasn't put a print feature in it yet. :o(
Really slick. Two thumbs up.
[And if any one has the new v1.1 (32-bit) please tell me if it runs
flawlessly on *your* system, it behaves a bit weird on my mine.]
As for print? well yeah, but IIRC the character files are just TXT, so if
you REALLY wanted to you could *easily* whip up a third party print
utility for it.
~Tim
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:54:32 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Consolidated Health Spells
On Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:30:28 -0400 MC23 <mc23@**********.COM> writes:
> I have never understood the need for separate spells for healing
>different levels of disease, poison, raise/lower attribute, etc. Why
>would anyone take the lower levels of these spells knowing that they
>might need one of a different level. These should all be unified like
>Heal and Treat were when 2nd edition came out. It just makes more sense
>to do so. They should be 1 spell with different drains for the
>different levels.
Yup. Our group has always played Treat/Heal spells as having a drain
equal to whatever level of damage you were trying to treat/heal. That
is, you just learned Treat or Heal in general, and if you cast it on a
guy with a Light wound the drain was L, if the wound was S then the drain
would be S too, etc.. Much less of a headache and it made more sence to
us.
~Tim
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:57:26 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 09:31:48 -0700"
<199707071646.MAA22025@********.mcit.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
You wrote:
| >Many people have suggested setting Spell Drain TNs back at Force instead of
> >F/2. What do people think of this? Please remember, I need to know WHY you
| >think the idea is good or bad.
> >
| I actually think it should be on a spell by spell basis, maybe...
> <snip Bull's points and examples>
> Alright that's it!!!! Here we are trying to have a legitimate debate about
> drain codes, and Bull has to come along and offer an alternative that might
> make sense. I'll not stand for it!!!! Stop this foolishness at once.
Mafe F instead of F/2 a possible modifier during spell creation (ala 3rd Ed
Grimoire...) and use it in the spells for 2nd ed. Toss in variable staging for
drain, and T# modifiers for drain, and you've now got a lot of options for
spell drain codes, which is nice, imo. :) Save F base drain for the big
nasties (Attribute increase spells, for instance).
losthalo, making life harder for game designers, so he can take their jobs ;)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:54:32 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA Site
On Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:23:54 -0400 "Steven A. Tinner"
<bluewizard@*****.COM> writes:
>Have patience people.
>It appears to just be working on a timed "push" system.
>Yes you get stuck at the ad for awhile, but eventually you skip ahead to
>the main page.
>Then again, some browsers may not support push tech after all ... sorry.
I guess you'll just have to blow some Karma to keep SOTA huh?
~Tim
>"Every word is nonsense, but I understand ..." - Counting Crows
"O-oh lord, I'm not ready for this sort of thing...."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:08:53 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970706182757.1a3f66b0@***.tiac.net> from
"Kabael" at
Jul 6, 97 06:26:22 pm
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|works well, ever since I got Earthdawn, I wondered just what the sequence of
|events was, and it ended up close to that. One question though...how can we
|be sure that what we would call the 1st age was the first, maybe it was
|merely the first recorded/remebered age, some might have become before.
That's almost a certainty if you think about it. The "1st world" must have
been along the lines of 45000 years ago. The Earth is several Billion, and
life has been around in some form for about 300 to 500 million years (Give
or take a billion).
Magic MUST have cycled back then as well. Who knows, maybe the horrors
caused the extinction of the dinosaurs, and wiped out whatever civilisation
the 0th world was, hence, no-one remembered it......
|Also, is each age the same for every planet in the universe or at least in
|our solar system, does each rise and fall together, or is it only a
|planetary phenomenon.
It's genarally believed that there can be no magic without life, so there
should be no magic on the moon, for example.
Mars? Well, we might know soon... :)
|>| !) is SR magic a limited form of adept magic or is a new form alltogether,
|>|maybe Psionics?
|>
|>Nope. It's very limited adept magic. Think about it.
|>A quickening viewed from astral resembles a thread. We just haven't figured
|>out how to weave them into REALLY powerful spells.... Yet.....
|>
|
|really! now that is interesting, but what does SR magic have drain, while ED
|doesnt.
Earthdawn Magic is very subtle. In shadowrun, without threadweaving, they
use nothing but pure force casting raw magic.
(There's no need for spell matrices yet, because very few areas have
background counts of +5 (tainted enough to cause damage).
When the Horrors arrived in ED, the entire astral plane was tainted to some
extent, so matrices were essensial to filter the energy.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:12:09 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties
In-Reply-To: <009B6DC4.5F10B620.26@******.edu> from "VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I
DROP PRONE" at Jul 6, 97 06:39:16 pm
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|
|-4) just when will all the elves in Tir start having thorns pop out of thier
|-skin ( didn't one of the SR books have illistration of a blood elf?)
|
|actually, i _think_ only the elves of tir na nog, which is either the physical
|location of the bloodwood or the metaphysical location, will sprout the thorns
|when the mana gets high enough.
Well, it's very doubtful if it's the PHYSICAL location, because Barsaive,
from the map, has been generally pinpointed around somewhere in eastern
europe. (Was the serpent the Danube? Can't remember....)
i believe that tir tairngire is the
|<meta>physical location of city of spires, and the elves that lived there (such
|as harly) did not and will not sprout thorns.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:52:13 -0800
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Skye Comstock <bilbo@****.NWLINK.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adpets, what do you play?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970706202548.007d9270@***.iquest.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>What sort of characters do you play when playing a PA?
I usually play "ninja" types-- adepts that focus on stealth and
subterfuge rather than loud guns and heavy feet. I've also made
a couple gun-slingers that turned out rather nicely. The money
wasn't much, so he usually ended up with a good Savalette or
two. <g>
>They never will be anywhere near as powerful as a sammy, right?
Maybe not compared to a sammy with A in resources, but over
time, with initiation and such, they can compete fairly well. I
don't look at characters from a stand-point of one being
better than another, I just play it.
>What are the advantages of playing one in SRII?
Dunno, don't have SR1...
>I know this is probably an old subject, but pointers to relative texts
>would be extremely helpful.
Yes, it is. ;)
-Skye
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:00:11 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 08:33 PM 7/2/97 -0005, woneal@*******.NET wrote:
>On 2 Jul 97 at 15:09, Michael Broadwater wrote:
>
>> At 03:25 PM 7/2/97 -0005, woneal@*******.NET wrote:
>> >On 1 Jul 97 at 23:24, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> The mere fact that a target is a megacorporation doesn't change the
>> >> financial cost of a given run against it, and your fixation that every
>> >> run against any megacorp involves a cost of billions is the crux of the
>> >> problem here. If the cost is small, the benefit of pursuit is similarly
>> >> small.
>> >
>> > That's half the crux. I get the distinct impression that Bob
>> thinks all
>> >runners are pond scum, low-lives, street trash and rank amatuers. He
>> >seems to think that there are no professionals in the shadow business,
>> >that they are all lying, thieving criminals. That a very limit view of a
>> >very diverse group. Obviously *some* runners fit into that category, but
>> >there are plenty who don't.
>>
>> Yeah, they're are all those heroe's out there that are clean cut,
>> wonderful people with no problems with society, and that's why they run
>> the shadows rather than use their skills to a productive end. I mean,
>> they learned all that great stuff at the corp and left because the corps
>> are bad mean people. Or they learned it in the military because gov't's
>> are all bad mean people. And now they run against corps and the gov't
>> for other corps and gov't's and don't worry about killing because, of
>> course, if you work for a corp, you aren't trying to feed your family and
>> be a good member of society, you're one of the bad mean people who's
>> bringing down the world with your crimes. You know, you kill people.
>> Oh, and shadowrunners who do are different. They're heroes of the common
>> man. You know, that ones that work at corps and try to be a productive
>> member of society. But not ones you encounter. Those are all bad mean
>> people, and shadowrunners are heroes and great guys. Yeah!
>>
>
> My we are feeling sarcastic aren't we. Borrowed Bob's blinders
did you?
>No, they aren't heroes of the common man, and no where did I say or imply
>that. What I did say is that not all of them are street punks.
No, you said all of them aren't criminals. That's a huge difference in
your arguement. Your example was of a criminal. Breaking and entering is
a crime, datat steals are a crime, casting a spell with intent to harm is a
crime, not having a SIN is a crime, carrying a weapon without the proper
permits is a crime. Shadowrunners=Criminals. QED.
Try and keep up.
Mike Broadwater
"I don't care if you don't like my manners. I don't like them much myself.
They're pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:15:54 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
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| [lots and lots of Drain discussion snipped]
|
| O-kaaaaay. I would like to put the Drain discussion on hold for a bit.
I've
| gotten a lot of good feedback, but it seems like things have gotten down
to
| the "is not! is so!" level of discussion.
DID NOT!!!!
Sorry. :)
<Snip>
| How about this: make Combat and Damaging Manipulation (DM) spells both
work
| just like Ranged Combat damage; the target of the spell has to stage the
| damage ALL the way down to nothing instead of just beating the caster on
| successes (I know DMs already work this way, but bear with me). The
| proceedure:
I think that this would clear up alot of the problem that I had with
raising the drain, and it would allow for a more diverse mage/shaman with
his starting force points. If the drain was raised to F then it would
bring it back into balance. I like it, but I think that the people who
already felt magic was too powerful might disagree with it. It also
changes to a question of the magic users skill as opposed to a race to see
who can get the highest attribute.
| EXAMPLE:
|
| Caric the street mage squares off against NightLife, the samurai : )
Stop...i'm blushing.
| The above is an extreme example: a Willpower 6 target SHOULD be tough to
| affect, but under this sceheme, Caric still did damage. Under the current
| system, he would have done none. Against an opponent of equal Will 4:
Agreed they should be tough, but not impossible which is what you have
addressed. The force 3 and 4 spells could now have more use and the Dart
and Missle spells would be more effective as well.
| How does something like this work for everyone?
Works for me...sorry about the wound Nightlife...Steve made me do it. :)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:32:22 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
In-Reply-To: <970707084349_1859766765@*******.mail.aol.com> from "Steve
Kenson" at Jul 7, 97 08:43:51 am
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|The one caveat I will have to put in is please, please don't tell me "the
|magic system should be more like Ars Magica, or Mage, or Earthdawn..." or any
|other role-playing game.
Not even Shadowrun 1st Ed????
The basic concepts of SR magic aren't going to
|change, but we might be able to fix some of the "feel" of it.
The "feel" of it was much better in first....
I know I'm flogging a dead horse, but please (pretty please <pretty please
with sugar on it>) look into the idea of variable staging......
:)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:36:59 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PRONE <downsa@******.EDU>
Subject: Barrier spells
hello all,
a question about barrier spells. a mage throws up a barrier spell and
is attacked by physical means (guns, arrows, whatever). does the barrier
degrade as a actual barrier upon being struck by something powerful, or not?
Aaron
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:41:13 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: William Monroe Ashe <wma6617@****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Physical Adpets, what do you play?
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afe6dca1aaed@[206.129.19.52]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
My physical adept was a detective. He had a large stealth, and
specialized in tracking and tailing people. He also had the "Body Morph"
power that was discussed on this list a while ago. He was a whole lot of
fun to play. I played him sort of like Mike Hammer, but a lot more
sophisticated.
Note: the body morph power could be abused very easily. I could see an
assassin with it being very hard to stop. My GM gave the power a very
serious drawback in that it caused my character to have a very "weird"
and distinctive aura that was immediately noticeable. We never had any
problem with it. It is a cool power, but only let your "responsible"
players have it.
Regards
Bill
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:44:10 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
In-Reply-To: <6263381593@**.opp.psu.edu> from "Brett Borger" at Jul 7,
97 10:22:52 am
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|
|> > Just wait until the "Hunter of dragons" shows up and then decides to
get
|> > Wired Reflexes 3 nd mabye orthoskin then tries to hunt you down. then
|> > you'll be praying for the passions to teach you to tie threads .
|>
|> One quesiton: WHY would good old Verji want wired reflexes? Looks to
|> me like he's powerful enough already...
|
|Simple. Verji's a Munchie. Isn't it obvious?
Ahhh, but Verji's a dual natured dude, in't'ee?
Which means, he'd be losing power on one side to gain a lesser power on the
other.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:19:01 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
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| > Caric throws his Mana Missile at Force 4, adding in 4 dice from his
Magic
| > Pool. He rolls 8 dice against TN 6 (NightLife's Will). He gets 1
success.
| >
| > Steve
|
| Just one thing: Caric would be veeeeery stupid if he had learnt the
| spell at level 4. Why not at level 6? costs just 2 spell points
| more, while it makes the spell really deadly. This was a problem in
| my group: every single combat spell was at level 6, and there was no
| thing that could have been done about it.
| Combat spells only make sense at level 6.
I would have for a few reasons.
1) The drain would now be F instead of F/2 which means I have to roll
higher number to keep from knocking myself out, and if this is a spell I
cast often then that is very important.
2) If I learn it at a lower force and it is still going to be effective
than I can use the other force points or karma for something else...as a
mage there is never enough of either of these.
3) A lower force spell is not as easy to detect when cast.
Well there it is straight from the horses mouth.
:)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:01:28 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
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| > > Drop heavy pistol damage from 9M to 6M (or to the same as SMGs, if
damage
| > > codes/rules will be changed).
| > Ummmm, *why*? Heavy pistol ammo (.357, .44, etc.) is _not_ used in
SMGs, they
| > use lighter rounds like the 9mm or 10mm. And the damage codes are low
enough
| > as-is, imo.
As I am sure Loki has already stated we lowered HP's to 6M in our campaign
as well, in fact I didn't know anyone else had done that. ANyway the way
that we look at is like this. The power of the attack is what is reduced
by armor, so it seems to be a measurement of the penetrating power of the
round. A HP, SMG, and assault rifle all do Moderate damage to what they
hit. An assault rifle should penetrate better in my opinion however.
Round size has something to do with it, but not nearly as much as SR would
make you think. An M-16 fires .223 caliber rounds and a Glock-17 fires
9mm. The glock fires a larger round, but will not penetrate anywhere near
as well as the m16. A second reason we made the change is that armor is
designed to stop bullets. With Hp's at a 9M damage code people were
feeling as though they had to walk around with layered armor all the time
in order to stay alive, now while we still layer armor on runs, when I go
to the local pub I can feel secure with just a jacket and I don't have to
wear that uncomfortable body armor. To me this seems more like what the
case would be. I wouldn't wear bod armor constantly in RL, why would
anyone else want to. If you were to shoot someone today with a 9mm round
from a pistol, and that person was wearing a vest, the would probab;y not
take any damage other thatn bruises or a cracked rib. I can see weapons
progressing as time passed, but wouldn't armor due the same? Finally we
wanted to bring machine pistols to a point that they made sense, and SMG's
were useful as well. With all the burst capable HP's out there now SMG's
were falling by the wayside.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:47:45 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (spoilers removed for the unknowing)
In-Reply-To: <199707071309.PAA06031@**********.xs4all.nl> from "Gurth" at
Jul
7, 97 03:10:24 pm
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|
|J. Keith Henry said on 12:35/ 6 Jul 97...
|
|> Hey, the SHADOWS!!!! Ultimate in Horror Manifestation (if they aren't,
|> nothing the frag is)
|
|I don't own any of the recent ED books, so I guess I've missed them. Maybe
|it's time to play ED sometime again...
