| From: | Unknown sender |
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From: Ereskanti@***.com
To: Avenger@*******.demon.co.uk
Date: 06 July 1997 19:04
Subject: Rambling???
>J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM> rambled on endlessly about Runner's
>Attitudes
>
>Hey Now...(thwap)....
>-K
<grin>
Ah, someone who understands my addiction to old smelly carp :)
--
Dark Avenger
Living life on the edge - the edge of a bottle that is.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:38:18 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
----
From: Bruce H. Nagel <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Date: 07 July 1997 01:08
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
>You wrote:
>> > And let's not talk about what shadowrunning is 'intended' to be, eh?
>> Why not? This is a list devoted to Shadowrun, it wouldn't be the first
>> time the subject has come up, and won't be the last, and every time it
>> does it'll eventually start a flame, so what the heck :)
>Umm, you answered your own question.
I know, it was quite deliberate. don't worry, you'll get used to me
arguing with myself and answering my own questions, it's a problem I have
:)
> Since it comes down to opinion, why
>bother, eh? Gratuitously wasting time should be more fun than that. ;)
Ah, someone else who fails to rise to the bait :) Agreed, wasting time
should definately be more fun than starting flames. Oh well, guess I'll
have to go find Nightlife and start quoting Jurassic Park at him again
<grin>
>losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:27:09 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adepts ( cost odf powers )
On Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:52:22 -0400 Archie Burks <Dragathor@***.COM>
writes:
<<How do you find the power point for a Physical Adept?
When we first played ( years ago ) in our niaveity we used the same
points as
magi do: Tech\resourses Spens an a priority and get 50 or so. If the
adept
had essense lose then it came off of his magic rating and the x amount of
points. as long as he had at least one fvull magic point left hae had
most of
his original points.
But then recently ( still years ago ) we decided that was over-board and
began using whatever the adepts magic rating was. This caused a definate
drop in thier power level.
Did anybody out there make this same mistake?>>
Oh, dear. You used force points when buying Physad powers. <sigh> That is
probably the *worst* and most vague section of the entire SR2 book, and
no, you aren't the first or only person to make that mistake. I spent a
very heated argument with one player on that. He's on the list, perhaps
he'll tell you about it:)
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:27:09 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
On Sun, 6 Jul 1997 02:55:36 -0500 "Bruce H. Nagel"
<NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> writes:
<snippage throughout>
>> Well, as far as I know, you don't get dice pools when a) you're
>> defaulting or b) you're chipping the skill.
>Actually I was unaware of this, but it makes sense in both cases.
I'm not entirely sure, but I know you don't get hacking pool if you're
chipping Computer skill, it makes sense to me that you wouldn't get it if
you don't have the skill.
>> So a character without
>> Unarmed Combat still can't defend himself decently, he just has a lot
>> more dice to throw into damage resistance.
>And that's part of my problem. Before, people ran out of dice in their
>Defense Pool, now it's a lot harder, based off of attributes. Mages can
throw
>spells to wear a target down for the party, safe and secure that their
Combat
>Pool is there to help pull their butt out of the fire (Quickness and
Willpower
>usually being fairly high for mages anyway). I don't like folks who
don't
>participate in much combat (meaning firearms or melee skills) being able
to
>dodge and defend against those pretty well. It was a good reason for a
lot of
>characters to take at least some Unarmed Combat, and diversify their
skills a
>bit, imo.
<boggle> You want your players to diversify *toward* combat??? I have
trouble breaking them away from it!
>> And of the archetypes, I
>> didn't see too many of them who had more than 1 die to spare if they
>> threw as much combat pool into a given attack to double it. And the
ones
>> that did usually didn't have combat skills that were *that* high
anyway.
>Street Samurai: Firearms 5, Unarmed Combat 6 (and hand razors)
>Mercenary: Firearms 6, Armed Combat 6 CP: 8
>Former Company Man: Firearms 6, Unarmed Combat 6 CP: 5
>Bodyguard: Firearms 6, Unarmed Combat 6 CP: 8
Rigger: Firearms 2 CP: 8
Combat Mage: Firearms 3, Unarmed Combat 2 CP: 7 (9)
Detective: Firearms 6, Unarmed Combat 6, CP: 7
And we'll ignore the deckers:)
>No, they don't have a great many dice left following that, but have
likely
>waxed the target with 4 added dice to the attack (10 dice), at least
that's
>been my experience. I liked that the old pools (dodge/defense)
represented
>your ability to defend against incoming attacks, representing your
dividing
>your attention between incoming threats, and that one or two attacks
usually
>depleted your reserve of defending dice, you had to rely on Body after
that.
OTOH, for low initiative characters (like mages, deckers and riggers),
having that combat pool gives them a chance at survival until their turn
finally comes up. And, if you really despise the new pools, go back to
the old ones. Or use the optional rules on page 48 of the SR Companion
for an SR2 Dodge pool.
>I'd almost like to see something like what I proposed for Sorcery Pools
(under
>the drain discussion): Base a dice pool off of firearms (or whichever
combat
>skill you use on your action) to attack _and_ defend with. If you don't
use
>all your Firearms dice in the attack test, you can save them to dodge
(this
>meaning you're snapping off quick shots and keeping in cover a lot and
>watching for possible attacks). And you could only use the
*appropriate*
>skill to defend against an incoming attack (though melee weapons and
unarmed
>combat would be interchangeable, as might firearms and projectile/thrown
>weapons).
Actually, what I saw for Sorcery seemed to be *exactly* the same as the
current rules for Magic Pool:)
>> <shrug> To each his own, I suppose. Dice pools wind up being a lot of
>> extra paperwork, though.
>I found Threat Ratings too abstract for me, and GMing the most I found
the
>dice pools comfy. They were simpler when they only came into defense
(1st ed)
>and I still prefer them that way.
As I said, to each his own:)
>> I just don't hear too many others advocating the removal of dice
pools:)
>Maybe it's my pet peeve. I see it as the simplest way to remove excess
dice,
>as they're the single biggest source of extra dice.
All depends on what you consider as 'extra' dice.
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:27:09 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Apology (was: re: SR/ED ties )
On Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:42:56 -0400 Archie Burks <Dragathor@***.COM>
writes:
<<Sorry to all.>>
Don't worry about it. Next time, just include spoiler space.
<<I didn't realize that my post would be considered by some as a spoiler.
I
was just trying to see if anyone out there had a simular opion on the
topic.
In the futur I will try to contain my post to general knowledge or the
rules
themselves.>>
Well, info that isn't supposed to be general knowledge among characters,
or includes recent events in the FASA game world (like the death of a
certain 'person' :) should probably be considered as spoilers. This
should include the endings to adventures, whether old or not. So, don't
worry about limiting yourself to rules and general knowledge stuff, just
be prepared to put in spoiler space for other stuff.
<<Also, when I siad the the worlds were defined by the rise and fall of
magic,
I did mean that odd were without and even with magic. I just didn't say
it
that way.>>
Well, why don't you say what you mean?
:)
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:56:27 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PRONE <downsa@******.EDU>
Subject: shotguns and silencers
hello all,
had a bit of a problem in my last gaming session. a player bought a
mossberg CMDT and equipped it with a Imp. gasvent IV. i disagreed with this
player, with the thought that niether silencers nor gasvents which are placed
on the ends of the barrels, could withstand the force of the exiting round of
a shotgun. however, i cannot find the ruling in the books to back my airy
statement. any help would be appreciated.
Aaron
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 02:06:50 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: FASA Site
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Is it me, or is there something wrong with the FASA site. I haven't been
able to access it all weekend?
Darned puzzling it is.
--
Dark Avenger
Reality was an illusion caused by a lack of alcohol, now it's not an
illusion anymore :)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:22:27 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Fortune Tellers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Okay, before you send buckets of big smelly carp my way, let me explain
what I am looking for. ;)
I am not really looking for any rules regarding whether fortune telling is
accurate, if/when/how it is allowable or anything of the like. I have
already made my own decisions for my campaign in this regard, and am pretty
sure that any decisions about this are considered house rules anyway. ;)
What I *am* looking for are some ideas for what an exotic fortune teller of
strong reputation would ask for payment. I have an idea for an exotic
fortune teller from the middle east who is very good at what she
does...almost too good. She has many powerful clients (who do their best
not to be seen with her, of course). She is blind to the physical world,
but has a strong psychometric (aura reading) ability.
Now, I could just say that she is very expensive. That in itself would
limit access to her. I could even give her an eclectic schedule, so
finding her when she is in isn't always easy. However, I don't want to cop
out and just have her charge money. Any ideas on what else she may expect
for payment besides nu yen?
Thanks :)
Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:25:48 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Physical Adpets, what do you play?
In-Reply-To: <19970706221943.7083.rocketmail@*****.rocketmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
OK,
I have managed to upset my wife by convincing her to play a Phys Ad in my
game.
What sort of characters do you play when playing a PA?
They never will be anywhere near as powerful as a sammy, right?
What are the advantages of playing one in SRII?
The last time I really played was SRI, where Adpets seemed to be more
powerful.
I know this is probably an old subject, but pointers to relative texts
would be extremely helpful.
Thanks,
Jaymz
/-justin@****.mcp.com----------------------jbell@****.mcp.com--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:31:40 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <Dreadnaut1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: shotguns and silencers
Aaron asked:
> had a bit of a problem in my last gaming session. a player bought
a
> mossberg CMDT and equipped it with a Imp. gasvent IV. i disagreed with
this
> player, with the thought that niether silencers nor gasvents which are
> placed
> on the ends of the barrels, could withstand the force of the exiting round
> of
> a shotgun. however, i cannot find the ruling in the books to back my airy
> statement. any help would be appreciated.
>
Actually, I'm pretty sure you can Gas Vent a shotgun, however, you can't fire
shot from a Gas Vented shotgun, and only a sound suppressor will keep the
noise down, and that only works with solid slugs as well.
In addition, since shotguns are so damn loud, the sound suppressor is less
efficient.
Later-
Duncan
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:33:59 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: The Spaceman <spaced@*.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Fortune Tellers
In-Reply-To: <199707070123.VAA08166@****.provide.net>
>>>>> Justin Pinnow didst say unto the aether thusly:
# Now, I could just say that she is very expensive. That in itself would
# limit access to her. I could even give her an eclectic schedule, so
# finding her when she is in isn't always easy. However, I don't want to cop
# out and just have her charge money. Any ideas on what else she may expect
# for payment besides nu yen?
The classic Mafia "you will owe me a favour to collected upon later"
pops immediately to mind. You could also have her ask for a unique item or
service ("you must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with.... a
herring!"). Maybe she's got exotic tastes, and wants the first bottle of
Beaujolais 2058 personally addressed and delivered to her. So the runners
have to deal with the vineyards, with the customer (undoubtedly a AAA mega)
who reserved the first bottle, deal with possible breakage, etc., etc.
The Spaceman |The man that hath no music in himself
spaced@*.washington.edu |...is fit for treasons, stratagems,
Check out the Bill Page! |and spoils - Lorenzo (Merchant of V.)
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~spaced/bill.html
New maintainer of the Shadowrun Player Directory:
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~spaced/srdir/
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:03:58 -0700
Reply-To: mbreton@**.netcom.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: NPC maintenance
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Any GMs out there have good tips for keeping NPCs easily? I was
thinking of using index cards, but feel that might require a lot of
writing. Are there any computer programs out there that make life
easier when it comes to NPC generation and/or filing? The only program
I have found is on Paolo's site, but the address is incorrect.
Amusing (?) story about notecards: I was running an ADnD game in
college when I discovered the great use of index cards - I kept
everything important on them, started the campaign off by holding up a
single adventure and declaring that I had the entire adventure written
on it.
I thought they were perfect, absolutely no flaws..
...until I overheard one of the players talking, after an adventure,
whether they thought a particular item had any importance. "Couldn't
be," said one of the guys, "He didn't have to look on an index card for
it."
After that, I started keeping quite a few important items in my head and
one full sheets of paper, but it was disheartening, to say the least.
Those were the days..
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 22:28:52 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: [SR3] Barriers
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Loki once dared to write,
>I don't know if anyone has mentioned this for S/R III, but I'd
>personally like some retouching on the barrier rules.
There's something I almost overlooked. An example of breaking
through would also be helpful. I had to make all sorts of notes and
charts to figure it out and even then it still wasn't that clear.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:36:26 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: FASA Site
In-Reply-To: <868237642.0715400.0@*******.demon.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 02:06 7/7/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Is it me, or is there something wrong with the FASA site. I haven't been
>able to access it all weekend?
>
>Darned puzzling it is.
They have some sort of instant ad for the SR CCG, I believe.. you load the
page, and its supposed to display the ad, then goto the main page. I know
lynx ( my primary browser ), just coughs on it, though..
-Aj
--
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@*ndernet \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
"Can I have a cup of angst to go with my un-happy meal?" -- Hi & Lois
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:03:31 -0700
Reply-To: mbreton@**.netcom.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: Fortune Tellers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Okay, before you send buckets of big smelly carp my way, let me explain
> what I am looking for. ;)
> I am not really looking for any rules regarding whether fortune telling is
> accurate, if/when/how it is allowable or anything of the like. I have
> already made my own decisions for my campaign in this regard, and am pretty
> sure that any decisions about this are considered house rules anyway. ;)
> What I *am* looking for are some ideas for what an exotic fortune teller of
> strong reputation would ask for payment. I have an idea for an exotic
> fortune teller from the middle east who is very good at what she
> does...almost too good. She has many powerful clients (who do their best
> not to be seen with her, of course). She is blind to the physical world,
> but has a strong psychometric (aura reading) ability.
Ahh, the question arises: Does she really tell fortunes? I had one
palmreader use spells; the players all assumed it was Foretelling (from
Awakenings, realeased the week before the particular adventure) when it
was really a Control Emotion spell (grin) - set to trigger the players
into more or less forcing the particular future the fortune teller
wanted to come true.
> Now, I could just say that she is very expensive. That in itself would
> limit access to her. I could even give her an eclectic schedule, so
> finding her when she is in isn't always easy. However, I don't want to cop
> out and just have her charge money. Any ideas on what else she may expect
> for payment besides nu yen?
She's really a bug shaman (no, that was done in the UB sourcebook..)
Definitely go with the eclectic schedule; maybe she follows solar
eclipses as they pan across the earth? And she might be more willing
(and thus able to see more clearly) if you presented her with magic
items, stolen infants, sacrifices of virginity (possibly to her), a
'loss of fortune' = giving all your money to the charity the characters
hate most (Aztech Security Guard Retirement Fund - she has a son in the
Jaguars) or just an trip of fate that causes them to lose most of hteir
money, or anything else that would prevent them from visiting her in the
future (rigger's copter blows up, etcet.)
Or possibly, she can 'sell' one possible future (make away with the
Secret Prototype) but only at the expense of another (your family dies)
and so it's possible to bargain all night and never come out ahead - the
very act of bargaining changing the future, blather.
> Thanks :)
Was it even comprehensible?
-Matt
> Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:03:38 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA Site
On Sun, 6 Jul 1997 20:36:26 -0600 Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA> writes:
<<They have some sort of instant ad for the SR CCG, I believe.. you load
the
page, and its supposed to display the ad, then goto the main page. I
know
lynx ( my primary browser ), just coughs on it, though..>>
You're not along - the AOL browser (Gah!) loads the ad and stops. Good
thing I could remember that FASA's SR directory was
http://www.fasa.com/Shadowrun/ - and that they had an obvious SR home
page (SRHOME.html:) Haven't tried accessing the directories for BT or ED.
Probably work out the same way, though.
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:03:38 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Fortune Tellers
On Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:22:27 -0400 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
writes:
>Any ideas on what else she may expect for payment besides nu yen?
She's magical, correct? Send them on a trip after some rare, Awakened tea
leaves:) Perhaps she needs access to a magical library - only the letters
have to be printed with orichalcum ink so that she can read it from the
astral:) Or she needs some of a rare, expensive radical from some arcana
or other and can't enchant it herself. Or she needs help on some magical
theory somesuch and needs the players to contact her old teacher - who
happens to be stuck in Chi-town (might not work, depending on when the
game is set). Etc, etc, etc.
:)
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:12:47 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Skill Limits
In-Reply-To: <199707041844.MAA14297@******> from "Adam J" at Jul 4,
97 12:44:52 pm
Content-Type: text
Adam J wrote:
|
| This is my biggest pet peeve, and I'm in the middle of writing an article
| about it for TSS. Characters will 4 or 5 skills/spells at 6, and nothing
| lower. I know that everyone wants to make a character that is going to
| survive a few encounters, and I can respect that. However, some people
| have the attitude that 'If its not useful in extremely obvious ways, its
| useless'. The street sammy with Firearms, Street Eti, Stealth, and Armed
| Combat, all at 6, and nothing else. Is he so good at all of that, and so
| bad at everything else that it doesn't rate?
| A real human, most of us, have a TON of skills, too many to fit in any game
| description, and all at varying levels. While most of us have several that
| shine, we have alot that don't, but still are useful once in awhile. How
| come most Shadowrun characters don't?
Try this. Starting characters may have 1 skill at 6, 2 at 5, 4 at 4, 6 at
3, and so on. If multiples of 2 don't work use multiples of 3
(1,3,6,9,12,15). Or you could use powers of 2 (1,2,4,8,16,32) or 3
(1,3,9,27..), whatever works best for your campaign.
| Well, this has nothing to do with third edition, but :)
At least it's about Shadowrun :)
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink! - The sound of a crescent roll being stolen.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:14:11 -0700
Reply-To: mbreton@**.netcom.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Steve Kenson wrote:
> OK, survey question #2 (following up on the Pet Peeves thread):
> Many people have suggested setting Spell Drain TNs back at Force instead of
> F/2. What do people think of this? Please remember, I need to know WHY you
> think the idea is good or bad.
I'd vote for full Force on drain, but this is because I like to have
weird Force modifiers that aren't (yet?) in SR canon - Force*2 or
Force^2 for reallllly high-voltage spells. Just easier to calculate,
that's all.
> Steve K.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:15:48 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
In-Reply-To: <199707041356.HAA18848@******> from "Bruce" at Jul 3,
97 02:15:24 pm
Content-Type: text
Bruce wrote:
|
| >And of course initiation is a collossal rip-off for physads... They have to
| >spend at least 20 karma to get to grade 1 at which time they get to spend
| >another whole point! Wow, I can buy a general skill at level 4 or get a
| >whole physad point!
| >
| >>>>>>>Agreed. I solved this by cutting the costs of Physad powers
in half
| after character generation.<<<<<<<
As others have said, for Priority B the system is fine, IMHO. What I'm
thinking of doing is allowing Priority A PhysAds, which have 2 points to
spend on PA abilities per point of Magic. My reasoning is that Priority A
Magicians have basically twice as many options as Priority B Adepts.
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink! - The sound of a crescent roll being stolen.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:23:54 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA Site
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> You're not along - the AOL browser (Gah!) loads the ad and stops. Good
> thing I could remember that FASA's SR directory was
> http://www.fasa.com/Shadowrun/ - and that they had an obvious SR home
> page (SRHOME.html:) Haven't tried accessing the directories for BT or ED.
> Probably work out the same way, though.
Have patience people.
It appears to just be working on a timed "push" system.
Yes you get stuck at the ad for awhile, but eventually you skip ahead to
the main page.
Then again, some browsers may not support push tech after all ... sorry.
Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"Every word is nonsense, but I understand ..." - Counting Crows
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:29:30 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Walker of Shadows <OABBrother@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Effects of Bioware on magic...
In a message dated 97-07-05 03:29:14 EDT, you write:
<< My name is David and this is my second post. I figured that it would be
more fun to be known as my street name here so refer to me as Gabriel.
Anyways, to my questoin:
I don't own the source book(s) that refer to bioware and its effects on
essence and magic. The character generaters I have for SR both show
that bioware has no effect on magic. I was just recently told that
bioware does indeed affect magic the same way that cyberware does. It
however does not affect essence. My questions then are this: First,
does bioware affect a character's magic rating? Second if it does
affect magic then why does it not affect essence? Finally, if there is
a difference between someones essence and magic, then why do they
correspond almost exactly to each other (essence loss reduces magic,
initiation increases essence and magic both)?
As I said before I'm new to this mailing list and to the SR game
itself. So any knowledge is helpful!
Gabriel
>>
Actually, the rules say that it does affect essence. But only to magical
characters, because of the same reasons that doctors can't use their high
powered sergical toys...it frags with their magic. And since their magic is
so closly related to their essence, it reduces essence the same amount as the
body cout gained, and permanantly.
Walker of Shadows
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:32:23 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Walker of Shadows <OABBrother@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Pools
In a message dated 97-07-05 23:09:12 EDT, you write:
<< Hi,
I have a small problem, My SR2 manual was lost and I need some clarification
on the combat pool. To calculate its value you would add INT, WIL, and QIC
then divide by two? I believe this is the proper way, if I am wrong then
please let me know.
Thank you, Archie
>>
You have it correct.
I think.
Walker of Shadows
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:35:37 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Walker of Shadows <OABBrother@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Request for feedback.
In a message dated 97-07-06 00:13:48 EDT, you write:
<< - When speaking about the Physical Adept Ability of Improved Physical
Senses (p.125 SRII) the book says that, "Unless an improvement involves a
radio or similar technological phenomena, anything that can be improved
by cyberware can be improved by this power." Would the GM's out there
support buying Physical Adept versions of the Spatial Recognizer and the
Balance Augmentor (p. 24 CYBERTECHNOLOGY)?
---------------
Bill Coleman >>
Absolutally, it just represents the pycad's body improving it's balance and
hearing and soforth.
Walker of Shadows
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:39:56 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Walker of Shadows <OABBrother@***.COM>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
In a message dated 97-07-06 05:31:06 EDT, you write:
<< Anyways, how does such a rule apply to spell casting since a skill
isn't directly involved in the roll? Is it 1's equal to or greater
than the force of the spell means an oops? This means force 1 spells
are rather touchy. Is it equal to or greater than Sorcery? This means
someone with a Sorcery skill of 6 that's rolling five dice or less
from spell force and pool can never screw it up.
We finally ruled that 1's equal to or greater than Sorcery -OR- all
dice coming up 1's, whichever is lower, means the spell caster flubbed
it.
Ideas, comments or suggestions?
>>
I believe that it was the rating of the spell or force of the
spirit/elemental (check the Shadowrun Companion), and then if it went over
it was a misfire and something went wrong, like a different elemental was
conjured a level above or below or the spell blew up in the caster's face, or
one time I had a manipulation spell create a new paranormal <insert evil
laugh now> which attacked the runners. It is lots of fun what you can do.
Enjoy,
Walker of Shadows
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:03:56 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Aaron once dared to write,
>some evidence to back this idea that blood elf thorns are genetic, jenna
>from tir tairngire, daughter of ol' queen alachia (of bloodwood fame) had a
>painting in her house of her with thorns. apart from that small bit o'
>evidence, this is just a theory.
No, the picture was of Queen Alachia. And because I don't recall
anyone ever stating it before, Hasn't anyone ever considered that the
Ritual of Thorns was undone? There would be no need to prevent any growth
of thorns then.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:05:27 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@*CUNIX.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
>Ah, someone else who fails to rise to the bait :) Agreed, wasting time
>should definately be more fun than starting flames. Oh well, guess I'll
>have to go find Nightlife and start quoting Jurassic Park at him again
><grin>
Doh! Nope no tonight I just finished a weekend of double shifts and I'm way
too tired.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:10:37 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Kabael once dared to write,
>>Nope. It's very limited adept magic. Think about it.
>>A quickening viewed from astral resembles a thread. We just haven't figured
>>out how to weave them into REALLY powerful spells.... Yet.....
>>
>
>really! now that is interesting, but what does SR magic have drain, while ED
>doesnt. Is that another step. Maybe Initiates become Adepts (ED style)
>eventually, would other characters develop something akin to initiation,
>imagine an Discipline for Decking, or a Street Samurai Adept (again, ED
>type : )
What do you think Strain is? If you like, you can consider Thread
Weaving a centering skill. Now if you follow the guideline that practiced
continual shared belief shapes magic then to get the adepts you speak of
would take a tightly focused dedication followed over generations to
achieve. We have no worries of this coming to pass in the Shadowrun time
line we play in.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:14:13 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PRONE <downsa@******.EDU>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties
Aaron once dared to write,
>some evidence to back this idea that blood elf thorns are genetic, jenna
>from tir tairngire, daughter of ol' queen alachia (of bloodwood fame) had a
>painting in her house of her with thorns. apart from that small bit o'
>evidence, this is just a theory.
MC23 wrote:
- No, the picture was of Queen Alachia. And because I don't recall
-anyone ever stating it before, Hasn't anyone ever considered that the
-Ritual of Thorns was undone? There would be no need to prevent any growth
-of thorns then.
if i remember correctly, there's an ed sourcebook for the bloodwood and the
ritual of thorns is theoretically reversible. but alachia, in her pride, won't
reverse it because it will mean that she made a mistake in allowing it to be
cast. the blood wood itself puts forth a reason, somehow the ritual changed
the wood (not just the name change of wyrm to blood) and the wood's pattern.
changing it back would take great amounts of power.
Aaron
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:21:21 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Aaron once dared to write,
>if i remember correctly, there's an ed sourcebook for the bloodwood and the
>ritual of thorns is theoretically reversible. but alachia, in her pride,
>won't
>reverse it because it will mean that she made a mistake in allowing it to be
>cast. the blood wood itself puts forth a reason, somehow the ritual changed
>the wood (not just the name change of wyrm to blood) and the wood's pattern.
>changing it back would take great amounts of power.
The 4th world has ended in Shadowrun but not in Earthdawn. By this
I'm saying that what happened to the Blood Wood in the end has yet to be
revealed. Don't forget there is a living legend cult dedicated to undoing
the Ritual of Thorns. Maybe they succeed.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:27:25 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
---Gurth wrote:
<snip>
> Anyway, seeing that Cybertechnology gives a 50x multiplier to the
costs,
> that still makes drastic invasive alpha grade surgery cost 12.5
million,
> and puts it out of the reach of just about everyone.
I ran into the same issues. The 50x for Alpha/Beta or the 200x for
Delta on surgery and recovery can make things just ridiculous. I
finally ruled that Alpha/Beta are 150% and Delta 200% of the normal
surgery and recovery fees. (Basically a Street Index of 1.5 and 2 for
medical costs on custom cyberware, which seems more in keeping with
the system.)
===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:31:49 -0700
Reply-To: mbreton@**.netcom.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Stick to the shadows, chummers,
> Steve
Congrats, Steve (ya lucky joik). Although there are a lot of ideas
bubbling around in my head, only one comes out clearly now, and it has
nothing to do with the magic system... I *swear* from my newbie days
that there were wo condition monitors in SR2, one that listed "Light"
wounds as Box 1 only, another that listed Light wounds as Boxes 1-2 - a
big difference when you take healing spells into account. I finally
settled my own way, I'm not sure if FASA has errata on it, but it
through off a new player I just introduced to the game today, so it
needs fixing.
And one of these days I'll stop using run-on sentences.
Congrats again, looking forward...
-Matt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:30:46 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <Dreadnaut1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Fortune Tellers
Justin said:
> # Now, I could just say that she is very expensive. That in itself would
> # limit access to her. I could even give her an eclectic schedule, so
> # finding her when she is in isn't always easy. However, I don't want to
> cop
> # out and just have her charge money. Any ideas on what else she may
expect
> # for payment besides nu yen?
>
Send the runner who wants his ( or her ) fortune told on a maniacly difficult
astral quest ( or a really strange hallucination/dream for the un-initiated
), revealing anything you wish in an inanely complicated metaphor...
She does very little for them herself, but to get anything major out of her
requires loads of work on the players' part, which is far better than sending
them a huge bill.
Then there is the ever popular exchange of information. She asks them for
info they don't have, thus forcing them to dig up a piece of dirt to find
what they really wish to know.
Later-
Duncan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:32:11 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 06 Jul 1997 20:27:09 -0400 (EDT)"
<19970706.202554.17111.3.lobo1@****.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
You wrote:
> <boggle> You want your players to diversify *toward* combat??? I have
> trouble breaking them away from it!
Well, not really. But when folks who don't have combat skills (i.e. experience
in combat) they tend to get waxed, simple as that. Instead they tend to
survive based on attributes in the right places... that doesn't make sense to
me.
> And we'll ignore the deckers:)
You know a lot of deckers go tanking in the gunfights, let me know. I want to
meet such brave individuals. :)
> OTOH, for low initiative characters (like mages, deckers and riggers),
> having that combat pool gives them a chance at survival until their turn
> finally comes up. And, if you really despise the new pools, go back to
> the old ones. Or use the optional rules on page 48 of the SR Companion
> for an SR2 Dodge pool.
That's what I did, and that's why I'm advocating said position.
> Actually, what I saw for Sorcery seemed to be *exactly* the same as the
> current rules for Magic Pool:)
Well, I posted something to the list earlier about magic pool to the effect
that: you had a pool of dice equal to sorcery skill which could be spent to
give force to a spell (the spell had no force unless dice were allocated from
this pool, that is), for spell defense, or to resist drain for casting spells.
That's what I was referring to, sorry for any confusion.
> >Maybe it's my pet peeve. I see it as the simplest way to remove excess
> dice,
> >as they're the single biggest source of extra dice.
> All depends on what you consider as 'extra' dice.
Aye.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:38:11 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: shotguns and silencers
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 06 Jul 1997 20:56:27 -0500 (EST)"
<009B6DD7.89599F60.54@******.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
> hello all,
> had a bit of a problem in my last gaming session. a player bought a
> mossberg CMDT and equipped it with a Imp. gasvent IV. i disagreed with this
> player, with the thought that niether silencers nor gasvents which are placed
> on the ends of the barrels, could withstand the force of the exiting round of
> a shotgun. however, i cannot find the ruling in the books to back my airy
> statement. any help would be appreciated.
Actually, Aaron, I don't think there's anything in the rules that says you
can't. You could certainly rule as such however, I've never heard of anyone
trying to silence a shotgun. Silencers for them may just be unavailable, but I
wouldn't say that the 'force of the exiting round' has anything to do with it,
any more than it would for a pistol, rifle, or SMG. Even the Barret I think
can be silenced (check Fields of Fire, if the Barret can be silenced, then
there should be no technical problem silencing a shotgun in like manner).
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:08:29 -0700
Reply-To: granite@**.net
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <granite@**.net>
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Organization: Granite Forge Productions
Subject: Re: Name Players in Books (OT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> Granite...Fro....(congrats)
Thanks..I still haven't seen it...And I probably won't until I hit
GenCon if this valley stays true to form...
> (bows in heavy admiration, kisses the ground........
You may rise... ;p
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
===============================================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:41:13 -0400
Reply-To: shergold@***********.net
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Shergold <shergold@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: Fortune Tellers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> On Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:22:27 -0400 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
> writes:
>
>Any ideas on what else she may expect for payment besides nu yen?
If she uses Tarot Cards in addition to reading palms or whatever, how
about she sends the runners on a search for the deck used/created by
Aleister Crowley? Maybe send them into the Amazon for a truly rare plant
that blooms only on a full moon under certain conditions for a special
ceremony she has been researching during her entire adult life.
Hopefully my contributions help and don't sound too stupid.
SilverFire
"I merely chewed in self-defense."
