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Message no. 1
From: Brian Angliss <angliss@*****.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: What the frag is your problem?
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:47:58 -0600
>>>>>[Abbadon (I did get the spelling right, right?), what the frag is
your problem? Why do you hate Haven so much? Are the concepts of honor
and personal responsiblity so alien that they need to be destroyed? Does
the idea that people can change the world through peace as well, or
better, than through violence appall you or something? And do you have
something against people living together in peace, learning to respect
each other, and generally improving thier lot in life by earning an
education?

Personally, I think that violence occasionally has its place, especially
when things need to be accomplished quickly, but even I see where Pat is
coming from.

I've got a lot of friends here at Haven, and I even call it home.
Literally, because I live here. Pat protected me from a corporate strike
squad at one point. But now you want it destroyed? Ain't gonna happen,
pal. It's got me and my friends here, it's got more magically active
people than most of the corps in Seattle, and I've seen what a couple of
dozen free spirits can do to keep the peace when Pat asks them to.

I don't think this'll make you think twice about attacking Haven and
trying to damage to it in any way you can, but think about this - Haven
helps metahumans, yes, but it has helped far more humans get off the
streets and out of gangs than it has metahumans - there's just a lot more
humans in general - so if you start pounding Haven, you start pounding
your own people.

Of course, seeing the logic of that argument would require a logical mind,
which I'm pretty convinced you are seriously lacking.]<<<<<
-- Little Dragon <21:29:43/04-22-59>

>>>>>[Actually, I doubt Abbadon is irrational or stupid - he's planned
things far too well.

However, I do wonder if he can really understand just why so many people
are willing to risk thier lives to save a place like this - a mere
orphanage and grade/middle/high school, and a not-for-profit corp.

Abbadon, I'll explain. Val is a man who so strongly believes in
non-violence that people are willing to kill and die to be sure that he
never has to fight again. Some of us truly believe that he's seen a lot
more violence than even you are causing now - I personally wouldn't be
surprised if he has been responsible, and I mean personally responsible,
for thousands of deaths before he became a pacifist. I don't know,
really, but I've been told that there's more truth to that than there is
untruth.

Val has been pulling kids off the streets of Seattle and giving them a
chance to become something better than joygirls, BTL addicts, petty
thiefs, etc, for 30-odd years now. Most of them have come back to help
him continue doing the same thing. When I was a joygirl for the Ancients,
Val earned the gangs respect by never being provoked into fighting - the
crew would pound the drek out of him with chains and rusty pipes, batter
him with magic, and generally do horrible drek to him, but he always came
back, trying to convince the Ancients to treat thier joygirls and boys
better, trying to get us to allow him to mediate in turf wars rather than
us going and killing everything that moved, and he never changed his tune,
no matter how badly he was pounded. If the beatings got too bad, he'd
raise some magical defenses to protect himself, but he never got angry,
never sent another, more friendly gang after us, never felt an urge to
reap vengeance on us.

We protect Val because without Val, there is no Haven. And without Haven,
Val would probably wither away. And we protect Haven because we believe
in it. Some of us had had truly rotten lives that might have turned out a
lot different if we had had the same opportunities that hundreds and even
thousands of kids have had now at Haven.

And you simply will not be allowed to harm it.]<<<<<
-- Foxey Roxey <21:49:39/04-22-59>
Message no. 2
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: What the frag is your problem?
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:19:16 +0100
>>>>>[Yes Little Dragon, you got the spelling right, congratulations,
consider yourself awarded a gold star for attentiveness. I don't hate
Haven, it is not logical to hate a location or set of buildings, that's
like saying you hate the Whitehouse, rather than the corrupt individuals
that occupy it. I hate the occupants of Haven, whether they be
metahuman or human collaborators, not Haven itself. The concept of
Haven is admirable, the application detestable. It conceals those that
would destroy the earth and humankind, it entertains and protects those
that would visit destruction upon us all, and it feeds the lie that
humankind and metahuman can live in peace, hiding the truth that the
presence of metahumanity is the death knell for humankind.

The destruction of Haven is a task that is possibly beyond my abilities,
but the destruction of the illusion of safety that abides in this
location is not. I shall prove to the world and metahumanity that no
matter the strength of such enclaves, and the power of opposition within
such enclaves they /are assailable, they can be countered by those with
true hearts and belief in their cause. No longer shall such
abominations exist amongst the abodes of humanity under the illusion of
such protection that they cannot be assailed.


