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Message no. 1
From: Brion David Wauters bdw8@****.ucc.nau.edu
Subject: Theory
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 13:12:23 -0700 (MST)
>>>>>[Seeing as how things are so quite, I thought I might try and start a
nice, lively disscussion. I've been doing some reading of old back-logs,
and I think I've come up with a interesting connection between nomads,
wraiths and going astral in space.

Now, nomads and wraiths are usually held as being completely alien to the
known planes of existance, right? And the apparent axim for astral space
is "as below, so above". So what if nomads & wraiths are from the astral
counterpart to the vaccum of space? Anything that evolved in such an
enviroment would reasonably be pretty alien to all of us terrestrials, no?
And when a mage tries to go astral when beyond the "gaia sphere" he's not
only dealing with a (presumablely) _very_ hostile enviroment, but all the
locals come roaring in for a free lunch? Well? Am I off in Oz, or could
this actually be true?]<<<<<
-- Irish <13:12:40/05-18-60>
Message no. 2
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Theory
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 23:28:09 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>[Kinda a strange question to bring up here for discussion bait, but
then if you hung out on MagikNet you'd have probably heard something
similar if not a few dozen things more bizarre discussed to death.

I'm not so sure that _I_ would say that wraiths and nomads are
"completely alien to the known planes of existance." (I am less versed
on the latter. Since one of the former turned up a few years back and
tore up part of this town, guess which one I've actually bothered to
read up on.) They do seem to obey the same (meta)physical laws that
other entities do on our plane of existance.

On the other hand, they don't come from any metaplane that I am familar
with, unlike say, the Elemental planes. I have a feeling that the place
where they come from is either very hard to find or that those that go
there don't stand much chance of coming back, or some combination
thereof.

I've heard theories that go from a perversion of a great-form spirit of
man, to some sort of psychic manifestation of negative "vibes" that
coalesces out of the ether. It isn't like one has offered itself up for
study, so it is next to impossible to say who is right at who is wrong.
About all that is known about wraiths is that they like carnage and seem
to be able to inspire it.

As for coming from space, I can't say as I'll be willing to buy that any
time soon. Think about it though, wraiths are supposed to manipulate
people. If they were so completely "alien" wouldn't that preclude their
ability to understand humans enough to be able to manipulate them? And
better, why would they even care? If, as some have theorized, they
"feed" on the negative emotions they generate, wouldn't that logically
demand that, like any other predator, they grew up around their prey?

There are almost as many theories about why going beyond the gaiasphere
is dangerous for magi as there are magi. To be honest, though, kind of
like potent illegal drugs, all accounts I've heard are that it's very
bad for you, so I personally haven't tried and none of my knowledge is
firsthand. I must say that I'm in the astral vacuum camp, and until a
better theory (along with more evidence than the ravings of someone in a
padded cell) comes along I figure I'll stick to it. If you follow that
line of reasoning, you don't need big nasties lurking out in space ready
to chow down on any mage stupid enough to use their abilities outside
the gaiasphere, you just have the astral equivalent of stepping out of
an airlock in your birthday suit. Frankly, I don't understand the logic
of the "barbarians at the gate" theorists. If there are these big
powerful nasty whatzits floating in space ready to sic any mage that
comes up to them, why haven't they sauntered down into the old gravity
well where there is all this manna flowing around like it was water.
And if they were just wandering around, space being so bloody vast, how
would they even know to find us in the first place?

While I wouldn't say you're off in Oz, Irish, I am of the opinion that
your idea is a lot less probable than several of the other theories I've
heard. Weirder things have turned out to be true, though, so I can't
say you're wrong no more than you could say I am.


I wonder how long it will be before The Mighty Quinn throws her two yen
in on this one?]<<<<<
-- Michael <23:10:19/05-19-60 PDT>
Message no. 3
From: Brion David Wauters bdw8@****.ucc.nau.edu
Subject: Theory
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 12:04:49 -0700 (MST)
>>>>>[Oh, I'd give it a day, tops (that's assuming she's currently able to
scan the board). But I do have to dissagree with you. Insects can be
classified as having a completely alien mentality to humans, but we've
managed to manipulate and feed off them. So it isn't quite as unlikely
that the wraiths & nomads are trying the same thing with us.

Where did you get your data on wraiths, Michael? I tried doing some
research once, but all of the data I could find was so jargon heavy that I
didn't learn anything new. Maybe your sources are a bit more clear.]<<<<<
-- Irish <12:04:50/05-19-60>
Message no. 4
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Theory
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 13:13:07 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>[Well, sure, insect spirits have an alien _mentality_ to humans.
When's the last time you had an interesting conversation with a
cockroach? (Being in an 'altered state of consciousness' doesn't
count.) But, they are hardly what one would call alien to our plane of
existence, all indications are that they are quite terrestrial. Heck,
insects have been around on this planet a _lot_ longer than even
mammals, although admittedly I am not sure what this bodes for insect
spirits. I will say this: they may be different; doesn't make them
unnatural / extra-terrestrial, and if they've been around humans for
anywhere near as long as insects have, then they've had plenty of time
to get to know us. So that only goes to bolster my Occam's Razor
argument against your idea that wraiths and nomads are "from beyond."

I'm not sure what you mean by "we've managed to manipulate and feed off
them," maybe you got the pronoun's confused, because all I've heard is
the opposite happening. Uh...unless you're a bug spirit. ...!