-Draco the Dragon
"Dragonheart"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:51:01 -0400
Reply-To: shergold@***********.net
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Shergold <shergold@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: shotguns and silencers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<stuff snipped>
losthalo wrote:
> Actually, Aaron, I don't think there's anything in the rules that says
you
> can't. You could certainly rule as such however, I've never heard of
anyone
> trying to silence a shotgun. Silencers for them may just be unavailable,
but I
> wouldn't say that the 'force of the exiting round' has anything to do
with it,
> any more than it would for a pistol, rifle, or SMG. Even the Barret I
think
> can be silenced (check Fields of Fire, if the Barret can be silenced,
then
> there should be no technical problem silencing a shotgun in like manner).
I believe there is sound suppresion for the Barret, but I don't believe
that it can be truly silenced considering the size and all. The only reason
I know that it can be muffled is that one of my Street Sams got it as part
of payment for a run for some guy in the Army who called himself Sgt.
Slaughter for some ungodly reason. Of course the less said about that run
the better.
SilverFire
"I merely chewed in self-defense."
-Draco the Dragon
"Dragonheart"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:11:05 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 06 Jul 1997 21:27:25 -0700"
<19970707042725.8602.rocketmail@*****.rocketmail.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
You wrote:
> I ran into the same issues. The 50x for Alpha/Beta or the 200x for
> Delta on surgery and recovery can make things just ridiculous. I
> finally ruled that Alpha/Beta are 150% and Delta 200% of the normal
> surgery and recovery fees. (Basically a Street Index of 1.5 and 2 for
> medical costs on custom cyberware, which seems more in keeping with
> the system.)
Just a note in defense of said original prices, if you control one of the
*only* sources in the *world*, you can name your price so long as someone is
willing to pay it, enough someone's to keep you in business.
Myself, I've always wondered a bit after the prices of WR 2 and 3 anyway. Look
at CP's prices on cyber, I think they're a lot more realistic. 500,000 Nuyen
for a Cortex bomb? Can't be worth it, I'm sorry. 9,000 for retractable hand
razors? Come on, can you see anyone paying that kind of money?
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:23:11 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
In-Reply-To: <01IKXQX1HWI89I4HLS@******.acs.muohio.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 01:11 7/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Myself, I've always wondered a bit after the prices of WR 2 and 3 anyway.
Look
>at CP's prices on cyber, I think they're a lot more realistic. 500,000 Nuyen
>for a Cortex bomb? Can't be worth it, I'm sorry. 9,000 for retractable hand
>razors? Come on, can you see anyone paying that kind of money?
If they were much more cheaper, it would be cost effective for every corp
to wire every important employee with a remote detonated cortext bomb.
Same with spurs, if they were 1,000, anyone could afford to have the
suckers implanted after only a few months savings.
Except me, I still don't have a real job. :P
-Adam
--
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@*ndernet \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
"Can I have a cup of angst to go with my un-happy meal?" -- Hi & Lois
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:20:48 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Court Schuett <schuett@*****.IVCC.EDU>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970707084747.27566A-100000@*******.dialix.co m.au>
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>The official word from FASA's Mike Mulvilhill is that the thorn growth
>was due to a ritual performed at the birth of the elf, and is in no way
>genetic. Thus, unless someone starts doing the rituals again, no elves
>in Shadowrun will start looking like bald rosebushes.
>
>Lady Jestyr
What about IE though? Someone like Alachia would still have the thorns in
her, right, just not manifested so to speak.
?
-=Court
/* Court Schuett, a totally modern boy.
schuett@*****.ivcc.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When I made a shadow on my window shade
they called the police and testified
But they're like the people chained up in the cave
in the allegory of the people in the cave
by the Greek guy
No one understands
No one knows my plan
-They Might Be Giants
***************************************************************************/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:29:39 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 06 Jul 1997 23:23:11 -0600"
<3.0.2.32.19970706232311.006e3ccc@****.lis.ab.ca>
MIME-version: 1.0
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You wrote:
> If they were much more cheaper, it would be cost effective for every corp
> to wire every important employee with a remote detonated cortext bomb.
> Same with spurs, if they were 1,000, anyone could afford to have the
> suckers implanted after only a few months savings.
It already is cost-effective for corps, they produce the things. Those prices
are retail, the cost of production cannot be even near 235K for WR2. I'm not
saying it isn't pertinent to gamebalance, rather that they are not even
remotely in keeping with real-world pricing. I'd say the essence cost, not the
nuyen price, keeps corps from implanting wire in all their security.
> Except me, I still don't have a real job. :P
Ah, join the club.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:35:45 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Physical Adpets, what do you play?
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 06 Jul 1997 20:25:48 -0500"
<3.0.1.32.19970706202548.007d9270@***.iquest.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
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You wrote:
> They never will be anywhere near as powerful as a sammy, right?
All depends on your point of view.
> What are the advantages of playing one in SRII?
Subtlety, superior stealth, unusual and unexpected abilities.
> The last time I really played was SRI, where Adpets seemed to be more
> powerful.
They were, but too powerful in the eyes of many.
Think of the legends about ninja, berserkers, and the like, people who could
push their bodies beyond sane human limits. They can take some o fthe same
roles as samurai, but don't have the heavy reaction abilities of the street
sam. But they can out-stealth him, and outdo him in melee combat, among other
things. Some perform more like AD&D thieves, others simply boost their
attributes and fighting skills, etc...
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:02:31 -0800
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: david lowe <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: sr/ed ties (Dragons 'n stuff)
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Does anyone know of a section (I belive it's in the Atzlan sourcebook, but
for the life of me, I can't find it) where they talk about what's inside
Atzlan temples? I vaguely recall something like shrouded forms with astral
conduits to them, and a reply from someone like Dunk about "do you realize
what that means? etc?". I'm working on a theory about a particular horror
and I need to find that reference. Any help would be appreciated.
D.
David R. Lowe (dlowe@****.com)
Photography/Graphic Design
"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:08:37 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
In-Reply-To: <199707051021.MAA05502@**********.xs4all.nl>
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At 05-Jul-97 wrote Gurth:
>Anyway, seeing that Cybertechnology gives a 50x multiplier to the costs,
>that still makes drastic invasive alpha grade surgery cost 12.5 million,
>and puts it out of the reach of just about everyone.
Hmmm.........12.5million?
I can`t follow you here.
My calculations lead me to 45.500 for standard
2.275mega and 9.1mega for alpha/delta hospitalizion costs.
And thats for the worst case of no body successes.
--
Barbie
==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.
(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)
==================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:03:13 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
MIME-Version: 1.0
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---Walker of Shadows wrote:
>
> I believe that it was the rating of the spell or force of the
> spirit/elemental (check the Shadowrun Companion), and then if it
went over
> it was a misfire and something went wrong, like a different
elemental was
> conjured a level above or below or the spell blew up in the caster's
face, or
> one time I had a manipulation spell create a new paranormal <insert
evil
> laugh now> which attacked the runners. It is lots of fun what you
can do.
I remember the time a shaman in my original group oops'd when casting
Mana Missle at a security guard. I informed him he stammered in
casting the spell and it came out <spanish> Mañana </spanish>
Missle...but not to worry since the spell would hit him tomorrow. :o)
===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 03:21:31 -0700
Reply-To: mbreton@**.netcom.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: SR3
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Bull wrote:
> I have one comment to make...
> Do -*NOT*- change the basic rules the way you did from 1st ed. to 2nd ed.
On a completely non-related issue -- First Ed was Big Blue; Second Ed
was Big Black -- what color will Third Ed be? (Big Brown?)
> I think that would be a mistake. However, defiantely update the
> Matrix/Rigger sections, and include full lists for spells, phys-ad powers,
> and weapons and such. Don;t bother with descriptioons and such though...
> taht way we still have to buy the sourcebooks if we want anything more than
> basic numbers on it...:]
Bull, if you didn't have that smiley there...
I could possibly see a boxed set with one basic rules booklet and one
equipment booklet (as well as magic booklet and matrix booklet) <==
crappy idea. Scrap it.
I *would* like to see better descriptions of the Basic Tech (especially
Wired Reflexes!) offered, something along the lines of the Shadowtech
descriptions. Revise the Body Index rules, and perhaps inject some
crossover items (Bone Lacing, in my mind, should have both a BI rating
and cost Essence).
On a nearly-related thread, one way to end the problem of characters
starting out with the magnatech items is simply not to have any items in
the Basic Bxxx with an Availability over 6....
> Don't include the new optional stiff from the companion (i.e., Variant
> metatypes and Edges and Flaws.) If you include it in the main rulebook,
> regardless of whether you stick the <optional> tag on it or not, too many
> players will want to use it as standard ("Well it's in the main book!").
I'd drop the optional metatypes altogether, revamp the Flaws so as to
eliminate the hosers (Lightning Reflexes, Magic Invulnerability...)
-Matt
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 03:23:26 -0700
Reply-To: mbreton@**.netcom.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: Skill Limits
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> Try this. Starting characters may have 1 skill at 6, 2 at 5, 4 at 4, 6 at
> 3, and so on. If multiples of 2 don't work use multiples of 3
> (1,3,6,9,12,15). Or you could use powers of 2 (1,2,4,8,16,32) or 3
> (1,3,9,27..), whatever works best for your campaign.
Sounds a little like Vampire... do you have similar pyramids for the
different priority levels?
I fully admit the slanted-skill characters are definitely a problem, I'm
just not sure this is the solution :)
-Matt
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 03:41:31 -0700
Reply-To: mbreton@**.netcom.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
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John E Pederson wrote:
> Figured I'd go ahead and give a few more comments while I was at this:)
> My personal pet peeves with SR:
> What does all this stuff do???
> -Three fourths of the the cyberware isn't really explained as to how it
> does what it does. Wired Reflexes is my current favorite example. What
> about the blood filter? How on earth do you filter *everything* that goes
> into someone's blood? :) I guess I just like to have answers.
Heartily seconded. As I mentioned in another post, I'd like to see
Shadowtech-style write-ups for all, though I understand that might be a
bit large for the main rulebook.
Passing thought: Streetdoc sourcebook devoted to creating cyberware?
Or perhaps better linking from 'generic' cyberware to name-brand
cyberware - free upgrades from Smartlink I to II from ARES this month...
> Lots of people have problems with the binding, I've seen this, too. I've
> watched four different people buy copies of the SR softcover, only for
> three of the four to have the covers falling off and pages falling out
> within months. The one guy whose book isn't suffering this problem is the
> guy who had the covers and spine laminated (via contact paper) to protect
> them.
As far as the binding goes, both my SRI and SRII are fine -- it's the
covers I hate; they get all pebbly...
> Sample adventure. I don't know how many times I've wished to have had a
> sample adventure in the main book I coul look at, just for reference, if
> nothing else.
But better than the food fight...
> Allergies. Nuisance allergies shouldn't give any bonuses at all, and the
> allergies rule needs to be better described. As it is, it is *totally*
> vague and *very* open to abuse by munchy players (voice of experience
> here, having seen players create characters with something like 20+ extra
> attribute points with nothing except nuisance allergies - and no, they
> didn't tell me first).
Heartily seconded. More variety to them, too: allergies to animal fur,
cotton clothing, CRT emissions...
> What does all this stuff look like? We've got pics for heavy pistols,
> HMGs, and ligt pistols, but what about everything else? Just how big *is*
> an assault cannon, anyway?
Perhaps just reformating everything into an Uber-Tech sourcebook...
Glossies and full-page description of every piece of cyber/bio/nanoware
ever presented in SR...
> Negotiation, Etiquette, Languages, et al. Put the rules for social skills
> in a more prominent fashion. Don't toss them in the miscellaneous
> section, make sure to emphasive that SR isn't just about blowing things
> up.
> Encumbrance rules. ditto. Might put these as guidelines in the character
> creation section, it avoids things like characters lugging around 100kg
> of C-12 at a time.
Or under an explanation of the Strength attribute... Though they were
revamped in FoF, iirc, they are in Basic Black -- 5kg/point of Strength,
I think.
> Maps. Lots of people want more of a map, I'd wouldn't be against it
> myself. I'm curious to see just where the Heavenherders founded Azania
> and all:)
Ugh, no. Maybe a worldmap (though I thought I heard Steve say it wasn't
likely).
> Intro fiction. I think Plus ca Change was a good story, because it
> involved most of the major archetypes and it wasn't very hard to figure
> out what Nameless and company were.
A /better/ story this time. (g)
> Define 'cyberpunk'. Very few people who will pick up this game *really*
> know what it means. And define by example. Not everyone necessarily
> connects written definitions with words when they use them. I, for one,
> tend to connect abstract concepts to them instead.
'Tis to laugh. Shadowrun isn't cyberpunk anymore; I'm not quite sure it
ever was. Not to mention that cyberpunk's been mostly co-opted...
> Tables. The copy of Aerotech I have from - whew! - too long ago (8th or
> 9th grade, anyway) had all the tables in two different places, on the
> back cover and right next to the fighter sheets. You could barely read
> them, but they were there.
I'd prefer grouping everything together in the back, forget about
duplicating it in the text - the range chart in the firearms section
always bothered me because it's not complete enough to rely on.
> Character Sheets. I don't know anyone who *wants* to fold their book
> cover flat to make copies of the character sheet, at least not when the
> book is that big. Could you make them perforated or something? Not
> necessarily removable, but perhaps more accessible. Especially for the
> hardcover (that I have *got* to get:)
Probably need to up it to three or four different character sheets,
alas.
> Computer Theory - What's it do?
I'd like to see the "Physical Sciences" skill fleshed out to three or
four different skills...
> Could we at least get basic rules for modifying vehicles in SR3? Things
> like adding on firmpoints and hardpoints, etc. (How *do* you disguise a
> hardpoint - mounted LMG on a Westwind?)
Steve did say it would include parts of Rigger's 2.0. Hopefully not
enough of it to make it obsolete... I'd like to think FASA knows enough
of marketing to realize that :)
-Matt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 02:56:07 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Fortune Tellers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
---Justin Pinnow wrote:
<snip>
> Now, I could just say that she is very expensive. That in itself
would
> limit access to her. I could even give her an eclectic schedule, so
> finding her when she is in isn't always easy. However, I don't want
to cop
> out and just have her charge money. Any ideas on what else she may
expect
> for payment besides nu yen?
I would keep with her eccentricy and the exotic feel. Don't have a set
fee for a reading, rather the one who approaches her must offer
something of his own accord. It would be understood among the circles
that she keeps that the offer must be a sacrifice to the person. If
they have not given something of themselves, the reading is not
personal to them. In other words, 50¥ may really hurt for a homeless
squatter to part with. However a hi-level V.P. with Yamtetsu probably
wouldn't squirm at coffing up 50,000¥ for a reading from your fortune
teller. Payments from clientelle like Mr. Johnson will probably come
more as favors, information, rare and unique gems and antiques,
quasi-mythological foci, and other imaginations.
This also leaves the runners area to squirm as they wonder what the
least they can get away with is, without insulting Madame Tarot
Reader. Meaning more fun for the GM. :o)
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:40:10 +0200
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Dion Scher <Dscher@****.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: MANA vs PHYSICAL spell
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>>The advantages of Mana spells is that the target resists with
willpower, which in most cases is low. If you're facing a troll toss
the mana spell at him, cuz the physical spell will probably bounce
off. FYI, a fun GM trick is to make a troll PA initiate with
shielding :)<<
Thanks for the reply, but I the responses are missing my question. I'm NOT asking whats
the advantage of a ManaMissile but what's the DISADVANTAGE of a MANAmissile. Why would I
bother, as a mage, to learn powermissile when I could learn ManaMissile. Statistically
speaking, I will have a better chance of combatting enemies with ManaMissile. So why
bother with PowerMissile?
I hope this clears up my question.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 06:48:44 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Andrew H <adh8@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: shotguns and silencers
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First of all, let's be clear on the basic design of silencers/sound
suppressors. Generally, it is a big fat cylinder that you attach to the end
of your closed chamber weapon [ie, revolvers can't be easily silenced] that
contains a number of baffles and absorbant muffles that trap and slow the
jet of gas that erupts from the muzzle. It is this gas which is pushing the
bullet, slug or mass of buckshot forward that possesses all the energy
which can be translated into a *bang*. By compartamentalizing and slowing
this gas, the noise of a gun can be muffled.
Now shotguns, being the ever popular and noisy urban fighting weapons that
they are, seem the prime target for silencing. Bottom line is: with solid
slug rounds, you can do the sound suppressor thing. You can't silence
buckshot because it spreads too much and doesn't maintain the seal needed
as the round travels through the supressor. Even if it did seal the
suppressor, the baffles would get torn up pretty quick, reducing the
suppressor's life rapidly.
The gout of flame and hot gas coming out of a shotgun's business end is
formidable. If you've ever seen a shotgun fired in darkness, you'd see that
the ball of flames is rather large. For this reason, I'd argue against
being able to fire the shotgun in burst or auto fire, just because the
supressor would not be able to handle that much stress at once.
Speaking of size, the size of a shotgun suppessor would be rather
formidable too. Think about a foot or so off the fat end of a softball bat
[maybe more] screwed onto the muzzle. Think no more concealability. It's a
hell of an intimidating sight though. Shotguns are pretty evil looking to
begin with; this should make chrome-boys scream.
Despite all this technical feasiblity, sound suppressed shotguns are
simply crazy. For practical application, the urban soldier should stick to
the silenced pistol or SMG. Shotguns are not subtle weapons, trying to
silence one goes against the whole premise of the weapon. It is simply an
act of monkeying with the rules, min-maxing, munchkin-ism or rules-abusing,
whatever you call it. I'm absolutely certain too, that the cops would come
down pretty hard on this brand of modification ["It's a sporting
modification, really officer!"]. If your PC's press you, let 'em do it, but
give them funny looks. Then give the opposition full-auto shotguns.
Andrew
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Huang '99 A&S Biology
adh8@*******.edu
"If you want to force your visitors to go out to lunch while your page
loads, fill it full of 8-bit dithered GIFS in the foreground, and don't
forget an enormous high-quality JPEG in the background."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:51:28 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
In-Reply-To: <19970706092908.14875.rocketmail@*****.rocketmail.com>
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Loki said on 2:29/ 6 Jul 97...
> Anyways, how does such a rule apply to spell casting since a skill
> isn't directly involved in the roll? Is it 1's equal to or greater
> than the force of the spell means an oops? This means force 1 spells
> are rather touchy. Is it equal to or greater than Sorcery? This means
> someone with a Sorcery skill of 6 that's rolling five dice or less
> from spell force and pool can never screw it up.
>
> We finally ruled that 1's equal to or greater than Sorcery -OR- all
> dice coming up 1's, whichever is lower, means the spell caster flubbed
> it.
That sounds like a good enough compromise. If you were to base it on the
spell's Force, then even the world's greatest spellcasters would have a
major chance of a fumble when casting low-Force spells, while avoiding
fumbles should be based on skill -- someone who doesn't know what he or
she is doing has a much greater chance of messing up big-time than someone
who's done the same thing a million times before.
OTOH this does mean that if you cast a spell with less dice than your
skill level you never ever mess up. Since spellcasting is supposed to be
more of an art than a science, that doesn't feel right either. In short,
I'd base it on the Sorcery skill, but let all ones take precedence, like
you suggest.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:19:52 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: SR3 & Valid Topics
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Matb once dared to write,
>On a completely non-related issue -- First Ed was Big Blue; Second Ed
>was Big Black -- what color will Third Ed be? (Big Brown?)
Now that would be ugly. Black has the best impact for the cover.
>I could possibly see a boxed set with one basic rules booklet and one
>equipment booklet (as well as magic booklet and matrix booklet) <==
>crappy idea. Scrap it.
Thank you.
>I *would* like to see better descriptions of the Basic Tech (especially
>Wired Reflexes!) offered, something along the lines of the Shadowtech
>descriptions. Revise the Body Index rules, and perhaps inject some
>crossover items (Bone Lacing, in my mind, should have both a BI rating
>and cost Essence).
Not that much of a description. Don't forget that Cybertechnology
does pick up some of the slack.
>On a nearly-related thread, one way to end the problem of characters
>starting out with the magnatech items is simply not to have any items in
>the Basic Bxxx with an Availability over 6....
I have problems with that fast rule. I can't agree with it. Maybe
some other way perhaps.
>I'd drop the optional metatypes altogether, revamp the Flaws so as to
>eliminate the hosers (Lightning Reflexes, Magic Invulnerability...)
Since those are options from the Companion, that's where they should
stay. This is about the CORE RULES, not what to do to the entire system
or how to make the book over a thousand pages. Please let's keep ideas
relavant to what's in the main rule book already and anything else that
HAS to be in there. If it's in another book, then you should ask yourself
if there is something wrong with an existing rule where it is at.
Optional and additional rules are fine where they are at. Anything that
need to cover or CORRECT the main book should be there. Rules for
handling Stealth and the expanded Threat ratings are two examples of what
should be in the book. Metavarients and Edges & Flaws are fine where they
are at.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:43:51 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: [SR3] Magical Magic
OK, I'm getting some good feedback. Here's Survey Question #3...
One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more of a
mystical/magical feel to it than it does now." I'm curious about the idea,
since I don't quite understand it. Since SR magic is currently (IMHO) based
on about 80% real-world magic theory and 20% fantasy magic (fireballs and
such) it feels pretty "mystical" to me. I'd like some feedback on the issue.
Is SR magic "magical" enough? If not, how could it be better?
The one caveat I will have to put in is please, please don't tell me "the
magic system should be more like Ars Magica, or Mage, or Earthdawn..." or any
other role-playing game. The basic concepts of SR magic aren't going to
change, but we might be able to fix some of the "feel" of it.
Steve K.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:00:45 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@*IBK.AC.AT>
Organization: University of Innsbruck, Austria
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells -- Level 6?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970704124452.006cb228@****.lis.ab.ca>
> This is my biggest pet peeve, and I'm in the middle of writing an article
> about it for TSS. Characters will 4 or 5 skills/spells at 6, and nothing
> lower.
the reason for combat spells exclusively at level 6 is obvious...
since their level is the target number for defending against them...
So there is absolutely nothing that could be done about it...
wait..
Maybe setting the maximum rating for attributes, spells and skills
to level 5 instead of 6... But I guess that would be too complicated,
and a too radical change...
> I know that everyone wants to make a character that is going to
> survive a few encounters, and I can respect that. However, some people
> have the attitude that 'If its not useful in extremely obvious ways, its
> useless'. The street sammy with Firearms, Street Eti, Stealth, and Armed
> Combat, all at 6, and nothing else. Is he so good at all of that, and so
> bad at everything else that it doesn't rate?
> -Aj
Hmm.. I see no reason to have skills only at level 6 since they don't
influence a target number... Sure, you'll save a bit karma if you
start with level 6 skills and learn the ones at lower level later,
but I always thought I was the only one who had noticed...
ss
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:03:31 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: MANA vs PHYSICAL spell
In-Reply-To: <199707071032.EAA25316@******> from "Dion Scher" at Jul 4,
97 08:40:10 am
Content-Type: text
Dion Scher wrote:
|
| >>The advantages of Mana spells is that the target resists with
| willpower, which in most cases is low. If you're facing a troll toss
| the mana spell at him, cuz the physical spell will probably bounce
| off. FYI, a fun GM trick is to make a troll PA initiate with
| shielding :)<<
|
| Thanks for the reply, but I the responses are missing my question.
I'm NOT asking whats the advantage of a ManaMissile but what's the
DISADVANTAGE of a MANAmissile. Why would I bother, as a mage, to
learn powermissile when I could learn ManaMissile. Stati| stically
speaking, I will have a better chance of combatting enemies with
ManaMissile. So why bother with PowerMissile? |
Oh. Well, the only reason I can think of to take a Power type combat
spell is for those magician targets (they generally have a lower Body
than Willpower). It depends on how many magicians your GM is going
to throw at you (and you never know untill its too late :). However,
later on in the campaign when your target is an initiate magician
with Shielding then it really doesn't make much difference whether
you cast ManaMissile or PowerMissile.
So, the best thing for a Magician to do is learn ManaMissile and
carry an Ares Predator :)
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink! - The sound of a crescent roll being stolen.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:08:48 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Skill Limits
In-Reply-To: <199707070723.BAA24191@******> from "Matb" at Jul 6,
97 03:23:26 am
Content-Type: text
Matb wrote:
|
| > Try this. Starting characters may have 1 skill at 6, 2 at 5, 4 at 4, 6 at
| > 3, and so on. If multiples of 2 don't work use multiples of 3
| > (1,3,6,9,12,15). Or you could use powers of 2 (1,2,4,8,16,32) or 3
| > (1,3,9,27..), whatever works best for your campaign.
|
| Sounds a little like Vampire... do you have similar pyramids for the
| different priority levels?
Nope. The priorities are fine the way they are.
| I fully admit the slanted-skill characters are definitely a problem, I'm
| just not sure this is the solution :)
Just an idea :) Another one that's come up before is to just flat
out not allow skill levels higher than 4 (or whatever number you
want). Did anyone ever try this to see how it worked?
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink! - The sound of a crescent roll being stolen.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:24 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Tables (was Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!)
In-Reply-To: <33BF765B.5F81@**.netcom.com>
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Matb said on 3:41/ 6 Jul 97...
> > Tables.
>
> I'd prefer grouping everything together in the back, forget about
> duplicating it in the text - the range chart in the firearms section
> always bothered me because it's not complete enough to rely on.
Having the tables in the text makes them much easier to refer to while
reading a rule than when they're only in the back of the book. Doing it
like VR 2.0 did and putting the important tables in the back as well as in
the main text would be best for any rulebook, IMHO.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:25 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties
In-Reply-To: <199707070411.AAA01316@*********.mindspring.com>
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MC23 said on 0:10/ 7 Jul 97...
> What do you think Strain is? If you like, you can consider Thread
> Weaving a centering skill. Now if you follow the guideline that practiced
> continual shared belief shapes magic then to get the adepts you speak of
> would take a tightly focused dedication followed over generations to
> achieve. We have no worries of this coming to pass in the Shadowrun time
> line we play in.
But perhaps we can say to our grandchildren "I can remember when the only
magic you could use in SR was raw magic... What edition is out now anyway?
57th, 'Pink Book With Blue Spots And Yellow Stars'? Oh my, the game's come
a long way, hasn't it...?" :)
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:24 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: MANA vs PHYSICAL spell
In-Reply-To: <s3bcb6fd.042@****.co.za>
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Dion Scher said on 8:40/ 4 Jul 97...
> Thanks for the reply, but I the responses are missing my question. I'm
> NOT asking whats the advantage of a ManaMissile but what's the
> DISADVANTAGE of a MANAmissile. Why would I bother, as a mage, to >
First, press enter at the end of each line, that stops your posts from
showing up as one long line of text. Anyway, to answer the question: power
missile has the advantage of being able to hit inanimate targets. Since
most people will have a Body equally high or higher than their Willpower,
with the exception of many (human, dwarven, elven) magicians, power
missile isn't very useful against them, but if you have to break down a
door, casting mana missile even at force 50 won't help in any way
whatsoever.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:24 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: shotguns and silencers
In-Reply-To: <009B6DD7.89599F60.54@******.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PR said on 20:56/ 6 Jul 97...
> had a bit of a problem in my last gaming session. a player bought a
> mossberg CMDT and equipped it with a Imp. gasvent IV. i disagreed with this
> player, with the thought that niether silencers nor gasvents which are placed
> on the ends of the barrels, could withstand the force of the exiting round of
> a shotgun. however, i cannot find the ruling in the books to back my airy
> statement. any help would be appreciated.
SR doesn't differentiate between weapons, and I find it unlikely a muzzle
brake (gas vent in SR terms) _wouldn't_ work on a shotgun. They work fine
on weapons ranging from pistols to artillery pieces, so why not on a 12
gauge shotgun? The only problem there is with gas venting a shotgun (IRL)
is that shot will likely be caught in the gas vent.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:24 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties
In-Reply-To: <009B6DC4.5F10B620.26@******.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PR said on 18:39/ 6 Jul 97...
> actually, i _think_ only the elves of tir na nog, which is either the physical
> location of the bloodwood
I didn't know Ireland was in the Ukrain... :)
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:25 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Barrier Rating Rules part 1
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In the following posts is the Barrier Rating interpretations text, minus
the Source part of the tables (listing which books the various attacks
types come from), because they won't fit on the line :(
------------------
THE ULTIMATE (?) SHADOWRUN BARRIER RULES INTERPRETATION<
by Damion Milliken <milko@*ow.edu.au> and Gurth <gurth@******.nl>, with
some input from Vince Pellerin
Throughout these rules, unless otherwise stated, roundings are to be made
down, and performed after all calculations have been completed. Thus, 9 -
5.5 + 2 would equal 5.5, rounding down to 5, NOT 9 - 5 + 2 = 6, rounding
down the 5.5.
BARRIER RATINGS
---------------
These rules replace the Barrier Rating rules found on page 98 of SRII. They
are actually extrapolated house rules that are based upon many hours of
research through, and deliberation on, the SRII rules.
There are two Effective Barrier Ratings. The first, the Damage Barrier
Rating is for damaging the barrier (AKA "Break Through"). The Penetration
Barrier Rating is used for penetrating the barrier (AKA "Firing Through").
Both of these Effective Barrier Ratings can be calculated from the base
Barrier Rating, and the type of attack, as per the table below.
AMMUNITION/ATTACK DAMAGE BARRIER PENETRATION BARRIER
RATING RATING
APDS ammo Barrier Rating x 3 (1) Barrier Rating / 2
Armor-Piercing Anti-
Vehicle Weapons Barrier Rating x 3 (1) Barrier Rating / 2
Blasts Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Blunt melee weapons Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Cannon rounds (2) Barrier Rating / 2 Barrier Rating x 2
Combat spells Barrier Rating x 2 -- (3)
Damaging Manipulation
spells Barrier Rating Barrier Rating
Explosive ammo Barrier Rating / 2 Barrier Rating x 2
Flechette ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating x 2
Gel (Stun) ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Needle ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating (4)
Regular ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Sharp melee weapons Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating x 2
Shot shotgun rounds Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating x 2
NET.SOURCEBOOKS
#000 Triplex ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating x 2
Acid ammo Barrier Rating (5) Barrier Rating x 2
AP Flechette ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
APFSDS shotgun ammo Barrier Rating x 3 Barrier Rating / 2
API ammo Barrier Rating x 3 Barrier Rating / 2
Armor Piercing ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating - 2
Depleted Uranium ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Dual Purpose ammo Barrier Rating Barrier Rating
Duplex ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
EHI cannon ammo Barrier Rating Barrier Rating
Firepower ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Frag. Flechette ammo Barrier Rating Barrier Rating x 2
Flare shotgun ammo Barrier Rating x 2 --
Flash shotgun ammo Barrier Rating x 2 --
Gas shotgun ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Glaser ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating x 4
HE shotgun ammo Barrier Rating / 2 Barrier Rating x 2
HEAP ammo Barrier Rating / 2 Barrier Rating
HEAT shotgun ammo Barrier Rating / 2 Barrier Rating
HEP ammo Barrier Rating / 2 Barrier Rating x 2
HESH ammo Barrier Rating Barrier Rating x 2
Hollow Point ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating + 2
Incendiary ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating + 2
LAPHE ammo Barrier Rating x 1.5 Barrier Rating
Multi-flechette ammo Barrier Rating x 3 Barrier Rating / 2 (6)
Ramjet ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Rubber Bullets Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Safety Rounds Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating (6)
Silver ammo Barrier Rating x 3 Barrier Rating x 2
Smoke shotgun ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Stinger shotgun ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Stundart ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Teflon coating Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Tungsten ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
NOTES
(1) This is a house rule to make APDS and armor-piercing weapons (such as
many anti-vehicle weapons) less damaging to barriers, due to their higher
armor piercing ability than regular rounds and weapons. The SRII rule is to
use the Barrier Rating x 2.