Missed them? We're talking Babylon 5 / Earthdawn crossover here Gurth.....
:)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:36:04 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
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| Well, since SMGs have damage codes now equivalent to heavy pistols, and
| comparable concealabilities, why _ever_ bother with a heavy pistol? Why
| wouldn't they have been phased out long ago? Why do people now prefer
| (sometimes) a Colt Python to a .38 service revolver? Because it does
more
| damage, that's why. Some distinction between SMG calibers and heavy
pistol
| calibers (here I mean 9-10mm and the .44mag/11mm respectively) needs to
be
| made. Otherwise, no one will carry a heavy pistol unless they just like
the
| style better, whereas in reality (don't cringe when I say that) there are
| reasons to want the hand cannon that is the Ruger Warhawk or equivalent.
They
| knock *big* holes in things with one shot, whereas SMGs and assault
rifles
| concentrate on sending multiple lighter rounds at the target at once.
The m16
| round is honestly little, as are most SMG rounds, compared to any
manstopping
| handgun.
The round is smaller yes, but the bullet penatrates more effectively,
because of the velocity. In SR assault rifles, smg's, and HP's all do the
same damage...moderate. But apparently HP's penetrate barriers better. In
RL that is just not the case. A .44 will penetrate sure, but an assault
rifle can do it as well with a smaller round.
| And in a game balance light, reducing heavy pistols to 7M? Hmm, 2M to
resist,
| no one ever worries about pistols hurting them any more. The to-hit is
harder
| than the resistance test... Although if you've found it balanced i nyour
| compaigns, more power to you, I know what it'd do to mine.
You have to consider however that the defender needs more successes than
the attacker, and that in alot of cases will roll fewer dice.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:31:31 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
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| A Force 4 spell (mediocre), cast at a Willpower 6 opponent (max human)
was
| still able to cause damage. This damage didn't have to go through armor
and
| couldn't be staged down by a body test. This change would make combat
| spells WAY too powerful. If you wish combat spells to act like DMs, then
| make them face the same drain codes as DMs and give the opponent a
| resistance test to resist the damage. Nobody would use damaging
| manipulations if combat spells were this easy to cast and this
devastating
| in power. *Please* don't make that change...
The oponent would still get a resistance test. Combat spells will still
have higher target numbers and heaven help them if the opposition has
shielding. DM's will have lower target numbers, but the opponent gets some
or all of there impact armor. The drain would be high enough that it would
even out. The higher target numbers on combat spells would limit there
effectiveness in comparison to DM's.
| On another note, please consider taking elemental effect spells (e.g.
| fireball and hellblast) out of the combat spell section and making them
| damaging manipulations. Elemental effects on combat spells get kinda
| strange and there's been an endless debate/rant about the "real" drain
codes
| for Hellblast and the effects it would have. Simply moving these
| complicating aspects from one section and placing them in another would
make
| life a lot simpler all around.
This I agree with. Lets keep elemental effects in the manipulation
realm...it seems to make more sense. I know elemental effects on combat
spells tend to be less pronounced, but still.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:54:06 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
On Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:50:05 -0600 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
writes:
>I don't have the rules handy, does it actually say that the recovery
>costs are multiplied also? Cuz that doesn't make sense to me.
In a way, it does make a bit of sence.
Given the extremely delicate nature of the surgery (for alpha, beta,
gamma, etc.. grade) this could be justified in the intensive testing,
observations, alterations and general post-op stuff that they would do to
ensure that EVERYTHING is healing, connecting and interfacing at the
appropriate level.
In a nut shell, you can't go have massive brain surgery and then have a
podiatrist oversee your recovery.
~Tim (that and it's a bigger nuyen sink that way..)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:54:05 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: MANA vs PHYSICAL spell
On Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:40:10 +0200 Dion Scher <Dscher@****.CO.ZA> writes:
>Thanks for the reply, but I the responses are missing my question. I'm
>NOT asking whats the advantage of a ManaMissile but what's the
>DISADVANTAGE of a MANAmissile. Why would I bother, as a mage, to learn
>powermissile when I could learn ManaMissile. Statistically speaking, I
>will have a better chance of combatting enemies with ManaMissile. So
>why bother with PowerMissile?
Well, as great as ManaMissle is, it will to slightly less than JACK
against anything other than a living being.
Mana spells hit only living stuff, "Power-" spells take out *everything*
(cars, doors, drones, walls, pesky aircraft, people, critters, etc..)
~Tim
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:54:06 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
On Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:02:51 -0500 William Monroe Ashe
<wma6617@****.TAMU.EDU> writes:
>The Great Steve wrote:
>
>OK, I'm getting some good feedback. Here's Survey Question #3...
>
>One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more
>of a mystical/magical feel to it than it does now."
>******
>
>I am inclined to agree with the more "scientific" viewpoint. Most
people
>would approach magic using the only framewoek they have, which is a
>scientific/mathematical backgound. The shamans while using dancing,
>chanting etc etc would still view the big picture in a scientific way.
>
>i.e. "Well mana is this it obeys these 'rules' ... I access and control
>the mana via my totem, the ritual ..."
Nope, nope, nope.
Any shaman like that would probably be a closet hermetic who's only
fooling *himself*.
To hermetics, magic is a science with clearly defined laws, theories and
procedures.
To a shaman, magic is more of a living art or a debate with the natural
forces. You don't do things because of this and such law of metaphysics
and mana-flow dynamics, but rather cause it's what would make the spell
this time - as it may be different later.... Oh, I don't know, I'm more
of a scientific kinda guy to begin with, but I *know* that shamans don't
view it that way.
Just look at the two styles of spell/focus/ally/whatever designs.
Hermetics use complex mathematical formula, while shamans use a
sandpainting, or a sculpture or a song or something else.
~Tim
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:59:17 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells -- Level 6?
In-Reply-To: <E78EF579FF@********.uibk.ac.at>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 15:00 7/7/97 +0100, you wrote:
>> This is my biggest pet peeve, and I'm in the middle of writing an article
>> about it for TSS. Characters will 4 or 5 skills/spells at 6, and nothing
>> lower.
>
>the reason for combat spells exclusively at level 6 is obvious...
>since their level is the target number for defending against them...
>So there is absolutely nothing that could be done about it...
>wait..
The reason is obvious. To create a munchy character that can 'win' the
game alot easier. I've said this several times recently; A 'real' person
wouldn't and doesn't have several skills/spells at a high rating, they
would have more at various ratings. We are representing a real living
human being in this game, aren't we? Or is 'he' merely a sheet with some
high numbers on it to make the dice rolls easier?
>Hmm.. I see no reason to have skills only at level 6 since they don't
>influence a target number... Sure, you'll save a bit karma if you
>start with level 6 skills and learn the ones at lower level later,
>but I always thought I was the only one who had noticed...
Its cheaper to take skills at '6' during chargen, but its alot cheaper to
raise a couple skills from 3 --> 4 --> 5 than it is to start at 0 and work
your way up.
I'm working on some alternate chargen rules to encourage diversity in
skills. Stay tuned :)
-Aj
--
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
"Can I have a cup of angst to go with my un-happy meal?" -- Hi & Lois
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:58:06 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
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<snip just about everything that's gone before...>
This is really just devolving into a I'm right/ you're scum debate,
and to paraphrase Ford Fairlane; "Having this conversation is like
masturbating with a cheese grater. Kinda interesting at first, but
mostly painful.".
I think the 'conflicting' views expressed in the front of the
Shadowrun Companion prety much says it all. Not all runners are saints,
nor are they all viscously, amoral killers only out to make a buck. And
most are just people trying to get by. Every player should set his/her
own moral limits as to who she/he will or will not kill [ some of us
just have our meters turned lower than others, while some have the thing
completely off, and have smashed the control from the wall!]. You play
your cold hearted killers, I'll play my 'Saints' [we both cack just as
many people, I'm just more discriminatory about who catches a bullet
from me <GRIN>].
Kohl, the 'I try not to kill on principle if I don't have to, unless I
meet an out of control death dealer, who slags a innocents in the
crossfire, then the kid gloves are off!', physad ork gunslinger.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:51:15 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Shawn McCollum <Shawn_McCollum@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
I would really like to see some big changes in the way a characters
attributes and skills are handled. I have only one problem with the
current system and that is THE SKILL WEB. The skill web is just
really a relic of the first edition that should have been eradicated
in the second. If you remove the skill web concept from the game
though alot of things have to be revamped. I would like to see a
skill+attribute based system, which might make dice pools obsolete
also. The skill web just makes things to annoying, I hate counting
dots. Having an firearms skill and and then only getting a +2 when
using a vehicle mounted weapon or a guy with only ettiquette only
getting a +2 for negotation or interogation rolls. Please do not clog
the list with flames about my examples or ideas, please discuss only
the merits and flaws of getting rid of the skill web.
Andrew Payne III
-- Hater of the one line "That's stupid" reply posts
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:53:12 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties
In-Reply-To: <5401.199707071708@******.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Earthdawn Magic is very subtle. In shadowrun, without threadweaving, they
>use nothing but pure force casting raw magic.
>(There's no need for spell matrices yet, because very few areas have
>background counts of +5 (tainted enough to cause damage).
>When the Horrors arrived in ED, the entire astral plane was tainted to some
>extent, so matrices were essensial to filter the energy.
so, what would the background count be for the UCLA area?
/-justin@****.mcp.com----------------------jbell@****.mcp.com--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:07:19 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970707125312.007d21a0@***.iquest.net> from
"Jaymz" at
Jul 7, 97 12:53:12 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
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|
|>Earthdawn Magic is very subtle. In shadowrun, without threadweaving, they
|>use nothing but pure force casting raw magic.
|>(There's no need for spell matrices yet, because very few areas have
|>background counts of +5 (tainted enough to cause damage).
|>When the Horrors arrived in ED, the entire astral plane was tainted to some
|>extent, so matrices were essensial to filter the energy.
|so, what would the background count be for the UCLA area?
Why? What's so special about UCLA????
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:07:04 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties
In-Reply-To: <5824.199707071807@******.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:07 PM 7/7/97 +0100, you wrote:
>|
>|>Earthdawn Magic is very subtle. In shadowrun, without threadweaving, they
>|>use nothing but pure force casting raw magic.
>|>(There's no need for spell matrices yet, because very few areas have
>|>background counts of +5 (tainted enough to cause damage).
>|>When the Horrors arrived in ED, the entire astral plane was tainted to some
>|>extent, so matrices were essensial to filter the energy.
>
>|so, what would the background count be for the UCLA area?
>
>Why? What's so special about UCLA????
I don't have my cal free book around, but there's some sort of screwy stuff
in place due to the "magical pranks" UCLA and (Berkley?) sorry, don't know
caliornia very well.
Using magic is very haphazard and unpredictable in that area.
/-justin@****.mcp.com----------------------jbell@****.mcp.com--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:12:16 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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> Just look at the two styles of spell/focus/ally/whatever designs.
> Hermetics use complex mathematical formula, while shamans use a
> sandpainting, or a sculpture or a song or something else.
Well put.
And that is what I think the original intent of the question was.
I almost never play mages, because IMO the reduction of magic to a science
lacks the mystical feel that I really enjoy.
Shamans OTOH are loads of fun to play.
SR3 should stress the "color" differences betweem the traditions more than
it has so far IMO.
Explain more about the rituals of the hermetics (Some of you Talon stuff
would be great for this Steve. What was the name of that one SFTS story
where you had Talon making offerings to the elements? Maybe I'm
misremembering, but the whole bit about bowing to the east, west, north and
south actually made a mage feel "mystical" IMO)
Go back over shamans and explain about the shamanic mask that covers their
features when they cast a powerful spell. Let us know if a shaman can
actually, directly communicate with his totem like Sam Verner did in the
novels. Show us the different ways in which they intiiate/summon
allies/whatever.
It's not enough to say that "shamanic rituals can make frat keggers looks
tame in comparison" I want to see a stoned out coyote shaman smoking a
peace pipe in a sweat lodge, while eating handfuls of magic mushrooms.
Give us GM's more guidelines for making the shaman players stay within
totemic boundaries.
Just saying that the shaman can lose his magic if he does not act in
accordance with his totem is not enough, give detailed examples of proper
behavior for each totem.
This type of stuff will IMO go a looong way toward making magic more
mystical.
Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"I will ride the walrus. I will poke the invisible flowers. I have always
known how."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:17:41 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970707130704.007b0220@***.iquest.net> from
"Jaymz" at
Jul 7, 97 01:07:04 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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|I don't have my cal free book around, but there's some sort of screwy stuff
|in place due to the "magical pranks" UCLA and (Berkley?) sorry, don't know
|caliornia very well.
|
|Using magic is very haphazard and unpredictable in that area.
Ahhhh...
I doubt it's got a damaging background count....
Not even the Nazi concentration camps have damaging ones....
The place where the ....
Ooops.... <Spoilers>
That should be enough....
... bomb went off in Chi-town has a VERY high count, IIRC.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:16:54 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adpets, what do you play?
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 12:41 PM 7/7/97 -0500, William Monroe Ashe whispered:
>Note: the body morph power could be abused very easily. I could see an
>assassin with it being very hard to stop. My GM gave the power a very
>serious drawback in that it caused my character to have a very "weird"
>and distinctive aura that was immediately noticeable.
Well, it wasn't immediately noticeable, and the astrally projecting
character did state that he was going to scope your character out, and did
get a fair amount of successes on his perception...
By the by, the Body Morph power (probably called Chameleon or Morph many
moons ago on this list) did work out pretty well in game play. Not sure if
it's an idea being thought about for SR3.
-Thomas Deeny
Your Guide to Shadowrun -- http://shadowrun.miningco.com -- updated every
Wednesday!
Thomas's World is http://telltale.hart.org -- come visit!
One Line Movie Review:
"Face/Off -- Want to waste two and a half hours of your life?"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:21:52 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Barrier spells
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 13:36:59 -0500 (EST)"
<009B6E63.4EFBE3A0.66@******.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
You wrote:
> hello all,
> a question about barrier spells. a mage throws up a barrier spell and
> is attacked by physical means (guns, arrows, whatever). does the barrier
> degrade as a actual barrier upon being struck by something powerful, or not?
Don't see why it shouldn't. The rules don't call for an exception.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:20:23 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Physical Adpets, what do you play?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970707131653.00728b3c@***>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>By the by, the Body Morph power (probably called Chameleon or Morph many
>moons ago on this list) did work out pretty well in game play. Not sure if
>it's an idea being thought about for SR3.
does anybody by chance have the info for this ability?
