From:	Unknown sender
Subject:	None
Date:	Unknown time and date

Losthalo Wrote:
| > If you were to shoot someone today with a 9mm round
| > from a pistol, and that person was wearing a vest, the would probab;y
not
| > take any damage other thatn bruises or a cracked rib. I can see
weapons
| > progressing as time passed, but wouldn't armor due the same? Finally
we
| > wanted to bring machine pistols to a point that they made sense, and
SMG's
| > were useful as well. With all the burst capable HP's out there now
SMG's
| > were falling by the wayside.
| This all dows derive from the idea of a 9mm pistol being a Heavy Pistol,
but
| I'll agree that assault rifles should have better penetration than
pistols.
| However, if the burst-fire HPs were a problem, why allow them? They're
| basically high-calibre SMGs if they can burst-fire, as the Uzi III can
only
| burst-fire. Sure they have a smaller clip, but that's partly due just to
the
| size of the rounds...
|
| And if the 9mm is a heavy pistol, why aren't there some bigger guns
(aside from
| the Ruger)? What about cannons like the Desert Eagle (which is what I
always
| thought the Ares Predator and Browning Max-power were, thus their
original
| small clip size in first ed.).

If you want to consider them .50 cal that's fine too, but you have to
assume that the technology of assault rifles and SMG's have developed as
well. They may be using higher calibers and/or more advance loads to make
them keep the same differences from pistols as guns today. We pretty much
consider a 9mm to be the top end of the LP class in our game truthfully,
but a 10mm or a .40 would be the low end of the HP class, if that puts it
into perspective from our standpoint. As far as disallowing the burst fire
capable pistols, we could have done that, but after discussion we felt that
over all heavy pistols needed to be reduced for role=playing and realism.
I just can't see the difference between a light and a heavy pistol being 3
to 5 in power AND a damage catagory...it just doesn't feel right. The 6M
damage feels right and has already made a positive influence on our game.

-Caric

"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:56:01 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
In-Reply-To: <199707072049.PAA19971@********.mcit.com> from "Caric" at
Jul 7,
97 01:30:14 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
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|Don't worry Swifty i'm getting there honest. I prefer The Big "Woodchuck
|White" Book
|
|:)
|
|OUCH!!!! (pre-twap/flame response)

Caric, Caric, Caric....

I'm not going to flame you or thwap you......


............ yet...............

I'm going to wait, and then thwap you when you're not ready for it......


<EGMLOL>
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:05:02 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:06 AM 7/5/97 GMT, Shadowrun ML demon <shadowrn-ml@*******.HANSE.DE>
wrote:

>Uhm. You are partially right, but there is one major thing you do not
>pay attention to: While Sammies have a split up preference between
>Karma and NuYen the PhysAdsa just need Karma. Sammies can always do a
>run for some company that builds wiz Cyberware and get one of their
>products in reward. There is nothing comparable to this for a PhysAd.

If you have a GM who gives stuff without you having to work for it. Saying
that a sam can get wiz gear and lots of cash just by doing a run or two
isn't any different than a physad who gets karma off a run or two. You
forget that if your GM gives out money and stuff easily, then there's
another one that gives out ton's of karma. And there are plenty who are
right in the middle. My current GM doesn't hand out nuyen and tech, nor
does he hand out karma. Neither would I.


Rasputin-the-trying-to-get-into-an-Sr-book-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:08:48 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Robert G. Brook" <rgb1@**.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Consolidated Health Spells
In-Reply-To: <199707060131.VAA09575@*********.mindspring.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, MC23 wrote:

> I have never understood the need for separate spells for healing
> different levels of disease, poison, raise/lower attribute, etc. Why
> would anyone take the lower levels of these spells knowing that they
> might need one of a different level. These should all be unified like
> Heal and Treat were when 2nd edition came out. It just makes more sense
> to do so. They should be 1 spell with different drains for the different
> levels.

I also favor adding success thresholds for the increasing levels. For
example, a light (or +1) spell requires at least 1 success; a medium (or
+2) spell requires at least 2 successes; a serious (or +3) spell requires
at least 3 successes; and, a deadly (or +4) spell requires at least 4
successes. This tends to weaken the heal and treat spells a bit, but I
think that is necessary in my game to prevent the energizer bunny
syndrome.

--Glenn Brook
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:55:46 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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| You wrote:
| > The round is smaller yes, but the bullet penatrates more effectively,
| > because of the velocity. In SR assault rifles, smg's, and HP's all do
the
| > same damage...moderate. But apparently HP's penetrate barriers better.
In
| > RL that is just not the case. A .44 will penetrate sure, but an
assault
| > rifle can do it as well with a smaller round.
| Assault rifle, yes, and the HPs and ARs are comparable (9M vs. 8M), if
you're
| really bothered by it, give the assault rifles a bit more or drop the HPs
by 1.
| That's what I would do anyway.

That's cool, but that puts the assault rifles the same as HP's when I still
contend that the penetration power is not the same.

| > You have to consider however that the defender needs more successes
than
| > the attacker, and that in alot of cases will roll fewer dice.
| With Combat Pool and no limit to dice to resist damage? Nah. More dice,
not
| less. Unless the attacker really poured dice into the shot, and if they
both
| use as many dice as they can, the defender, with no no-more-than-your-
| skill-in-combat-pool limit gets to use more dice to resist.

And then when the second shot hits?

-Caric

"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:58:24 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

David wrote:

| | 3) A lower force spell is not as easy to detect when cast.
|
| And that's one that I keep forgetting about as a GM, but am making it
| a point to enforce more frequently. "I chuck a Force 6 ManaBolt."
| "Congradulations, you've just drawn the fire of every other security
| guard, as they shout `Mage behind the dumpster!'."

Yup yup yup...wax the mage is still a good street rule...ya never know what
those rascals are gonna do. Sammies are at least marginally predictable.

-Caric

"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 17:20:34 -0700
Reply-To: mbreton@**.netcom.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: SR3 & Valid Topics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> >I'd drop the optional metatypes altogether, revamp the Flaws so as to
> >eliminate the hosers (Lightning Reflexes, Magic Invulnerability...)

> Since those are options from the Companion, that's where they should
> stay. This is about the CORE RULES, not what to do to the entire system
> or how to make the book over a thousand pages. Please let's keep ideas
> relavant to what's in the main rule book already and anything else that
> HAS to be in there. If it's in another book, then you should ask yourself
> if there is something wrong with an existing rule where it is at.
> Optional and additional rules are fine where they are at. Anything that
> need to cover or CORRECT the main book should be there. Rules for
> handling Stealth and the expanded Threat ratings are two examples of what
> should be in the book. Metavarients and Edges & Flaws are fine where they
> are at.

That was sent in reply to (?) Bull's comment, who included metatypes and
flaws/edges in consideration. Personally, if any rules got added to
Basic Third, I'd think those rules would be it. It's /not/ going to
bulk the book up at all; it is relevant to the various methods of
character creation. Most people I know use them to a limited degree (in
that some of the Edges are deliberately broken - sigh.)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:36:22 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Duane LaFlotte <DLaFlotte@*******.COM>
Subject: News Server
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I was wondering if there is a news server that is for public use that
would have a shadowrun forum ? if so could I please have this address ?
Thanks
Duane
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:41:06 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: News Server
In-Reply-To:
<c=US%a=_%p=Valinor%l=MHT01-MSX-01-970707213622Z-14601@*******.valinor.com> from
"Duane LaFlotte" at Jul
7, 97 05:36:22 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

|
|I was wondering if there is a news server that is for public use that
|would have a shadowrun forum ? if so could I please have this address ?

