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From:	Justin Fang <justinf@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: New world
Date:	Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:23:52 -0800

Message no. 1 >>>>>[If I had a solution, I would have told you already. I don't. All I
have is the last meager leftover in Pandora's box: hope.

The men in the boardroom are not faceless, but they *are* interchangeable.
Strike down every single CEO and President of the Board this instant, and by
tomorrow they would all be replaced. Nothing would change.

Bankrupt a corporation, overthrow a government, and others will take their
place. It is the entire ecology of governments and corporations, the whole
social structure that supports them, that must be changed--or destroyed.

The most important thing to remember is that they exist only because we
belive in them--we have made our own nightmares. Governments and nation-
states, corporations and money: all these are consensual hallucinations. If
tomorrow everyone woke up and stopped believing in them, they would cease to
exist. But it won't be that easy, alas.

They exist in our minds, and so physical weapons are useless against them.
Ideas may prove more effective.

Technology might help: one of the greatest holds they have over people is that
we depend on them to supply our food and water and shelter and other
necessities. If the promise of nanotechnology holds out, someday every
person may be entirely self-sufficient.

Space colonization would help as well--the farther away humanity spreads and
the more scattered we get, the harder it will be to exercise central control
over us.

But it may be that the only real solution is to get a better kind of humanity,
one perhaps more cooperative and less prone to greed and aggressiveness. How
this could be done, I'm not sure. But if they can make a drug that turns you
into a crazed killing machine, or one that plunges you into an day-long erotic
daze, then why not one that makes you calmer, smarter, more rational?]<<<<<
-- Cassandra <20:55:18/02-26-59>

From:	Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: New world
Date:	Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:42:47 -0800

Message no. 2 >>>>>[Cassandra--

So, I take it you'd agree with an old comedian I once heard:

"Youth? That we have enough of already around here. What I want is a
fountain of smart!"

Nice idea, but I doubt it. I was about to say, if the corps could come up
with such a thing, they'd be using it already, but then, if they started
using it, wouldn't they realize what a crock it all is? Maybe the great
Amoeba Corporalis does protect itself. Huh.

Me, I'm betting that humans are more like cockroaches. Too hard to squish
all of us, so we'll always be around, some how, some way. Call me a
pessimistic optimist.]<<<<<
-- NewzJunkie <22:40:58/02-26-59 PST>

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: New world
Date:	Fri, 27 Feb 1998 19:50:30 +0000

Message no. 3 >>>>>[Humans like cockroaches... Hah! That's the best, it really is.
Stuff all the other drek on this node, I absolutely have ta have that
stuck on a t-shirt. NewzJunkie, you have entertained in the past, but
that just has got to be the best ever.

Well done bud, you done earned yourself a pat on the back.

Cockroaches.... heh]<<<<<
-- Goliath <19:50:32/02-27-59>

From:	Qwerty <qwerty@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: New world
Date:	Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:57:54 -0700

Message no. 4 >>>>>[ You should be careful where you wear that t-shirt Goliath,
some people around here vacationed in chicago not too long ago
and I doubt they want to remember it from a shirt let alone remember at
all. ]<<<<<
-- Catalyst <16:56:06/02-27-59>

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: New world
Date:	Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:28:56 +0000

Message no. 5 >>>>>[I hear you Catalyst, I know what you mean, but it doesn't
particularly bother me. If people can walk into a surgery and walk out
again having had antennae and multifaceted eyes fitted, I don't think my
T-Shirt is going to cause too much trouble.

If you could only see what some people here are doing to themselves, you
wouldn't worry about a few words on a shirt, but you might be seriously
concerned for the mentality of the human race.]<<<<<
-- Goliath <01:28:32/02-28-59>

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: New world
Date:	Sat, 28 Feb 1998 02:49:16 +0000

Message no. 6 >>>>>[You know Cassandra, like Orion says, it's kinda nice to know that
there are people out there who still have an optimistic if rather
questionable thought on the general scheme of things. So, OK, there's
very little left except hope. I would argue that even hope has ceased
to exist as a viable force for change.

What is there to hope for? That mankind will learn from it's mistakes,
mature to the point where it can be responsible for the technological
marvels it creates? Sorry, it'll never happen - not to say you're
wrong, but look at how mankind has developed over the last few thousand
years - conflict to conflict, abuse, exploitation, all the bad things
where people take advantage of others, exploit the environment and
destroy everything around them. Hope that eventually the very cancer
that has created the corruption at the hearts of the government and
corporations will eventually feed on itself destroying that which
poisons us all? It can't happen, and you so rightly state the reasons
it won't. What then, is there to hope for?