*shrug*

Anyway, I've heard of a few sparce accounts that suggest that insect
spirits can use a form of possession. That leads to some interesting
questions as to how that works exactly. Having an alien mindset would
probably cause some..."interface problems" for lack of a better word.
Either they take over the body, at which point the mind is that of the
bug spirit, or they use some form of mind-control which would result in
the posessee's mind being the one in the driver's seat, but how an
insectoid mind and a human mind would interact is beyond me. I can't
say as I would really enjoy being part of such a research study.

As for my sources, I doubt that they would be any more clear. I
probably mostly saw the same things you did. I just happen to be able
to read jargon. Goes with the territory of being in the Thaumaturgy
business.]<<<<<
-- Michael <13:10:32/05-19-60 PDT>
Message no. 5
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Theory
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 23:32:04 +0100
>>>>>[Irish, I understand you're a mundane, but that was a remarkably
precise summary of what my teachers believed and what I personally have
experienced.]<<<<<
-- Alba <23:21:35/05-19-60>
Message no. 6
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Theory
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 23:30:24 +0100
>>>>>[Hey, Irish (and anyone else who cares), did you know the UCAS has
_hundreds_ of pet bugs on an island off Nova Scotia? Guarded to hell and
back, but they're there. A whole shipful of them. Hundreds, maybe
_thousands_.

All smiles and denials in public, but in reality the fat cats at the top are
cutting their own deal and selling us out to save their own skins.


Look what happened in Chicago. They used gamma-anthrax on the Volk,
because we'd figured out what was happening. The UCAS gave the bugs
Chicago. I guess Seattle's next: there's a mother-huge hive in the Renraku
Arcology, and the Army's there to let the bugs breed in peace, same as
they protected Chicago until the colony was done. Then they shipped all
the bugs out, and dropped bioweapons on anyone who might tell the
truth. Everyone in Seattle is going to be lucky to die: the survivors will be
Bug hosts!


I mean, look at your typical megacorp. It's a Bug hive through and
through. Collective mind, collective action, no individuality. Obey the
corporation, be a good little drone, follow orders, ask no questions.

It's been coming for years and you guys helped to make it happen. You
guarded and protected and served the megacorps, helped make them
what they are.

YOU HELPED TO MAKE IT HAPPEN!!!!]<<<<<
-- Daisy-K <23:29:42/05-19-60>
Message no. 7
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Theory
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 23:22:00 +0100
>>>>>[Hey, like Kibo, say my name and I appear... <chuckle>

Wraiths, nomads, whatever, go in the "bad guys, kill'em quick and worry
about the details later" bucket as far as I'm concerned. I don't know...
maybe deep down inside they're really lovable, creative beings that can be
valuable members of society, but they just make such a _mess_ of the
place it's hard to put up with them. They don't make good neighbours.


As for stuff coming for space... I've been there and there are _bad
things_ living out there. I kid you not. Big and bad and - to us - nasty.
They like death and destruction and pain. And some of them know how to
get it.

I don't buy the "feeding on negative emotions" crap, though. As far as I
can tell, they just think watching us kill each other is fun. Or maybe they
don't much care and they're playing their own games and what we think
doesn't matter.

But I mean, why do humans pour boiling water into ant nests? Because we
"feed on the death throes of the ants"? Because we're just sadists? Or
because the ants are a nuisance and we don't like finding them in the
sugar bowl, and they're so far below us killing them by the thousand isn't
an issue?


Why don't more of them come through? Beats me. The ones that
sometimes do are bad enough.

I like the "circle of firelight" theory myself. You're camping in a hostile
wilderness, and I mean the sort where the wildlife thinks _it's_ above
_you_ in the food chain during the night, so what do you do? Light a fire
and keep it burning until morning.

The night may well be full of hungry predators, and you'll see eyes glint at
you in the darkness, but not many of them will step into the light and
show themselves. Most of them could take you easily, man-to-beast, but
some ignore the light and others skulk by the edge staring hopefully into it
and only a very rare few have the _cojones_ to walk in and challenge you
openly.

Of course, the ones that do... are the ones who know you and your kind
best, who know that the fire's just light and heat and that if the person
beside it doesn't wake up or can't fight back they're just meat. They're the
dangerous predators. The ones who ignore the light, or who fear it, you
can handle as long as you're not stupid: it's the clever few you have to be
scared of.


And you know what? When people say airily "There's nothing to be afraid
of!" and walk off into the night... not many of them come back. And
those that do, come back scared.

I walked out into the darkness. I came back, and I came back afraid.

Make of that what you will.]<<<<<
-- The Mighty Quinn <23:00:42/05-19-60>
Message no. 8
From: WildSmashr@***.com WildSmashr@***.com
Subject: Theory
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:24:24 EDT
>>>>>[Irish, with all due respect, stay with the big guns, it's what you do

best. Leave the magic to the magicians. No offense intended, it's just that
reviewing the logs is a poor substitute for experience and for real magical
training.

Quinn, we've had long discussions on this matter, and all we can do is agree
to disagree and buy another drink.

There is nothing out in space. It's a void, a vacuum for lack of a better
term. That means there's nothing living out there either, at least as far as
the original question refers.

Space is the wrong place to look for the "home" of beings such as wraiths.
This world may indeed be their natural and original home. But if one must
look elsewhere, then don't look into space. Look instead to other planes of
existence. The metaplanes, as they are commonly referred to, are very often
just as real as our own world, with their own internal logic and natural
laws. Perhaps they are indeed just as real as our own world, and that to the
denizens of other metaplanes our world is itself just another metaplane.