News SERVER?
Thre is a news GROUP available on most news servers called
rec.games.frp.cyber which deals with shadowrun and cyberpunk (and other
cyber based games)....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:47:53 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Duane LaFlotte <DLaFlotte@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: News Server
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Then only news server that I know is msnews.microsoft.com and they dont
have any rec.games.frp.cyber they are strictly Microsoft stuff. I was
wondering if there was another server that I could connect to that would
be public domain and that would have that rec.games.frp.cyber

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Spike [SMTP:u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK]
>Sent: Monday, July 07, 1997 5:41 PM
>To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
>Subject: Re: News Server
>
>|
>|I was wondering if there is a news server that is for public use that
>|would have a shadowrun forum ? if so could I please have this address ?
>
>News SERVER?
>Thre is a news GROUP available on most news servers called
>rec.games.frp.cyber which deals with shadowrun and cyberpunk (and other
>cyber based games)....
>--
>_____________________________________________________________________________
>_
>|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?"
>|
>|Andrew Halliwell |
>|
>|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control
>|
>|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..."
>|
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+
>|
>|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :(
>|
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:08:06 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

| Caric, Caric, Caric....
|
| I'm not going to flame you or thwap you......
|
|
| ............ yet...............
|
| I'm going to wait, and then thwap you when you're not ready for it......
|
|
| <EGMLOL>

Ya know Spike you're alot like the Spanish Inquisition in that regard.

:)

-Caric

"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:54:44 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: News Server
In-Reply-To:
<c=US%a=_%p=Valinor%l=MHT01-MSX-01-970707214753Z-14620@*******.valinor.com> from
"Duane LaFlotte" at Jul
7, 97 05:47:53 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

|
|Then only news server that I know is msnews.microsoft.com and they dont
|have any rec.games.frp.cyber they are strictly Microsoft stuff. I was
|wondering if there was another server that I could connect to that would
|be public domain and that would have that rec.games.frp.cyber

Is msnews a public newsserver, or one for employees only?
If it's the former, it SHOULD have all of the rec heirarchy... If it's the
latter, then, ho hum.....

I think any commercial newsserver for public use has access. I just have no
idea HOW to access them. At Keele, accessing the Keele server is automatic.

I tried accessing news.demon.co.uk once by changing an environment variable,
but connection was refused.....

Anyone?

P.S. SNIP OFF THE .SIG!!!!!!!!!!!!
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:53:38 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: mike.paff@*****.COM
Subject: Re: News Server

> I was wondering if there is a news server that is for public use that
> would have a shadowrun forum ? if so could I please have this address ?

If you have a web browser, you can access newsgroups through www.zippo.com
Otherwise, talk to your Internet Service Provider to see if they have a
news server for you to use.

Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:55:33 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties (slight rant)
In-Reply-To: <199707072120.RAA20027@********.mcit.com> from "Caric" at
Jul 7,
97 02:08:06 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

|Ya know Spike you're alot like the Spanish Inquisition in that regard.

I didn't expect the spanish inquisition......

:) :p

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:00:13 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: News Server
In-Reply-To: <199707072153.OAA29246@*******.> from "mike.paff@*****.COM"
at
Jul 7, 97 02:53:38 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

|
|> I was wondering if there is a news server that is for public use that
|> would have a shadowrun forum ? if so could I please have this address ?
|
|If you have a web browser, you can access newsgroups through www.zippo.com
|Otherwise, talk to your Internet Service Provider to see if they have a
|news server for you to use.

Another usefull web address is www.dejanews.com...

Not only does this hold newsgroups... It also stores about 2 YEARS worth of
past posts to almost every newsgroup you can think of...

(apart from binary ones....)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:03:31 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Duane LaFlotte <DLaFlotte@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: News Server
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Both of you thanks for your help.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: mike.paff@*****.COM [SMTP:mike.paff@*****.COM]
>Sent: Monday, July 07, 1997 5:54 PM
>To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
>Subject: Re: News Server
>
>> I was wondering if there is a news server that is for public use that
>> would have a shadowrun forum ? if so could I please have this address ?
>
>If you have a web browser, you can access newsgroups through www.zippo.com
>Otherwise, talk to your Internet Service Provider to see if they have a
>news server for you to use.
>
>Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:06:55 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: The Spaceman <spaced@*.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: News Server

>>>>> Spike didst say unto the aether thusly:

# I tried accessing news.demon.co.uk once by changing an environment variable,
# but connection was refused.....

# Anyone?

The following website has a list of possible public sites. You may have
to browse a little to find one that works:

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/3959/usenet.html

The Spaceman |Death before dishonor.
spaced@*.washington.edu |Drugs before lunch.
Check out the Bill Page! | - Aspen Drug & Gun Club
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~spaced/bill.html
New maintainer of the Shadowrun Player Directory:
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~spaced/srdir/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:20:38 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 13:46:15 -0700"
<199707072104.QAA28507@********.mcit.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

You wrote:
> If you want to consider them .50 cal that's fine too, but you have to
> assume that the technology of assault rifles and SMG's have developed as
> well. They may be using higher calibers and/or more advance loads to make
> them keep the same differences from pistols as guns today. We pretty much
> consider a 9mm to be the top end of the LP class in our game truthfully,
> but a 10mm or a .40 would be the low end of the HP class, if that puts it
> into perspective from our standpoint.
Now those stats I could agree with.

As far as disallowing the burst fire
> capable pistols, we could have done that, but after discussion we felt that
> over all heavy pistols needed to be reduced for role=playing and realism.
> I just can't see the difference between a light and a heavy pistol being 3
> to 5 in power AND a damage catagory...it just doesn't feel right. The 6M
> damage feels right and has already made a positive influence on our game.
I couldn't agree with you more, I figure the light pistols should be at the
damage category of the SMGs, 6M and 7M. Heavy Pistols might run from 8M (your
.45) to 10M (the gigantic .50 and 11mm magnum rounds). Light pistols in 2nd ed
are a joke, as are hold-outs. SR has this hangup with small guns actually
doing damage, apparently all hold-outs are .22Short and .25, whereas there are
today .44mag and .357mag hold-outs. The streetline special was admittedly
neat in 1st ed because the picture made it small enough to practically pop in
your mouth, but no one was scared of it.

losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:29:21 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Consolidated Health Spells
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 16:08:48 -0500"
<Pine.SOL.3.96.970707160456.18230A-100000@**.MsState.Edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

You wrote:
> I also favor adding success thresholds for the increasing levels. For
> example, a light (or +1) spell requires at least 1 success; a medium (or
> +2) spell requires at least 2 successes; a serious (or +3) spell requires
> at least 3 successes; and, a deadly (or +4) spell requires at least 4
> successes. This tends to weaken the heal and treat spells a bit, but I
> think that is necessary in my game to prevent the energizer bunny
> syndrome.

That's one thing they did away with in 2nd ed was thresholds for spells, which
might be another nice thing to bring back in 2nd ed...

losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:30:40 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 13:55:46 -0700"
<199707072111.QAA01123@********.mcit.com>
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You wrote:
> That's cool, but that puts the assault rifles the same as HP's when I still
> contend that the penetration power is not the same.
True, but if anything I think assault rifles have been shortchanged in this
regard. Do typical vests stop assault rounds today? Anyone have ideas on
this, more info?


