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Message no. 1
From: "Michael R. Goldberg" <mrgoldbe@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: A spirit's drone?
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 00:41:33 -0500
***** INTERNAL: MagicNet
>>>>>[ A spirit, that I once knew, mentioned that he enjoyed inhabiting
various mundane's bodies and forcing them to do activites outside their
normal daily rituals.

His comments have made me very curious. What would happen if his
target was a fully active magician (of whatever tradition)? Would a
mage be able to use themselves as a sort of containment cell for the
rouge spirit? If so, what would be the side effects? ]<<<<<
-- Dr. Andrew S. Kalvut <06:29:49/03-MAY-59>

***** INTERNAL: MagicNet
>>>>>[ Straying from your normal research, Dr. Kalvut?
]<<<<<
-- Peter Hallsworth <06:30:20/03-MAY-59>

***** INTERNAL: MagicNet
>>>>>[ Perhaps, Peter. Perhaps, I should explain more. A co-worker in
the philosophy department mentioned that spirits inhabiting metahumans
bodies is little more than a corporation implanting a device into the
body of a wage slave and telling them that if they act contrary to the
corporation's wishes, they will go to kingdom come, so to speak.

I started to seriously question whether the spirit's actions are just a
benign pranks or a precursor to slavery. Especially after hearing what
my co-worker thought and rumors of what the former aquaintence (the
previously mentioned spirit) is currently doing. If it is a prelude to
slavery, then I really need to understand what possible solutions to
the situation are. ]<<<<<
-- Dr. Andrew S. Kalvut <06:37:50/03-MAY-59>
Message no. 2
From: Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: A spirit's drone?
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 14:30:20 -0700
*****Internal: MagicNet
>>>>>[In the better documented cases of entity possession (usually found
to be some form of free spirit), said possession was usually initiated by
the spirit, and the spirit assumed control of the body so possessed. The
combined entity possessed the knowledge and abilities of both beings, but
the overriding personality was not that of person possessed. The
psychological effects on the spirit/metahuman fusion were discussed in an
interesting paper by Chung et al. >>reference<<.

It would seem the process of being possessed, the person either willingly
submits to the control of the spirit, or is somehow forced to submit
themselves. There is no real barganing, and your "cortex bomb" analogy
fails. It would be more akin to implanting what cyberwear it would take
to allow another person to take over control of your body and memories
while your consciousness remains helpless inside your mind. Ethically
speaking, this could potentially go beyond the indignity and violation of
slavery, because while evidence suggests that the possessed can "fight"
their possessor, they really have no control over their body's actions and
while possessed, have no recourse or ability to deny the wishes of the
possessor. On the other hand, due to the "endowment" that the possessed
body gains while under the influence of a spirit >>reference<< as well as
the benefits to be gained by the spirit >>reference<< there have been
reports of willing or coerced submission to possession on the part of
those possessed to create the more powerful hybrid entity. Needless to
say, the dangers would be significant, but if say the spirit was otherwise
bound or indebted to a third party I can see some thaumaturgical
researchers of certain companies being foolish enough to attempt this.

I have no knowledge of any type of "containment" such that a person,
mundane or magically active could submit to possession yet suppress a free
spirit, rather than the other way around. And again, the potential for
such a thing to go wildly wrong places it in the realm of folly. I would
assume that it would be easier for a full mage to resist the initial
attempt at possession by a rogue spirit, but why would one wish to contain
a spirit rather than banish it, if it is that much of a dangerous threat?
Hmmm...unless someone was attempting to gain similar benefits to what a
free spirit gains by possesion, effectively possessing the possessor. But
again, I wouldn't quite know how to pull something like that off, but it
does sound like something a corp group would be foolish enough to try.

As for the free spirits possession of people, I would personally take its
invasions of other people to be as serious as any other type of severe
magical coersion, no matter how benign the intent or result. Having one's
body forcibly taken over by another does not seem to me to be much of a
practical joke. As I described before, I do not see the matter as being
similar to slavery, which seems to imply threat and acceptance of mastery.
It is more appropriate to analogize the situation as more like a
puppeteering, seeing as the marionette has no control over its actions,
whether it desires those actions or not.

The solution to the situation is rather basic: exorcism. While various
traditions may disagree on semantics and mechanics: >>reference list<< the
technique which you may be familar is usually a modified form of
banishment. Although, with the spirit attuned to a member of the physical
plane, it has been found that exorcism is usually less effective against a
spirit than a pure banishing >>reference<<.