(2) SRII does not specifically say so, but these are treated here as
explosive rounds.
(3) Combat spells cannot hit someone on the other side of a barrier they
are attacking, unless they are an area of affect physical combat spell.
(4) Will not penetrate an unmodified Barrier Rating of 3 or higher.
(5) If the Power Level exceeds twice the Damage Barrier Rating, the
Barrier Rating goes down by 1 in addition to any normal reductions.
(6) Will not penetrate an unmodified Barrier Rating of 4 or higher.
The Damage Barrier Rating is calculated and then compared to the Power
Level of the attack. There are three possibilities, per the Barrier Effects
Table on page 98, SRII:
a) the Power Level is smaller than one-half the Damage Barrier Rating. In
this nothing happens except for some chips and scratches to the
barrier.
b) the Power Level is less than, or equal to, the Damage Barrier Rating.
The Barrier Rating (not the Damage Barrier Rating) is reduced by 1.
c) the Power Level is larger than the Damage Barrier Rating. Subtract the
Damage Barrier Rating from the Power Level, multiply by 2, divide by the
Barrier Rating, and round up. Reduce the Barrier Rating by this number,
and a hole is made, with a width in meters equal to one-half this number
(do not round).
Any spells that have particular effects are to be used as per their
individual descriptions, with the Barrier Rating referred to in the
description being equal to the actual Barrier Rating of the barrier, not
the Damage Barrier Rating as calculated above.
Example A1: Carmen aims her Ares Predator at BlackFire, who's behind an
armored glass wall (Barrier Rating 4). The Predator does 9M damage, and
Carmen has loaded it with regular rounds. From the table, the Damage
Barrier Rating against regular ammo is equal to the Barrier Rating x 2,
which makes it 8 in this case. The Power Level of 9 exceeds this, so the
Barrier Rating is reduced by 1 (to 3) and a 50 cm diameter hole is made in
the glass.
Example B1: Edward comes under fire from a security guard and ducks behind
a concrete wall. The wall has a Barrier Rating of 20, and the guard is
firing explosive ammo from his AK-97 assault rifle. The Damage Barrier
Rating is halved against explosive rounds, making it 10. The weapon's Power
Level is 9, which is less than the Damage Barrier Rating, but more than
one-half the Damage Barrier Rating, so the Barrier Rating is reduced by 1.
Example C1: Cindy casts a Force 6 Power Bolt spell at a locked door, which
has a Barrier Rating of 3. This is doubled to 6 for combat spells like
Power Bolt, making that the Power Level of the spell (i.e. its Force) is
equal to the Damage Barrier Rating: the spell reduces the Barrier Rating of
the door by 1, to 2.
Example D1: Foobar takes his Panther Assault Cannon and fires it at an
interior wall in an office. Notoriously flimsy, this has a Barrier Rating
of 2. Against assault cannon rounds, the Damage Barrier Rating is equal to
the Barrier Rating / 2, in this case making it 1. The Power Level of 18 is
surely more than the Damage Barrier Rating, which means it opens a hole in
the wall. The hole's size is .5 meters for every increment equal to half
the base Barrier Rating that the Damage Barrier Rating is exceeded; the
difference between the Power Level and one-half the Barrier Rating is 18 -
(2/2) = 18 - 1 = 17. 17 x .5 meters = 8.5 meters, so a hole with a
diameter of 8.5 meters is blown in the wall, and the Barrier Rating is also
reduced by 17. Since that would make it -15, the Barrier Rating drops to 0.
For burst attacks containing more than a single round, there are three
alternative methods of calculating the damage to the barrier, with method a
being recommended:
a) Simple, Shadowrun method: the Power Level of the attack, modified for
the burst, is compared to the Damage Barrier Rating to determine the loss
of Barrier Rating. The comparison is only made once.
b) Simple, SRII Errata method: compare the Power Level of the attack,
without modifying it for the burst, to the Damage Barrier Rating to
determine the loss of Barrier Rating. The comparison is only made once.
c) More realistic, but time consuming method: the calculation is performed
for each round in a burst, with reductions in the Barrier Rating of the
barrier being taken into account between each bullet.
PENETRATING THE BARRIER
If the attack was actually aimed at a target on the other side of the
barrier, then the Penetration Barrier Rating comes into play (in such a
case, this calculation is probably better off being carried out first). It
should be noted that both these effects are occurring simultaneously, and
that reductions to the Barrier Rating caused by the passage of a round do
not affect the Barrier Rating used to calculate the Penetration Barrier
Rating.
The Penetration Barrier Rating is subtracted from the Power Level of the
attack to determine the Effective Power Level of the attack. If the
Effective Power Level is zero or negative, then the round is stopped cold,
else targets on the other side of the barrier must resist an attack with a
Power Level equal to the Effective Power Level.
Example A2: Carmen's shot may now penetrate the armored glass. The
Penetration Barrier Rating against regular ammo is 4 (equal to the base
Barrier Rating), which is subtracted from the Power Level of the round. The
9M round is thereby reduced to 5M when it hits BlackFire. Keep in mind that
the reduction in Barrier Rating, that also resulted from the same shot,
doesn't apply just yet. If Carmen fires through the glass again, _that_
shot will face the reduced Barrier Rating of 3, however.
Example B2: With the explosive round from the guard's AK-97, the
Penetration Barrier Rating is equal to the Barrier Rating x 2, which makes
it 40 in this case. The Power Level is only 9, stopping the round dead in
the wall. Conclusion: explosive ammo is great for breaking down barriers,
but not for firing at targets on the other side.
Example C2: Cindy was casting a non-area of affect Combat spell, which
cannot hit anyone out of sight of the magician. Even if there is someone
on the other side of the door, he or she won't be hit.
Example D2: Like Cindy, Foobar aimed his cannon at the barrier, not at
someone behind it. However, for the sake of argument let's assume some
office worker happened to stand in direct line with Foobar's shot. The
Barrier Rating is doubled to find the Penetration Barrier Rating against
assault cannon rounds, so it becomes 4. The poor wageslave still faces 14D
damage from the cannon...
Resolving the affects of burst attacks on targets on the other side of
barriers will depend upon the method used above to determine the damage to
the barrier:
a) Simple, Shadowrun method: the Effective Power Level is merely equal to
the Power Level, modified for the burst, minus the Penetration Barrier
Rating.
b) Simple, SRII Errata method: the Effective Power Level is merely equal to
the Power Level, without modifying it for the burst, minus the Penetration
Barrier Rating. Burst modifiers are applied after calculation of the
Effective Power Level and determination of actualy penetration
c) More realistic, but time consuming method: when firing a burst at a
target on the other side of a barrier, it is possible that each round in
the burst will have a different Power Level after penetrating the barrier:
For example, an SMG (7M) firing at a target on the other side of a Barrier
Rating 7 barrier, using regular ammo:
Round 1: Stopped cold
Round 2: 1M
Round 3: 2M
Round 4: 3M
Round 5: 4M
Round 6: 5M
Round 7: 7M
Round 8: 7M
Round 9: 7M
For the purposes of calculating the final damage code, there are three
different options, the first being the recommended one:
1) Average the Power Levels of the penetrating rounds (rounding down) and
then apply the burst modifier to this. In the above example, the average
Power Level is (1+2+3+4+5+7+7+7)/8 = 4, and 8 rounds hit the target. Thus
the final damage code is 12D.
2) Take the highest Power Level and then apply the burst modifier to this.
In the above example, the highest Power Level is 7, and 8 rounds hit the
target. Thus the final damage code is 15D.
3) Take the lowest penetrating Power Level and then apply the burst
modifier to this. In the above example, the lowest Power Level is 1, and 8
rounds hit the target. Thus the final damage code is 9D.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:25 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gurth@******.nl>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
In-Reply-To: <yam7127.1851.136869856@****.amigaworld.com>
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Barbie said on 9:08/ 7 Jul 97...
> At 05-Jul-97 wrote Gurth:
>
> >Anyway, seeing that Cybertechnology gives a 50x multiplier to the costs,
> >that still makes drastic invasive alpha grade surgery cost 12.5 million,
> >and puts it out of the reach of just about everyone.
>
> Hmmm.........12.5million?
> I can`t follow you here.
> My calculations lead me to 45.500 for standard
> 2.275mega and 9.1mega for alpha/delta hospitalizion costs.
> And thats for the worst case of no body successes.
Sorry, but what on earth are you talking about? Drastic invasive surgery
costs 250,000 nuyen for the surgery itself (Medical Costs Table,
Cybertechnology page 53). Alpha- and beta-grade cyberware multiply that by
50, so it becomes 12,500,000 nuyen for the surgery. I didn't mention
recovery costs at all, but figuring those in (hospitalization with no Body
successes at all, so the recovery time is 61 days), I get the following
costs:
Surgery + Recovery = Total
Standard 250,000 30,500 280,500
Alpha 12,500,000 1,525,000 14,025,000
Beta 12,500,000 1,525,000 14,025,000
Delta 50,000,000 6,100,000 56,100,000
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:25 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Barrier rules
In-Reply-To: <19970706221943.7083.rocketmail@*****.rocketmail.com>
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Loki said on 15:19/ 6 Jul 97...
> I don't know if anyone has mentioned this for S/R III, but I'd
> personally like some retouching on the barrier rules.
As I've mentioned before, Damion Milliken and I worked up what we feel is
a good, workable interpretation of the barrier rules; I wanted to post it
here but I ran into some problems (Pegasus reformats line breaks so the
tables get messed up, and it's too long for a single message :/ ) which
means I'll have to mess round a bit until it fits.
I'll also send it to Paolo for inclusion in the SR archive.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:12:27 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: [OT] Manana
In-Reply-To: <199707070704.BAA24126@******> from "Loki" at Jul 7,
97 00:03:13 am
Content-Type: text
Loki wrote:
|
| I remember the time a shaman in my original group oops'd when casting
| Mana Missle at a security guard. I informed him he stammered in
| casting the spell and it came out <spanish> Manana </spanish>
| Missle...but not to worry since the spell would hit him tomorrow. :o)
... ow.
:)
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink! - The sound of a crescent roll being stolen.
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:16:39 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@*IBK.AC.AT>
Organization: University of Innsbruck, Austria
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells -- Level 6?
In-Reply-To: <4201.199707042121@******.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>
Spike said:
> I don't blame you. My personal rule on buying spells is 4 or 5 for a few
> combat spells, 1 for health spells, and 2 or 3 for various others.
>
> The only spells I'd go the full six on are threshold spells, like control
> thoughts or control actions....
>
> I like having a lot of different spells, as opposed to being BAMBAM.....
Then you are one of the rare exceptions. The character you describe
would be considerably less powerful than one with spells at level 6.
if you don't mind, fine. But most players do.
ss
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:24 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Barrier Rating Rules part 2
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VEHICLE ARMOR
-------------
Determine the damage to the vehicle, by first using the penetrating rules
(Penetration Barrier Rating) to see if the attack penetrates the vehicle's
armor. For this, we use the following table.
AMMUNITION/ATTACK EFFECTIVE VEHICLE ARMOR RATING SOURCE
APDS ammo Vehicle Armor Rating / 2 SRII + house rule
Armor-Piercing Anti-
Vehicle Weapons Vehicle Armor Rating / 2 SRII + house rule
Blasts Vehicle Armor Rating SRII
Blunt melee weapons Vehicle Armor Rating SRII
Cannon rounds Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 SRII (1)
Combat spells -- (2) SRII
Damaging Manipulation
spells Vehicle Armor Rating SRII
Explosive ammo Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 SRII
Flechette ammo Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 SRII
Gel (Stun) ammo Vehicle Armor Rating SRII
Needle ammo Vehicle Armor Rating (3) NAGRL
Regular ammo Vehicle Armor Rating SRII
Sharp melee weapons Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 SRII
Shot shotgun rounds Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 SRII
NET.SOURCEBOOKS
#000 Triplex ammo Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 Chromebook 2
Acid ammo Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 Chromebook 1
AP Flechette ammo Vehicle Armor Rating NERPS:ShadowLore
APFSDS shotgun ammo Vehicle Armor Rating / 2 BSW 2058
API ammo Vehicle Armor Rating / 2 Chromebook 1 & 2
Armor Piercing ammo Vehicle Armor Rating - 2 NERPS:ShadowLore
Depleted Uranium ammo Vehicle Armor Rating NERPS:ShadowLore
Dual Purpose ammo Vehicle Armor Rating Chromebook 2
Duplex ammo Vehicle Armor Rating Running Gear
EHI cannon ammo Vehicle Armor Rating Chromebook 2
Firepower ammo Vehicle Armor Rating SSC/Running Gear
Frag. Flechette ammo Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 Chromebook 2
Flare shotgun ammo -- Chromebook 2
Flash shotgun ammo -- Chromebook 2
Gas shotgun ammo Vehicle Armor Rating Chromebook 2
Glaser ammo Vehicle Armor Rating x 4 Running Gear
HE shotgun ammo Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 BSW 2058
HEAP ammo Vehicle Armor Rating NERPS:ShadowLore
HEAT shotgun ammo Vehicle Armor Rating BSW 2058
HEP ammo Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 Chromebook 1
HESH ammo Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 SWO Guns
Hollow Point ammo Vehicle Armor Rating + 2 NERPS:ShadowLore
Incendiary ammo Vehicle Armor Rating + 2 NERPS:Shadowlore
LAPHE ammo Vehicle Armor Rating Chromebook 2
Multi-flechette ammo Vehicle Armor Rating / 2 (4) Chromebook 1
Ramjet ammo Vehicle Armor Rating Chromebook 2
Rubber Bullets Vehicle Armor Rating Chromebook 2
Safety Rounds Vehicle Armor Rating (4) BSW 2058
Silver ammo Vehicle Armor Rating x 2 NERPS:ShadowLore
Smoke shotgun ammo Vehicle Armor Rating Chromebook 2
Stinger shotgun ammo Vehicle Armor Rating Chromebook 2
Stundart ammo Vehicle Armor Rating Chromebook 1
Teflon coating Vehicle Armor Rating NERPS:ShadowLore
Tungsten ammo Vehicle Armor Rating NERPS:ShadowLore
NOTES
(1) SRII does not specifically say so, but these are treated here as
explosive rounds.
(2) Combat spells resolve their affects on vehicles per the rules on page
109 of SRII.
(3) Will not penetrate an unmodified Vehicle Armor Rating of 3 or higher.
(4) Will not penetrate an unmodified Vehicle Armor Rating of 4 or higher.
Example D3: Foobar is outside the office, and turns his Panther against a
Chrysler-Nissan Patrol-One that is bringing in some reinforcements to stop
him. The Patrol-One has an Armor rating of 6, which is doubled against the
assault cannon, to make it 12. The Power Level of the cannon is 18, so it
can penetrate the armor.
The vehicle must resist an attack with an Effective Power Level = Power
Level - Effective Vehicle Armor Rating. If the Effective Power Level is
zero or less then the attack fails to penetrate the vehicle armor. If the
Effective Power Level is positive, then the vehicle must resist the damage.
However, the vehicle gets its Body Attribute as composite armor, and so may
subtract its Body Attribute from the Effective Power Level of the attack
(minimum of 2, as per normal Shadowrun armor rules). However, if the attack
is from an armor-piercing weapon or APDS ammunition, then the vehicle may
only subtract it's Body/2 at this stage.
The Damage Level of the attack is one less than the originating Damage
Level, except in the case of anti-vehicle weapons. For these weapons, the
Damage Level is not reduced.
The vehicle rolls (as always) Body+(Armor/2) to resist the damage.
Example D4: Foobar hits the Patrol-One. The vehicle has to resist 3S damage
from the shot: the Power Level is reduced by the Effective Vehicle Armor
Rating, from 18 to 6, and then another 3 points are subtracted because the
car's Body is 3; because the Panther cannon isn't a specific anti-vehicle
weapon its Damage Level is reduced by one category, from D to S. The
vehicle now gets its 3 Body dice and one-half its Armor dice to resist the
attack: a total of 6 dice against a target number 3.
Vehicle armor does not degrade or get reduced as per the Damage Barrier
Rating rules, however. It will suffer degradation by the armor degradation
rules outlined below.
There are also alternative, by the book, interpretations of the vehicle
armor rules:
By The Book interpretation of the Vehicle Armor rules 1: use the rules as
above but instead of using the armor degradation rules outlined below,
apply the barrier degradation rules to vehicle armor as well. This is
accomplished by using the Damage Barrier Rating rules exactly as they are
above, with the Vehicle Armor Rating in place of the Barrier Rating. A
question that must to be answered by each individual gamemaster is whether
or not holes will be opened up in the vehicle's armor, as per the Damage
Barrier Rating rules, or whether the armor will just be degraded, but no
holes produced. Either way this results in vehicle armor rapidly degrading
in the face of attacks.
Example D4a: the Damage Barrier Rating is equal to the Vehicle Armor Rating
/ 2 against cannon rounds, so that becomes 3 (6 / 2). The Power Level of
the Panther cannon exceeds the Damage Barrier Rating, so the Vehicle Armor
Rating gets reduced. The reduction is 4: one-half the Vehicle Armor Rating
is 3, which fits four times into the difference between Power Level and
Barrier Rating. The Vehicle Armor Rating after the shot is 6 - 4 = 2.
Depending on whether the gamemaster rules that holes are opened in the
armor or not, a 2-meter hole could now be in the Patrol-One's side.
By The Book interpretation of the Vehicle Armor rules 2: for vehicle armor,
do not use either Damage Barrier Rating or Penetration Barrier Rating, but
simply subtract the Vehicle Armor Rating from the Power Level of the
attack. If the attack is from an armor-Piercing weapon or ammunition, then
subtract half the Vehicle Armor Rating (round down) from the Power Level of
the attack. If the Effective Power Level is then zero or negative, the
round bounces off the armor. If the Effective Power Level is greater than
zero, then the vehicle resists the damage (at the appropriately reduced
Damage Level), using its Body attribute as composite Ballistic and Impact
armor. APDS and armor-piercing weapons halve (round down) the Body
attribute of the vehicle for the purposes of this calculation. (The minimum
target number is 2.) The Damage Level of the attack is one less than the
original Damage Level, except in the case of anti-vehicle weapons. For
these weapons, the Damage Level is not reduced. This is simple and easy,
but not entirely satisfying.
Example D4b: The Panther cannon's Power Level is 18, minus the Vehicle
Armor Rating and Body, which results in an Effective Power Level of 18 - 6
- 3 = 9. The vehicle has to resist 9S damage.
CRITTER HARDENED ARMOR
----------------------
Treat it exactly the same as vehicle armor, i.e. using the Penetration
Barrier Rating rules. The critters Body is to be treated the same as a
vehicle's Body, and hardened armor the same as vehicle armor, except that
critter hardened armor does not degrade at all. However, at the
gamemaster's option, critter hardened armor may degrade as per the armor
degradation rules explained below.
Example E1: Bob finds himself on a boat in the North Atlantic, hunting
leviathan for sport with some way too rich guy (he wonders why he's doing
this, too). The employer, as eccentric as is to be expected, has decided to
use normal hunting rifles, which do 9S damage; the leviathan has 2 points
of hardened armor and a Body of 11. APDS ammo is used, which can easily
penetrate the armor rating of 2, so the leviathan now has to resist a
damage of 2M: base Power Level 9 - (Armor Rating 2)/2 - one-half Body 5.5 =
Power Level of 2.5, rounding to 2; the Damage Level is reduced by one to M.
For this Damage Resistance Test, the critter gets 12 dice: its Body plus
one-half its Armor.
PERSONAL HARDENED ARMOR
-----------------------
Treat it exactly the same as critter hardened armor, except that the
Body attribute of the person inside does not count as composite armor
and reduce the Effective Power Level, and the Damage Level of the attack is
never reduced by one category. The personal hardened armor will be
penetrated as per the Penetration Barrier Rating rules, and will degrade as
per the rules below. This rule only applies to personal hardened armor, and
not to normal personal armor.
Example A3: BlackFire shoots back at Carmen, who wears a light military
armor (ratings 10/7). BlackFire is packing serious firepower, namely a 14S
sniper rifle firing regular rounds. The Effective Power Level is 14 - 10 =
4, and so the damage Carmen has to resist is 4S. In addition, some armor
degradation will occur (see below). At some later stage, Carmen has
acquired a new set of light military armor, and one of BlackFire's buddies
shoots 10 regular rounds from his HK227 (7M damage each) at Carmen. Using
method A for resolving burst attacks, the Power Level of a single round is
less than the Ballistic rating of Carmen's armor, so all rounds simply
bounce off without causing any damage to her at all. However, the attack
may damage the armor itself (see below).
GEL PACKS
In addition to the rules as above, each time the armor is penetrated
(i.e. each attack that the person inside must resist with their Body), both
the Ballistic and Impact armor ratings are reduced by 1. This reduction is
not applied on a bullet by bullet basis, rather it is applied per attack
(i.e. a single burst, no matter how large, will only reduce the ratings by
1, not by 1 per bullet, assuming that it penetrates at all, of course). The
gel pack armor will also degrade by the degradation rules outlined below.
Example A4: Carmen shoots back at BlackFire's chummer, this time using her
M22-A2 firing regular rounds on full auto. She fires 6 rounds and hits,
causing 14D damage. The target is wearing an armor jacket with gel packs
(5/3 armor), but, again using method A, Carmen's rifle has a base Power
Level of 8, so it penetrates and the guy has to resist the damage. The gel
packs' efficiency is automatically reduced by 1 point, regardless of any
other reductions that may result from the burst.
ARMOR DEGRADATION
-----------------
This rule replaces the armor degradation rules on page 75 of Fields of
Fire, and it applies equally to personal non-hardened armor, gel pack
armor, personal hardened armor, and vehicle armor. It may also, at the
gamemaster's discretion, apply to critter hardened armor, and maybe even to
regular critter armor.
Armor degradation uses the Damage Barrier Rating rules, but with the
following modifications:
* Light Damage Code Weapons, Effective Armor Rating = (Ballistic + Impact)
x 8 * Moderate Damage Code Weapons, Effective Armor Rating = (Ballistic +
Impact) x 4 * Serious Damage Code Weapons, Effective Armor Rating =
(Ballistic + Impact) x 2 * Deadly Damage Code Weapons, Effective Armor
Rating = (Ballistic + Impact)
The Effective Armor Rating is then used in the place of the Barrier Rating
in the Damage Barrier Rating rules. I.e. a /2 modifier for explosive
rounds, a x3 modifier for APDS, and the other modifiers would also apply.
Also, no holes are created in the armor as a result of armor degradation.
Additionally, only articles listed as armor in the sourcebooks abide by
these rules -- other impediments to attacks, like a steel plate worn in
front of a character's chest, use the standard barrier rules.
For vehicle armor and critter hardened armor, use the armor rating in
place of the (Ballistic + Impact) sum above. Alternatively, twice the
armor rating may be used to represent the greater robustness of hardened
armors, and takes into account that they really have Ballistic and Impact
ratings equal to their single rating.
Example A5: BlackFire's chummer (we won't bother giving him a name because
he's not going to survive this example anyway) had to resist 14D damage,
minus his Ballistic armor of 5. The base Damage Code of the weapon is 8M,
though, so for purposes of armor degradation his Effective Armor Rating is
(Ballistic + Impact) x 4, which is (5 + 3) x 4 = 8 x 4 = 32. This is then
doubled because Carmen fires regular ammo, to 64. No matter which way you
look at it, Carmen's attack is not powerful enough to cause armor
degradation.
Example D5: Foobar and his assault cannon aim at one of the sec guards
crawling out of the Patrol-One after Foobar pumped a few more rounds into
it. He fires, and hits. The guard is wearing a vest with plates (4/3 armor)
and because of Foobar's cannon rounds doing a base of Deadly damage, his
Effective Armor Rating is 4 + 3 = 7. This is then /halved/ to 3.5 because
it's an assault cannon round... The Armor rating is reduced by (18 - 7) /
3.5 = 11 / 3.5 = 4 points.
There are three alternatives to assigning the degraded armor points, with
the first being the recommended method.
1) Split it equally between both ratings, with any odd point going to the
armor rating used to resist the attack.
Example D6a: Of the 4 points, 2 are taken from the Ballistic rating and 2
from the Impact rating: the reduction is distributed evenly, though if
there was a point left over it would come from the Ballistic rating because
that is used to resist damage from assault cannons. The new Armor ratings
are Ballistic 2, Impact 1.
2) Apply the full reduction to both armor ratings.
Example D6b: Both Ballistic and Impact ratings are reduced by 4, giving the
armor a 0/0 rating.
3) Apply the full reduction to the rating used to resist the attack.
Example D6c: Ballistic is used to resist damage from the cannon, so it is
reduced by 4 points. The new armor ratings are 0/3.
In the case of vehicle armor, the Damage Level used is the same one which
the vehicle resists, not the original Damage Level of the weapon. I.e. all
weapons except anti-vehicle weapons have their Damage Level reduced by one.
BARRIER RATINGS
---------------
For those gamemasters who wish for an additional level of selection and
fine tuning for Barrier Ratings, the original SRI Barrier Ratings are
transportable directly into SRII. The SRI Barrier Ratings are outlined
below:
Material Barrier Rating
Thin Normal Thick Reinforced
Wood 0 1 2 4
Armor Glass 1 2 4 8
Plywood 1 3 6 12
Construction Plastic 2 4 8 16
Impact Plastic 2 5 10 20
Steel Sheet 3 6 12 24
Ballistic Composite 3 7 14 28
Concrete 4 8 16 32
The SRII Barrier Ratings are:
Material Rating
Standard Glass 2
Cheap Material/Regular Tires 3
Average Material/Ballistic Glass 4
Heavy Material 6
Reinforced/Armored Glass 8
Structural Material 12
Heavy Structural Material 16
armored/Reinforced Material 24
Hardened Material 32
If the two sets of Barrier Ratings are compared, it can be seen that they
are actually very similar. The SRI Barrier Ratings are more specific and
explicit in what they assign, but they only assign values for a limited
selection of materials. The SRII Barrier Ratings appear to have tried to
correct this with general ratings, at the expense of including thicknesses
for the materials. It is possible to use the SRI Barrier Ratings as a guide
for specific materials.
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:29:13 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@*IBK.AC.AT>
Organization: University of Innsbruck, Austria
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
In-Reply-To: <970707084349_1859766765@*******.mail.aol.com>
> The one caveat I will have to put in is please, please don't tell me "the
> magic system should be more like Ars Magica, or Mage, or Earthdawn..." or any
> other role-playing game. The basic concepts of SR magic aren't going to
> change, but we might be able to fix some of the "feel" of it.
>
> Steve K.
Well, I liked the semi-scientific view of magic in shadowrun very
much... and all of my players did as well. I would not change the
'feeling' of magic in the game... IMHO, it is very good as it is now.
Just fix the bugs in the magic-rules... everything will be perfect
then. ss
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:32:22 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Barrier Rating Rules part 1
In-Reply-To: <199707071314.HAA26582@******> from "Gurth" at Jul 7,
97 03:10:25 pm
Content-Type: text
Gurth wrote:
|
| THE ULTIMATE (?) SHADOWRUN BARRIER RULES INTERPRETATION<
|
| by Damion Milliken <milko@*ow.edu.au> and Gurth <gurth@******.nl>, with
| some input from Vince Pellerin
First, nice job!
| AMMUNITION/ATTACK DAMAGE BARRIER PENETRATION BARRIER
| RATING RATING
| Blasts Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Shouldn't there be two categories of Blasts, direct and indirect?
When I say direct I'm thinking of the demolitions expert placing a
shaped charge on the barrier itself, or a direct hit by a missile.
For indirect I'm refering to grenades and such going off in the
vicinity.
| Gel (Stun) ammo Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
| Rubber Bullets Barrier Rating x 2 Barrier Rating
Why isn't the Penetration Rating higher for these? I'd think that
gel and rubber rounds wouldn't have much of a chance penetrating any
barrier.
| a) the Power Level is smaller than one-half the Damage Barrier Rating. In
| this nothing happens except for some chips and scratches to the
| barrier.
Just a few gramatical criticisms. Try, "the Power Level is less than
one-half..."
| c) the Power Level is larger than the Damage Barrier Rating. Subtract the
| Damage Barrier Rating from the Power Level, multiply by 2, divide by the
"the Power Level is greater than the Damage..."
| Two words: therapy.
LOL
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink! - The sound of a crescent roll being stolen.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:47:23 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells -- Level 6?
In-Reply-To: <199707071320.HAA26679@******> from "Simon T. Sailer" at Jul
7,
97 03:16:39 pm
Content-Type: text
Simon T. Sailer wrote:
|
| Spike said:
|
| > I don't blame you. My personal rule on buying spells is 4 or 5 for a few
| > combat spells, 1 for health spells, and 2 or 3 for various others.
| >
| > The only spells I'd go the full six on are threshold spells, like control
| > thoughts or control actions....
| >
| > I like having a lot of different spells, as opposed to being BAMBAM.....
|
| Then you are one of the rare exceptions. The character you describe
| would be considerably less powerful than one with spells at level 6.
| if you don't mind, fine. But most players do.
It seems to be a carry over from AD$D (at least for us old farts :).
In AD$D every mage had Magic Missile, Fireball and Lightning Bolt.
And because everything was a dungeon crawl those where must have
spells. Even if your character had noncombat spells, he never
memorized them. They just took up space in his spellbook.
(Disclaimer: most AD$D campaigns, but not all.)
So you switch to Shadowrun and take ManaMissile and Fireball out of
habit, not realizing that the difference between AD$D and Shadowrun
is that Shadowrun is designed to be a Roleplaying game :) It takes a
little while to figure that out (in general).
And I blame GMs too for running combat intensive games (unless you
and your group like that, than more power to you). If you want to
fix the problem than force the issue at character creation with a
house rule, or run a campaign that requires a depth of skills.
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink! - The sound of a crescent roll being stolen.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:50:05 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
In-Reply-To: <199707071315.HAA26609@******> from "Gurth" at Jul 7,
97 03:10:25 pm
Content-Type: text
Gurth wrote:
|
| Surgery + Recovery = Total
| Standard 250,000 30,500 280,500
| Alpha 12,500,000 1,525,000 14,025,000
| Beta 12,500,000 1,525,000 14,025,000
| Delta 50,000,000 6,100,000 56,100,000
I don't have the rules handy, does it actually say that the recovery
costs are multiplied also? Cuz that doesn't make sense to me.
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink! - The sound of a crescent roll being stolen.
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:52:17 +1000
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From: Glenn Munro <eazy@*****.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
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At 10:46 PM 05/07/97 -0500, Steve K. wrote:
>OK, I'm getting some good feedback. Here's Survey Question #3...
>
>One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more of a
>mystical/magical feel to it than it does now." I'm curious about the idea,
>since I don't quite understand it. Since SR magic is currently (IMHO) based
>on about 80% real-world magic theory and 20% fantasy magic (fireballs and
>such) it feels pretty "mystical" to me. I'd like some feedback on the issue.
>Is SR magic "magical" enough? If not, how could it be better?
>
>The one caveat I will have to put in is please, please don't tell me "the
>magic system should be more like Ars Magica, or Mage, or Earthdawn..." or any
>other role-playing game. The basic concepts of SR magic aren't going to
>change, but we might be able to fix some of the "feel" of it.
>
Perhaps this is more a GM thing.