/-justin@****.mcp.com----------------------jbell@****.mcp.com--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:06:35 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject: Re: [Admin] Bi-weekly Posting Guidelines.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:58 PM 7/6/97 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>Adam J said on 10:57/ 5 Jul 97...
>
>> On Friday July 4th Gurth Said:
>> >My real name is Bob. Bob Smith.
>> >So now you know.
>>
>> Wow that a really cool name there Bob!
>>
>> -Adam
>
>Hey! What did I tell you about mentioning my name where any idiot can read
>it?!
>
>:)
Hey, I take offense to this, Gurth. I'm not any idiot. I'm a very
specific kind of idiot. You don't find idiots like me just laying on the
ground, ya know. You've got to search for them.
This reminds me of something (the posting guidelines, not the idiot bit)
Is the FAQ being sent out to ppl who join yet? Or on some kind of regular
basis? I've gotten it once or twice since joining, but I can never quite
figure out why it was being sent or how often. I didn't get it when I
re-joined, that I'm sure of. I was just thinking that the FAQ would be
helpful as well as the posting guidelines.
Rasputin-the-trying-to-get-into-an-Sr-book-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
"An object at rest cannot be stopped" - The Mad Midnight Bomber Who Bombs
at Midnight
But his boss calls him: Mike Broadwater
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:25:15 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 10:01:28 -0700"
<199707071729.NAA15522@********.mcit.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
You wrote:
> If you were to shoot someone today with a 9mm round
> from a pistol, and that person was wearing a vest, the would probab;y not
> take any damage other thatn bruises or a cracked rib. I can see weapons
> progressing as time passed, but wouldn't armor due the same? Finally we
> wanted to bring machine pistols to a point that they made sense, and SMG's
> were useful as well. With all the burst capable HP's out there now SMG's
> were falling by the wayside.
This all dows derive from the idea of a 9mm pistol being a Heavy Pistol, but
I'll agree that assault rifles should have better penetration than pistols.
However, if the burst-fire HPs were a problem, why allow them? They're
basically high-calibre SMGs if they can burst-fire, as the Uzi III can only
burst-fire. Sure they have a smaller clip, but that's partly due just to the
size of the rounds...
And if the 9mm is a heavy pistol, why aren't there some bigger guns (aside from
the Ruger)? What about cannons like the Desert Eagle (which is what I always
thought the Ares Predator and Browning Max-power were, thus their original
small clip size in first ed.).
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:30:14 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: What's up with UCLA and Berkley??? [Was SR/ED Ties...]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Berkley and UCLA, continuing that long outstanding tradition of
intercolligiate pranks, began indulging in a massive series of magical
practical jokes over the years [water elementals exploding toilets,
igniting student's underware, astral 'panty raids', etc.], that they
actually disrupted the astral space between the two locations, resulting
in areas that cause power fluctuations in spells , with attendant drain
fluctuations [your Force 3 Powerball overloads into a Force 6, doing
twice the damage, and socking the user with the resulting drain! Or that
Force 6 going off as a Force 1, tickling your opponent!], astral shoals
and brambles [think coral reefs], and an increase in astrally active
critters!
It's a great place to catch mages unawares, as you're never sure
what's going to happen. And the students at both colleges are STILL
going at it!
Kohl, 'I was attacked by a flying roll of toilet paper, and had to shoot
my way out. :-]'
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:30:26 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 10:36:04 -0700"
<199707071748.NAA10788@********.mcit.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
You wrote:
> The round is smaller yes, but the bullet penatrates more effectively,
> because of the velocity. In SR assault rifles, smg's, and HP's all do the
> same damage...moderate. But apparently HP's penetrate barriers better. In
> RL that is just not the case. A .44 will penetrate sure, but an assault
> rifle can do it as well with a smaller round.
Assault rifle, yes, and the HPs and ARs are comparable (9M vs. 8M), if you're
really bothered by it, give the assault rifles a bit more or drop the HPs by 1.
That's what I would do anyway.
> You have to consider however that the defender needs more successes than
> the attacker, and that in alot of cases will roll fewer dice.
With Combat Pool and no limit to dice to resist damage? Nah. More dice, not
less. Unless the attacker really poured dice into the shot, and if they both
use as many dice as they can, the defender, with no no-more-than-your-
skill-in-combat-pool limit gets to use more dice to resist.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:55:43 -0800
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: david lowe <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Re: What's up with UCLA and Berkley??? [Was SR/ED Ties...]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 2:30 PM 7/7/97, Fisher, Victor wrote:
> Berkley and UCLA, continuing that long outstanding tradition of
>intercolligiate pranks, began indulging in a massive series of magical
>practical jokes over the years [water elementals exploding toilets,
>igniting student's underware, astral 'panty raids', etc.]
<Snippage>
Not to be the nit-picky Californian on the list, but Berkeley and UCLA are
about 350 miles apart and have had little or no traditional rivalry. UCLA
and USC, or Berkeley and Stanford, that's a different story. But then
again, I doubt anyone really wants to hear my "why the Cal-Free sourcebook
sucked" rant again.
D.
David R. Lowe (dlowe@****.com)
Photography/Graphic Design
"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:46:09 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
---David Buehrer wrote:
>
> I don't have the rules handy, does it actually say that the recovery
> costs are multiplied also? Cuz that doesn't make sense to me.
SSC, page 99:
"Doctor's fees and hospitalization are 50 times he rates listed on
page 145 of the Shadowrun basic rules. You cannot have the work done
at a clinic and then transfer to a cheaper place for recuperation."
Cybertechnology, page 44:
"For alpha- and beta grade cybersurgery, doctor's fees and
hospitalization are 50 times the rates listed on p. 145 of the
Shadowrun basic rules. For deltagrade cybersurgery, the fees are 200
times the rates listed."
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:43:27 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 13:51:15 -0500 (EST)"
<199707071758.AA18697@********.compuware.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
You wrote:
> I would really like to see some big changes in the way a characters
> attributes and skills are handled. I have only one problem with the
> current system and that is THE SKILL WEB. The skill web is just
> really a relic of the first edition that should have been eradicated
> in the second. If you remove the skill web concept from the game
> though alot of things have to be revamped. I would like to see a
> skill+attribute based system, which might make dice pools obsolete
> also.
Two problems with this: 1) it starts turning SR into The Storyteller system,
which grew out of SR in the first place, 2) Enormous numbers of dice you can
get with high atttributes and skills in the right places. Taking ST as an
example, Dex of 4-5, firearms of 4, you see 8-9 dice in an attack. Do you want
to see this in SR? Sounds pretty nasty to me. It's *possible* to get 10 dice
on a roll in ST if you're being munchy. Of course that's your full dice pool
for the round, no extra dice pools to dodge with... It's just that that many
dice in an attack is too much, imo. It would require a *major* revamp of the
SR rules to do attr+skill, it would change the game completely, a much bigger
change than happened from 1st to 2nd ed. I too like attr+skill better than
SR's way of handling it, but it's too ingrained in the system now.
The skill web just makes things to annoying, I hate counting
> dots. Having an firearms skill and and then only getting a +2 when
> using a vehicle mounted weapon or a guy with only ettiquette only
> getting a +2 for negotation or interogation rolls.
Well, the thing is, players could do it for the GM rather than forcing him to
do it, and it's not even used that much that I've seen, usually you pass 2 dots
and take a +4, or more.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:52:57 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
In-Reply-To: <199707071803.MAA13415@******> from "Shawn McCollum" at Jul
7,
97 01:51:15 pm
Content-Type: text
Shawn McCollum wrote:
|
| though alot of things have to be revamped. I would like to see a
| skill+attribute based system, which might make dice pools obsolete
| also. The skill web just makes things to annoying, I hate counting
Ditto on making a skill-attribute system (skill+attribute/2). Heck,
you could do it now if you wanted to (as a house rule), figuring out
what the closest attribute is on the skill web and linking the skill
to that. Those skills that are way out on the skill web (more than 2
dots from an attribute) could be "solo" skills (they aren't averaged
with any attribute). And if someone doesn't have the skill they roll
half their attribute at +2. If it's a "solo" skill it can't be
attempted at all. Anyway, I'd like to see something like that.
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Observe your co-worker's interaction with the computer mouse. If he
is using it to manipulate the cursor, he's human. If he's using it
as a foot pedal, he's your boss.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:55:47 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
In-Reply-To: <199707071848.MAA15969@******> from "Loki" at Jul 7,
97 11:46:09 am
Content-Type: text
Loki wrote:
|
| ---David Buehrer wrote:
| >
| > I don't have the rules handy, does it actually say that the recovery
| > costs are multiplied also? Cuz that doesn't make sense to me.
|
| SSC, page 99:
| "Doctor's fees and hospitalization are 50 times he rates listed on
| page 145 of the Shadowrun basic rules. You cannot have the work done
| at a clinic and then transfer to a cheaper place for recuperation."
|
| Cybertechnology, page 44:
| "For alpha- and beta grade cybersurgery, doctor's fees and
| hospitalization are 50 times the rates listed on p. 145 of the
| Shadowrun basic rules. For deltagrade cybersurgery, the fees are 200
| times the rates listed."
Thanks Loki.
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Observe your co-worker's interaction with the computer mouse. If he
is using it to manipulate the cursor, he's human. If he's using it
as a foot pedal, he's your boss.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:55:52 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: What's up with UCLA and Berkley??? [Was SR/ED Ties...]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I wrote:
> Berkley and UCLA, continuing that long outstanding tradition of
>intercolligiate pranks, began indulging in a massive series of magical
>practical jokes over the years [water elementals exploding toilets, igniting
>student's underware, astral 'panty raids', etc.]
>
><Snippage>
>
>David Lowe wrote:
>Not to be the nit-picky Californian on the list, but Berkeley and UCLA are
>about 350 miles apart and have had little or no traditional rivalry. UCLA and
>USC, or Berkeley and Stanford, that's a different story. But then again, I
>doubt anyone really wants to hear my "why the Cal-Free sourcebook sucked"
>rant again.
>
>Victor writes:
> Sorry, David. Just repeating what the book says. I personally like the
>idea of the 'Astral Bramble' area, but I can't understand your disagreement
>with the two colleges in question. Maybe if the writers'd done their
>research, and picked two colleges closer together and with more of a history?
>
>'It's sh*t like this, Vincent, that's gonna bring this situation to a head!'
>
>Victor
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:53:25 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 14:12:16 -0400"
<199707071806.OAA19270@***.ncweb.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
You wrote:
> Go back over shamans and explain about the shamanic mask that covers their
> features when they cast a powerful spell.
Thought it was pretty clearly explained myself, and I've played several shamans
over the years.
Let us know if a shaman can
> actually, directly communicate with his totem like Sam Verner did in the
> novels. Show us the different ways in which they intiiate/summon
> allies/whatever.
Some examples would be good, but it's also an area where the GM and player can
have a lot of fun being creative, and laying down specific 'this is how it's
done' isn't a good idea.
> It's not enough to say that "shamanic rituals can make frat keggers looks
> tame in comparison" I want to see a stoned out coyote shaman smoking a
> peace pipe in a sweat lodge, while eating handfuls of magic mushrooms.
Um, I think I can use my imagination for this, the basic rulesbook doesn't need
to go in detail into this, any more than it goes into deep detail on what
sammies do in 'off-hours'.
> Give us GM's more guidelines for making the shaman players stay within
> totemic boundaries.
> Just saying that the shaman can lose his magic if he does not act in
> accordance with his totem is not enough, give detailed examples of proper
> behavior for each totem.
Again, I think the preferences for this vary from group to group too much for
guidelines to be really useful. Totems are vague, they encompass the entirety
of the idea of an animal or natural element, no hard-and-fast rules. An
example or two, again, might help here.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:59:02 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
In-Reply-To: <199707071747.LAA12218@******> from "Caric" at Jul 7,
97 10:19:01 am
Content-Type: text
Caric wrote:
|
| | Just one thing: Caric would be veeeeery stupid if he had learnt the
| | spell at level 4. Why not at level 6? costs just 2 spell points
| | more, while it makes the spell really deadly. This was a problem in
| | my group: every single combat spell was at level 6, and there was no
| | thing that could have been done about it.
| | Combat spells only make sense at level 6.
|
| 3) A lower force spell is not as easy to detect when cast.
And that's one that I keep forgetting about as a GM, but am making it
a point to enforce more frequently. "I chuck a Force 6 ManaBolt."
"Congradulations, you've just drawn the fire of every other security
guard, as they shout `Mage behind the dumpster!'."
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Observe your co-worker's interaction with the computer mouse. If he
is using it to manipulate the cursor, he's human. If he's using it
as a foot pedal, he's your boss.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:02:34 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: What's up with UCLA and Berkley??? [Oops, I made a booboo...]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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I should have typed '...but I CAN understand your dissagreement
with the two colleges in question', NOT can't. Sorry.
Victor
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:03:21 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
---Justin Pinnow wrote:
>
> Here's another suggestion. How about you use the standard magical
misfire
> rules (basing it on the force of the spell), BUT when casting a
spell you
> make an extra wound modified (4) test with your sorcery skill. Every
> success earned offsets one 1 rolled while casting the spell. This
does
> NOT, however, apply to rolling all 1's. That is a botch, and can
only be
> avoided with karma, per the normal rules. Of course, there is no
need for
> making this extra test unless you are going to misfire with the way
the
> dice rolled. If you don't roll enough 1's to misfire, just don't
make this
> test. This test is an attempt to hold the magic together in the
form of
> the spell being cast, while it is trying to come apart at the seams.
I
> allows for knowledge of magic to offset some of the hazards of
stuffing too
> much mana into too small of a base spell. Comments?
It's an idea. However, I'm a firm believer in K.I.S.S. and don't like
adding extra die rolls and math to the system unless deemed absolutely
necessary. Plus, it doesn't tie in with the other skill rolls where a
player rolls the dice and counts how many 1's he got...is it >= your
skill? Yes? Well you just botched it!
Something like you're suggesting actually offers a mage two chances to
avoid an opps in spell casting: first they have to roll the 1's on the
Spell casting in the first place. Then is they do get a number of 1's,
they get a second roll to offest those. A sammy, rigger or decker
doesn't get to roll some theory or other type of skill to offest their
1's rolled in firearms, car or computer.
===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:06:41 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Barrier spells
In-Reply-To: <199707071738.LAA11789@******> from "VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP
PRONE" at Jul 7, 97 01:36:59 pm
Content-Type: text
VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PRONE wrote:
|
| hello all,
| a question about barrier spells. a mage throws up a barrier spell and
| is attacked by physical means (guns, arrows, whatever). does the barrier
| degrade as a actual barrier upon being struck by something powerful, or not?