Lethargy is man's greatest enemy. The ability to sit back and enter a
fantasy world, whether it be chipbooks, trid, simsense, drugs, alcohol
or VR, it doesn't matter, those who don't like what they've got or what
surrounds them will look for an alternative, but so very few look for a
good alternative. The majority self destruct in a circle of darkness
and oppression that closes around them remorselessly like a vice,
eventually killing the very thing that it feeds upon.

Everyone has some hope. Those who live in the barrens, ghettos and
shanty towns of the plexes all hope for something better, thsoe in other
walks of life also hope, but as the levels of society grow to greater
heights, the early hopes are lost amongst the hopes provided by greed
and corruption. In general, those that are completely without and all
but forgotten and ignored by society have fatalistically accepted their
situation and simply wait for the misery and pain to end. Many find an
alternative to this in the vices I mentioned above. Still others turn
to the family of gang membership, reacting to their oppressive dead end
lives with violence and an intense and normally short lived burst of
desperation. Those who have created the situations that the ghettos
occupy have forgotten what it is they do, in the name of personal
advancement, societal position, personal power and self gratification.

I've seen incredible things in the ghettos in seven different countries
in countless cities. Examples of the lasting love mankind has for
others. The selfless care and assistance offered to those who are
suffering - but it is all insufficient. There is not enough to help, to
make a difference, to start the process of change that would create the
brave new world of which many dream.

Why is this? Because above all else, avarice rules the hearts of
mankind. The ruling council of Tairngire vie with each other to attain
powers that they barely comprehend, the corporations destroy each other
and decimate the smaller companies in their viciously intense war for
profit. It'll not be long before that battle takes place on the streets
as well as the Desert, it will not be long before the Shadows are drawn
into the war that will decimate corporations and lay this world to
waste. Politicians vie with each other for the ultimate power of
controlling the nation, killing or destroying those who stand in their
way. A situation that is repeated in every country in every corner of
the world.

Then there is the Government. Once in a while there is a man, one who
brings hope and a dream of a cleaner, safer future. But his vision does
not fit with that of the corruption that infests the nation's capital
just under the surface and that man is killed. Look to the past, and
match the present. Is there such a difference between the murder of
Kennedy to the murder of Dunklezahn? They both had a vision, a vision
of a world that would heal itself, and would provide for all equally.
They were both destroyed for daring to speak of and pursue that vision.

In the end who rules? The Bible and other religious tomes state that
the meek shall inherit the Earth. Many people take that mistakenly to
mean that those of lesser position in society will inherit, and hence
swear themselves to lives of poverty, silence or deprivement - losing
the point of the message in their attempt to meet the standards set.
The meek who shall inherit the earth are not those who would turn the
other cheek, it is not those who would help others selflessly at great
difficulty to themselves, it is not those who would seek religious
orders and follow the teachings therein. It is the lowly beasts of this
world who will inherit.

Mankind is on a downward spiral of self destruction, and when the
powerful start to depose each other and begin the battle for superiority
that none can win, they will not leave the innocent and oppressed out of
their conflict. These people will be amongst the first to die.
Chemical and biological weapons of incredible destructive power still
reside in the hands of people ill-equipped to constructively control
them. Nuclear weapons, although apparently affected by the awakening
still exist, and still contain sufficient danger to be used as weapons.
When the power hungry megalomaniacs have finished unleashing these
weapons, they will turn to the more conventional weapons of bombs and
bullets, and finally when all is done, rocks, sticks, fists, blades.
Not even the unpredictable power and wondrous gift of magic will be used
to save, but to destroy.

Mankind has no hope. The only hope left is in the annihilation of the
human race. There is no point in speculating that the survivors would
learn from the mistakes of their ancestors, we never have and never
will. Mankind has forgotten how to learn the essential lessons of life
and history. He has forgotten the lessons of trust, love and friendship
taught during the formative years of childhood - where no matter how
terrible an insult, it was forgotten within minutes.

We face annihilation at our own hand, leaving whatever creature is best
adapted to survive the lunacy we unleash upon ourselves. Any survivors
will fight amongst themselves for dwindling supplies and safe havens to
occupy. Those who are too selfish, stupid or lazy to learn to survive
will prey upon those who can, and again the cycle begins.