Dove: OK I cast fireball
GM: Fine. Boom. Roll Dice.
There's not much in the rules to get players to be more creative than this
either. For the Shaman there is but it seems glanced at. IIRC there are
mentions of chanting and dancing and the like. (Don't have BBB with me to
check and haven't played a mage either so please forgive any ignorance)
I think for many people the mystic part comes from arcane symbols, complex
gesturing, secret unpronoucable languages and rare ingredients. Also
there's the spell length...all spell are whipped off at the speed of
thought (or thereabouts). Sure there's ritual sorcery but nothing in
between. Some may argue that having variable length spells will make mages
even worse in combat but this is not the point. Why should all should
spells take the same amount of time to cast?
The mechanics of the magic system seem to dominate discussions in BBB as
well. This makes magic feel more scientific than mystical (esp with the
reference to scientific methodology being used by some mages).
again forgive any ignorance on my part. I think its been a year since
reading that section in BBB and have not played a mage (maybe its time I
did. It would annoy our token Munchkin esp if I outdid him without
reverting to powergaming :)
QuickFix
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:02:51 -0500
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From: William Monroe Ashe <wma6617@*NIX.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
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The Great Steve wrote:
OK, I'm getting some good feedback. Here's Survey Question #3...
One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more
of a mystical/magical feel to it than it does now."
******
I am inclined to agree with the more "scientific" viewpoint. Most people
would approach magic using the only framewoek they have, which is a
scientific/mathematical backgound. The shamans while using dancing,
chanting etc etc would still view the big picture in a scientific way.
i.e. "Well mana is this it obeys these 'rules' ... I access and control
the mana via my totem, the ritual ..."
What would be interesting would be a discussion to GM's on how to
make it more "magical". The SR rules are clear as they stand (with a few
notable exceptions). I think that it is up to the individual GM to
tailor magic to his game. A bunch of research mages would not want to
have a more "magical" world because it would seriously challenge their
world view. But, that might make one really fun game.
I hope I have made my (a) point
regards
Bill
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:54:25 -0500
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From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 08:43:51 -0400"
<970707084349_1859766765@*******.mail.aol.com>
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You wrote:
> OK, I'm getting some good feedback. Here's Survey Question #3...
> One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more of a
> mystical/magical feel to it than it does now." I'm curious about the idea,
> since I don't quite understand it. Since SR magic is currently (IMHO) based
> on about 80% real-world magic theory
Whoah, hold on here a second, partner. Real-world magic theory. Could you try
to go over that a little again? I might have missed something. ;)
and 20% fantasy magic (fireballs and
> such) it feels pretty "mystical" to me. I'd like some feedback on the
issue.
> Is SR magic "magical" enough? If not, how could it be better?
I think they mean the fact that magic gets reduced to stats and combat abilites
rather than being somthing mysterious and special. The problems being that
a) the players all know and understand the basics of magic in the SR world, and
b) the cyberpunk feel of the original world means that magic could be taken as
'just another way to do biz'. I don't think SR needs more of a mystical feel
overall, personally, I just think that playing a spellcaster could be
roleplayed a bit better, if people want *magicians* to seem more mystical.
But I can see the Burned-out Mage archetype talking about how magic is just 'A
slick, a come-on... a lie.' ('course, he got dropped from the 2nd ed rulebook:).
Magic is there, but much like Elves, everyone has to realize that they're not
the happy singing elves of myth, magic isn't some strange imponderable. Magic
has been assimilated into the world of 2050, and things just kept moving on.
> The one caveat I will have to put in is please, please don't tell me "the
> magic system should be more like Ars Magica, or Mage, or Earthdawn..." or any
> other role-playing game. The basic concepts of SR magic aren't going to
> change, but we might be able to fix some of the "feel" of it.
Nah, SR's magic system was the first 'organic' magic system I'd seen, and it
has its own consistent feel. It's comfy now. Don't you dare turn it into ED's
magic system or anything else.
thanks,
losthalo
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:24 +0100
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
In-Reply-To: <4957.199707061207@******.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>
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Spike said on 13:07/ 6 Jul 97...
> With edges, a phys ad could buy ALL his abilities AND get astral perception
> effectively free.....
I don't allow several edges in my game, and have adjusted the costs for
others. I'm not sure about the Magical Talent edges, so for the moment
I've disallowed them on the basis that they duplicate what actual
magicians do and can too much; High Pain Tolerance is another one: at 1
point per box, why would a physad want to spend .5 Magic Points per box on
what is essentially the same thing?
> I don't like the idea of edges. Too munchy.
Depends on the edge, IMHO. Some are just too easy to abuse, while others
make for interesting characters. The real trick is getting players to take
those instead of the easy bonuses :)
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:24 +0100
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
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Archie Burks said on 12:59/ 6 Jul 97...
> If you want to play SR, then play it. If you want to play ED, then play it.
> If and when they come out with the ties then you can euther play it or stick
> with the old stuff. Your choice. But me I like the idea of tieing the two
> together. It gives a sense of history , a true sense of an epic story.
It can do that, yeah. However, introducing Horrors into SR would most
likely mean the quick annihilation of most of the population of the world,
with the rest held in slavery by the Horrors -- SR's magic hasn't
developed far enough to combat them (thread magic, spell matrices, etc.)
and the tech is probably not quite advanced enough either to rely on that
alone (and in combination with SR magic you'd do better to just run away).
Aside from that, it would make no sense for Horrors to come through en
masse around 2060 -- it's about 2000 years too soon.
> Just wait until the "Hunter of dragons" shows up and then decides to get
> Wired Reflexes 3 nd mabye orthoskin then tries to hunt you down. then
> you'll be praying for the passions to teach you to tie threads .
One quesiton: WHY would good old Verji want wired reflexes? Looks to me
like he's powerful enough already...
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:12:51 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells -- Level 6?
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 15:16:39 +0100"
<E7D29E6040@********.uibk.ac.at>
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You wrote:
> > I don't blame you. My personal rule on buying spells is 4 or 5 for a few
> > combat spells, 1 for health spells, and 2 or 3 for various others.
> >
> > The only spells I'd go the full six on are threshold spells, like control
> > thoughts or control actions....
> >
> > I like having a lot of different spells, as opposed to being BAMBAM.....
> Then you are one of the rare exceptions. The character you describe
> would be considerably less powerful than one with spells at level 6.
> if you don't mind, fine. But most players do.
I usually prioritize my spells, a few at 5-6, and the rest at 4's or less, to
try to get enough variety. But we usually only have one magician in the party
and so I don't have any magical 'backup'. Usually one of the combat spells is
a 6, with an area-effect backup at 4, and one of the more utility spells is
also a 5-6, the rest at lower levels depending on what force I think I need for
the character. This is also what I've seen every other SR gamer I've played
with do, but I've had the luck of not playing with too many munchkins.
losthalo
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:22:52 EST
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From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Organization: Office of Physical Plant
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
In-Reply-To: <199707071309.PAA06036@**********.xs4all.nl>
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> > Just wait until the "Hunter of dragons" shows up and then decides to
get
> > Wired Reflexes 3 nd mabye orthoskin then tries to hunt you down. then
> > you'll be praying for the passions to teach you to tie threads .
>
> One quesiton: WHY would good old Verji want wired reflexes? Looks to
> me like he's powerful enough already...
Simple. Verji's a Munchie. Isn't it obvious?
-=SwiftOne=-
(I should know better than to post my Fixers bit after SR3....no one
will notice it. :( Also: SR3: The Big Red. Count on it.)
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:28:01 EST
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From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Organization: Office of Physical Plant
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
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> I'd like some feedback on the issue. Is SR magic "magical" enough?
> If not, how could it be better?
Differentiate the Shaman/Hermetic bit.
Hermetics study it all, and it works through rigidly applied
rules...so say that.
Shamans....they totally lack mysticism....it's like they are
delusional hermetics. Same effects, same rules, only a +2 to
translate between them, and they don't have to be so anal.
Also, all the bits about "How Magic Works" pretty much support the
hermetic side....it isn't magical, its scientific.
('Course those same bits are important to settle disputes, so.....I
don't enyc your job. Yes I do, I want it a lot :) I just don't envy
the complaints you'll get when it's done.
-=SwiftOne=-
Please sir, save the world!
And if it isn't too much of a bother, could you do it before Tea
Time?
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:29:25 EST
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From: VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PRONE <downsa@******.EDU>
Subject: Re: shotguns and silencers
everyone's been helpful in dealing with shotguns and silencers. however, my
players also had gasvents on various shotguns as well. any idea on the
applications and consequences of gasvents on the end of shotguns?
Aaron
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:40:44 +0100
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From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@*IBK.AC.AT>
Organization: University of Innsbruck, Austria
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells -- Level 6?
In-Reply-To: <01IKY9T40HEE9I4IK5@******.acs.muohio.edu>
> I usually prioritize my spells, a few at 5-6, and the rest at 4's or less, to
> try to get enough variety. But we usually only have one magician in the party
> and so I don't have any magical 'backup'. Usually one of the combat spells is
> a 6, with an area-effect backup at 4, and one of the more utility spells is
> also a 5-6, the rest at lower levels depending on what force I think I need for
> the character. This is also what I've seen every other SR gamer I've played
> with do, but I've had the luck of not playing with too many munchkins.
>
> losthalo
There is a bid difference between someone who uses the more effective
way and a munchkin.
Choose one spell less and increase the efficiency of 5 others by
100%. Thats not munchkinous, that's common sense.
(of course, this only counts for resisted spells... Not only combat
spells)
ss (who defends his players ;)
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:43:45 EST
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From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Organization: Office of Physical Plant
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells -- Level 6?
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> I usually prioritize my spells, a few at 5-6, and the rest at 4's or
> less, to try to get enough variety. But we usually only have one
> magician in the party and so I don't have any magical 'backup'.
> Usually one of the combat spells is a 6, with an area-effect backup
> at 4, and one of the more utility spells is also a 5-6, the rest at
> lower levels depending on what force I think I need for the
> character. This is also what I've seen every other SR gamer I've
> played with do, but I've had the luck of not playing with too many
> munchkins.
I border on Munchie with my spells....I usually have one At
6....Manabolt or StunBolt. Maybe two at 4....Compel Truth, Mind
Probe..
All the rest are 1's, and I take a LOT of them. My shamans aren't
combat oriented....and If I do get into combat, I'm more likely to
use Levitate Person, or Magic fingers.
the True power of the Magician lies not in a few high force spells,
but in the endless versatility they provide.
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:46:13 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@*IBK.AC.AT>
Organization: University of Innsbruck, Austria
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells -- Level 6?
In-Reply-To: <199707071347.HAA27291@******>
> And I blame GMs too for running combat intensive games (unless you
> and your group like that, than more power to you). If you want to
> fix the problem than force the issue at character creation with a
> house rule, or run a campaign that requires a depth of skills.
>
> -David
If your mage has no spells that can be resisted, than every level
from 1-6 is ok. If your mage has even one resisted spell, than it
would be a unnecessary loss of effectivity if he had him at any level
but 6.
Accuse me of munchkinism all you want, to me this is just common
sense.
ss
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:58:28 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
On Monday, July 07, 1997 08:43, Steve Kenson[SMTP:TalonMail@***.COM] wrote:
> OK, I'm getting some good feedback. Here's Survey Question #3...
>
> One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more
of a
> mystical/magical feel to it than it does now." I'm curious about the
idea,
> since I don't quite understand it. Since SR magic is currently (IMHO)
based
> on about 80% real-world magic theory and 20% fantasy magic (fireballs and
> such) it feels pretty "mystical" to me. I'd like some feedback on the
issue.
> Is SR magic "magical" enough? If not, how could it be better?
>
> The one caveat I will have to put in is please, please don't tell me "the
> magic system should be more like Ars Magica, or Mage, or Earthdawn..." or
any
> other role-playing game. The basic concepts of SR magic aren't going to
> change, but we might be able to fix some of the "feel" of it.
There's gonna be a big discussion on this too...
Anyway, how about more descriptions. I'd like to see about a column-length
(assuming the same font/size as SRII) description of what a novice mage
sees in astral space when he first projects (perhaps as the intro to the
Astral Space section...(actually, I'd almost rather see a bunch of
vignettes as introductions to the sections than one story a la Plus ca
Change. But that would shoot the page count up.)) Also, make astral space
more threatening. If the magically capable PCs are taking a (small) risk
every time they project, they might be a little less willing to do so at
every opportunity. Creatures such as the corpselight and nomad (PANA) might
be nice to see in the main rules. OTOH, they might make astral space a
little *too* dangerous.
I think that the Astral Terrain chapter from the Grimoire belongs in the
main book. Background count is a useful tool to rein in mages, and finding
out *why* an area has a background count is a nifty little maguffin. The
rest of the chapter has (some) descriptions of astral space, too.
Another thing: how long can a spell be sustained? The only place this
question is even referred to is in _Who hunts the Hunter_ when one of the
mages states that she can only maintain her (paralysis) spell for another
45 minutes after casting it. Not good.
--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:56:58 -0400
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From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Skill Limitations...
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I'm pretty much against lowering the Skill Limits presented at
character generation. I've been playing for QUITE awhile, and have had
no problem with the rules as laid out. It's mostly a matter of personal
GM preference as to what power level he's comfortable running in his
game, and if his players agree, fine and dandy. The key point is to
always consider how your players feel about rulings like that, as
they're the ones who are going to be most affected by it.
A GM should try to set the parmeters in his world that his/her
players are comfortable with, AND that don't outrage the sensibilities
of the GM. I've been in games where the GMs have believed their words as
incontrivertable (?) as God's, and VERY inflexible. Needless to say,
neither myself or a few other players stayed in that group for long.
Players like it when they feel they have a character that can go on and
survive a 'high adventure', instead of being relegated to, to use a AD&D
euphemism, '1st Level dungeon crawls'.
AD&D was the first RPG I ever played [after a hiatus of 10 years, I
finally got back into a friend's AD&D campaign; I'm playing an grey
elven warrior ala Gary Oldman's Dr. Smith as will be portrayed in the
upcoming Lost in Space Movie], and I think I speak for a number of the
'older' players in that you don't want to feel that you're running over
the same ground over and over and over again. You don't have to start
firing megacannons at each other either[besides, you couldn't get one
under your armor jack :-].
Everyone sets their own 'limits of growth' for their games [I leave
the character gen as is, and tend to have a skill capping off point of
9, in extreme cases. This includes making sure someone doesn't load up
on,say, physad points to give themselves a character with 14 dice in
unarmed combat, not including combat pool!].
Instead of limiting players like that, GENTLY encourage them to use
some of their skill points to purchase other things they need, like
Etiquettes, Knowledges, etc. I tend to play a 50/50 action~ roleplaying
type game, and to be honest, Shadowrun campaigns are at least partly
about combat. [If I wanted to be in a game where it's 10% action/90%
roleplaying, I'd play White Wolf more often.]. You want a character
that's going to survive, but it's not necessary to make a killing
machine. [Just say NO to Robocop characters; but that's MY personal
peeve]. And almost no on in my games tends to take the 'fireball' type
spells, anyway.
Just because a player doesn't want his character mindwiped by a
Mage's mana spell, is no reason to penalize him for wanting a high
Willpower. PCs ARE supposed to be the heroes of the story, and they
shoudl tend to be better than the average NPCs they meet. Of course
they'll meet others in their class, and a few above, but they shouldn't
be utter 'wooses'.
If a GM is worried about their 'starting' players being to
powerful, don't attack the problem head on, go AROUND it. You're setting
the playing field, not the PC [unless they're ESPECIALLY devious, and
I've had a few of those too.]. If they have high stats and skills making
them diff for a GM to challenge, take a peek where they're weak points
are , and strike there. Don't always go for the frontal attack. Don't
always try to 'over power' a PC. Go around them, hit them where they
don't expect it.
Character tends to carry twenty guns, and has more ammo than the
National Guard, have a spirit cause accident on him, making him fall
down a flight of stairs, all of his guns discharging simultaneously!. If
he survives that and the tumble, have the sec guards or whatever lock
the poor slob away, probably laughing too hard to think of geeking him.
Unstoppable cybertroll charging you with a strength of 14? Hit him
with an Ice Slick spell, wait till he slides out of control towards you,
then slam him with a pipe, or whatever's hand, preferably in the
kneecaps or 'lower regions'.
Killer mage with a deadly Mana 6 mind fry and a Bullet Barrier?
Have someone distract him, then slide a claymore to his feet. That
should put a crimp in his underware.
The point I'm trying to make is, you don't have to severely limit
players to have a PLAYABLE game; the GM just has to be more creative. As
far as roleplaying for PCs, no matter how much you kick a Player, he's
NOT going to roleplay more if he doesn't WANT to. Gently coax him in
that direction. You get more with a kind word and a gun, than you do
with just a gun. And if they don't want to roleplay, maybe they'd be
happier with table top board games, Warhammer 40K.
Guess I gotta say no to lower attribute/skill starting maxes to 4
or 5.
Victor
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:24 +0100
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (spoilers removed for the unknowing)
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J. Keith Henry said on 12:35/ 6 Jul 97...
> Hey, the SHADOWS!!!! Ultimate in Horror Manifestation (if they aren't,
> nothing the frag is)
I don't own any of the recent ED books, so I guess I've missed them. Maybe
it's time to play ED sometime again...
--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:18:43 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
Steve Kenson said:
<<OK, I'm getting some good feedback. Here's Survey Question #3...
One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more
of a
mystical/magical feel to it than it does now." I'm curious about the
idea,
since I don't quite understand it. Since SR magic is currently (IMHO)
based
on about 80% real-world magic theory and 20% fantasy magic (fireballs and
such) it feels pretty "mystical" to me. I'd like some feedback on the
issue.
Is SR magic "magical" enough? If not, how could it be better?>>
Well, I don't mind the hermetic viewpoint that SR magic is given myself,
all else aside, it does do a good job of not presenting the shaman's
view, though. I'll agree that hermetic theory is used most when dealing
with how magic works, etc, because it functions within a set of clearly
defined rules and guidlines. Shamanic magic, by its very nature, becomes
more unpredictable. But, like I said, the shamanic viewpoint isn't
presented *from* the shamanic viewpoint at any point in the books.
<<The one caveat I will have to put in is please, please don't tell me
"the
magic system should be more like Ars Magica, or Mage, or Earthdawn..." or
any
other role-playing game. The basic concepts of SR magic aren't going to
change, but we might be able to fix some of the "feel" of it.>>
:) You're lucky: SR's the only game I'm familiar enough with to discuss
such things on:)
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:32:34 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells -- Level 6?
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 16:46:13 +0100"
<E950EC4309@********.uibk.ac.at>
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You wrote:
> If your mage has no spells that can be resisted, than every level
> from 1-6 is ok. If your mage has even one resisted spell, than it
> would be a unnecessary loss of effectivity if he had him at any level
> but 6.
> Accuse me of munchkinism all you want, to me this is just common
> sense.
Unless, of course, those points would help you more somewhere else (i.e. you
can get enough out of a force 4 fireball...). I've tended to take only one or
two spells at a force of 6, if that. But I'm also using some force points to
pay for a focus, so I'm a little shy on points for what I want, usually. And
sometimes the high-force spells are the Invisibility and Physical Mask, to make
them hard to see through... I'm not accusing you of munchkinism, though it may
be the case, just of giving a sweeping generalization that is really untrue.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:51:21 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
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> From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
> Date: Monday, July 07, 1997 8:43 AM
> OK, I'm getting some good feedback. Here's Survey Question #3...
> One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more
of a
> mystical/magical feel to it than it does now." I'm curious about the
idea,
> since I don't quite understand it. Since SR magic is currently (IMHO)
based
> on about 80% real-world magic theory and 20% fantasy magic (fireballs and
> such) it feels pretty "mystical" to me. I'd like some feedback on the
issue.
> Is SR magic "magical" enough? If not, how could it be better?
<Snip>
Okay, here is the problem I have. However, it's not with the game system -
it's with GMs and Players. Many PCs seem to know everything about magic in
SR because the players know how it works. I absolutely despise this. I
can't stand it when Player and Character knowledge is intertwined. In my
house rules I make it very clear that if you want your PC to know more than
absolutely zilch about magic, the PC *must* have a Magical Theory skill.
If your backround states that you are comfortable with magic, or have
worked with mages in the past....buy a Magical Theory skill. The only way
any PC is going to know what's going on when trying to figure out something
magical, is to roll a successful Magical Theory test (although full blown
mages and shamans will be cut a little slack on the simple stuff).
The other thing I do to make things more unpredictable is use the rule of
magical misfires, mana fluctuation, null zones, etc.
Hopefully, my new group of players will keep the mystical feel of magic
with adequate role playing. We'll see. I don't see what the game system
can do to improve this situation, though.
> Steve K.
Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:58:52 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
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> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Date: Monday, July 07, 1997 7:51 AM
> Loki said on 2:29/ 6 Jul 97...
<Snip>
> > We finally ruled that 1's equal to or greater than Sorcery -OR- all
> > dice coming up 1's, whichever is lower, means the spell caster flubbed
> > it.
> That sounds like a good enough compromise. If you were to base it on the
> spell's Force, then even the world's greatest spellcasters would have a
> major chance of a fumble when casting low-Force spells, while avoiding
> fumbles should be based on skill -- someone who doesn't know what he or
> she is doing has a much greater chance of messing up big-time than
someone
> who's done the same thing a million times before.
> OTOH this does mean that if you cast a spell with less dice than your
> skill level you never ever mess up. Since spellcasting is supposed to be
> more of an art than a science, that doesn't feel right either. In short,
> I'd base it on the Sorcery skill, but let all ones take precedence, like
> you suggest.
Here's another suggestion. How about you use the standard magical misfire
rules (basing it on the force of the spell), BUT when casting a spell you
make an extra wound modified (4) test with your sorcery skill. Every
success earned offsets one 1 rolled while casting the spell. This does
NOT, however, apply to rolling all 1's. That is a botch, and can only be
avoided with karma, per the normal rules. Of course, there is no need for
making this extra test unless you are going to misfire with the way the
dice rolled. If you don't roll enough 1's to misfire, just don't make this
test. This test is an attempt to hold the magic together in the form of
the spell being cast, while it is trying to come apart at the seams. I
allows for knowledge of magic to offset some of the hazards of stuffing too
much mana into too small of a base spell. Comments?
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:06:00 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (spoilers removed for the unknowing)
In-Reply-To: <199707071517.JAA01678@******> from "Gurth" at Jul 7,
97 03:10:24 pm
Content-Type: text
Gurth wrote:
|
| J. Keith Henry said on 12:35/ 6 Jul 97...
|
| > Hey, the SHADOWS!!!! Ultimate in Horror Manifestation (if they aren't,
| > nothing the frag is)
|
| I don't own any of the recent ED books, so I guess I've missed them. Maybe
| it's time to play ED sometime again...
Nope. It's time to watch Babylon V. The Shadows are a race of Old
Ones (aliens that have been around for billions of years). They fit
the Horror mold pretty well.
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink! - The sound of a crescent roll being stolen.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:57:08 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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| Nightlife I have come to the conclusion that if you don't like magic
| in your game, play CP2020. It doesn't have any.
I think was kind of a cheap shot and unnecessary. NIghtlife has never even
hinted that he wanted to do away with magic, just that he feels the normal
"default" drain is too light. Lets try to keep it friendly, we're better
than that.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:39:11 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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| >The point that I was trying to make is that there will always be things
| >that certain people can do and others cannot. If a sammie is worthless
| >outside of combat then the person who made him was either a munchkin or
| >made a mistake. If a mage is bad in combat it should be for the same
| >reason, not because the rules forbid him from having a decent chance in
a
| >fight.
|
| Or just trying to follow what the precepts of the game set up for him.
I don't agree with this...I have always liked that SR didn't flat out
forbid anything from anyone...with the exception of magical ability after
character gen, but my point is the sammie should have some other skills
that have bearing on the game, whether they are electronics, or computer
skills, or some driving ability, or even negotiation for those pesky
meetings. That was my point, not that the sammie should not have any
combat skills.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
p.s. Sorry I am lagging, i'm a few days behind and it's a bit daunting to
say the least.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:03:10 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
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| >If the whiner wants to play with your group, he
| >will learn to keep his mouth shut.
|
| Actually he didn't he organized a little conspiracy behind my back
| thankfully my loyalists made me aware of this before it was to late.
For some reason this made me laugh really hard. :)
I can just see a man dressed in black coming to Nightlife and they would be
calling each other "Patriot," and such. Sorry the loyalist part just got
to me. =)
Proceed.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:55:19 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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| > | Let's take another example then.. F/2 exclusive manaball at force 6.
| > | The mage takes 2S drain; not hard to avoid. Add two dice and it's
| > | no drain at average with some margin of safety. (assuming he has 6
| > | willpower.). This leaves 10 dice for the success test.
| >
| > Exclusive spells are a completely different animal and not what we are
| > discussing.
|
| Oh, so ways to reduce drain has no bearing on a discussion of what
| base drain should be? How remiss of me. It is clear I have no idea
| whatsoever of how the magic system works, and withdraw from
| the argument... COME ON! Grow up!
The reason I said that it has no bearing is because for one thing the base
spell that someone is going to have is not exclusive, new players (which is
what the "default" is mainly for) will typically in my experience not take
exclusive spells because they have dreams of tossing spells around like
they are candy. Also exclusive do have their drawbacks as i'm sure you are
well aware and they benefits even out in the end.
| You guys argue like little children.
DO NOT!!!! <stamping foot>
You try to dredge up points
| where mages are weaker than samurai, and to prove the point, you use
| totally pointless examples. (A mage facing a samurai in a straight
| shootout fight with a power friggin bolt at force 4.. what mage in
| his right mind would do that?
That was exactly the point of what I was saying. You can't hope to do much
with a force 4 spell, but is the F drain was in effect force 6 spells would
be drain heavy.
And then when someone comes up with an
| example of a normal spell use that would waste the samurai, you go,
| Naa, naa, it has no bearing, and besides, the samurai would win
| initiative anyway.(Yeah, I snipped that part) Think a little before
| typing, because you can perfectly well figure out the next logical
| step in *that* armsrace. The mage will always be able to stay one
| step ahead of the samurai. Disregard, physical mask, control actions,
| influence could all be pieces in that game; several moves against
| which there is few countermoves except for another magician.
| What, there isn't an appropriate spell? The magician can MAKE one.
I still hold to the fact that exclusive and fetish requiring spells
benefits even out in the end and are generally not used be the players who
would not know the system well enough to adjust drain for their game to the
appropriate level. As for the arms race it will be pretty much equal
unless one side or the other gets stupid.
| My opinion is that F/2 coupled with fetishes and exclusive spells
| leave drain too easy to resist. Make the disadvantages with using
| fetishes and exclusive spells real, then it's okay enough, but as it
| is, it's flawed. Now you can argue that F drain is too much; but
| both you and I know that drain of a force 6 spell can be resisted as
| if it was force 2, so your arguments sound a bit hollow in my ears.
| But that's ok enough, since a force 11 spell can, with F/2, then be
| resisted against a base drain TN of 3. Now if that isn't 'major mojo'
| reduced a bit too easily, then nothing is. And of course if
| exclusivity and fetishes was not part of the picture, then a drain of
| F would be far too much; F/2 would then be fair.
And I have said from the beginning that Nightlife and yourself have had
viable points and if that kind of Mojo is being slung in your game then you
should use F drain, but I don't want to see a point reached where exclusive
and fetish requiring is a necessity for the more heavy duty spells (ala
fireball) to stay conscious. I still hold to the fact that new players who
will not know enough to change the drain code, should stay with the F/2 if
for no other reason but to show how deadly magic is in SR...that and the
fact that it is so rare is why it is feared. F drain will keep people from
taking the high force spells due to drain and then they will be much less
effective. That jump from 4 to 6 makes a huge difference.
| It's late, I'm tired. Be kind.
:p~~ Take that. :)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:42:57 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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| >So characters in your game don't ever get shot at? Do they stay inside?
| >(This is an honest question.)
|
| No, thats an insult. As for the question it's called bullet barrier.
I t was not meant as such...I have seen people who play mages as almost
strictly astral backup and as such they would never be shot at. Bullet
barrier is not a cure all as it either gives you plus 2 to TN's, or is on
an active lock, and adds to visibility mods. Doesn't mean I don't use it
too, but it has some drawbacks as well.
| >Recoil doesn't kill anyone, that's my point. A sam can deal out 18D
damage
| >with no side effect to resist, but ammo expenditures. Can a mage do
that
| >with magic?
|
|
| If he picks up the same gun he can. The sammie needs the gun to hand out
| that kind of damage. The mage can design a spell to duplicate it. Can the
| sammie summon a spirit?
Granted the mage can use the canon as well, and the sammie cannot use magic
(he could bond a free spirit though :), but the sammie cannot sling mojo
because he chose not to...it's not fair to penalize the mage to excess
because of it.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:07:35 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 11:51:21 -0400"
<199707071551.LAA12592@****.provide.net>
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You wrote:
> Okay, here is the problem I have. However, it's not with the game system -
> it's with GMs and Players. Many PCs seem to know everything about magic in
> SR because the players know how it works. I absolutely despise this.
So point out to your players their lack of knowledge, I guess. And if they
can't take the hint, no Karma awards for roleplaying, etc., though I don't
really believe in enforcing roleplaying. If they don't want to, hey, do
Warhammer or Battletech instead. :)
I
> can't stand it when Player and Character knowledge is intertwined. In my
> house rules I make it very clear that if you want your PC to know more than
> absolutely zilch about magic, the PC *must* have a Magical Theory skill.
> If your backround states that you are comfortable with magic, or have
> worked with mages in the past....buy a Magical Theory skill.
True, but what if you don't really understand it, but you are comfortable with
its general effects (you're a sammy, but you've partnered with this shaman for
over three years now, you'ver worked out your tactics together, you have a
grasp of how magic is used in combat, but no real understanding of how it's
done)? That isn't a skill, per se, it's character background.
The only way
> any PC is going to know what's going on when trying to figure out something
> magical, is to roll a successful Magical Theory test (although full blown
> mages and shamans will be cut a little slack on the simple stuff).
That would require a pretty hefty number of points in the skill, not the 1 or 2
that 'familiarity with magic' would represent, rather a year or two at least of
serious study, imo. I'd think a point or two in the skill would be enough to
recognize general effects without rolling for it, myself. After all, we don't
force characters to 'roleplay' their unfamiliarity with combat when bullets
start flying, even if they're a mage. Most people their first time in combat
are a little stunned, especially if not trained in it.
> Hopefully, my new group of players will keep the mystical feel of magic
> with adequate role playing. We'll see. I don't see what the game system
> can do to improve this situation, though.
I think more the example descriptions and 'flavor text' is what conveys the
mood of magic in SR, that's what he's talking about to some extent, the way
magic is portrayed. Of course game mechanics cannot easily portray mood
(though detailed ones like Ars Magica do so, they are cumbersome for a
fast-paced system like SR).
And as for roleplaying, well, some people would be really comfortable and bored
with magic. It becomes just another tool to them. Think of the Combat Mage
and Burned-out Mage Archetypes, they're not googly-eyed over magic, it's
something they use, every day, and they don't try to make it mysterious and
interesting to others.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:00:29 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
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| Huh?
| I thought I was involved in this discussion already, are my posts getting
| through?
