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From:	"Mark L. Neidengard" <mneideng@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:19:36 -0800

Message no. 1 >>>>>[Another vote in favor of the "being in orbit doesn't kill
mages". Mind
you, I didn't to see Astrally or anything, but just _being_ there didn't
cause any problems.]<<<<<
-- Jason Tylor <20:18:24 / 03-02-59>

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:12:26 +0000

Message no. 2 >>>>>[That seems to be the general consensus Mr. Tylor. Simply
travelling into space does not present any problems for teh awakened of
this world. i'd be curious I must say to know how a person of, erm, is
it "dual nature"?? would react, if they also are able to travel in this
environment safely, then it would indicate that limited astral activity
should be possible. Full projection (I do hope that's the correct
phrase) might be more difficult, and the little documentation that I can
discover indicates that it is this that causes the damage.

I should think though that without a Gaeasphere (as someone called it)
that magic itself would be severely limited in it's power and
capabilities. Maybe somebody here knows differently?]<<<<<
-- Doofus <19:12:09/03-03-59>

From:	"Mark L. Neidengard" <mneideng@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:32:48 -0800

Message no. 3 >>>>>[There are several case studies of mages who attempted to Astrally
project and received some sort of profound psychological shock, see
<REFERENCES> for the journal articles. On the general principle that mana
is engendered by the Gaiasphere, one can postulate several good reasons why
space (outside the Gaiasphere as we understand it) could pose problems. On
the other hand, our knowledge of how mana is generated and how it interacts
with the Astral form is still incomplete at best. ]<<<<<
-- Jason Tylor <15:29:02 / 03-03-59>

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:35:00 -0500

Message no. 4 >>>>>[Most interesting and highly accurate Mr. Tylor. We simply don't know
enough to accurately state why there are such difficulties in space.

I suspect that those that claim to have accessed the astral plane while in
space to either be deluded or lying; perhaps both. There is strong causal
evidence that an active connection to astral energy has extreme affects on
the magician in question, both physically and psychologically.

Why this is so is unclear; there are other theories other than the popular
gaiasphere position currently en vogue among today's researchers. Some
believe that the astral plane exists in space, but far different from our
own comfortable plane; something like the difference between a calm lagoon
and the bottom of Mariana's Trench. Other's go so far as to claim that
space is the home for scary monsters, waiting for poor innocent magicians
to wander up into space and then gobble them up whole!

Even though that last theory is utterly ridiculous, given our current lack
of understanding of the basic mechanics of magic, it has almost as much
validity as the far more popular gaiasphere theory.]<<<<<
--the Dark Stranger<17:09:02/03-03-59>

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowtk@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:57:59 +0000

Message no. 5 >>>>>['Scuse me, Mr Stranger, but I've been there and I've done that.
While I've been accused of many things, being a liar isn't one of them
(at least not by people who still have most of their teeth in their
mouth, instead of halfway down their oesophagus) and I _have_ accessed
the astral plane while outside the Earth's gaiasphere.

I will concede that I came back crazier than I left.

And if you haven't been up there, don't joke about the Darkness. It's
indifferent and uncaring and hungry. But it exists.]<<<<<
-- The Mighty Quinn <00:57:41/03-04-59>

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowtk@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:47:46 +0000

Message no. 6 >>>>>[I travelled space okay, did magic out of Earth's gaiasphere there
(not well, I admit, and I had a migraine for days afterwards) and even
astrally projected.

The Moon's pretty in astral. Cold and clean: dead, but beautiful anyway.
But the darkness Outside is... hungry. Things live there, and they are
Not Nice.

"I felt a great disturbance in the Force." Or maybe that was just a bad
burrito.

Anyway, you know the bit in 2001, where Dave goes outside the ship
without a helmet, because he knows he can survive a little while in
vacuum as long as he's quick and careful? That's what being astral in
space felt like.

Or, has anyone sailed a small boat out of sight of land in bad weather?
So you don't know any directions, and all you can see is gunmetal ocean
heaving around you? And you suddenly realise how the sea doesn't give a
damn, it's not that it wants to kill you, it's just that it could care
less about you if you get in its way?