Perhaps not. It does get into the old philosphical discussion (most often
discussed while under the influence of hallucinogenics) of "what if we are
just someone else's dream?" We lack enough evidence, scientific or
apocryphal to state with supreme confidence one way or another. So I submit
that we should look to these alternate worlds, other dimensions, whatever one
wishes to label them, as a home for truely alien beings such as the insect
spirits and wraiths. I personally have experienced enough reality on these
other places to believe, nay, to know that this is where such spirits and
beings lurk.

And now to lunch...]<<<<<
--the Dark Stranger<11:55:39/5-20-60>
Message no. 9
From: Brion David Wauters bdw8@****.ucc.nau.edu
Subject: Theory
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:39:47 -0700 (MST)
>>>>>[I know I'm little better than a layman when it comes to this stuff,
DS, but what the hell. It ain't like I got much else to do right now.
Besides, it never hurts to understand the enemy. And since none of you
spell-tossers every bothered to explain this drek, I'm stuck blundering
through on my own.

Besides, My post served its stated purpouse and got some people posting
again. So it was a success, even if it was a half-backed theory.]<<<<<
-- Irish <10:39:20/05-21-60>
Message no. 10
From: Brion David Wauters bdw8@****.ucc.nau.edu
Subject: Theory
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:45:50 -0700 (MST)
>>>>>[No, Michael, I ment we've managed to manipulate and feed off
_regular_ bugs. Therefore, if we can do it to an alien mentality, an
alien mentality can do it to us. See?]<<<<<
-- Irish <10:45:30/05-21-60>
Message no. 11
From: Brion David Wauters bdw8@****.ucc.nau.edu
Subject: Theory
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:56:43 -0700 (MST)
>>>>>[And the conspiracy theorists return. Sorry Daisy-K, it don't wash.
It took a good portion of the UCAS military to quarenteen Chicago. It
would take roughly the same amount to lock down a bug infested island.
And that can't really be hidden, polite denials or no. Besides, the
goverment and corp fat-cats aren't quite as brain-fried as we like to
pretend. They know that a deal with the Invae last only as long as the
bugs want it to. And helping the bugs would just hasten the day when you
go from ally to lunch. The fat-cats _know_ this, so why would they do
something _that_ stupid? Granted, some corpers and politicos are off
their nuts, but the majority are merely greedy SOBs, not suicideal.]<<<<<
-- Irish <10:56:20/05-21-60>
Message no. 12
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Theory
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 11:24:38 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>[Uh...no.

Is it just me or does anybody else think what bug spirits do to humans
is not really comperable to someone keeping some silkworms (actually a
caterpillar) and eating the occasional chocolate covered ant? At that
point mentality has _absolutely_ nothing to do with it other than the
fact that a real insect mind is so primative that we have no compunction
against doing such things. When you say manipulation, the only think I
can imagine is something like a mage using a Control [Insect] spell
which works because insects are such simple stimulus-response animals.
Mind you I once saw a Rat Shaman who could make his pet roach do the
most amazing things, but I don't think that is of the same order as if
the cockroach possessed the shaman to do his bidding.

Bug _spirits_ on the other hand have in many cases manifested evidence
of intelligence, if not sentience. I happen to be among those of the
Awakened that deem many spirits sentient, especially the free ones, so
even if I may not be able to understand an insect spirit I can't say
that I a priori deny them sentience either.

I don't know of anybody who's tried to eat a bug spirit, either. Not
only would it agressively object to such an action, but one can only
imagine the indigestion. As for manipulation, though, that's a tricky
matter. There is, reportedly such a thing as an "Insect shaman" but
they are typically discussed in the similar hushed tones as one would
talk about "toxic" shamans. What information I have been able to gather
on them is sketchy and anecdotal at best. And I have a hard enough time
understanding shamans in general..."channeling" such an alien
intelligence doesn't sound like a great way to retain one's sanity.
But then, I've been told similar about voyaging in the metaplanes and
I'm still okay. I think.]<<<<<
-- Michael <11:20:15/05-21-60 PDT>
Message no. 13
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Theory
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:16:05 +0100
*****PRIVATE: Irish
>>>>>[+++++begin sinister_music.mid
+++++add audio.wav (creepy wind sound f/x)

You know, Irish, sometimes even the loons are right. There is just such an
island, and there are thousands of bugs there, and the Army is guarding
it, just like Daisy-K said...

<snigger> Of course, he's wrong on all the important details. The bugs are
deep-frozen as captured, in hibernation, except a dozen or two at a time.
Who get put in The Bullpen, thawed out, woken up and then used for
weapons testing.

I gather they've used up about half the bugs I captured - did I mention I,
personally, captured the shipment? I am _such_ a heroine - and have
learned no end of good stuff about how to make live bugs into dead bugs.

+++++include video.clp
[The flatscreen trideo is old and fuzzy, but still watchable. A young man in
a lab coat, holding an assault rifle, faces the camera. The caption
identifies him as 'GOVERNMENT SCIENTIST'. Behind him, in a cage, a
vaguely arachnid monstrosity yowls and chitters, gnawing at the bard.

"A bug isn't too smart. But you can blow a couple of limbs off -" he fires a
long burst into the cage, blasting two legs off the monster amidst a spray
of greenish ichor. It shrieks and thrashes, but still lunges at its tormentor
- "and it's still eighty-three per cent combat effective."