Sorry about that Greg my faux pas (uh huhuhuh I said faux pas) I was in
such a hurry to keep up with the mail that I misunderstood who was asking
the question...sorry 'bout that.
| I was just clarifying for Victor why we were discussing this; or more
| accurately why I am involved in discussing this. In cases like the F
| vs.F/2 debate I would normally take the position that it doesn't matter,
| use whatever makes you happy, then I wouldn't have to stress over
| nightlife's insistence that mages take damage every time they cast a
spell
| ;-> That's why, although I've been on the list for like two years now I
| hardly ever post.
That's what I was trying to do also, just in a more roundabout way. =)
| Geez I'm feeling sorta invisible...
Anyone else hear that? <grin>
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:32:34 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Drain, devolving into Selection of Skills...
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Caric says:
> I don't agree with this...I have always liked that SR didn't flat out
>forbid anything from anyone...with the exception of magical ability after
>character gen, but my point is the sammie should have some other skills that
>have bearing on the game, whether they are electronics, or computer
>skills, or some driving ability, or even negotiation for those pesky
>meetings. That was my point, not that the sammie should not have any combat
>skills.
>
>Victor says:
> I echo Caric's statements. Other than the 'Mage' abilities avaliable at
>character gen, you're not limited by 'fighter' or 'magik user' classes. Newer
>players won't necessarily see the reasoning behind giving their characters
>skills like Driving or Electronics, etc. [and a few powergammers :-{}
><grrrrr> ], so GMs should subtly place them in situations where such skills
>are required. That is if the player responds well to 'expanding' the scope of
>his character. He may like just being from the 'CONAN' school of
>shadowrunning.
>
>'There's Mayhem, and then there's SMART Mayhem!'.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:32:03 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Greg <greg@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: shotguns and silencers
In-Reply-To: <199707070453.AAB42526@*****.frontiernet.net>
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At 12:51 AM 7/7/97 -0400, SilverFire wrote:
> I believe there is sound suppresion for the Barret, but I don't
believe
>that it can be truly silenced considering the size and all. The only reason
>I know that it can be muffled is that one of my Street Sams got it as part
>of payment for a run for some guy in the Army who called himself Sgt.
>Slaughter for some ungodly reason. Of course the less said about that run
>the better.
>
I actually know of an infantry Sargeant in the US Army that is named
Slaughter... by birth.
<greg>
Knowing is half the battle
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:05:40 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Return of MC23
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| >MC23 and TopCat...can you say oil and water? I think you can. :)
| >
| >This is gonna be fun!
|
|
| Ummm...Caric? How do you define 'fun'?
Not very well i'm sure.
:)
Muahahaha!!!!
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:12:36 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Wide World of Maps
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| Maps. Lots of people want more of a map, I'd wouldn't be against it
| myself. I'm curious to see just where the Heavenherders founded Azania
| and all:)
Okay so I was reading through Canthros' post thinking "mm hmm, yes, I like
what you've done here <nod>," when I remembered something. I had gotten a
ride to our SR game this Saturday, which I am later going to use as an
excuse so bear with me, when I notice that about a block from Loki's house
where we normally play there is a store called "World of Maps." Now I took
a double take and then thought that might be a good place to check out and
I can't beleive that I had never seen it before since I drive right by
there about four or six times every week. I will stick to the story that
because I am such an alert driver I was always watching the road and so
never saw it. :) Anyway it was too late to check it out that night, but
i'll check it out later this week and if it has a wide selection of good
maps i'll let you guys know.
World of Maps...who would of thunk it.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:31:48 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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| >Many people have suggested setting Spell Drain TNs back at Force instead
of
| >F/2. What do people think of this? Please remember, I need to know WHY
you
| >think the idea is good or bad.
| >
| I actually think it should be on a spell by spell basis, maybe...
<snip Bull's points and examples>
Alright that's it!!!! Here we are trying to have a legitimate debate about
drain codes, and Bull has to come along and offer an alternative that might
make sense. I'll not stand for it!!!! Stop this foolishness at once.
:)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:28:29 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: SR3 Debate
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| >True enough... and on this side, how about the 3rd edition suggestions
going
| >straight to Mr. Kenson instead of going to the list? This way, many
hours
| >of needless argumentative posting can be avoided. For example, one
person
| >says drain should be F one person says drain should be F/2, they argue
for
| >days over it and nothing gets accomplished except a lot of posts of "I'm
| >right" "No, I'm right". If they go straight to Steve, then we avoid
this
| >problem and suggestions actually get to be suggestions instead of
debates.
|
| I like reviewing things through debate. With feedback the
| troublesome issues can be properly viewed or, more to my style, ripped
| apart to see what's broken so it can be rebuilt into a "stronger" idea,
| as it were. I would have loved to have gotten into some type review on
| the companion before it hit. That book does make me wary of what could
| happen with the new rules. <shudder>
| Now the trick would be to recognize when a topic has gone from a
| debate to just flogging a dead horse.
| Besides, I hate the idea that people could be sending in silly ideas
| that could get published without me ever having a chance for countering
| it.
I must agree with MC23 on this one. I think that Steve wants some ideas
that have been hashed out and discussed, calmly and with forethought. (I'm
tryin' guys)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:20:58 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
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| >You restricted it to combat in the first place. Combat or no, Drain
that
| >is damn near statistically impossible to resist is just silly. It
worked
| >marginally well in SRI due to the use of Sorcery as resist and the
varying
| >staging. It wouldn't work in SRIII without major rule revamping.
|
| Actually Caric took it there first. As for silly SR1 mages actually has
to
| try to sling the major mojo unlike SR2 mages who have it all and the
kitchen
| sink too.
True, it probably was I who used combat as an example, and I still think
that it is the best one to use because that is where drain is going to be
the most crucial. Who cares if they take a light drain when casting a
spell right before bedtime? :) SR1 rules weren't bad and I liked them for
magic as well, but I don't see that SR2 mages became more powerful, just
different, I mean after all they lost "Turn to Goo" as a spell in the main
book. :)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:14:13 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: B>]#
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| ><poltergeist>
| > I'm baaaaaack!!!
| ></poltergeist>
|
|
| Oh, dear. And the list was just getting back to normal (alright, so
| TopCat got here before that could happen. Even so...)
|
|
| :)
I think the list was set up on an ancient indian burial ground. It would
sure explain alot. =)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:53:58 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
In-Reply-To: <970706124946_-1260214228@*******.mail.aol.com> from "J. Keith
Henry" at Jul 6, 97 12:49:47 pm
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|And then comes along ED, with spells that can level cities, adept powers that
|rival the Spice Melange (spelling?) in pure form, and who knows what else...
I wouldn't worry too much.
Those kinds of magics are still centuries away in the Shadowrun
timeline.....
(Apart from our old buddies the IE....)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:01:35 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@***01.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707071614.LAA11722@********.mcit.com>
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On 7 Jul 97 at 8:57, Caric wrote:
> | Nightlife I have come to the conclusion that if you don't like magic
> | in your game, play CP2020. It doesn't have any.
>
> I think was kind of a cheap shot and unnecessary. NIghtlife has never even
> hinted that he wanted to do away with magic, just that he feels the normal
> "default" drain is too light. Lets try to keep it friendly, we're better
> than that.
Your right, and you should read all your mail before replying, as
this thread ended this weekend with apologies all around.
--
=DREKHEAD========================================================
drekhead@***.net --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html ---
=================================================================
=================================================================
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot
stomping on a human face...forever. -George Orwell
=================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:54:32 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: something different ... actors for SR
On Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:00:02 -0500 William Monroe Ashe
<wma6617@*NIX.TAMU.EDU> writes:
[...]
>Dunkelzahn: I see him as very charming, very "pretty" So I would cast
>Tom Cruise (both for cheesy marketing reasons, and he can actually act
>sometimes)
What???!?!?!?!
[...]
~Tim (not envisioning Tom Cruise as a great-wyrm anything...)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:54:32 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: NPC maintenance
On Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:06:03 -0700 Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM> writes:
>There a utility something like this that should work for characters
>and NPC's on Grifter's page. It's called Shadowrun pad.
>
>http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/2055/
>
>Only drawback is that he hasn't put a print feature in it yet. :o(
Really slick. Two thumbs up.
[And if any one has the new v1.1 (32-bit) please tell me if it runs
flawlessly on *your* system, it behaves a bit weird on my mine.]
As for print? well yeah, but IIRC the character files are just TXT, so if
you REALLY wanted to you could *easily* whip up a third party print
utility for it.
~Tim
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:54:32 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Consolidated Health Spells
On Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:30:28 -0400 MC23 <mc23@**********.COM> writes:
> I have never understood the need for separate spells for healing
>different levels of disease, poison, raise/lower attribute, etc. Why
>would anyone take the lower levels of these spells knowing that they
>might need one of a different level. These should all be unified like
>Heal and Treat were when 2nd edition came out. It just makes more sense
>to do so. They should be 1 spell with different drains for the
>different levels.
Yup. Our group has always played Treat/Heal spells as having a drain
equal to whatever level of damage you were trying to treat/heal. That
is, you just learned Treat or Heal in general, and if you cast it on a
guy with a Light wound the drain was L, if the wound was S then the drain
would be S too, etc.. Much less of a headache and it made more sence to
us.
~Tim
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:57:26 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 09:31:48 -0700"
<199707071646.MAA22025@********.mcit.com>
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You wrote:
| >Many people have suggested setting Spell Drain TNs back at Force instead of
> >F/2. What do people think of this? Please remember, I need to know WHY you
| >think the idea is good or bad.
> >
| I actually think it should be on a spell by spell basis, maybe...
> <snip Bull's points and examples>
> Alright that's it!!!! Here we are trying to have a legitimate debate about
> drain codes, and Bull has to come along and offer an alternative that might
> make sense. I'll not stand for it!!!! Stop this foolishness at once.
Mafe F instead of F/2 a possible modifier during spell creation (ala 3rd Ed
Grimoire...) and use it in the spells for 2nd ed. Toss in variable staging for
drain, and T# modifiers for drain, and you've now got a lot of options for
spell drain codes, which is nice, imo. :) Save F base drain for the big
nasties (Attribute increase spells, for instance).
losthalo, making life harder for game designers, so he can take their jobs ;)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:54:32 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: FASA Site
On Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:23:54 -0400 "Steven A. Tinner"
<bluewizard@*****.COM> writes:
>Have patience people.
>It appears to just be working on a timed "push" system.
>Yes you get stuck at the ad for awhile, but eventually you skip ahead to
>the main page.
>Then again, some browsers may not support push tech after all ... sorry.
I guess you'll just have to blow some Karma to keep SOTA huh?
~Tim
>"Every word is nonsense, but I understand ..." - Counting Crows
"O-oh lord, I'm not ready for this sort of thing...."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:08:53 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970706182757.1a3f66b0@***.tiac.net> from
"Kabael" at
Jul 6, 97 06:26:22 pm
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|works well, ever since I got Earthdawn, I wondered just what the sequence of
|events was, and it ended up close to that. One question though...how can we
|be sure that what we would call the 1st age was the first, maybe it was
|merely the first recorded/remebered age, some might have become before.
That's almost a certainty if you think about it. The "1st world" must have
been along the lines of 45000 years ago. The Earth is several Billion, and
life has been around in some form for about 300 to 500 million years (Give
or take a billion).
Magic MUST have cycled back then as well. Who knows, maybe the horrors
caused the extinction of the dinosaurs, and wiped out whatever civilisation
the 0th world was, hence, no-one remembered it......
|Also, is each age the same for every planet in the universe or at least in
|our solar system, does each rise and fall together, or is it only a
|planetary phenomenon.
It's genarally believed that there can be no magic without life, so there
should be no magic on the moon, for example.
Mars? Well, we might know soon... :)
|>| !) is SR magic a limited form of adept magic or is a new form alltogether,
|>|maybe Psionics?
|>
|>Nope. It's very limited adept magic. Think about it.
|>A quickening viewed from astral resembles a thread. We just haven't figured
|>out how to weave them into REALLY powerful spells.... Yet.....
|>
|
|really! now that is interesting, but what does SR magic have drain, while ED
|doesnt.
Earthdawn Magic is very subtle. In shadowrun, without threadweaving, they
use nothing but pure force casting raw magic.
(There's no need for spell matrices yet, because very few areas have
background counts of +5 (tainted enough to cause damage).
When the Horrors arrived in ED, the entire astral plane was tainted to some
extent, so matrices were essensial to filter the energy.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:12:09 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties
In-Reply-To: <009B6DC4.5F10B620.26@******.edu> from "VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I
DROP PRONE" at Jul 6, 97 06:39:16 pm
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|
|-4) just when will all the elves in Tir start having thorns pop out of thier
|-skin ( didn't one of the SR books have illistration of a blood elf?)
|
|actually, i _think_ only the elves of tir na nog, which is either the physical
|location of the bloodwood or the metaphysical location, will sprout the thorns
|when the mana gets high enough.
Well, it's very doubtful if it's the PHYSICAL location, because Barsaive,
from the map, has been generally pinpointed around somewhere in eastern
europe. (Was the serpent the Danube? Can't remember....)
i believe that tir tairngire is the
|<meta>physical location of city of spires, and the elves that lived there (such
|as harly) did not and will not sprout thorns.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:52:13 -0800
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Skye Comstock <bilbo@****.NWLINK.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adpets, what do you play?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970706202548.007d9270@***.iquest.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>What sort of characters do you play when playing a PA?
I usually play "ninja" types-- adepts that focus on stealth and
subterfuge rather than loud guns and heavy feet. I've also made
a couple gun-slingers that turned out rather nicely. The money
wasn't much, so he usually ended up with a good Savalette or
two. <g>
>They never will be anywhere near as powerful as a sammy, right?
Maybe not compared to a sammy with A in resources, but over
time, with initiation and such, they can compete fairly well. I
don't look at characters from a stand-point of one being
better than another, I just play it.
>What are the advantages of playing one in SRII?
Dunno, don't have SR1...
>I know this is probably an old subject, but pointers to relative texts
>would be extremely helpful.
Yes, it is. ;)
-Skye
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:00:11 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 08:33 PM 7/2/97 -0005, woneal@*******.NET wrote:
>On 2 Jul 97 at 15:09, Michael Broadwater wrote:
>
>> At 03:25 PM 7/2/97 -0005, woneal@*******.NET wrote:
>> >On 1 Jul 97 at 23:24, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> The mere fact that a target is a megacorporation doesn't change the
>> >> financial cost of a given run against it, and your fixation that every
>> >> run against any megacorp involves a cost of billions is the crux of the
>> >> problem here. If the cost is small, the benefit of pursuit is similarly
>> >> small.
>> >
>> > That's half the crux. I get the distinct impression that Bob
>> thinks all
>> >runners are pond scum, low-lives, street trash and rank amatuers. He
>> >seems to think that there are no professionals in the shadow business,
>> >that they are all lying, thieving criminals. That a very limit view of a
>> >very diverse group. Obviously *some* runners fit into that category, but
>> >there are plenty who don't.
>>
>> Yeah, they're are all those heroe's out there that are clean cut,
>> wonderful people with no problems with society, and that's why they run
>> the shadows rather than use their skills to a productive end. I mean,
>> they learned all that great stuff at the corp and left because the corps
>> are bad mean people. Or they learned it in the military because gov't's
>> are all bad mean people. And now they run against corps and the gov't
>> for other corps and gov't's and don't worry about killing because, of
>> course, if you work for a corp, you aren't trying to feed your family and
>> be a good member of society, you're one of the bad mean people who's
>> bringing down the world with your crimes. You know, you kill people.
>> Oh, and shadowrunners who do are different. They're heroes of the common
>> man. You know, that ones that work at corps and try to be a productive
>> member of society. But not ones you encounter. Those are all bad mean
>> people, and shadowrunners are heroes and great guys. Yeah!
>>
>
> My we are feeling sarcastic aren't we. Borrowed Bob's blinders
did you?
>No, they aren't heroes of the common man, and no where did I say or imply
>that. What I did say is that not all of them are street punks.
No, you said all of them aren't criminals. That's a huge difference in
your arguement. Your example was of a criminal. Breaking and entering is
a crime, datat steals are a crime, casting a spell with intent to harm is a
crime, not having a SIN is a crime, carrying a weapon without the proper
permits is a crime. Shadowrunners=Criminals. QED.
Try and keep up.
Mike Broadwater
"I don't care if you don't like my manners. I don't like them much myself.
They're pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:15:54 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
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| [lots and lots of Drain discussion snipped]
|
| O-kaaaaay. I would like to put the Drain discussion on hold for a bit.
I've
| gotten a lot of good feedback, but it seems like things have gotten down
to
| the "is not! is so!" level of discussion.
DID NOT!!!!
Sorry. :)
<Snip>
| How about this: make Combat and Damaging Manipulation (DM) spells both
work
| just like Ranged Combat damage; the target of the spell has to stage the
| damage ALL the way down to nothing instead of just beating the caster on
| successes (I know DMs already work this way, but bear with me). The
| proceedure:
I think that this would clear up alot of the problem that I had with
raising the drain, and it would allow for a more diverse mage/shaman with
his starting force points. If the drain was raised to F then it would
bring it back into balance. I like it, but I think that the people who
already felt magic was too powerful might disagree with it. It also
changes to a question of the magic users skill as opposed to a race to see
who can get the highest attribute.
| EXAMPLE:
|
| Caric the street mage squares off against NightLife, the samurai : )
Stop...i'm blushing.
| The above is an extreme example: a Willpower 6 target SHOULD be tough to
| affect, but under this sceheme, Caric still did damage. Under the current
| system, he would have done none. Against an opponent of equal Will 4:
Agreed they should be tough, but not impossible which is what you have
addressed. The force 3 and 4 spells could now have more use and the Dart
and Missle spells would be more effective as well.
| How does something like this work for everyone?
Works for me...sorry about the wound Nightlife...Steve made me do it. :)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:32:22 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
In-Reply-To: <970707084349_1859766765@*******.mail.aol.com> from "Steve
Kenson" at Jul 7, 97 08:43:51 am
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|The one caveat I will have to put in is please, please don't tell me "the
|magic system should be more like Ars Magica, or Mage, or Earthdawn..." or any
|other role-playing game.
Not even Shadowrun 1st Ed????
The basic concepts of SR magic aren't going to
|change, but we might be able to fix some of the "feel" of it.
The "feel" of it was much better in first....
I know I'm flogging a dead horse, but please (pretty please <pretty please
with sugar on it>) look into the idea of variable staging......
:)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:36:59 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PRONE <downsa@******.EDU>
Subject: Barrier spells
hello all,
a question about barrier spells. a mage throws up a barrier spell and
is attacked by physical means (guns, arrows, whatever). does the barrier
degrade as a actual barrier upon being struck by something powerful, or not?
Aaron
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:41:13 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: William Monroe Ashe <wma6617@*NIX.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Physical Adpets, what do you play?
In-Reply-To: <v03007800afe6dca1aaed@[206.129.19.52]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
My physical adept was a detective. He had a large stealth, and
specialized in tracking and tailing people. He also had the "Body Morph"
power that was discussed on this list a while ago. He was a whole lot of
fun to play. I played him sort of like Mike Hammer, but a lot more
sophisticated.
Note: the body morph power could be abused very easily. I could see an
assassin with it being very hard to stop. My GM gave the power a very
serious drawback in that it caused my character to have a very "weird"
and distinctive aura that was immediately noticeable. We never had any
problem with it. It is a cool power, but only let your "responsible"
players have it.
Regards
Bill
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:44:10 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
In-Reply-To: <6263381593@**.opp.psu.edu> from "Brett Borger" at Jul 7,
97 10:22:52 am
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|
|> > Just wait until the "Hunter of dragons" shows up and then decides to
get
|> > Wired Reflexes 3 nd mabye orthoskin then tries to hunt you down. then
|> > you'll be praying for the passions to teach you to tie threads .
|>
|> One quesiton: WHY would good old Verji want wired reflexes? Looks to
|> me like he's powerful enough already...
|
|Simple. Verji's a Munchie. Isn't it obvious?
Ahhh, but Verji's a dual natured dude, in't'ee?
Which means, he'd be losing power on one side to gain a lesser power on the
other.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:19:01 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
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| > Caric throws his Mana Missile at Force 4, adding in 4 dice from his
Magic
| > Pool. He rolls 8 dice against TN 6 (NightLife's Will). He gets 1
success.
| >
| > Steve
|
| Just one thing: Caric would be veeeeery stupid if he had learnt the
| spell at level 4. Why not at level 6? costs just 2 spell points
| more, while it makes the spell really deadly. This was a problem in
| my group: every single combat spell was at level 6, and there was no
| thing that could have been done about it.
| Combat spells only make sense at level 6.
I would have for a few reasons.
1) The drain would now be F instead of F/2 which means I have to roll
higher number to keep from knocking myself out, and if this is a spell I
cast often then that is very important.
2) If I learn it at a lower force and it is still going to be effective
than I can use the other force points or karma for something else...as a
mage there is never enough of either of these.
3) A lower force spell is not as easy to detect when cast.
Well there it is straight from the horses mouth.
:)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:01:28 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
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| > > Drop heavy pistol damage from 9M to 6M (or to the same as SMGs, if
damage
| > > codes/rules will be changed).
| > Ummmm, *why*? Heavy pistol ammo (.357, .44, etc.) is _not_ used in
SMGs, they
| > use lighter rounds like the 9mm or 10mm. And the damage codes are low
enough
| > as-is, imo.
As I am sure Loki has already stated we lowered HP's to 6M in our campaign
as well, in fact I didn't know anyone else had done that. ANyway the way
that we look at is like this. The power of the attack is what is reduced
by armor, so it seems to be a measurement of the penetrating power of the
round. A HP, SMG, and assault rifle all do Moderate damage to what they
hit. An assault rifle should penetrate better in my opinion however.
Round size has something to do with it, but not nearly as much as SR would
make you think. An M-16 fires .223 caliber rounds and a Glock-17 fires
9mm. The glock fires a larger round, but will not penetrate anywhere near
as well as the m16. A second reason we made the change is that armor is
designed to stop bullets. With Hp's at a 9M damage code people were
feeling as though they had to walk around with layered armor all the time
in order to stay alive, now while we still layer armor on runs, when I go
to the local pub I can feel secure with just a jacket and I don't have to
wear that uncomfortable body armor. To me this seems more like what the
case would be. I wouldn't wear bod armor constantly in RL, why would
anyone else want to. If you were to shoot someone today with a 9mm round
from a pistol, and that person was wearing a vest, the would probab;y not
take any damage other thatn bruises or a cracked rib. I can see weapons
progressing as time passed, but wouldn't armor due the same? Finally we
wanted to bring machine pistols to a point that they made sense, and SMG's
were useful as well. With all the burst capable HP's out there now SMG's
were falling by the wayside.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:47:45 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (spoilers removed for the unknowing)
In-Reply-To: <199707071309.PAA06031@**********.xs4all.nl> from "Gurth" at
Jul
7, 97 03:10:24 pm
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|
|J. Keith Henry said on 12:35/ 6 Jul 97...
|
|> Hey, the SHADOWS!!!! Ultimate in Horror Manifestation (if they aren't,
|> nothing the frag is)
|
|I don't own any of the recent ED books, so I guess I've missed them. Maybe
|it's time to play ED sometime again...
Missed them? We're talking Babylon 5 / Earthdawn crossover here Gurth.....
:)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:36:04 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
MIME-Version: 1.0
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| Well, since SMGs have damage codes now equivalent to heavy pistols, and
| comparable concealabilities, why _ever_ bother with a heavy pistol? Why
| wouldn't they have been phased out long ago? Why do people now prefer
| (sometimes) a Colt Python to a .38 service revolver? Because it does
more
| damage, that's why. Some distinction between SMG calibers and heavy
pistol
| calibers (here I mean 9-10mm and the .44mag/11mm respectively) needs to
be
| made. Otherwise, no one will carry a heavy pistol unless they just like
the
| style better, whereas in reality (don't cringe when I say that) there are
| reasons to want the hand cannon that is the Ruger Warhawk or equivalent.
They
| knock *big* holes in things with one shot, whereas SMGs and assault
rifles
| concentrate on sending multiple lighter rounds at the target at once.
The m16
| round is honestly little, as are most SMG rounds, compared to any
manstopping
| handgun.
The round is smaller yes, but the bullet penatrates more effectively,
because of the velocity. In SR assault rifles, smg's, and HP's all do the
same damage...moderate. But apparently HP's penetrate barriers better. In
RL that is just not the case. A .44 will penetrate sure, but an assault
rifle can do it as well with a smaller round.
| And in a game balance light, reducing heavy pistols to 7M? Hmm, 2M to
resist,
| no one ever worries about pistols hurting them any more. The to-hit is
harder
| than the resistance test... Although if you've found it balanced i nyour
| compaigns, more power to you, I know what it'd do to mine.
You have to consider however that the defender needs more successes than
the attacker, and that in alot of cases will roll fewer dice.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:31:31 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
MIME-Version: 1.0
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| A Force 4 spell (mediocre), cast at a Willpower 6 opponent (max human)
was
| still able to cause damage. This damage didn't have to go through armor
and
| couldn't be staged down by a body test. This change would make combat
| spells WAY too powerful. If you wish combat spells to act like DMs, then
| make them face the same drain codes as DMs and give the opponent a
| resistance test to resist the damage. Nobody would use damaging
| manipulations if combat spells were this easy to cast and this
devastating
| in power. *Please* don't make that change...
The oponent would still get a resistance test. Combat spells will still
have higher target numbers and heaven help them if the opposition has
shielding. DM's will have lower target numbers, but the opponent gets some
or all of there impact armor. The drain would be high enough that it would
even out. The higher target numbers on combat spells would limit there
effectiveness in comparison to DM's.
| On another note, please consider taking elemental effect spells (e.g.
| fireball and hellblast) out of the combat spell section and making them
| damaging manipulations. Elemental effects on combat spells get kinda
| strange and there's been an endless debate/rant about the "real" drain
codes
| for Hellblast and the effects it would have. Simply moving these
| complicating aspects from one section and placing them in another would
make
| life a lot simpler all around.
This I agree with. Lets keep elemental effects in the manipulation
realm...it seems to make more sense. I know elemental effects on combat
spells tend to be less pronounced, but still.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:54:06 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
On Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:50:05 -0600 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
writes:
>I don't have the rules handy, does it actually say that the recovery
>costs are multiplied also? Cuz that doesn't make sense to me.
In a way, it does make a bit of sence.
Given the extremely delicate nature of the surgery (for alpha, beta,
gamma, etc.. grade) this could be justified in the intensive testing,
observations, alterations and general post-op stuff that they would do to
ensure that EVERYTHING is healing, connecting and interfacing at the
appropriate level.
In a nut shell, you can't go have massive brain surgery and then have a
podiatrist oversee your recovery.
~Tim (that and it's a bigger nuyen sink that way..)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:54:05 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: MANA vs PHYSICAL spell
On Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:40:10 +0200 Dion Scher <Dscher@****.CO.ZA> writes:
>Thanks for the reply, but I the responses are missing my question. I'm
>NOT asking whats the advantage of a ManaMissile but what's the
>DISADVANTAGE of a MANAmissile. Why would I bother, as a mage, to learn
>powermissile when I could learn ManaMissile. Statistically speaking, I
>will have a better chance of combatting enemies with ManaMissile. So
>why bother with PowerMissile?
Well, as great as ManaMissle is, it will to slightly less than JACK
against anything other than a living being.
Mana spells hit only living stuff, "Power-" spells take out *everything*
(cars, doors, drones, walls, pesky aircraft, people, critters, etc..)
~Tim
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:54:06 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
On Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:02:51 -0500 William Monroe Ashe
<wma6617@*NIX.TAMU.EDU> writes:
>The Great Steve wrote:
>
>OK, I'm getting some good feedback. Here's Survey Question #3...
>
>One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more
>of a mystical/magical feel to it than it does now."
>******
>
>I am inclined to agree with the more "scientific" viewpoint. Most
people
>would approach magic using the only framewoek they have, which is a
>scientific/mathematical backgound. The shamans while using dancing,
>chanting etc etc would still view the big picture in a scientific way.
>
>i.e. "Well mana is this it obeys these 'rules' ... I access and control
>the mana via my totem, the ritual ..."
Nope, nope, nope.
Any shaman like that would probably be a closet hermetic who's only
fooling *himself*.
To hermetics, magic is a science with clearly defined laws, theories and
procedures.
To a shaman, magic is more of a living art or a debate with the natural
forces. You don't do things because of this and such law of metaphysics
and mana-flow dynamics, but rather cause it's what would make the spell
this time - as it may be different later.... Oh, I don't know, I'm more
of a scientific kinda guy to begin with, but I *know* that shamans don't
view it that way.
Just look at the two styles of spell/focus/ally/whatever designs.
Hermetics use complex mathematical formula, while shamans use a
sandpainting, or a sculpture or a song or something else.
~Tim
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:59:17 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells -- Level 6?
In-Reply-To: <E78EF579FF@********.uibk.ac.at>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 15:00 7/7/97 +0100, you wrote:
>> This is my biggest pet peeve, and I'm in the middle of writing an article
>> about it for TSS. Characters will 4 or 5 skills/spells at 6, and nothing
>> lower.
>
>the reason for combat spells exclusively at level 6 is obvious...
>since their level is the target number for defending against them...
>So there is absolutely nothing that could be done about it...
>wait..
The reason is obvious. To create a munchy character that can 'win' the
game alot easier. I've said this several times recently; A 'real' person
wouldn't and doesn't have several skills/spells at a high rating, they
would have more at various ratings. We are representing a real living
human being in this game, aren't we? Or is 'he' merely a sheet with some
high numbers on it to make the dice rolls easier?
>Hmm.. I see no reason to have skills only at level 6 since they don't
>influence a target number... Sure, you'll save a bit karma if you
>start with level 6 skills and learn the ones at lower level later,
>but I always thought I was the only one who had noticed...
Its cheaper to take skills at '6' during chargen, but its alot cheaper to
raise a couple skills from 3 --> 4 --> 5 than it is to start at 0 and work
your way up.
I'm working on some alternate chargen rules to encourage diversity in
skills. Stay tuned :)
-Aj
--
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@*ndernet \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
"Can I have a cup of angst to go with my un-happy meal?" -- Hi & Lois
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:58:06 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Runner's Attitudes
MIME-Version: 1.0
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<snip just about everything that's gone before...>
This is really just devolving into a I'm right/ you're scum debate,
and to paraphrase Ford Fairlane; "Having this conversation is like
masturbating with a cheese grater. Kinda interesting at first, but
mostly painful.".
I think the 'conflicting' views expressed in the front of the
Shadowrun Companion prety much says it all. Not all runners are saints,
nor are they all viscously, amoral killers only out to make a buck. And
most are just people trying to get by. Every player should set his/her
own moral limits as to who she/he will or will not kill [ some of us
just have our meters turned lower than others, while some have the thing
completely off, and have smashed the control from the wall!]. You play
your cold hearted killers, I'll play my 'Saints' [we both cack just as
many people, I'm just more discriminatory about who catches a bullet
from me <GRIN>].
Kohl, the 'I try not to kill on principle if I don't have to, unless I
meet an out of control death dealer, who slags a innocents in the
crossfire, then the kid gloves are off!', physad ork gunslinger.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:51:15 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Shawn McCollum <Shawn_McCollum@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
I would really like to see some big changes in the way a characters
attributes and skills are handled. I have only one problem with the
current system and that is THE SKILL WEB. The skill web is just
really a relic of the first edition that should have been eradicated
in the second. If you remove the skill web concept from the game
though alot of things have to be revamped. I would like to see a
skill+attribute based system, which might make dice pools obsolete
also. The skill web just makes things to annoying, I hate counting
dots. Having an firearms skill and and then only getting a +2 when
using a vehicle mounted weapon or a guy with only ettiquette only
getting a +2 for negotation or interogation rolls. Please do not clog
the list with flames about my examples or ideas, please discuss only
the merits and flaws of getting rid of the skill web.