No, mankind is not the meek who will inherit, the surviving creatures,
the insects, the rats, the small creatures of the depths and darkness,
maybe even some of the higher life forms in the far reaches of the
wilderness will survive, but mankind will not. We hate and suffer
jealousy and greed and these emotions are overwhelming and destructive,
overpowering even the heartfelt hope of the few who believe there is a
chance.

It is good to hope, it strengthens the soul and the heart, it is an
admirable thing to watch in the eyes of those who have little or no
excuse to harbour such an emotion, and I will bitterly rue the day that
hope finally expires under the corrupting filth that spews from the
towers of the powerful, but die it will, and when it does, we will end
our reign of this sickened and damaged planet. Finally returning it to
those who can look after it, and will not destroy it beyond recovery.
Ultimately though, even hope is futile.

We are doomed by our own hand. Our inability to remove the cancer that
sickens our world the very peal of the bells of doom.]<<<<<
-- Doofus <02:37:09/02-27-59>

From:	Karl Low <kwil@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: New World
Date:	Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:32:41 -0700

Message no. 7 >>>>>[Well 'scuse me while I go lay down under my truck or somethin'. Hey
Faerie, you wanted to know what's after hope? Folks like Doofus.]<<<<<
-- Xenon Black <20:22:23/02-27-59>

>>>>>[Michael Morningstar, if the work isn't too wet I could be persuaded
to
listen, and if it's got wheels, wings, or rudder, I can probably drive
it.]<<<<<
-- Xenon Black <20:27:44/02-27-59>

From:	Jeffrey Mach <mach@****.CALTECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: New world
Date:	Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:20:26 -0800

Message no. 8 >>>>>[You know. I really hate it when people quote scripture and don't
bother to try to find out what was being said.

"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth."

The word "meek" here is a translation of what has has been passed down
through the ages from the original writings. "Meek" was, at the point it
was written down in English, the best word to describe what was meant by
the original. It was to mean those of _gentle_ spirit. Those who are
patient and without resentment. It refers to those who are caring, not
those that are weak. Physical strength had little to do with it. In
fact, the more modern usage to denote someone who is deficient in spirit,
is nearly the opposite of the original wording and intention. In fact, I
would argue that it takes a very strong person, in will, at least to be
gentle. To be self-serving is the primal instinct of all life, to fight
that, in the interest of others takes effort.

I have seen some of the corporation as macro-organism theories like those
that Cassandra discussed with an eloquence that was a surprise to find
around here (and what got into Dufus' water, the world may never know).
Regretibly, the corporate organism, it seems to me, to be like any other
infant or primative organism: ultimately self-serving. It cares for its
individual only to the extent that it will support the whole. While one
can see the near biological synergy of the corporate populace as cells
forming their divisional organs exec as brain, security as immune system,
lineworker as musculature, I fear that we as yet have seen no indication
of the corporate entity acting often in ways that we would attribute to
"higher organisms."

It is ironic that they are comprised of such beings, at least capable of
traits as love, gentility, and even most basically, altruism. Although, I
assume there are those on the list that will disagree with me on this
point.

If anything I will have to put my faith in the original statement and the
person who made it. The "power" inherent in the truly meek is greater
than that in any bullet. And I do believe that the meek shall inherit the
Earth. If that is to include the human meta-organism, the corporation,
then they will have to learn, and it is my belief that one day some may
follow in the developmental footsteps of their creators. Those that do
not must someday perish when they become too great of a threat. Why?
Because an organism that better cares for its parts better than another
will be healthier and stronger, and even a collective organism must
understand that it cannot exist at the detriment of its components, and
will fight those organisms that threaten its existance.

I fear the day when this will come to pass. It will not be pretty,
but I must believe that Good shall prevail. If not, what is the
point?]<<<<<
-- Michael <01:21:24/02-28-59 PST>

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: New world
Date:	Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:07:17 +0000

Message no. 9 >>>>>You know I really hate it when people try to make out that quoting
something was misquoted and then go on to repeat what was already said.
If' you're going to contradict and correc t somebody, make sure that you
not just repeating their words and claiming them for your own, Michael.
That is known as rude.

The meek shall inherit Michael, just not humanoid. And do not dispair,
good shall prevail, of that there is no doubt. There is no evil in the
animal kingdom, only in that of the (meta)humans. People are capable of
evil anmd revel in the acts derived thereof. Very few animals suffer
from these tendencies, those that do do not survive long.