You've stumbled onto one of the "Great Debates". Take the easy way
out and do it however you want :) A couple of options are:
Barrier Spells do degrade as per the rules, disappating when they're
reduced to zero.
Ditto, but they refresh on the caster's next action (assuming he's
sustaining it, if it's quickened at the end of the combat turn).
Ditto, but they refresh at the end of the phase.
Barrier Spells don't degrade.
Have Fun, Buy Shadowrun Products (or is that the other way around?),
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Observe your co-worker's interaction with the computer mouse. If he
is using it to manipulate the cursor, he's human. If he's using it
as a foot pedal, he's your boss.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:10:39 -0800
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 18:39 7/6/97 EST, VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PRONE wrote:
> i believe that tir tairngire is the
><meta>physical location of city of spires, and the elves that lived there
(such
>as harly) did not and will not sprout thorns.
The City of Spires was somewhere north of the Blood Wood, which is north of
the Black Sea in Eurasia. It *does* seem that Tir Tairngire has roots in
the Blood Wood, and Tir na nOg has roots in the elven culture from before
the Ritual of Thorns.
--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:24:44 -0800
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: david lowe <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Re: What's up with UCLA and Berkley??? [Was SR/ED Ties...]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 2:55 PM 7/7/97, Fisher, Victor wrote:
>>Victor writes:
>> Sorry, David. Just repeating what the book says. I personally like the
>>idea of the 'Astral Bramble' area, but I can't understand your disagreement
>>with the two colleges in question. Maybe if the writers'd done their
>>research, and picked two colleges closer together and with more of a history?
IHMO research and the Cal-Free Sourcebook had little in common...
D.
David R. Lowe (dlowe@****.com)
Photography/Graphic Design
"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:16:51 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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> From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
> Date: Monday, July 07, 1997 3:03 PM
<Snip>
> It's an idea. However, I'm a firm believer in K.I.S.S. and don't like
> adding extra die rolls and math to the system unless deemed absolutely
> necessary. Plus, it doesn't tie in with the other skill rolls where a
> player rolls the dice and counts how many 1's he got...is it >= your
> skill? Yes? Well you just botched it!
I know, I prefer KISS too. But I haven't found a way to implement the rule
of 1 without it going overboard and not allowing skilled mages to cast low
level spells without a ton of worries about misfiring.
> Something like you're suggesting actually offers a mage two chances to
> avoid an opps in spell casting: first they have to roll the 1's on the
> Spell casting in the first place. Then is they do get a number of 1's,
> they get a second roll to offest those. A sammy, rigger or decker
> doesn't get to roll some theory or other type of skill to offest their
> 1's rolled in firearms, car or computer.
Um, actually, I believe you have missed something. I stated that this new
roll only applies to magical misfires that aren't botches. Botches can't
be avoided without the use of karma...regardless of what type of a botch it
is. Keep in mind that a magical misfire isn't necessarily a botch...just a
number of 1's rolled equal to the base force of the spell or the skill
being rolled. Therefore, not all the dice have to come up as 1's to
misfire....therefore, most misfires aren't botches. This makes it too
harsh on skilled magicians, thus the extra rule. After all, the magical
misfire rules add to the amount of bookkeeping necessary anyway. If you
choose to implement them into your game, you should make sure they are
balanced. The way they are in the companion, a skilled mage can cast a
force 1 or 2 spell and misfire it quite often. Not very realistic.
> ===
>
> @>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:18:17 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Physical Adpets, what do you play?
In-Reply-To: <199707070130.TAA20903@******> from "Jaymz" at Jul 6,
97 08:25:48 pm
Content-Type: text
Jaymz wrote:
|
| What sort of characters do you play when playing a PA?
The Troll/Martial Artist PA :):) I've also seen the Thief PA (Astral
Perception, Extra Stealth dice, Enhanced Reaction).
| They never will be anywhere near as powerful as a sammy, right?
It would be more accurate to say that a PA will never fill a Sammy's
role. The opposite is also true.
| What are the advantages of playing one in SRII?
Good magic defense (especially when initiated) and good close combat
abilities. More accepted than Sams and Mages (everyone loves Bruce Lee).
| The last time I really played was SRI, where Adpets seemed to be more
| powerful.
Oh yeah, SRI PAs were Munchkin Magnets (no offense). They're a gentler,
kinder people now. Also, keep in mind that they're priority B.
| I know this is probably an old subject, but pointers to relative texts
| would be extremely helpful.
The BBB, Grimmy II, and Awakenings. There's also some stuff on Paolo's web
site (there's an easy to find link to his page from mine :)
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Observe your co-worker's interaction with the computer mouse. If he
is using it to manipulate the cursor, he's human. If he's using it
as a foot pedal, he's your boss.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:41:24 -0800
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 08:43 7/7/97 -0400, Steve Kenson wrote:
>One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more of a
>mystical/magical feel to it than it does now." I'm curious about the idea,
>since I don't quite understand it. Since SR magic is currently (IMHO) based
>on about 80% real-world magic theory and 20% fantasy magic (fireballs and
>such) it feels pretty "mystical" to me. I'd like some feedback on the issue.
>Is SR magic "magical" enough? If not, how could it be better?
I'd say it's closer to 30% magic theory and 70% fantasy gaming, personally.
(I'm a long-time Ars Magica player, and Shadowrun elides a *lot* of the
nitty gritty of magic.)
Astral quests are an excellent part of the system; you might want to clarify
for 3rd Ed where your karma pool refreshes during a quest. (We play that
it refreshes each time you get to a new test, and still have serious trouble
getting Great Form spirits of any respectable size.) They're one of the
most fun parts of the SR system, IMO, because they let you change genre
when you're in the mood for a different setting without requiring people to
create new characters, learn new game systems, etc.
The mystical side of life for hermetic mages seems under-represented.
There's plenty of material about shamans and their totems, but not a lot
about being a practicing hermetic mage.
Centering is one of the least magical things about being an Initiate.
The idea is excellent-- you have a particular focusing skill you use to
get into that magical frame of mind-- but if you look at the timescale
of the game, it just doesn't make sense that you'd have any time to actually
*use* the skill in combat. (Let's say your Centering skill is chanting in
Latin. Each word you chant drops your initiative number by 1, since this
isn't Champions and soliloquies aren't free. How many words do you need
to chant to get in the right frame of mind?) That would be good to clarify.
If you want to make things more magical, I'd suggest adding more ritual to
the system. Currently, spells are something you can dash off in an instant.
Try expanding the definition of the expendable fetish to include a ritual
instead of some pre-prepared packet of something, so you have magicians
drawing circles on the ground with not-terribly-mystical chalk instead of
having to buy things from a talismonger. (Though there should be more
examples of fetishes-- you might introduce the notion that every spellcaster
has to pick an appropriate fetish for their particular spells, and force
the players of magicians to come up with ideas when they learn spells.)
Other things that make things more magical are adding links to myth and
symbol,
but that's really tricky. Ars Magica makes it easy because you're *in*
the world of folktales; Shadowrun is very much about having the truth
*behind* the folktales UGE'ing into existence and chewing the bumper
off your car. Coming up with problems that are better solved through
magical thinking-- involving aesthetics, symbols, correspondences-- rather
than mechanical thinking could do that, but that's not easy to do.
Introducing some critter and/or spirit powers that are based in such thinking,
with corresponding weaknesses, would be a good way of doing it, as would
introducing such patterns in the spell design system, if you can figure
out a way to make them plausible. (I can't think of anything off the top
of my head, but it's hard for me to get into that frame of mind on a moment's
notice.)
One mechanic that I've been toying with recently is divination. (I stole
this from someone else's fantasy game that I heard about years ago.) If
a PC who is magically active wants to perform divination, have them pick
a method that the GM knows about. (This is a good thing to prearrange at
character creation time.) The character rolls their Magic rating against
a target number known only to the GM, then the GM goes away for a bit,
lays out the tarot cards/rune stones/I Ching coins, and brings them back
for the player to interpret. This ignores the notion that the character
might have more skill in interpreting the reading than the player, but
it makes for much more fun than AD&D "weal or woe?" auguries.
--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:01:12 +0000
Reply-To: hardware@*******.ab.ca
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <hardware@*******.datanet.ab.ca>
From: Shane Courtrille <hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Barrier Rating Rules part 1
In-Reply-To: <199707071309.PAA06136@**********.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Example A1: Carmen aims her Ares Predator at BlackFire, who's behind an
> armored glass wall (Barrier Rating 4). The Predator does 9M damage, and
> Carmen has loaded it with regular rounds. From the table, the Damage
> Barrier Rating against regular ammo is equal to the Barrier Rating x 2,
> which makes it 8 in this case. The Power Level of 9 exceeds this, so the
> Barrier Rating is reduced by 1 (to 3) and a 50 cm diameter hole is made in
> the glass.
>
Does this modify the power of the actual bullet in anyway or does it
keep on going? (could be shes shooting into a nuclear reactor control
room *shrug*) ;)
Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca
Being in love... What a trip...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:29:54 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
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| It turned out that he got torked then his buddy got torked, then onto
| harrassment again with finally his buddy telling me to F-off. Hopefully
now
| theyre gone for good. Sorry for going off on you and a couple of others
in
| this debate though I've had a lousy week. But on the bright side I just
| turned 24 as of 25 minutes ago.
Happy Birthday Nightlife...if you make it to the con I owe you a drink.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:36:59 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain NO officially [OT]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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| > >And again, Nightlife, sorry if I offended.
| >
| > It's time for a group hug everybody. ;-)
| If you say so <Raven goes around and hugs Nightlife, MC23, Bull,
| Gurth, Steven and all the others>
| Think that's enough ;)
<Caric wipes away a tear>
I love you guys.
<much gasping as I try to not lose it again>
:)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:09:56 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
---Justin Pinnow wrote:
>
> I know, I prefer KISS too. But I haven't found a way to implement
the rule
> of 1 without it going overboard and not allowing skilled mages to
cast low
> level spells without a ton of worries about misfiring.
Exactly. Which is why I came to the list on this question after it
came up in our game. I think what I suggested before on basing it off
the Sorcery skill, but allowing all 1's to take precedence, will prove
to be a healthy compromise in our game.
<snip>
> Um, actually, I believe you have missed something. I stated that
this new
> roll only applies to magical misfires that aren't botches. Botches
can't
> be avoided without the use of karma...regardless of what type of a
botch it
> is. Keep in mind that a magical misfire isn't necessarily a
botch...just a
> number of 1's rolled equal to the base force of the spell or the
skill
> being rolled. Therefore, not all the dice have to come up as 1's to
> misfire....therefore, most misfires aren't botches. This makes it
too
> harsh on skilled magicians, thus the extra rule. After all, the
magical
> misfire rules add to the amount of bookkeeping necessary anyway. If
you
> choose to implement them into your game, you should make sure they
are
> balanced. The way they are in the companion, a skilled mage can
cast a
> force 1 or 2 spell and misfire it quite often. Not very realistic.
OK, I see where you're coming from on this now. We don't use the
misfire rules from SRC, so what you'd suggested didn't tie directly
into how we're playing things. We're just going off the sugested rules
in FoF where 1's equal to or greater than the skill being used is a
botch. Then a botch is a botch, no misfires or other levels just one
big Oops!
Thanx for the input though. :o)
===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:35:00 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: introduction
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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| Gabriel is a player in my campaign, so I guess I'll have to be careful
| about what I say on the list now...
Uh oh...Gabriel just so you know Bull and I have started a support group
for players with evil GM's...we meet every Thursday. You're the new guy so
you have to bring the cookies. :)
| > "Uhuhu, I'm all shook up @:-)"
| In case anyone's wondering, this somewhat strange behavior is due to
David
| Lowe's Elvis adventure, which I ran recently... Very funny :)
Ooooo...our first play test of that particular gem...it went well it seems.
Any juice details?
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:24:37 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
---"Bruce H. Nagel" wrote:
>
> Assault rifle, yes, and the HPs and ARs are comparable (9M vs. 8M),
if you're
> really bothered by it, give the assault rifles a bit more or drop
the HPs by 1.
> That's what I would do anyway.
As a GM I'm usually against raising somethings power to solve an
issue, I'd much rather decrease a different area to bring about
balance.
As you suggest, we did drop the HP power level. We just cut it the
base down to 6M since dropping it by 1 or 2 had it equal to an Assault
Rifle or SMG and that's what wasn't making sense to us. Also as Caric
has said, Machine Pistols were making no sense to us. On burst the
were doing the same as a heavy pistol, but with recoil and a base
round of 6L v.s. 9m when figuring penetration against barriers and the
like. Why would anyone chose the MP over the HP? Now, with a HP doing
6M and an MP doing 9M on burst, there's a reason someone may chose one
over the other.
> > You have to consider however that the defender needs more
successes than
> > the attacker, and that in alot of cases will roll fewer dice.
> With Combat Pool and no limit to dice to resist damage? Nah. More
dice, not
> less. Unless the attacker really poured dice into the shot, and if
they both
> use as many dice as they can, the defender, with no
no-more-than-your-
> skill-in-combat-pool limit gets to use more dice to resist.
Keep in mind, most of the opposition he's referring to are NPC's with
threat ratings primarily of 3 and 4. That's not a boatload of dice
being dumped into a damage resistance test from a pool somewhere.
Also, firefights in our games aren't usually your two gunslingers
squared off in an alley one-on-one. My players aren't usually throwing
all 7, 8 or 9 combat pool dice into damage resistance. They usually
have to worry if another one or two of the guards might be taking a
shot at them before their next action, or if they should throw a few
pool dice into their shot to drop a goon before he has a chance to go.
Very rarely are all or even most of a pool being dumped into damage
resistance.
All in all, keep in mind this thread is blatantly a "this is how it is
in our game, your game may be different" issue. :o)
===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:24:54 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
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| OK, I'm getting some good feedback. Here's Survey Question #3...
Uh oh...my inbox hasn't quite recovered from the last one. :)
| One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more
of a
| mystical/magical feel to it than it does now." I'm curious about the
idea,
| since I don't quite understand it. Since SR magic is currently (IMHO)
based
| on about 80% real-world magic theory and 20% fantasy magic (fireballs and
| such) it feels pretty "mystical" to me. I'd like some feedback on the
issue.
| Is SR magic "magical" enough? If not, how could it be better?
I have always viewed magic as a very personal thing in SR, in other words
one person may see it as a mystical event putting them in harmony with
nature, and another sees it as a series of mathematical equations. This
leaves room for all of the religious outlooks and different types of
"shamanism" (including druids and the like). I always felt that the Mojo
was as mystical as the guy who released it.
| The one caveat I will have to put in is please, please don't tell me "the
| magic system should be more like Ars Magica, or Mage, or Earthdawn..." or
any
| other role-playing game. The basic concepts of SR magic aren't going to
| change, but we might be able to fix some of the "feel" of it.