Andrew Payne III
-- Hater of the one line "That's stupid" reply posts
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:53:12 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties
In-Reply-To: <5401.199707071708@******.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Earthdawn Magic is very subtle. In shadowrun, without threadweaving, they
>use nothing but pure force casting raw magic.
>(There's no need for spell matrices yet, because very few areas have
>background counts of +5 (tainted enough to cause damage).
>When the Horrors arrived in ED, the entire astral plane was tainted to some
>extent, so matrices were essensial to filter the energy.
so, what would the background count be for the UCLA area?
/-justin@****.mcp.com----------------------jbell@****.mcp.com--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:07:19 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970707125312.007d21a0@***.iquest.net> from
"Jaymz" at
Jul 7, 97 12:53:12 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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|
|>Earthdawn Magic is very subtle. In shadowrun, without threadweaving, they
|>use nothing but pure force casting raw magic.
|>(There's no need for spell matrices yet, because very few areas have
|>background counts of +5 (tainted enough to cause damage).
|>When the Horrors arrived in ED, the entire astral plane was tainted to some
|>extent, so matrices were essensial to filter the energy.
|so, what would the background count be for the UCLA area?
Why? What's so special about UCLA????
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:07:04 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties
In-Reply-To: <5824.199707071807@******.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:07 PM 7/7/97 +0100, you wrote:
>|
>|>Earthdawn Magic is very subtle. In shadowrun, without threadweaving, they
>|>use nothing but pure force casting raw magic.
>|>(There's no need for spell matrices yet, because very few areas have
>|>background counts of +5 (tainted enough to cause damage).
>|>When the Horrors arrived in ED, the entire astral plane was tainted to some
>|>extent, so matrices were essensial to filter the energy.
>
>|so, what would the background count be for the UCLA area?
>
>Why? What's so special about UCLA????
I don't have my cal free book around, but there's some sort of screwy stuff
in place due to the "magical pranks" UCLA and (Berkley?) sorry, don't know
caliornia very well.
Using magic is very haphazard and unpredictable in that area.
/-justin@****.mcp.com----------------------jbell@****.mcp.com--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:12:16 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Just look at the two styles of spell/focus/ally/whatever designs.
> Hermetics use complex mathematical formula, while shamans use a
> sandpainting, or a sculpture or a song or something else.
Well put.
And that is what I think the original intent of the question was.
I almost never play mages, because IMO the reduction of magic to a science
lacks the mystical feel that I really enjoy.
Shamans OTOH are loads of fun to play.
SR3 should stress the "color" differences betweem the traditions more than
it has so far IMO.
Explain more about the rituals of the hermetics (Some of you Talon stuff
would be great for this Steve. What was the name of that one SFTS story
where you had Talon making offerings to the elements? Maybe I'm
misremembering, but the whole bit about bowing to the east, west, north and
south actually made a mage feel "mystical" IMO)
Go back over shamans and explain about the shamanic mask that covers their
features when they cast a powerful spell. Let us know if a shaman can
actually, directly communicate with his totem like Sam Verner did in the
novels. Show us the different ways in which they intiiate/summon
allies/whatever.
It's not enough to say that "shamanic rituals can make frat keggers looks
tame in comparison" I want to see a stoned out coyote shaman smoking a
peace pipe in a sweat lodge, while eating handfuls of magic mushrooms.
Give us GM's more guidelines for making the shaman players stay within
totemic boundaries.
Just saying that the shaman can lose his magic if he does not act in
accordance with his totem is not enough, give detailed examples of proper
behavior for each totem.
This type of stuff will IMO go a looong way toward making magic more
mystical.
Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"I will ride the walrus. I will poke the invisible flowers. I have always
known how."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:17:41 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970707130704.007b0220@***.iquest.net> from
"Jaymz" at
Jul 7, 97 01:07:04 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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|I don't have my cal free book around, but there's some sort of screwy stuff
|in place due to the "magical pranks" UCLA and (Berkley?) sorry, don't know
|caliornia very well.
|
|Using magic is very haphazard and unpredictable in that area.
Ahhhh...
I doubt it's got a damaging background count....
Not even the Nazi concentration camps have damaging ones....
The place where the ....
Ooops.... <Spoilers>
That should be enough....
... bomb went off in Chi-town has a VERY high count, IIRC.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:16:54 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Physical Adpets, what do you play?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:41 PM 7/7/97 -0500, William Monroe Ashe whispered:
>Note: the body morph power could be abused very easily. I could see an
>assassin with it being very hard to stop. My GM gave the power a very
>serious drawback in that it caused my character to have a very "weird"
>and distinctive aura that was immediately noticeable.
Well, it wasn't immediately noticeable, and the astrally projecting
character did state that he was going to scope your character out, and did
get a fair amount of successes on his perception...
By the by, the Body Morph power (probably called Chameleon or Morph many
moons ago on this list) did work out pretty well in game play. Not sure if
it's an idea being thought about for SR3.
-Thomas Deeny
Your Guide to Shadowrun -- http://shadowrun.miningco.com -- updated every
Wednesday!
Thomas's World is http://telltale.hart.org -- come visit!
One Line Movie Review:
"Face/Off -- Want to waste two and a half hours of your life?"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:21:52 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Barrier spells
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 13:36:59 -0500 (EST)"
<009B6E63.4EFBE3A0.66@******.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
You wrote:
> hello all,
> a question about barrier spells. a mage throws up a barrier spell and
> is attacked by physical means (guns, arrows, whatever). does the barrier
> degrade as a actual barrier upon being struck by something powerful, or not?
Don't see why it shouldn't. The rules don't call for an exception.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:20:23 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Physical Adpets, what do you play?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970707131653.00728b3c@***>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>By the by, the Body Morph power (probably called Chameleon or Morph many
>moons ago on this list) did work out pretty well in game play. Not sure if
>it's an idea being thought about for SR3.
does anybody by chance have the info for this ability?
/-justin@****.mcp.com----------------------jbell@****.mcp.com--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:06:35 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject: Re: [Admin] Bi-weekly Posting Guidelines.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:58 PM 7/6/97 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>Adam J said on 10:57/ 5 Jul 97...
>
>> On Friday July 4th Gurth Said:
>> >My real name is Bob. Bob Smith.
>> >So now you know.
>>
>> Wow that a really cool name there Bob!
>>
>> -Adam
>
>Hey! What did I tell you about mentioning my name where any idiot can read
>it?!
>
>:)
Hey, I take offense to this, Gurth. I'm not any idiot. I'm a very
specific kind of idiot. You don't find idiots like me just laying on the
ground, ya know. You've got to search for them.
This reminds me of something (the posting guidelines, not the idiot bit)
Is the FAQ being sent out to ppl who join yet? Or on some kind of regular
basis? I've gotten it once or twice since joining, but I can never quite
figure out why it was being sent or how often. I didn't get it when I
re-joined, that I'm sure of. I was just thinking that the FAQ would be
helpful as well as the posting guidelines.
Rasputin-the-trying-to-get-into-an-Sr-book-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
"An object at rest cannot be stopped" - The Mad Midnight Bomber Who Bombs
at Midnight
But his boss calls him: Mike Broadwater
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:25:15 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 10:01:28 -0700"
<199707071729.NAA15522@********.mcit.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
You wrote:
> If you were to shoot someone today with a 9mm round
> from a pistol, and that person was wearing a vest, the would probab;y not
> take any damage other thatn bruises or a cracked rib. I can see weapons
> progressing as time passed, but wouldn't armor due the same? Finally we
> wanted to bring machine pistols to a point that they made sense, and SMG's
> were useful as well. With all the burst capable HP's out there now SMG's
> were falling by the wayside.
This all dows derive from the idea of a 9mm pistol being a Heavy Pistol, but
I'll agree that assault rifles should have better penetration than pistols.
However, if the burst-fire HPs were a problem, why allow them? They're
basically high-calibre SMGs if they can burst-fire, as the Uzi III can only
burst-fire. Sure they have a smaller clip, but that's partly due just to the
size of the rounds...
And if the 9mm is a heavy pistol, why aren't there some bigger guns (aside from
the Ruger)? What about cannons like the Desert Eagle (which is what I always
thought the Ares Predator and Browning Max-power were, thus their original
small clip size in first ed.).
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:30:14 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: What's up with UCLA and Berkley??? [Was SR/ED Ties...]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Berkley and UCLA, continuing that long outstanding tradition of
intercolligiate pranks, began indulging in a massive series of magical
practical jokes over the years [water elementals exploding toilets,
igniting student's underware, astral 'panty raids', etc.], that they
actually disrupted the astral space between the two locations, resulting
in areas that cause power fluctuations in spells , with attendant drain
fluctuations [your Force 3 Powerball overloads into a Force 6, doing
twice the damage, and socking the user with the resulting drain! Or that
Force 6 going off as a Force 1, tickling your opponent!], astral shoals
and brambles [think coral reefs], and an increase in astrally active
critters!
It's a great place to catch mages unawares, as you're never sure
what's going to happen. And the students at both colleges are STILL
going at it!
Kohl, 'I was attacked by a flying roll of toilet paper, and had to shoot
my way out. :-]'
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:30:26 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 10:36:04 -0700"
<199707071748.NAA10788@********.mcit.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
You wrote:
> The round is smaller yes, but the bullet penatrates more effectively,
> because of the velocity. In SR assault rifles, smg's, and HP's all do the
> same damage...moderate. But apparently HP's penetrate barriers better. In
> RL that is just not the case. A .44 will penetrate sure, but an assault
> rifle can do it as well with a smaller round.
Assault rifle, yes, and the HPs and ARs are comparable (9M vs. 8M), if you're
really bothered by it, give the assault rifles a bit more or drop the HPs by 1.
That's what I would do anyway.
> You have to consider however that the defender needs more successes than
> the attacker, and that in alot of cases will roll fewer dice.
With Combat Pool and no limit to dice to resist damage? Nah. More dice, not
less. Unless the attacker really poured dice into the shot, and if they both
use as many dice as they can, the defender, with no no-more-than-your-
skill-in-combat-pool limit gets to use more dice to resist.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:55:43 -0800
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: david lowe <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Re: What's up with UCLA and Berkley??? [Was SR/ED Ties...]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 2:30 PM 7/7/97, Fisher, Victor wrote:
> Berkley and UCLA, continuing that long outstanding tradition of
>intercolligiate pranks, began indulging in a massive series of magical
>practical jokes over the years [water elementals exploding toilets,
>igniting student's underware, astral 'panty raids', etc.]
<Snippage>
Not to be the nit-picky Californian on the list, but Berkeley and UCLA are
about 350 miles apart and have had little or no traditional rivalry. UCLA
and USC, or Berkeley and Stanford, that's a different story. But then
again, I doubt anyone really wants to hear my "why the Cal-Free sourcebook
sucked" rant again.
D.
David R. Lowe (dlowe@****.com)
Photography/Graphic Design
"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:46:09 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
---David Buehrer wrote:
>
> I don't have the rules handy, does it actually say that the recovery
> costs are multiplied also? Cuz that doesn't make sense to me.
SSC, page 99:
"Doctor's fees and hospitalization are 50 times he rates listed on
page 145 of the Shadowrun basic rules. You cannot have the work done
at a clinic and then transfer to a cheaper place for recuperation."
Cybertechnology, page 44:
"For alpha- and beta grade cybersurgery, doctor's fees and
hospitalization are 50 times the rates listed on p. 145 of the
Shadowrun basic rules. For deltagrade cybersurgery, the fees are 200
times the rates listed."
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:43:27 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 13:51:15 -0500 (EST)"
<199707071758.AA18697@********.compuware.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
You wrote:
> I would really like to see some big changes in the way a characters
> attributes and skills are handled. I have only one problem with the
> current system and that is THE SKILL WEB. The skill web is just
> really a relic of the first edition that should have been eradicated
> in the second. If you remove the skill web concept from the game
> though alot of things have to be revamped. I would like to see a
> skill+attribute based system, which might make dice pools obsolete
> also.
Two problems with this: 1) it starts turning SR into The Storyteller system,
which grew out of SR in the first place, 2) Enormous numbers of dice you can
get with high atttributes and skills in the right places. Taking ST as an
example, Dex of 4-5, firearms of 4, you see 8-9 dice in an attack. Do you want
to see this in SR? Sounds pretty nasty to me. It's *possible* to get 10 dice
on a roll in ST if you're being munchy. Of course that's your full dice pool
for the round, no extra dice pools to dodge with... It's just that that many
dice in an attack is too much, imo. It would require a *major* revamp of the
SR rules to do attr+skill, it would change the game completely, a much bigger
change than happened from 1st to 2nd ed. I too like attr+skill better than
SR's way of handling it, but it's too ingrained in the system now.
The skill web just makes things to annoying, I hate counting
> dots. Having an firearms skill and and then only getting a +2 when
> using a vehicle mounted weapon or a guy with only ettiquette only
> getting a +2 for negotation or interogation rolls.
Well, the thing is, players could do it for the GM rather than forcing him to
do it, and it's not even used that much that I've seen, usually you pass 2 dots
and take a +4, or more.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:52:57 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
In-Reply-To: <199707071803.MAA13415@******> from "Shawn McCollum" at Jul
7,
97 01:51:15 pm
Content-Type: text
Shawn McCollum wrote:
|
| though alot of things have to be revamped. I would like to see a
| skill+attribute based system, which might make dice pools obsolete
| also. The skill web just makes things to annoying, I hate counting
Ditto on making a skill-attribute system (skill+attribute/2). Heck,
you could do it now if you wanted to (as a house rule), figuring out
what the closest attribute is on the skill web and linking the skill
to that. Those skills that are way out on the skill web (more than 2
dots from an attribute) could be "solo" skills (they aren't averaged
with any attribute). And if someone doesn't have the skill they roll
half their attribute at +2. If it's a "solo" skill it can't be
attempted at all. Anyway, I'd like to see something like that.
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Observe your co-worker's interaction with the computer mouse. If he
is using it to manipulate the cursor, he's human. If he's using it
as a foot pedal, he's your boss.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:55:47 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
In-Reply-To: <199707071848.MAA15969@******> from "Loki" at Jul 7,
97 11:46:09 am
Content-Type: text
Loki wrote:
|
| ---David Buehrer wrote:
| >
| > I don't have the rules handy, does it actually say that the recovery
| > costs are multiplied also? Cuz that doesn't make sense to me.
|
| SSC, page 99:
| "Doctor's fees and hospitalization are 50 times he rates listed on
| page 145 of the Shadowrun basic rules. You cannot have the work done
| at a clinic and then transfer to a cheaper place for recuperation."
|
| Cybertechnology, page 44:
| "For alpha- and beta grade cybersurgery, doctor's fees and
| hospitalization are 50 times the rates listed on p. 145 of the
| Shadowrun basic rules. For deltagrade cybersurgery, the fees are 200
| times the rates listed."
Thanks Loki.
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Observe your co-worker's interaction with the computer mouse. If he
is using it to manipulate the cursor, he's human. If he's using it
as a foot pedal, he's your boss.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:55:52 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: What's up with UCLA and Berkley??? [Was SR/ED Ties...]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I wrote:
> Berkley and UCLA, continuing that long outstanding tradition of
>intercolligiate pranks, began indulging in a massive series of magical
>practical jokes over the years [water elementals exploding toilets, igniting
>student's underware, astral 'panty raids', etc.]
>
><Snippage>
>
>David Lowe wrote:
>Not to be the nit-picky Californian on the list, but Berkeley and UCLA are
>about 350 miles apart and have had little or no traditional rivalry. UCLA and
>USC, or Berkeley and Stanford, that's a different story. But then again, I
>doubt anyone really wants to hear my "why the Cal-Free sourcebook sucked"
>rant again.
>
>Victor writes:
> Sorry, David. Just repeating what the book says. I personally like the
>idea of the 'Astral Bramble' area, but I can't understand your disagreement
>with the two colleges in question. Maybe if the writers'd done their
>research, and picked two colleges closer together and with more of a history?
>
>'It's sh*t like this, Vincent, that's gonna bring this situation to a head!'
>
>Victor
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:53:25 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 14:12:16 -0400"
<199707071806.OAA19270@***.ncweb.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
You wrote:
> Go back over shamans and explain about the shamanic mask that covers their
> features when they cast a powerful spell.
Thought it was pretty clearly explained myself, and I've played several shamans
over the years.
Let us know if a shaman can
> actually, directly communicate with his totem like Sam Verner did in the
> novels. Show us the different ways in which they intiiate/summon
> allies/whatever.
Some examples would be good, but it's also an area where the GM and player can
have a lot of fun being creative, and laying down specific 'this is how it's
done' isn't a good idea.
> It's not enough to say that "shamanic rituals can make frat keggers looks
> tame in comparison" I want to see a stoned out coyote shaman smoking a
> peace pipe in a sweat lodge, while eating handfuls of magic mushrooms.
Um, I think I can use my imagination for this, the basic rulesbook doesn't need
to go in detail into this, any more than it goes into deep detail on what
sammies do in 'off-hours'.
> Give us GM's more guidelines for making the shaman players stay within
> totemic boundaries.
> Just saying that the shaman can lose his magic if he does not act in
> accordance with his totem is not enough, give detailed examples of proper
> behavior for each totem.
Again, I think the preferences for this vary from group to group too much for
guidelines to be really useful. Totems are vague, they encompass the entirety
of the idea of an animal or natural element, no hard-and-fast rules. An
example or two, again, might help here.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:59:02 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
In-Reply-To: <199707071747.LAA12218@******> from "Caric" at Jul 7,
97 10:19:01 am
Content-Type: text
Caric wrote:
|
| | Just one thing: Caric would be veeeeery stupid if he had learnt the
| | spell at level 4. Why not at level 6? costs just 2 spell points
| | more, while it makes the spell really deadly. This was a problem in
| | my group: every single combat spell was at level 6, and there was no
| | thing that could have been done about it.
| | Combat spells only make sense at level 6.
|
| 3) A lower force spell is not as easy to detect when cast.
And that's one that I keep forgetting about as a GM, but am making it
a point to enforce more frequently. "I chuck a Force 6 ManaBolt."
"Congradulations, you've just drawn the fire of every other security
guard, as they shout `Mage behind the dumpster!'."
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Observe your co-worker's interaction with the computer mouse. If he
is using it to manipulate the cursor, he's human. If he's using it
as a foot pedal, he's your boss.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:02:34 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: What's up with UCLA and Berkley??? [Oops, I made a booboo...]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I should have typed '...but I CAN understand your dissagreement
with the two colleges in question', NOT can't. Sorry.
Victor
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:03:21 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
---Justin Pinnow wrote:
>
> Here's another suggestion. How about you use the standard magical
misfire
> rules (basing it on the force of the spell), BUT when casting a
spell you
> make an extra wound modified (4) test with your sorcery skill. Every
> success earned offsets one 1 rolled while casting the spell. This
does
> NOT, however, apply to rolling all 1's. That is a botch, and can
only be
> avoided with karma, per the normal rules. Of course, there is no
need for
> making this extra test unless you are going to misfire with the way
the
> dice rolled. If you don't roll enough 1's to misfire, just don't
make this
> test. This test is an attempt to hold the magic together in the
form of
> the spell being cast, while it is trying to come apart at the seams.
I
> allows for knowledge of magic to offset some of the hazards of
stuffing too
> much mana into too small of a base spell. Comments?
It's an idea. However, I'm a firm believer in K.I.S.S. and don't like
adding extra die rolls and math to the system unless deemed absolutely
necessary. Plus, it doesn't tie in with the other skill rolls where a
player rolls the dice and counts how many 1's he got...is it >= your
skill? Yes? Well you just botched it!
Something like you're suggesting actually offers a mage two chances to
avoid an opps in spell casting: first they have to roll the 1's on the
Spell casting in the first place. Then is they do get a number of 1's,
they get a second roll to offest those. A sammy, rigger or decker
doesn't get to roll some theory or other type of skill to offest their
1's rolled in firearms, car or computer.
===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:06:41 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Barrier spells
In-Reply-To: <199707071738.LAA11789@******> from "VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP
PRONE" at Jul 7, 97 01:36:59 pm
Content-Type: text
VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PRONE wrote:
|
| hello all,
| a question about barrier spells. a mage throws up a barrier spell and
| is attacked by physical means (guns, arrows, whatever). does the barrier
| degrade as a actual barrier upon being struck by something powerful, or not?
You've stumbled onto one of the "Great Debates". Take the easy way
out and do it however you want :) A couple of options are:
Barrier Spells do degrade as per the rules, disappating when they're
reduced to zero.
Ditto, but they refresh on the caster's next action (assuming he's
sustaining it, if it's quickened at the end of the combat turn).
Ditto, but they refresh at the end of the phase.
Barrier Spells don't degrade.
Have Fun, Buy Shadowrun Products (or is that the other way around?),
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Observe your co-worker's interaction with the computer mouse. If he
is using it to manipulate the cursor, he's human. If he's using it
as a foot pedal, he's your boss.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:10:39 -0800
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 18:39 7/6/97 EST, VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PRONE wrote:
> i believe that tir tairngire is the
><meta>physical location of city of spires, and the elves that lived there
(such
>as harly) did not and will not sprout thorns.
The City of Spires was somewhere north of the Blood Wood, which is north of
the Black Sea in Eurasia. It *does* seem that Tir Tairngire has roots in
the Blood Wood, and Tir na nOg has roots in the elven culture from before
the Ritual of Thorns.
--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:24:44 -0800
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: david lowe <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Re: What's up with UCLA and Berkley??? [Was SR/ED Ties...]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 2:55 PM 7/7/97, Fisher, Victor wrote:
>>Victor writes:
>> Sorry, David. Just repeating what the book says. I personally like the
>>idea of the 'Astral Bramble' area, but I can't understand your disagreement
>>with the two colleges in question. Maybe if the writers'd done their
>>research, and picked two colleges closer together and with more of a history?
IHMO research and the Cal-Free Sourcebook had little in common...
D.
David R. Lowe (dlowe@****.com)
Photography/Graphic Design
"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:16:51 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
> Date: Monday, July 07, 1997 3:03 PM
<Snip>
> It's an idea. However, I'm a firm believer in K.I.S.S. and don't like
> adding extra die rolls and math to the system unless deemed absolutely
> necessary. Plus, it doesn't tie in with the other skill rolls where a
> player rolls the dice and counts how many 1's he got...is it >= your
> skill? Yes? Well you just botched it!
I know, I prefer KISS too. But I haven't found a way to implement the rule
of 1 without it going overboard and not allowing skilled mages to cast low
level spells without a ton of worries about misfiring.
> Something like you're suggesting actually offers a mage two chances to
> avoid an opps in spell casting: first they have to roll the 1's on the
> Spell casting in the first place. Then is they do get a number of 1's,
> they get a second roll to offest those. A sammy, rigger or decker
> doesn't get to roll some theory or other type of skill to offest their
> 1's rolled in firearms, car or computer.
Um, actually, I believe you have missed something. I stated that this new
roll only applies to magical misfires that aren't botches. Botches can't
be avoided without the use of karma...regardless of what type of a botch it
is. Keep in mind that a magical misfire isn't necessarily a botch...just a
number of 1's rolled equal to the base force of the spell or the skill
being rolled. Therefore, not all the dice have to come up as 1's to
misfire....therefore, most misfires aren't botches. This makes it too
harsh on skilled magicians, thus the extra rule. After all, the magical
misfire rules add to the amount of bookkeeping necessary anyway. If you
choose to implement them into your game, you should make sure they are
balanced. The way they are in the companion, a skilled mage can cast a
force 1 or 2 spell and misfire it quite often. Not very realistic.
> ===
>
> @>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Justin :)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:18:17 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Physical Adpets, what do you play?
In-Reply-To: <199707070130.TAA20903@******> from "Jaymz" at Jul 6,
97 08:25:48 pm
Content-Type: text
Jaymz wrote:
|
| What sort of characters do you play when playing a PA?
The Troll/Martial Artist PA :):) I've also seen the Thief PA (Astral
Perception, Extra Stealth dice, Enhanced Reaction).
| They never will be anywhere near as powerful as a sammy, right?
It would be more accurate to say that a PA will never fill a Sammy's
role. The opposite is also true.
| What are the advantages of playing one in SRII?
Good magic defense (especially when initiated) and good close combat
abilities. More accepted than Sams and Mages (everyone loves Bruce Lee).
| The last time I really played was SRI, where Adpets seemed to be more
| powerful.
Oh yeah, SRI PAs were Munchkin Magnets (no offense). They're a gentler,
kinder people now. Also, keep in mind that they're priority B.
| I know this is probably an old subject, but pointers to relative texts
| would be extremely helpful.
The BBB, Grimmy II, and Awakenings. There's also some stuff on Paolo's web
site (there's an easy to find link to his page from mine :)
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Observe your co-worker's interaction with the computer mouse. If he
is using it to manipulate the cursor, he's human. If he's using it
as a foot pedal, he's your boss.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:41:24 -0800
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 08:43 7/7/97 -0400, Steve Kenson wrote:
>One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more of a
>mystical/magical feel to it than it does now." I'm curious about the idea,
>since I don't quite understand it. Since SR magic is currently (IMHO) based
>on about 80% real-world magic theory and 20% fantasy magic (fireballs and
>such) it feels pretty "mystical" to me. I'd like some feedback on the issue.
>Is SR magic "magical" enough? If not, how could it be better?
I'd say it's closer to 30% magic theory and 70% fantasy gaming, personally.
(I'm a long-time Ars Magica player, and Shadowrun elides a *lot* of the
nitty gritty of magic.)
Astral quests are an excellent part of the system; you might want to clarify
for 3rd Ed where your karma pool refreshes during a quest. (We play that
it refreshes each time you get to a new test, and still have serious trouble
getting Great Form spirits of any respectable size.) They're one of the
most fun parts of the SR system, IMO, because they let you change genre
when you're in the mood for a different setting without requiring people to
create new characters, learn new game systems, etc.
The mystical side of life for hermetic mages seems under-represented.
There's plenty of material about shamans and their totems, but not a lot
about being a practicing hermetic mage.
Centering is one of the least magical things about being an Initiate.
The idea is excellent-- you have a particular focusing skill you use to
get into that magical frame of mind-- but if you look at the timescale
of the game, it just doesn't make sense that you'd have any time to actually
*use* the skill in combat. (Let's say your Centering skill is chanting in
Latin. Each word you chant drops your initiative number by 1, since this
isn't Champions and soliloquies aren't free. How many words do you need
to chant to get in the right frame of mind?) That would be good to clarify.
If you want to make things more magical, I'd suggest adding more ritual to
the system. Currently, spells are something you can dash off in an instant.
Try expanding the definition of the expendable fetish to include a ritual
instead of some pre-prepared packet of something, so you have magicians
drawing circles on the ground with not-terribly-mystical chalk instead of
having to buy things from a talismonger. (Though there should be more
examples of fetishes-- you might introduce the notion that every spellcaster
has to pick an appropriate fetish for their particular spells, and force
the players of magicians to come up with ideas when they learn spells.)
Other things that make things more magical are adding links to myth and
symbol,
but that's really tricky. Ars Magica makes it easy because you're *in*
the world of folktales; Shadowrun is very much about having the truth
*behind* the folktales UGE'ing into existence and chewing the bumper
off your car. Coming up with problems that are better solved through
magical thinking-- involving aesthetics, symbols, correspondences-- rather
than mechanical thinking could do that, but that's not easy to do.
Introducing some critter and/or spirit powers that are based in such thinking,
with corresponding weaknesses, would be a good way of doing it, as would
introducing such patterns in the spell design system, if you can figure
out a way to make them plausible. (I can't think of anything off the top
of my head, but it's hard for me to get into that frame of mind on a moment's
notice.)
One mechanic that I've been toying with recently is divination. (I stole
this from someone else's fantasy game that I heard about years ago.) If
a PC who is magically active wants to perform divination, have them pick
a method that the GM knows about. (This is a good thing to prearrange at
character creation time.) The character rolls their Magic rating against
a target number known only to the GM, then the GM goes away for a bit,
lays out the tarot cards/rune stones/I Ching coins, and brings them back
for the player to interpret. This ignores the notion that the character
might have more skill in interpreting the reading than the player, but
it makes for much more fun than AD&D "weal or woe?" auguries.
--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:01:12 +0000
Reply-To: hardware@*******.ab.ca
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <hardware@*******.datanet.ab.ca>
From: Shane Courtrille <hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Barrier Rating Rules part 1
In-Reply-To: <199707071309.PAA06136@**********.xs4all.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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> Example A1: Carmen aims her Ares Predator at BlackFire, who's behind an
> armored glass wall (Barrier Rating 4). The Predator does 9M damage, and
> Carmen has loaded it with regular rounds. From the table, the Damage
> Barrier Rating against regular ammo is equal to the Barrier Rating x 2,
> which makes it 8 in this case. The Power Level of 9 exceeds this, so the
> Barrier Rating is reduced by 1 (to 3) and a 50 cm diameter hole is made in
> the glass.
>
Does this modify the power of the actual bullet in anyway or does it
keep on going? (could be shes shooting into a nuclear reactor control
room *shrug*) ;)
Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca
Being in love... What a trip...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:29:54 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
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| It turned out that he got torked then his buddy got torked, then onto
| harrassment again with finally his buddy telling me to F-off. Hopefully
now
| theyre gone for good. Sorry for going off on you and a couple of others
in
| this debate though I've had a lousy week. But on the bright side I just
| turned 24 as of 25 minutes ago.
Happy Birthday Nightlife...if you make it to the con I owe you a drink.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:36:59 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain NO officially [OT]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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| > >And again, Nightlife, sorry if I offended.
| >
| > It's time for a group hug everybody. ;-)
| If you say so <Raven goes around and hugs Nightlife, MC23, Bull,
| Gurth, Steven and all the others>
| Think that's enough ;)
<Caric wipes away a tear>
I love you guys.
<much gasping as I try to not lose it again>
:)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:09:56 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: All-ones rule and spells
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
---Justin Pinnow wrote:
>
> I know, I prefer KISS too. But I haven't found a way to implement
the rule
> of 1 without it going overboard and not allowing skilled mages to
cast low
> level spells without a ton of worries about misfiring.
Exactly. Which is why I came to the list on this question after it
came up in our game. I think what I suggested before on basing it off
the Sorcery skill, but allowing all 1's to take precedence, will prove
to be a healthy compromise in our game.
<snip>
> Um, actually, I believe you have missed something. I stated that
this new
> roll only applies to magical misfires that aren't botches. Botches
can't
> be avoided without the use of karma...regardless of what type of a
botch it
> is. Keep in mind that a magical misfire isn't necessarily a
botch...just a
> number of 1's rolled equal to the base force of the spell or the
skill
> being rolled. Therefore, not all the dice have to come up as 1's to
> misfire....therefore, most misfires aren't botches. This makes it
too
> harsh on skilled magicians, thus the extra rule. After all, the
magical
> misfire rules add to the amount of bookkeeping necessary anyway. If
you
> choose to implement them into your game, you should make sure they
are
> balanced. The way they are in the companion, a skilled mage can
cast a
> force 1 or 2 spell and misfire it quite often. Not very realistic.