What any of this has to do with or implies for the "possesionary"
traditions (i.e. Voudoun) is still a matter of heated debate. I don't
mean for my conjecture here to imply anything regarding those.]<<<<<
-- Michael <14:20:28/05-03-59 PDT>
Message no. 3
From: Jaimie Nicholson <jaimie.nicholson@********.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: A spirit's drone?
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:12:47 +1200
*****INTERNAL: Magicnet
>>>>>[Michael mentioned possessing the possessor... I knew a shaman who
did something along those lines... his ally was conjured with the ability
to inhabit a human body which, according to Simms' excellent series of
papers on the ally spirit, >>reference<<, is possible, but for the fact
that the ally's power to inhabit is too weak to "kick" sentient creatures
out of their bodies. However, by astral projection, the shaman in question
allowed the spirit to possess his body, so that barrier was overcome. Since
he controlled the ally, and the ally controlled his body, there was some
initial confusion, and I belive they eventually decided that they were in
fact one person. Unfortunately the fellow was involved with criminal
elements, and was killed in a shoot out before any serious studies could
get beyond their initial stages.]<<<<<
-- Tait@*****.vic.ac.nz <13:11:31/04-MAY-59 NZT>
Message no. 4
From: Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: A spirit's drone?
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 20:05:28 -0700
*****Internal: Magicnet
>>>>>[Tait:

Hmmm. I can think of one possible explanation for what you describe, but
not exactly the way you describe it. In the Simms' work, he does a decent
job of covering the basics of an ally as a "familiar" but as far as I
know, it shouldn't work with sentients willing or not, their aura has too
strong a hold on the body to be displaced. But you say in this case a
displacement didn't occur. I guess if he figured this one out, it would
have been an interesting advance.

However, there is also the possibility that he wasn't...um...familiarizing
himself with his ally (please excuse the pun). There have been several
reported cases in which in the synchronization between ally and summoner
in what is (perhaps mis)named "aiding sorcery" caused an effect where the
summoner and ally were seen to merge their auras. I say misname because
the process is _very_ different in several crucial ways from the technique
of the same name that can be employed with elemental spirits. The best
documented case of this can be found in >>reference<<. It could be
possible that in the case you mention, he simply synchronized with his
ally and then never wanted to disconnect. I can fathom how it would be
quite tempting.

The debate of ally-as-extension-of-self versus ally-as-unique-entity is a
fierce one. I happen to have strong reasons to fall into the latter camp,
myself. Although, in my experience, I am forced to wonder how much the
ally binding process effects the spirit in question. I don't see it being
nearly as complete as the former camp, in that I do not believe the spirit
summoned is completely remade in the image of the ally formula, and is in
effect a new being. That would be asking too much of the formula, although
I suppose that would also have a lot to do with the formula and the spirit
being summoned. Anyone else care to throw their pointed hat (or masque
for that matter) into the ring here? ]<<<<<
-- Michael <20:06:08/05-03-59 PDT>
Message no. 5
From: Kristling Ravenwing <kristling@*******.CROSSWINDS.NET>
Subject: Re: A spirit's drone?
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 01:39:40 -0400
*****Internal: MAGICKNet
>>>>>[ Doctor Kalvut, my only thought on this:
Don't try.]<<<<<
---Kristling (The Weird) Ravenwing <OOT/OOS>
Message no. 6
From: "Michael R. Goldberg" <mrgoldbe@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: A spirit's drone?
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:45:59 -0500
***** INTERNAL: MagicNet
>>>>>[ Kristling Ravenwing --

While I thank you for your opinion, I am sorry to say that it is
meaningless to me unless you explain your logic. If science and magick
were based solely on the adage of what you recommend, we would never
have any progress.

Now, some here have mentioned it is folly to do what I have asked about
and I respect that, but that in itself doesn't resolve my quandry. As
such, I fear, that my problem is still looking for a solution. And
despite how foolish the containment idea maybe, it is still sounding
like my best chance. ]<<<<<
-- Dr. Andrew S. Kalvut <06:43:50/16-MAY-59>

***** INTERNAL: MagicNet
>>>>>[ You could always hire consultants to do the work of banishing
your malignant spirit. Of course, there are no guarantees in using the
services of others. ]<<<<<
-- Michael Walker <06:45:27/16-MAY-59>

***** INTERNAL: MagicNet
>>>>>[ I dislike the thought of hiring others to do a job that I
wouldn't want to do. ]<<<<<
-- Dr. Andrew S. Kalvut <06:46:53/16-MAY-59>

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