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From:	NightLife NightLife@********.com
Subject:	Source Vs. Rule (was... MM on SOTA somesuchcrap)
Date:	Mon, 30 Oct 2000 23:05:05 -0500

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>So get a map or three. Hell, this is the Internet Age and quite honestly if
>you are in most of the civilized nations of the world (which outside of
>those, you won't be able to find Shadowrun anyway) you can gain access to
>the Internet. And the Internet is a hell of lot more important nowadays
>than a game so I'm sure you can find reasons and motivations to do something
>to gain the access if you truly want to.

Excuse me. I'm usually a lurker anymore as things have been on bullet train
which doesn't bother to stop unless you have a Fasa press pass but this is
ridiculous. You're telling thing fellow that to run his game he needs to
have Internet access, in addition to that he needs a computer with a
printer or to somehow remember every tidbit photographically. There are
plenty of people ( kids in junior high, high-schoolers, college student
etc.... who only have access to a computer either at their school lab or
the library. Fasa has spewed a whole lot of junk over the last few years
asking for a few maps of the city that been made into a book you're using
isn't much to ask when these book all cost about $20.00. If someone spends
their money on a game they have the right to actually expect things in them
to be useful. Maps are one of the most useful things out there.

>Though I very much agree that the "sourcebook material" is also important
>(background, fluff, filler, etc...), I completely disagree with the
>mentality and approach of individuals such as yourselves. My reason for
>this disagreement in viewpoints?
>
>Simple.
>
>The Veterans also did not have the "sourcebooks" to draw upon with possibly
>one-exception and *THAT* one has been covered already in SR3 (and in many
>ways, far better than the original).
>
>Those of us who started in First Edition had to use our imaginations. We
>didn't have the internet (except for those of us who could gain
>email/newsboard access from University level stuff... which is where I first
>encountered Lester Ward/Wordman now that I think about it).
>
>We didn't have the Universal Brotherhood material. We didn't have quality
>adventures (and don't *even* start with me about Bottled Demon and/or
>Dreamchipper being quality... for their time, perhaps... for the here and
>now... barely usable as toilet paper). We didn't have flushed out volumes
>of information for Tir Tairngire.
>
>We *ONLY* had the material in the *beginning* of the SR1 Hardback/Softbacks
>and ... the Seattle Sourcebook (which btw, is the same pattern of
>developments that have come forth since SR3's started).

So what! This is one of the most elitist line I've ever read. We didn't
have anything to use so you shouldn't either. Bullpucky. That along the
lines I had a hard life so my kids are going to have one too.

>You may not remember, or perhaps you (speaking collectively here, not just
>aimed at you Augustus) are just plain impatient because you here the stories
>and the tales from the rest of us. I don't know. But I *DO* know that the
>development of SR3 is happening at almost exactly, verbatim to the calendar
>dates of release, that happened in First Edition as well.
>
>I can also tell you this.
>
>Anyone who is first coming into Shadowrun, 3RD Edition has a significant
>advantage over the rest of us. Can you figure out what it is yet???
>
>You have *US*. You have the Veterans to draw upon. We (again, speaking
>collectively) fell into a state of infatuation/love with the game.many years
>and far more confusedly than the beginning player of the game has to go
>through now. You the Newbie (YTN) get the ability to ask the rest of us
>questions.
>
>Yes, some of us may not be able to answer every question that comes along.
>So be it, no one can. The only reason that Tom Dowd (if you deemed it
>necessary to call him) had "an answer for everything" is because he viewed
>the entirety of Shadowrun as *HIS* game. And as such, he answered those
>questions as any GM might do so in their own game as well.

Jeze Louise. You have us. I've been around the block since 1st edition too
but this is ridiculous. You don't need source material because the veterans
have had to make it up. The veterans didn't have a source book and got
along just fine without it. As for their release schedule. They go ahead
and push products back because they know that every Fasacist will rally to
their defense and say hey give them some more time they're working hard and
they're just human. Sure deadlines get missed but as a paying customer you
should be allowed to raise some hell without everybody and their mother
jumping on your back a force feeding you a piece of their mind. If you late
to work expect to get docked. But because of the general opinion Fasa
doesn't. I don't care if you're Mike's best bud or something like that.
They're a company it about time they started to act like one.