Maybe just add some more archtypes or examples of different magical
outlooks. I think that descriptions of medicaine lodges and circles aren't
necessary as a fixed type, SR has always been good about letting the
magician color his magic how he wants. Maybe just throw in some examples
to stir the creative juices.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:30:14 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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| Simple. Verji's a Munchie. Isn't it obvious?
Of Course!!!!!
| -=SwiftOne=-
|
| (I should know better than to post my Fixers bit after SR3....no one
| will notice it. :( Also: SR3: The Big Red. Count on it.)
Don't worry Swifty i'm getting there honest. I prefer The Big "Woodchuck
White" Book
:)
OUCH!!!! (pre-twap/flame response)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:37:11 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
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| > | Nightlife I have come to the conclusion that if you don't like magic
| > | in your game, play CP2020. It doesn't have any.
| >
| > I think was kind of a cheap shot and unnecessary. NIghtlife has never
even
| > hinted that he wanted to do away with magic, just that he feels the
normal
| > "default" drain is too light. Lets try to keep it friendly, we're
better
| > than that.
|
| Your right, and you should read all your mail before replying, as
| this thread ended this weekend with apologies all around.
I read that after I had already sent this (I had 549 messages waiting this
morning ewww) Sorry about that.
Am I too late for the group hug?
:)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:03:46 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
MIME-version: 1.0
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>For some reason this made me laugh really hard. :)
>I can just see a man dressed in black coming to Nightlife and they would be
>calling each other "Patriot," and such. Sorry the loyalist part just got
>to me. =)
>
>Proceed.
Well if the CIA everm offered me a black suit, shades ,and the tie I'd take
them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:56:58 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@*****.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707072049.PAA20920@********.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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On 7 Jul 97 at 13:37, Caric wrote:
> I read that after I had already sent this (I had 549 messages waiting this
> morning ewww) Sorry about that.
A very busy weekend indeed.
> Am I too late for the group hug?
We'll just have another one! :)
--
=DREKHEAD========================================================
drekhead@***.net --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html ---
=================================================================
=================================================================
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot
stomping on a human face...forever. -George Orwell
=================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:46:15 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
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Losthalo Wrote:
| > If you were to shoot someone today with a 9mm round
| > from a pistol, and that person was wearing a vest, the would probab;y
not
| > take any damage other thatn bruises or a cracked rib. I can see
weapons
| > progressing as time passed, but wouldn't armor due the same? Finally
we
| > wanted to bring machine pistols to a point that they made sense, and
SMG's
| > were useful as well. With all the burst capable HP's out there now
SMG's
| > were falling by the wayside.
| This all dows derive from the idea of a 9mm pistol being a Heavy Pistol,
but
| I'll agree that assault rifles should have better penetration than
pistols.
| However, if the burst-fire HPs were a problem, why allow them? They're
| basically high-calibre SMGs if they can burst-fire, as the Uzi III can
only
| burst-fire. Sure they have a smaller clip, but that's partly due just to
the
| size of the rounds...
|
| And if the 9mm is a heavy pistol, why aren't there some bigger guns
(aside from
| the Ruger)? What about cannons like the Desert Eagle (which is what I
always
| thought the Ares Predator and Browning Max-power were, thus their
original
| small clip size in first ed.).
If you want to consider them .50 cal that's fine too, but you have to
assume that the technology of assault rifles and SMG's have developed as
well. They may be using higher calibers and/or more advance loads to make
them keep the same differences from pistols as guns today. We pretty much
consider a 9mm to be the top end of the LP class in our game truthfully,
but a 10mm or a .40 would be the low end of the HP class, if that puts it
into perspective from our standpoint. As far as disallowing the burst fire
capable pistols, we could have done that, but after discussion we felt that
over all heavy pistols needed to be reduced for role=playing and realism.
I just can't see the difference between a light and a heavy pistol being 3
to 5 in power AND a damage catagory...it just doesn't feel right. The 6M
damage feels right and has already made a positive influence on our game.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:56:01 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
In-Reply-To: <199707072049.PAA19971@********.mcit.com> from "Caric" at
Jul 7,
97 01:30:14 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
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|Don't worry Swifty i'm getting there honest. I prefer The Big "Woodchuck
|White" Book
|
|:)
|
|OUCH!!!! (pre-twap/flame response)
Caric, Caric, Caric....
I'm not going to flame you or thwap you......
............ yet...............
I'm going to wait, and then thwap you when you're not ready for it......
<EGMLOL>
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:05:02 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 08:06 AM 7/5/97 GMT, Shadowrun ML demon <shadowrn-ml@*******.HANSE.DE>
wrote:
>Uhm. You are partially right, but there is one major thing you do not
>pay attention to: While Sammies have a split up preference between
>Karma and NuYen the PhysAdsa just need Karma. Sammies can always do a
>run for some company that builds wiz Cyberware and get one of their
>products in reward. There is nothing comparable to this for a PhysAd.
If you have a GM who gives stuff without you having to work for it. Saying
that a sam can get wiz gear and lots of cash just by doing a run or two
isn't any different than a physad who gets karma off a run or two. You
forget that if your GM gives out money and stuff easily, then there's
another one that gives out ton's of karma. And there are plenty who are
right in the middle. My current GM doesn't hand out nuyen and tech, nor
does he hand out karma. Neither would I.
Rasputin-the-trying-to-get-into-an-Sr-book-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/
The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:08:48 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Robert G. Brook" <rgb1@**.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Consolidated Health Spells
In-Reply-To: <199707060131.VAA09575@*********.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, MC23 wrote:
> I have never understood the need for separate spells for healing
> different levels of disease, poison, raise/lower attribute, etc. Why
> would anyone take the lower levels of these spells knowing that they
> might need one of a different level. These should all be unified like
> Heal and Treat were when 2nd edition came out. It just makes more sense
> to do so. They should be 1 spell with different drains for the different
> levels.
I also favor adding success thresholds for the increasing levels. For
example, a light (or +1) spell requires at least 1 success; a medium (or
+2) spell requires at least 2 successes; a serious (or +3) spell requires
at least 3 successes; and, a deadly (or +4) spell requires at least 4
successes. This tends to weaken the heal and treat spells a bit, but I
think that is necessary in my game to prevent the energizer bunny
syndrome.
--Glenn Brook
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:55:46 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
MIME-Version: 1.0
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| You wrote:
| > The round is smaller yes, but the bullet penatrates more effectively,
| > because of the velocity. In SR assault rifles, smg's, and HP's all do
the
| > same damage...moderate. But apparently HP's penetrate barriers better.
In
| > RL that is just not the case. A .44 will penetrate sure, but an
assault
| > rifle can do it as well with a smaller round.
| Assault rifle, yes, and the HPs and ARs are comparable (9M vs. 8M), if
you're
| really bothered by it, give the assault rifles a bit more or drop the HPs
by 1.
| That's what I would do anyway.
That's cool, but that puts the assault rifles the same as HP's when I still
contend that the penetration power is not the same.
| > You have to consider however that the defender needs more successes
than
| > the attacker, and that in alot of cases will roll fewer dice.
| With Combat Pool and no limit to dice to resist damage? Nah. More dice,
not
| less. Unless the attacker really poured dice into the shot, and if they
both
| use as many dice as they can, the defender, with no no-more-than-your-
| skill-in-combat-pool limit gets to use more dice to resist.
And then when the second shot hits?
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:58:24 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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David wrote:
| | 3) A lower force spell is not as easy to detect when cast.
|
| And that's one that I keep forgetting about as a GM, but am making it
| a point to enforce more frequently. "I chuck a Force 6 ManaBolt."
| "Congradulations, you've just drawn the fire of every other security
| guard, as they shout `Mage behind the dumpster!'."
Yup yup yup...wax the mage is still a good street rule...ya never know what
those rascals are gonna do. Sammies are at least marginally predictable.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 17:20:34 -0700
Reply-To: mbreton@**.netcom.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: SR3 & Valid Topics
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> >I'd drop the optional metatypes altogether, revamp the Flaws so as to
> >eliminate the hosers (Lightning Reflexes, Magic Invulnerability...)
> Since those are options from the Companion, that's where they should
> stay. This is about the CORE RULES, not what to do to the entire system
> or how to make the book over a thousand pages. Please let's keep ideas
> relavant to what's in the main rule book already and anything else that
> HAS to be in there. If it's in another book, then you should ask yourself
> if there is something wrong with an existing rule where it is at.
> Optional and additional rules are fine where they are at. Anything that
> need to cover or CORRECT the main book should be there. Rules for
> handling Stealth and the expanded Threat ratings are two examples of what
> should be in the book. Metavarients and Edges & Flaws are fine where they
> are at.
That was sent in reply to (?) Bull's comment, who included metatypes and
flaws/edges in consideration. Personally, if any rules got added to
Basic Third, I'd think those rules would be it. It's /not/ going to
bulk the book up at all; it is relevant to the various methods of
character creation. Most people I know use them to a limited degree (in
that some of the Edges are deliberately broken - sigh.)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:36:22 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Duane LaFlotte <DLaFlotte@*******.COM>
Subject: News Server
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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I was wondering if there is a news server that is for public use that
would have a shadowrun forum ? if so could I please have this address ?
Thanks
Duane
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:41:06 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: News Server
In-Reply-To:
<c=US%a=_%p=Valinor%l=MHT01-MSX-01-970707213622Z-14601@*******.valinor.com> from
"Duane LaFlotte" at Jul
7, 97 05:36:22 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
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|
|I was wondering if there is a news server that is for public use that
|would have a shadowrun forum ? if so could I please have this address ?
News SERVER?
Thre is a news GROUP available on most news servers called
rec.games.frp.cyber which deals with shadowrun and cyberpunk (and other
cyber based games)....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:47:53 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Duane LaFlotte <DLaFlotte@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: News Server
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Then only news server that I know is msnews.microsoft.com and they dont
have any rec.games.frp.cyber they are strictly Microsoft stuff. I was
wondering if there was another server that I could connect to that would
be public domain and that would have that rec.games.frp.cyber
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Spike [SMTP:u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK]
>Sent: Monday, July 07, 1997 5:41 PM
>To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
>Subject: Re: News Server
>
>|
>|I was wondering if there is a news server that is for public use that
>|would have a shadowrun forum ? if so could I please have this address ?
>
>News SERVER?
>Thre is a news GROUP available on most news servers called
>rec.games.frp.cyber which deals with shadowrun and cyberpunk (and other
>cyber based games)....
>--
>_____________________________________________________________________________
>_
>|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?"
>|
>|Andrew Halliwell |
>|
>|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control
>|
>|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..."
>|
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+
>|
>|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :(
>|
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:08:06 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
| Caric, Caric, Caric....
|
| I'm not going to flame you or thwap you......
|
|
| ............ yet...............
|
| I'm going to wait, and then thwap you when you're not ready for it......
|
|
| <EGMLOL>
Ya know Spike you're alot like the Spanish Inquisition in that regard.
:)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:54:44 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: News Server
In-Reply-To:
<c=US%a=_%p=Valinor%l=MHT01-MSX-01-970707214753Z-14620@*******.valinor.com> from
"Duane LaFlotte" at Jul
7, 97 05:47:53 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|
|Then only news server that I know is msnews.microsoft.com and they dont
|have any rec.games.frp.cyber they are strictly Microsoft stuff. I was
|wondering if there was another server that I could connect to that would
|be public domain and that would have that rec.games.frp.cyber
Is msnews a public newsserver, or one for employees only?
If it's the former, it SHOULD have all of the rec heirarchy... If it's the
latter, then, ho hum.....
I think any commercial newsserver for public use has access. I just have no
idea HOW to access them. At Keele, accessing the Keele server is automatic.
I tried accessing news.demon.co.uk once by changing an environment variable,
but connection was refused.....
Anyone?
P.S. SNIP OFF THE .SIG!!!!!!!!!!!!
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:53:38 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: mike.paff@*****.COM
Subject: Re: News Server
> I was wondering if there is a news server that is for public use that
> would have a shadowrun forum ? if so could I please have this address ?
If you have a web browser, you can access newsgroups through www.zippo.com
Otherwise, talk to your Internet Service Provider to see if they have a
news server for you to use.
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:55:33 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
In-Reply-To: <199707072120.RAA20027@********.mcit.com> from "Caric" at
Jul 7,
97 02:08:06 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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|Ya know Spike you're alot like the Spanish Inquisition in that regard.
I didn't expect the spanish inquisition......
:) :p
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:00:13 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: News Server
In-Reply-To: <199707072153.OAA29246@*******.> from "mike.paff@*****.COM"
at
Jul 7, 97 02:53:38 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|
|> I was wondering if there is a news server that is for public use that
|> would have a shadowrun forum ? if so could I please have this address ?
|
|If you have a web browser, you can access newsgroups through www.zippo.com
|Otherwise, talk to your Internet Service Provider to see if they have a
|news server for you to use.
Another usefull web address is www.dejanews.com...
Not only does this hold newsgroups... It also stores about 2 YEARS worth of
past posts to almost every newsgroup you can think of...
(apart from binary ones....)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:03:31 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Duane LaFlotte <DLaFlotte@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: News Server
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Both of you thanks for your help.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: mike.paff@*****.COM [SMTP:mike.paff@*****.COM]
>Sent: Monday, July 07, 1997 5:54 PM
>To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
>Subject: Re: News Server
>
>> I was wondering if there is a news server that is for public use that
>> would have a shadowrun forum ? if so could I please have this address ?
>
>If you have a web browser, you can access newsgroups through www.zippo.com
>Otherwise, talk to your Internet Service Provider to see if they have a
>news server for you to use.
>
>Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:06:55 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: The Spaceman <spaced@*.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: News Server
>>>>> Spike didst say unto the aether thusly:
# I tried accessing news.demon.co.uk once by changing an environment variable,
# but connection was refused.....
# Anyone?
The following website has a list of possible public sites. You may have
to browse a little to find one that works:
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/3959/usenet.html
The Spaceman |Death before dishonor.
spaced@*.washington.edu |Drugs before lunch.
Check out the Bill Page! | - Aspen Drug & Gun Club
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~spaced/bill.html
New maintainer of the Shadowrun Player Directory:
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~spaced/srdir/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:20:38 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 13:46:15 -0700"
<199707072104.QAA28507@********.mcit.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
You wrote:
> If you want to consider them .50 cal that's fine too, but you have to
> assume that the technology of assault rifles and SMG's have developed as
> well. They may be using higher calibers and/or more advance loads to make
> them keep the same differences from pistols as guns today. We pretty much
> consider a 9mm to be the top end of the LP class in our game truthfully,
> but a 10mm or a .40 would be the low end of the HP class, if that puts it
> into perspective from our standpoint.
Now those stats I could agree with.
As far as disallowing the burst fire
> capable pistols, we could have done that, but after discussion we felt that
> over all heavy pistols needed to be reduced for role=playing and realism.