That's how space felt. You're not going to die just by being there, but
you've got zero room to be careless. It's _dangerous_ up there.

But damn, the Moon is beautiful from astral space.

Does that make me a true lunatic? :)]<<<<<
-- The Mighty Quinn <00:47:26/03-04-59>

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:35:38 -0500

Message no. 7 >>>>>[Madame Quinn, don't dare to lecture me about the Darkness. I have
been places and seen...things...that would drive you quite stark raving
mad, not just the little mania you claim to suffer from. So hold your tongue.

Perhaps you lie. Perhaps you honestly believe the lie. And perhaps you
indeed speak the truth. I will not say decisively either way.

But do not push me child.]<<<<<
-- the Dark Stranger <01:57:41/03-04-59>

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Wed, 4 Mar 1998 01:28:54 +0000

Message no. 8 >>>>>[Heh, Yeah, I suppose that might make you a lunatic, Lady Quinn,
though I would certainly be the last person to say that to your face.

Maybe you should think about documenting your experience in space, and
your astral findings. They might be valuable to others. Publish them
here in this node, I'm sure they'll be torn apart by the rabid readers
and passed across to other nodes.

I would probably say it was a burrito, though with you, who knows?]<<<<<
-- Doofus <01:28:13/03-04-59>

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowtk@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:09:40 +0000

Message no. 9 >>>>>[Who's lecturing? The Darkness is there. Deal with it as you see
fit. And who's lying? I have spoken and it is so. I might be wrong, but
I say what I saw.

Take a break, Mr the Dark Stranger. You don't have to be a dickhead
_every_ day of your life.]<<<<<
-- The Mighty Quinn <02-:08:43/03-04-59>

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Wed, 4 Mar 1998 01:31:59 +0000

Message no. 10 >>>>>[Thankyou for the reference Mr. Tylor, I appreciate it. My
knowledge is sadly lacking in these areas. I shall enjoy browsing the
data there.

Unfortunately until a better understanding of how magic operates within
a gaeasphere it is unlikely that we'll be able to understand how it
operates outside of one.

Is it possible that the solar winds I spoke of earlier, may not be the
reason for the tearing of an astral body, but that the apparent lack of
mana prevents the astral form from maintaining it's stability and it
simply begins to dissipate?]<<<<<
-- Doofus <01:31:11/03-04-59>

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Wed, 4 Mar 1998 01:35:29 +0000

Message no. 11 >>>>>[Your words have an interesting sound to them Dark Stranger, the
name seems familiar somehow - you weren't present in Seattle in 57/58
were you? Fighting bugs or something? Anyway, I digress. What you say
is interesting enough to prompt a reply and a request. i don't suppose
you'd have references where I could access the information you mention.
It's a sort of hobby of mine - finding out about things that is, and
magic is most definately one of my weakest points. Any references and
information sources you are aware of would be splendid.]<<<<<
-- Doofus <01:35:42/03-04-59>

From:	"Mark L. Neidengard" <mneideng@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:54:04 -0800

Message no. 12 >>>>>[Doofus: it's possible. There have been a small number of published
experiments with lower-than-normal mana environments, but so far noone in the
literature has done anything more than hypothesize. What would be nice is to
to able to create a null-mana zone under controlled conditions, but so far
this hasn't happened. ]<<<<<
-- Jason Tylor <19:42:14 / 03-03-59>

*****PRIVATE: Jason Tylor
>>>>>[I suppose you're right not to call the Calcutta Experiment
"controlled"
conditions, seeing as how the Null Zone only lasted for 95 seconds before
becoming unstable and polluting the entire laboratory. Not exactly the sort
of experiment one is eager to repeat, is it?]<<<<<
-- Jean L'Trec <20:11:35 / 03-03-59>

*****PRIVATE: Jean L'Trec
>>>>>[No. I'm still not sure how you folks managed to keep the lid on that
one....the background count should have been massive. ]<<<<<
-- Jason Tylor <20:23:12 / 03-03-59>

*****PRIVATE: Jason Tylor
>>>>>[We have our ways. You should know that now.
>}]<<<<<
-- Jean L'Trec <20:27:56 / 03-03-59>

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:44:36 -0500

Message no. 13 >>>>>[You have spoken and it is so? Interesting statement child. And what
do you know of the "Darkness?" Merely walking upon the astral surface of
the moon hardly qualifies as knowledge of the "Darkness."