> And then when the second shot hits?

Aye, but the second shot is going to suffer from recoil, higher t#.

losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 18:37:35 -0700
Reply-To: mbreton@**.netcom.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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David Buehrer wrote:
>
> Shawn McCollum wrote:
> |
> | though alot of things have to be revamped. I would like to see a
> | skill+attribute based system, which might make dice pools obsolete
> | also. The skill web just makes things to annoying, I hate counting
>
> Ditto on making a skill-attribute system (skill+attribute/2).

It already exists: it's called Cyberpunk 2020.

If you read the message Steve K posted, they're *not* going to retool
the system. Skill+Att is too large a change to just slip in.

Heck,
> you could do it now if you wanted to (as a house rule), figuring out
> what the closest attribute is on the skill web and linking the skill
> to that. Those skills that are way out on the skill web (more than 2
> dots from an attribute) could be "solo" skills (they aren't averaged
> with any attribute). And if someone doesn't have the skill they roll
> half their attribute at +2. If it's a "solo" skill it can't be
> attempted at all. Anyway, I'd like to see something like that.

I will agree that the Skill Web is mungled and the Companion munged it
further: the idea of defaulting from specialties only resulted in more
abuse, not less. It seems to me that it's also completely against the
grain of what specializations are (I'm good at (foo) and nothing else).

The Skill Web does a pretty good job of allowing for jack-of-all-trades
characters - you simply beef up your atts and get a few central skills -
and that's a distinct advantage Shadowrun offers. No other game (to my
recollection) allows for this. It makes characters a lot more broader
in their skills.

I don't allow defaulting from skills, which solves all the problems in
the games I run. Yes, you've fired a pistol on a target range; you
really think that helps you load a mortar?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:36:07 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 13:24:37 -0700"
<19970707202437.20832.rocketmail@*****.rocketmail.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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You wrote:
> As a GM I'm usually against raising somethings power to solve an
> issue, I'd much rather decrease a different area to bring about
> balance.
True, but I guess I see assault rifles as underpowered as written anyway, and
so don't have a problem raising them. Same goes for light pistols, push them
up to 5M-7M, no problem. Which would also include the machine pistols, giving
them an advantage over heavy pistols in exchange for their greater noise,
illegality (automatic weapons), and still higher concealiability. They both
have a high ammo capacity to keep up with their ROF, too. :)

> As you suggest, we did drop the HP power level. We just cut it the
> base down to 6M since dropping it by 1 or 2 had it equal to an Assault
> Rifle or SMG and that's what wasn't making sense to us. Also as Caric
> has said, Machine Pistols were making no sense to us. On burst the
> were doing the same as a heavy pistol, but with recoil and a base
> round of 6L v.s. 9m when figuring penetration against barriers and the
> like. Why would anyone chose the MP over the HP? Now, with a HP doing
> 6M and an MP doing 9M on burst, there's a reason someone may chose one
> over the other.
Yes, but now all the advantages go to the MPs, except that they're a little
louder on bursts... Why use the heavy pistol, now?
*shrug

losthalo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:36:47 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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| As far as disallowing the burst fire
| > capable pistols, we could have done that, but after discussion we felt
that
| > over all heavy pistols needed to be reduced for role=playing and
realism.
| > I just can't see the difference between a light and a heavy pistol
being 3
| > to 5 in power AND a damage catagory...it just doesn't feel right. The
6M
| > damage feels right and has already made a positive influence on our
game.
| I couldn't agree with you more, I figure the light pistols should be at
the
| damage category of the SMGs, 6M and 7M. Heavy Pistols might run from 8M
(your
| .45) to 10M (the gigantic .50 and 11mm magnum rounds). Light pistols in
2nd ed
| are a joke, as are hold-outs. SR has this hangup with small guns
actually
| doing damage, apparently all hold-outs are .22Short and .25, whereas
there are
| today .44mag and .357mag hold-outs. The streetline special was
admittedly
| neat in 1st ed because the picture made it small enough to practically
pop in
| your mouth, but no one was scared of it.

We would just prefer to adjust heavy pistols down as opposed to light
pistols up, but as it stands in the rules FASA isn't consistent. And
you're right about the hold-out, that's why it's a last resort and you put
flechette rounds in it. Can you say called shot to the face? I thought
you could. :)

-Caric

"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:41:12 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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You wrote:
| > That's cool, but that puts the assault rifles the same as HP's when I
still
| > contend that the penetration power is not the same.
| True, but if anything I think assault rifles have been shortchanged in
this
| regard. Do typical vests stop assault rounds today? Anyone have ideas
on
| this, more info?

I doubt that they would fully stop an assault rifle round at close range,
but they would help. The damage is high enough that when a burst is fired
it gets nasty ven with the armor layered.

| > And then when the second shot hits?
|
| Aye, but the second shot is going to suffer from recoil, higher t#.

Nah...i've got the mods. ;)

-Caric

"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:07:09 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: News Server
In-Reply-To: <6196.199707072200@******.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 23:00 7/7/97 +0100, you wrote:

>Another usefull web address is www.dejanews.com...
>
>Not only does this hold newsgroups... It also stores about 2 YEARS worth of
>past posts to almost every newsgroup you can think of...
>
>(apart from binary ones....)

And you don't read the binary groups, right Spike? :)

With only 3 hours a day, I don't even have time to open my newsreader :P

-Adam

--
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@*ndernet \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
"Can I have a cup of angst to go with my un-happy meal?" -- Hi & Lois
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:02:37 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 15:41:12 -0700"
<199707072253.SAA00973@********.mcit.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

You wrote:
> I doubt that they would fully stop an assault rifle round at close range,
> but they would help. The damage is high enough that when a burst is fired
> it gets nasty ven with the armor layered.
Well, what happens in SR is that 8M turns into 3M, which is easy to avoid with
a dodge and some pool dice.

> Nah...i've got the mods. ;)
Well, yeah, muzzle brakes are neat, but they shoot concealability to heck. :(
Where do *you* hide your assault rifle?

losthalo, who hides his in the car, cause it never sees any use anyway. :(
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:11:50 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Angel Ramos y David Fayes <hansa@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Fortune Tellers
In-Reply-To: <199707070123.VAA08166@****.provide.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 09:22 PM 06/07/1997 -0400, Justin wrote:
>[snip]
>Now, I could just say that she is very expensive. That in itself would
>limit access to her. I could even give her an eclectic schedule, so
>finding her when she is in isn't always easy. However, I don't want to cop
>out and just have her charge money. Any ideas on what else she may expect
>for payment besides nu yen?

Why don't FT character ask for some kind of work retribution "I would need
a component for my fortune telling that is only found in..... and I tought
you might be able to pay me getting me some more of this componet". This
way, her customer (a big corp exec) could hire shadowrunners to get this
misterious component.

Hope this spark your imagination a little more

The elven mage
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:57:59 GMT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Shadowrun ML demon <shadowrn-ml@*******.hanse.de>"
<shadowrn-ml@*******.HANSE.DE>
Organization: Nightmare on Coin Street
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM> writes:
> If you have a GM who gives stuff without you having to work for it. Saying
> that a sam can get wiz gear and lots of cash just by doing a run or two
> isn't any different than a physad who gets karma off a run or two. You
> forget that if your GM gives out money and stuff easily, then there's
> another one that gives out ton's of karma. And there are plenty who are
> right in the middle. My current GM doesn't hand out nuyen and tech, nor
> does he hand out karma. Neither would I.