Whether or not you believe I have a logical mind is immaterial, your
individual opinion is of no import to me, nor to those that follow the
truth of the darkness to come. The illusion of invulnerability of such
emplacements must be destroyed in the eyes of the weak willed and
doubtful. Haven will be assailed, it will have it's much vaunted shell
broken, there will be deaths and destruction where previously none has
existed. Proof positive that the determination of humankind will
overcome the arcane machinations of those who would seek to destroy
humankind.]<<<<<
-- Abbadon <15:04:12/04-23-59>


>>>>>[Foxey, I wonder if you can really understand just why so many
people are prepared to risk their lives attacking a place like that.
Haven is not a mere orphanage and school, it is an emplacement of arcane
powers and nightmarish meddling from metahumanity, it is a false front
concealing a corruption that many are unable to comprehend. If it were
simply an orphanage and school, it would have no need of the powers
protecting it, nor the involvement of spirits and souls of the deceased
to guard it's borders. Those who would see the destruction of
everything humankind has achieved use Haven as a shield to cover the
machinations of their kind within it's supposedly peaceful boundries.
Yet how many other schools, colleges, universities and places of care
and education require such powerful magics to protect and hide it? No
Foxey, there is more to Haven that the innocent facade that is presented
to the general media, and you would be well advised to look beyond this
propoganda and see beneath the surface of such a Haven of Power. There
is more than innocence at work here - if it were just innocence, then it
would not warrant my attention.

The history and previous existence of the one who has created Haven is
not entirely the end of the matter. Consider your own statements Foxey,
a man allegedly responsible for the deaths of thousands has created an
enclave of power, protected by magical arts and people of arcana,
surrounded by creatures of the otherworld. Is this truly a Haven of
peace, or a location of potential abomination, to be feared because of
it's apparent need for such powerful protections. Has Haven ever been
assailed before? Have any chosen to look beneath the surface of this
creation of a man who lives in the memories of deaths beyond
comprehension. Can the soul of a person responsible for such attrocity
truly embrace peace and hope? I say No. If that were the case, then
the employment of such powerful and dangerous materials as those that
surround and cover Haven would not be necessary. No other school can
boast such power as protection, no other orphanage boasts such arcane
knowledge or presence. Open your eyes Foxey, look beneath the facade
presented by Haven, and see the horror that writhes beneath it's
surface.


Without Val, there is no Haven, but there will still be an orphanage,
there will still be a school, as there are in other areas of Seattle,
other areas that do not employ the powers that the creator of Haven has
seen fit to lay about his home. Powers that are unecessary and
unwarranted, powers that are not present in any other similarity on the
American continent, except within the confines of Tairngire. Explain
why Haven so closely resembles establishments of magical research and
learning in Tairngire, NanOg, Azania as opposed to other establishments
that /are/ open and innocent?


To protect a belief in an abomination for the sake of a single man is
illocal and corrupt. To protect a belief for the benefit of thousands
is an admirable thing. But Haven protects those who are corrupt, it
teaches death and destruction, it teaches methods of death and
destruction, many of those who hide within it's confines deal in death
and destruction, and as such they are corruption within the confines of
that which people see as perfect. Haven is nought more than a home to
death, and as such it must be eradicated so that something honest and
humble can replace the potential for disaster that now resides on that
location. Haven must be cleansed, and such it shall be.]<<<<<
-- Abbadon <15:19:12/04-23-59>
Message no. 3
From: Karl Low <kwil@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: What the frag is your problem?
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:49:35 -0600
>>>>>[Omigod! Of course! I just figured it out.

Haven takes in all the downtrodden and makes life better for them. Haven has
big-time security. People get a "new start" in Haven. The Valentine person
doesn't fight, no matter what, but can use magic.

Anybody remember a place by the name of the Universal Brotherhood?

Haven's a bug hole! It makes sense!

Why the security otherwise? Why all the weird magic and stuff around there?

It's a freaking hive!

This Valentine's probably just a drone even, that's why it won't fight. The
Queen just tells it to take a beating cause it knows its the best way to get
more people in there!]<<<<<
-- Knee-Jerk <15:43:04/04-23-59>
Message no. 4
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: What the frag is your problem?
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 00:52:43 +0100
>>>>>[Yes Knee-Jerk it is a Haven. It is a home to creatures that do
not belong on this plane, or this world, but the abominations hidden
within are not mere bugs. They are something that is more powerful,
more insidious, and far more fearful than an insect hive.


No orphanage or school requires the amount of magic that surrounds
Haven, no charitable organisation requires the strength of power and
force of arms that guards Haven. Nothing in the confines of Seattle,
except possibly the Aztechnology pyramid reeks so strongly of hidden
secrets and protects those secrets with powers beyond the ability of
mortals. Has no one ever wondered why Haven has such powerful magics
protecting it? Have none here - so called enquiring minds never
wondered /why/ it is so important to oppress the natural defensive and
agressive emotions of people when they enter Haven? It is so that they
will be unable to resist that which is done to them within it's
confines. Not because the founder believes in non-violence. That is an
excuse, a facade, a lie.