>And you know what, I can tell you from experience as one of those people who
>called Tom on more than a few occasions, that his calls often just did NOT
>coincide with the rules in the books or even (as I also found out from
>experience) didn't even match his previous "answers" he'd given to me.
>
>SR3 is not "Mulvihillrun" (word taken from an old joke other members of this
>list may remember about "Keithrun"). When a question about SR3 comes up,
>he, Rob or even many of the Freelancers/Playtesters are likely to ultimately
>come down to one of just a few responses.
>
>Is it in a book? If its not, why not and can we fix it?
>
>Does your thoughts mesh with your own game? If so, then you aren't doing
>anything wrong... you're playing the game the way it works best for you and
>your players.
>
>Is it something I even have an answer for? If not, then lets see if we can
>at least figure it out together.
>
>Geesh, I realize that many people new to role-playing games have a
>significant trouble in being "an individual". That is ultimately what this
>is coming down to. Do you want to a run a game "with the pack", or
"that is
>going to be like the games that FASA is producing"? Or are you going to run
>"Your own Individually Flavored Game"?

That is complete and utter drivel. What ever he wants he is a paying
customer who regardless of his style or lack there of is entitled to say
I'm paying x amount of dollars here a book. I'd like to see some of "Y".

>If *I*, as a GM, can't find anything in one of the books about somewhere in
>the World of Shadowrun-3, I go looking. Maybe I'm too lazy to look even..
>at that point I do what I've been doing now for 11 years or so.
>
>I make it up.

Hat's off to you. He's not asking for an entire world to pre-made for him
just some useful supplements.

>I keep playing the game. So what if FASA comes along later and produces
>some material that is different than what I did (trust me on this, I was
>told specifically why my Aztechnology submission for Corporate Download
>didn't make the cut for example and it is because I saw Aztechnology in a
>far different light than what was going to work in the "canon" gameverse).
>
>Now I realize that it is also frustrating. Lord how I do remember being
>frustrated for not knowing certain things that would have made the games I
>was running or even playing so much smoother. I remember how I wish I
>didn't have to "make up" stuff for St. Louis MO when it came time for the
>"Ubyr Games of 1999" because the I knew that eventually the players would
>wind up going that direction. I still did it. And hell, I can guarantee
>you that the stuff I made up wound up capturing my players attention far
>better than anything FASA would have the ability to come up with. I
>remember wishing I had more than just "mere rumors" to go on when I was
>running my first "Aztlan Summerfest" PBEM almost 9 years ago now, but in the
>end, I made shit up that worked for the games I was running and could keep
>my players enjoying themselves (my personal goal as a GM).

That's great for you. Not everyone is capable or has the time to do all this.

>I also have paid some very close attention to the books that have come out
>since the release of SR3. I have noted the sheer volume of "fluff" and
>"filler" that is in those books. What, you mean you have to have it spelled
>out for you? You have to see the conflicts that are brewing on the Second
>Tier megacorporations that threaten the balance of power one of the megas
>has established for itself??? I'm sorry, I'm going to tell you the same
>thing I tell those that ask me (and some of my players for that matter).
>
>"Go back and read the books, its obvious to me at least you haven't let your
>own imaginations run loose enough."
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>J. Keith Henry ("K" "NeoJudas")

K as somebody who has met you I can say I'm surprised. This fellow has a
valid opinion and one that I happen to back whole heartedly. As some who
watched this list develop into factions and what not. The Fasacist over
here, the newbies over their, the friends of the Fasacists right next to
them, the writers for SR one row of seats above, old timers under Gurth's
stairs etc........ Now it a place where sides decide what get talked about,
who can or can't say something in particular. It's become who buddy buddy
with Mike this month or who's got their submission printed to Fasa who's
accorded more say and lienency. I can remember when Spike would tear into
somebody without out fear of retribution because he was friends with this
group over here and they where on the DLOH Christmas card list. I can also
remember when things where somewhat fair, before this elitist attitude
overtook the whole list and half of those who used to be here left. It's a
sad thing. I also realize this will probably get me banned but I don't care
anymore.