But even I grow tired of taunting, especially a child. Good day Madame
Quinn. Fight your darkness as you choose.]<<<<<
-- the Dark Stranger <09:21:43/03-04-59>

*****PRIVATE: Draig Un
>>>>>[The general level of knowledge would appear to have risen in the last
several years. Where this knowledge comes from is unclear; this "Mighty
Quinn" is an associate of the shifter, but several others have claimed
knowledge. It is difficult to substantiate their claims of course; they
could just be playing the character of all-knowing magician. But it is
disturbing none the less.

I have offered assistance to the shifter in her upcoming battle against
"the dark storm that is brewing." It should be an excellent gauge of not
only her knowledge, but of the strength of her opponents, whoever they
prove themselves to be.]<<<<<
-- Draig Dau <09:35:23/03-04-59>

*****PRIVATE: Draig Dau
>>>>>[It would appear that there are players other than the ones we know
of. Find the source of Lilith's knowledge, and that of her associate. The
rest are irrelevant at this juncture.]<<<<<
-- Draig Un <time/date stamp corrupted>

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:46:18 -0500

Message no. 14 >>>>>[Doofus? What an unfortunate nom de guerre.

Was I in Seattle in 2057 or 2058 fighting "bugs?" I think not. I was
elsewhere at the time. Perhaps you refer to an earlier date, or to someone
else.

What specifically do you refer to? Any careful search of MagicNet will
reveal theories contrary to those popularly held, most of which are backed
by very stringent research. The point was merely that we do not know.

Or do you refer to my comment about spirits? It has been my own
experience, and of a number of other associates, that elementals cannot be
called to certain death; one obvious example should be the calling of a
fire elemental whilst traveling the metaplane of water. The fire spirit,
despite being bound, will not cross the metaplanar boundaries as commanded.
Once back "home," the spirit is still bound and will serve as would be
expected. Again, with a careful search on MagicNet, this too is backed up
by stringent research. Which means that while it is likely true, it
doesn't mean that other conflicting theories are false.]<<<<<
-- the Dark Stranger <09:35:42/03-04-59>

From:	Brion Wauters <stu2204@****.COCO.CC.AZ.US>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:12:12 -0700

Message no. 15 >>>>>[Okay, this is just a layman's question, but couldn't we bring the
"gaiasphere" with us into space? Would a sufficently terraformed
planet, or a domed colony with a major greenhouse be enough for mages to
work their magic off-planet?]<<<<<
-- Irish <12:11:45/04-03-59>

From:	"Mark L. Neidengard" <mneideng@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space
Date:	Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:37:38 -0800

Message no. 16 >>>>>[Artificial gaiaspheres should be possible. There are several people
working in theoretical metaphysics trying to figure out what the "critical
mass" of mana-sources would be to cause such a thing to be stable; if we're
lucky something the size of a reasonable space station or something could
support it... ]<<<<<
-- Jason Tylor <13:34:54 / 03-04-59>

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowtk@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:31:52 +0000

Message no. 17 >>>>>[Your father was a hedgehog and your mother smelled of
elderberries.

And it's Second Lieutenant the Lady Susan E. Rodriguez, Baroness of
Glamis, 15 Para (TAVR) HSD KT, if you want to get all formal on me.
Addressing me as "Madame" is grossly incorrect and betrays a careless
lack of research.

Now go away, before I taunt you again.]<<<<<
-- The Mighty Quinn <21:18:45/03-04-59>

*****PRIVATE: the Dark Stranger
>>>>>[Listen, pal, the only reason I'm telling you this is because I saw
the footage from Platina, and that's only a finite credit balance, so
ease off on the attitude before you get an Aldershot kiss for your
pains.

