From:	"Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
Date:	Fri, 1 May 1998 09:19:38 -0700

----------
> From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Zeitgeists (Ghosts in Time?)
> Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 5:22 PM
>
> At 04:50 PM 4/30/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >Maybe I should just put a paper bag over my head and judge on the Gong
> >Show.
>
> Wouldn't that make you a member of GridSec then? ;-)
>

Oh, you bad person.

> >Might be... Webster's says it's something that embodies the spirit of a
> >time... So I guess the question I have with Uncle Sam is what time
period
> >does he embody? I suppose I could imagine him being the essence of WW2
> >American Patriotism. I guess Zeitgeists would also be fairly regional.
> >Hmmm... I'd imagine, however, that Zeitgeists would be pretty rare,
pretty
> >hard to summon, and most of the older Zeitgeists would be free spirits.
>
> Not to rain on your parade, but the definition of "Zeitgeist" as
"spirit
of
> the times" is merely a rough translation. Zeit means time, Geist means
> ghost or spirit. So it's a literal translation, but it doesn't really
> capture the meaning of the word.
>

Understood. I'm sorry if I explained it poorly. I'm admitedly a bit weak
on the point. The fact that they have actual zeitgeists in the World of
Darkness probably colored my thinking on this one.

> It's a German word that really has no true English equivalent. It's
> something that refers to the general mood or feeling of the times, and is
> usually quite vague and amorphous (like it's definition).
>
> Frag, I think it was one of those damnable German philosophers that
created
> the word, which means that unless you have a doctorate in german
> philosophy, no one is likely to really know what the word means.
>
> But I would argue against anything such as "Zeitgeist" spirits in SR.
> Doesn't make sense in the "official" SR cosmology. And even if it did
make
> sense, I would argue against it because a zeitgeist is so damn hard to
> define, and I don't just mean the word itself but what it is referring
to.
>
> I don't know, it would sort of be like having "happiness" or
"lust" or
> "melancholy" spirits, just as you have Hearth or Forest spirits.
>

Yeah, I got that mood or feeling thing. After I'd posted my original thing
and thought about it, I realized how damnably vague it was. But then, so
are "Spirits of the Fiery Firmament" if you ask me. =) But you did touch
on one of my major influences. Ubiritan's idea of Lumini was what gave me
the idea for this.

The idea I hashed out last night is that my so called "Zeitgeists" are
spirits tied to an object or place that symbolizes an era, time period,
event, whatever. They are very definitely a type of "Spirit of Man".
However, they are more in tune with social trends, and the emotions tied to
an event than they are to physical locations. So, you may not be able to
use them to search for a person in a city, but they may be able to give you
perspective on any influence a person had in their native time period.
These spirits would fit more with the scholars, and maybe the information
brokers, of the SR universe than the runners. Some of the potential ways
that I envisioned it using spirit powers may have some uses, but nuyen for
soy-donuts, I'd put my money on a hearth spirit, city spirit, whatever if I
needed help in a scrap.

I can do a full write up if anyone is curious. I even came up with a sort
of scholarly totem that could summon up these spirits.