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<html>
<blockquote type=cite cite>So get a map or three.  Hell, this is the
Internet Age and quite honestly if 
you are in most of the civilized nations of the world (which outside
of 
those, you won't be able to find Shadowrun anyway) you can gain access
to 
the Internet.  And the Internet is a hell of lot more important
nowadays 
than a game so I'm sure you can find reasons and motivations to do
something 
to gain the access if you truly want to. 
</blockquote> 
Excuse me. I'm usually a lurker anymore as things have been on bullet
train which doesn't bother to stop unless you have a Fasa press pass but
this is ridiculous. You're telling thing fellow that to run his game he
needs to have Internet access, in addition to that he needs a computer
with a printer or to somehow remember every tidbit photographically.
There are plenty of people ( kids in junior high, high-schoolers, college
student etc.... who only have access to a computer either at their school
lab or the library. Fasa has spewed a whole lot of junk over the last few
years asking for a few maps of the city that been made into a book you're
using isn't much to ask when these book all cost about $20.00. If someone
spends their money on a game they have the right to actually expect
things in them to be useful. Maps are one of the most useful things out
there. 
 
<blockquote type=cite cite>Though I very much agree that the
"sourcebook material" is also important 
(background, fluff, filler, etc...), I completely disagree with the 
mentality and approach of individuals such as yourselves.  My reason
for 
this disagreement in viewpoints? 
 
Simple. 
 
The Veterans also did not have the "sourcebooks" to draw upon
with possibly 
one-exception and *THAT* one has been covered already in SR3 (and in
many 
ways, far better than the original). 
 
Those of us who started in First Edition had to use our
imaginations.  We 
didn't have the internet (except for those of us who could gain 
email/newsboard access from University level stuff... which is where I
first 
encountered Lester Ward/Wordman now that I think about it). 
 
We didn't have the Universal Brotherhood material.  We didn't have
quality 
adventures (and don't *even* start with me about Bottled Demon
and/or 
Dreamchipper being quality... for their time, perhaps... for the here
and 
now... barely usable as toilet paper).  We didn't have flushed out
volumes 
of information for Tir Tairngire. 
 
We *ONLY* had the material in the *beginning* of the SR1
Hardback/Softbacks 
and ... the Seattle Sourcebook (which btw, is the same pattern of 
developments that have come forth since SR3's started). 
</blockquote> 
So what! This is one of the most elitist line I've ever read. We didn't
have anything to use so you shouldn't either. Bullpucky. That along the
lines I had a hard life so my kids are going to have one too. 
 
<blockquote type=cite cite>You may not remember, or perhaps you (speaking
collectively here, not just 
aimed at you Augustus) are just plain impatient because you here the
stories 
and the tales from the rest of us.  I don't know.  But I *DO*
know that the 
development of SR3 is happening at almost exactly, verbatim to the
calendar 
dates of release, that happened in First Edition as well. 
 
I can also tell you this. 
 
Anyone who is first coming into Shadowrun, 3RD Edition has a
significant 
advantage over the rest of us.  Can you figure out what it is
yet??? 
 
You have *US*.  You have the Veterans to draw upon.  We (again,
speaking 
collectively) fell into a state of infatuation/love with the game.many
years 
and far more confusedly than the beginning player of the game has to
go 
through now.  You the Newbie (YTN) get the ability to ask the rest
of us 
questions. 
 
Yes, some of us may not be able to answer every question that comes
along. 
So be it, no one can.  The only reason that Tom Dowd (if you deemed
it 
necessary to call him) had "an answer for everything" is
because he viewed 
the entirety of Shadowrun as *HIS* game.  And as such, he answered
those 
questions as any GM might do so in their own game as well. 
</blockquote> 
Jeze  Louise. You have us. I've been around the block since 1st
edition too but this is ridiculous. You don't need source material
because the veterans have had to make it up. The veterans didn't have a
source book and got along just fine without it. As for their release
schedule. They go ahead and push products back because they know
that every Fasacist will rally to their defense and say hey give them
some more time they're working hard and they're just human. Sure
deadlines get missed but as a paying customer you should be allowed to
raise some hell without everybody and their mother jumping on your back a
force feeding you a piece of their mind. If you late to work expect to
get docked. But because of the general opinion Fasa doesn't. I don't care
if you're Mike's best bud or something like that. They're a company it
about time they started to act like one. 
 
<blockquote type=cite cite>And you know what, I can tell you from
experience as one of those people who 
called Tom on more than a few occasions, that his calls often just did
NOT 
coincide with the rules in the books or even (as I also found out
from 
experience) didn't even match his previous "answers" he'd given
to me. 
 