Of course that is true - but if you play a somewhat clever and skilled
group it is extremely easy to make some money (heck - used cyberware,
fetishes, extra data, stollen goods are so easy to acquire and pretty
easy to sell), while you just cannot even make remotely as much
karma. Our GMs tend to be very restrictive on Karma (fortunately we
have a GM at the moment that is not as restrictive as our usual
one)... this means the other characters are developing much faster
than a PA does.

Later,
Georg

- --
Georg C. F. Greve <greve@*******.hanse.de>
http://porter.desy.de/~greve/
"People who fight may lose. People who do not
fight have already lost." -- Bertold Brecht

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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:58:47 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: MANA vs PHYSICAL spell
In-Reply-To: <s3bcb6fd.042@****.co.za>
MIME-Version: 1.0

In message <s3bcb6fd.042@****.co.za>, Dion Scher <Dscher@****.CO.ZA>
writes
>Thanks for the reply, but I the responses are missing my question. I'm NOT
>asking whats the advantage of a ManaMissile but what's the DISADVANTAGE of a
>MANAmissile. Why would I bother, as a mage, to learn powermissile when I could
>learn ManaMissile. Statistically speaking, I will have a better chance of
>combatting enemies with ManaMissile. So why bother with PowerMissile?

Because (a) you might want to hurt something with high Willpower but low
Body, or (b) you might want to target something inanimate. ManaMissile
will only damage living targets: Power Missile will also affect doors,
cameras, cars, windows...


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:53:34 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Barrier spells
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

---VINDICATOR MINIGUN? I DROP PRONE wrote:
>
> hello all,
> a question about barrier spells. a mage throws up a barrier
spell and
> is attacked by physical means (guns, arrows, whatever). does the
barrier
> degrade as a actual barrier upon being struck by something powerful,
or not?

I know opinions and GM rulings vary greatly on this.

In may game I've said yes, barrier ratings for spells degrade like
their mundane counterparts, the spell winks out of existence when it
reaches zero. However, I can't picture big holes being opened in the
spell, so I rule for every 1/2 meter opening that would be ripped in a
mundane barrier, another point of barrier rating degrades off the
spell.

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:53:49 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: MANA vs PHYSICAL spell
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

| In message <s3bcb6fd.042@****.co.za>, Dion Scher <Dscher@****.CO.ZA>
| writes
| >Thanks for the reply, but I the responses are missing my question. I'm
NOT
| >asking whats the advantage of a ManaMissile but what's the DISADVANTAGE
of a
| >MANAmissile. Why would I bother, as a mage, to learn powermissile when I
could
| >learn ManaMissile. Statistically speaking, I will have a better chance
of
| >combatting enemies with ManaMissile. So why bother with PowerMissile?
|
| Because (a) you might want to hurt something with high Willpower but low
| Body, or (b) you might want to target something inanimate. ManaMissile
| will only damage living targets: Power Missile will also affect doors,
| cameras, cars, windows...

Also power missile can be sent through a focus while manamissile cannot.

-Caric

"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:50:08 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

| You wrote:
| > I doubt that they would fully stop an assault rifle round at close
range,
| > but they would help. The damage is high enough that when a burst is
fired
| > it gets nasty ven with the armor layered.
| Well, what happens in SR is that 8M turns into 3M, which is easy to avoid
with
| a dodge and some pool dice.

That's what full auto is for. :)

| > Nah...i've got the mods. ;)
| Well, yeah, muzzle brakes are neat, but they shoot concealability to
heck. :(
| Where do *you* hide your assault rifle?

Actually I leave it at home, I don't take it anywhere unless the fit is
hitting the shan and then I usually have no need to hide it.

-Caric

"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:10:38 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: MANA vs PHYSICAL spell
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

---Dion Scher wrote:
>
> Thanks for the reply, but I the responses are missing my question.
I'm NOT asking whats the advantage of a ManaMissile but what's the
DISADVANTAGE of a MANAmissile. Why would I bother, as a mage, to learn
powermissile when I could learn ManaMissile. Statistically speaking, I
will have a better chance of combatting enemies with ManaMissile. So
why bother with PowerMissile?

---Reply since the message didn't seem to get one--

Power Missile is a physical spell and therefore be targeted on
inanimate objects as well as the living. You can hit vehicles, drones,
security cameras, doors, computers and so on with Power Missile where
you couldn't with it's Mana based brothers.

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:15:10 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: shotguns and silencers
In-Reply-To: <970706213139_423842298@*******.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0

In message <970706213139_423842298@*******.mail.aol.com>, Duncan
McNeill-Burton <Dreadnaut1@***.COM> writes
>Actually, I'm pretty sure you can Gas Vent a shotgun, however, you can't fire
>shot from a Gas Vented shotgun, and only a sound suppressor will keep the
>noise down, and that only works with solid slugs as well.

All you need to do is put the shot in a sabot: a plastic carrier to hold
the shot together in the barrel. Once out of the barrel, air resistance
slows the sabot down faster than the shot and you get the usual
spreading effect.

End result? No shot getting caught in the vent.

The wad would probably do the same job anyway. And since the implication
for most "shot" rounds is that they fall between 000 and #4 shot, they
won't get caught in many gas vents anyway.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:10:28 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: <199707071748.NAA10788@********.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0

In message <199707071748.NAA10788@********.mcit.com>, Caric
<caric@********.COM> writes
>The round is smaller yes, but the bullet penatrates more effectively,
>because of the velocity. In SR assault rifles, smg's, and HP's all do the
>same damage...moderate. But apparently HP's penetrate barriers better. In
>RL that is just not the case. A .44 will penetrate sure, but an assault
>rifle can do it as well with a smaller round.

An assault rifle will penetrate walls, armour et al that a pistol will
stop dead on. A medium MG or battle rifle (my beloved old L1A1) wil
shoot through anything you see in a routine urban environment.

One of my gripes with SR is the lack of differentiation between assault
rifles and SMGs. On the other hand, "shot with an assault rifle" equals
"automatic long-term hospitalisation" for real life, so that's perhaps
not such a bad thing from a playability point of view.

SR1 lacked a lot from a realism point of view as far as firearms went,
where an armour jacket plus helmet let you ignore SMG or assault rifle
fire from most opponents (Skill 3 wasn't enough to stage up, 6pts
ballistic meant the damage was negated without a die roll).

SR2 still lacks realism, but is far more playable. Heavy pistols are
dangerous weapons. SMGs and assault rifles can be downright scary. The
realism is questionable, but I like the playability and the feel and so
I don't care :)

(Admit it: while it's unrealistic that heavy pistols do so much damage
compared to SMGs, doesn't it fit the cinematic feel that you can
actually harm someone with a pistol? You certainly couldn't in SR1...)

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:23:15 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
In-Reply-To: <199707072104.QAA28507@********.mcit.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0

In message <199707072104.QAA28507@********.mcit.com>, Caric
>If you want to consider them .50 cal that's fine too, but you have to
>assume that the technology of assault rifles and SMG's have developed as
>well. They may be using higher calibers and/or more advance loads to make
>them keep the same differences from pistols as guns today. We pretty much
>consider a 9mm to be the top end of the LP class in our game truthfully,
>but a 10mm or a .40 would be the low end of the HP class, if that puts it
>into perspective from our standpoint.