The camera zooms in, managing to catch the heroic set of the slightly
nerdish scientist's jaw. "Aim for the nerve stem." Another burst, and the
horrible creature collapses at once. "That'll put it down on the spot."]

Makes more sense than just opening the seacocks and scuttling the ship
they were being transported on, doesn't it?]<<<<<
-- The Mighty Quinn <19:15:32/05-21-60>
Message no. 14
From: Jett zmjett@*********.com
Subject: Theory
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:44:33 -0400
>>>>>[Most larger spirits are sentient. The small ones generally aren't
very
bright, but when you start dealing with larger spirits, especially free
ones, you ARE dealing with another sentient being. I worked once with a free
mantis spirit to clean out a small roach nest, and she was damn sentient.
She could pass for human pretty much near perfectly: had a bank account,
finances, real estate, drekcetera. However, no matter how human they act,
you have to remember that they think differently from humans because they
are NOT human.
I don't know about insect shamans, but I know a lot forms of toxic magic (as
well as some darker practices such as necromancy) take their toll on the
sanity...however, they promise a lot of power, very quickly, and insane
people with lots power is generally a bad thing. The down side? It burns the
mage out very quickly, and death is...not pretty. There's also the HIGH risk
of being enslaved or eaten by the very thing you conjured...Toxic magic CAN
be used with lower risk if you're hella careful, but most people insane
enough to try it are too far gone to at least try the proper safeguards.
Anyway, that's a little magic bg...off the topic at hand, I know, but if
anyone wants to discuss further with me, feel free to message me
backchannel.]<<<<<
-- Jett <17:31:47/05-21-60>
Message no. 15
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Theory
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 01:42:44 +0100
>>>>>[There's one upside to bug spirits. It gets nice and clear and simple:
it's us or them. No live-and-let-live, no deals, no cuddly accomodations.
We kill them or they kill us. Simple as that.

They prey on us, by possessing our bodies. We kill them everywhere we
find them. I'll gladly say they're sentient, I've locked minds with Queen
spirits while I've fought them, there's intelligence there. But it's malign and
hostile and totally disinterested in all that nice human co-existence crap
that seems to suit us.

They seem to see us, the way we see cattle. Useful beings whose thoughts
and opinions are entirely irrelevant to their purposes, which involve
destroying us for their benefit. They know we're sentient. They know
their possessing human bodies as hosts destroys a sentient being. And they
don't give a good Goddamn. (And no, I didn't turn vegetarian, but then no
cow has ever walked in with an Uzi to shoot up a butcher shop, I guess
they don't mind being eaten _that_ much :) )


Eat Bugs? Physically, hard on the teeth. All that chitin, it's crunchy, hard
to get _spurs_ through it let alone teeth. Spiritually or magically or
whatever? How? We're not naturally vampiric.Though maybe we could feed
captured Bugs to vampires? Any vamps want to comment?

Manipulate one? It's been tried. Many times. It reminds me of a certain
Latvian woman and a limerick thereof.

"There was a young lady from Riga
Who smiled as she rode on a tiger
When they returned from their ride
The girl was inside
And the smile was on the face of the tiger."

I've been bughunting for what feels like a long, long time. And I've run into
lots of people who were sure they could cut deals or control or threaten
the Bugs. And they all ended up empty shells for another being's will by the
end.

Make of that what you will.]<<<<<
-- The Mighty Quinn <01:42:46/05-22-60>
Message no. 16
From: Brion David Wauters bdw8@****.ucc.nau.edu
Subject: Theory
Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 12:24:32 -0700 (MST)
***** PRIVATE: Mighty Quinn
>>>>>[You know Quinn, that clip looks awfully
familiar....]<<<<<
-- irish <12:24:55/05-25-60>
Message no. 17
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Theory
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:47:02 +0100
*****PRIVATE: Irish
>>>>>[Yeah, well, the real footage is even better, but it's classified out
the kazoo. We're learning some good stuff, though, the bughunter squads
should find their lives a lot longer from it.]<<<<<
-- The Mighty Quinn <23:46:54/06-26-60>
Message no. 18
From: Brion David Wauters bdw8@****.ucc.nau.edu
Subject: Theory
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 13:12:23 -0700 (MST)
>>>>>[Seeing as how things are so quite, I thought I might try and start a
nice, lively disscussion. I've been doing some reading of old back-logs,
and I think I've come up with a interesting connection between nomads,
wraiths and going astral in space.

Now, nomads and wraiths are usually held as being completely alien to the
known planes of existance, right? And the apparent axim for astral space
is "as below, so above". So what if nomads & wraiths are from the astral
counterpart to the vaccum of space? Anything that evolved in such an
enviroment would reasonably be pretty alien to all of us terrestrials, no?
And when a mage tries to go astral when beyond the "gaia sphere" he's not
only dealing with a (presumablely) _very_ hostile enviroment, but all the
locals come roaring in for a free lunch? Well? Am I off in Oz, or could
this actually be true?]<<<<<
-- Irish <13:12:40/05-18-60>
Message no. 19
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Theory
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 23:28:09 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>[Kinda a strange question to bring up here for discussion bait, but
then if you hung out on MagikNet you'd have probably heard something
similar if not a few dozen things more bizarre discussed to death.

I'm not so sure that _I_ would say that wraiths and nomads are
"completely alien to the known planes of existance." (I am less versed
on the latter. Since one of the former turned up a few years back and
tore up part of this town, guess which one I've actually bothered to
read up on.) They do seem to obey the same (meta)physical laws that
other entities do on our plane of existance.