OK, I see where you're coming from on this now. We don't use the
misfire rules from SRC, so what you'd suggested didn't tie directly
into how we're playing things. We're just going off the sugested rules
in FoF where 1's equal to or greater than the skill being used is a
botch. Then a botch is a botch, no misfires or other levels just one
big Oops!
Thanx for the input though. :o)
===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:35:00 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: introduction
MIME-Version: 1.0
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| Gabriel is a player in my campaign, so I guess I'll have to be careful
| about what I say on the list now...
Uh oh...Gabriel just so you know Bull and I have started a support group
for players with evil GM's...we meet every Thursday. You're the new guy so
you have to bring the cookies. :)
| > "Uhuhu, I'm all shook up @:-)"
| In case anyone's wondering, this somewhat strange behavior is due to
David
| Lowe's Elvis adventure, which I ran recently... Very funny :)
Ooooo...our first play test of that particular gem...it went well it seems.
Any juice details?
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:24:37 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
---"Bruce H. Nagel" wrote:
>
> Assault rifle, yes, and the HPs and ARs are comparable (9M vs. 8M),
if you're
> really bothered by it, give the assault rifles a bit more or drop
the HPs by 1.
> That's what I would do anyway.
As a GM I'm usually against raising somethings power to solve an
issue, I'd much rather decrease a different area to bring about
balance.
As you suggest, we did drop the HP power level. We just cut it the
base down to 6M since dropping it by 1 or 2 had it equal to an Assault
Rifle or SMG and that's what wasn't making sense to us. Also as Caric
has said, Machine Pistols were making no sense to us. On burst the
were doing the same as a heavy pistol, but with recoil and a base
round of 6L v.s. 9m when figuring penetration against barriers and the
like. Why would anyone chose the MP over the HP? Now, with a HP doing
6M and an MP doing 9M on burst, there's a reason someone may chose one
over the other.
> > You have to consider however that the defender needs more
successes than
> > the attacker, and that in alot of cases will roll fewer dice.
> With Combat Pool and no limit to dice to resist damage? Nah. More
dice, not
> less. Unless the attacker really poured dice into the shot, and if
they both
> use as many dice as they can, the defender, with no
no-more-than-your-
> skill-in-combat-pool limit gets to use more dice to resist.
Keep in mind, most of the opposition he's referring to are NPC's with
threat ratings primarily of 3 and 4. That's not a boatload of dice
being dumped into a damage resistance test from a pool somewhere.
Also, firefights in our games aren't usually your two gunslingers
squared off in an alley one-on-one. My players aren't usually throwing
all 7, 8 or 9 combat pool dice into damage resistance. They usually
have to worry if another one or two of the guards might be taking a
shot at them before their next action, or if they should throw a few
pool dice into their shot to drop a goon before he has a chance to go.
Very rarely are all or even most of a pool being dumped into damage
resistance.
All in all, keep in mind this thread is blatantly a "this is how it is
in our game, your game may be different" issue. :o)
===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:24:54 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
MIME-Version: 1.0
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| OK, I'm getting some good feedback. Here's Survey Question #3...
Uh oh...my inbox hasn't quite recovered from the last one. :)
| One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more
of a
| mystical/magical feel to it than it does now." I'm curious about the
idea,
| since I don't quite understand it. Since SR magic is currently (IMHO)
based
| on about 80% real-world magic theory and 20% fantasy magic (fireballs and
| such) it feels pretty "mystical" to me. I'd like some feedback on the
issue.
| Is SR magic "magical" enough? If not, how could it be better?
I have always viewed magic as a very personal thing in SR, in other words
one person may see it as a mystical event putting them in harmony with
nature, and another sees it as a series of mathematical equations. This
leaves room for all of the religious outlooks and different types of
"shamanism" (including druids and the like). I always felt that the Mojo
was as mystical as the guy who released it.
| The one caveat I will have to put in is please, please don't tell me "the
| magic system should be more like Ars Magica, or Mage, or Earthdawn..." or
any
| other role-playing game. The basic concepts of SR magic aren't going to
| change, but we might be able to fix some of the "feel" of it.
Maybe just add some more archtypes or examples of different magical
outlooks. I think that descriptions of medicaine lodges and circles aren't
necessary as a fixed type, SR has always been good about letting the
magician color his magic how he wants. Maybe just throw in some examples
to stir the creative juices.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:30:14 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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| Simple. Verji's a Munchie. Isn't it obvious?
Of Course!!!!!
| -=SwiftOne=-
|
| (I should know better than to post my Fixers bit after SR3....no one
| will notice it. :( Also: SR3: The Big Red. Count on it.)
Don't worry Swifty i'm getting there honest. I prefer The Big "Woodchuck
White" Book
:)
OUCH!!!! (pre-twap/flame response)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:37:11 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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| > | Nightlife I have come to the conclusion that if you don't like magic
| > | in your game, play CP2020. It doesn't have any.
| >
| > I think was kind of a cheap shot and unnecessary. NIghtlife has never
even
| > hinted that he wanted to do away with magic, just that he feels the
normal
| > "default" drain is too light. Lets try to keep it friendly, we're
better
| > than that.
|
| Your right, and you should read all your mail before replying, as
| this thread ended this weekend with apologies all around.
I read that after I had already sent this (I had 549 messages waiting this
morning ewww) Sorry about that.
Am I too late for the group hug?
:)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:03:46 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@*CUNIX.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magical drain
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
>For some reason this made me laugh really hard. :)
>I can just see a man dressed in black coming to Nightlife and they would be
>calling each other "Patriot," and such. Sorry the loyalist part just got
>to me. =)
>
>Proceed.
Well if the CIA everm offered me a black suit, shades ,and the tie I'd take
them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:56:58 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tkerby@***01.ny.us.ibm.net>
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain
In-Reply-To: <199707072049.PAA20920@********.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On 7 Jul 97 at 13:37, Caric wrote:
> I read that after I had already sent this (I had 549 messages waiting this
> morning ewww) Sorry about that.
A very busy weekend indeed.
> Am I too late for the group hug?
We'll just have another one! :)
--
=DREKHEAD========================================================
drekhead@***.net --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html ---
=================================================================
=================================================================
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot
stomping on a human face...forever. -George Orwell
=================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:46:15 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
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Losthalo Wrote:
| > If you were to shoot someone today with a 9mm round
| > from a pistol, and that person was wearing a vest, the would probab;y
not
| > take any damage other thatn bruises or a cracked rib. I can see
weapons
| > progressing as time passed, but wouldn't armor due the same? Finally
we
| > wanted to bring machine pistols to a point that they made sense, and
SMG's
| > were useful as well. With all the burst capable HP's out there now
SMG's
| > were falling by the wayside.
| This all dows derive from the idea of a 9mm pistol being a Heavy Pistol,
but
| I'll agree that assault rifles should have better penetration than
pistols.
| However, if the burst-fire HPs were a problem, why allow them? They're
| basically high-calibre SMGs if they can burst-fire, as the Uzi III can
only
| burst-fire. Sure they have a smaller clip, but that's partly due just to
the
| size of the rounds...
|
| And if the 9mm is a heavy pistol, why aren't there some bigger guns
(aside from
| the Ruger)? What about cannons like the Desert Eagle (which is what I
always
| thought the Ares Predator and Browning Max-power were, thus their
original
| small clip size in first ed.).
If you want to consider them .50 cal that's fine too, but you have to
assume that the technology of assault rifles and SMG's have developed as
well. They may be using higher calibers and/or more advance loads to make
them keep the same differences from pistols as guns today. We pretty much
consider a 9mm to be the top end of the LP class in our game truthfully,
but a 10mm or a .40 would be the low end of the HP class, if that puts it
into perspective from our standpoint. As far as disallowing the burst fire
capable pistols, we could have done that, but after discussion we felt that
over all heavy pistols needed to be reduced for role=playing and realism.
I just can't see the difference between a light and a heavy pistol being 3
to 5 in power AND a damage catagory...it just doesn't feel right. The 6M
damage feels right and has already made a positive influence on our game.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:56:01 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
In-Reply-To: <199707072049.PAA19971@********.mcit.com> from "Caric" at
Jul 7,
97 01:30:14 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
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|Don't worry Swifty i'm getting there honest. I prefer The Big "Woodchuck
|White" Book
|
|:)
|
|OUCH!!!! (pre-twap/flame response)
Caric, Caric, Caric....
I'm not going to flame you or thwap you......
............ yet...............
I'm going to wait, and then thwap you when you're not ready for it......
<EGMLOL>
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:05:02 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 08:06 AM 7/5/97 GMT, Shadowrun ML demon <shadowrn-ml@*******.HANSE.DE>
wrote:
>Uhm. You are partially right, but there is one major thing you do not
>pay attention to: While Sammies have a split up preference between
>Karma and NuYen the PhysAdsa just need Karma. Sammies can always do a
>run for some company that builds wiz Cyberware and get one of their
>products in reward. There is nothing comparable to this for a PhysAd.
If you have a GM who gives stuff without you having to work for it. Saying
that a sam can get wiz gear and lots of cash just by doing a run or two
isn't any different than a physad who gets karma off a run or two. You
forget that if your GM gives out money and stuff easily, then there's
another one that gives out ton's of karma. And there are plenty who are
right in the middle. My current GM doesn't hand out nuyen and tech, nor
does he hand out karma. Neither would I.
Rasputin-the-trying-to-get-into-an-Sr-book-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/
The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:08:48 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Robert G. Brook" <rgb1@**.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Consolidated Health Spells
In-Reply-To: <199707060131.VAA09575@*********.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, MC23 wrote:
> I have never understood the need for separate spells for healing
> different levels of disease, poison, raise/lower attribute, etc. Why
> would anyone take the lower levels of these spells knowing that they
> might need one of a different level. These should all be unified like
> Heal and Treat were when 2nd edition came out. It just makes more sense
> to do so. They should be 1 spell with different drains for the different
> levels.
I also favor adding success thresholds for the increasing levels. For
example, a light (or +1) spell requires at least 1 success; a medium (or
+2) spell requires at least 2 successes; a serious (or +3) spell requires
at least 3 successes; and, a deadly (or +4) spell requires at least 4
successes. This tends to weaken the heal and treat spells a bit, but I
think that is necessary in my game to prevent the energizer bunny
syndrome.
--Glenn Brook
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:55:46 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
MIME-Version: 1.0
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| You wrote:
| > The round is smaller yes, but the bullet penatrates more effectively,
| > because of the velocity. In SR assault rifles, smg's, and HP's all do
the
| > same damage...moderate. But apparently HP's penetrate barriers better.
In
| > RL that is just not the case. A .44 will penetrate sure, but an
assault
| > rifle can do it as well with a smaller round.
| Assault rifle, yes, and the HPs and ARs are comparable (9M vs. 8M), if
you're
| really bothered by it, give the assault rifles a bit more or drop the HPs
by 1.
| That's what I would do anyway.
That's cool, but that puts the assault rifles the same as HP's when I still
contend that the penetration power is not the same.
| > You have to consider however that the defender needs more successes
than
| > the attacker, and that in alot of cases will roll fewer dice.
| With Combat Pool and no limit to dice to resist damage? Nah. More dice,
not
| less. Unless the attacker really poured dice into the shot, and if they
both
| use as many dice as they can, the defender, with no no-more-than-your-
| skill-in-combat-pool limit gets to use more dice to resist.
And then when the second shot hits?
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:58:24 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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David wrote:
| | 3) A lower force spell is not as easy to detect when cast.
|
| And that's one that I keep forgetting about as a GM, but am making it
| a point to enforce more frequently. "I chuck a Force 6 ManaBolt."
| "Congradulations, you've just drawn the fire of every other security
| guard, as they shout `Mage behind the dumpster!'."
Yup yup yup...wax the mage is still a good street rule...ya never know what
those rascals are gonna do. Sammies are at least marginally predictable.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 17:20:34 -0700
Reply-To: mbreton@**.netcom.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: SR3 & Valid Topics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> >I'd drop the optional metatypes altogether, revamp the Flaws so as to
> >eliminate the hosers (Lightning Reflexes, Magic Invulnerability...)
> Since those are options from the Companion, that's where they should
> stay. This is about the CORE RULES, not what to do to the entire system
> or how to make the book over a thousand pages. Please let's keep ideas
> relavant to what's in the main rule book already and anything else that
> HAS to be in there. If it's in another book, then you should ask yourself
> if there is something wrong with an existing rule where it is at.
> Optional and additional rules are fine where they are at. Anything that
> need to cover or CORRECT the main book should be there. Rules for
> handling Stealth and the expanded Threat ratings are two examples of what
> should be in the book. Metavarients and Edges & Flaws are fine where they
> are at.
That was sent in reply to (?) Bull's comment, who included metatypes and
flaws/edges in consideration. Personally, if any rules got added to
Basic Third, I'd think those rules would be it. It's /not/ going to
bulk the book up at all; it is relevant to the various methods of
character creation. Most people I know use them to a limited degree (in
that some of the Edges are deliberately broken - sigh.)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:36:22 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Duane LaFlotte <DLaFlotte@*******.COM>
Subject: News Server
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I was wondering if there is a news server that is for public use that
would have a shadowrun forum ? if so could I please have this address ?
Thanks
Duane
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:41:06 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: News Server
In-Reply-To:
<c=US%a=_%p=Valinor%l=MHT01-MSX-01-970707213622Z-14601@*******.valinor.com> from
"Duane LaFlotte" at Jul
7, 97 05:36:22 pm
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|
|I was wondering if there is a news server that is for public use that
|would have a shadowrun forum ? if so could I please have this address ?
News SERVER?
Thre is a news GROUP available on most news servers called
rec.games.frp.cyber which deals with shadowrun and cyberpunk (and other
cyber based games)....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:47:53 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Duane LaFlotte <DLaFlotte@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: News Server
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Then only news server that I know is msnews.microsoft.com and they dont
have any rec.games.frp.cyber they are strictly Microsoft stuff. I was
wondering if there was another server that I could connect to that would
be public domain and that would have that rec.games.frp.cyber
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Spike [SMTP:u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK]
>Sent: Monday, July 07, 1997 5:41 PM
>To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
>Subject: Re: News Server
>
>|
>|I was wondering if there is a news server that is for public use that
>|would have a shadowrun forum ? if so could I please have this address ?
>
>News SERVER?
>Thre is a news GROUP available on most news servers called
>rec.games.frp.cyber which deals with shadowrun and cyberpunk (and other
>cyber based games)....
>--
>_____________________________________________________________________________
>_
>|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?"
>|
>|Andrew Halliwell |
>|
>|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control
>|
>|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..."
>|
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+
>|
>|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :(
>|
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:08:06 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
| Caric, Caric, Caric....
|
| I'm not going to flame you or thwap you......
|
|
| ............ yet...............
|
| I'm going to wait, and then thwap you when you're not ready for it......
|
|
| <EGMLOL>
Ya know Spike you're alot like the Spanish Inquisition in that regard.
:)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:54:44 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: News Server
In-Reply-To:
<c=US%a=_%p=Valinor%l=MHT01-MSX-01-970707214753Z-14620@*******.valinor.com> from
"Duane LaFlotte" at Jul
7, 97 05:47:53 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|
|Then only news server that I know is msnews.microsoft.com and they dont
|have any rec.games.frp.cyber they are strictly Microsoft stuff. I was
|wondering if there was another server that I could connect to that would
|be public domain and that would have that rec.games.frp.cyber
Is msnews a public newsserver, or one for employees only?
If it's the former, it SHOULD have all of the rec heirarchy... If it's the
latter, then, ho hum.....
I think any commercial newsserver for public use has access. I just have no
idea HOW to access them. At Keele, accessing the Keele server is automatic.
I tried accessing news.demon.co.uk once by changing an environment variable,
but connection was refused.....
Anyone?
P.S. SNIP OFF THE .SIG!!!!!!!!!!!!
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:53:38 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: mike.paff@*****.COM
Subject: Re: News Server
> I was wondering if there is a news server that is for public use that
> would have a shadowrun forum ? if so could I please have this address ?
If you have a web browser, you can access newsgroups through www.zippo.com
Otherwise, talk to your Internet Service Provider to see if they have a
news server for you to use.
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:55:33 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
In-Reply-To: <199707072120.RAA20027@********.mcit.com> from "Caric" at
Jul 7,
97 02:08:06 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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|Ya know Spike you're alot like the Spanish Inquisition in that regard.
I didn't expect the spanish inquisition......
:) :p
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:00:13 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: News Server
In-Reply-To: <199707072153.OAA29246@*******.> from "mike.paff@*****.COM"
at
Jul 7, 97 02:53:38 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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|
|> I was wondering if there is a news server that is for public use that
|> would have a shadowrun forum ? if so could I please have this address ?
|
|If you have a web browser, you can access newsgroups through www.zippo.com
|Otherwise, talk to your Internet Service Provider to see if they have a
|news server for you to use.
Another usefull web address is www.dejanews.com...
Not only does this hold newsgroups... It also stores about 2 YEARS worth of
past posts to almost every newsgroup you can think of...
(apart from binary ones....)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:03:31 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Duane LaFlotte <DLaFlotte@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: News Server
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Both of you thanks for your help.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: mike.paff@*****.COM [SMTP:mike.paff@*****.COM]
>Sent: Monday, July 07, 1997 5:54 PM
>To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
>Subject: Re: News Server
>
>> I was wondering if there is a news server that is for public use that
>> would have a shadowrun forum ? if so could I please have this address ?
>
>If you have a web browser, you can access newsgroups through www.zippo.com
>Otherwise, talk to your Internet Service Provider to see if they have a
>news server for you to use.
>
>Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:06:55 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: The Spaceman <spaced@*.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: News Server
>>>>> Spike didst say unto the aether thusly:
# I tried accessing news.demon.co.uk once by changing an environment variable,
# but connection was refused.....
# Anyone?
The following website has a list of possible public sites. You may have
to browse a little to find one that works:
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/3959/usenet.html
The Spaceman |Death before dishonor.
spaced@*.washington.edu |Drugs before lunch.
Check out the Bill Page! | - Aspen Drug & Gun Club
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~spaced/bill.html
New maintainer of the Shadowrun Player Directory:
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~spaced/srdir/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:20:38 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 13:46:15 -0700"
<199707072104.QAA28507@********.mcit.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
You wrote:
> If you want to consider them .50 cal that's fine too, but you have to
> assume that the technology of assault rifles and SMG's have developed as
> well. They may be using higher calibers and/or more advance loads to make
> them keep the same differences from pistols as guns today. We pretty much
> consider a 9mm to be the top end of the LP class in our game truthfully,
> but a 10mm or a .40 would be the low end of the HP class, if that puts it
> into perspective from our standpoint.
Now those stats I could agree with.
As far as disallowing the burst fire
> capable pistols, we could have done that, but after discussion we felt that
> over all heavy pistols needed to be reduced for role=playing and realism.
> I just can't see the difference between a light and a heavy pistol being 3
> to 5 in power AND a damage catagory...it just doesn't feel right. The 6M
> damage feels right and has already made a positive influence on our game.
I couldn't agree with you more, I figure the light pistols should be at the
damage category of the SMGs, 6M and 7M. Heavy Pistols might run from 8M (your
.45) to 10M (the gigantic .50 and 11mm magnum rounds). Light pistols in 2nd ed
are a joke, as are hold-outs. SR has this hangup with small guns actually
doing damage, apparently all hold-outs are .22Short and .25, whereas there are
today .44mag and .357mag hold-outs. The streetline special was admittedly
neat in 1st ed because the picture made it small enough to practically pop in
your mouth, but no one was scared of it.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:29:21 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Consolidated Health Spells
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 16:08:48 -0500"
<Pine.SOL.3.96.970707160456.18230A-100000@**.MsState.Edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
You wrote:
> I also favor adding success thresholds for the increasing levels. For
> example, a light (or +1) spell requires at least 1 success; a medium (or
> +2) spell requires at least 2 successes; a serious (or +3) spell requires
> at least 3 successes; and, a deadly (or +4) spell requires at least 4
> successes. This tends to weaken the heal and treat spells a bit, but I
> think that is necessary in my game to prevent the energizer bunny
> syndrome.
That's one thing they did away with in 2nd ed was thresholds for spells, which
might be another nice thing to bring back in 2nd ed...
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:30:40 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 13:55:46 -0700"
<199707072111.QAA01123@********.mcit.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
You wrote:
> That's cool, but that puts the assault rifles the same as HP's when I still
> contend that the penetration power is not the same.
True, but if anything I think assault rifles have been shortchanged in this
regard. Do typical vests stop assault rounds today? Anyone have ideas on
this, more info?
> And then when the second shot hits?
Aye, but the second shot is going to suffer from recoil, higher t#.
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:37:35 -0700
Reply-To: mbreton@**.netcom.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
David Buehrer wrote:
>
> Shawn McCollum wrote:
> |
> | though alot of things have to be revamped. I would like to see a
> | skill+attribute based system, which might make dice pools obsolete
> | also. The skill web just makes things to annoying, I hate counting
>
> Ditto on making a skill-attribute system (skill+attribute/2).
It already exists: it's called Cyberpunk 2020.
If you read the message Steve K posted, they're *not* going to retool
the system. Skill+Att is too large a change to just slip in.
Heck,
> you could do it now if you wanted to (as a house rule), figuring out
> what the closest attribute is on the skill web and linking the skill
> to that. Those skills that are way out on the skill web (more than 2
> dots from an attribute) could be "solo" skills (they aren't averaged
> with any attribute). And if someone doesn't have the skill they roll
> half their attribute at +2. If it's a "solo" skill it can't be
> attempted at all. Anyway, I'd like to see something like that.
I will agree that the Skill Web is mungled and the Companion munged it
further: the idea of defaulting from specialties only resulted in more
abuse, not less. It seems to me that it's also completely against the
grain of what specializations are (I'm good at (foo) and nothing else).
The Skill Web does a pretty good job of allowing for jack-of-all-trades
characters - you simply beef up your atts and get a few central skills -
and that's a distinct advantage Shadowrun offers. No other game (to my
recollection) allows for this. It makes characters a lot more broader
in their skills.
I don't allow defaulting from skills, which solves all the problems in
the games I run. Yes, you've fired a pistol on a target range; you
really think that helps you load a mortar?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:36:07 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 13:24:37 -0700"
<19970707202437.20832.rocketmail@*****.rocketmail.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
You wrote:
> As a GM I'm usually against raising somethings power to solve an
> issue, I'd much rather decrease a different area to bring about
> balance.
True, but I guess I see assault rifles as underpowered as written anyway, and
so don't have a problem raising them. Same goes for light pistols, push them
up to 5M-7M, no problem. Which would also include the machine pistols, giving
them an advantage over heavy pistols in exchange for their greater noise,
illegality (automatic weapons), and still higher concealiability. They both
have a high ammo capacity to keep up with their ROF, too. :)
> As you suggest, we did drop the HP power level. We just cut it the
> base down to 6M since dropping it by 1 or 2 had it equal to an Assault
> Rifle or SMG and that's what wasn't making sense to us. Also as Caric
> has said, Machine Pistols were making no sense to us. On burst the
> were doing the same as a heavy pistol, but with recoil and a base
> round of 6L v.s. 9m when figuring penetration against barriers and the
> like. Why would anyone chose the MP over the HP? Now, with a HP doing
> 6M and an MP doing 9M on burst, there's a reason someone may chose one
> over the other.
Yes, but now all the advantages go to the MPs, except that they're a little
louder on bursts... Why use the heavy pistol, now?
*shrug
losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:36:47 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
| As far as disallowing the burst fire
| > capable pistols, we could have done that, but after discussion we felt
that
| > over all heavy pistols needed to be reduced for role=playing and
realism.
| > I just can't see the difference between a light and a heavy pistol
being 3
| > to 5 in power AND a damage catagory...it just doesn't feel right. The
6M
| > damage feels right and has already made a positive influence on our
game.
| I couldn't agree with you more, I figure the light pistols should be at
the
| damage category of the SMGs, 6M and 7M. Heavy Pistols might run from 8M
(your
| .45) to 10M (the gigantic .50 and 11mm magnum rounds). Light pistols in
2nd ed
| are a joke, as are hold-outs. SR has this hangup with small guns
actually
| doing damage, apparently all hold-outs are .22Short and .25, whereas
there are
| today .44mag and .357mag hold-outs. The streetline special was
admittedly
| neat in 1st ed because the picture made it small enough to practically
pop in
| your mouth, but no one was scared of it.
We would just prefer to adjust heavy pistols down as opposed to light
pistols up, but as it stands in the rules FASA isn't consistent. And
you're right about the hold-out, that's why it's a last resort and you put
flechette rounds in it. Can you say called shot to the face? I thought
you could. :)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:41:12 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
You wrote:
| > That's cool, but that puts the assault rifles the same as HP's when I
still
| > contend that the penetration power is not the same.
| True, but if anything I think assault rifles have been shortchanged in
this
| regard. Do typical vests stop assault rounds today? Anyone have ideas
on
| this, more info?
I doubt that they would fully stop an assault rifle round at close range,
but they would help. The damage is high enough that when a burst is fired
it gets nasty ven with the armor layered.
| > And then when the second shot hits?
|
| Aye, but the second shot is going to suffer from recoil, higher t#.
Nah...i've got the mods. ;)
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:07:09 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: News Server
In-Reply-To: <6196.199707072200@******.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 23:00 7/7/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Another usefull web address is www.dejanews.com...
>
>Not only does this hold newsgroups... It also stores about 2 YEARS worth of
>past posts to almost every newsgroup you can think of...
>
>(apart from binary ones....)
And you don't read the binary groups, right Spike? :)
With only 3 hours a day, I don't even have time to open my newsreader :P
-Adam
--
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@*ndernet \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
"Can I have a cup of angst to go with my un-happy meal?" -- Hi & Lois
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:02:37 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 15:41:12 -0700"
<199707072253.SAA00973@********.mcit.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
You wrote:
> I doubt that they would fully stop an assault rifle round at close range,
> but they would help. The damage is high enough that when a burst is fired
> it gets nasty ven with the armor layered.
Well, what happens in SR is that 8M turns into 3M, which is easy to avoid with
a dodge and some pool dice.
> Nah...i've got the mods. ;)
Well, yeah, muzzle brakes are neat, but they shoot concealability to heck. :(
Where do *you* hide your assault rifle?
losthalo, who hides his in the car, cause it never sees any use anyway. :(
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:11:50 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Angel Ramos y David Fayes <hansa@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Fortune Tellers
In-Reply-To: <199707070123.VAA08166@****.provide.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 09:22 PM 06/07/1997 -0400, Justin wrote:
>[snip]
>Now, I could just say that she is very expensive. That in itself would
>limit access to her. I could even give her an eclectic schedule, so
>finding her when she is in isn't always easy. However, I don't want to cop
>out and just have her charge money. Any ideas on what else she may expect
>for payment besides nu yen?
Why don't FT character ask for some kind of work retribution "I would need
a component for my fortune telling that is only found in..... and I tought
you might be able to pay me getting me some more of this componet". This
way, her customer (a big corp exec) could hire shadowrunners to get this
misterious component.
Hope this spark your imagination a little more
The elven mage
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:57:59 GMT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Shadowrun ML demon <shadowrn-ml@*******.hanse.de>"
<shadowrn-ml@*******.HANSE.DE>
Organization: Nightmare on Coin Street
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM> writes:
> If you have a GM who gives stuff without you having to work for it. Saying
> that a sam can get wiz gear and lots of cash just by doing a run or two
> isn't any different than a physad who gets karma off a run or two. You
> forget that if your GM gives out money and stuff easily, then there's
> another one that gives out ton's of karma. And there are plenty who are
> right in the middle. My current GM doesn't hand out nuyen and tech, nor
> does he hand out karma. Neither would I.
Of course that is true - but if you play a somewhat clever and skilled
group it is extremely easy to make some money (heck - used cyberware,
fetishes, extra data, stollen goods are so easy to acquire and pretty
easy to sell), while you just cannot even make remotely as much
karma. Our GMs tend to be very restrictive on Karma (fortunately we
have a GM at the moment that is not as restrictive as our usual
one)... this means the other characters are developing much faster
than a PA does.
Later,
Georg
- --
Georg C. F. Greve <greve@*******.hanse.de>
http://porter.desy.de/~greve/
"People who fight may lose. People who do not
fight have already lost." -- Bertold Brecht
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:58:47 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: MANA vs PHYSICAL spell
In-Reply-To: <s3bcb6fd.042@****.co.za>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In message <s3bcb6fd.042@****.co.za>, Dion Scher <Dscher@****.CO.ZA>
writes
>Thanks for the reply, but I the responses are missing my question. I'm NOT
>asking whats the advantage of a ManaMissile but what's the DISADVANTAGE of a
>MANAmissile. Why would I bother, as a mage, to learn powermissile when I could
>learn ManaMissile. Statistically speaking, I will have a better chance of
>combatting enemies with ManaMissile. So why bother with PowerMissile?
Because (a) you might want to hurt something with high Willpower but low
Body, or (b) you might want to target something inanimate. ManaMissile
will only damage living targets: Power Missile will also affect doors,
cameras, cars, windows...
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:53:34 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Barrier spells
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
---VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PRONE wrote:
>
> hello all,
> a question about barrier spells. a mage throws up a barrier
spell and
> is attacked by physical means (guns, arrows, whatever). does the
barrier
> degrade as a actual barrier upon being struck by something powerful,
or not?
I know opinions and GM rulings vary greatly on this.
In may game I've said yes, barrier ratings for spells degrade like
their mundane counterparts, the spell winks out of existence when it
reaches zero. However, I can't picture big holes being opened in the
spell, so I rule for every 1/2 meter opening that would be ripped in a
mundane barrier, another point of barrier rating degrades off the
spell.
===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:53:49 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: MANA vs PHYSICAL spell
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
| In message <s3bcb6fd.042@****.co.za>, Dion Scher <Dscher@****.CO.ZA>
| writes
| >Thanks for the reply, but I the responses are missing my question. I'm
NOT
| >asking whats the advantage of a ManaMissile but what's the DISADVANTAGE
of a
| >MANAmissile. Why would I bother, as a mage, to learn powermissile when I
could
| >learn ManaMissile. Statistically speaking, I will have a better chance
of
| >combatting enemies with ManaMissile. So why bother with PowerMissile?
|
| Because (a) you might want to hurt something with high Willpower but low
| Body, or (b) you might want to target something inanimate. ManaMissile
| will only damage living targets: Power Missile will also affect doors,
| cameras, cars, windows...
Also power missile can be sent through a focus while manamissile cannot.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:50:08 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
| You wrote:
| > I doubt that they would fully stop an assault rifle round at close
range,
| > but they would help. The damage is high enough that when a burst is
fired
| > it gets nasty ven with the armor layered.
| Well, what happens in SR is that 8M turns into 3M, which is easy to avoid
with
| a dodge and some pool dice.
That's what full auto is for. :)
| > Nah...i've got the mods. ;)
| Well, yeah, muzzle brakes are neat, but they shoot concealability to
heck. :(
| Where do *you* hide your assault rifle?
Actually I leave it at home, I don't take it anywhere unless the fit is
hitting the shan and then I usually have no need to hide it.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:10:38 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: MANA vs PHYSICAL spell
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
---Dion Scher wrote:
>
> Thanks for the reply, but I the responses are missing my question.
I'm NOT asking whats the advantage of a ManaMissile but what's the
DISADVANTAGE of a MANAmissile. Why would I bother, as a mage, to learn
powermissile when I could learn ManaMissile. Statistically speaking, I
will have a better chance of combatting enemies with ManaMissile. So
why bother with PowerMissile?