You forget that some people today - my wife, for instance - found 9mm a
handful, and .45ACP downright painful to fire.

Any improvements you get out of handguns will be in bullet design.
Remember, the FBI accepted the 10mm as a more effective calibre, then
dropped it when it proved to be too much of a handful for most agents to
accurately fire. Doesn't matter how deadly the bullet is, unless you can
hit the target with it.

I don't have a problem with 9mm/.45/.40cal being the standard calibres
in 2058; sixty years ago the standard calibres were 9mm, .38 and .45,
and .357 Magnum was a speciality round for the large and robust shooter
only.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:09:53 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: [SR3] Character Generation
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Here's a suggestion for SR3 which I think would be well received overall...

Get rid of the priority-based system and go to the point-based system from
the Shadowrun Companion for character generation.

It allows for a more diverse sort of character by not confining players to
"X" points worth of skills, "Y" points worth of attributes, and
"Z" amount
of starting nuyen and force points. The cost for magical ability is
balanced with the benefits afforded by it as is the cost of metahumanity.
Also, Edges and Flaws can be better worked into characters if this system is
used.

A good degree of the powergaming problems inherent to SR would be solved and
character diversity would be achieved with the players getting a chargen
system that can truly be tailored to create an original concept instead of
one that caters to cookie-cutter character design. Mages suddenly don't
*have* to have high resources if they want a decent amount of spells or
force points. Cyberware users aren't locked into one million or four
hundred thousand nuyen, they can choose between a few new options. The
system simply works well, while the priority-based system does not.

My biggest peeve of all with SR was character generation and when I saw the
point-based system in the Shadowrun Companion, I damn near cried with
happiness. I know that a lot of players haven't seen or used this system
yet, but I can't see why anyone wouldn't want to use it once they got a
chance to look at it (detractors of the system feel free to chime in here).
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:09:48 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
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At 10:31 AM 7/7/97 -0700, Caric wrote:
>> A Force 4 spell (mediocre), cast at a Willpower 6 opponent (max human)
>> was still able to cause damage. This damage didn't have to go through armor
>> and couldn't be staged down by a body test. This change would make combat
>> spells WAY too powerful. If you wish combat spells to act like DMs, then
>> make them face the same drain codes as DMs and give the opponent a
>> resistance test to resist the damage. Nobody would use damaging
>> manipulations if combat spells were this easy to cast and this
>> devastating in power. *Please* don't make that change...

>The opponent would still get a resistance test.

But not a damage resistance test like victims of DMs get due to the fact
that their damage has to be staged all the way down, the victim of a Combat
spell gets his Willpower or Body and that is all. If combat spells were
made as powerful as this change would make them, nobody in their right mind
would take a DM. All that the opponent gets to resist with is his willpower
or (natural) body, which will be considerably lower than his potential die
pool for a damage resistance test combined with the use of some armor.

>Combat spells will still have higher target numbers and heaven
>help them if the opposition has shielding.

The target number was still the Willpower or Body of the opponent, just as
it is now. If you mean drain, having to fend off (Force) Drain is a
pittance compared to the incredibly enhanced (and game-unbalancing) power
this would give Combat spells.

Shielding always helps, but it wouldn't help near enough. It does plenty
normally, why shouldn't it do so in this situation?

If every person everywhere had a 6 Willpower and someone throwing some
Shielding dice their way 24 hours a day, then I could see this modification
to the rules being somewhat plausible. The average person in SR has a 3
Willpower and doesn't know anyone with magical ability let alone someone
who's willing to shield him constantly...

>DM's will have lower target numbers, but the opponent gets some
>or all of there impact armor.

And a full damage resistance test as opposed to a handful of dice from
Willpower or Body. Remember that a force 4 (mediocre) spell was cast
against a *max* human willpower target and still caused damage without
trouble. Drain was handled easily. The target got no damage resistance
test just a spell resistance test. Imagine what this would do to anyone
without a 6 willpower (90% or more of SR)?

>The drain would be high enough that it would even out.

Nowhere near. As it was clearly presented in Steve's example, the drain was
handled easily and the target (with max human Willpower) of a mediocre spell
was injured.

>The higher target numbers on combat spells would limit there
>effectiveness in comparison to DM's.

Higher TN's? The average Willpower in SR is three (maybe 2, but I'll give
it the benefit of the doubt). This is less than the 4 TN of a damaging
manipulation. Average Body? Same. Still lower, nice and easy to cast on.
There is no downside to the enhanced power that this would give Combat
Spells. The drain increase is inconsequential, the target numbers better on
average than DMs, and the damage unavoidable in almost every case.

A force 3 manabolt cast at an average person would kill every time (barring
some UGLY die rolling) and drain would be resisted easily. I call that
unbalancing.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:10:04 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Tables (was Re: SHADOWRUN, 3rd EDITION!)
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Gurth once dared to write,

>Having the tables in the text makes them much easier to refer to while
>reading a rule than when they're only in the back of the book. Doing it
>like VR 2.0 did and putting the important tables in the back as well as in
>the main text would be best for any rulebook, IMHO.

And for my opinion as well.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:17:08 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Kabael <kabael@****.NET>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties
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> The 4th world has ended in Shadowrun but not in Earthdawn. By this
>I'm saying that what happened to the Blood Wood in the end has yet to be
>revealed. Don't forget there is a living legend cult dedicated to undoing
>the Ritual of Thorns. Maybe they succeed.

noting that the 4th world has not ended as of Earthdawn reminds me of
something. After reading some mail last night about the horrors and the
Scourge, I found that the Scourge only occurs at the PEAK of the magic
cycle, although minor horros seep in before hand. I am sure that many of the
people who own ED already knew that, but I just rediscovered it : ).

As I was saying, since the Scourge occurs at the peak, SR is safe, at least
from the really big Horrors (ie Verjigorm), but the minor ones were noted to
preceed the Scourge by hundreds of years. The *shadows that fed on the
hatreds of men* were a main reason the the Therans believed the tales of the
Scourge and prepared. IMHO, toxic and insect spirits might be the minor
horrors, but are more likely to be the prelude to even them. Bigger threats
are hinted at in Awakenings and Cybertechnology (which has a conversation
that hints at events similar to the beginning of the Scourge). The Scourge
is coming, and that abstract knowledge is something that adds a little
flavor to the SR world, IMHO, as well as ED. As far as surviving goes, I
dont think that SR will suffer much more than ED did (other than a larger
number of people perishing, but only because of the higher population).
Follow the same tactics, hide away, and then crawl out to survive.

Also, there was discussion going around about some of the immortal
characters that would have survived since ED into SR, what about Mestoph the
Elven Nethermancer, he would be at the forefront of Initiate exploration in
SR. BTW, personally, I would LOVE to see nethermancy make an appearance into
SR : )

k a b a e l

meo nike a.d.i.d.a.s. reebok
My world is unaffected, there is an exit here
I say it is an it's true, there is a dream inside a
dream, I'm wide awake the more I sleep
-Marilyn Manson, Reflecting God

kabael@****.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:17:12 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Kabael <kabael@****.NET>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties (Dragons 'n stuff)
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At 12:02 AM 7/7/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Does anyone know of a section (I belive it's in the Atzlan sourcebook, but
>for the life of me, I can't find it) where they talk about what's inside
>Atzlan temples? I vaguely recall something like shrouded forms with astral
>conduits to them, and a reply from someone like Dunk about "do you realize
>what that means? etc?". I'm working on a theory about a particular horror
>and I need to find that reference. Any help would be appreciated.
>

the conversation at the end of Cybertechnology, IIRC, that happened to be
about Aztlan at that part.

k a b a e l

meo nike a.d.i.d.a.s. reebok
My world is unaffected, there is an exit here
I say it is an it's true, there is a dream inside a
dream, I'm wide awake the more I sleep
-Marilyn Manson, Reflecting God

kabael@****.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:04:28 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
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| You forget that some people today - my wife, for instance - found 9mm a
| handful, and .45ACP downright painful to fire.