SR3 is not "Mulvihillrun" (word taken from an old joke other
members of this 
list may remember about "Keithrun").  When a question
about SR3 comes up, 
he, Rob or even many of the Freelancers/Playtesters are likely to
ultimately 
come down to one of just a few responses. 
 
Is it in a book?  If its not, why not and can we fix it? 
 
Does your thoughts mesh with your own game?  If so, then you aren't
doing 
anything wrong... you're playing the game the way it works best for you
and 
your players. 
 
Is it something I even have an answer for?  If not, then lets see if
we can 
at least figure it out together. 
 
Geesh, I realize that many people new to role-playing games have a 
significant trouble in being "an individual".  That is
ultimately what this 
is coming down to.  Do you want to a run a game "with the
pack", or "that is 
going to be like the games that FASA is producing"?  Or are you
going to run 
"Your own Individually Flavored Game"? 
</blockquote> 
That is complete and utter drivel. What ever he wants he is a
paying customer who regardless of his style or lack there of is
entitled to say I'm paying x amount of dollars here a book. I'd like to
see some of "Y". 
 
<blockquote type=cite cite>If *I*, as a GM, can't find anything in one of
the books about somewhere in 
the World of Shadowrun-3, I go looking.  Maybe I'm too lazy to look
even.. 
at that point I do what I've been doing now for 11 years or so. 
 
I make it up. 
</blockquote> 
Hat's off to you. He's not asking for an entire world to pre-made for him
just some useful supplements. 
 
<blockquote type=cite cite>I keep playing the game.  So what if FASA
comes along later and produces 
some material that is different than what I did (trust me on this, I
was 
told specifically why my Aztechnology submission for Corporate
Download 
didn't make the cut for example and it is because I saw Aztechnology in
a 
far different light than what was going to work in the "canon"
gameverse). 
 
Now I realize that it is also frustrating.  Lord how I do remember
being 
frustrated for not knowing certain things that would have made the games
I 
was running or even playing so much smoother.  I remember how I wish
I 
didn't have to "make up" stuff for St. Louis MO when it came
time for the 
"Ubyr Games of 1999" because the I knew that eventually the
players would 
wind up going that direction.  I still did it.  And hell, I can
guarantee 
you that the stuff I made up wound up capturing my players attention
far 
better than anything FASA would have the ability to come up with. 
I 
remember wishing I had more than just "mere rumors" to go on
when I was 
running my first "Aztlan Summerfest" PBEM almost 9 years ago
now, but in the 
end, I made shit up that worked for the games I was running and could
keep 
my players enjoying themselves (my personal goal as a GM). 
</blockquote> 
That's great for you. Not everyone is capable or has the time to do all
this. 
 
<blockquote type=cite cite>I also have paid some very close attention to
the books that have come out 
since the release of SR3.  I have noted the sheer volume of
"fluff" and 
"filler" that is in those books.  What, you mean you have
to have it spelled 
out for you?  You have to see the conflicts that are brewing on the
Second 
Tier megacorporations that threaten the balance of power one of the
megas 
has established for itself???  I'm sorry, I'm going to tell you the
same 
thing I tell those that ask me (and some of my players for that
matter). 
 
"Go back and read the books, its obvious to me at least you haven't
let your 
own imaginations run loose enough." 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 
J. Keith Henry ("K"
"NeoJudas")</blockquote> 
K as somebody who has met you I can say I'm surprised. This fellow has a
valid opinion and one that I happen to back whole heartedly. As some who
watched this list develop into factions and what not. The Fasacist over
here, the newbies over their, the friends of the Fasacists right next to
them, the writers for SR one row of seats above, old timers under Gurth's
stairs etc........ Now it a place where sides decide what get talked
about, who can or can't say something in particular. It's become who
buddy buddy with Mike this month or who's got their submission printed to
Fasa who's accorded more say and lienency. I can remember when Spike
would tear into somebody without out fear of retribution because he was
friends with this group over here and they where on the DLOH Christmas
card list. I can also remember when things where somewhat fair, before
this elitist attitude overtook the whole list and half of those who used
to be here left. It's a sad thing. I also realize this will probably get
me banned but I don't care anymore. 
</html>

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