On the other hand, they don't come from any metaplane that I am familar
with, unlike say, the Elemental planes. I have a feeling that the place
where they come from is either very hard to find or that those that go
there don't stand much chance of coming back, or some combination
thereof.

I've heard theories that go from a perversion of a great-form spirit of
man, to some sort of psychic manifestation of negative "vibes" that
coalesces out of the ether. It isn't like one has offered itself up for
study, so it is next to impossible to say who is right at who is wrong.
About all that is known about wraiths is that they like carnage and seem
to be able to inspire it.

As for coming from space, I can't say as I'll be willing to buy that any
time soon. Think about it though, wraiths are supposed to manipulate
people. If they were so completely "alien" wouldn't that preclude their
ability to understand humans enough to be able to manipulate them? And
better, why would they even care? If, as some have theorized, they
"feed" on the negative emotions they generate, wouldn't that logically
demand that, like any other predator, they grew up around their prey?

There are almost as many theories about why going beyond the gaiasphere
is dangerous for magi as there are magi. To be honest, though, kind of
like potent illegal drugs, all accounts I've heard are that it's very
bad for you, so I personally haven't tried and none of my knowledge is
firsthand. I must say that I'm in the astral vacuum camp, and until a
better theory (along with more evidence than the ravings of someone in a
padded cell) comes along I figure I'll stick to it. If you follow that
line of reasoning, you don't need big nasties lurking out in space ready
to chow down on any mage stupid enough to use their abilities outside
the gaiasphere, you just have the astral equivalent of stepping out of
an airlock in your birthday suit. Frankly, I don't understand the logic
of the "barbarians at the gate" theorists. If there are these big
powerful nasty whatzits floating in space ready to sic any mage that
comes up to them, why haven't they sauntered down into the old gravity
well where there is all this manna flowing around like it was water.
And if they were just wandering around, space being so bloody vast, how
would they even know to find us in the first place?

While I wouldn't say you're off in Oz, Irish, I am of the opinion that
your idea is a lot less probable than several of the other theories I've
heard. Weirder things have turned out to be true, though, so I can't
say you're wrong no more than you could say I am.


I wonder how long it will be before The Mighty Quinn throws her two yen
in on this one?]<<<<<
-- Michael <23:10:19/05-19-60 PDT>
Message no. 20
From: Brion David Wauters bdw8@****.ucc.nau.edu
Subject: Theory
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 12:04:49 -0700 (MST)
>>>>>[Oh, I'd give it a day, tops (that's assuming she's currently able to
scan the board). But I do have to dissagree with you. Insects can be
classified as having a completely alien mentality to humans, but we've
managed to manipulate and feed off them. So it isn't quite as unlikely
that the wraiths & nomads are trying the same thing with us.

Where did you get your data on wraiths, Michael? I tried doing some
research once, but all of the data I could find was so jargon heavy that I
didn't learn anything new. Maybe your sources are a bit more clear.]<<<<<
-- Irish <12:04:50/05-19-60>
Message no. 21
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Theory
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 13:13:07 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>[Well, sure, insect spirits have an alien _mentality_ to humans.
When's the last time you had an interesting conversation with a
cockroach? (Being in an 'altered state of consciousness' doesn't
count.) But, they are hardly what one would call alien to our plane of
existence, all indications are that they are quite terrestrial. Heck,
insects have been around on this planet a _lot_ longer than even
mammals, although admittedly I am not sure what this bodes for insect
spirits. I will say this: they may be different; doesn't make them
unnatural / extra-terrestrial, and if they've been around humans for
anywhere near as long as insects have, then they've had plenty of time
to get to know us. So that only goes to bolster my Occam's Razor
argument against your idea that wraiths and nomads are "from beyond."

I'm not sure what you mean by "we've managed to manipulate and feed off
them," maybe you got the pronoun's confused, because all I've heard is
the opposite happening. Uh...unless you're a bug spirit. ...!

*shrug*

Anyway, I've heard of a few sparce accounts that suggest that insect
spirits can use a form of possession. That leads to some interesting
questions as to how that works exactly. Having an alien mindset would
probably cause some..."interface problems" for lack of a better word.
Either they take over the body, at which point the mind is that of the
bug spirit, or they use some form of mind-control which would result in
the posessee's mind being the one in the driver's seat, but how an
insectoid mind and a human mind would interact is beyond me. I can't
say as I would really enjoy being part of such a research study.

As for my sources, I doubt that they would be any more clear. I
probably mostly saw the same things you did. I just happen to be able
to read jargon. Goes with the territory of being in the Thaumaturgy
business.]<<<<<
-- Michael <13:10:32/05-19-60 PDT>
Message no. 22
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Theory
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 23:32:04 +0100
>>>>>[Irish, I understand you're a mundane, but that was a remarkably
precise summary of what my teachers believed and what I personally have
experienced.]<<<<<
-- Alba <23:21:35/05-19-60>
Message no. 23
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Theory
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 23:30:24 +0100
>>>>>[Hey, Irish (and anyone else who cares), did you know the UCAS has
_hundreds_ of pet bugs on an island off Nova Scotia? Guarded to hell and
back, but they're there. A whole shipful of them. Hundreds, maybe
_thousands_.

All smiles and denials in public, but in reality the fat cats at the top are
cutting their own deal and selling us out to save their own skins.