Suffer the belief in this so called refuge if you will, but there are
those in the world who understand the implications and meaning behind
the magicks covering the entity known as Haven. There are those who are
aware of the creatures and nightmares that hide behind this wall of
arcane power. And there are those planted amongst you who defend Haven,
who sing it's praises, who claim it is an innocent refuge of the
innocent and downtrodden. It is not. All the people who sing the
praises of Haven are those that have been within it's walls and suffered
the alterations brought upon their minds by the illusions maintained
within. They are either owned or controlled by he who runs Haven, he
who hides behind the magicks present that form the walls of Haven. It
is time to expose the place for what it is.]<<<<<
-- Abbadon <00:52:23/04-24-59
Message no. 5
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: What the frag is your problem?
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:18:56 -0400
>>>>>[Knee-Jerk, I've been to Haven. I've shared fine liquor with
Valentine. I've seen nearly every part of Haven, both with these eyes
built by modern science and that of astral perception.

Haven is not a hive.

I've been to hives, I've fought the "bugs," I've even been to Chicago when
it was still a Containment Zone, I've been fighting the "bugs" for years now.

Haven is not a hive.

Simple as that. Valentine and I don't agree on many things and in other
circumstances we might even be enemies, but pipe up again and I'll have a
decker burn your deck. Dare show up in person and you'll be eating through
a straw for the next few months.]<<<<<
-- the Dark Stranger <16:33:04/04-23-59>
Message no. 6
From: Jaimie Nicholson <jaimie.nicholson@********.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: What the frag is your problem?
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:49:40 +1200
>>>>>[You're as bad as Abbadon, DS. You'll threaten people with violence
for disagreeing with you. You'd deny them the opportunity to speak, to have
opinions. How do those of us who've never been there know it's not a hive?
I know a guy who teaches there, and knowing him I seriously doubt it's a
hive, but it could be.]<<<<<
-- ThunderStone <18:49:08/04-23-59>
Message no. 7
From: Karl Low <kwil@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: What the frag is your problem?
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:08:30 -0600
>>>>>[If you've been there, how do I know you're not a bug too? Abbaddon
was
right! Everybody who's been there is a bug! It's gonna be
Chic%.{{s[^h++5<interrupt at source/connection terminated>
Message no. 8
From: Brian Angliss <angliss@*****.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: Re: What the frag is your problem?
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:41:43 -0600
>>>>>[So, if you hate the occupants of Haven, then you hate me. Well,
that=
really sucks big hairy donkey balls. How the frag can Haven conceal people=
who would destroy the earth? Val teaches environmentalism too, which is=
remarkably rare in these times. And I have no fragging clue how teaching=
peace could possibly destroy humanity or the earth. I'm more inclinded to=
see how being violent all the time could do the same, thought. I'm human,=
by the way.

I don't know what you're smoking, mister, but "power of opposition" within=
Haven? Haven's only power is passive - everything else has been given. =
There's no weapons in Haven, there's no violence allowed, and the only=
power that Val has over us living here is the power to throw us out if we=
break the rules. Hell, I've nearly been thrown out several times, and that=
idea doesn't sound at all appealing to me. And education only works on=
people who are conscious enough to listen and want to learn. I kind of=
wonder if I'm just trying to educated the unconscious....

I don't know, Abbadon, but I'm pretty sure that there are good people in the=
world, and there are bad people in the world. Good or bad is independant=
of what you believe as a person - if you're a good church-goer but you=
still kill people and repent on Sunday, you're still a rotten person. And=
mister, you're rotten to the core. I'll probably dance in the street when=
your body is found, preferably in lots of little peices scattered over a=
100 block area.]<<<<<
-- Little Dragon <09:12:24/04-24-59>

>>>>>[Corruption? Huh? I'm human, and I see no threat from Haven or from=
Val. So I guess that means I'm too fraggin stupid to comprehend the=
so-called corruption of Haven and metahumanity. I'm a houngan too, and so=
I know a lot about magic and curses and killing people really unpleasantly=
- it's something of a speciality. And the only complaint I have with Haven=
is that it's a lot harder for me to cast harmful magic and spells there,=
but a LOT easier to cast healing and beneficial spells. You should have=
some mage in your employ try healing one of your people here - that person=
will heal so fast and well they won't know what to do with the rest of the=
2 months of recovery that were just avoided completely.

You're probably right about it not being a pure orphanage, though. Val and=
his permanent faculty are all in a magical group, and there's a big ritual=
room that only they are allowed into. Well, one outsider was allowed in=
once, but it wasn't me. It's because of those rituals that Haven has more=
magic than anywhere else outside the Pyramid, and those rituals are=
responsible for making magic easier to cast here too. I'm curious, but=
because I know Val, I'm not worried that he's trying to end the world like=
you are. Of course, hearing this, you'll probably go off the deep end and=
claim, like some paranoid delusional, that I just confirmed your ideas.