There are beings that gnaw at the walls of reality. They seek the minds
of the weak, the greedy, the ambitious, the cruel. They make gateways,
they open doors, they open cracks and erode them like flowing water,
widening the path for others of their kind to follow.

What do they want? I don't know. Madness, chaos, death. Maybe Wraiths
are manifestations of their kind, maybe not, I'm not a theoretician. But
I've fought one such face-to-face, and won, and I'll find the bastard
and finish him off.

Meanwhile, you sit on your arse pontificating all you like. Some of us
have work to do, so either roll up your sleeves and help, or go away and
be quiet.

And take that patronising attitude, fold it up small, smear it with
Vaseline, and shove it up your ass while you're at it.]<<<<<
-- The Mighty Quinn <21:28:45/03-04-59>

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:53:13 -0500

Message no. 18 >>>>>[Madame Quinn, if nothing else, you are highly amusing. I can
understand why the Lynch's keep you around.]<<<<<
-- the Dark Stranger <21:58:45/03-04-59>

*****PRIVATE: The Mighty Quinn
>>>>>[Child, one creature? Admirable, to be true. But unlike your comrade
Lilith, you have not shown yourself worthy of my respect. And you may
place that inside your own deep dark crevice...sans lubricant.

I have fought the Darkness for years. Platina was only the most public
display of this war I fight in. I'm going to let you in on a little
secret. Since Platina, fighting the Darkness is all that I have done;
slaying their minions, destroying their temples, disrupting their plans.

Do not test me child. We fight the same battle here.]<<<<<
-- the Dark Stranger <21:59:45/03-04-59>

*****PRIVATE: Draig Un
>>>>>[This Mighty Quinn seems to know less than she brags about. While she
has fought one of our foes, it is highly probable she didn't really know
what she was fighting and still doesn't. She has a strong reputation for
being something of a braggart, loud and abusive. Still, the fact that she
was able to fight off one of them is an indication of some strength. She
could make a useful tool.]<<<<<
-- Draig Dau <22:03:42/03-04-59>

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:05:59 +0000

Message no. 19 >>>>>[Logically Irish, the answer is Yes. However, there are a few
fundamental problems associated with creating a gaiasphere in space as
such. Not least of which would be temperature controls and sufficient
atmospheric conditioning. Water is an essential part of all life from
this planet, as is light. Creting such an environment in space is
littered with such problems and difficulties. Not insurmountable I
grant you, but extremely expensive. I don't know, in all honesty that
such consideration would be given to what is essentially a minor part of
the world's concerns. Maybe in a century or two when magic has risen
from babe it is now, then it would not only be possible, but already
achieved. I don't suspect that many corporations will worry about it
now though.]<<<<<
-- Doofus <22:05:13/03-04-59>

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:02:42 +0000

Message no. 20 >>>>>[My handle is well chosen I feel. It had not occurred to me to
search throught the MagicNet archives, please accept my most humble
apologies Dark Stranger, I can only plead temporary stupidity. I was
hoping that you would be able to point me in the direction of verifiable
information concerning spirits and astral incidents outside of the
earth's influence. I had not thought to look for such things in the
most obvious place.]<<<<<
-- Doofus <22:02:01/03-04-59>

From:	Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:22:16 EST

Message no. 21 >>>>>[There are many who believe that theory Irish, believe me there are.
I
know that the rumors to Ares dragging lots of material all over the place
"above" are somewhat true, but I think they are still in the research and
determination stage. Making colony worlds has -some- speculation to it, but I
don't think enough to support an active "manazone".]<<<<<
-- Binder-in-the-Dark <02:23:37/03-06-59 GMT>

From:	Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space
Date:	Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:27:39 EST