Look what happened in Chicago. They used gamma-anthrax on the Volk,
because we'd figured out what was happening. The UCAS gave the bugs
Chicago. I guess Seattle's next: there's a mother-huge hive in the Renraku
Arcology, and the Army's there to let the bugs breed in peace, same as
they protected Chicago until the colony was done. Then they shipped all
the bugs out, and dropped bioweapons on anyone who might tell the
truth. Everyone in Seattle is going to be lucky to die: the survivors will be
Bug hosts!


I mean, look at your typical megacorp. It's a Bug hive through and
through. Collective mind, collective action, no individuality. Obey the
corporation, be a good little drone, follow orders, ask no questions.

It's been coming for years and you guys helped to make it happen. You
guarded and protected and served the megacorps, helped make them
what they are.

YOU HELPED TO MAKE IT HAPPEN!!!!]<<<<<
-- Daisy-K <23:29:42/05-19-60>
Message no. 24
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Theory
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 23:22:00 +0100
>>>>>[Hey, like Kibo, say my name and I appear... <chuckle>

Wraiths, nomads, whatever, go in the "bad guys, kill'em quick and worry
about the details later" bucket as far as I'm concerned. I don't know...
maybe deep down inside they're really lovable, creative beings that can be
valuable members of society, but they just make such a _mess_ of the
place it's hard to put up with them. They don't make good neighbours.


As for stuff coming for space... I've been there and there are _bad
things_ living out there. I kid you not. Big and bad and - to us - nasty.
They like death and destruction and pain. And some of them know how to
get it.

I don't buy the "feeding on negative emotions" crap, though. As far as I
can tell, they just think watching us kill each other is fun. Or maybe they
don't much care and they're playing their own games and what we think
doesn't matter.

But I mean, why do humans pour boiling water into ant nests? Because we
"feed on the death throes of the ants"? Because we're just sadists? Or
because the ants are a nuisance and we don't like finding them in the
sugar bowl, and they're so far below us killing them by the thousand isn't
an issue?


Why don't more of them come through? Beats me. The ones that
sometimes do are bad enough.

I like the "circle of firelight" theory myself. You're camping in a hostile
wilderness, and I mean the sort where the wildlife thinks _it's_ above
_you_ in the food chain during the night, so what do you do? Light a fire
and keep it burning until morning.

The night may well be full of hungry predators, and you'll see eyes glint at
you in the darkness, but not many of them will step into the light and
show themselves. Most of them could take you easily, man-to-beast, but
some ignore the light and others skulk by the edge staring hopefully into it
and only a very rare few have the _cojones_ to walk in and challenge you
openly.

Of course, the ones that do... are the ones who know you and your kind
best, who know that the fire's just light and heat and that if the person
beside it doesn't wake up or can't fight back they're just meat. They're the
dangerous predators. The ones who ignore the light, or who fear it, you
can handle as long as you're not stupid: it's the clever few you have to be
scared of.


And you know what? When people say airily "There's nothing to be afraid
of!" and walk off into the night... not many of them come back. And
those that do, come back scared.

I walked out into the darkness. I came back, and I came back afraid.

Make of that what you will.]<<<<<
-- The Mighty Quinn <23:00:42/05-19-60>
Message no. 25
From: WildSmashr@***.com WildSmashr@***.com
Subject: Theory
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:24:24 EDT
>>>>>[Irish, with all due respect, stay with the big guns, it's what you do

best. Leave the magic to the magicians. No offense intended, it's just that
reviewing the logs is a poor substitute for experience and for real magical
training.

Quinn, we've had long discussions on this matter, and all we can do is agree
to disagree and buy another drink.

There is nothing out in space. It's a void, a vacuum for lack of a better
term. That means there's nothing living out there either, at least as far as
the original question refers.

Space is the wrong place to look for the "home" of beings such as wraiths.
This world may indeed be their natural and original home. But if one must
look elsewhere, then don't look into space. Look instead to other planes of
existence. The metaplanes, as they are commonly referred to, are very often
just as real as our own world, with their own internal logic and natural
laws. Perhaps they are indeed just as real as our own world, and that to the
denizens of other metaplanes our world is itself just another metaplane.

Perhaps not. It does get into the old philosphical discussion (most often
discussed while under the influence of hallucinogenics) of "what if we are
just someone else's dream?" We lack enough evidence, scientific or
apocryphal to state with supreme confidence one way or another. So I submit
that we should look to these alternate worlds, other dimensions, whatever one
wishes to label them, as a home for truely alien beings such as the insect
spirits and wraiths. I personally have experienced enough reality on these
other places to believe, nay, to know that this is where such spirits and
beings lurk.

And now to lunch...]<<<<<
--the Dark Stranger<11:55:39/5-20-60>
Message no. 26
From: Brion David Wauters bdw8@****.ucc.nau.edu
Subject: Theory
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:39:47 -0700 (MST)
>>>>>[I know I'm little better than a layman when it comes to this stuff,
DS, but what the hell. It ain't like I got much else to do right now.
Besides, it never hurts to understand the enemy. And since none of you
spell-tossers every bothered to explain this drek, I'm stuck blundering
through on my own.