Can Val really know peace? Sure can. Dad used to be an arms dealer, one of=
the best in the world. He dealt in the items that dealt death to thousands=
every day. But he turned his back on that and just became a normal MD to=
try and save lives again. I wonder if you can't truly understand the value=
of life until you've taken some. And if my Dad, who has to harm and=
occasionally kill to live, can have a change of heart, so can Val.

Haven has been attacked before, but the attackers were repelled, with=
minimum casualties, and no deaths. Only a couple of students have ever=
been harmed, and until you came along, only one student had ever been=
killed. Killing kids makes you fraggin dispicable, man. Even _I_ don't do=
that, and I'm a pretty rotten person sometimes.

If you want to, Val would probably let you in to observe the classes. You=
could plant members inside for a while, and all they'd find is that Val=
teaches self-reliance, personal responsibility and honor, and to make up=
your own mind. If your men are hurt in an attack, they will be brought=
into Haven and given medical care there just as the victims of that attack=
will, and NO-ONE will be allowed to harm your men, nor will they be turned=
over to Lone Star until they are well enough to travel. Does this really=
sound like the wishes of a man who teaches death?

If it does, you need a reality check bad.]<<<<<
-- Diana, Mistress of the Night <09:32:17:04-24-59>

>>>>>[Corruption? Nightmarish meddling? "More to the innocent
facade?" If=
Val can't ever embrace peace, then neither can you, and you're unredeemable=
.

Oh, I'll open my eyes allright. Oh, but I'm sorry, I'm an elf with a REALLY=
FRAGGIN SHORT TEMPER, so I guess it doesn't matter, does it, because I'm=
PART of the fraggin problem, not part of your oh-so-high-and-lofty-murder-p=
regnent- women-and-kids-with-hooks-and-HMGs-and-rocket-attacks solution.

I have a daughter, fragger, who lives at Haven. She's elven too, you know. =
She's barely old enough to have real memories, and you're fraggin TELLING=
ME SHE DESERVES TO DIE FOR IT? You just lost your right to live.

And when Mercury finds you're hiding place, I'll mail you the burned remains=
of every terrorist I melt down into slag. They'll be so well cooked you=
won't be able to find enough DNA to make a positive identification. Their=
teeth will be molten piles of carbon and calcium.

Mercury, I know you watch this board - find Abbadon. I'll pay you >>>a=
fraggin astronomical sum of money<<< now, twice as much on delivery, and=
twice as much again after I've reduced him to his component atoms.]<<<<<
-- Foxey Roxey <09:42:12/04-24-59>


>>>>>[(whistle) That'll keep me going for a year..... Ok, sure, I'll use=
all the skills at my disposal.]<<<<<
-- Mercury <hardware failure - T/D unreadable>
Message no. 9
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: What the frag is your problem?
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:59:32 -0400
>>>>>[I'm as bad as Abbadon, Thunderstone? To my knowledge, I've never
killed children, or ordered their deaths. To my knowledge, I've never
killed innocents, or ordered their deaths.

I'm guilty of many things Thunderstone, enough to earn death penalties in
about 8 nations, several times over. I don't claim to be an angel, unlike
so many sanctimonious shadowfucks and holier-than-thou wannabes. But I
don't kill innocents.

I have my Code and I live by it. It keeps me alive. It allows me to
complete those contracts that I *chose* to accept. It allows me to sleep
at night and not awake screaming from the nightmares every night.

Knee-Jerk isn't dead. I never threatened to kill him. But his deck is now
nothing more than smoldering pile of silicon and plastics. I wasn't in the
mood to let him continue his mind-dead rantings. If you've got an opinion,
fine. But psychotic ramblings and an opinion are two very different
things. Don't like it? Again, fine. Just don't frag with me. Real
simple. Your right to an opinion ends where my datastream starts.

You want to see that Haven isn't a hive? Simple. Walk on up, see for
yourself. Their doors are always open. And while you're there, ask
Valentine if I'm the same as Abbadon.]<<<<<
-- the Dark Stranger <09:49:08/04-24-59>
Message no. 10
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: What the frag is your problem?
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 00:05:20 +0100
>>>>>[ Knee-Jerk, you obviously don't have much experience with bugs. Let
me assure you: Haven is not a hive. We checked, but probably your paranoia
will kick in and you woun't believe us. Well, check out a hive's structure
- both solitary /invae/ and real 'hive-breeders' are more centralistic
organized, concentrated around a queen, or in early stages, around a
shaman. /Invae/ are bred to their purpose, not trained as Haven does.

Yeah - an organization like Haven is dangerous. But _not_ in the way
Abbadon tries to make us believe, but here we see an example how your
society can exist, where humans of all metatypes can work together, and
basically build a society without the need for governments. Yeah -
dangerous indeed. This example may spread... the only reason I still
believe there's hope for humans. ]<<<<<
-- Canis <14:24:38/04-26-59>

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