From:	"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject:	Re: FASA's On/Off Course?
Date:	Thu, 7 May 1998 11:00:20 -0400

Katt Freyson wrote:
>|> Adam, I respect your work on this list greatly, but that
>|> has got to be
>|> the most moronic phrase in the entire English Language, and
>|> likely quite a
>|> few others. X would still be X if it didn't have Y, it would just be
>|> different.
>
> Phew, I was hesitant in answering Adam's post due to my recent history,
>but was hoping someone else had caught this. If someone had given this
>phrase to my teacher when I was taking Critical Thinking, they would have
>flunked. Basically he is saying P= !P which is not possible.

Err, maybe you should talk to your teacher again... That's not what
he's saying. X and Y are *different*. X != Y. Or do you deny that
Shadowrun would still be Shadowrun without, say, DocWagon? Sure,
DocWagon plays *a part* in the world, but it isn't really necessary.
The world would feel the same 99% of the time, because DocWagon isn't
a requirement for Shadowrun. Now, whether magic is a requirement
for Shadowrun is another question...

> I would believe that Adam was trying to say that Shadowrun without magic
>would be different, but still close enough not to matter.
>
> It is my opinion that this is wrong, very wrong. While it may not be
>apparent all the time, magic in Shadowrun has greatly influenced things. The
>Tir Tan Gire(sp) for example would not exist, and that is a big difference.

Tir Tairngire. Why wouldn't it? You could still have IEs without
magic - it'd just be due to high tech.

>The NANs would not have been able to reclaim any territory. And, the day to
>day things that are not necessarily noticed would be very different.

So the NAN uses nukes and assault rifles instead of volcanoes.

> So I'd say that to state that Shadowrun would be basically the same
>without the magic is being incorrect. But that is my opinion.

Oh, I agree. I don't think that SR without magic would be the same.

> Just because you have scenarios that don't make much use of magic is
>irrelevant, because the magic is there in the background and does influence
>things.

Well, it makes some stuff easier but mainly it makes the world much
more mysterious.

James Ojaste