> I just can't see the difference between a light and a heavy pistol being 3
> to 5 in power AND a damage catagory...it just doesn't feel right. The 6M
> damage feels right and has already made a positive influence on our game.
I couldn't agree with you more, I figure the light pistols should be at the
damage category of the SMGs, 6M and 7M. Heavy Pistols might run from 8M (your
.45) to 10M (the gigantic .50 and 11mm magnum rounds). Light pistols in 2nd ed
are a joke, as are hold-outs. SR has this hangup with small guns actually
doing damage, apparently all hold-outs are .22Short and .25, whereas there are
today .44mag and .357mag hold-outs. The streetline special was admittedly
neat in 1st ed because the picture made it small enough to practically pop in
your mouth, but no one was scared of it.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:29:21 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Consolidated Health Spells
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 16:08:48 -0500"
<Pine.SOL.3.96.970707160456.18230A-100000@**.MsState.Edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
You wrote:
> I also favor adding success thresholds for the increasing levels. For
> example, a light (or +1) spell requires at least 1 success; a medium (or
> +2) spell requires at least 2 successes; a serious (or +3) spell requires
> at least 3 successes; and, a deadly (or +4) spell requires at least 4
> successes. This tends to weaken the heal and treat spells a bit, but I
> think that is necessary in my game to prevent the energizer bunny
> syndrome.
That's one thing they did away with in 2nd ed was thresholds for spells, which
might be another nice thing to bring back in 2nd ed...
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:30:40 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 13:55:46 -0700"
<199707072111.QAA01123@********.mcit.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
You wrote:
> That's cool, but that puts the assault rifles the same as HP's when I still
> contend that the penetration power is not the same.
True, but if anything I think assault rifles have been shortchanged in this
regard. Do typical vests stop assault rounds today? Anyone have ideas on
this, more info?
> And then when the second shot hits?
Aye, but the second shot is going to suffer from recoil, higher t#.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:37:35 -0700
Reply-To: mbreton@**.netcom.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
David Buehrer wrote:
>
> Shawn McCollum wrote:
> |
> | though alot of things have to be revamped. I would like to see a
> | skill+attribute based system, which might make dice pools obsolete
> | also. The skill web just makes things to annoying, I hate counting
>
> Ditto on making a skill-attribute system (skill+attribute/2).
It already exists: it's called Cyberpunk 2020.
If you read the message Steve K posted, they're *not* going to retool
the system. Skill+Att is too large a change to just slip in.
Heck,
> you could do it now if you wanted to (as a house rule), figuring out
> what the closest attribute is on the skill web and linking the skill
> to that. Those skills that are way out on the skill web (more than 2
> dots from an attribute) could be "solo" skills (they aren't averaged
> with any attribute). And if someone doesn't have the skill they roll
> half their attribute at +2. If it's a "solo" skill it can't be
> attempted at all. Anyway, I'd like to see something like that.
I will agree that the Skill Web is mungled and the Companion munged it
further: the idea of defaulting from specialties only resulted in more
abuse, not less. It seems to me that it's also completely against the
grain of what specializations are (I'm good at (foo) and nothing else).
The Skill Web does a pretty good job of allowing for jack-of-all-trades
characters - you simply beef up your atts and get a few central skills -
and that's a distinct advantage Shadowrun offers. No other game (to my
recollection) allows for this. It makes characters a lot more broader
in their skills.
I don't allow defaulting from skills, which solves all the problems in
the games I run. Yes, you've fired a pistol on a target range; you
really think that helps you load a mortar?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:36:07 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 13:24:37 -0700"
<19970707202437.20832.rocketmail@*****.rocketmail.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
You wrote:
> As a GM I'm usually against raising somethings power to solve an
> issue, I'd much rather decrease a different area to bring about
> balance.
True, but I guess I see assault rifles as underpowered as written anyway, and
so don't have a problem raising them. Same goes for light pistols, push them
up to 5M-7M, no problem. Which would also include the machine pistols, giving
them an advantage over heavy pistols in exchange for their greater noise,
illegality (automatic weapons), and still higher concealiability. They both
have a high ammo capacity to keep up with their ROF, too. :)
> As you suggest, we did drop the HP power level. We just cut it the
> base down to 6M since dropping it by 1 or 2 had it equal to an Assault
> Rifle or SMG and that's what wasn't making sense to us. Also as Caric
> has said, Machine Pistols were making no sense to us. On burst the
> were doing the same as a heavy pistol, but with recoil and a base
> round of 6L v.s. 9m when figuring penetration against barriers and the
> like. Why would anyone chose the MP over the HP? Now, with a HP doing
> 6M and an MP doing 9M on burst, there's a reason someone may chose one
> over the other.
Yes, but now all the advantages go to the MPs, except that they're a little
louder on bursts... Why use the heavy pistol, now?
*shrug
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:36:47 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
| As far as disallowing the burst fire
| > capable pistols, we could have done that, but after discussion we felt
that
| > over all heavy pistols needed to be reduced for role=playing and
realism.
| > I just can't see the difference between a light and a heavy pistol
being 3
| > to 5 in power AND a damage catagory...it just doesn't feel right. The
6M
| > damage feels right and has already made a positive influence on our
game.
| I couldn't agree with you more, I figure the light pistols should be at
the
| damage category of the SMGs, 6M and 7M. Heavy Pistols might run from 8M
(your
| .45) to 10M (the gigantic .50 and 11mm magnum rounds). Light pistols in
2nd ed
| are a joke, as are hold-outs. SR has this hangup with small guns
actually
| doing damage, apparently all hold-outs are .22Short and .25, whereas
there are
| today .44mag and .357mag hold-outs. The streetline special was
admittedly
| neat in 1st ed because the picture made it small enough to practically
pop in
| your mouth, but no one was scared of it.
We would just prefer to adjust heavy pistols down as opposed to light
pistols up, but as it stands in the rules FASA isn't consistent. And
you're right about the hold-out, that's why it's a last resort and you put
flechette rounds in it. Can you say called shot to the face? I thought
you could. :)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:41:12 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
You wrote:
| > That's cool, but that puts the assault rifles the same as HP's when I
still
| > contend that the penetration power is not the same.
| True, but if anything I think assault rifles have been shortchanged in
this
| regard. Do typical vests stop assault rounds today? Anyone have ideas
on
| this, more info?
I doubt that they would fully stop an assault rifle round at close range,
but they would help. The damage is high enough that when a burst is fired
it gets nasty ven with the armor layered.
| > And then when the second shot hits?
|
| Aye, but the second shot is going to suffer from recoil, higher t#.
Nah...i've got the mods. ;)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:07:09 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: News Server
In-Reply-To: <6196.199707072200@******.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 23:00 7/7/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Another usefull web address is www.dejanews.com...
>
>Not only does this hold newsgroups... It also stores about 2 YEARS worth of
>past posts to almost every newsgroup you can think of...
>
>(apart from binary ones....)
And you don't read the binary groups, right Spike? :)
With only 3 hours a day, I don't even have time to open my newsreader :P
-Adam
--
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
"Can I have a cup of angst to go with my un-happy meal?" -- Hi & Lois
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:02:37 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 15:41:12 -0700"
<199707072253.SAA00973@********.mcit.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
You wrote:
> I doubt that they would fully stop an assault rifle round at close range,
> but they would help. The damage is high enough that when a burst is fired
> it gets nasty ven with the armor layered.
Well, what happens in SR is that 8M turns into 3M, which is easy to avoid with
a dodge and some pool dice.
> Nah...i've got the mods. ;)
Well, yeah, muzzle brakes are neat, but they shoot concealability to heck. :(
Where do *you* hide your assault rifle?
losthalo, who hides his in the car, cause it never sees any use anyway. :(
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:11:50 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Angel Ramos y David Fayes <hansa@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Fortune Tellers
In-Reply-To: <199707070123.VAA08166@****.provide.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 09:22 PM 06/07/1997 -0400, Justin wrote:
>[snip]
>Now, I could just say that she is very expensive. That in itself would
>limit access to her. I could even give her an eclectic schedule, so
>finding her when she is in isn't always easy. However, I don't want to cop
>out and just have her charge money. Any ideas on what else she may expect
>for payment besides nu yen?
Why don't FT character ask for some kind of work retribution "I would need
a component for my fortune telling that is only found in..... and I tought
you might be able to pay me getting me some more of this componet". This
way, her customer (a big corp exec) could hire shadowrunners to get this
misterious component.
Hope this spark your imagination a little more
The elven mage
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:57:59 GMT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Shadowrun ML demon <shadowrn-ml@*******.hanse.de>"
<shadowrn-ml@*******.HANSE.DE>
Organization: Nightmare on Coin Street
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM> writes:
> If you have a GM who gives stuff without you having to work for it. Saying
> that a sam can get wiz gear and lots of cash just by doing a run or two
> isn't any different than a physad who gets karma off a run or two. You
> forget that if your GM gives out money and stuff easily, then there's
> another one that gives out ton's of karma. And there are plenty who are
> right in the middle. My current GM doesn't hand out nuyen and tech, nor
> does he hand out karma. Neither would I.
Of course that is true - but if you play a somewhat clever and skilled
group it is extremely easy to make some money (heck - used cyberware,
fetishes, extra data, stollen goods are so easy to acquire and pretty
easy to sell), while you just cannot even make remotely as much
karma. Our GMs tend to be very restrictive on Karma (fortunately we
have a GM at the moment that is not as restrictive as our usual
one)... this means the other characters are developing much faster
than a PA does.
Later,
Georg
- --
Georg C. F. Greve <greve@*******.hanse.de>
http://porter.desy.de/~greve/
"People who fight may lose. People who do not
fight have already lost." -- Bertold Brecht
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:58:47 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: MANA vs PHYSICAL spell
In-Reply-To: <s3bcb6fd.042@****.co.za>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In message <s3bcb6fd.042@****.co.za>, Dion Scher <Dscher@****.CO.ZA>
writes
>Thanks for the reply, but I the responses are missing my question. I'm NOT
>asking whats the advantage of a ManaMissile but what's the DISADVANTAGE of a
>MANAmissile. Why would I bother, as a mage, to learn powermissile when I could
>learn ManaMissile. Statistically speaking, I will have a better chance of
>combatting enemies with ManaMissile. So why bother with PowerMissile?
Because (a) you might want to hurt something with high Willpower but low
Body, or (b) you might want to target something inanimate. ManaMissile
will only damage living targets: Power Missile will also affect doors,
cameras, cars, windows...
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:53:34 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Barrier spells
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
---VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PRONE wrote:
>
> hello all,
> a question about barrier spells. a mage throws up a barrier
spell and
> is attacked by physical means (guns, arrows, whatever). does the
barrier
> degrade as a actual barrier upon being struck by something powerful,
or not?
I know opinions and GM rulings vary greatly on this.
In may game I've said yes, barrier ratings for spells degrade like
their mundane counterparts, the spell winks out of existence when it
reaches zero. However, I can't picture big holes being opened in the
spell, so I rule for every 1/2 meter opening that would be ripped in a
mundane barrier, another point of barrier rating degrades off the
spell.
===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:53:49 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: MANA vs PHYSICAL spell
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
| In message <s3bcb6fd.042@****.co.za>, Dion Scher <Dscher@****.CO.ZA>
| writes
| >Thanks for the reply, but I the responses are missing my question. I'm
NOT
| >asking whats the advantage of a ManaMissile but what's the DISADVANTAGE
of a
| >MANAmissile. Why would I bother, as a mage, to learn powermissile when I
could
| >learn ManaMissile. Statistically speaking, I will have a better chance
of
| >combatting enemies with ManaMissile. So why bother with PowerMissile?
|
| Because (a) you might want to hurt something with high Willpower but low
| Body, or (b) you might want to target something inanimate. ManaMissile
| will only damage living targets: Power Missile will also affect doors,
| cameras, cars, windows...
Also power missile can be sent through a focus while manamissile cannot.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:50:08 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
| You wrote:
| > I doubt that they would fully stop an assault rifle round at close
range,
| > but they would help. The damage is high enough that when a burst is
fired
| > it gets nasty ven with the armor layered.
| Well, what happens in SR is that 8M turns into 3M, which is easy to avoid
with
| a dodge and some pool dice.
That's what full auto is for. :)
| > Nah...i've got the mods. ;)
| Well, yeah, muzzle brakes are neat, but they shoot concealability to
heck. :(
| Where do *you* hide your assault rifle?
Actually I leave it at home, I don't take it anywhere unless the fit is
hitting the shan and then I usually have no need to hide it.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:10:38 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: MANA vs PHYSICAL spell
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
---Dion Scher wrote:
>
> Thanks for the reply, but I the responses are missing my question.
I'm NOT asking whats the advantage of a ManaMissile but what's the
DISADVANTAGE of a MANAmissile. Why would I bother, as a mage, to learn
powermissile when I could learn ManaMissile. Statistically speaking, I
will have a better chance of combatting enemies with ManaMissile. So
why bother with PowerMissile?
---Reply since the message didn't seem to get one--
Power Missile is a physical spell and therefore be targeted on
inanimate objects as well as the living. You can hit vehicles, drones,
security cameras, doors, computers and so on with Power Missile where
you couldn't with it's Mana based brothers.
===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:15:10 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: shotguns and silencers
In-Reply-To: <970706213139_423842298@*******.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In message <970706213139_423842298@*******.mail.aol.com>, Duncan
McNeill-Burton <Dreadnaut1@***.COM> writes
>Actually, I'm pretty sure you can Gas Vent a shotgun, however, you can't fire
>shot from a Gas Vented shotgun, and only a sound suppressor will keep the
>noise down, and that only works with solid slugs as well.
All you need to do is put the shot in a sabot: a plastic carrier to hold
the shot together in the barrel. Once out of the barrel, air resistance
slows the sabot down faster than the shot and you get the usual
spreading effect.
End result? No shot getting caught in the vent.
The wad would probably do the same job anyway. And since the implication
for most "shot" rounds is that they fall between 000 and #4 shot, they
won't get caught in many gas vents anyway.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:10:28 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: <199707071748.NAA10788@********.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In message <199707071748.NAA10788@********.mcit.com>, Caric
<caric@********.COM> writes
>The round is smaller yes, but the bullet penatrates more effectively,
>because of the velocity. In SR assault rifles, smg's, and HP's all do the
>same damage...moderate. But apparently HP's penetrate barriers better. In
>RL that is just not the case. A .44 will penetrate sure, but an assault
>rifle can do it as well with a smaller round.
An assault rifle will penetrate walls, armour et al that a pistol will
stop dead on. A medium MG or battle rifle (my beloved old L1A1) wil
shoot through anything you see in a routine urban environment.
One of my gripes with SR is the lack of differentiation between assault
rifles and SMGs. On the other hand, "shot with an assault rifle" equals
"automatic long-term hospitalisation" for real life, so that's perhaps
not such a bad thing from a playability point of view.