Message no. 22 >>>>>[I believe the key word in your statement Mr. Taylor is "lucky
enough".
I don't know, sure it been documented where masses of people generate
background count of varying levels in a previously existing mana-zone, but
that isn't the same thing as "Mana Generation". Actually, that is "Mana
Disruption" of sort. How about sending to your friends the concept of "True
Elementality" Mr. Taylor and make goofy references to alchemy and Quests of
Magic/Power and see what they do.
Yes, Questing is a dangerous thing, but it is a -possible- thing. Try
making radical "stone" and designing/performing a Quest of Power upon the
radical process at the final stage(s) of the enchanting refinement and see
what happens. Better yet, get them to get their -guts-and-glory- attitudes
going and go for radical "fire". (chuckle, smirk)]<<<<<
-- Binder-in-the-Dark <02:28:54/03-06-59 GMT>

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowtk@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Thu, 5 Mar 1998 01:14:26 +0000

Message no. 23 *****PRIVATE: the Dark Stranger
>>>>>[La majyitan mah' khadirun yatab'aqa sarmadhi.
Fa itha yajyi ash-schuthath al-mautu khad yantahhi.

Stick _that_ in your pipe and smoke it.

You been doing all this hero stuff fighting the bad guys, but I never
heard of you. Fair enough, you were out of touch, I believe that.

Gee whiz, you ever stop to think that maybe you've been so head-in-the-
bucket with your own fight you might not, like, be 100% up to date on
what the rest of the world's been doing?

Get a grip. Get a life. Get a clue. Or get lost.]<<<<<
-- The Mighty Quinn <01:14:35/03-05-59>

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:48:16 -0500

Message no. 24 >>>>>[Many of us forget the easy way. Many of us in the shadows forget
MagicNet; their online archives are excellent, their search utilities are
top-line and their links to other magic nodes on the Matrix is second-to-none.

Of course, as I implied, there is a problem with too much information at
hand; a thorough search of MagicNet can surely cause that. But if you can
accept contradictory but not necessarily non-complimentary research on
magic, it's a great spot on the Matrix.]<<<<<
-- the Dark Stranger <00:32:01/03-05-59>

From:	"Mark L. Neidengard" <mneideng@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:30:55 -0800

Message no. 25 >>>>>[Binder: I wasn't talking about background count, I was talking about
a
"mana-null" field. And of course Astral Quests are possible. It's _standard_
for any worthwhile ThD program to require at least one of its Candidates before
receiving certification. It's a very good experience for making people
remember that the world is much wider than the individual. It's also why
the University of Glasgow has a special graveyard for aspirants who never make
it back. We aren't fucking around.

And Dark Stranger is entirely correct: Magicknet is really the appropriate
spot for all sorts of mystical discussion online. Not as good as attending the
top conferences in person perhaps, but a hell of a lot more comprehensive and
available 24 hours a day.
]<<<<<
-- Jason Tylor <19:24:37 / 03-04-59>

From:	Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:46:25 EST

Message no. 26 >>>>>[Mr. Taylor: Please forgive me for apparently not making myself clear.
I
was replying to what I thought was your remark about "x" number of people
generating a mana-field, albiet a small one, in an otherwise "null mana"
environment. I have not seen a 'stable' instance in a 'field' situation where
a "Null Mana Zone" was sustained for any length of time. I've heard stories
and seen what I thought was an anomaly at the time of a NMZ, but I don't have
any documentation on it to this date.]<<<<<
-- Binder-in-the-Dark <04:45:13/03-06-59 GMT>

From:	Brion Wauters <stu2204@****.COCO.CC.AZ.US>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:46:15 -0700

Message no. 27 >>>>>[Like I mentioned before, Doofus, some friends of mine did some
figuering.
According to what we dug up, it'd take at least six acres of plant life
(including hydroponics) to support 20 men more-or-less indefinetly on
another planet. If you need all that just to keep your colonists alive,
you might as well add on an acre or two sos the mages can do their thing
as well.]<<<<<
-- Irish <12:46:40/05-03-59>

From:	Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject:	Re: Mages in Space!
Date:	Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:22:21 +0000

Message no. 28 >>>>>[ Doofus, Stranger, the one whose name you were missing was the
Dark Avenger. May he rest in peace, and may the Spirits be with him.
]<<<<<
-- Canis <22:21:43/03-05-59 CET>

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