Good shall prevail, evil shall be vanquished, and the meek shall
inherit. Just as soon as mankind is obliterated.]<<<<<
-- Doofus <10:05:32/02-27-59>

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: New world
Date:	Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:33:39 +0000

Message no. 10 >>>>>[That's all well and good Cassandra. The alternative may be
education through drugs, cybernetics or genetic manipulation.

OK, well let's explore this possibility.

Drugs. Yes there are recreational drugs that instill a sense of
euphoria, forcing peace and comfort upon a person by creating a chemical
imbalance producing a temporary sense of well being. The drug based
peace culture of the 1960's failed to achieve anything except self
destruction in the face of those who produced the drugs so used. In
2012, a similar situation arose and again it was abused by those who saw
profit and gain from the misery of others. Drugs will always produce
those who sell and those who supply, these people will always see profit
at the expense of others and will always strive to create something that
is short lived, has a severe addiction factor and will ultimately
destroy it's user. So, drugs wouldn't work, though for another reason
also... OK

Cybernetics and Genetics. Interesting. Both fields still in their
relative infancy. The possibilities are boundless. Advances are made
on a regular basis, and amazing things have already been accomplished.
But... Who produces the equipment, who oversees the application, who
undergoes the research, and who finances it? Answer those questions and
you will see why any attempt through these two mediums is doomed to
failure.

Mankind, may as you suggest, have evolved in a Savanah environment, but
he has always sought shelter, and the company of his own, mankind is a
social animal, that is why we gather in groups, clans, tribes, towns
cities. We construct creations of amazing complexity so that we may
futher exist in a social environment and take shelter from the
environment. If we were still suffering th mentality of the savannah,
why is it that most people are unable to see beyond the limits of their
own rooms, or their block of the city. Take the towns of the American
midwest, the mentality of the people occupying those towns, where most
were incapable of envisioning a world outside of their town limits, and
were incapable of maintaining any interest in finding out about the
outside world or becoming a part of it. Provided it didn't disturb
their lvies, they could care less what happened beyond the town limits
sign. No, man has not locked a savannah mentality into an enclosure, he
has no savannah mentality. Only those who live with such spaces, still
reflect upon the freedom offered by these areas. The Nomadic tribes of
Africa and Arabia, the Neo-Tribes of America, Australia and Europe are
the few bastions of that mentality, and even they gravitate towards
civilisation.

All possible solutions to the Utopia you speak of, are doomed to
failure. All of them. Why? Because the people who have the ability to
achieve such a dream are incapable of producing said dream. They are
driven by greed, by avarice, by jealousy and hatred. Look to the way
even small developing countries behave towards their own populations,
they starve and persecute them in much the same way as they have for
centuries. This is not going to change while evil emotions such as
greed drive mankind to strive for greater things.

The only thing that may save mankind will be as you suggest, expansion
into space. The conquering of other stars, and the colonisation of
other planets. However. Man will take his hatred, and his greed and
his corruption to the stars with him, he will conquer and enslave and
destroy anything he meets on the way, until the day that a greater
civilisation is encountered, and then mankind will unite, but only in
the desperate fight for survival from the extermination that awaits him.
That extermination is inevitable, whether it be here on our lonely
little planet on the outer rim, or deeper into the galaxy at the hands
of another more powerful race. It will happen. It has been foretold in
many tomes, and is preordained by the nature of man.

/We/ do not have the opportunity to choose what or who our successors
will be, only those who rule, those in power, those who are already
bitter and twisted will choose. Those who are already infested by the
evil that mankind harbours will decide the fate and future of man, and
they are incapable of making that decision in the manner in which in
should be taken. They will judge according to suitability and profit,
not need.]<<<<<
-- Doofus <10:32:09/02-28-59>

>>>>>[An apology is offered to Binder and others who may have suffered
recently from "Aliens are here" comments recently. I have now taken
measures to prevent my flat mate from spamming this list with such
nonsense.]<<<<<
-- Doofus <10:33:11/02-28-59>

From:	Qwerty <qwerty@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: New world
Date:	Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:24:40 -0700

Message no. 11 >>>>>[ No Goliath I guess your right. I didnt realize people were
doing that to themselves, shows how much I pay attention to
the outside world huh. I do doubt the validity of the (meta)human
mentality but then again I think it's been in doubt for the last 3+
millinium.]<<<<<
-- Catalyst < 20:24:32/02-28-59>

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