Very good point, that's part of what I was saying I see a .50 cal as being
your Ruger Superwarhawks and the like, which in our game still do 8M
moderate damage, but penetrate better than a normal HP.


| Any improvements you get out of handguns will be in bullet design.
| Remember, the FBI accepted the 10mm as a more effective calibre, then
| dropped it when it proved to be too much of a handful for most agents to
| accurately fire. Doesn't matter how deadly the bullet is, unless you can
| hit the target with it.

True.

| I don't have a problem with 9mm/.45/.40cal being the standard calibres
| in 2058; sixty years ago the standard calibres were 9mm, .38 and .45,
| and .357 Magnum was a speciality round for the large and robust shooter
| only.

I can agree with you as well, but it's purely an academic arguement anyway
as we can assume any advancements have been made accross the board as
opposed to only HP's. Therefore the differences should remain pretty much
the same whether larger rounds are used or not. The heavy pistol is still
a deadly weapon on our game because we don't walk around looking like tanks
in layered armor all of the time. If your campaign doesn't use or
disallows layered armor then HP damage at 6M is still beefy enough. Throw
some ex explosive ammo or APDS in that bad boy and you're really tough.

-Caric

"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:36:49 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Generation
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TopCat once dared to write,

>Here's a suggestion for SR3 which I think would be well received overall...
>
>Get rid of the priority-based system and go to the point-based system from
>the Shadowrun Companion for character generation.

<snip>

It has finally come to this. Everyone has been expecting a fight
between you and me, Topper and until now we have gotten along fine. I
have to draw the line on the point based system. I do not like the linear
point based system presented in the companion. I have no problem with the
concept of a point based system but not the one in the companion at all.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:09:12 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Generation
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Topcat spouted:

| My biggest peeve of all with SR was character generation and when I saw
the
| point-based system in the Shadowrun Companion, I damn near cried with
| happiness. I know that a lot of players haven't seen or used this system
| yet, but I can't see why anyone wouldn't want to use it once they got a
| chance to look at it (detractors of the system feel free to chime in
here).

I agree with you here TC...we have been allowing the person to choose which
way they wanted to create the character, and I don't think anyone has
chosen the priority system...it only works better for Sams and even then
it's not by much.

-Caric

"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:27:54 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Combat Spells
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| But not a damage resistance test like victims of DMs get due to the fact
| that their damage has to be staged all the way down, the victim of a
Combat
| spell gets his Willpower or Body and that is all. If combat spells were
| made as powerful as this change would make them, nobody in their right
mind
| would take a DM. All that the opponent gets to resist with is his
willpower
| or (natural) body, which will be considerably lower than his potential
die
| pool for a damage resistance test combined with the use of some armor.

I don't dispute that, but the higher target number that the combat spell
will need (generally) will help to make up for it by having fewer
successes...also if the drain is increased to the full force that makes
casting those high yield spells very costly for the extra power. I would
limit elemental effects to only the DM's and so there will still be a
need/want for them. Spells like clout will always be great because of the
high yield for low force.

| >Combat spells will still have higher target numbers and heaven
| >help them if the opposition has shielding.
|
| The target number was still the Willpower or Body of the opponent, just
as
| it is now. If you mean drain, having to fend off (Force) Drain is a
| pittance compared to the incredibly enhanced (and game-unbalancing) power
| this would give Combat spells.

Yes the target number will be the same, but the caster won't be able to
afford to cast those high damage spells nearly as much. Even manabolt
would do as much damage to you as your target, and you would have to split
up your pool. I don't even want to get into spells like hellblast.

| Shielding always helps, but it wouldn't help near enough. It does plenty
| normally, why shouldn't it do so in this situation?

I don't think shielding should get any better, maybe i'm thinking
incorrectly here, but for combat spells the shielding adds to the target
number and the targets resistance dice...when a DM is cast the shielding
doesn't add to the TN, but the target does get the extra dice to resist.
At least that's how we use it in our game.

| If every person everywhere had a 6 Willpower and someone throwing some
| Shielding dice their way 24 hours a day, then I could see this
modification
| to the rules being somewhat plausible. The average person in SR has a 3
| Willpower and doesn't know anyone with magical ability let alone someone
| who's willing to shield him constantly...

If you were running against average people it wouldn't matter what you did
to the magic system you would destroy them every time. If you want to talk
about mages fighting only non-mages it's still not going to be any more
deadly because the mage cannot cast as many spells before he is messed up.
If there is an opposing mage then things get really nasty.

| >DM's will have lower target numbers, but the opponent gets some
| >or all of there impact armor.
|
| And a full damage resistance test as opposed to a handful of dice from
| Willpower or Body. Remember that a force 4 (mediocre) spell was cast
| against a *max* human willpower target and still caused damage without
| trouble. Drain was handled easily. The target got no damage resistance
| test just a spell resistance test. Imagine what this would do to anyone
| without a 6 willpower (90% or more of SR)?

And is they do so then that's all the fewer combat pool dice they get when
your buddy shoots them. That was also for a manamissile and the target
only took a light wound.

| >The drain would be high enough that it would even out.
|
| Nowhere near. As it was clearly presented in Steve's example, the drain
was
| handled easily and the target (with max human Willpower) of a mediocre
spell
| was injured.

We are talking about the drain on a manamissile so yes it was handled
easily...if the spell had been a manabolt the drain would have been
light...do you think that the casting magician should take a wound equal to
the one he deals out? I think that a light drain to deliver a moderate
wound is not overbalanced.

| >The higher target numbers on combat spells would limit there
| >effectiveness in comparison to DM's.
|
| Higher TN's? The average Willpower in SR is three (maybe 2, but I'll
give
| it the benefit of the doubt). This is less than the 4 TN of a damaging
| manipulation. Average Body? Same. Still lower, nice and easy to cast
on.
| There is no downside to the enhanced power that this would give Combat
| Spells. The drain increase is inconsequential, the target numbers better
on
| average than DMs, and the damage unavoidable in almost every case.

Again we as shadowrunners are not fighting average people and you can't
argue that. It would be just as easy to just shoot them if you are
fighting pedestrians. How many runner have body and willpower attributes
lower than four? Not many...and if they do then they usually have another
way of defending themselves or have the lower attributes as a role-playing
device and should expect combat to be extremely dangerous to them
regardless.

| A force 3 manabolt cast at an average person would kill every time
(barring
| some UGLY die rolling) and drain would be resisted easily. I call that
| unbalancing.

A force three manbolt cast at a normal person would do kill everytime as it
is now, and drain would be resisted easily. I fail to see the difference.