SR1 lacked a lot from a realism point of view as far as firearms went,
where an armour jacket plus helmet let you ignore SMG or assault rifle
fire from most opponents (Skill 3 wasn't enough to stage up, 6pts
ballistic meant the damage was negated without a die roll).
SR2 still lacks realism, but is far more playable. Heavy pistols are
dangerous weapons. SMGs and assault rifles can be downright scary. The
realism is questionable, but I like the playability and the feel and so
I don't care :)
(Admit it: while it's unrealistic that heavy pistols do so much damage
compared to SMGs, doesn't it fit the cinematic feel that you can
actually harm someone with a pistol? You certainly couldn't in SR1...)
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:23:15 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: <199707072104.QAA28507@********.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In message <199707072104.QAA28507@********.mcit.com>, Caric
>If you want to consider them .50 cal that's fine too, but you have to
>assume that the technology of assault rifles and SMG's have developed as
>well. They may be using higher calibers and/or more advance loads to make
>them keep the same differences from pistols as guns today. We pretty much
>consider a 9mm to be the top end of the LP class in our game truthfully,
>but a 10mm or a .40 would be the low end of the HP class, if that puts it
>into perspective from our standpoint.
You forget that some people today - my wife, for instance - found 9mm a
handful, and .45ACP downright painful to fire.
Any improvements you get out of handguns will be in bullet design.
Remember, the FBI accepted the 10mm as a more effective calibre, then
dropped it when it proved to be too much of a handful for most agents to
accurately fire. Doesn't matter how deadly the bullet is, unless you can
hit the target with it.
I don't have a problem with 9mm/.45/.40cal being the standard calibres
in 2058; sixty years ago the standard calibres were 9mm, .38 and .45,
and .357 Magnum was a speciality round for the large and robust shooter
only.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:09:53 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: [SR3] Character Generation
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Here's a suggestion for SR3 which I think would be well received overall...
Get rid of the priority-based system and go to the point-based system from
the Shadowrun Companion for character generation.
It allows for a more diverse sort of character by not confining players to
"X" points worth of skills, "Y" points worth of attributes, and
"Z" amount
of starting nuyen and force points. The cost for magical ability is
balanced with the benefits afforded by it as is the cost of metahumanity.
Also, Edges and Flaws can be better worked into characters if this system is
used.
A good degree of the powergaming problems inherent to SR would be solved and
character diversity would be achieved with the players getting a chargen
system that can truly be tailored to create an original concept instead of
one that caters to cookie-cutter character design. Mages suddenly don't
*have* to have high resources if they want a decent amount of spells or
force points. Cyberware users aren't locked into one million or four
hundred thousand nuyen, they can choose between a few new options. The
system simply works well, while the priority-based system does not.
My biggest peeve of all with SR was character generation and when I saw the
point-based system in the Shadowrun Companion, I damn near cried with
happiness. I know that a lot of players haven't seen or used this system
yet, but I can't see why anyone wouldn't want to use it once they got a
chance to look at it (detractors of the system feel free to chime in here).
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:09:48 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:31 AM 7/7/97 -0700, Caric wrote:
>> A Force 4 spell (mediocre), cast at a Willpower 6 opponent (max human)
>> was still able to cause damage. This damage didn't have to go through armor
>> and couldn't be staged down by a body test. This change would make combat
>> spells WAY too powerful. If you wish combat spells to act like DMs, then
>> make them face the same drain codes as DMs and give the opponent a
>> resistance test to resist the damage. Nobody would use damaging
>> manipulations if combat spells were this easy to cast and this
>> devastating in power. *Please* don't make that change...
>The opponent would still get a resistance test.
But not a damage resistance test like victims of DMs get due to the fact
that their damage has to be staged all the way down, the victim of a Combat
spell gets his Willpower or Body and that is all. If combat spells were
made as powerful as this change would make them, nobody in their right mind
would take a DM. All that the opponent gets to resist with is his willpower
or (natural) body, which will be considerably lower than his potential die
pool for a damage resistance test combined with the use of some armor.
>Combat spells will still have higher target numbers and heaven
>help them if the opposition has shielding.
The target number was still the Willpower or Body of the opponent, just as
it is now. If you mean drain, having to fend off (Force) Drain is a
pittance compared to the incredibly enhanced (and game-unbalancing) power
this would give Combat spells.
Shielding always helps, but it wouldn't help near enough. It does plenty
normally, why shouldn't it do so in this situation?
If every person everywhere had a 6 Willpower and someone throwing some
Shielding dice their way 24 hours a day, then I could see this modification
to the rules being somewhat plausible. The average person in SR has a 3
Willpower and doesn't know anyone with magical ability let alone someone
who's willing to shield him constantly...
>DM's will have lower target numbers, but the opponent gets some
>or all of there impact armor.
And a full damage resistance test as opposed to a handful of dice from
Willpower or Body. Remember that a force 4 (mediocre) spell was cast
against a *max* human willpower target and still caused damage without
trouble. Drain was handled easily. The target got no damage resistance
test just a spell resistance test. Imagine what this would do to anyone
without a 6 willpower (90% or more of SR)?
>The drain would be high enough that it would even out.
Nowhere near. As it was clearly presented in Steve's example, the drain was
handled easily and the target (with max human Willpower) of a mediocre spell
was injured.
>The higher target numbers on combat spells would limit there
>effectiveness in comparison to DM's.
Higher TN's? The average Willpower in SR is three (maybe 2, but I'll give
it the benefit of the doubt). This is less than the 4 TN of a damaging
manipulation. Average Body? Same. Still lower, nice and easy to cast on.
There is no downside to the enhanced power that this would give Combat
Spells. The drain increase is inconsequential, the target numbers better on
average than DMs, and the damage unavoidable in almost every case.
A force 3 manabolt cast at an average person would kill every time (barring
some UGLY die rolling) and drain would be resisted easily. I call that
unbalancing.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:10:04 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Tables (was Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Gurth once dared to write,
>Having the tables in the text makes them much easier to refer to while
>reading a rule than when they're only in the back of the book. Doing it
>like VR 2.0 did and putting the important tables in the back as well as in
>the main text would be best for any rulebook, IMHO.
And for my opinion as well.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:17:08 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Kabael <kabael@****.NET>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> The 4th world has ended in Shadowrun but not in Earthdawn. By this
>I'm saying that what happened to the Blood Wood in the end has yet to be
>revealed. Don't forget there is a living legend cult dedicated to undoing
>the Ritual of Thorns. Maybe they succeed.
noting that the 4th world has not ended as of Earthdawn reminds me of
something. After reading some mail last night about the horrors and the
Scourge, I found that the Scourge only occurs at the PEAK of the magic
cycle, although minor horros seep in before hand. I am sure that many of the
people who own ED already knew that, but I just rediscovered it : ).
As I was saying, since the Scourge occurs at the peak, SR is safe, at least
from the really big Horrors (ie Verjigorm), but the minor ones were noted to
preceed the Scourge by hundreds of years. The *shadows that fed on the
hatreds of men* were a main reason the the Therans believed the tales of the
Scourge and prepared. IMHO, toxic and insect spirits might be the minor
horrors, but are more likely to be the prelude to even them. Bigger threats
are hinted at in Awakenings and Cybertechnology (which has a conversation
that hints at events similar to the beginning of the Scourge). The Scourge
is coming, and that abstract knowledge is something that adds a little
flavor to the SR world, IMHO, as well as ED. As far as surviving goes, I
dont think that SR will suffer much more than ED did (other than a larger
number of people perishing, but only because of the higher population).
Follow the same tactics, hide away, and then crawl out to survive.
Also, there was discussion going around about some of the immortal
characters that would have survived since ED into SR, what about Mestoph the
Elven Nethermancer, he would be at the forefront of Initiate exploration in
SR. BTW, personally, I would LOVE to see nethermancy make an appearance into
SR : )
k a b a e l
meo nike a.d.i.d.a.s. reebok
My world is unaffected, there is an exit here
I say it is an it's true, there is a dream inside a
dream, I'm wide awake the more I sleep
-Marilyn Manson, Reflecting God
kabael@****.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:17:12 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Kabael <kabael@****.NET>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties (Dragons 'n stuff)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:02 AM 7/7/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Does anyone know of a section (I belive it's in the Atzlan sourcebook, but
>for the life of me, I can't find it) where they talk about what's inside
>Atzlan temples? I vaguely recall something like shrouded forms with astral
>conduits to them, and a reply from someone like Dunk about "do you realize
>what that means? etc?". I'm working on a theory about a particular horror
>and I need to find that reference. Any help would be appreciated.
>
the conversation at the end of Cybertechnology, IIRC, that happened to be
about Aztlan at that part.
k a b a e l
meo nike a.d.i.d.a.s. reebok
My world is unaffected, there is an exit here
I say it is an it's true, there is a dream inside a
dream, I'm wide awake the more I sleep
-Marilyn Manson, Reflecting God
kabael@****.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:04:28 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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| You forget that some people today - my wife, for instance - found 9mm a
| handful, and .45ACP downright painful to fire.
Very good point, that's part of what I was saying I see a .50 cal as being
your Ruger Superwarhawks and the like, which in our game still do 8M
moderate damage, but penetrate better than a normal HP.
| Any improvements you get out of handguns will be in bullet design.
| Remember, the FBI accepted the 10mm as a more effective calibre, then
| dropped it when it proved to be too much of a handful for most agents to
| accurately fire. Doesn't matter how deadly the bullet is, unless you can
| hit the target with it.
True.
| I don't have a problem with 9mm/.45/.40cal being the standard calibres
| in 2058; sixty years ago the standard calibres were 9mm, .38 and .45,
| and .357 Magnum was a speciality round for the large and robust shooter
| only.
I can agree with you as well, but it's purely an academic arguement anyway
as we can assume any advancements have been made accross the board as
opposed to only HP's. Therefore the differences should remain pretty much
the same whether larger rounds are used or not. The heavy pistol is still
a deadly weapon on our game because we don't walk around looking like tanks
in layered armor all of the time. If your campaign doesn't use or
disallows layered armor then HP damage at 6M is still beefy enough. Throw
some ex explosive ammo or APDS in that bad boy and you're really tough.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:36:49 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Generation
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
TopCat once dared to write,
>Here's a suggestion for SR3 which I think would be well received overall...
>
>Get rid of the priority-based system and go to the point-based system from
>the Shadowrun Companion for character generation.
<snip>
It has finally come to this. Everyone has been expecting a fight
between you and me, Topper and until now we have gotten along fine. I
have to draw the line on the point based system. I do not like the linear
point based system presented in the companion. I have no problem with the
concept of a point based system but not the one in the companion at all.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:09:12 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Generation
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Topcat spouted:
| My biggest peeve of all with SR was character generation and when I saw
the
| point-based system in the Shadowrun Companion, I damn near cried with
| happiness. I know that a lot of players haven't seen or used this system
| yet, but I can't see why anyone wouldn't want to use it once they got a
| chance to look at it (detractors of the system feel free to chime in
here).
I agree with you here TC...we have been allowing the person to choose which
way they wanted to create the character, and I don't think anyone has
chosen the priority system...it only works better for Sams and even then
it's not by much.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:27:54 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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| But not a damage resistance test like victims of DMs get due to the fact
| that their damage has to be staged all the way down, the victim of a
Combat
| spell gets his Willpower or Body and that is all. If combat spells were
| made as powerful as this change would make them, nobody in their right
mind
| would take a DM. All that the opponent gets to resist with is his
willpower
| or (natural) body, which will be considerably lower than his potential
die
| pool for a damage resistance test combined with the use of some armor.
I don't dispute that, but the higher target number that the combat spell
will need (generally) will help to make up for it by having fewer
successes...also if the drain is increased to the full force that makes
casting those high yield spells very costly for the extra power. I would
limit elemental effects to only the DM's and so there will still be a
need/want for them. Spells like clout will always be great because of the
high yield for low force.
| >Combat spells will still have higher target numbers and heaven
| >help them if the opposition has shielding.
|
| The target number was still the Willpower or Body of the opponent, just
as
| it is now. If you mean drain, having to fend off (Force) Drain is a
| pittance compared to the incredibly enhanced (and game-unbalancing) power
| this would give Combat spells.
Yes the target number will be the same, but the caster won't be able to
afford to cast those high damage spells nearly as much. Even manabolt
would do as much damage to you as your target, and you would have to split
up your pool. I don't even want to get into spells like hellblast.
| Shielding always helps, but it wouldn't help near enough. It does plenty
| normally, why shouldn't it do so in this situation?
I don't think shielding should get any better, maybe i'm thinking
incorrectly here, but for combat spells the shielding adds to the target
number and the targets resistance dice...when a DM is cast the shielding
doesn't add to the TN, but the target does get the extra dice to resist.
At least that's how we use it in our game.
| If every person everywhere had a 6 Willpower and someone throwing some
| Shielding dice their way 24 hours a day, then I could see this
modification
| to the rules being somewhat plausible. The average person in SR has a 3
| Willpower and doesn't know anyone with magical ability let alone someone
| who's willing to shield him constantly...
If you were running against average people it wouldn't matter what you did
to the magic system you would destroy them every time. If you want to talk
about mages fighting only non-mages it's still not going to be any more
deadly because the mage cannot cast as many spells before he is messed up.
If there is an opposing mage then things get really nasty.
| >DM's will have lower target numbers, but the opponent gets some
| >or all of there impact armor.
|
| And a full damage resistance test as opposed to a handful of dice from
| Willpower or Body. Remember that a force 4 (mediocre) spell was cast
| against a *max* human willpower target and still caused damage without
| trouble. Drain was handled easily. The target got no damage resistance
| test just a spell resistance test. Imagine what this would do to anyone
| without a 6 willpower (90% or more of SR)?
And is they do so then that's all the fewer combat pool dice they get when
your buddy shoots them. That was also for a manamissile and the target
only took a light wound.
| >The drain would be high enough that it would even out.
|
| Nowhere near. As it was clearly presented in Steve's example, the drain
was
| handled easily and the target (with max human Willpower) of a mediocre
spell
| was injured.
We are talking about the drain on a manamissile so yes it was handled
easily...if the spell had been a manabolt the drain would have been
light...do you think that the casting magician should take a wound equal to
the one he deals out? I think that a light drain to deliver a moderate
wound is not overbalanced.
| >The higher target numbers on combat spells would limit there
| >effectiveness in comparison to DM's.
|
| Higher TN's? The average Willpower in SR is three (maybe 2, but I'll
give
| it the benefit of the doubt). This is less than the 4 TN of a damaging
| manipulation. Average Body? Same. Still lower, nice and easy to cast
on.
| There is no downside to the enhanced power that this would give Combat
| Spells. The drain increase is inconsequential, the target numbers better
on
| average than DMs, and the damage unavoidable in almost every case.