---Reply since the message didn't seem to get one--
Power Missile is a physical spell and therefore be targeted on
inanimate objects as well as the living. You can hit vehicles, drones,
security cameras, doors, computers and so on with Power Missile where
you couldn't with it's Mana based brothers.
===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>
Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:15:10 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: shotguns and silencers
In-Reply-To: <970706213139_423842298@*******.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In message <970706213139_423842298@*******.mail.aol.com>, Duncan
McNeill-Burton <Dreadnaut1@***.COM> writes
>Actually, I'm pretty sure you can Gas Vent a shotgun, however, you can't fire
>shot from a Gas Vented shotgun, and only a sound suppressor will keep the
>noise down, and that only works with solid slugs as well.
All you need to do is put the shot in a sabot: a plastic carrier to hold
the shot together in the barrel. Once out of the barrel, air resistance
slows the sabot down faster than the shot and you get the usual
spreading effect.
End result? No shot getting caught in the vent.
The wad would probably do the same job anyway. And since the implication
for most "shot" rounds is that they fall between 000 and #4 shot, they
won't get caught in many gas vents anyway.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:10:28 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: <199707071748.NAA10788@********.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In message <199707071748.NAA10788@********.mcit.com>, Caric
<caric@********.COM> writes
>The round is smaller yes, but the bullet penatrates more effectively,
>because of the velocity. In SR assault rifles, smg's, and HP's all do the
>same damage...moderate. But apparently HP's penetrate barriers better. In
>RL that is just not the case. A .44 will penetrate sure, but an assault
>rifle can do it as well with a smaller round.
An assault rifle will penetrate walls, armour et al that a pistol will
stop dead on. A medium MG or battle rifle (my beloved old L1A1) wil
shoot through anything you see in a routine urban environment.
One of my gripes with SR is the lack of differentiation between assault
rifles and SMGs. On the other hand, "shot with an assault rifle" equals
"automatic long-term hospitalisation" for real life, so that's perhaps
not such a bad thing from a playability point of view.
SR1 lacked a lot from a realism point of view as far as firearms went,
where an armour jacket plus helmet let you ignore SMG or assault rifle
fire from most opponents (Skill 3 wasn't enough to stage up, 6pts
ballistic meant the damage was negated without a die roll).
SR2 still lacks realism, but is far more playable. Heavy pistols are
dangerous weapons. SMGs and assault rifles can be downright scary. The
realism is questionable, but I like the playability and the feel and so
I don't care :)
(Admit it: while it's unrealistic that heavy pistols do so much damage
compared to SMGs, doesn't it fit the cinematic feel that you can
actually harm someone with a pistol? You certainly couldn't in SR1...)
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:23:15 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: <199707072104.QAA28507@********.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
In message <199707072104.QAA28507@********.mcit.com>, Caric
>If you want to consider them .50 cal that's fine too, but you have to
>assume that the technology of assault rifles and SMG's have developed as
>well. They may be using higher calibers and/or more advance loads to make
>them keep the same differences from pistols as guns today. We pretty much
>consider a 9mm to be the top end of the LP class in our game truthfully,
>but a 10mm or a .40 would be the low end of the HP class, if that puts it
>into perspective from our standpoint.
You forget that some people today - my wife, for instance - found 9mm a
handful, and .45ACP downright painful to fire.
Any improvements you get out of handguns will be in bullet design.
Remember, the FBI accepted the 10mm as a more effective calibre, then
dropped it when it proved to be too much of a handful for most agents to
accurately fire. Doesn't matter how deadly the bullet is, unless you can
hit the target with it.
I don't have a problem with 9mm/.45/.40cal being the standard calibres
in 2058; sixty years ago the standard calibres were 9mm, .38 and .45,
and .357 Magnum was a speciality round for the large and robust shooter
only.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:09:53 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: [SR3] Character Generation
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Here's a suggestion for SR3 which I think would be well received overall...
Get rid of the priority-based system and go to the point-based system from
the Shadowrun Companion for character generation.
It allows for a more diverse sort of character by not confining players to
"X" points worth of skills, "Y" points worth of attributes, and
"Z" amount
of starting nuyen and force points. The cost for magical ability is
balanced with the benefits afforded by it as is the cost of metahumanity.
Also, Edges and Flaws can be better worked into characters if this system is
used.
A good degree of the powergaming problems inherent to SR would be solved and
character diversity would be achieved with the players getting a chargen
system that can truly be tailored to create an original concept instead of
one that caters to cookie-cutter character design. Mages suddenly don't
*have* to have high resources if they want a decent amount of spells or
force points. Cyberware users aren't locked into one million or four
hundred thousand nuyen, they can choose between a few new options. The
system simply works well, while the priority-based system does not.
My biggest peeve of all with SR was character generation and when I saw the
point-based system in the Shadowrun Companion, I damn near cried with
happiness. I know that a lot of players haven't seen or used this system
yet, but I can't see why anyone wouldn't want to use it once they got a
chance to look at it (detractors of the system feel free to chime in here).
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:09:48 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
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At 10:31 AM 7/7/97 -0700, Caric wrote:
>> A Force 4 spell (mediocre), cast at a Willpower 6 opponent (max human)
>> was still able to cause damage. This damage didn't have to go through armor
>> and couldn't be staged down by a body test. This change would make combat
>> spells WAY too powerful. If you wish combat spells to act like DMs, then
>> make them face the same drain codes as DMs and give the opponent a
>> resistance test to resist the damage. Nobody would use damaging
>> manipulations if combat spells were this easy to cast and this
>> devastating in power. *Please* don't make that change...
>The opponent would still get a resistance test.
But not a damage resistance test like victims of DMs get due to the fact
that their damage has to be staged all the way down, the victim of a Combat
spell gets his Willpower or Body and that is all. If combat spells were
made as powerful as this change would make them, nobody in their right mind
would take a DM. All that the opponent gets to resist with is his willpower
or (natural) body, which will be considerably lower than his potential die
pool for a damage resistance test combined with the use of some armor.
>Combat spells will still have higher target numbers and heaven
>help them if the opposition has shielding.
The target number was still the Willpower or Body of the opponent, just as
it is now. If you mean drain, having to fend off (Force) Drain is a
pittance compared to the incredibly enhanced (and game-unbalancing) power
this would give Combat spells.
Shielding always helps, but it wouldn't help near enough. It does plenty
normally, why shouldn't it do so in this situation?
If every person everywhere had a 6 Willpower and someone throwing some
Shielding dice their way 24 hours a day, then I could see this modification
to the rules being somewhat plausible. The average person in SR has a 3
Willpower and doesn't know anyone with magical ability let alone someone
who's willing to shield him constantly...
>DM's will have lower target numbers, but the opponent gets some
>or all of there impact armor.
And a full damage resistance test as opposed to a handful of dice from
Willpower or Body. Remember that a force 4 (mediocre) spell was cast
against a *max* human willpower target and still caused damage without
trouble. Drain was handled easily. The target got no damage resistance
test just a spell resistance test. Imagine what this would do to anyone
without a 6 willpower (90% or more of SR)?
>The drain would be high enough that it would even out.
Nowhere near. As it was clearly presented in Steve's example, the drain was
handled easily and the target (with max human Willpower) of a mediocre spell
was injured.
>The higher target numbers on combat spells would limit there
>effectiveness in comparison to DM's.
Higher TN's? The average Willpower in SR is three (maybe 2, but I'll give
it the benefit of the doubt). This is less than the 4 TN of a damaging
manipulation. Average Body? Same. Still lower, nice and easy to cast on.
There is no downside to the enhanced power that this would give Combat
Spells. The drain increase is inconsequential, the target numbers better on
average than DMs, and the damage unavoidable in almost every case.
A force 3 manabolt cast at an average person would kill every time (barring
some UGLY die rolling) and drain would be resisted easily. I call that
unbalancing.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:10:04 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Tables (was Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!)
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Gurth once dared to write,
>Having the tables in the text makes them much easier to refer to while
>reading a rule than when they're only in the back of the book. Doing it
>like VR 2.0 did and putting the important tables in the back as well as in
>the main text would be best for any rulebook, IMHO.
And for my opinion as well.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:17:08 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Kabael <kabael@****.NET>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties
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> The 4th world has ended in Shadowrun but not in Earthdawn. By this
>I'm saying that what happened to the Blood Wood in the end has yet to be
>revealed. Don't forget there is a living legend cult dedicated to undoing
>the Ritual of Thorns. Maybe they succeed.
noting that the 4th world has not ended as of Earthdawn reminds me of
something. After reading some mail last night about the horrors and the
Scourge, I found that the Scourge only occurs at the PEAK of the magic
cycle, although minor horros seep in before hand. I am sure that many of the
people who own ED already knew that, but I just rediscovered it : ).
As I was saying, since the Scourge occurs at the peak, SR is safe, at least
from the really big Horrors (ie Verjigorm), but the minor ones were noted to
preceed the Scourge by hundreds of years. The *shadows that fed on the
hatreds of men* were a main reason the the Therans believed the tales of the
Scourge and prepared. IMHO, toxic and insect spirits might be the minor
horrors, but are more likely to be the prelude to even them. Bigger threats
are hinted at in Awakenings and Cybertechnology (which has a conversation
that hints at events similar to the beginning of the Scourge). The Scourge
is coming, and that abstract knowledge is something that adds a little
flavor to the SR world, IMHO, as well as ED. As far as surviving goes, I
dont think that SR will suffer much more than ED did (other than a larger
number of people perishing, but only because of the higher population).
Follow the same tactics, hide away, and then crawl out to survive.
Also, there was discussion going around about some of the immortal
characters that would have survived since ED into SR, what about Mestoph the
Elven Nethermancer, he would be at the forefront of Initiate exploration in
SR. BTW, personally, I would LOVE to see nethermancy make an appearance into
SR : )
k a b a e l
meo nike a.d.i.d.a.s. reebok
My world is unaffected, there is an exit here
I say it is an it's true, there is a dream inside a
dream, I'm wide awake the more I sleep
-Marilyn Manson, Reflecting God
kabael@****.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:17:12 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: Kabael <kabael@****.NET>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties (Dragons 'n stuff)
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At 12:02 AM 7/7/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Does anyone know of a section (I belive it's in the Atzlan sourcebook, but
>for the life of me, I can't find it) where they talk about what's inside
>Atzlan temples? I vaguely recall something like shrouded forms with astral
>conduits to them, and a reply from someone like Dunk about "do you realize
>what that means? etc?". I'm working on a theory about a particular horror
>and I need to find that reference. Any help would be appreciated.
>
the conversation at the end of Cybertechnology, IIRC, that happened to be
about Aztlan at that part.
k a b a e l
meo nike a.d.i.d.a.s. reebok
My world is unaffected, there is an exit here
I say it is an it's true, there is a dream inside a
dream, I'm wide awake the more I sleep
-Marilyn Manson, Reflecting God
kabael@****.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:04:28 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
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| You forget that some people today - my wife, for instance - found 9mm a
| handful, and .45ACP downright painful to fire.
Very good point, that's part of what I was saying I see a .50 cal as being
your Ruger Superwarhawks and the like, which in our game still do 8M
moderate damage, but penetrate better than a normal HP.
| Any improvements you get out of handguns will be in bullet design.
| Remember, the FBI accepted the 10mm as a more effective calibre, then
| dropped it when it proved to be too much of a handful for most agents to
| accurately fire. Doesn't matter how deadly the bullet is, unless you can
| hit the target with it.
True.
| I don't have a problem with 9mm/.45/.40cal being the standard calibres
| in 2058; sixty years ago the standard calibres were 9mm, .38 and .45,
| and .357 Magnum was a speciality round for the large and robust shooter
| only.
I can agree with you as well, but it's purely an academic arguement anyway
as we can assume any advancements have been made accross the board as
opposed to only HP's. Therefore the differences should remain pretty much
the same whether larger rounds are used or not. The heavy pistol is still
a deadly weapon on our game because we don't walk around looking like tanks
in layered armor all of the time. If your campaign doesn't use or
disallows layered armor then HP damage at 6M is still beefy enough. Throw
some ex explosive ammo or APDS in that bad boy and you're really tough.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:36:49 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Generation
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TopCat once dared to write,
>Here's a suggestion for SR3 which I think would be well received overall...
>
>Get rid of the priority-based system and go to the point-based system from
>the Shadowrun Companion for character generation.
<snip>
It has finally come to this. Everyone has been expecting a fight
between you and me, Topper and until now we have gotten along fine. I
have to draw the line on the point based system. I do not like the linear
point based system presented in the companion. I have no problem with the
concept of a point based system but not the one in the companion at all.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:09:12 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Generation
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Topcat spouted:
| My biggest peeve of all with SR was character generation and when I saw
the
| point-based system in the Shadowrun Companion, I damn near cried with
| happiness. I know that a lot of players haven't seen or used this system
| yet, but I can't see why anyone wouldn't want to use it once they got a
| chance to look at it (detractors of the system feel free to chime in
here).
I agree with you here TC...we have been allowing the person to choose which
way they wanted to create the character, and I don't think anyone has
chosen the priority system...it only works better for Sams and even then
it's not by much.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:27:54 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
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| But not a damage resistance test like victims of DMs get due to the fact
| that their damage has to be staged all the way down, the victim of a
Combat
| spell gets his Willpower or Body and that is all. If combat spells were
| made as powerful as this change would make them, nobody in their right
mind
| would take a DM. All that the opponent gets to resist with is his
willpower
| or (natural) body, which will be considerably lower than his potential
die
| pool for a damage resistance test combined with the use of some armor.
I don't dispute that, but the higher target number that the combat spell
will need (generally) will help to make up for it by having fewer
successes...also if the drain is increased to the full force that makes
casting those high yield spells very costly for the extra power. I would
limit elemental effects to only the DM's and so there will still be a
need/want for them. Spells like clout will always be great because of the
high yield for low force.
| >Combat spells will still have higher target numbers and heaven
| >help them if the opposition has shielding.
|
| The target number was still the Willpower or Body of the opponent, just
as
| it is now. If you mean drain, having to fend off (Force) Drain is a
| pittance compared to the incredibly enhanced (and game-unbalancing) power
| this would give Combat spells.
Yes the target number will be the same, but the caster won't be able to
afford to cast those high damage spells nearly as much. Even manabolt
would do as much damage to you as your target, and you would have to split
up your pool. I don't even want to get into spells like hellblast.
| Shielding always helps, but it wouldn't help near enough. It does plenty
| normally, why shouldn't it do so in this situation?
I don't think shielding should get any better, maybe i'm thinking
incorrectly here, but for combat spells the shielding adds to the target
number and the targets resistance dice...when a DM is cast the shielding
doesn't add to the TN, but the target does get the extra dice to resist.
At least that's how we use it in our game.
| If every person everywhere had a 6 Willpower and someone throwing some
| Shielding dice their way 24 hours a day, then I could see this
modification
| to the rules being somewhat plausible. The average person in SR has a 3
| Willpower and doesn't know anyone with magical ability let alone someone
| who's willing to shield him constantly...
If you were running against average people it wouldn't matter what you did
to the magic system you would destroy them every time. If you want to talk
about mages fighting only non-mages it's still not going to be any more
deadly because the mage cannot cast as many spells before he is messed up.
If there is an opposing mage then things get really nasty.
| >DM's will have lower target numbers, but the opponent gets some
| >or all of there impact armor.
|
| And a full damage resistance test as opposed to a handful of dice from
| Willpower or Body. Remember that a force 4 (mediocre) spell was cast
| against a *max* human willpower target and still caused damage without
| trouble. Drain was handled easily. The target got no damage resistance
| test just a spell resistance test. Imagine what this would do to anyone
| without a 6 willpower (90% or more of SR)?
And is they do so then that's all the fewer combat pool dice they get when
your buddy shoots them. That was also for a manamissile and the target
only took a light wound.
| >The drain would be high enough that it would even out.
|
| Nowhere near. As it was clearly presented in Steve's example, the drain
was
| handled easily and the target (with max human Willpower) of a mediocre
spell
| was injured.
We are talking about the drain on a manamissile so yes it was handled
easily...if the spell had been a manabolt the drain would have been
light...do you think that the casting magician should take a wound equal to
the one he deals out? I think that a light drain to deliver a moderate
wound is not overbalanced.
| >The higher target numbers on combat spells would limit there
| >effectiveness in comparison to DM's.
|
| Higher TN's? The average Willpower in SR is three (maybe 2, but I'll
give
| it the benefit of the doubt). This is less than the 4 TN of a damaging
| manipulation. Average Body? Same. Still lower, nice and easy to cast
on.
| There is no downside to the enhanced power that this would give Combat
| Spells. The drain increase is inconsequential, the target numbers better
on
| average than DMs, and the damage unavoidable in almost every case.
Again we as shadowrunners are not fighting average people and you can't
argue that. It would be just as easy to just shoot them if you are
fighting pedestrians. How many runner have body and willpower attributes
lower than four? Not many...and if they do then they usually have another
way of defending themselves or have the lower attributes as a role-playing
device and should expect combat to be extremely dangerous to them
regardless.
| A force 3 manabolt cast at an average person would kill every time
(barring
| some UGLY die rolling) and drain would be resisted easily. I call that
| unbalancing.
A force three manbolt cast at a normal person would do kill everytime as it
is now, and drain would be resisted easily. I fail to see the difference.
-Caric
"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:46:27 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@*CUNIX.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain NO officially [OT]
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><Caric wipes away a tear>
>
>I love you guys.
>
><much gasping as I try to not lose it again>
You're not getting my Bud Light. ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:55:04 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Generation
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At 09:36 PM 7/7/97 -0400, MC23 wrote:
>TopCat once dared to write,
>>Here's a suggestion for SR3 which I think would be well received overall...
>>Get rid of the priority-based system and go to the point-based system from
>>the Shadowrun Companion for character generation.
>It has finally come to this. Everyone has been expecting a fight
>between you and me, Topper and until now we have gotten along fine. I
>have to draw the line on the point based system. I do not like the linear
>point based system presented in the companion. I have no problem with the
>concept of a point based system but not the one in the companion at all.
This, of course, begs the questions:
1) What don't you like about the point-based system?
2) Why do you like the priority-based system over the point-based system?
3) Would you rather see the sum-to-ten system used? If so, why?
4) What modifications would it take for a point-based system to be the best
overall choice in your opinion?
I don't think we'll find ourselves in a "fight" here, this subject isn't
really given to those sorts of reactions. There will simply be the "whys"
and "hows" of each opinion. I highly prefer the point-based system for the
reasons I stated earlier and merely wonder why your preferences lie where
they do.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:52:44 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Generation
On Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:09:53 -0500 TopCat <topcat@***.NET> writes:
<<Here's a suggestion for SR3 which I think would be well received
overall...>>
Don't speak too soon, TopCat:)
<<Get rid of the priority-based system and go to the point-based system
from
the Shadowrun Companion for character generation.>>
No. Leave them as-is, with the Points System as an optional rule and
nothing more.
<<It allows for a more diverse sort of character by not confining players
to
"X" points worth of skills, "Y" points worth of attributes, and
"Z"
amount
of starting nuyen and force points. The cost for magical ability is
balanced with the benefits afforded by it as is the cost of metahumanity.
Also, Edges and Flaws can be better worked into characters if this system
is
used.>>
Well, I agree on that point.
<<A good degree of the powergaming problems inherent to SR would be
solved and
character diversity would be achieved with the players getting a chargen
system that can truly be tailored to create an original concept instead
of
one that caters to cookie-cutter character design.>>
Don't take this personally, but that is utter BS, IMO. The point system,
as much as I like it, is more open to abuse than the priority system, by
nature of the flexibility it grants the player. If anything, making the
point based system the standard chargen system would only open the game
up to further powergaming tendencies by opening up further loopholes for
munchkins to abuse. It also requires more thought and knowledge on the
part of a new player. And it makes it much easier for a new player to
screw up.
<<Mages suddenly don't
*have* to have high resources if they want a decent amount of spells or
force points. Cyberware users aren't locked into one million or four
hundred thousand nuyen, they can choose between a few new options. The
system simply works well, while the priority-based system does not.>>
I disagree. While the point-based system is more flexible, I find that
the Priorities system(s) work well enough for just about anything.
<<My biggest peeve of all with SR was character generation and when I saw
the
point-based system in the Shadowrun Companion, I damn near cried with
happiness. I know that a lot of players haven't seen or used this system
yet, but I can't see why anyone wouldn't want to use it once they got a
chance to look at it (detractors of the system feel free to chime in
here).>>
<shrug> I don't think that making the Points system part of the standard
rules would be a good idea, mainly because it's even more open to abuse
than the basic chargen system. And, as much as I like the Edges and
Flaws, they have the same problem. And abuse is one of the things we're
trying to prevent:)
--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:55:28 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
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Steve Kenson once dared to write,
>OK, I'm getting some good feedback. Here's Survey Question #3...
>
>One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more of a
>mystical/magical feel to it than it does now." I'm curious about the idea,
>since I don't quite understand it. Since SR magic is currently (IMHO) based
>on about 80% real-world magic theory and 20% fantasy magic (fireballs and
>such) it feels pretty "mystical" to me. I'd like some feedback on the issue.
>Is SR magic "magical" enough? If not, how could it be better?
The thing closest to this that somewhat irritates me is that
everything more or less relates to either hermetic or shamanic in it's
handling, and mostly to shamanic at that. I would love to see something
that breaks that mold or mixes it up at least. Chinese magic promised
that but we only got a teaser out of the Underworld Sourcebook. Sure it's
fine to leave it that way for NPC's but why would that mean that players
can't play someone of Chinese origins who is a magician. There is no need
to limit players to a purely Western role. The cyberpunk genre is one
filled with an ongoing culture clash.
Now this doesn't have to be in SR3 but I would like to see it
somewhere in a FASA publication.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:54:58 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
Greetings!!!
Actually, the offical reasoning why Pistols do 9M as opposed to 6M is their
use of "Firepower Ammo". No specs on firepower ammo, it just does a better
job and is only manufactured for pistols.
FASA's rationale was that pistols were not powerful enough when they uped the
damage codes to 9M. There had to be a level playing field.
It has nothing to do with round size or anything realistic.
-Bandit
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:04:47 -0700
Reply-To: hernandez@********.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
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Iosthalo said in response to someone whom I forgot:
<snip>
> This all dows derive from the idea of a 9mm pistol being a Heavy Pistol,
> And if the 9mm is a heavy pistol, why aren't there some bigger guns
(aside from
> the Ruger)? What about cannons like the Desert Eagle (which is what I
always
> thought the Ares Predator and Browning Max-power were, thus their
original
> small clip size in first ed.).
I don't think that you could refer to a 9mm as a Heavy Pistol. Yes granted
it has a high velocity, but it doesn't have the stopping power of say a .40
to .45 cal. pistol. Those and larger IMHO are Heavy Pistols. (Ever see the
Desert Eagle .50 cal? Sweet.)
A high velocity round will only punch through target. Whereas the larger
round will impact and the target WILL know he has been hit. (Large chunk
missing, knocked back some).
In the begining Man created God;
and in the image of Man created he him
hernandez@********.com
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:34:36 -0700
Reply-To: hernandez@********.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
Subject: Re: shotguns and silencers
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Hello all, I guess I've lurked long enough. I just had to agree with
Andrew about the shotgun. Seeing as how this is a subject I am familiar
with.
AndrewH said:
<snip>
>It's a hell of an intimidating sight though. Shotguns are pretty evil
looking to
> begin with; this should make chrome-boys scream. Shotguns are not subtle
>weapons, trying to silence one goes against the whole premise of the
>weapon.
<snip>
Being in law enforcement, I can tell you that showing up on scene with a
shotgun is DEFINITELY an attention getter. People tend to not want to argue
with you as much :) But the best is at night when you show up on scene and
bring that old shotgun out of it's carrier and rack a round into the
chamber, (grin) People just tend to stop what they are doing and take
notice. THAT is the universal command of Stop.
In the begining Man created God;
and in the image of Man created he him
hernandez@********.com
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Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:15:13 +1000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: 1st Ed and OOP Modules
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I have the opportunity at the moment to buy myself four or five modules
from a friend's supply, and he's got lots of 1st Ed and OOP modules. I'd
like some suggestions from the listmembers who've played them as to
which would be the best value for money, or the most enjoyable runs.
Private email is probably best.
Thanks, guys...
Lady Jestyr
-----------------------------------------------
All stressed out and no-one to choke...
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:33:34 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
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At 10:57 PM 7/7/97 GMT, Georg wrote:
>Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM> writes:
>> If you have a GM who gives stuff without you having to work for it. Saying
>> that a sam can get wiz gear and lots of cash just by doing a run or two
>> isn't any different than a physad who gets karma off a run or two. You
>> forget that if your GM gives out money and stuff easily, then there's
>> another one that gives out ton's of karma. And there are plenty who are
>> right in the middle. My current GM doesn't hand out nuyen and tech, nor
>> does he hand out karma. Neither would I.
>Of course that is true - but if you play a somewhat clever and skilled
>group it is extremely easy to make some money (heck - used cyberware,
>fetishes, extra data, stollen goods are so easy to acquire and pretty
>easy to sell), while you just cannot even make remotely as much karma.
I allow this, but I don't pay out a whole lot for runs and fairly strictly
enforce the 30% fencing guidleline. In the end, a fair amount of cash is
collected and the karma reward balances out overall.
I tend to give a little heavier on the karma at the beginning of a campaign
and light on the cash. As the characters gain more reknown, they either
take on tougher jobs or they get less karma (what are they really learning
from doing something they've done before now that it's dirt easy?). Most
jobs pay off in nuyen, others don't, some don't pay in anything. No matter
what though (as long as it's even sort of a challenge) the players will get
karma.
>Our GMs tend to be very restrictive on Karma (fortunately we
>have a GM at the moment that is not as restrictive as our usual
>one)... this means the other characters are developing much faster
>than a PA does.
The problem here, as it seems to me, is that your physad probably...
A) Doesn't know how to spend karma to his best benefit
B) Relies far too heavily on or thinks only of Initiation
C) Forgot what money can really do for you
D) Wants to be as powerful as a Street Samurai, without the drawbacks
E) Forgot the perks of physad existence
F) Any combination of the above
Now, the problem could also lie in your GM. Have the physad player explain
his problem with being underpowered compared to everyone else (is he
*really* underpowered or is he just slower than a fully wired samurai and
not as good of an aim?). A good GM will then work with the player to help
him out. Maybe he'll give him a break on Initiation or some extra karma
(karma-for-cash rules, anyone?), maybe he just offers some RP'ing tips,
maybe he'll offer some karma-spending tips that the player hadn't condiered,
maybe he'll shrug and say "sucks to be you". As long as it's something
other than the last, the physad player will be better off than he was before
he took the time to ask.
My physad character (Vagabond) was perhaps the most powerful character on
our Shadowrun team. He wasn't blindingly fast (6+2D6), but he was played
smart and he was very effective at what he did. I didn't try to make him a
front-line samurai, he wouldn't have done well in that role. I didn't try
to make him into a monster-grade initiate, there were better places to spend
his karma. I didn't forget about the nuyen I'd made on runs just because
"physads need karma more".
Money can be used to establish connections, LOTS of them. A runner lives
and dies by the strength and security of his contacts. It can also be used
to get SOTA gear to make life easier on you (a dikoted secure jacket is a
nice investment, likewise a *very good* fake SIN and surveillance gear). It
can also be set aside for a "retirement fund". Money can be used in so many
places for so many things that any character who would discount it because
it isn't karma and he needs karma to initiate should seriously rethink his ways.
If I were your game's physad player, I'd sit down and really think about
what kind of character I was playing. If all that matters to me are
attribute and skill points and levels of Initiation, then there are ways
that I can go about doing that. If actually having a character for any
purpose other than dungeon-crawls is on my mind, then I'd work from that
perspective. I personally work from this perspective now unless trying to
prove a point or for comedy's sake (remember Gun Bunny Deluxe and the Troll
Tank?), but I can't fault someone for playing a dungeon-crawler if that's
what they really want to do.
Anyways, have him consider his character a bit and ask the GM (or even
fellow players) for his opinions and help and I think the situation will
resolve itself painlessly and to the satisfaction of all parties involved.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:39:24 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Generation
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TopCat once dared to write,
<<taken out of order>>
>I don't think we'll find ourselves in a "fight" here, this subject isn't
>really given to those sorts of reactions. There will simply be the "whys"
>and "hows" of each opinion. I highly prefer the point-based system for the
>reasons I stated earlier and merely wonder why your preferences lie where
>they do.
"Suave, you're so fucking suave!"
>This, of course, begs the questions:
>
>1) What don't you like about the point-based system?
It's linear and not geometric. Linear system are by nature more
prone to abuse. The emphasis of priority of what you take is also greatly
removed. As I've said, a point based system would be fine, but not this
one.
>2) Why do you like the priority-based system over the point-based system?
Because Shadowrun CharGen creates a conceptual feel for the
character. Just by your choices you can start to see where the character
is focused. For me linear point based system is flawed to begin with. If
the cost was on a geometric scale then I would reconsider.
>3) Would you rather see the sum-to-ten system used? If so, why?
Nope. It breaks the priority scale balance.
>4) What modifications would it take for a point-based system to be the best
>overall choice in your opinion?
Like I said, a geometric scale as opposed to a linear scale. The
current priority system is geometric and a point based system should be
as well. It's all about balance.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:53:24 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain NO officially [OT]
On Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:36:59 -0700 Caric <caric@********.COM> writes:
>| > >And again, Nightlife, sorry if I offended.
>| >
>| > It's time for a group hug everybody. ;-)
>| If you say so <Raven goes around and hugs Nightlife, MC23, Bull,
>| Gurth, Steven and all the others>
>| Think that's enough ;)
>
><Caric wipes away a tear>
>
>I love you guys.
>
><much gasping as I try to not lose it again>
"But you're still not getting my Bud Lite..."
:)
~Tim
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:53:24 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties
On Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:07:04 -0500 Jaymz <justin@******.NET> writes:
>At 07:07 PM 7/7/97 +0100, you wrote:
>>Why? What's so special about UCLA????
>I don't have my cal free book around, but there's some sort of screwy
stuff
>in place due to the "magical pranks" UCLA and (Berkley?) sorry, don't
know
>caliornia very well.
I don't know about UCLA, but Berkley and the Santa Cruz areas would fit
that bill quite nicely.
>From the stories I've heard from friends who live there, it's quite an
"interesting" place.
>Using magic is very haphazard and unpredictable in that area.
~Tim
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:13:59 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 21:17:08 -0400"
<1.5.4.16.19970707211826.1cef8106@***.tiac.net>
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You wrote:
> Also, there was discussion going around about some of the immortal
> characters that would have survived since ED into SR, what about Mestoph the
> Elven Nethermancer, he would be at the forefront of Initiate exploration in
> SR. BTW, personally, I would LOVE to see nethermancy make an appearance into
> SR : )
Hmm, so Mestoph *didn't* actually die in that li'l story at the beginning of
the ED rulebook?
losthalo
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:20:45 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Generation
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 21:36:49 -0400"
<199707080137.VAA06484@*********.mindspring.com>
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You wrote:
> It has finally come to this. Everyone has been expecting a fight
> between you and me, Topper and until now we have gotten along fine. I
> have to draw the line on the point based system. I do not like the linear
> point based system presented in the companion. I have no problem with the
> concept of a point based system but not the one in the companion at all.
I like the idea of a points-based rather than priority-based system. What
about the Companion version (since I haven't seen it, the book apparently isn't
carried around here) don't you like? What would you suggest instead?
losthalo