-Caric

"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:46:27 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: NightLife <habenir@*CUNIX.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain NO officially [OT]
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><Caric wipes away a tear>
>
>I love you guys.
>
><much gasping as I try to not lose it again>

You're not getting my Bud Light. ;-)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:55:04 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Generation
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 09:36 PM 7/7/97 -0400, MC23 wrote:
>TopCat once dared to write,
>>Here's a suggestion for SR3 which I think would be well received overall...
>>Get rid of the priority-based system and go to the point-based system from
>>the Shadowrun Companion for character generation.

>It has finally come to this. Everyone has been expecting a fight
>between you and me, Topper and until now we have gotten along fine. I
>have to draw the line on the point based system. I do not like the linear
>point based system presented in the companion. I have no problem with the
>concept of a point based system but not the one in the companion at all.

This, of course, begs the questions:

1) What don't you like about the point-based system?

2) Why do you like the priority-based system over the point-based system?

3) Would you rather see the sum-to-ten system used? If so, why?

4) What modifications would it take for a point-based system to be the best
overall choice in your opinion?

I don't think we'll find ourselves in a "fight" here, this subject isn't
really given to those sorts of reactions. There will simply be the "whys"
and "hows" of each opinion. I highly prefer the point-based system for the
reasons I stated earlier and merely wonder why your preferences lie where
they do.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:52:44 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Generation

On Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:09:53 -0500 TopCat <topcat@***.NET> writes:

<<Here's a suggestion for SR3 which I think would be well received
overall...>>


Don't speak too soon, TopCat:)


<<Get rid of the priority-based system and go to the point-based system
from
the Shadowrun Companion for character generation.>>


No. Leave them as-is, with the Points System as an optional rule and
nothing more.


<<It allows for a more diverse sort of character by not confining players
to
"X" points worth of skills, "Y" points worth of attributes, and
"Z"
amount
of starting nuyen and force points. The cost for magical ability is
balanced with the benefits afforded by it as is the cost of metahumanity.
Also, Edges and Flaws can be better worked into characters if this system
is
used.>>


Well, I agree on that point.


<<A good degree of the powergaming problems inherent to SR would be
solved and
character diversity would be achieved with the players getting a chargen
system that can truly be tailored to create an original concept instead
of
one that caters to cookie-cutter character design.>>


Don't take this personally, but that is utter BS, IMO. The point system,
as much as I like it, is more open to abuse than the priority system, by
nature of the flexibility it grants the player. If anything, making the
point based system the standard chargen system would only open the game
up to further powergaming tendencies by opening up further loopholes for
munchkins to abuse. It also requires more thought and knowledge on the
part of a new player. And it makes it much easier for a new player to
screw up.


<<Mages suddenly don't
*have* to have high resources if they want a decent amount of spells or
force points. Cyberware users aren't locked into one million or four
hundred thousand nuyen, they can choose between a few new options. The
system simply works well, while the priority-based system does not.>>


I disagree. While the point-based system is more flexible, I find that
the Priorities system(s) work well enough for just about anything.


<<My biggest peeve of all with SR was character generation and when I saw
the
point-based system in the Shadowrun Companion, I damn near cried with
happiness. I know that a lot of players haven't seen or used this system
yet, but I can't see why anyone wouldn't want to use it once they got a
chance to look at it (detractors of the system feel free to chime in
here).>>


<shrug> I don't think that making the Points system part of the standard
rules would be a good idea, mainly because it's even more open to abuse
than the basic chargen system. And, as much as I like the Edges and
Flaws, they have the same problem. And abuse is one of the things we're
trying to prevent:)


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:55:28 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magical Magic
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Steve Kenson once dared to write,

>OK, I'm getting some good feedback. Here's Survey Question #3...
>
>One comment I've heard a lot of is "magic in Shadowrun should have more of a
>mystical/magical feel to it than it does now." I'm curious about the idea,
>since I don't quite understand it. Since SR magic is currently (IMHO) based
>on about 80% real-world magic theory and 20% fantasy magic (fireballs and
>such) it feels pretty "mystical" to me. I'd like some feedback on the issue.
>Is SR magic "magical" enough? If not, how could it be better?

The thing closest to this that somewhat irritates me is that
everything more or less relates to either hermetic or shamanic in it's
handling, and mostly to shamanic at that. I would love to see something
that breaks that mold or mixes it up at least. Chinese magic promised
that but we only got a teaser out of the Underworld Sourcebook. Sure it's
fine to leave it that way for NPC's but why would that mean that players
can't play someone of Chinese origins who is a magician. There is no need
to limit players to a purely Western role. The cyberpunk genre is one
filled with an ongoing culture clash.
Now this doesn't have to be in SR3 but I would like to see it
somewhere in a FASA publication.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:54:58 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage

Greetings!!!

Actually, the offical reasoning why Pistols do 9M as opposed to 6M is their
use of "Firepower Ammo". No specs on firepower ammo, it just does a better
job and is only manufactured for pistols.

FASA's rationale was that pistols were not powerful enough when they uped the
damage codes to 9M. There had to be a level playing field.

It has nothing to do with round size or anything realistic.

-Bandit
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:04:47 -0700
Reply-To: hernandez@********.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Heavy pistol damage
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Iosthalo said in response to someone whom I forgot:
<snip>
> This all dows derive from the idea of a 9mm pistol being a Heavy Pistol,
> And if the 9mm is a heavy pistol, why aren't there some bigger guns
(aside from
> the Ruger)? What about cannons like the Desert Eagle (which is what I
always
> thought the Ares Predator and Browning Max-power were, thus their
original
> small clip size in first ed.).

I don't think that you could refer to a 9mm as a Heavy Pistol. Yes granted
it has a high velocity, but it doesn't have the stopping power of say a .40
to .45 cal. pistol. Those and larger IMHO are Heavy Pistols. (Ever see the
Desert Eagle .50 cal? Sweet.)
A high velocity round will only punch through target. Whereas the larger
round will impact and the target WILL know he has been hit. (Large chunk
missing, knocked back some).

In the begining Man created God;
and in the image of Man created he him

hernandez@********.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:34:36 -0700
Reply-To: hernandez@********.com
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
Subject: Re: shotguns and silencers
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Hello all, I guess I've lurked long enough. I just had to agree with
Andrew about the shotgun. Seeing as how this is a subject I am familiar
with.

AndrewH said:

<snip>
>It's a hell of an intimidating sight though. Shotguns are pretty evil
looking to
> begin with; this should make chrome-boys scream. Shotguns are not subtle
>weapons, trying to silence one goes against the whole premise of the
>weapon.
<snip>

Being in law enforcement, I can tell you that showing up on scene with a
shotgun is DEFINITELY an attention getter. People tend to not want to argue
with you as much :) But the best is at night when you show up on scene and
bring that old shotgun out of it's carrier and rack a round into the
chamber, (grin) People just tend to stop what they are doing and take
notice. THAT is the universal command of Stop.

In the begining Man created God;
and in the image of Man created he him

hernandez@********.com
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Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:15:13 +1000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: 1st Ed and OOP Modules
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I have the opportunity at the moment to buy myself four or five modules
from a friend's supply, and he's got lots of 1st Ed and OOP modules. I'd
like some suggestions from the listmembers who've played them as to
which would be the best value for money, or the most enjoyable runs.
Private email is probably best.

Thanks, guys...