Again we as shadowrunners are not fighting average people and you can't
argue that. It would be just as easy to just shoot them if you are
fighting pedestrians. How many runner have body and willpower attributes
lower than four? Not many...and if they do then they usually have another
way of defending themselves or have the lower attributes as a role-playing
device and should expect combat to be extremely dangerous to them
regardless.
| A force 3 manabolt cast at an average person would kill every time
(barring
| some UGLY die rolling) and drain would be resisted easily. I call that
| unbalancing.
A force three manbolt cast at a normal person would do kill everytime as it
is now, and drain would be resisted easily. I fail to see the difference.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:46:27 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain NO officially [OT]
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
><Caric wipes away a tear>
>
>I love you guys.
>
><much gasping as I try to not lose it again>
You're not getting my Bud Light. ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:55:04 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Generation
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 09:36 PM 7/7/97 -0400, MC23 wrote:
>TopCat once dared to write,
>>Here's a suggestion for SR3 which I think would be well received overall...
>>Get rid of the priority-based system and go to the point-based system from
>>the Shadowrun Companion for character generation.
>It has finally come to this. Everyone has been expecting a fight
>between you and me, Topper and until now we have gotten along fine. I
>have to draw the line on the point based system. I do not like the linear
>point based system presented in the companion. I have no problem with the
>concept of a point based system but not the one in the companion at all.
This, of course, begs the questions:
1) What don't you like about the point-based system?
2) Why do you like the priority-based system over the point-based system?
3) Would you rather see the sum-to-ten system used? If so, why?
4) What modifications would it take for a point-based system to be the best
overall choice in your opinion?
I don't think we'll find ourselves in a "fight" here, this subject isn't
really given to those sorts of reactions. There will simply be the "whys"
and "hows" of each opinion. I highly prefer the point-based system for the
reasons I stated earlier and merely wonder why your preferences lie where
they do.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:52:44 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Generation
On Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:09:53 -0500 TopCat <topcat@***.NET> writes:
<<Here's a suggestion for SR3 which I think would be well received
overall...>>
Don't speak too soon, TopCat:)
<<Get rid of the priority-based system and go to the point-based system
from
the Shadowrun Companion for character generation.>>
No. Leave them as-is, with the Points System as an optional rule and
nothing more.
<<It allows for a more diverse sort of character by not confining players
to
"X" points worth of skills, "Y" points worth of attributes, and
"Z"
amount
of starting nuyen and force points. The cost for magical ability is
balanced with the benefits afforded by it as is the cost of metahumanity.
Also, Edges and Flaws can be better worked into characters if this system
is
used.>>
Well, I agree on that point.
<<A good degree of the powergaming problems inherent to SR would be
solved and
character diversity would be achieved with the players getting a chargen
system that can truly be tailored to create an original concept instead
of
one that caters to cookie-cutter character design.>>
Don't take this personally, but that is utter BS, IMO. The point system,
as much as I like it, is more open to abuse than the priority system, by
nature of the flexibility it grants the player. If anything, making the
point based system the standard chargen system would only open the game
up to further powergaming tendencies by opening up further loopholes for
munchkins to abuse. It also requires more thought and knowledge on the
part of a new player. And it makes it much easier for a new player to
screw up.
<<Mages suddenly don't
*have* to have high resources if they want a decent amount of spells or
force points. Cyberware users aren't locked into one million or four
hundred thousand nuyen, they can choose between a few new options. The
system simply works well, while the priority-based system does not.>>
I disagree. While the point-based system is more flexible, I find that
the Priorities system(s) work well enough for just about anything.
<<My biggest peeve of all with SR was character generation and when I saw
the
point-based system in the Shadowrun Companion, I damn near cried with
happiness. I know that a lot of players haven't seen or used this system
yet, but I can't see why anyone wouldn't want to use it once they got a
chance to look at it (detractors of the system feel free to chime in
here).>>
<shrug> I don't think that making the Points system part of the standard
rules would be a good idea, mainly because it's even more open to abuse
than the basic chargen system. And, as much as I like the Edges and
Flaws, they have the same problem. And abuse is one of the things we're
trying to prevent:)
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:55:28 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Steve Kenson once dared to write,
>OK, I'm getting some good feedback. Here's Survey Question #3...
>
>One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more of a
>mystical/magical feel to it than it does now." I'm curious about the idea,
>since I don't quite understand it. Since SR magic is currently (IMHO) based
>on about 80% real-world magic theory and 20% fantasy magic (fireballs and
>such) it feels pretty "mystical" to me. I'd like some feedback on the issue.
>Is SR magic "magical" enough? If not, how could it be better?
The thing closest to this that somewhat irritates me is that
everything more or less relates to either hermetic or shamanic in it's
handling, and mostly to shamanic at that. I would love to see something
that breaks that mold or mixes it up at least. Chinese magic promised
that but we only got a teaser out of the Underworld Sourcebook. Sure it's
fine to leave it that way for NPC's but why would that mean that players
can't play someone of Chinese origins who is a magician. There is no need
to limit players to a purely Western role. The cyberpunk genre is one
filled with an ongoing culture clash.
Now this doesn't have to be in SR3 but I would like to see it
somewhere in a FASA publication.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:54:58 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
Greetings!!!
Actually, the offical reasoning why Pistols do 9M as opposed to 6M is their
use of "Firepower Ammo". No specs on firepower ammo, it just does a better
job and is only manufactured for pistols.
FASA's rationale was that pistols were not powerful enough when they uped the
damage codes to 9M. There had to be a level playing field.
It has nothing to do with round size or anything realistic.
-Bandit
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:04:47 -0700
Reply-To: hernandez@********.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Iosthalo said in response to someone whom I forgot:
<snip>
> This all dows derive from the idea of a 9mm pistol being a Heavy Pistol,
> And if the 9mm is a heavy pistol, why aren't there some bigger guns
(aside from
> the Ruger)? What about cannons like the Desert Eagle (which is what I
always
> thought the Ares Predator and Browning Max-power were, thus their
original
> small clip size in first ed.).
I don't think that you could refer to a 9mm as a Heavy Pistol. Yes granted
it has a high velocity, but it doesn't have the stopping power of say a .40
to .45 cal. pistol. Those and larger IMHO are Heavy Pistols. (Ever see the
Desert Eagle .50 cal? Sweet.)
A high velocity round will only punch through target. Whereas the larger
round will impact and the target WILL know he has been hit. (Large chunk
missing, knocked back some).
In the begining Man created God;
and in the image of Man created he him
hernandez@********.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:34:36 -0700
Reply-To: hernandez@********.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
Subject: Re: shotguns and silencers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hello all, I guess I've lurked long enough. I just had to agree with
Andrew about the shotgun. Seeing as how this is a subject I am familiar
with.
AndrewH said:
<snip>
>It's a hell of an intimidating sight though. Shotguns are pretty evil
looking to
> begin with; this should make chrome-boys scream. Shotguns are not subtle
>weapons, trying to silence one goes against the whole premise of the
>weapon.
<snip>
Being in law enforcement, I can tell you that showing up on scene with a
shotgun is DEFINITELY an attention getter. People tend to not want to argue
with you as much :) But the best is at night when you show up on scene and
bring that old shotgun out of it's carrier and rack a round into the
chamber, (grin) People just tend to stop what they are doing and take
notice. THAT is the universal command of Stop.
In the begining Man created God;
and in the image of Man created he him
hernandez@********.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:15:13 +1000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: 1st Ed and OOP Modules
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I have the opportunity at the moment to buy myself four or five modules
from a friend's supply, and he's got lots of 1st Ed and OOP modules. I'd
like some suggestions from the listmembers who've played them as to
which would be the best value for money, or the most enjoyable runs.
Private email is probably best.
Thanks, guys...
Lady Jestyr
-----------------------------------------------
All stressed out and no-one to choke...
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:33:34 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:57 PM 7/7/97 GMT, Georg wrote:
>Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM> writes:
>> If you have a GM who gives stuff without you having to work for it. Saying
>> that a sam can get wiz gear and lots of cash just by doing a run or two
>> isn't any different than a physad who gets karma off a run or two. You
>> forget that if your GM gives out money and stuff easily, then there's
>> another one that gives out ton's of karma. And there are plenty who are
>> right in the middle. My current GM doesn't hand out nuyen and tech, nor
>> does he hand out karma. Neither would I.
>Of course that is true - but if you play a somewhat clever and skilled
>group it is extremely easy to make some money (heck - used cyberware,
>fetishes, extra data, stollen goods are so easy to acquire and pretty
>easy to sell), while you just cannot even make remotely as much karma.
I allow this, but I don't pay out a whole lot for runs and fairly strictly
enforce the 30% fencing guidleline. In the end, a fair amount of cash is
collected and the karma reward balances out overall.
I tend to give a little heavier on the karma at the beginning of a campaign
and light on the cash. As the characters gain more reknown, they either
take on tougher jobs or they get less karma (what are they really learning
from doing something they've done before now that it's dirt easy?). Most
jobs pay off in nuyen, others don't, some don't pay in anything. No matter
what though (as long as it's even sort of a challenge) the players will get
karma.
>Our GMs tend to be very restrictive on Karma (fortunately we
>have a GM at the moment that is not as restrictive as our usual
>one)... this means the other characters are developing much faster
>than a PA does.
The problem here, as it seems to me, is that your physad probably...
A) Doesn't know how to spend karma to his best benefit
B) Relies far too heavily on or thinks only of Initiation
C) Forgot what money can really do for you
D) Wants to be as powerful as a Street Samurai, without the drawbacks
E) Forgot the perks of physad existence
F) Any combination of the above
Now, the problem could also lie in your GM. Have the physad player explain
his problem with being underpowered compared to everyone else (is he
*really* underpowered or is he just slower than a fully wired samurai and
not as good of an aim?). A good GM will then work with the player to help
him out. Maybe he'll give him a break on Initiation or some extra karma
(karma-for-cash rules, anyone?), maybe he just offers some RP'ing tips,
maybe he'll offer some karma-spending tips that the player hadn't condiered,
maybe he'll shrug and say "sucks to be you". As long as it's something
other than the last, the physad player will be better off than he was before
he took the time to ask.
My physad character (Vagabond) was perhaps the most powerful character on
our Shadowrun team. He wasn't blindingly fast (6+2D6), but he was played
smart and he was very effective at what he did. I didn't try to make him a
front-line samurai, he wouldn't have done well in that role. I didn't try
to make him into a monster-grade initiate, there were better places to spend
his karma. I didn't forget about the nuyen I'd made on runs just because
"physads need karma more".
Money can be used to establish connections, LOTS of them. A runner lives
and dies by the strength and security of his contacts. It can also be used
to get SOTA gear to make life easier on you (a dikoted secure jacket is a
nice investment, likewise a *very good* fake SIN and surveillance gear). It
can also be set aside for a "retirement fund". Money can be used in so many
places for so many things that any character who would discount it because
it isn't karma and he needs karma to initiate should seriously rethink his ways.
If I were your game's physad player, I'd sit down and really think about
what kind of character I was playing. If all that matters to me are
attribute and skill points and levels of Initiation, then there are ways
that I can go about doing that. If actually having a character for any
purpose other than dungeon-crawls is on my mind, then I'd work from that
perspective. I personally work from this perspective now unless trying to
prove a point or for comedy's sake (remember Gun Bunny Deluxe and the Troll
Tank?), but I can't fault someone for playing a dungeon-crawler if that's
what they really want to do.
Anyways, have him consider his character a bit and ask the GM (or even
fellow players) for his opinions and help and I think the situation will
resolve itself painlessly and to the satisfaction of all parties involved.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:39:24 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Generation
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
TopCat once dared to write,
<<taken out of order>>
>I don't think we'll find ourselves in a "fight" here, this subject isn't
>really given to those sorts of reactions. There will simply be the "whys"
>and "hows" of each opinion. I highly prefer the point-based system for the
>reasons I stated earlier and merely wonder why your preferences lie where
>they do.
"Suave, you're so fucking suave!"
>This, of course, begs the questions:
>
>1) What don't you like about the point-based system?
It's linear and not geometric. Linear system are by nature more
prone to abuse. The emphasis of priority of what you take is also greatly
removed. As I've said, a point based system would be fine, but not this
one.
>2) Why do you like the priority-based system over the point-based system?
Because Shadowrun CharGen creates a conceptual feel for the
character. Just by your choices you can start to see where the character
is focused. For me linear point based system is flawed to begin with. If
the cost was on a geometric scale then I would reconsider.
>3) Would you rather see the sum-to-ten system used? If so, why?
Nope. It breaks the priority scale balance.
>4) What modifications would it take for a point-based system to be the best
>overall choice in your opinion?
Like I said, a geometric scale as opposed to a linear scale. The
current priority system is geometric and a point based system should be
as well. It's all about balance.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:53:24 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain NO officially [OT]
On Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:36:59 -0700 Caric <caric@********.COM> writes:
>| > >And again, Nightlife, sorry if I offended.
>| >
>| > It's time for a group hug everybody. ;-)
>| If you say so <Raven goes around and hugs Nightlife, MC23, Bull,
>| Gurth, Steven and all the others>
>| Think that's enough ;)
>
><Caric wipes away a tear>
>
>I love you guys.
>
><much gasping as I try to not lose it again>
"But you're still not getting my Bud Lite..."
:)
~Tim
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:53:24 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties
On Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:07:04 -0500 Jaymz <justin@******.NET> writes:
>At 07:07 PM 7/7/97 +0100, you wrote:
>>Why? What's so special about UCLA????
>I don't have my cal free book around, but there's some sort of screwy
stuff
>in place due to the "magical pranks" UCLA and (Berkley?) sorry, don't
know
>caliornia very well.
I don't know about UCLA, but Berkley and the Santa Cruz areas would fit
that bill quite nicely.
>From the stories I've heard from friends who live there, it's quite an
"interesting" place.
>Using magic is very haphazard and unpredictable in that area.
~Tim
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:13:59 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 21:17:08 -0400"
<1.5.4.16.19970707211826.1cef8106@***.tiac.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
You wrote:
> Also, there was discussion going around about some of the immortal
> characters that would have survived since ED into SR, what about Mestoph the
> Elven Nethermancer, he would be at the forefront of Initiate exploration in
> SR. BTW, personally, I would LOVE to see nethermancy make an appearance into
> SR : )
Hmm, so Mestoph *didn't* actually die in that li'l story at the beginning of
the ED rulebook?
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:20:45 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Generation
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 21:36:49 -0400"
<199707080137.VAA06484@*********.mindspring.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
You wrote:
> It has finally come to this. Everyone has been expecting a fight
> between you and me, Topper and until now we have gotten along fine. I
> have to draw the line on the point based system. I do not like the linear
> point based system presented in the companion. I have no problem with the
> concept of a point based system but not the one in the companion at all.
I like the idea of a points-based rather than priority-based system. What
about the Companion version (since I haven't seen it, the book apparently isn't
carried around here) don't you like? What would you suggest instead?
losthalo