Besides, My post served its stated purpouse and got some people posting
again. So it was a success, even if it was a half-backed theory.]<<<<<
-- Irish <10:39:20/05-21-60>
Message no. 27
From: Brion David Wauters bdw8@****.ucc.nau.edu
Subject: Theory
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:45:50 -0700 (MST)
>>>>>[No, Michael, I ment we've managed to manipulate and feed off
_regular_ bugs. Therefore, if we can do it to an alien mentality, an
alien mentality can do it to us. See?]<<<<<
-- Irish <10:45:30/05-21-60>
Message no. 28
From: Brion David Wauters bdw8@****.ucc.nau.edu
Subject: Theory
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:56:43 -0700 (MST)
>>>>>[And the conspiracy theorists return. Sorry Daisy-K, it don't wash.
It took a good portion of the UCAS military to quarenteen Chicago. It
would take roughly the same amount to lock down a bug infested island.
And that can't really be hidden, polite denials or no. Besides, the
goverment and corp fat-cats aren't quite as brain-fried as we like to
pretend. They know that a deal with the Invae last only as long as the
bugs want it to. And helping the bugs would just hasten the day when you
go from ally to lunch. The fat-cats _know_ this, so why would they do
something _that_ stupid? Granted, some corpers and politicos are off
their nuts, but the majority are merely greedy SOBs, not suicideal.]<<<<<
-- Irish <10:56:20/05-21-60>
Message no. 29
From: Mach mach@****.caltech.edu
Subject: Theory
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 11:24:38 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>[Uh...no.

Is it just me or does anybody else think what bug spirits do to humans
is not really comperable to someone keeping some silkworms (actually a
caterpillar) and eating the occasional chocolate covered ant? At that
point mentality has _absolutely_ nothing to do with it other than the
fact that a real insect mind is so primative that we have no compunction
against doing such things. When you say manipulation, the only think I
can imagine is something like a mage using a Control [Insect] spell
which works because insects are such simple stimulus-response animals.
Mind you I once saw a Rat Shaman who could make his pet roach do the
most amazing things, but I don't think that is of the same order as if
the cockroach possessed the shaman to do his bidding.

Bug _spirits_ on the other hand have in many cases manifested evidence
of intelligence, if not sentience. I happen to be among those of the
Awakened that deem many spirits sentient, especially the free ones, so
even if I may not be able to understand an insect spirit I can't say
that I a priori deny them sentience either.

I don't know of anybody who's tried to eat a bug spirit, either. Not
only would it agressively object to such an action, but one can only
imagine the indigestion. As for manipulation, though, that's a tricky
matter. There is, reportedly such a thing as an "Insect shaman" but
they are typically discussed in the similar hushed tones as one would
talk about "toxic" shamans. What information I have been able to gather
on them is sketchy and anecdotal at best. And I have a hard enough time
understanding shamans in general..."channeling" such an alien
intelligence doesn't sound like a great way to retain one's sanity.
But then, I've been told similar about voyaging in the metaplanes and
I'm still okay. I think.]<<<<<
-- Michael <11:20:15/05-21-60 PDT>
Message no. 30
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Theory
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:16:05 +0100
*****PRIVATE: Irish
>>>>>[+++++begin sinister_music.mid
+++++add audio.wav (creepy wind sound f/x)

You know, Irish, sometimes even the loons are right. There is just such an
island, and there are thousands of bugs there, and the Army is guarding
it, just like Daisy-K said...

<snigger> Of course, he's wrong on all the important details. The bugs are
deep-frozen as captured, in hibernation, except a dozen or two at a time.
Who get put in The Bullpen, thawed out, woken up and then used for
weapons testing.

I gather they've used up about half the bugs I captured - did I mention I,
personally, captured the shipment? I am _such_ a heroine - and have
learned no end of good stuff about how to make live bugs into dead bugs.

+++++include video.clp
[The flatscreen trideo is old and fuzzy, but still watchable. A young man in
a lab coat, holding an assault rifle, faces the camera. The caption
identifies him as 'GOVERNMENT SCIENTIST'. Behind him, in a cage, a
vaguely arachnid monstrosity yowls and chitters, gnawing at the bard.

"A bug isn't too smart. But you can blow a couple of limbs off -" he fires a
long burst into the cage, blasting two legs off the monster amidst a spray
of greenish ichor. It shrieks and thrashes, but still lunges at its tormentor
- "and it's still eighty-three per cent combat effective."

The camera zooms in, managing to catch the heroic set of the slightly
nerdish scientist's jaw. "Aim for the nerve stem." Another burst, and the
horrible creature collapses at once. "That'll put it down on the spot."]

Makes more sense than just opening the seacocks and scuttling the ship
they were being transported on, doesn't it?]<<<<<
-- The Mighty Quinn <19:15:32/05-21-60>
Message no. 31
From: Jett zmjett@*********.com
Subject: Theory
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:44:33 -0400
>>>>>[Most larger spirits are sentient. The small ones generally aren't
very
bright, but when you start dealing with larger spirits, especially free
ones, you ARE dealing with another sentient being. I worked once with a free
mantis spirit to clean out a small roach nest, and she was damn sentient.
She could pass for human pretty much near perfectly: had a bank account,
finances, real estate, drekcetera. However, no matter how human they act,
you have to remember that they think differently from humans because they
are NOT human.
I don't know about insect shamans, but I know a lot forms of toxic magic (as
well as some darker practices such as necromancy) take their toll on the
sanity...however, they promise a lot of power, very quickly, and insane
people with lots power is generally a bad thing. The down side? It burns the
mage out very quickly, and death is...not pretty. There's also the HIGH risk
of being enslaved or eaten by the very thing you conjured...Toxic magic CAN
be used with lower risk if you're hella careful, but most people insane
enough to try it are too far gone to at least try the proper safeguards.
Anyway, that's a little magic bg...off the topic at hand, I know, but if
anyone wants to discuss further with me, feel free to message me
backchannel.]<<<<<
-- Jett <17:31:47/05-21-60>
Message no. 32
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Theory
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 01:42:44 +0100
>>>>>[There's one upside to bug spirits. It gets nice and clear and simple:
it's us or them. No live-and-let-live, no deals, no cuddly accomodations.
We kill them or they kill us. Simple as that.