Lady Jestyr

-----------------------------------------------
All stressed out and no-one to choke...
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:33:34 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
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At 10:57 PM 7/7/97 GMT, Georg wrote:
>Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM> writes:
>> If you have a GM who gives stuff without you having to work for it. Saying
>> that a sam can get wiz gear and lots of cash just by doing a run or two
>> isn't any different than a physad who gets karma off a run or two. You
>> forget that if your GM gives out money and stuff easily, then there's
>> another one that gives out ton's of karma. And there are plenty who are
>> right in the middle. My current GM doesn't hand out nuyen and tech, nor
>> does he hand out karma. Neither would I.

>Of course that is true - but if you play a somewhat clever and skilled
>group it is extremely easy to make some money (heck - used cyberware,
>fetishes, extra data, stollen goods are so easy to acquire and pretty
>easy to sell), while you just cannot even make remotely as much karma.

I allow this, but I don't pay out a whole lot for runs and fairly strictly
enforce the 30% fencing guidleline. In the end, a fair amount of cash is
collected and the karma reward balances out overall.

I tend to give a little heavier on the karma at the beginning of a campaign
and light on the cash. As the characters gain more reknown, they either
take on tougher jobs or they get less karma (what are they really learning
from doing something they've done before now that it's dirt easy?). Most
jobs pay off in nuyen, others don't, some don't pay in anything. No matter
what though (as long as it's even sort of a challenge) the players will get
karma.

>Our GMs tend to be very restrictive on Karma (fortunately we
>have a GM at the moment that is not as restrictive as our usual
>one)... this means the other characters are developing much faster
>than a PA does.

The problem here, as it seems to me, is that your physad probably...

A) Doesn't know how to spend karma to his best benefit
B) Relies far too heavily on or thinks only of Initiation
C) Forgot what money can really do for you
D) Wants to be as powerful as a Street Samurai, without the drawbacks
E) Forgot the perks of physad existence
F) Any combination of the above

Now, the problem could also lie in your GM. Have the physad player explain
his problem with being underpowered compared to everyone else (is he
*really* underpowered or is he just slower than a fully wired samurai and
not as good of an aim?). A good GM will then work with the player to help
him out. Maybe he'll give him a break on Initiation or some extra karma
(karma-for-cash rules, anyone?), maybe he just offers some RP'ing tips,
maybe he'll offer some karma-spending tips that the player hadn't condiered,
maybe he'll shrug and say "sucks to be you". As long as it's something
other than the last, the physad player will be better off than he was before
he took the time to ask.

My physad character (Vagabond) was perhaps the most powerful character on
our Shadowrun team. He wasn't blindingly fast (6+2D6), but he was played
smart and he was very effective at what he did. I didn't try to make him a
front-line samurai, he wouldn't have done well in that role. I didn't try
to make him into a monster-grade initiate, there were better places to spend
his karma. I didn't forget about the nuyen I'd made on runs just because
"physads need karma more".

Money can be used to establish connections, LOTS of them. A runner lives
and dies by the strength and security of his contacts. It can also be used
to get SOTA gear to make life easier on you (a dikoted secure jacket is a
nice investment, likewise a *very good* fake SIN and surveillance gear). It
can also be set aside for a "retirement fund". Money can be used in so many
places for so many things that any character who would discount it because
it isn't karma and he needs karma to initiate should seriously rethink his ways.

If I were your game's physad player, I'd sit down and really think about
what kind of character I was playing. If all that matters to me are
attribute and skill points and levels of Initiation, then there are ways
that I can go about doing that. If actually having a character for any
purpose other than dungeon-crawls is on my mind, then I'd work from that
perspective. I personally work from this perspective now unless trying to
prove a point or for comedy's sake (remember Gun Bunny Deluxe and the Troll
Tank?), but I can't fault someone for playing a dungeon-crawler if that's
what they really want to do.

Anyways, have him consider his character a bit and ask the GM (or even
fellow players) for his opinions and help and I think the situation will
resolve itself painlessly and to the satisfaction of all parties involved.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:39:24 -0400
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Generation
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TopCat once dared to write,

<<taken out of order>>
>I don't think we'll find ourselves in a "fight" here, this subject isn't
>really given to those sorts of reactions. There will simply be the "whys"
>and "hows" of each opinion. I highly prefer the point-based system for the
>reasons I stated earlier and merely wonder why your preferences lie where
>they do.

"Suave, you're so fucking suave!"

>This, of course, begs the questions:
>
>1) What don't you like about the point-based system?

It's linear and not geometric. Linear system are by nature more
prone to abuse. The emphasis of priority of what you take is also greatly
removed. As I've said, a point based system would be fine, but not this
one.

>2) Why do you like the priority-based system over the point-based system?

Because Shadowrun CharGen creates a conceptual feel for the
character. Just by your choices you can start to see where the character
is focused. For me linear point based system is flawed to begin with. If
the cost was on a geometric scale then I would reconsider.

>3) Would you rather see the sum-to-ten system used? If so, why?

Nope. It breaks the priority scale balance.

>4) What modifications would it take for a point-based system to be the best
>overall choice in your opinion?

Like I said, a geometric scale as opposed to a linear scale. The
current priority system is geometric and a point based system should be
as well. It's all about balance.



<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:53:24 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Drain NO officially [OT]

On Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:36:59 -0700 Caric <caric@********.COM> writes:
>| > >And again, Nightlife, sorry if I offended.
>| >
>| > It's time for a group hug everybody. ;-)
>| If you say so <Raven goes around and hugs Nightlife, MC23, Bull,
>| Gurth, Steven and all the others>
>| Think that's enough ;)
>
><Caric wipes away a tear>
>
>I love you guys.
>
><much gasping as I try to not lose it again>

"But you're still not getting my Bud Lite..."

:)
~Tim
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:53:24 EDT
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: SR/ED ties

On Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:07:04 -0500 Jaymz <justin@******.NET> writes:
>At 07:07 PM 7/7/97 +0100, you wrote:
>>Why? What's so special about UCLA????
>I don't have my cal free book around, but there's some sort of screwy
stuff
>in place due to the "magical pranks" UCLA and (Berkley?) sorry, don't
know
>caliornia very well.

I don't know about UCLA, but Berkley and the Santa Cruz areas would fit
that bill quite nicely.
>From the stories I've heard from friends who live there, it's quite an
"interesting" place.

>Using magic is very haphazard and unpredictable in that area.

~Tim
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:13:59 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: sr/ed ties
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 21:17:08 -0400"
<1.5.4.16.19970707211826.1cef8106@***.tiac.net>
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You wrote:
> Also, there was discussion going around about some of the immortal
> characters that would have survived since ED into SR, what about Mestoph the
> Elven Nethermancer, he would be at the forefront of Initiate exploration in
> SR. BTW, personally, I would LOVE to see nethermancy make an appearance into
> SR : )

Hmm, so Mestoph *didn't* actually die in that li'l story at the beginning of
the ED rulebook?

losthalo
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Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:20:45 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Generation
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 07 Jul 1997 21:36:49 -0400"
<199707080137.VAA06484@*********.mindspring.com>
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You wrote:
> It has finally come to this. Everyone has been expecting a fight
> between you and me, Topper and until now we have gotten along fine. I
> have to draw the line on the point based system. I do not like the linear
> point based system presented in the companion. I have no problem with the
> concept of a point based system but not the one in the companion at all.
I like the idea of a points-based rather than priority-based system. What
about the Companion version (since I haven't seen it, the book apparently isn't
carried around here) don't you like? What would you suggest instead?

losthalo