| From: | TopCat <topcat@***.NET> |
|---|---|
| Subject: | Re: [SR3] Combat Spells |
| Date: | Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:23:09 -0500 |
>| But not a damage resistance test like victims of DMs get due to the fact
>| that their damage has to be staged all the way down, the victim of a Combat
>| spell gets his Willpower or Body and that is all. If combat spells were
>| made as powerful as this change would make them, nobody in their right mind
>| would take a DM. All that the opponent gets to resist with is his willpower
>| or (natural) body, which will be considerably lower than his potential die
>| pool for a damage resistance test combined with the use of some armor.
>I don't dispute that, but the higher target number that the combat spell
>will need (generally) will help to make up for it by having fewer
>successes...also if the drain is increased to the full force that makes
>casting those high yield spells very costly for the extra power.
Here's the problem, not every Shadowrun campaign has every player and every
opponent with maximum Willpower and maximum Body. Whereas your characters
may always face such opposition, mine do not. My characters and the
characters of those I game with don't have maxxed Willpower or Body as a
matter of course. I appreciate that aspect of them a great deal as it is
realistic and allows for flexibility in the game.
For the benefit of those realistic non-powergamer, non-munchkin types like
myself, Steve, please do not include the staggering increase to damage that
this rule change would bring.
>I would
>limit elemental effects to only the DM's and so there will still be a
>need/want for them. Spells like clout will always be great because of the
>high yield for low force.
Why care about an elemental effect when you can melt a guy without breaking
a sweat? Besides with Force Drain, DM's will cause more drain than combat
spells just like they do now.
Also, any Stun Spell is better than Clout: no impact armor to mess with, no
range modifiers, less drain...
>Yes the target number will be the same, but the caster won't be able to
>afford to cast those high damage spells nearly as much. Even manabolt
>would do as much damage to you as your target, and you would have to split
>up your pool. I don't even want to get into spells like hellblast.
But here's the part you've missed... they won't have to cast the spell more
than once. It'll kill first-time, all-the-time. So what if you take a
miniscule stun wound? You can sleep it off while the opposition goes into
rigormortis. A killing Manabolt *might* cause a light Stun wound to a
below-average caster. Hellblast will hopefully be gone from the combat
spell section in 3rd edition...
>| Shielding always helps, but it wouldn't help near enough. It does plenty
>| normally, why shouldn't it do so in this situation?
>I don't think shielding should get any better, maybe i'm thinking
>incorrectly here, but for combat spells the shielding adds to the target
>number and the targets resistance dice...when a DM is cast the shielding
>doesn't add to the TN, but the target does get the extra dice to resist.
>At least that's how we use it in our game.
Never said that it should be better. I said that it acts as it's always
acted, it's just that it becomes absolutely necessary if combat spells are
modified as suggested whereas it isn't a necessity as the rules are now.
>| If every person everywhere had a 6 Willpower and someone throwing some
>| Shielding dice their way 24 hours a day, then I could see this
>| modification
>| to the rules being somewhat plausible. The average person in SR has a 3
>| Willpower and doesn't know anyone with magical ability let alone someone
>| who's willing to shield him constantly...
>If you were running against average people it wouldn't matter what you did
>to the magic system you would destroy them every time. If you want to talk
>about mages fighting only non-mages it's still not going to be any more
>deadly because the mage cannot cast as many spells before he is messed up.
>If there is an opposing mage then things get really nasty.
See above... not everyone plays a god-level "Monty Haul" campaign. Also, as
mentioned before, you wouldn't need to cast the spell more than once...
>| >DM's will have lower target numbers, but the opponent gets some
>| >or all of there impact armor.
>| And a full damage resistance test as opposed to a handful of dice from
>| Willpower or Body. Remember that a force 4 (mediocre) spell was cast
>| against a *max* human willpower target and still caused damage without
>| trouble. Drain was handled easily. The target got no damage resistance
>| test just a spell resistance test. Imagine what this would do to anyone
>| without a 6 willpower (90% or more of SR)?
>And as they do so then that's all the fewer combat pool dice they get when
>your buddy shoots them. That was also for a manamissile and the target
>only took a light wound.
And the mage took no drain and the mana missile was cast at a mediocre force
by a mediocre mage at a *max* Willpower target. I'd like to hope that the
best human Willpower out there could withstand a mediocre magical assault...
>| >The drain would be high enough that it would even out.
>| Nowhere near. As it was clearly presented in Steve's example, the drain
>| was handled easily and the target (with max human Willpower) of a mediocre
>| spell was injured.
>We are talking about the drain on a manamissile so yes it was handled
>easily...if the spell had been a manabolt the drain would have been
>light...do you think that the casting magician should take a wound equal to
>the one he deals out? I think that a light drain to deliver a moderate
>wound is not overbalanced.
And the damage would've been Moderate instead of Light to the target. I do
think that the casting magician should indeed take a wound equal to what he
deals out if the target possesses the pinnacle of the target stat.
Truthfully, he should probably take more damage. It should be very
difficult to harm a max Willpower target.
>| >The higher target numbers on combat spells would limit there
>| >effectiveness in comparison to DM's.
>| Higher TN's? The average Willpower in SR is three (maybe 2, but I'll
>| give it the benefit of the doubt). This is less than the 4 TN of a damaging
>| manipulation. Average Body? Same. Still lower, nice and easy to cast
>| on. There is no downside to the enhanced power that this would give Combat
>| Spells. The drain increase is inconsequential, the target numbers better
>| on average than DMs, and the damage unavoidable in almost every case.
>Again we as shadowrunners are not fighting average people and you can't
>argue that. It would be just as easy to just shoot them if you are
>fighting pedestrians. How many runner have body and willpower attributes
>lower than four?
Quite a few and all of them would be killed easily by a mediocre spell cast
by a mediocre mage under the proposed combat spell rules. Remember, not all
of us play "Monty Haul". Some of us like at least a little realism in our
games. If I wanted to play my own little Harlequin, I could, but I hate
that type of gaming and don't respect it or those that would advance it.
> Not many...and if they do then they usually have another
>way of defending themselves or have the lower attributes as a role-playing
>device and should expect combat to be extremely dangerous to them
>regardless.
An average stat is a roleplaying device? If so then anything not average is
a powergaming device. Neither statement is correct for reasons I won't go
into now. An average spell cast by an average mage should have an average
result on the average person. That sounds balanced to me and I'm sure to
many others as well. As the system is now, it emulates this nearly to
perfection. If it were changed, magic would run rampant through any and all
opposition.
From a powergamer perspective, I'd love this. I could kill anything easily.
Yay! From any other perspective, it's munchkin crap (going beyond the rules
to achieve a self-beneficial result at minimal cost).
>| A force 3 manabolt cast at an average person would kill every time
>| (barring some UGLY die rolling) and drain would be resisted easily. I
call >| that unbalancing.
>A force three manbolt cast at a normal person would do kill everytime as it
>is now, and drain would be resisted easily. I fail to see the difference.
The guy would at least have a chance at resisting it under current methods.
He'd have no chance under the proposed system, none at all.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