They prey on us, by possessing our bodies. We kill them everywhere we
find them. I'll gladly say they're sentient, I've locked minds with Queen
spirits while I've fought them, there's intelligence there. But it's malign and
hostile and totally disinterested in all that nice human co-existence crap
that seems to suit us.

They seem to see us, the way we see cattle. Useful beings whose thoughts
and opinions are entirely irrelevant to their purposes, which involve
destroying us for their benefit. They know we're sentient. They know
their possessing human bodies as hosts destroys a sentient being. And they
don't give a good Goddamn. (And no, I didn't turn vegetarian, but then no
cow has ever walked in with an Uzi to shoot up a butcher shop, I guess
they don't mind being eaten _that_ much :) )


Eat Bugs? Physically, hard on the teeth. All that chitin, it's crunchy, hard
to get _spurs_ through it let alone teeth. Spiritually or magically or
whatever? How? We're not naturally vampiric.Though maybe we could feed
captured Bugs to vampires? Any vamps want to comment?

Manipulate one? It's been tried. Many times. It reminds me of a certain
Latvian woman and a limerick thereof.

"There was a young lady from Riga
Who smiled as she rode on a tiger
When they returned from their ride
The girl was inside
And the smile was on the face of the tiger."

I've been bughunting for what feels like a long, long time. And I've run into
lots of people who were sure they could cut deals or control or threaten
the Bugs. And they all ended up empty shells for another being's will by the
end.

Make of that what you will.]<<<<<
-- The Mighty Quinn <01:42:46/05-22-60>
Message no. 33
From: Brion David Wauters bdw8@****.ucc.nau.edu
Subject: Theory
Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 12:24:32 -0700 (MST)
***** PRIVATE: Mighty Quinn
>>>>>[You know Quinn, that clip looks awfully
familiar....]<<<<<
-- irish <12:24:55/05-25-60>
Message no. 34
From: Paul J. Adam Shadowtk@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Theory
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:47:02 +0100
*****PRIVATE: Irish
>>>>>[Yeah, well, the real footage is even better, but it's classified out
the kazoo. We're learning some good stuff, though, the bughunter squads
should find their lives a lot longer from it.]<<<<<
-- The Mighty Quinn <23:46:54/06-26-60>
Message no. 35
From: Ed Matuskey <MATUSKEY@***.EDU>
Subject: Theory
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 13:52:19 -0700
>>>>[I don't think those things that captured Mr. Yoshida were space-
conjured spirits. For one thing, as has been discussed very thoroughly at
a technical board one node over, such a thing is supposed to be impossible.
For another, everything has an aura (except nega mages), spirits more so
than most: all that they're made of is astral energy: no astral plane, no
spirits. Finally: have you ever heard of a spirit resort to using
guns? Anyway, the mana bolt sent at them would have had some effect, even
if they resisted. This group didn't even flinch. No, I'd hold out for some
group of techno-somethings, rather than something really wierd magic-wise.
My reasons aren't very concrete, I know, but then, I'm a decker, not a
mage (thank god).]<<<<
-Highlander
-Highlander (13:52:32/4-14-54)
Message no. 36
From: Jaimie Nicholson <jaimie.nicholson@********.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Subject: Theory
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:15:33 +1200
*****PRIVATE: Ronin, Troglobyte
>>>>>[You think that Combine guy Squatter was arguing with had anything to
do with it? On the one hand, I guess that'd be pretty stupid, wasting a guy
after he accuses you of wasting guys like him, it'd add to the chance of
Squatter being believed. But on the other hand, Combine could well play the
"that'd be pretty stupid" card, and say it must have been someone else...
We need more info. Anyone know why Squatter was saying nasty things about
agricultural implements? Maybe the Rat would. Damn it, where is the bastard
rodent?]<<<<<
-- Ice <18:07:21/09-24-58>

*****PRIVATE: Ronin, Ice
>>>>>[Squatter mentioned something to me about it when I asked him during a
talk we were having a couple of days before the attack... he said that it
was something to do with some government conspiracy and a spook called
"Lunch". I dismissed it as part of his occasional lunatic babbling, and let
it drop. There's a good chance that he took a dislike to this Combine for
no good reason at all, other than that the poor Johnson's shadonym just
happened to fit in with his fragged up paranoia.]<<<<<
-- Troglobyte <20:49:41/09-24-58>
Message no. 37
From: Jaimie Nicholson <jaimie.nicholson@********.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: Theory
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:04:45 +1200
*****PRIVATE: Troglobyte, Ice
>>>>>[Any chance you heard "Lunch" when Squatter said
"Lynch"? If so, there
is a UCAS spook by that name, vaguely active in the Seattle shadows. From
what you say, maybe he would want to know about Squatter's death.]<<<<<
-- Ronin <22:30:44/09-25-58>

*****PRIVATE: Ronin, Ice
>>>>>[Yeah, that could have been it. Lunch would be a pretty silly name
wouldn't it. Speaking of which, I'm hungry.]<<<<<
-- Troglobyte <23:08:12/09-25-58>

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